From WXXI news.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in the 1940s, when a group of patients at the Rockland Psychiatric Center were preparing to be discharged.

Rockland was a place like many psych centers of its day.

It employed shock therapies that later were widely discredited.

Some patients tended to feel like pariahs or worse.

And this group of patients wanted to reenter society with a healthier footing.

So they formed a kind of self-help group of their own.

It became known as a Clubhouse, and the concept was pioneered by Fountain House in New York City.

The concept is grown to provide individuals with serious mental illness, a kind of community and structure.

People with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, severe depression, or other conditions can find other people to socialize with, to organize their days, to find support, to get back to work.

Clubhouses were gaining in popularity in New York State.

That seemed to tail off in the 1990s, but my colleague Noelle Evans reports that the state is now reinvesting in Clubhouses.

Governor Kathy Hochul has committed $6.6 million to help develop a network of Clubhouses across the state.

It's happening at a time when mental health services are being scrutinized for their effectiveness.

The people behind the Clubhouse model believe that the evidence supports their approach, and we're going to talk about that from a number of angles this hour.

Let me welcome in studio Jamie Comenale, who's chief program officer at East House.

Welcome back to the program.

Thanks for having me.

Joining us remotely, Liz Breier is chief advocacy officer for the New York State Office of Mental Health.

Liz, welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having me.

And welcome to Alex Baldassare, who is senior director of strategic growth at Fountain House.

Alex, welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

Pleasure to be here.

And the Reverend Doctor Phillip Fleming is a board member at Fountain House and a member of the Fountain House Clubhouse.

Welcome to you, Reverend.

Thanks for being with us.

Good to be here.

So briefly, Jamie and I were talking before the program began.

Just about understanding.

I said to Jamie, until Noelle Evans reporting on this, I'm not sure I knew what Clubhouse was.

And so I said, Is East House a Clubhouse?

Explain to me what you are and then what is now going to grow and change with this state direction.

Yeah.

So East House traditionally is a network and a continuum of care for residential services for people with both severe mental illness and substance use disorders.

And this will give us the opportunity to really expand our reach to more people in the community at low barrier access, to provide that social reward.

And purpose.

Right.

And engagement.

And a meaningful way to help, you know, increase their opportunities and, increase their outcomes.

So the current iteration of these steps is not a Clubhouse.

No, but you intend to have a Clubhouse?

We do.

We, received that.

We wrote for the RFP.

We received the award.

So we will have, Clubhouse.

Our goal is to have it, open in 2027.

But, you know, things take time.

So we'll see how that, manifests.

You got to have a physical space for it.

We do.

I mean, it's a concept.

It's an idea of of how mental health, patients can have healing and support, but it does require physical space for you, right?

Correct.

What kind of space?

Yeah.

So it has to be an accessible space.

It's got to be separate from, one of our other locations.

And so trying to find that in the Rochester area might be a little bit of a challenge, but we're up for it.

And it's got to be a welcoming.

It's got to have space for the work order days and the groups that need to function within that.

So it's got to be comprehensive.

It's got to be dynamic, and it's got to be accessible.

Liz Breier, how does New York State define what Clubhouse is?

Well, I think, one of the things that was just mentioned is a key piece that separates it from, maybe the more widely understood psycho social clubs, and that is that work order day.

That is a defining feature of a Clubhouse model.

Another key characteristic that we would use to define what a Clubhouse is is that everybody is a member.

So as opposed to being a participant or a patient or a client, this it puts everyone on equal standing in terms of how the Clubhouse is run, who decides what's happening in the Clubhouse, what activities are offered, what is focused on, you know, down to what staff are hired.

I've been to Clubhouses that oversee literally every aspect of the business side of running it.

And, and the socialization part of running it.

So I think those are two really important distinctions, you know, for folks to keep in mind.

This isn't the more stereotypical Drop-In center, although it probably can have aspects of that as well, where folks come to connect with each other, have a cup of coffee and just see what's good, what's going on.

But that work water day is a really key characteristic and defining characteristic of the Clubhouse model.

Well, the Reverend Doctor Phillip Fleming is a member of the Fountain House Clubhouse.

And so what does that mean in your life?

Tell me about being a member.

So, my very first day was was November 1st, 2013.

Like, as soon as I like, you know, you opened up the green doors, you're greeted by someone that was say, hey, welcome to the Clubhouse.

And is another member that is greeting you at the door.

So that sense of welcoming, you know, for me, I started as soon as I opened the green doors.

And the reason why I had the green door is exists on the outside.

As you know, green, represents, you know, growth, and prosperity.

I mean, I'm wearing a green start now.

So, that welcoming aspect that Liz, mentioned, you know, starts as soon as you open the doors and that's what kept me coming back.

You know, day after day after day for almost 13 years now.

Has it made your life better and healthier?

Oh, gosh.

That's an understatement.

Like, I, I don't think I will be where I am today if it wasn't in part for in a 4000 house, maybe my life changed instantly.

I, you know, I came in with certain conditions, and, you know, I wasn't judged for at all.

You know, I was given, like, the space to just be myself.

And you know, partake of everything that family house has to offer, you know, on my terms.

I got to choose my worker.

I got to choose my, you know, my unit.

I got to choose, the types of engagements that I, you know, wanted to do, including, that work for the day.

But it's so much more than the work of the day.

You know, there's times that socialization, through evening and weekend programing where there's been anything from, like, music, you know, going to concerts, you know, Comic-Con, you know, U.S.

open tennis, like all those wonderful things.

And then in-house activities, including in, celebrations of, people's birthdays, special holidays.

You know, you know, music, games, prizes are awarded, and I and members get to share and help plan like all those things, you know, along with, the staff.

So we are literally, you know, working, as one in on nothing.

You know, as with how, you know, from the membership, you know, not we all work together.

Well, let me ask Alex Baldassare.

Desiree, who's senior director of strategic growth at Fountain House.

You know, Phillip is describing a non-judgmental, no stigma, welcoming approach.

And that is very different than the world of the American Psych Center history.

The models of how we have often treated people with serious mental illness for decades in this country.

We've certainly come a long way.

Can you describe how important you see the approach that Phillip's talking about?

This idea that people who were often in the past, either institutionalized, treated like pariahs, basically kept out of society, are now sort of reintegrated in society?

Yeah, I think I think Phillip just said it best.

I think peer we start with people first, right?

I think one of the things that Liz alluded to just a moment ago, too, is just the fact that really realistically, Clubhouse starts with capability.

Members aren't defined by a diagnosis or by what's happened to them previously.

They're approached as people with strengths, given choices, responsibilities, goals, and are expected to contribute.

Right.

I think instead of asking only what's wrong with you?

And how do we treat it in Clubhouse, we also ask, what does this person want for their life?

What do they have to contribute?

What kind of community makes that possible for them, and how can they become coauthors of that community as well?

The expectation is contribution, not limitation within Clubhouse is.

And so I would say that's what's probably one of the greatest differentiators from what has been previously defined as how we approach mental health in this country.

Alex, are you able to say how many people are in the Clubhouse at Fountain House?

Yeah, well, at Fountain House, we have over 2000 folks that are, served in the New York City area.

But we actually oversee four separate Clubhouses.

One is the original on 47th Street between ninth and 10th.

We also have the Clubhouse in Harlem, in the Bronx.

And we also have a ribbon cutting slated for this coming October for our Clubhouse in Hollywood as well.

And so we're really fortunate having such a robust kind of, not just footprint, but communities that exist in these different places across the city, and also the country.

And so all of that is really what makes these places not just part of the same organization, which is Fountain House, but realistically just reflections of the communities that they already are in.

Yeah.

And, you know, obviously the population base is a little different in New York City compared to Rochester.

So, Jamie Comenale, do you have a sense of of what kind of population you might be able to serve once you have a Clubhouse up and running?

Yeah, I think it's going to be people who are excited about the possibilities that, perhaps nobody has ever opened the door for them to look at.

And really partnering with our local agencies that serve the same populations, you know, these individuals who are looking for more out of their recovery.

And being able to offer that to them and have it be member driven.

I think that that, you know, Alex mentioned that that's the exciting part about this Clubhouse.

And I think what really drew East House to this, opportunity was that we can work alongside Nat for and really alongside the members to make sure that it is what they want and what our community wants for them inside the walls of the Clubhouse.

So, let's talk a little about how people end up finding this community in the first place.

And maybe Phillip's story is one that we can kind of draw on here.

So, Phillip, it's been a number of years for you.

You are a board member at Fountain House.

I know you know the history well there.

But what was it that that put you at their door in the first place?

Were you informed about it by someone in sort of health provider circles?

Did someone else recommend it?

How did you end up there?

So I was actually, heard about it from a fellow member.

So, you know, at that time, he was, heavily involved.

He found housing, through, thousand House.

And so I think it was through this particular person, that, you know, I knew I found the house was, you know, I knew I wanted to, you know, to visit because I felt that, the Clubhouse had a lot to offer us.

You know, that's kind of the short answer.

And when you showed up for the first time, 12.

I mean, did they, before they gave you this membership, did they talk to you about, you know, whatever your previous diagnoses were?

I mean, what was was there a rigorous process?

What was that like?

I don't recall, diagnoses even come up, which was good, right?

Because, you know, I was already being judged, like, outside of that setting, you know, by, you know, by doctors, by psychiatrists and therapists.

I mean, that was the last thing I wanted to hear, you know?

Gosh, another place that's going to judge me because of what happened to me.

So I had a house.

I didn't get that from them.

Like, not at all.

And the process wasn't rigorous at all.

You know, they just, ask a few questions, particularly like, you know, what am I got?

What my aspirations are.

What do I want to get out of the Clubhouse experience.

That was basically it.

Yeah.

And maybe Alex can say a little bit more about, you know, when people are coming in the door and what you feel like you need to know or don't know.

Yeah.

I think Philip's experience is not different than other members, not just at Fountain House, but across anywhere that is employing the Clubhouse model.

Right.

It's really fundamentally trying to connect with the healthy part of the individual, not seeing somebody for a diagnosis, but seeing somebody that is made a decision to show up to a place.

I think realistically, one of the biggest aspects of what we do is really trying to center in on the fact that we are trying to create a space where members can participate in their recovery, not just simply receive it.

And so that opportunity first presents itself when folks come for a tour, right?

The ability to walk into a space, as Philip just said, be greeted by somebody and then feel as though that you're welcome is something that we're hoping to have happen across any place that is an accredited Clubhouse, not just here in the United States, but across the planet.

And that kind of creation of community is what is not just inviting, but hopefully where somebody that has taken the really courageous step to choose their recovery path, that they can see themselves within the space that they're then walking through.

Well, and this is where I think Liz Breier, chief advocacy officer for the New York State Office of Mental Health.

We should ask Liz how you and how the state, you know, you arrive at this decision to help fund this model and to see more Clubhouses.

How are you confident that the evidence is there, that this works?

I mean, one of the hardest things to measure if I break my leg, you can tell me if my leg.

I know if my leg is healed, but if I have depression, if I have any number of mental illnesses.

Success and healing and recovery looks different for a lot of different individuals, and evidence is a little murkier.

How do you feel about the evidence behind Clubhouses?

That's a great question.

And you speak like someone who's asked these questions before.

I just want to say, so first of all, I just again want to reiterate what you said at the beginning and thanks to Governor Hochul for being so invested in the mental health and well-being of all New Yorkers and also the commissioner and Sullivan, for that matter.

I'm a person with lived experience myself, with mental health diagnoses and system experience.

And your question is accurate.

Sometimes what the system will say is a measurement of success can be a little bit limiting, to be honest.

You know, it focuses a lot on stability and whether or not someone is taking their medications and compliance.

And I'm not saying that these things aren't important, but I don't think they really paint a full picture of what a life well-lived looks like.

And when you're also, you know, I'm putting my advocacy hat on when you're also speaking about some of the barriers that we face from society.

Just in general.

You know, you'd spoken earlier about how we've treated the this issue historically, while society also plays into that.

So are we welcome?

Are we able to navigate spaces the same as other people can?

And Clubhouses create an environment where people feel safe, where people feel comfortable, where people feel welcome.

So we look at the data.

It can be as simple as how many people are coming in any given year, you know, down to how many people stay.

Looking at things such as self-report, do you feel that you are living a life?

You know, since recovery is self-defined, as you said, it, most of the time, voice and choice play a tremendous part.

And whether or not someone feels empowered to live a life of recovery, something as simple as just being given the choice of what part of the Clubhouse you're going to interact with on that given day.

That may seem like a small thing, but that's actually huge.

Huge for someone who hasn't been given a lot of voice and choice in their life.

And unfortunately, that does happen to a lot of people who enjoy the mental health system.

They're told what they need to do.

And sort of held responsible in a way that doesn't always work for them when they don't agree that those things are something that would actually be helpful for them.

So I think that's where you see a lot of the measurement of what success looks like is are the other areas of their lives, their dimensions of wellness, for example, all the different things that play into someone living a good life, all those things being represented in the Clubhouse and are folks taking advantage of that if they're using it, that's a pretty good indication that it's working.

Alex, how do you feel about defining and looking for evidence of success and what you're doing at Fountain House?

Yeah, I think it's important.

I think I think it, specifically, it's important when you're speaking to audiences that don't know about Clubhouse.

I think that that's really valid with respect to wanting to understand.

Hey, is this place that I am going to recommend my son, daughter, nephew, neighbor?

Can I be certain that this is something that's going to finally help them?

And the answer is, yeah, it will.

And it's something that realistically, in going through the statistics, we can cite that 73% of surveyed members reported high levels of loneliness when they enrolled.

Among that group, 58% reported feeling less lonely.

Right.

And I kind of gets back to what Liz was just talking about, that that statistic gets close to the heart of what Clubhouse is address, which is isolation and disconnection through real community.

But in truth, it only is the tip of the iceberg with respect to what actually happens at Clubhouses, which is that cultivation of belonging, the need to be needed is something that we say often, when we're doing trainings and things of that nature.

But ultimately, and again, it realistically is whatever you are choosing to create your experience as within that environment, knowing that you are a contributor and knowing that you are part of the community, that's not just helping you on your journey, but that sense of responsibility that that person next to you is also on their own journey as well.

And so that sense of collective responsibility, trust and undertaking is part of how Clubhouse is work, along with the statistics that we have that showcase the longevity and a history of creating improvement in people's lives.

Living with SMI, I certainly take the point that when people are coming back and spending a lot of time there, that is a validation in its own right.

How much time do Clubhouse members tend to spend in the Clubhouse out?

Yeah.

It varies.

I think one of the bigger you talk about differentiators between the model that we employ and others, it's not mandated.

So it's all predicated upon volunteer, volunteerism.

So, any member can choose when they come or when they go, and participate within the Clubhouse.

It varies, especially with respect to different age brackets and, and different demographics as well.

But we have seen is that when folks do decide to come back after visiting and actually not coming back the first time around, either taking that initial tour or being able to, you know, do it for a first stint and go, hey, not now.

Is that that second time around when they do return, they actually do stay, for an extended period of time.

And so that is where, realistically, we're trying to cultivate that sticky experience so that folks can not just feel, that they belong, but that they're also not intimidated because something that we do need to be really mindful of, especially when we're talking about young adults or folks that are even, elderly, when they're walking into a given space and they are looking around for that first time, that could be an incredibly overwhelming experience.

It's one of the reasons why, you know, and listening to what Phillip just said a second ago about his experience walking through those green doors, it's incredibly important, especially for these new Clubhouses coming online, being able to cultivate a space that can feel welcoming so that even in the, event that someone makes that decision not to come back the next time they do, it'll feel as though that they're not just expected, but that they were awaiting them there at that return.

Well, Philip, over the years, how much time have you spent in the Clubhouse?

So up until the time I, moved to, you know, Geneva, New York, it was, mostly five days a week.

I would go there.

So, part of my time and in the city, I was homeless.

Really didn't have, a place to go, but I did have a place to go, you know?

And that was Fountain House for many, many reasons why, you know, they serve, delicious, meals that are, you know, very inexpensive, and, you know, there there are activities that I could engage in that, you know, really fit in.

You know, my strengths.

You know, I kind of fetched, new things I wanted to do, for instance, you know, getting involved with me doing tech, in, not my strong suit.

But, you know, I stepped out of that and it it's it's a community of people.

Not necessarily the work that makes the experience, like, worthwhile.

Like, I mean, I could be peeling potatoes down in culinary, but, you know, I'd be surrounded by some of the most fantastic, members and staff, like, on the planet.

So, and all of that, we do, you know, it goes back to community, and you'd be surprised what you learn, from other people.

And that's that setting.

I mean, I've learned some things that.

Wow, like, you know, who would have thought?

But it's coming from members.

Why?

Because we're given that space, you know, to be, you know, the experts that we are and we are, you know, in our own way, in our own right.

We all have something to, contribute.

And to me, that's what made the Clubhouse experience, you know, even greater.

You know, it starts with, you know, opening the doors and being welcome, but then you know, you, you know, you go to your niches and, you know, and you find, you know, other communities, and you get to do, you know, things that you love to do.

I mean, I'm a writer, and a communication unit is where I started in 2013.

And and now, like, I'm signing for publications.

And our founder house was instrumental as sort of being that foundation to, expand my writing career.

So this is just one example of hundreds, of experiences, that you, as a member of that house or any other Clubhouse will get by being a member.

Jamie Comenale.

You want to hear people talking like that about the Clubhouse that's going to be with you, with your organization, right?

Absolutely.

Yes.

So are you as sold as everybody else on the evidence that this model works?

Yeah.

We wouldn't have written for it and stood behind it when this opportunity came.

If we weren't sold on it.

We believe in everything that is the foundation of these Clubhouses as the beginning of possibly someone's journey into recovery or expanding upon what they already have built.

And we need these places more and more.

And, I'm grateful that we have this opportunity in New York State to bring this at least to our area and our region.

I was trying to read before the program, you know, is there any criticism of the model?

And there really is not a lot of criticism of the Clubhouse model that I could find.

The criticism, you know, as much as there is in this realm is more it tends to come from the political right.

And and it tends to be of the flavor of, we are over diagnosing mental illness.

We are over spending on problems that, you know, we don't have to find solutions for.

Yeah.

So that criticism is out there.

And today we're talking about severe mental illness.

I mean, I think it's on a different level than where some of the more recent criticism has been in the kind of the culture wars.

But I'm still curious to know if you think, are we in a good place in addressing mental illness as a society?

We are.

Are we in the healthiest place we have been?

We still have a long place to go.

I think we're in the healthiest place we've been because we are light years away from where we were when we were institutionalized.

Right.

But I hope everybody agrees.

Yeah, I would hope so.

But I think that we have so much more to learn, so much more to offer.

I think the reason that we're where we are is because now there's finally awareness.

There's still so much stigma.

And there's still pushback, right.

Are these, like you mentioned, are these places worthwhile?

Should we be putting our money into them?

And I think that that is where in 2026 outcomes are key.

Right.

But we have to understand what defines those outcomes.

And that's the part that's going to be the biggest challenge right.

Because this is member driven and it's person centered.

And so understanding what what is success for the person that we're working with and what is success for our members?

Well, East House has obviously years of experience working in this field, even though you haven't had a Clubhouse up and running yet, and you have seen how important it is for people to feel connected to something, to not feel unmoored or pushed out of society.

And I feel like modern technology, this is not like meant to be just a social media rant.

But I feel like we are more isolated as a result of some of these modern changes.

All of us people with severe mental illness, people who are not diagnosed with mental illness.

And I wonder if that just makes it even harder for people to feel connected to something, especially if they do have a severe mental illness.

For sure.

And that's why bringing a Clubhouse to the Rochester area is so important.

So we can put down the technology and be face to face and interact in ways that is meaningful and has purpose.

I think that we are stuck to seeing how other people are operating and comparing ourselves.

And, you know, compile that or, you know, and look at that through the lens of someone who's already working through and managing severe and persistent mental illness.

It's amazing that they can, you know, get through the day looking at other people who are maybe functioning at a different level than them and comparing themselves to that through social media.

And so being able to be in a safe space where they can explore all of their possibilities and purpose and who they are, I think just opens up the door for our area to be so much more, you know, aware and, open to the idea that people can recover lost.

Brian, do you want to weigh in on too?

And on some of that, again, there's not a lot of criticism I've seen of the Clubhouse model.

The criticism that I've seen comes from the the idea that we're either over funding mental health services or it's too nebulous or there's too much diagnosis.

What do you make of that?

Well, I'm never going to say we're over funding mental health so that I'm never going to agree with.

I think we can never have enough funding to be honest, to be able to meet, you know, the unique challenges that people who find themselves engaging with this system.

And honestly, they're probably engaging with more than just the mental health system.

Life is complicated.

Life intersects, and people find themselves having a lot of different system experiences.

So I don't think it's I don't think you can ever have enough money.

Do I think that maybe and this is me speaking out for the Office of Mental Health?

Do I think that sometimes there is a, more colloquial view of, you know, people throw words around and we're not talking about the clinical diagnosis and the threshold, you know, that someone would need to me to be, described as seriously and persistently mentally ill.

But I also think that the stigma that comes with that label is pretty significant.

And while it's better than it was, I think we do have some ways to go because people don't understand what they hear.

You know, they can see a lot of, not great information, unfortunately, in the media.

You know, that does happen where, only the worse things are being highlighted.

And not everybody who's just living their life trying to lift their best life and do what they need to do.

Those stories aren't told and celebrated.

I think the Office of Mental Health does a good job in doing that.

We do highlight when folks are living their life and doing well, and not just focusing on the bad stories.

So, I don't think that we're over focusing.

I, some of the discourse that I hear, you know, I am someone with lived experience who has been labeled.

I don't love what I'm hearing on a personal level.

I don't want to be institutionalized, and lose years of my life, because society doesn't think that I should be walking out in public so that that sort of discourse I don't love to hear.

And I think an initiative like Clubhouse's pokes at that, you know, pokes at what, what folks think is, the best way to treat these issues, which is, you know, diagnose, prescribe medication, you know, hospitalized folks, these things are necessary, unfortunately for some people.

But what else is there?

I would never have made it this far in my life if I didn't have peer support, if I didn't have, structure and a group that had my back when I was at my worst.

And I think that Clubhouse is really can provide that for folks, but also celebrate you when you're at your best and really speak about and point to what our opportunities, what are possibilities, you know, what did you want for your life before you got that diagnosis?

Before someone told you that you shouldn't do anything because you had a mental illness, and just take your meds and go to a program because I heard that.

And if I listen to that, if I believe that, I would never be, you know, as far as I've gotten in life, I be the chief advocacy officer.

You know, I wouldn't have my husband and my stepdaughters and the and the rich life that I have.

So I rambled a little and I apologize.

I have no rambling at all for the answer.

You.

But I don't think that.

In fact, when we get back from our only break, which we'll take right now, I want to talk a little bit more about this notion of stigma.

I've got emails from Patrick and Angie.

Angie says, even just a diagnosis of depression is enough to make your close friends treat you differently.

So I want to I want to talk a little bit about that.

We'll get Phillip's take on that.

We'll get, I want to hear a little bit more from Liz on Angie's email.

Patrick is asking us to kind of reset and describe who Clubhouses are for, and we'll do that as well.

We're talking about, the Clubhouse model of of working on significant mental illness and mental health.

New York State and Governor Hochul committing $6.6 million to develop a network of these Clubhouses across the state.

And we're talking to Liz Breier, who you just heard, chief advocacy officer for the New York State Office of Mental Health.

Jamie Comenale is with me in studio, chief program officer at East House and with us from Fountain House, Alex Baldassare and the Reverend Doctor Phillip Fleming, who has been a member there for about 13 years.

Let's take this break.

We'll come right back to your feedback.

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He explains.

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This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Angie says even just a diagnosis of depression is enough to make close friends treat you differently.

I'm going to ask all of our guests to weigh in on the idea of stigma.

And I'll start with Liz, who was kind of talking a little bit about you said that in some ways, you don't like what you're seeing in the discourse about this issue.

And I wonder what you would say to Angie.

I would agree with Angie.

I think that we have sort of a notion, and I don't think this is unique to this country, although it might be that these things equate to weakness, or somehow you've done something personal to cause this, you brought this on yourself.

We have a strong, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps sort of mentality.

So when someone is clearly struggling to do that, and I would argue that we can't do that alone, and that community is one of the ways that we can sort of improve our lives.

I think that, stigma rears its head and then it's often followed by, it's it's relatives of discrimination where people are kept out of things.

So stigma is hard enough to deal with, where you're not wanted or you're not viewed is capable.

But then we have real discrimination happening.

You know, the not in my backyard is a perfect example of that.

You know, Jamie, as a, housing provider, I'm sure you can speak to this.

That it's very difficult to find places that will give you space and rent to you.

Landlords do not want to provide housing to someone with who's known to have a mental health diagnosis.

There is a lot of fear that's not founded in anything, in any real facts, that circulate out there.

So I would agree from you know, depression, anxiety on to, you know, the diagnosis that most people seem to really fear, which is schizoaffective or schizophrenia.

A lot of myths about what these conditions are and what they're not.

And people, you know, don't do their research always.

They will listen to what they hear and believe myths over facts and create narratives that actually bar people from living their lives.

So she's right, Jamie.

How about that?

Not in my backyard idea.

Yeah, I mean, it is difficult to, find places safely to house people, you know, and even just be accepted in our own community.

I mean, I think Rochester in particular, Monroe County, is really rich with a lot of great providers who are doing work to reduce the stigma.

But there's still a lot of work.

It is really hard to get folks who are not working with, you know, individuals with mental illness every day to understand that, you know, of the 585 people we serve on a day to day basis, you know, they're all wonderful people who are just working to try to be better versions of themselves every single day.

So, well, let me ask Phillip about this question.

And Phillip kind of alluded to this and talking about his years as a Clubhouse member of the Fountain Clubhouse, he's also a board member there.

This idea that, you know, you weren't judged at all the moment you walked in, you felt welcome.

But society isn't always that way.

And emails to say that, it doesn't it doesn't always go well for people who do get a diagnosis.

And it feels pretty isolating.

Can you just describe a little bit about, what your concerns are about the way people with, with mental illness of various types might be ostracized, set aside by society?

It's kind of like, you know, being branded, you know, like a tattoo.

Like it's not going to go.

Simpson is not going to go away.

Every time you look at your arm, is there, and it's piled on by parts of society that, you know, may a they may not fully understand what it's like, to have a mental health diagnosis or, you know, they may be consumed with, you know, misrepresentations by, you know, social media, by newspaper, television, you know, whatever.

Their own, you know, upbringing, you know, could be, a source, you know, a stigma.

And as let's, point out to this, unfortunately can grow into, you know, discrimination, prejudice, racism.

The other, isms which unfortunately has brought on, physical and, emotional, violence.

So, you know, left on their stigma to me is that's left unchecked.

It can and has led to some very dark times, in American history.

So, it's very important and all that we do and say that we first show compassion.

Now, what I mean by compassion, it's even we, we physically like, don't feel it.

You know, we can still, you know, a stand up olive branch and say hi to someone like, I'm sorry, we don't know what that person is going through, but I think some see a little as saying hello.

Hi.

Welcome in, change a person's life.

It's really changed minds.

As I alluded to earlier, when I first walk through outhouse doors.

You know, in most cases in, saying hello or hi, hello, welcome.

Those types of words, you know, could change a person's life in ways that we may not even know for months or years to come.

But I think it really kind of starts with that.

Phillip, are we becoming a kinder country or a coarser, meaner country?

I think where, our hurt and broken country, we've gone through, so much just in the past, you know, ten years alone, you know, and, you know, the Covid pandemic, you know, you know, we're millions and millions of people have been, you know.

Staying in place and away from, you know, their physical communities, you know, found house was obviously no different from that, a virtual community, that, you know, similar to the physical brick and mortar Clubhouse was formed to not interrupt, you know, that in-house community that, you know, we got so accustomed to, you know, that's how we got by.

But unfortunately, a lot of people, you know, did not have that avenue to go to.

You know, they stayed isolated, you know, in their homes, or what have you, and, you know, public education and, you know, school children.

Well, without, you know, you know, their peer spaces.

So, we become really, like, just broken, and it may come off as being like, you know, mean and vindictive, I get it, but I think all that stems for the fact that, you know, we've been, like, hurt by the pandemic, by, increases and, our cost of utilities, housing, groceries, like, all these things, has resulted and a significant increase of people, you know, visiting, you know, mental health, you know, clinics and facilities.

I think, going back to April 2021, there was a study done that suggests that 40% there was a 40% increase, and, and mental health, you know, patients, you know, and it's because, you know, you know, the pandemic, you know, that was a huge point six years ago.

So, I would say that, I think what we're a broken country, that is in desperate need of healing, of reconciliation with, one another, with institutions.

Alex Baldassare, do you think as a country, we're becoming kinder or more coarse and perhaps crueler?

It's a good question, Evan.

And I think, Phillip just gave a great answer.

I would continue on that path saying that we're in repair.

I think that we're forever in repair.

I think dating back to the origins of this country.

We're in repair.

Right.

And I think that for us, it's incumbent upon us to be able to not just be mindful and aware of not just that history, most recent and all the way back to the beginning, but also it's important to bear in mind to ensure that we are going to get to where we want to be.

And I think that with respect to what we're talking about today, even with Clubhouse, it doesn't, you know, fall deaf upon us.

Just what this most recent investment made by New York State means, not just to the folks of New York that need services that can work, that have been asked for and now are there, you know, in line to receive them, but realistically, to showcase the rest of this country as well, what it means to make a public investment into a model that works, to be able to really ensure that folks that are living with serious mental illness aren't just discarded, aren't just becoming that next nasty chapter in this history.

And instead that we have done exactly what Phillip just said, reconciled this not just in service of, but side by side with.

And I think that that's something that we're deeply, deeply not just grateful for, but incredibly helpful for, on this, path to repair and recovery.

I appreciate to the point you make, Alex, about our history.

And I feel like we're at a kind of a strange pivot point.

We're kind of making a choice about what our deeply held values are.

And I don't mean to make this political.

This is not really meant to be a political statement.

Although I am thinking about some of the things that people like Stephen Miller have said in recent months where he has said that, the current administration views the world as a dangerous place, and it's the kind of the law of the jungle, and it's kill or be killed and, and, you know, might making right and using your power to exert your authority.

We had a phone call yesterday from, I think, a really well-intended person who I appreciate the fact that he called.

But, you know, he also talked about, you know, the way the animal kingdom there's it's a lot of violence.

And I just feel like this is a good moment to decide to assert intentionally that what sets us apart as a species is that we don't have to do that, that we actually can exist through cooperation, through reconciliation, to take a word from Phillip or conciliation and, and bridge building.

I don't know that it has to always be.

I'm not naive.

A force and danger does exist in the world.

Probably always will.

But I don't know, Alex.

This is what, to me, it feels like we are at a hinge point and having to choose, if we truly value people and we'll, we'll maybe champion the idea that what sets us apart is that we don't choose to behave in certain ways when we can, if that makes sense.

Certainly makes sense.

I mean, it's what we've been talking about this entire time, right?

Community.

You're choosing to be in community with.

Right.

And I think that we need concerted and intentional spaces that don't just promote that, but ensure it safely, meaningfully, again, intentionally, but also call coauthored by I think that that's something to, we can really fall into.

And God knows that I've done it before, just, casting judgment on something before actually taking a moment to, realistically understand it.

Especially when talking about folks living with SMI.

Right.

We were just talking a second ago.

I can't recall if it was before the break or just when we got back, but stigma, right?

Yeah, I can talk about my own experience.

I'm one of four brothers, have a Puerto Rican Italian background, had a loving family growing up.

We didn't have the language, you know, to even talk about what we were going through, mentally, emotionally and just having been given the opportunity and privilege to work at Fountain House, within my own tribe, I've seen that change just simply from the exposure to, and one of the best pieces of advice I've ever given at fountain House was actually my second day, which was, Hey, just relax.

Everybody here is going to know your name before they, you know, theirs.

Don't worry about it.

And you're probably thinking right now, you can't tell the difference between members and staff.

Good that means it's working.

And to me, that just sums it up in a nutshell with respect to this turning point, Evan.

Because in truth, what we're talking about is trust and belief in our fellow and in ourselves.

And that's something that for us, if we can do that not just from an ivory tower or in the heart of Manhattan, but seeing that take grassroots investment, the work that Jamie's doing out in the East House, but also the six other awardees across the, the state of New York and the countless others that, again, are taking that courageous first step to really take a crack at this thing that we know works well.

We just want them to hear loud and clear that Fountain House is here to support you.

However, you need to be supported in that effort.

And it's not just me saying that.

It's also Phillip saying the.

And it's so many others that have been through this, and know that it works and are really dedicated to seeing it work elsewhere.

New York State's Office of Mental Health has supported this new money, $6.6 million for, these programs that will happen in Rochester and in other communities across the state.

So, Liz Breier, as we get ready to wrap, Patrick had asked us just to make sure that we kind of reset for people who've been listening but still want to make sure they understand, how would you?

In closing, describe who Clubhouses are for, for Clubhouses or for anyone, to be honest, because community means different things to different people.

But I think historically, Clubhouses are there to support folks and create community or continued community for people who have, you know, more traditionally been diagnosed with a severe and persistent mental illness, who have had some level of system involvement, who have not been welcomed by society as a whole, who maybe don't have the natural supports that others do.

You know, family, friends, to turn to in the immediate, because it's really about creating opportunities and hope.

Recovery is based and built on the concept of hope.

You know, and people need to see it, know that it's possible network with other people who are doing it, both, you know, in the day to day and in the long term.

So, the office of Mental Health is really happy to be, supporting these initiatives to see Clubhouses take off around the state.

I think it's going to be huge.

You know, Fountain House, of course, is a leader in this in in all that they've done, for a very long time.

But it's exciting to see again.

And thanks to Governor Hochul, it's exciting to see what the possibilities are going to be and what that looks like in different parts of the state as well.

You know, I am a New York City, Staten Island born and raised.

So I know what New York City's energy is like.

I'm excited to see what that energy looks like in other parts of the state, as well as they're creating what community looks like for them.

So, Rochester, I can't wait to come visit you can see see what what it looks like.

Well, as we look forward to another conversation with you as these move forward, the Chief Advocacy Officer for the New York State Office of Mental Health.

You are generous with your time in this program.

Thank you for being on the program today, Liz.

Thanks for having me.

Let me thank the guests from Fountain House.

Alex Baldassare, the senior director of Strategic Growth.

Thank you, Alex.

Thank you.

Have a nice to get to know.

The Reverend Doctor Philip Fleming, who's been a member at Fountain House for a number of years, is a board member there.

Philip, thanks for sharing your story today.

Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to do this.

Great having you and Jamie Comenale.

Chief program officer at East House.

I know we talk often.

We'll see you very soon, and we'll have plenty to talk about.

I know you got a lot of work to do in this community.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

We got more Connections coming up in a moment.

Oh.

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