MEMBERS OF THE INDIANA GENERAL ASSEMBLY FACE ONE TASK THAT CAN'T BE AVOIDED OR DEFERRED.

UNLESS THEY WANT STATE GOVERNMENT TO SHUT DOWN - LEGISLATORS HAVE TO CRAFT A TWO-YEAR BUDGET.

IN THEORY, THE PROCESS UNFOLDS OVER MONTHS WITH INPUT FROM STAKEHOLDERS AND TAXPAYERS DURING A SERIES OF FORMAL PUBLIC HEARINGS.

USUALLY, IN PRACTICE, THOUGH, THE FINAL BUDGET IS HAMMERED OUT IN THE SESSION'S CLOSING HOURS, MOSTLY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, BY A HOUSE-SENATE CONFERENCE COMMITTEE.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON THIS WEEK'S SHOW, WE'LL EXPLORE ONE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY'S MOST STRUCTURED - YET MOST ARCANE - PROCESSES.

DON'T GO AWAY.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS - FROM THE JOINING ME TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL THE HUBBUB OVER DOLLARS AND CENTS ARE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TIM BROWN OF CRAWFORDSVILLE, CHAIRMAN OF THE BUDGET-WRITING HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE...DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE GREG PORTER OF INDIANAPOLIS, THE RANKING MINORITY MEMBER ON THAT COMMITTEE REPUBLICAN SENATOR ERIC BASSLER OF WASHINGTON, THE RANKING MEMBER OF THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE AND DEMOCRATIC SENATOR EDDIE MELTON OF GARY, THE RANKING MINORITY MEMBER OF THAT PANEL.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT BY DEFINITION MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC, IT HAS TO APPEN, STARTS AND STOPS AT THE APPEN, STARTS AND STOPS AT THE BUDGET.

LET ME START TIM BROWN WITH YOU, YOU'RE A PHYSICIAN.

LET'S START WITH FREE MEDICAL ADVICE.

>> WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH THIS EXTRA COVID RELIEF MONEY.

5.8 BILLION, OF WHICH 3 BILLION OR SO WOULD GO TO THE STATE, ANOTHER 200 MILLION TO STATE'S CAPITAL PROJECTS, PLAN AND SO FORTH, THE REST TO LOCAL AND COUNTY GOVERNMENTS.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY?

>> I THINK IT'S OPPORTUNITY FOR THE STATE OF INDIANA.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT INDIANA IS WE'RE NUMBER ONE IN THE MIDWEST, AND SO WE'VE BEEN VERY RESILIENT THROUGH THIS RECESSION AND PANDEMIC AND ABLE TO BOUNCE BACK VERY, VERY WELL.

AND SO WE LOOK AT THIS FEDERAL MONEY AS ONE-TIME SPENDING.

IS THERE INFRASTRUCTURE WE NEED TO SPEND IT ON, WHICH ARE HIGHWAYS, OR IS IT WATER AND SEWER INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE NEED TO SPEND IT ON SO THAT WE CAN HELP EVERY COMMUNITY AND CITIZEN THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE STATE.

>> OF COURSE A LOT OF THE THINGS ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, THEY'RE GOING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF WITH THE NEXT STIMULUS PACKAGE.

YOU GUYS AREN'T GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A BUDGET FOR THE NEXT DECADE AT THE RATE -- WHO SHOULD MAKE THE DECISION?

>> IT WILL BE A JOINT DECISION.

SOME OF THE MONEY WON'T COME IN UNTIL AFTER WE ARE GONE FROM SESSION AT THE END OF APRIL.

AND THEN IT WILL BE AN EVALUATION, A RECOMMENDATION THROUGH THE BUDGET COMMITTEE, A SMALL BUDGET COMMITTEE, OF WHICH REPRESENTED PORTER AND SENATOR MELTON ARE MEMBERS OF, AND WE'LL HAVE A REVIEW PROCESS AND KIND OF A YES OR NO SAY ON THAT.

>> DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU, GREG PORTER?

IN TERMS OF WHAT HE WANTS TO SPEND THE MONEY ON AND HOW IT SHOULD BE DIVVIED UP, WHO CONTROLS HOW IT IS DIVVIED UP.

>> THAT'S THE POINT.

ON THE BUDGET COMMITTEE, AND WE VOTE, BUT THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO WIN, REGARDS TO THE BUDGET COMMITTEE BECAUSE THEY'RE PEOPLE FOR THE MOST PART, WITH A COUPLE PLAYERS, A COUPLE ALTERNATE PLAYERS.

I THINK WITH THE $3 BILLION COMING INTO THE STATE, YOU'RE RIGHT, I JUST HOPE THAT WE DON'T CONTINUE TO BANK IT AND CONTINUE TO BUILD A SURPLUS THAT WE HAVE.

I THINK IT SHOULD GO, YES, FOR WATER, AND INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT I THINK IT ALSO SHOULD GO TO CAPITAL NEEDS IN REGARDS TO -- INFRASTRUCTURE FOR INDIVIDUALS, HUMAN -- INFRASTRUCTURE OF CAPITAL OF INDIVIDUALS IN THAT COMMUNITY.

>> FOCUSED PRIMARILY ON COVID.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE ISSUES WERE COVID RELATED.

>> RIGHT.

>> WERE TAXED, NOT IN A FISCAL SENSE, BUT BURDENED BY THIS.

>> EXACTLY.

BECAUSE WE TRY TO DO TWO, THREE PIECES AMENDMENTS TO TAKE CARE OF SMALL BUSINESSES, NOT CORPORATIONS.

BUT SMALL BUSINESSES.

WE ALSO TRY AND LOOK AT INDIVIDUALS AND MINORITIES HEALTH DISPARITIES, AND ISSUES LIKE THAT.

WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

YES, THEY ARE ONE-TIME DOLLARS.

I'VE SEEN US TAKE THAT AND THEY KIND OF STRETCH OUT.

WITH US BEING A, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, TRIPLE A BONDING COMMUNITY, AND ALL THE PEOPLE COMING IN, ET CETERA, WE SHOULD DO MORE FOR PEOPLE.

>> ERIC BASSLER, THE HOUSE BUDGET AS IT SHOWED UP ON YOUR DOOR STEP DID HAVE FUNDING FOR STUDENTS WHO WERE PERHAPS HAD FALLEN BEHIND, NEEDED REMEDIATION BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

MONEY FOR, THERE WAS A GRANT PROGRAM FOR SMALL BUSINESSES.

SO THERE WERE THESE -- ADDED UP PROBABLY BETWEEN TWO AND $300 MILLION, I WOULD GUESS.

IF WITH THIS FEDERAL MONEY IS IT JUST A MATTER OF SWAPPING OUT THE FEDERAL MONEY FOR THOSE STATE DOLLARS TO FREE THEM UP, OR IS THIS A SITUATION WHERE NOW YOU HAVE LATITUDE TO DO MORE IN THAT AREA OF RELIEF?

>> I THINK THERE'S A FEW THINGS GOING ON, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION AND LEARNING LOSS.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO USE FEDERAL DOLLARS WHEN POSSIBLE TO TRY TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES, AND THEN BACK THOSE UP IF WE STILL NEED IT WITH SOME STATE DOLLARS.

OTHERWISE WE CAN USE THOSE STATE DOLLARS ON OTHER PRIORITIES THAT THE STATE WOULD HAVE.

ONE THING WE DO NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF WHEN WE LOOK AT THESE COVID RELIEF DOLLARS, AS REPRESENTATIVE PORTER POINTED OUT, THEY'RE ONE-TIME DOLLARS, SO IT IS NOT LIKE WE CAN BUILD IN ONGOING COSTS RELATED TO THESE FUNDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE.

I THINK INFRASTRUCTURE MAKES GOOD SENSE.

WHEN I WAS ON THE CITY COUNCIL DOWN IN WASHINGTON, WE TALKED ABOUT SEWER ISSUES, AND WATER WORKS ISSUES, THERE'S A LOT OF BURIED PIPE THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF INDIANA, 75 YEARS OLD, 50 YEARS OLD, 100 YEARS OLD, THERE COULD BE OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THINGS THERE OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WITH THOSE DOLLARS WHICH WOULD BE HELPFUL TO COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF INDIANA.

>> EDDIE MELTON, DO YOU THINK THERE IS A FIGHT OVER HOW TO SPEND THESE DOLLARS, OR THESE KIND OF GENTLEMEN'S AND LADIES' AGREEMENT, HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO WITH IT?

>> LET ME AGREE WITH EVERYONE THUS FAR, THAT THIS IS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY, THESE DOLLARS CAN BE TRANSFORMATIONAL FOR COMMUNITIES AND FOR THE STATE OF INDIANA.

WHEN WE LOOK AT INVESTING BOTH IN HUMAN CAPITAL, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS FROM AN INFRASTRUCTURE PERSPECTIVE, LET'S TAKE THE HUMAN CAPITAL PERSPECTIVE.

WE CAN LOOK AT REALLY REVAMPING AND INNOVATING OUR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT IN K-12.

KNOWING THAT THESE DOLLARS ARE NOT SUSTAINABLE, AND THESE ARE ONE-TIME, WE CAN CLOSE THAT LEARNING GAP FOR A LOT OF COMMUNITIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING.

WE CAN GET MORE COMPETITIVE INDIVIDUALS PREPARED FOR THE WORKFORCE THAT'S LOOKING TO GROW THE STATE OF INDIANA.

WE KNOW WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY WHERE WE'VE ALREADY MADE SOME GREAT INVESTMENTS THROUGH INFRASTRUCTURE IN 2017, BUT THIS IS UNIQUE TIME AND OPPORTUNITY WITH THE FEDERAL DOLLARS.

I THINK WE SHOULD APPROACH OUR BUDGET KNOWING WE HAVE THESE FUNDS COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE, BUT STILL KNOWING OUR OBLIGATION AS A STATE TO CRAFT A BUDGET THAT'S GOING TO ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF HOOSIERS.

>> SO THE -- I THINK IT'S, WHAT, 130, 150, WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT MILLIONS.

A MILLION THERE, A MILLION THERE.

YOU WOULD SPEND, THERE IS THAT MUCH NOW SET ASIDE AT LEAST IN THE HOUSE BUDGET FOR REMEDIATION FOR STUDENTS.

IS THAT JUST A STARTING POINT?

YOU WANT TO GO A LOT FURTHER THAN THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT OUR DEMAND FOR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT, AS WELL.

I HAVE TO HIGHLIGHT THAT, BECAUSE AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ATTRACTING BUSINESSES, CONTINUING TO ATTRACT BUSINESSES, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A READY WORKFORCE IN EVERY PART OF THE STATE.

AND THAT A GETTING FOLKS UP TO SPEED FROM AN INNOVATIVE PERSPECTIVE, I THINK INDIANA CAN DO A MUCH BETTER JOB IN TERMS OF GETTING FOLKS WORK-READY.

BUT THE K-12 ISSUE, THERE WERE ALREADY ISSUES BEFORE COVID-19.

>> OF COURSE, THE BUDGET ALREADY HAS THE REGIONAL GRANTS, TOO.

>> EXACTLY.

AND 150, $160 MILLION THAT'S FINE FINE FOR LEARNING LOSS.

LET US NOT FORGET THERE WAS ALREADY A GAP IN REGARDS TO STUDENTS, MINORITY AND POOR THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF INDIANA.

THIS IS KIND OF A CATCH-UP HELPING GIVE A BOOST FOR THOSE STUDENTS THAT HAD THAT LEARNING LOSS OVER THE LAST YEAR.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO MAKE UP SOME OF THAT LOSS THAT WAS THERE PRIOR TO THAT ALSO.

BECAUSE IF YOU REMEMBER, TEN YEARS AGO, WE TALKED ABOUT IN EDUCATION, ADDRESSING THAT GAP AND MOVING IT UP, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE NOT FORGET WHAT WE DIDN'T HAVE SO WE CAN BRING EVERYBODY INTO LINE.

>> I WOULD SAY, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THIS YEAR IN THE PANDEMIC AND THE LEARNING LOSS THERE, VERY REAL.

YOU TALK TO EVERY EDUCATOR, AND KIDS ARE FALLING BEHIND.

I THINK THAT THE LEARNING GAINS THAT WE'VE HAD, WE WERE RANKED IN THE BOTTOM THIRD OF THE NATION IN NATIONAL ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT SCORES, NOW WE'RE IN THE TOP TEN.

SO THIS IS WHERE PARENTS HAVE GOT INVOLVED IN THEIR KIDS AND HELP THEM ACHIEVE A GREAT INCREASE IN ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT OVER THE LAST DECADE.

>> HOW MUCH -- SOME WOULD ARGUE AND HAVE ARGUED THAT PART OF THE WAY TO GET IN ADDITION TO HAVING GOOD TESTING AND GOOD TEST PREP IS TEACHERS WHO KNOW HOW TO PREPARE STUDENTS, AND OF COURSE WE'VE ALL TALKED AT LENGTH ABOUT THE TEACHER SHORTAGE OR THE PROSPECT OF A LOOMING TEACHER SHORTAGE AND WHAT MANY WOULD ARGUE IS UNDERPAYMENT ON AVERAGE OF STATE'S TEACHERS, YET THIS BUDGET DOESN'T REALLY ADDRESS THAT DESPITE A GUBERNATORIAL PANEL THAT SPENT, WHAT, 18 MONTHS LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE?

WHY NOT, WITH ALL THIS EXTRA MONEY THROW DOLLARS -- AND I KNOW YOU DON'T DIRECTLY PAY TEACHERS.

WE'LL STIPULATE TO THAT.

BUT THERE ARE WAYS YOU CAN KIND OF PUT THAT POT OF MONEY OUT THERE AND APPLY PUBLIC PRESSURE.

WHY NOT DO THAT?

>> THERE ARE.

THERE IS OVER $380 MILLION THAT GO TO K-12 EDUCATION OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS.

AND IT'S A LOCAL DECISION.

I MEAN, YOU TALK TO LOCAL TEACHERS, AND I ASK THEM TO A PERSON, HAVE YOU GONE TO THE SCHOOL BOARD MEETING?

WELL, NO, WHY SHOULD WE?

BECAUSE IT'S THE SCHOOL BOARD THAT DETERMINES WHAT YOUR PAY S AND ASK THEM TO RAISE YOUR BASE SALARY, AND GET IT HIGHER GOING UP.

>> SOME STATES, IT'S DONE AT STATE LEVEL.

>> HERE IT'S DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

YOUR POINT IS WELL-TAKEN.

TEACHING IS GOING TO CHANGE.

THE HYBRID CLASSES THAT WE HAVE NOW THAT ARE COMPUTER AND IN-PERSON BASED ARE GOING TO BE THE FUTURE.

PARENTS ARE GOING TO WANT A HYBRID OFFERED TO THEIR CHILDREN GOING FORWARD.

THERE IS GOING TO BE AN INCREASED DEMAND FOR THIS DIFFERENT KIND OF LEARNING.

SO WHAT'S IS GOING TO BE LIKE TO BE A TEACHER GOING FORWARD?

>> ERIC BASSLER, YOU KNEW I WAS COMING TO YOU, BECAUSE IN ADDITION TO THE TITLE I GAVE YOU AT THE BEGINNING IN THE INTRODUCTION, YOU'RE ALSO THE CHAIRMAN, OF COURSE, OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE THAT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH SCHOOL FUNDING WITHIN THE APPROPRIATIONS -- SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE.

$380 MILLION ROUGHLY, GIVE OR TAKE, IN K-$12, THAT IS WHAT IS IN THE HOUSE PLAN THAT CAME TO YOU.

BUT A THIRD OF THAT, AND I GUESS THIS IS WHERE THE CONTROVERSY PROBABLY ARISES WOULD BE DESIGNATED FOR NOT TRADITIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS BUT FOR A NEW ASSISTANCE PROGRAM, SCHOLARSHIP ASSISTANCE PROGRAM FOR STUDENTS, SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAM, INCLUDING PAROCHIAL SCHOOL VOUCHERS THAT WOULD ALLOW FAMILY LEARNING FOR ABOUT 170,000 A YEAR TO QUALIFY FOR THIS, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ASSISTANCE.

IS THAT THE WAY TO SPEND THESE DOLLARS?

>> THERE IS A LOT TO UNPACK.

WE COULD SPEND THE ENTIRE PROGRAM TALKING ABOUT K-12 EDUCATION AND FUNDING.

LAST WEEK WE HAD A MEETING K-12 SUBCOMMITTEE HAD A MEETING, AND WE ENDED UP HAVING, AS A MATTER OF FACT SENATOR MELTON WAS ON THE COMMITTEE ALSO.

MAYBE WE HAD SOMEWHERE AROUND 60 PEOPLE THAT CAME IN AND TESTIFIED.

WE HAD PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDUCATIONAL SITUATIONS.

EVERYTHING FROM HOME SCHOOLERS THAT TESTIFIED, PEOPLE THAT SEND THEIR KIDS TO CHARTER SCHOOLS, TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS, TRADITIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOLS, VIRTUAL SCHOOLS.

I GUESS A COUPLE TAKE-AWAYS THAT I HAD, I GUESS TWO MAIN TAKE-AWAYS, ONE WAS THAT ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDUCATION PROGRAMS WE HAVE IN THE STATE OF INDIANA ARE REALLY DOING GREAT THINGS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND REALLY HELPING OUR CHILDREN OUT.

ANOTHER TAKE-AWAY WAS WE STILL HAVE WORK TO DO.

WE STILL SEND TOO MANY KIDS TO EITHER A TWO-YEAR COLLEGE OR FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE THAT NEED REMEDIATION.

THERE IS STILL WORK TO BE DONE.

WE HAVE MADE GREAT PROGRESS, BUT WE STILL NEED TO CONTINUE TO PUSH FORWARD.

AND THEN THE OTHER TAKE-AWAY WAS, AND WE'RE DIGGING IN AND TRYING TO TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT THIS, HAS TO DO WITH THE AREA OF COMPLEXITY, I WON'T BORE YOU WITH THE MINUTIA.

>> NOT DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, OR LEARNING DISABILITIES -- >> PEOPLE WITH LOW AMOUNT OF INCOME, THINGS ALONG THOSE LINES.

IT CAME THROUGH, AND AGAIN, WHEN I TALK TO EDUCATORS, IT'S -- IT TENDS TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE TO EDUCATE CHILDREN THAT ARE IN THE FOSTER CARE SYSTEM THAT ARE ON TANF AND SNAP.

THEN THERE IS ADDITIONAL COSTS RELATED TO ENGLISH LANGUAGE LEARNERS, SPECIAL EDUCATION, WE'RE TRYING TO TAKE A DEEP DIVE ON THAT.

WE SPENT ABOUT A YEAR-AND-A-HALF LOOKING HOW WE MEASURE COMPLEXITY, AND I WON'T BORE YOU WITH THE MINUTIA.

WE WERE NOT ABLE TO FIND SOMETHING BETTER.

WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SEE IF THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE WE CAN DO, NOT FOR THIS BUDGET, BUT TWO YEARS FROM NOW, USE THE SAME COMPLEXITY MEASURE THAT WE'VE USED IN THE PAST FOR THIS BUDGET.

BUT WE'RE STARTING TO REALLY NEED TO DIG INTO THAT LONGER TERM TO SHAPE A BETTER WAY TO MEASURE THAT.

>> AND I'M GOING TO -- YOU MENTIONED ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT CAME IN WITH STRONG FEELINGS THAT TESTIFIED.

WHERE IS YOUR HEAD RIGHT NOW?

ARE YOU LIKING THAT WE'RE A THIRD GOING TO THIS USE?

OR REAL QUICKLY, I WANT OTHERS TO WEIGH IN.

OR DO YOU THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH?

>> I'M AGNOSTIC WHERE THOSE DOLLARS GO.

I THINK IT'S UP TO THE PARENTS AND FAMILIES TO MAKE DECISIONS HOW BEST TO EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN.

WE HAD GREAT STORIES FROM ALL THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDUCATIONS AVAILABLE IN INDIANA.

THE GOOD THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING, GREAT THINGS WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.

SO I'M A BIG PROPONENT OF LET'S LET FAMILY DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR CHILDREN, WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR FAMILY SITUATION, THEN THAT'S WHERE THE DOLLARS END UP.

SO IF PEOPLE HAVE A BEEF WITH WHERE THOSE DOLLARS END UP, THEY DON'T HAVE A BEEF WITH ME, THEY HAVE A BEEF WITH THE FAMILIES.

>> THE GOVERNOR'S COMMENT ON THE STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS, I LIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WOULDN'T HURT THEM, WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE PEOPLE SUFFER BECAUSE OF THE ZIP CODES IN WHICH THEY LIVE.

>> IT'S ABOUT $170 MILLION THAT'S GOING THROUGH THAT -- >> ONE THIRD -- >> 170 MILLION, YES, SIR.

ONE THING SENATOR HIT ON, LOOKING AT TANF AND SNAP, THE NUMBERS OF STUDENTS ARE DECREASING.

SO I THINK THE COMPLEXITY INDEX IS VERY IMPORTANT TO GIVE THOSE STUDENTS MORE ASSISTANCE, AND MAYBE WE MAY WANT TO REVISIT FREE AND REDUCED LUNCH AS IS PART OF THAT EQUATION.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE SNAP DOLLARS AND TANF DOLLARS IN FOSTER CARE COMPONENTS ARE DECREASING.

>> SENATOR, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

WE WERE TALKING BEFORE THE SHOW HOW SO MANY ISSUES AREN'T NECESSARILY R VERSUS D, BUT RURAL VERSUS URBAN, LARGE PORTIONS OF THE STATE DON'T HAVE ANY SCHOOLS THAT WOULD QUALIFY, PRIVATE SCHOOLS THAT WOULD QUALIFY FOR THESE VOUCHER PROGRAMS.

THEY TEND TO BE CONCENTRATED IN OUR MOST POPULOUS COMMUNITIES.

DOES THAT SHAPE YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

YOU REPRESENT ONE OF THE MOST POPULOUS AREAS CERTAINLY IN THE STATE.

>> I'LL START EVERYONE IN THE LEGISLATURE, ESPECIALLY ON THIS PANEL, GENUINELY WANT OUR CHILDREN TO DO WELL.

IT'S HOW WE GET THERE AND FUND IT, WE MAY HAVE DIFFERENCE OF OPINIONS ON THAT.

I WANT TO TOUCH A LITTLE BIT ON THE BEGINNING PART OF THAT QUESTION THAT YOU ASKED EARLIER ABOUT FROM THE TEACHER PERSPECTIVE, I THINK ADDING ADDITIONAL NEW DOLLARS SO WE CAN GET MORE TO THE BASE FOR SCHOOL CORPORATIONS TO FREE UP FUNDS SO THEY CAN PAY TEACHERS MORE I THINK IS AN OPPORTUNITY AS WELL.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TOOK AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL FUNDING HEARING WAS SENATOR BASSLER RAN VERY WELL IS THAT EQUITY AND EQUALITY STOOD OUT IN THE CONVERSATION FROM MANY OF OUR EDUCATORS ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE, NO MATTER IF IT WAS CHARTER OR TRADITIONAL PUBLIC EDUCATION.

EQUITY AND EQUALITY.

AND I THINK IN THIS PARTICULAR BUDGET WE HAVE A UNIQUE CHANCE TO KIND OF BRING EVERYONE FROM AN EQUAL PERSPECTIVE.

BUT ALSO WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT EVERYONE IS NOT STARTING OUT AT THE SAME FUNDING POINT, OR EQUITY POINT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE COMPLEXITY INDEX AND THE TYPE OF STUDENTS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO EDUCATE.

SO I THINK IT'S A HOLISTIC APPROACH AT HOW WE'RE GOING TO GET THERE.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THE VOUCHER PERSPECTIVE, MY COMMUNITY HAS -- WE HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT OPTIONS.

OUR TRADITIONAL PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SCHOOL SYSTEM, WE'RE INCREASING IN STUDENT ATTENDANCE IN OUR ADM, WHICH IS A GREAT THING.

BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS FOR FAMILIES TO CHOOSE.

SO I'M ALWAYS CAUTIOUS ON HOW WE ALLOCATE RESOURCES, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT AT ANY GIVEN TIME, DEPENDING ON HOW THINGS SHIFT, THAT FAMILIES CAN CHOOSE ONE OPTION OVER THE OTHER.

SO IT'S ALWAYS A COMPETITIVENESS WITHIN PONE PARTICULAR COMMUNITY THAT' BEEN -- >> SOMEBODY WINS, SOMEBODY LOSES.

DID YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THE SCHOOL ISSUE?

>> COMPLEXITY IS A MEASUREMENT.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INDIANAPOLIS PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM AND ZIONSVILLE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRAWFORDSVILLE AND FORT WORTH WAYNE?

HOW DO THEY MEASURE DIFFERENTLY?

I MEAN, I WOULD AGREE, TEACHERS HAVE COME IN AND SAID IT TAKES US DIFFERENCE TO TEACH THIS COMPLEX STUDENT.

OKAY, BUT IF YOU GET A SECOND ONE, DOES IT DOUBLE?

BECAUSE YOU'RE TEACHING, USING THE SAME METHOD, STRUCTURE AND TEACHER, IT HASN'T DOUBLED YOUR COST TO TEACH TWO COMPLEX STUDENTS, AND YET THEY DO GET DOUBLE THE MONEY FOR TWO COMPLEX STUDENTS.

OUR SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE TE MONEY TRACK THE INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS, THEY GO INTO THEIR GENERAL UNIFIED OPERATING FUND.

AND SO WHAT IT DOES IS IT JUST MEASURES THE DIFFERENCE.

I GUESS I WOULD SAY FREE AND REDUCED LUNCH OVER TIME HAS BEEN BASTARDIZED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE YOU GET COMMUNITY RATING.

A WHOLE SCHOOL, 100% OF THE KIDS CAN BE FREE AND REDUCED LUNCH.

IS 100% OF THE KIDS, YOU KNOW, COMPLEX KIDS?

NO.

SO IT SKEWS MONEY TO THEM WHEN IT SHOULDN'T >> SO COMPLEXITY IS COMPLEX.

HEY, I HANDLED THE TRUCK WEIGHT FORMULA LAST WEEK.

SO I CAN HANDLE ANY FORMULA YOU THROW AT ME.

WE COULD TALK ABOUT SCHOOLS CLEARLY, THAT IS MORE THAN HALF THE BUDGET.

ANOTHER CHUNK THAT YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH IS MEDICAID, IT GOES UP, AND YOU NEED TO GO UP WITH IT.

SO WE'RE AT THE MARGINS HERE OF WHAT YOU CAN DO.

WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THOSE THINGS.

REVENUE ENHANCEMENT, I'M HESITANT TO EVEN BRING THIS UP, BECAUSE IT IS JUST SUCH A RARITY THAT YOUR CAUCUS WOULD SUPPORT, FOR INSTANCE, A TAX INCREASE, OF SOME SORT.

BUT IT IS NOT REALLY FOR THE BUDGET.

WE SHOULD PROBABLY SAY THE CIGARETTE TAX INCREASE, EVERYBODY SAYS IT'S NOT ABOUT THE BUDGET, IT'S ABOUT CURBING A BEHAVIOR THAT WE DON'T WANT, AND WAS UNDERSCORED DURING THE PANDEMIC JUST WHY WE DON'T WANT IT IN TERMS OF OUR HEALTH STANDARD.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY ISN'T IT GOING INTO THOSE FUNDS?

ISN'T IT GOING INTO THE GENERAL FUND?

$0.50 OPPOSED TO THE $2 A PACK.

>> YES, 50.5 TO RAISE US TO $1.50 EVEN.

IT IS USING FOR GENERAL FUND FOR MEDICAID SERVICES.

WE'VE HAD OVER 200,000 PEOPLE JOIN MEDICAID SINCE THE PANDEMIC STARTED OVER A YEAR AGO.

AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THEIR MONEY GIVEN TO THE STATE SAYS YOU CAN'T NECESSARIL LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO HAVE GAINED AN INCOME AND TRIMMED THE ROLES OR ROLLED PEOPLE OFF.

IT IS AGAINST THE FEDERAL LAW NOW DURING THIS PANDEMIC TO HAVE PEOPLE GO OFF OF MEDICAID, SO THEY'RE STAYING ON.

SO WE HAVE THE SIZE OF THE CITY OF FORT WAYNE, FORT WAYNE IS ABOUT OVER 200,000.

BUT WE HAVE 200,000 MORE PEOPLE -- >> IT WOULDN'T GO TO SUPPORT -- YOU WOULDN'T BE COUNTING ON IT AS A FISCAL CRUTCH, BECAUSE IF IT GOES -- WORKS ACCORDING TO PLAN, THAT REVENUE STREAM DISAPPEARS, BY DEFINITION.

>> YES.

>> DOES ANYBODY HAVE STRONG FEELINGS WHETHER IT SHOULD BE $2 AS SOME SAID, OR A DOLLAR OR $0.50, PEOPLE SAY $0.50 ISN'T EVEN WORTH IT.

>> I THINK NO MATTER IF IT'S $0.50 OR $2, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, HOUSE DEMOCRATS, INDIANA BLACK LEGISLATIVE CAUCUS, INDIANA MINORITY HEALTH COALITION, IT SHOULD GO TOWARD HEALTHCARE, PERIOD.

ONE THING WHICH IS IN OUR REAR VIEW MIRROR, OVER 50 MILLION THAT WE UTILIZE TO FIELD THE ACTIVE BUDGET FOR 2020.

OKAY.

SO, I MEAN, WE ALWAYS HAVE MONEY IN OUR MEDICAID RESERVES ALONG WITH TUITION RESERVES, PART OF OUR $1.9 BILLION SURPLUS WE HAVE NOW.

I THINK THE MONEY SHOULD GO TOWARD HEALTHCARE.

>> ANYBODY WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THIS?

ONE GROUP, FOR INSTANCE, THE ADVOCATES FOR MENTAL HEALTH RECIPIENTS SERVICES AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE, THERE IS A GAP, 20 SOME MILLION DOLLARS.

THE SUGGESTION IS THAT FEDERAL DOLLARS WOULD COME IN THERE.

SHOULD PEOPLE BE ALARMED IF THEY RECEIVE MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE SERVICES, THAT IT IS NOT IN THE BUDGET AT THE MOMENT?

>> THAT WAS ONE OF MY CONCERNS WAS THE CUT OF 26 MILLION IN MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION SERVICES.

WITH COVID, AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH A RISE OF SUICIDE ACROSS THE NATION, ACTUALLY, A RISE OF NEEDS OF -- INDIVIDUALS NEEDING THOSE TYPE OF SERVICES, SOMETHING WE SHOULD MAKE A PRIORITY.

THE CIGARETTE TAX, MY OPINION, IF IT IS TO CURB A BEHAVIOR, WELL, PART OF THAT IS FROM A FISCAL PERSPECTIVE, AND RAISING IT TO A POINT WHERE FOLKS ARE SAYING THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO SMOKE ANYMORE.

I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE A PART OF CURBING THAT BEHAVIOR.

>> SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

I GUESS SOME PEOPLE PANIC, THE NOTION THAT FEDERAL DOLLARS WOULD GO IN TO FILL THAT GAP, AND LET ME CLOSE WITH THIS, ERIC BASSLER, WE THINK WE KNOW ALL THE CARDS THAT ARE ON THE TABLE, WHEN PEOPLE GET TOGETHER AND HAMMER OUT THE FINAL HOURS.

SOMETIMES THERE'S A SURPRISE.

REMEMBER VOTE GAMING CAME OUT OF NOWHERE, FUNDING FOR THE STATE MUSEUM, WASN'T MENTIONED ANYWHERE, 96 WAS IN THERE.

DO WE KNOW EVERYTHING?

JUST GIVE US A LITTLE HINT WHAT THE SURPRISE IS GOING TO BE THIS TIME, WHAT SHOULD WE BE LOOKING FOR?

>> I WOULD BE A SURPRISE IF THERE WAS A SURPRISE.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON THE HOUSE VERSION OF THE BUDGET SINCE IT CAME OVER TO US ABOUT A MONTH AGO.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE GOING TO TWEAK IT AND MAKE CHANGES.

I THINK THAT WE'RE TAKING A SERIOUS LOOK AT THE CIGARETTE TAX WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ALSO, I THINK THERE IS A GOOD REASON TO PUT SOME TAX IN PLACE WITH RESPECT TO VAPING, WHETHER YOU DO THAT AT RETAIL, WHOLESALE, CLOSE AND OPEN SYSTEMS, COMPLICATED LIKE MOST THINGS WE DEAL WITH.

>> RIGHT NOW, 10% EXCISE TAX, WHICH, AGAIN, SUBJECT TO, I GUESS, SOME TWEAKING.

>> BUT I THINK WHAT WE WANT TO DO, WE KIND OF WANT TO USE THOSE TO DISCOURAGE BEHAVIORS THAT LEAD TO A LOT OF HEALTHCARE COSTS, SMOKING AND VAPING, AND SO FORTH.

WE CAN'T -- SURE, WE CAN RELY UPON THE SHORT RUN AS REVENUE.

BUT WE CAN'T DO SO LONG RUN.

WE HOPE THE DECLINING REVENUE SOURCE.

>> THEN YOUR JOB, IF THAT DOESN'T HAVE ZEROS IN THAT ACCOUNT AFTER A WHILE.

THANK YOU, ALL.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SCRATCHING THE SURFACE.

I'M JUST CLEARING MY THROAT, WE COULD KEEP GOING AND GOING.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR OBVIOUS EXPERTISE AND PASSION.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TIM BROWN OF CRAWFORDSVILLE DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE GREG PORTER OF INDIANAPOLIS REPUBLICAN SENATOR ERIC BASSLER OF WASHINGTON AND DEMOCRATIC GARY.

>> ON THE HEELS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BIG INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, WE'LL TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE'RE BUILDING BRIDGES ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH INDIANA LAWMAKERS ANALYST ED FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT, PART OF HANNAH NEWS SERVICE.

ED, NORMALLY WHEN WE TALK TO FOLKS ABOUT THE BUDGET, IT'S VERY CONTENTIOUS, WHERE WERE ALL THE KNIVES TODAY?

>> I THINK THAT THE COVID MONEY CERTAINLY HELPS.

YOU'VE GOT AN EXTRA 3 BILLION TO START THROWING AROUND, HEY, YOU'RE NOT ARGUING ABOUT THINGS AT THE MARGINS NECESSARILY.

THE BUDGET, JON, AS YOU KNOW IS ALWAYS ABOUT TWO THINGS, ABOUT THAT BOTTOM LINE AMOUNT, AND IT IS ABOUT EDUCATION.

AND WE HEARD TODAY IN THE ROUNDTABLE, A LOT OF TALK ABOUT EDUCATION, WHAT YOU DIDN'T HEAR THAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IS THAT 105, THE ESA, EDUCATION SAVINGS ACCOUNT MEASURE IS GOING TO BE THROWN INTO THE BUDGET.

THAT'S GOING TO BE A CONTENTIOUS ISSUE IN THE END.

WE'RE GOING TO HEAR MORE FROM REPRESENTATIVE PORTER TOWARD THE END OF DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE LACK OF MONEY FOR HUMAN CAPITAL THAT WILL BE APPROPRIATED BY REPUBLICANS.

HE'S GOING TO PUSH A LOT MORE FOR THE LONGER TERM SPENDING ON THAT THAN HE MIGHT HAVE ALLUDED TO DURING THE PANEL.

HE'S BEEN VERY, VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT THAT OVER THE COURSE OF HIS CAREER, HE'S GOING TO PUSH FOR THAT IN THE FINAL WEEK OR TWO OF THE SESSION.

>> DO MOST PEOPLE COME AWAY FROM THIS SESSION, DECLARING VICTORY, PATTING THEMSELVES ON THE BACK.

WOULD YOU SAY?

AGAIN, THAT $3 BILLION CERTAINLY HELPS A LOT.

>> SURE, BUT THE BUDGET IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE -- OR HAS TURNED INTO, IN RECENT YEARS, MORE OF A POLICY DOCUMENT.

I THINK THAT DEPENDING UPON WHERE SOME OF THAT MONEY IS DIRECTED, AND HOW THAT POLICY COMES OUT IS WHO IS GOING TO BE DECLARING VICTORY THIS YEAR OR NOT.

>> NO QUESTION THIS IS SOMETHING THE GOVERNOR CAN PUT HIS SIGNATURE ON EVEN IF HE'S NOT HAPPY WITH A LITTLE BIT HERE AND THERE, THERE IS NO QUESTION, EVERYBODY IS ONBOARD IN TERMS OF THE HOUSE MAJORITY -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND SENATE SUPERMAJORITY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING, TOO, TO WATCH IN THE FUTURE, PERHAPS NOT THIS YEAR, BUT GOING FORWARD, YOU KNOW, THE BATTLE BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE FOR SUPREMACY ON THE BUDGET AS SOME OF THE PLAYERS CHANGE AND PEOPLE RETIRE AND MOVE ON.

>> VERY GOOD, ED, HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, AS ALWAYS, I APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FOR MORE INFORMATION, EPISODE STREAMS AND OTHER EXTRA CONTENT VISIT US ON THE WEB AT WFYI.ORG/LAWMAKERS.

AND REMEMBER, YOU CAN GET OUR SHOW ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY.

WELL, THAT CONCLUDES ANOTHER EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.I'M JON SCHWANTES.I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US UNTIL NEXT WEEK, TAKE CARE.