- Once again, we're joined by Batya Ungar-Sargon who is an author and Deputy Opinions Editor at Newsweek.

Batya, good to see you again.

- Thanks so much for having me back.

- Your perspectives are interesting, compelling, and we also make sure we put up on the screen a way for people to connect with you and read more about your work.

Question, you have said that the 2022 elections, there are many messages in it, but the one of the areas that I wanna follow up on is this, you said, "When it comes to race and voting patterns, 20% of Black people are now voting Republican because more and more African-Americans, you argue, are rejecting the Democratic party as, quote, the party of the poor."

Explain that.

- Yeah.

It's very interesting.

When you talk to Black men and Hispanic men who don't have a college degree increasingly you're hearing this message where what they're craving is a message about autonomy, good jobs, respect, and those are not things that they feel that the Democratic party is on offer.

There was a great piece in the New York Times that was speaking to a lot of Hispanic men, and the overarching message that they were getting there was the Democratic party is the party of the poor and we don't wanna be poor.

And I think that that is a real trend that you're starting to see emerge today.

The Democratic party now gets 65% of the votes of people who make over $500,000 a year.

So they get that sort of overeducated elite on the left but they also get a lot of poor voters.

But what they're missing is the people that used to be their base, which is the working class, people who don't have a college degree, but who work hard, often at multiple jobs because they're trying to make it in an economy that is not built for working Americans.

And I think the more that we understand that that the real divide in this country is not about race, it's about class, it's about whether you have that college degree and thus have that economy that works for you, the knowledge industry, or do not have that college degree, you're in the working class and then you're downwardly mobile.

That is the real divide here.

- Batya, here's what I wanna follow up on.

You're implying that the Republican party as it currently stands, particularly in Washington, represents something that those who happen to be minorities and at the lower income level can relate to.

But the former president, the titular head of the Republican party, Donald Trump is meeting with white supremacists and saying I don't know who that is.

These are people who have espoused incredibly racist views.

It's not isolated.

Point being, what exactly do the folks you're talking about who happen to be in the minority community relate to in that regard?

Because Donald Trump is still the titular head of that party.

- You know, unfortunately in this country, caring about a candidate's character is a privilege and a luxury that if you're living in a community that is being decimated by fentanyl, you just don't have that luxury.

That's what I found in my reporting.

To care about character is a luxury and a privilege that if you are working three jobs and struggling to feed your kids, you don't have.

And I think that that is something I really wish people on the left would understand.

Yeah, Trump sat down with anti-Semites and white nationalists.

It's disgusting and deplorable.

- And January 6th happened and?

- January 6th, deplorable.

Yes.

- Okay.

- He proved all of his haters.

- But you're saying that's a luxury to care about that?

- I'm saying he proved his haters right on character again and again and again.

- Okay.

- But his economic policy, if you look at the impact it had on the working class, you can't take that away.

His economic agenda was the kind of things Bernie Sanders was pushing for as recently as 2015, because he understood that this is what helps working Americans.

I'm talking about getting rid of NAFTA.

I'm talking about starting a trade war with China.

I'm talking about tariffs on steel and aluminum which protect working class jobs that pay $90,000 a year.

He was the first president to do that in 40 years.

Right?

- And Democrats espouse what?

I mean when the Democrats, Joe Biden together with the Democrats in Congress together with some Republicans pass an historic piece of legislation that provides federal aid to working families for childcare, for infrastructure.

That means what?

That does not appeal to folks you're talking about?

- The folks I'm talking about don't want handouts from the government.

They want good jobs.

They want to earn a dignified living on their own.

And neither party is really offering that.

But that's what Trump was really speaking to despite all of his manifold character flaws that's what he was offering.

Not the trickle down of Mitch McConnell and the free marketeers on the right, and not the welfare state of the left, but the opportunity to have a good job that pays a decent living wage.

- Batya you have argued that the American dream, the phrase was coined back in the 1930s, that it's redefined to mean something very different today.

Talk about that.

- I really do think that the Democrats have given up on the American dream.

So instead of, you know, building housing and being the side that represents building housing so that a working class family can buy their own home and be part of the middle class, they talk about building housing for homeless people.

They talk about public housing.

They talk about, you know, the fact that people should be, you know, more comfortable renting.

That's the message that you get.

They've given up on the American dream.

They want universal basic income.

They want the government to be supporting people instead of having people be self-sufficient.

- You're talking about socialism, about to....

Excuse me for interrupting.

You're talking about a socialist agenda and while there is social security and there are a whole range of social safety net policies and programs, isn't that a wing of the Democratic party versus the mainstream Democratic party?

- I think if you look at, okay.

Where would you put universal free pre-K?

Is that in the socialist wing or is that mainstream?

I think that's pretty mainstream.

When you talk to working class Americans they don't want that.

What they want is for a husband to be able to make a living wage so that his wife can stay home when the kids are young.

- Well, what about a single mom?

- Nobody's offering that.

- What does she want?

Doesn't she want childcare?

- There are definitely people who need welfare who need that support from the government.

But what the Democrats want is to expand the number of people who need that help.

And increasingly what Black and Hispanic Americans are rejecting is that because they don't want to be in that category that needs help.

They wanna be in the category that can help themselves.

And again, neither party's offering that.

You don't get that with trickle down economics that's on the side of corporations.

And you don't get that with welfare.

You get that with a strong working class and an economic agenda that's catered to making sure that they can make a living wage.

- 30 seconds left.

How do you believe the issues you're talking about play out in 2024?

- I think the Democrats need to really regain their focus on the working class especially Black and Hispanic working class Americans.

Black Americans have unique challenges that no party is addressing, and I think whoever cares the most about that community and shows up for them is gonna do very well in 2024.

I really hope that it's a fight between both parties rather than what we've seen which is both parties giving up on the Black community.

- And if Donald Trump is the nominated Republican party?

- He won't be the nominee.

He won't be the nominee.

- You're convinced of that?

- Yes.

- Batya Ungar-Sargon, author and Deputy Opinions Editor at Newsweek.

Batya, thank you so much.

Thought provoking, challenging and have us all thinking.

And again, people can log onto your website to find out more about you.

Thank you, Batya.

Appreciate it.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- You gotta stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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