From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

And I'm joined by my co-host this hour, Eric Grody.

Our connection this hour was made in California when a playwright named Vicky Ramirez made a discovery that she said blew her mind.

Ramirez is Native American, a Tuscarora, part of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

And this particular trip to California was for play.

And she was visiting a region that was experiencing a drought.

And yet she learned that the reservation she was visiting had a water bottling plant, a commercial facility.

Here's part of what she said in a recent interview with the dramaturg, Courtney Elkin Mohler, quote, I'm offended that bottled water has become a necessity for many native communities.

On six Nations, where my mother is from, there used to be clean rivers, natural wells and plenty of creeks, but now so many people on the rez have to drink bottled water because the natural water sources are no longer safe.

Corporations did that.

And now those same corporations are coming back to sell bottled water to my people.

End quote.

That story was the seed of what became Ramirez's play called Pure Native, a fictional work with roots in reality.

The audience is challenged to see shades of gray, even if they recoil at the idea of native communities relying on bottled water.

If a native person wants to profit off such an enterprise, is that a natural reaction to centuries of oppression?

If exploitation is going to happen one way or another, is it fair for native communities or to want or even demand some of the spoils, or does that cross a line?

Who defines what selling out really even means?

Jeeva theater will welcome audiences for Pure Native for a run that begins this coming Tuesday night or Wednesday.

Two for Tax Day, April 5th.

There you go.

but first, we're glad to welcome the playwright Vicky Ramirez to connections.

Yeah.

Hello.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

Vicky Ramirez, and it's great to have you.

And, to Eric's point about the run, the run starts.

This is where I get confused.

This is your theater world here.

So the official opening is the 19th of April.

But previews is what they're called.

These previews.

And in some places, like on Broadway, for example, and there'll be weeks and sometimes months of previews where the audience, as Vicky said earlier, you know, let's you know what?

It doesn't like.

And then you do that show and then work on a slightly tweaked version of that show for the next performance.

So we've got Vicky here.

Welcome to Ansley Jemison.

who is cultural liaison at Canadian State Historic Site, cultural consultant on pure native Ansley.

Welcome back.

Nice to see you in studio.

Likewise, Ivan.

Good to see you and welcome to Erin de mercy.

Erin is director of connectivity for Jeeva Theater.

Erin, thank you for being here as well.

Thank you.

Have been great to be here.

So I think I'm just going to leave for an hour.

I'll come back here.

This is now I'm Eric.

Tell listeners a little bit more about your theater background, because I'm really excited to hear how your brain works as you approach shows like this year, you've been writing about theater for years now.

So, yeah, I mean, before I moved to Rochester, I worked in New York City and wrote about theater for a bunch of places The Village Voice, New York Magazine, and finally The New York Times, where I was for six years before coming up here.

I teach at Syracuse University and run an arts journalism graduate program, but also still write about Jeeva, including when there was a son house show a few years ago and we wrote about it.

so I'm very eager to hear both, from Vicky side and also from the institutional level, how, how Jeeva has decided to, to, to dive into this work.

But I guess my first question would be for Vicky.

when you are writing a play, my guess is you're trying to entertain an audience.

I think you're also trying to teach an audience.

Educate an audience?

I think you're also trying.

My guess is that you're also trying to make a case or, you know, hope to explain, persuade on some level.

How do you juggle all of those things?

It's a lot to try to do in the space of an hour and a half.

It's, well, when I start writing, usually I it's almost like I hear voices in my head.

So I start roughly.

But for me, it's really about the impact of like when you think of, when you think of a concern, an issue, something that crops up on, on your radar, that it's like, I want to address this.

When I start writing, I don't focus on how do I explain or teach.

I try to think and understand how what is that impact?

What is that impact on the people that I want to write about?

What is that impact upon their lifestyle, who they are.

And so I'm always very character driven when I get started, even though I do write issue based theater.

But it's it's always starting with the character because I think issues are more palatable when they're from an intimate level.

When you explore it through the lens of somebody.

Sure.

And from what my experience is, you know, issue based plays can sometimes get a bad rap.

But, I mean, Ibsen wrote issue plays, right?

He's more approximate issue.

I mean, I mean, there's a long lineage of great, great work being done in that space.

But as you said, the characters kind of point you in the direction that you want to tell the story.

Yes, exactly.

for instance, in Pure Native, I thought when I first heard about the bottled water factory on the Morongo Reservation, it really just was something that confused me.

From a Hood and Shawnee standpoint, you don't use your resources in that manner.

You don't market it like that.

You know, you're supposed to take what you need, leave the rest for people who also will need.

And, I heard about all the resentment that was building in the townspeople around, and I thought, well, how would that go?

And it's like, well, maybe it's somebody who wants to reclaim themselves to the community.

They, you know, the community's in crisis.

And so why don't you know?

So how do they like, why would they take something this big back?

And he's working in the food industry, the corporate food industry, and, you know, bottled water is all over the place.

And it's a huge industry and it's on fire.

And and it's just one of those things.

Well, we have a lot of water.

Maybe this is something we can, you know, and there's, you know, there's a lot of history about indigenous folks losing their water sources to all sorts of different circumstances.

but and so because I've, I haven't seen the place because it hasn't open yet, but I've read it.

So just for a little context for the listeners, as this play is set on a Haudenosaunee reservation and, the characters are all originally from the reservation, but there is a bit of a prodigal son.

There's a there's a character who comes back and brings this notion or this idea.

Correct?

Yeah.

He, Brewster is somebody who left the reservation under a cloud.

He, is somebody who had addiction issues and was the catalyst for, an elder.

having an accident.

And so he left, while still sort of in the throes of that struggle.

And when it's been a decade and he's cleaned himself up, he's found a way to live in the world.

Because when I write, that's especially for an indigenous person trying to live in the contemporary world, trying to live with one foot in, you know, the the foot in the canoe, foot in the boat type issue.

It's it's always difficult.

It's always difficult.

And it's like, so how do we navigate that?

But Brewster's case in Brewster's case, he thrived.

He got extremely successful.

And he found a way to pull himself out of his addiction.

So he's like, why can't this work for my people?

Whereas meanwhile, just the very fact of his success seems to set some of the other characters on edge as much as what he the idea that he's bringing.

Absolutely.

It's it's that that success that that, you know, consumerism, the capitalism, the whole idea that money is going to solve everything for us.

Again, it's very much against what we believe traditionally.

Traditionally, it's really about being in community, being amongst.

But your support system that that's what you know, you should drive to support community and share your knowledge and help build community, not build a fortune for yourself individually.

so there's there's that element of it as well.

And he comes back bringing this individual success, all the trappings.

we have some fun with, some of his little, you know, signs of success and just the juxtaposition of that on the reservation, you know, having an Apple Watch where there's kind of spotty cell service, you know, he's like, yeah, but he quickly makes the case.

Look, someone's about to make a lot of money off of this.

And wouldn't it be nice if just for once, we were among those people who reap the benefits?

Exactly, exactly.

It's like I'm offering us a seat at the table.

But he does make the point that you can say no.

Now they're still going to come.

And, so for Brewster, he's he's really trying to involve the community in this.

But the the whole thing is with the community.

It's like, that may be true, but we're still sacrificing our values and our identity and who we are to make this deal.

So.

And that's kind of what the boarding schools did, you know, they were like, you'll be fine if you cut off all your hair, if you speak English, if you come out and get a job and you know you'll be a person, whereas if you do your practices, you're not you're not one of us, you know?

So so let me ask Aaron Aaron de mercy, who is the, director of connectivity at UVA.

you know, any given year, dozens if not hundreds of plays crossed the desk of the artistic director and the team.

What plays do we want to take on?

What reasons?

You know, the budget, the number of actors, a million different criteria.

can you talk a little bit about how pure native got into the building in the first place and the decisions that brought it to us now?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I think one of the most special things about this production is that it is the fruit of a partnership that has been growing for a long time.

I'm fairly new to Jeeva, but I'm very excited to join the curation team and learn more about their process.

But I think this play in particular grew out of a suggestion from Delana Studi, who was one of our artists in residence, and was in the production of and so We walked, which she also created.

and then we had a her show called The Mush Hole that we helped out with, I believe last year.

And so really centering and wanting to be a place where indigenous stories are told and indigenous folks feel welcome and feel seen and valued and represented accurately and respectfully.

is a huge part of the the goals of GVA as an institution.

And so we're really trying to be, worthy of that partnership and continue to learn and grow, but also to invite indigenous people into the space and make it feel like it's part of our shared community resources.

so two of the things that really have come through and my time working with, the Haudenosaunee community at my previous position at the museum and Science Center and also at Jeeva, are gratitude and reciprocity.

Those are just two things that come back again and again, and I think that reciprocity and that sort of culture of abundance and generosity and also expressing gratitude often and thoroughly and ongoing, are really important things that we're trying to cultivate at GVA also.

and so I'm super lucky that we've been able to build this amazing team of artists and consultants and community members that are really excited to be a part of this production and really looking to, do more work with Jeeva in the future.

and Jeeva kind of serving as a launchpad for those stories and a venue, for the artists to have their vision be accurately brought to life.

so we're, we're super stoked and also stoked for future projects.

Can I ask, since you bring up reciprocity, that would be a good, kick over to to Anjali Jemison.

can you say a little bit about what the role of a cultural liaison is and means and does with a theater like Jeeva that has done a lot of good work traditionally, historically, more toward, a white centered audience to, you know, have the embody these ideas of gratitude and reciprocity.

Sure.

Absolutely.

I think that, you know, the one positive and plus and what kind of made this position, a little more seamless was the fact that Vicky is of the community, she's of the Haudenosaunee people.

So she already has sort of an insider's, you know, perspective in terms of what it means to be a Haudenosaunee person.

And that representation is important when we're, you know, broadcasting out to the outside world and letting people understand what it means to be ordinary, any person.

I mean, we are nestled in the, you know, traditional homelands of the Onondaga people, the Hudson Shawnee people, my people, the Seneca nation, you know, and it's interesting that, you know, representation is very much still a mystery to a lot of people.

They don't really quite understand, you know, what it is to be a native person or an indigenous person or who we are even as Haudenosaunee people, and how much we've played a role and influence in, you know, the formation of the United States and, you know, the the governance that's now, you know, present.

And it's been largely kind of misrepresented in a lot of ways.

And it's been kind of, you know, taken out of context by what Hollywood has produced.

You know, Hollywood, in a lot of ways, has created a lot of tropes, you know, for example.

And so we're trying to erase some of those things and becoming our authentic selves and having the opportunity to really kind of capture that, that conversation and really kind of share with people what it really means to be a Haudenosaunee person.

So for me, you know, it was more a dialog for for Vicki and I to just kind of talk about, like, what?

What do we think about this, you know, and where are we going with some of these characters and things like that, maybe, you know, in terms of maybe how when language is being used on stage and things like that, how we would pronounce things in the language properly and things.

So it's just kind of being a little bit more, you know, mindful of like just make sure that we're getting it accurately correct.

Because again, we know that being in our homelands here, we're going to have a, you know, some guests from our communities and things like that, audience members from the community.

And we want to make sure that we get it right to honor them.

You know, I think that's the biggest piece.

We want to make sure that we're honoring the community and make sure that we're telling Vicki's story, you know, as accurately as possible, but also but just really helping the rest of the world have a better understanding of who we are as Haudenosaunee people.

And if I could just ask Ansley to kind of elaborate a little bit, you talk about Hollywood tropes, which are, I mean, in some ways well-worn, but we've also seen a number of streaming series shows in recent years, attempting to tell sometimes native stories, sometimes stories on reservations, with more native casting, writing, representation.

Are there good examples that you see lately?

Is there anything you point to and say no, that's a good show or that that I like?

Yeah, I mean, I think what's kind of in the zeitgeist today, I think, is Reservation Dogs, for example.

I mean, I think that's kind of the more the popular, you know, series that's out there tonight, today.

And how is it in your eyes?

I think there's a lot of really good, positive things that come out of that show.

And I think that it is a little bit kind of gray in terms of it tends to be a little bit more pan Indian, I guess you would say, because it doesn't really specifically kind of lean or kind of speak towards one group we're in this with, in this example we're talking about in the Shawnee people, you know, and so it is important for us to have this opportunity to have this platform to make sure that we are represented correctly.

I think.

So that's a little bit of that.

But in terms of the tropes, I mean, I think that a lot of, really difficult conversations were kind of, you know, talked about in kind of express and shared out, there were different stories and sort of, kind of historical stories, but also mythologies and things like that that were presented on Reservation Dogs, which really kind of tapped into like a lot of the audience and a lot of the people also kind of connected with even some of the vernacular that was even used on that show.

So it was certainly interesting to see that, it was great to see indigenous representation.

I know it was sort of a number of different, you know, communities and people that were represented on that show.

And, we're very proud of that effort, I think.

And, you know, and we want to, you know, continue to see those opportunities happen.

And, you know, I'm thinking about the ways that this kind of a show would be obviously central to a lot of the stories of native communities that have been exploited, that have had treaties broken.

Last hour.

We talked about the Erie Canal, which is gets a lot of celebration.

But, for native communities, it broke.

What did you say in one instance, Oneida Nation, I think, had 27 or 29 treaties, just that one nation alone that were just outlined, flouted and violated.

Sure.

Slice of the land.

So these stories happen so routinely, but anybody from any background can probably relate to wherever you grew up.

Is there a story in which a big corporation came to town and and maybe it was the end of the small stories in your community.

Maybe there was questions about, do we want this?

And then there were maybe questions on, well, if it's come in any way, should we like, should we get a hand in this, can we should we profit from it?

And what I appreciate and I'd love to hear, as the playwright, you talk about this theme and then maybe from the critical, I'd love to hear what Eric has to say.

but I think there's an importance of not making this a caricature.

Your characters are real people, and whatever your personal view is, Vicky, whatever your view is, whether it's I'm with Brewster, if it's happening, it's happening.

And we've got let's get our hands in it versus the I don't care if it's happening, it doesn't represent our values.

And we should not be part of it.

Whatever your personal views are, it would be easy to make, well, this is the villain and this is the good guy.

And the audience is going to be sort of talked down to as opposed to seeing a real human discussion about hard issues that I think very acutely have faced native communities, but a lot of communities can can relate to that.

So can you talk about creating real, texture among the characters and the ideas?

Well, for me, I, I always operate, especially if it's a hard initially story, but really for me, it's, I don't believe in antagonists, protagonists.

I believe everybody is a protagonist.

Everybody is coming in like it's all their story coming together.

And, my approach is trying to understand the side that I am especially not necessarily in agreement with.

Trying to empathize.

Like I always try to shoot from a empathy level to understand what would be appealing for this particular character in their circumstance, and try to try to understand it, to put it out there.

And I do want the conversations to be real conversations.

I want the arguments to be real arguments.

I want people to say, well, that's fair.

You know, that's fair.

I disagree with it, but that's I understand why you came to that conclusion.

And and then I put it up against the other character, and maybe I have more empathy with that character, but I it's really for me, it's always about the discussion because with our people, it is always about the discussion.

There's no, you know, we're the whole new shiny people.

But we are six nations.

We're all self-governed where all have different reservations.

We all have different ways of operating different, you know, you know, you could go to one reservation and things are very rigid about something, but you go to another one and it's it's much looser.

There is that's that's who we are.

It's kind of that's why we always say, you know, we are the oldest operating democracy consistently because we are very much the voice, like the people's voice is to be heard.

And we function in that way like we we there's no arbitrary decisions, no rigid sort of protocols.

I mean, yeah, and I'm curious about so Ainsley mentioned the sort of the pan Indian nature of reservation dogs, for example, compared to this work, which deals with things like governance, for example, in a way that you you learn a lot, or at least I as a, as a non-native, you know, a consumer of it, you know, learn a lot about how this community is going to make this decision and, and the steps that come into play.

for that, how do you thread that needle to in order to basically, like, take me by the hand and help me make sure I understand just the stakes and how those stakes are going to play out.

While I'm not just rehashing stuff that that, that a more traditional indigenous audience would already know all about, that I again, I think it's by approaching it from a level of impact.

When you demonstrate the impact of a question or the impact of a discussion on the character, what what what that means from a personal level, from an emotional level, from I mean, there is some intellectual like there is some discourse in there.

I try to cut down on the exposition, but again, I'm Haudenosaunee.

That's probably not going to happen.

But.

you know, you try to have fun, you try to, but you also try to get that really core emotion in there and, and, and understanding that while this might work for this character because of where they are in their circumstance, in their life, but it's not going to work for this one because they're cut off from that, potential ality, that possibility.

It's, it's it's represents a lot, different things.

you see that in, one of the couples in the play where, bottled water factory is very exciting for the one partner, whereas the other partner is horrified at the idea.

And it's just that circumstance, that family dealing with the fact of this proposition or this, you know, sort of Damocles that is dangling over, the rest.

yeah.

So I try to that's how I try to do it.

And I hope that I get the points in there that folks can follow along, but I yeah, I think I think everybody too, though, can empathize with something that doesn't quite blend in with your belief system.

Or it seems like something as a culture change that could really I think the, you know, specificity always helps because the more specific you get, it seems like the more universal the writing is.

And Eric, you mentioned that, you know, there's there are playwrights who absolutely write about issues or maybe points of view while also giving you rich characters and stories, but sometimes that may be perceived as a harder sell for the.

Is that am I hearing that correctly?

Is there this idea that audience audiences sometimes just want to be entertained and don't want to feel like they have to learn something?

Well, yeah.

I mean, ultimately you want to be entertained and no one wants to be lectured to.

And if and if a play, you can do this more or less artfully.

And if you and if it if you just if the characters kind of fade away and it becomes about the the drumming in of a certain message, audiences are going to tune that, in my opinion, audiences are going to tune that out.

However, there can be a lot of stealth message messaging and kind of, you know, conveying these by characters who you've come to appreciate and like on some level, maybe you're or you know and understand why they would have that idea and then see those ideas shift over time.

No, I mean, you can you can pack a lot of that sort of info in.

And I think the audiences are kind of none the wiser.

Or they do know on some level, but they don't mind.

Yeah.

You know, you agree with that.

I do agree with that.

I mean, we that's we we have a lot of comedy in the play on purpose.

And Ainsley is, is nodding over there.

So for you as not not only a cultural liaison but someone who's, you know, you've podcast everybody's a critic these days.

How how successful is the playwright in achieving some of those goals in your mind?

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the pieces that I think it's a very well-written play, I think that, you know, the fact that the cast is not of Haudenosaunee background, I mean, they are native, you know, folks, but they have different sort of, you know, backgrounds that they're coming from.

And there's also sort of different customs and practices and protocols that they're all coming from.

And the fact that they're able to kind of relate to the story.

You know, again, I think that there's some disguised learning in here as you're kind of mentioning, Eric, in terms of how, you know, there's some disguised nuance as well in terms of a little bit of the information that's kind of being shared with you about the complexity of Haudenosaunee, you know, communities, governance.

we have effective systems.

We have heard of very chief systems.

And it's not really just one specific sort of situation that's happening here.

And Vicky's done an artful and masterful way of kind of blending all of that and kind of making it seamless in a way that you can kind of relate and still kind of see the challenge, see the issues and things like that, and yet still be respectful and mindful of the fact that, like, we are still, you know, kind of a people of a proud people that we want to be respectful of our culture and be able to put our best foot forward in terms of how we want to represent ourselves.

So this is going to be a really clumsy question.

Okay.

Are there either moments in this show or moments in your life where you go, oh, that's such a Tuscarora mindset, or that's such a Seneca mindset that sounds so much more Mohawk.

Yeah.

Is do those distinctions among the six nations happen?

It does happen.

I think, you know, I think there are different situational, issues and challenges that are faced on each of our communities really, you know, and, you know, I think in particular, I mean, this one is, you know, based on Six Nations loosely, I guess, and in Six Nations and in Canada in particular, there's almost 85 to 90% of the indigenous communities in Canada are under boil water alerts.

You know, so there's a real problem with water.

There's water issues that are there that are real.

But also when you look back, standing Rock just kind of came up not too long ago.

A number of years ago, wherever else.

And it was just reported that that pipeline which became active, you know, recently and it already had a leak, you know, so this whole idea and this notion of indigenous peoples trying to be these water protectors and trying to have these conversations is now again becoming like a reality.

And that's something that's a real thing.

And, you know, we're we're Jeeva situated, we're right next to the Genesee River.

I don't think anybody would want to take a cup of water out of that, out of the Genesee River to take a sip, right.

I think that's probably right.

I got to say, I'm.

I was relieved when Vicki's reaction to my question, you were sort of nodding knowingly with it when I said, would you say that that was so Tuscarora or that was so Seneca.

I will say that.

So Seneca or so Mohawk.

So Mohawk.

It's what's the difference?

it's just, like we have these identities within our nation.

The, the Mohawks and the Seneca.

Those are the keepers of the, you know, the keepers of the western door, the Seneca keepers, the eastern door, the of.

They're the warrior nations, the spokespeople.

and and, I always have fun with my Mohawk relatives, because there's a lot of Mohawks in my neighborhood, and I'm Tuscarora, and we're noted for being the ones who joined late.

So that that's kind of the, you know, that's.

I just so I have a lot of fun with my family.

And this dynamic actually plays out somewhat explicitly in the play because among the it's five characters.

Correct.

And among them are some Tuscarora and some Mohawk.

And you can actually see some of these character traits play out, or at least be commented believed to play out.

Yeah.

good, good.

after our only break of the hour, we're going to come back and I got a couple of listener comments.

One that I think Erin de mercy, can respond to, and we'll continue the conversation as we get ready for the opening.

there's, what's what's it called, the pre-show run.

What is that called again?

Previews.

Previews are coming up starting on Tuesday and the official run starting on April 19th.

They would love to see you at Jiva for, they you got a lot of opportunity to see pure native.

And the playwright is with us, Vicky Ramirez.

Ansley Jemison is with us.

Erin de mercy from Jeeva is with us.

And Eric Grody and I will be right back to continue the conversation on connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next connections, I'm joined by my colleagues from classical 91.5, Mona Secreto salami, Steve Johnson.

They're talking about what's happening at the Kennedy Center and what's happening in the art scene more broadly, with the president putting himself at the head of the board of the Kennedy Center and saying he wants to get wokeness off stage and other acts on stage.

We'll talk about how the arts have been affected Monday.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from MCPs presenting a talk about visual storytelling with document Terry and Lynn Novick, whose credits include the series the U.S. and the Holocaust.

She hosted Beth Adams Moderates April 24th at noon on the Brighton campus.

Monroe Sky Edu, this is connections.

Eric Brody is enjoying hosting alongside someone who really appreciates theater, but isn't nearly as schooled as him as he is.

Is this hard for you sitting next to me?

Because I don't even know what a preview is?

No, but I'm just glad to get a chance to catch up on some emails and Candy crush.

Yeah, no.

We're having a great conversation this hour and Jeeva is bringing pure native and Vicky Ramirez, the playwright is here.

and and so let's hit a couple of points from listeners here.

Michael, who has written about his own, native roots, says, I want to thank Jeeva for showing this important work.

I've been a big Jeeva fan since the spring of 1974, when we saw head of gabber for a class assignment in an English class at Saint John Fisher College.

That is from Michael.

And then another listener asking if there is concern that, if Jeeva is concerned that this will be viewed as a native show for native audiences and let me start with Aaron de Murcia, I'll ask all of our guests to kind of weigh in on that.

But Aaron is director of connectivity for Jeeva Theater.

What would you say to that, that question there also, I think it's a great question and a great sort of launch pad to express some of those philosophical shifts and organizational shifts that are happening at Jeeva and many other institutions in the area.

if you enjoy living on this land or you enjoy drinking water, or you enjoy food that is grown in this area, then you have indigenous folks to thank for all of those things.

And there's a lot to be learned by anyone and everyone.

I think one of the things that has meant the most to me in my time working with Odin or Shani, folks in the community, is that this is our community.

It's all shared.

Our resources are shared, our stories are shared, our food is shared.

our love of the nature that we all get to live around and our wonderful water sources that we need to protect are shared.

and there's just so much joy and fulfillment from those relationships, from learning about art and culture and music and all the different ways that people tell their stories.

there's a lot to be learned.

And as we said, like with Vicki's work, it's a very human play.

It's about humans and their struggles that are multifaceted and the more specific and culturally relevant it is, the more universal the lessons are.

You know, the civics lessons, the interpersonal lessons, and the lessons of just having gratitude for everything that's come before you and making sure that you're responsible with what you receive from the universe.

that's something that we can all learn from.

Vicki, what do you think?

What would you say to that emailer?

I would say thank you for asking.

but it's it's I'm hoping everybody comes because it's really like Erin said, I intended everybody to I like I was thinking of indigenous people, how they would respond to the story, but I mean, it's to me it's a story that appeals to us all.

It's again, we all know what it's like to have somebody in your family who's messed up and left, and maybe you're lucky enough to have that person who's recovered, but they're still not the same person that you grew up with.

it's that question of people in your family disagreeing ferociously with what you believe, but still trying to keep that connection going, you know, still trying to remember that community connection in that family connection that this is somebody we love.

and we disagree.

And disagreeing is okay because that's how we solve things.

I think that's again, a universal, and I mean, I used to get an Irish rep all the time.

I loved Irish rep, but I can tell you, I'm not Irish.

And I got those stories.

So I'm hoping I'm hoping that folks will come out and give us a try and and see if they can see themselves on stage, because I did intend for the Haudenosaunee people to see themselves, but I'm hoping everybody can.

Hensleigh, what do you think?

Yeah, I mean, shameless plug.

Quickly.

Sorry.

I've been, on my podcast, Original People's Podcast.

We've actually wrestled with this conversation a little bit in terms of, you know, indigenous art, native art, you know, and how is it defined and why is it defined and why is it important to define it as such?

And why can't it just be art?

You know, why can't just be a play as opposed to a native play?

You know, it's unique, it's interesting.

It's exciting for Haudenosaunee people to see representation there.

But we also want the outside world to equally value and equally respect the work that Vicky has put forward here.

You know?

And so that's something that we want to kind of, you know, and not release too much skirt around, but also be sort of, you know, upfront about the fact that, like, hey, here's some native representation, we can do this stuff as well.

And it's equally compelling stories.

And again, as she said, you want to build to find yourself and see yourself in these human characters.

I just think the email is well intended, and it's a fair question in terms of what has to be considered.

However, there's a little bit of setting the world from the, if it's a play, it's a play.

But if it's written by a black, playwright, well, it might be a black show.

And if it's written by a native, now it's a native show.

Whereas like, the default is, you know, white people, right?

Right.

I mean, like, there's no reason why death of a salesman wouldn't be a white play, but by that, I mean, nobody calls a salesman a white play.

You know what it is?

Yes it is.

Well, even right now, like, I mean, Denzel Washington's playing Othello, you know, on Broadway right now, you know, and it's like, is he normally that character that everybody would think about?

I mean, when, you know, thinking about that, that character, you know.

And so I think it's important and it's great that Vicky is a renowned artist, I think.

And she's a, you know, she's a successful playwright.

And for us to kind of get over that little bit of that hurdle as to like, oh, that's a that's a native play that's just for them, you know, like, no, it's for everybody.

We want everybody to kind of understand.

And again, the issue at hand again is water and that's what my reference to standing Rock was, is that this is something that we can all relate to.

This is something that we're all made up of.

This is something that's a relative and a relationship that we have that we have to kind of value and think about and consider again, like, why is it that we walk into an airport now and you pay $6 for a bottle of water, you know, like who has the right to that?

So you're asking some bigger questions really kind of geopolitically as far as like, you know, who has the rights to be able to commodify resources.

Yeah.

But I'm sure where I grew up in Cleveland, Cuyahoga has it have, was that the river that was on fire at one point?

And that's what I'm saying.

So and and now listeners might be getting sick of hearing me invoke this, but because we've talked about it in the last few weeks.

But so, we were talking, my son and I were talking, and I showed him a picture of the city I grew up in, and I said, tell me where the water is.

And he's like, there's water.

Like, where's the water?

And it was orange.

Was orange.

Wow.

It was an aerial shot.

I mean, it's like from the 70s and I think the river caught fire in the 60s.

But, Cuyahoga, is that a native term that a native sure sounds like.

Yeah, I sure, I assume so again, I don't I but if it was amazing watching growing up in a city with a river was on fire and people were just taking it for granted, and, I hope now the water is cleaner, that river is cleaner.

It doesn't burn anymore.

But these issues certainly persist.

And in California, where Vicky kind of get inspiration for pure native, it's going to even get more acute as we see water issues, right?

I mean, it's going to get harder and more challenging as we see drought.

We see the climate changing.

Yeah.

And it's it's one of the characters in the play says, oh, this is Great Lakes region, as in many lakes and many rivers.

But all those lakes and rivers aren't necessarily drinkable.

No.

When when I was growing up, we would hike out in the woods, you know, take some water from the creek.

Didn't even think about it twice.

But, now I hear, like there isn't really any drinkable outside water sources like native like not not only indigenous, just straight across the US.

But if you're hiking, you need to carry water purification pills.

You can't.

It's a meat.

It's not an option.

And that's terrifying to me.

Like, that's, let me grab a phone call from Bill, in Rochester.

Hey, Bill.

Go ahead.

Hi, guys.

yeah, I'm, my wife and I have been, Jeeva patrons for the last 20 years or thereabouts, and, we've noticed attendance seems to have, lagged over the last five, six years, give or take.

And, and I know, some of our friends that we go to Jeeva with have been critical of, of the selection of plays, over the last several years.

And so I was wondering if Jeeva has, has heard, that, that, criticism and if attendance is as strong now as it was maybe ten years ago.

Bill, first of all, I think everyone will want to weigh in in one way or another.

It's a it's a fair question.

And before I even let Jeeva respond, just in general, in the theater world, Bill is framing the last five years.

That's the pandemic and habits.

I mean, we're in a post-pandemic world now, but habits have not fully bounced back to 2019 anyway.

I, I'm talking across the board.

No, but live theater is absolutely I don't have the hard numbers in front of me.

But I mean, Jeeva, the former managing director of Jeeva, told me at one point that it had it not been for PvP and some of the government funding, I mean, the regional theater movement in America would be more of it.

I mean, there would be no regional theaters left if not for that.

Now, how many?

You know, a lot of theaters skewed toward older audiences.

In some cases, it's fairly tight quarters.

I mean, you know, that we have seen some people get out of the habit and not get back into the habit of going to the theater.

The question is, can and how do you replace those audiences with newer, younger audiences?

and there are a lot of layers to that, but I yeah.

And I don't want to suggest to bill the layers is the point.

It's not just one thing.

And I know that every different theater, every different companies got to make choices on what are we putting on stage, what is the community want?

How do we bring new and fresh things?

How do we give them a little bit of the, you know, the comfort food?

It's a combination.

Bill.

Bill was wondering if Jeeva has seen it, what you make of it, you know, how do you contextual.

And I would just also say you've also gotten out of the model of, as you said, the comfort food there used to be a much more of a theater, a subscription mentality, which was, we know you're going to get the six shows upfront, and that allows us to give you a little Neil Simon, a little Agatha Christie, a little musical or whatever.

And then also kind of the, the, the not comfort food.

and people aren't really buying subscriptions as much anymore.

They're buying tickets ala carte, which shifts things a little bit.

But I would be curious to hear Aaron's thoughts.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's this is a great question is definitely one that we are putting in a lot of thought to, as Scott was saying, recovery from the pandemic has been very hard for theaters and just sort of leisure spaces in general, where we gather in person, there's a lot of recovery that still needs to be done.

I know as a person who's worked in the museum field and is now here at GVA, when I think about the future, I think about the city that we live in and the region that we live in, and that region is very diverse.

And if we want to continue to survive, we need to reflect and attract and bond with our community as it is, which includes representing and inviting all those different segments of our community to see the theater as a place where they can hang out and have fun, they can learn something, they can create and play and bond with each other, no matter what their background is.

And so I think that's a really important part of our strategy going forward is to become worthy of that inclusion and to become a safe place for all different kinds of people to hang out.

And we're so grateful for our subscribers and our patrons.

We also have some really exciting programs to kind of reduce some barriers to attendance and barriers to entry for folks who might otherwise not ever get to come, or might not feel like it's a space for them.

so we're we're really excited to move in that direction.

and I think, like we were saying before, when we when we tell these cultural stories, there's something in it for everyone.

and there will always be criticism.

There will always be some people who don't love every single show.

but just like everyone was saying, we do try to pick a mix of shows that are purely entertaining and fun romps.

and we do have some of those in our upcoming season, of course.

and we have some shows that are really, in our opinion, are really important to tell those stories and really important, moments to make space for, for those, representation of those cultures in those stories.

so we hope they'll check out our upcoming season, which was just announced last week.

and see what we have to offer.

But there really is something for everyone in there.

and we hope that we will continue to bring in those new generations and those existing generations of folks who maybe just didn't think that theater was for them, or that they would get anything out of it and try to, really be worthy of their time and their attention.

Vicky, what do you think?

it's it's funny because this is a conversation I feel like I've been having for the past five years with, a lot of my playwright buddies, and everybody is doom and gloom.

It's like, is it the death of theater?

It's like, no, it's not the death of theater.

It's the growing pains.

It's the the morphing pains.

It's like a chrysalis, you know, you you start it this way, and you because the subscription, the subscription model we were talking about that, that it really served really well for a long time.

But for many years before that, thousands.

If we go into the deep history of theater, that model didn't exist and theater still survived.

And I just think it's it's it's a change.

The pandemic has made us all change in many different respects.

and it's definitely impacting all of the arts communities that way.

yeah.

And it certainly has affect.

You're right.

I mean, the pandemic changed some of our habits in terms of, am I going to stream instead of going to the movie theater?

Am I going to go to a play?

Am I going to stay home more often?

Do I wear pajama pants 90% of my days?

I mean, like the pandemic has affected a lot of different things.

But it's not just that.

And again, this is there's no data behind what I'm about to say.

But I heard a 13 year old, not mine, not my 13 year old, but a 13 year old recently said, let's say it was a sleepover for a birthday party.

And let's say I said, you guys might just put on a movie.

And the response was, nobody our age watches movies.

That takes forever, right?

Like that.

And it was like, what?

Wow.

Now, I don't know that that's a full representation of that generation, but we are seeing these generations now.

I'm going to bridge generation.

Gen X is bridge like.

I grew up without internet.

I grew up without a cell phone, and I'm glad I did.

But kids no longer I mean, like, their attention is getting really divided and fought for and fragmented and and everyone wants younger audiences.

Theaters want younger audiences.

I wants younger audiences.

We do, I do, by the way.

I mean, like, I want to grow all parts of the audience, including the young part of the audience.

Yeah.

Your podcast, I mean, everybody.

So are you worried that as time goes on, that habit of going to the theater is getting lost at all?

a little bit, yeah.

I mean, I understand what you're saying completely.

And again, it's a question of we have to look at theater itself as a form.

what are the make it a little more elastic.

Make it make there's some sort of flexibility.

I think we could get them out of the house to come out, but will we be able to get them to sit like my place?

Two hours?

That sounds like forever, I'm sure, for the young folks.

but it's there's, you know, there's other formats of theater, immersive theater that, you know, you go through a building or you go through a site and you experience things in real time, and you're part of the story that I think would appeal to them, especially if they're gamers.

There's playwright friends of mine who are exploring storytelling through gaming.

they're they're exploring.

How do I adapt this to creating a complete story with it in a way that still satisfies me, my requirements as an artist, but will play to these folks who we have to give a stimulus every two minutes.

and of course, the short play format, you know, finding ways to do that and like quick, quick vignettes.

So there's it's just a case of, you know, putting on our, our stretchy clothes and trying to find a way to make it work.

Yeah.

go ahead there.

I had a representation, question when Angela mentioned, Othello, which currently Denzel Washington is on Broadway as a black actor playing a moorish general.

you know, not that long ago, it wasn't necessarily a given that it would be a black actor playing Othello in the red and, Otello, the opera that's still very much up in the air.

I mean, I think a lot of those fights have been fought and won, in my opinion, about, you know, different ethnicities being played on stage by other actors.

You're seeing it now play up.

Can, you know gay or trans characters?

Can or should they be played by straight performers?

You see it with narrow neurodiverse characters.

Should Claire Danes be able to play Temple Grandin?

You know, that kind of thing.

And I did wonder about as you slice that pie.

So we mentioned that that this is a completely native acting company, but not necessarily with from corresponding tribes or nations.

I mean, there are different, pan Indian casting.

One thing that caught my eye when I went through the program was, I believe it was there was a native lighting designer, a native costume designer, a native sound designer.

what does that bring to the equation?

To have a native design team working on the show?

well, it's really exciting for me.

I just just thrilled with the idea again.

It's also, it's elevating the indigenous theater form, you know, where we're all working together on a project.

there is, I mean, pan indigenous is something that happens.

You know, people think, oh, such and such is, Oh, well, how many buffalo do your people.

And it's like, we don't do buffaloes.

We're the canoe group, you know, it's, but, it's it's so we try to avoid it, but at the same time, there is a commonality.

There is, threads where we, you know, we can take time to, like we did, did a little gratitude circle before we got started for tech, you know, just to bring everybody together and make sure we're all on the same page, what we're doing on stage.

And just like in in a play, when you're directing a play, bringing the actors together to ensure that they're all on the same page about the world they're inhabiting, because sometimes some actors are inhabiting another world when it's, you know, the rest of the companies over here.

So it's always good to have us come together.

But it's also just a reinforcement.

It's just a way to say, hey, it's happening.

And it's I mean, for the youth, it's like, this is somewhere where you're welcome.

You are welcome in the theater.

You are welcome to be able to create.

And you can and I mean, the folks we have have some great credits as well.

Like, it's not I don't want to say that phrase, but it's the it's it's not affirmative action.

These are people who have, substantial credits under their belt with with places like the Goodman and, you know, working in New York and things like that.

So it was really, really exciting to be able to bring everyone together like that.

Now, this is where I have to apologize, because I'm looking at the clock on this hour flew by and we got less than a minute.

Aaron, what is coming up later this month?

I know there's a free event that you want to make sure the community knows about.

Yes, absolutely.

So in addition to the run of the show for Pure Native, we also have a special event happening on Monday, April 28th at 6 p.m.. We will have a, sort of an open house party at GVA.

that is for everybody, free and open to the public.

We'll have indigenous food from Turtle Island Homestead, a social dance that you can participate in with Bill Krauss and the Allegheny River dancers tabling from some community groups and a live art demonstration as well.

So we really hope you'll join us for that.

It is family friendly.

If you can't make it to the show or if you want to do something.

In addition, we'd love to see you there.

What's the date again?

Monday, April 28th, 6 to 8 p.m.. That's coming up later this month, and previews start Tuesday.

The official opening night, April 19th for Pure Native.

I don't work for you if I don't do PR for you, but I just like talking to them about shows that they're doing.

And I love having Eric Roddy pilot in the ship with me.

This has been really fun and you're very generous to come in and co-host.

Oh, this has been a blast.

Thanks for having me Eric.

A great job.

And I want to thank Vicky Ramirez, the playwright of Pure Native, for telling us about the story and your process.

And good luck with the run.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having us.

Ansley Jemison, your podcast is what The Original People's Podcast.

But I also want to give a shout out to the Friends of Gannon again for this partnership with Jeeva Theater as well.

You know where to find Gannon again and and Lee and the whole team there.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Have a great having you and Erin Mercy, Director of Connectivity for Jeeva Theater.

Thank you for being here as well.

Thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure from the whole team at connections.

Thank you for listening.

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