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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] Everything Jacqui, we ever wanted or needed to know about some of New Jersey's past governors.

We talked to David Wildstein for much of this program from New Jersey Globe.

About whom, Jacqui?

- Well, three New Jersey governors from 1947 to 1970.

We have Governor Alfred Driscoll, Governor Robert Meyner, and Governor Richard J. Hughes.

So he's talking about each one of those.

And then on the back end, we look at a 2012 interview you did with John Wefing who wrote the book, The Life and Times of Richard J. Hughes.

So we get really more in depth.

- You say it, see what happens.

Right there.

- There it is.

There it is.

So we get more in depth about Richard Hughes on the backend.

- Yeah, and PS by the way of background.

Jacqui, remember I told you that I did a half hour special, way back in the day with the Caucus Educational Corporation on The Life and Times of Richard J. Hughes.

We couldn't even find it, right?

Or the... - Well yeah, but sadly - It was so old.

- No, we found it.

But the...

It was curled, like the tape.

The actual tape itself was damaged and there was no way to get the footage off of it.

Very sad, I know.

- Is that your way of saying, That's your way of saying, I've been in the business too long Jacqui.

Don't worry, I understand.

Don't worry.

You'll be in the seat.

- There are many variations of tapes and digital.

- I got it.

Jacqui, don't worry.

You'll be in the seat soon enough.

So here we go.

So we talk about Alfred Driscoll.

Now, people go, so why do I need to know about Driscoll?

New Jersey lives under a 1947 Constitution.

Yes, so what.

Well, Driscoll was the governor, when that constitution was ratified.

Why does it matter?

Because before '47, the Governor in New Jersey was weak.

They had a weak Governor who couldn't really get much done.

The constitution of '47, strong governor.

Line item veto, you take anything out of the budget.

Legislators had nothing to say about it.

The strongest governor in the nation constitutionally in New Jersey, Alfred Driscoll had a lot to do with that.

Robert Minor 44th Governor.

Jacqui, anything about Meyner that hit you in that interview with Wildstein?

- He really was well known for the infrastructure and development that he did around the state.

But I thought too, something that we didn't hit upon is that he was in the military as well.

Which I think is significant.

And you know, his religion really did play a big role in his governorship and what he wanted to do during the time that he was governor.

- That's interesting 'cuz, I never even thought about the religion piece of that, people forget, when they talk about John F. Kennedy in 1960 never had a Catholic president of the United States.

His Catholicism was a big issue.

Would you be loyal to the Pope or to the Constitution?

So Robert Meyner, a religion issue there.

But also with Richard J. Hughes.

Talk about religion.

- Well, yeah, he wanted to be.

At one point he wanted to be a Roman Catholic priest, right.

- That's what I mean.

- I heard that as well.

- Talk about separation of Church and State Jacqui, that's not separating Church and State.

- Maybe it wasn't as important back then as it is today.

- But it's a big deal.

It, is a big deal.

And Richard Hughes and I was honored to interview the Governor.

The late Governor and former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court John Wefing, talks about that as well.

Jacqui, we're just setting it all up right now?

- Yeah, yeah, we're just setting up this really important half hour talking about three New Jersey governors who really mattered, and we should remember for various different reasons that David Wildstein helps us.

- And Jacqui, the interview with John Wefing from 2012.

Back then they did have videotape the you can restore.

Just confirm that.

- We have that one on digital, Steve.

Don't worry.

- Let's check out three extraordinary important Governors of New Jersey.

- We're now joined by New Jersey's iconic political historian, David Wildstein, editor of New Jersey Globe.

Check out their website, find out everything you need to know about politics in the state.

Good to see you, David.

- Hey Steve.

How are you?

- Doing great.

Hey, listen, you've joined us on Remember Them before.

Today we remember three very significant New Jersey governors, Alfred Driscoll, 43rd governor of the state, Robert B.

Minor, governor Minor, 44th, and finally the 45th, Richard J. Hughes.

Let's start with Alfred Driscoll.

What made Alfred Driscoll, served from 47 to 54, a very memorable governor of the state?

- So he was the architect of the modern day New Jersey Constitution.

New Jersey had a const.. - 1947.

- Yeah, 1947.

I mean the other constitution had been done in the early 1800's.

It was outdated.

New Jersey had a weak governor.

A governor served a three year term and they were not allowed to succeed themselves.

Driscoll wanted a strong governor, and he wanted a governor to be able to serve two four year terms.

So he called a constitutional convention.

And you know, that's a risky thing when you get your bunch of people in and everybody's got an interest.

But these were men of gravitas.

I say men, because there were no women that were delegates in 1947.

But these men got together and they created a document that the state governs by now, that has the strongest governor in the United States, the strongest legislative leaders in the United States and the strongest chief justice of a Supreme Court.

And that was all due to Governor Driscoll.

- So let's be clear, one of the things about, several things about the 1947 constitution, but one of them was governor would serve a four year term, the governor could run for reelection if he or she chose to.

But the other piece and I know this, David as a former state representative and legislator, the governor at the time, governor Tom Kean had line item veto power.

- Yeah.

- Tell everyone what that means.

So the constitution said the governor could take a red pen out, I have a red pen somewhere.

The governor could take a red pen out, take a line item out of the budget, and that was it.

It was dead.

That had not existed before 1947, fair?

- That's correct.

That's correct.

And that gave the governor a lot of checks over the legislature.

You remember the things, we used to call them Christmas tree items where legislators would put nice little gifts.

- I know nothing of which you speak.

- Nothing at all.

Nothing at all.

And that was the governor's ability to check the legislature and say, well, we're not going to do that in the budget and just knock it out.

And there was nothing anybody can do about it.

- Yeah.

And by the way, I wanna thank Governor Kean at the time, in the mid 1980s when I was in the legislature for taking his red pen out as often as he did to line items, some of mine items out.

- Yeah.

That's the problem with the targeted district.

Right.

- But a great governor, and we check out some of our interviews with Governor Kean.

We will have him back to just put things in perspective.

So let, let's move on.

I wanna talk a little bit about Robert Meyner, 44th governor of the state served 1954 to 1962.

He's known for many things, but revitalizing the Democratic Party.

What was going on with the Democratic Party David?

- He did.

You had Governor Driscoll who was the first two term governor, the most powerful governor.

And he had it at a time, post World War II.

Where government was getting larger and there were more government projects.

It was, New Jersey was in a situation where it was becoming a Republican state.

Meyner brought that back.

And he was just a.. - Driscoll was a Republican.

- Driscoll was a Republican, Meyner was a Democrat.

Meyner won unexpectedly.

He wasn't supposed to win.

The Republican candidate did something, some people say now is a little dumb, he sent a letter to Tom Dewey asking to commute the sentence of a.. - You're talking about prosecutor Tom Dewey.

- Right, in New York.

- Of 1948 Dewey beats Truman.

I'm just, you know, that has nothing to do with anything, but go ahead.

- Yeah, yeah.

But, so this guy, you know, a labor leader convicted on racketeering charges, Republican candidate for governor, sends a letter to Governor Dewey saying, I think you should commute his sentence.

New Jersey reporters get that, and that propelled Meyner into being sort of an accidental governor.

- And Meyner during those terms, that term between 1954 and 1962 expanded the turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike.

How about this, established Green Acres open space program?

Put that into context because people refer to Green Acres as if yeah, it was always there.

Not the case, David.

- No, it wasn't.

And this was called, the time that Meyner was in office, it was called the Rubber and Concrete era.

More people were buying cars.

You had for the first time lots of women driving cars so you had more cars on the road.

You had an economy that required New Jersey to expand its highway system and infrastructure in municipalities connecting everything together.

And Minor looked at it and said, well if we're gonna build all these roads and highways, we need to put aside some open space.

Or somebody 50 years from now is gonna wake up and say this entire state is paved with concrete and there's no trees here.

- I wanna be clear, a governor, elected official, thinking about the future.

Interesting.

That was Robert Meyner.

Hey, the last governor we're gonna look at in this segment, by the way, check out, we're gonna do an entire half hour dedicated to the recently late and very significant governor of the state, Jim Florio, who we remember and David will be part of that special as well.

But we, let's look at Richard J. Hughes, 45th Governor of the State, 1962 to 1970, governor and also Chief Justice of the State Supreme Court, 1973 to 1979.

So many things we need to remember Governor Hughes for but is the most significant the role of the state and the role of Hughes as governor during the rebellion slash riots of 1967 in my hometown, Newark, New Jersey.

- Yeah.

I mean, that was a big part of his governorship.

And as a political junkie, I've enjoyed going on to the Lyndon Johnson library site and you can hear the phone conversations between LBJ and Governor Hughes talking about the riots.

Hughes was completely engaged.

I think he moved into a hotel in Newark for a couple days just to be there.

- He did.

So, hold on.

You're talking about Governor Hughes calling the president of the United States, Lyndon Johnson.

Is this about the National Guard and whether or not to send them in?

- It was.

It was about the National Guard.

It was about, Johnson was, Johnson, as everybody knows, was a micromanager and worked the phones all day long.

And he and Hughes were talking constantly through those riots to make sure that it was contained within a certain area and wasn't gonna spread and wasn't gonna become sort of a national issue.

- But it was a national issue and 26 people-- - When I say a national issue I mean that there weren't, the number of riots were not gonna expand exponentially to more cities than they were in across the country.

- Let me ask you this because we're also gonna talk on the back end of this.

We're gonna do something with John Wefing who is a constitutional legal scholar talking about chief justice Hughes.

But what's interesting, it's very rare for a governor of any state, even particularly in New Jersey to become the chief justice of the Supreme Court.

Fair to say?

- Absolutely.

And it was extraordinary circumstances.

The newly appointed chief justice Pierre Garvin was Bill Cahill's, chief counsel.

- Bill Cahill, previous governor.

Go ahead.

- Bill Cahill, who followed Hughes.

- Followed him, right.

Followed Hughes.

- Get's the point.

Joe Waintraub was retiring.

He puts in his guy, his chief counsel as the Chief Justice, Pierre Garvin was 44 years old.

He was Chief Justice for I think less than two months.

And had a stroke and he died.

And here we are in the midst of gubernatorial election.

And this bright legal mind is not gonna head the court.

That was not gonna be Cahill's legacy.

Brendan Byrne at this point is now on his way to becoming governor.

And Cahill was a little bit of a statesman here.

He said, I'm not gonna just jam a new guy through in lame duck.

He could have, he had a Republican senate until he left office.

But he said, I'm gonna consult with Democrats.

And he appointed Dick Hughes as the chief justice.

I mean, imagine today?

- Unheard of.

- Yeah.

And I can't imagine it happening again.

- Think about this folks, a Republican governor Cahill, William Cahill who winds up losing reelection, if I'm not mistaken David right?

- Cahill lost the primary, yeah - He lost the primary to Sandman.

But here's the thing.

He nominates a Democrat, a previous Democratic governor to be the head of the state Supreme Court.

Just think about that at that time, the year is 1973 to 1979, it would never happen today.

There was a degree of bipartisanship.

But as David Wildstein rightfully points out, a great degree of statesmanship on the part of the Republican Governor, Cahill.

Hey, David, cannot thank you enough.

And by the way, check out the New Jersey Globe website to find out everything going on politically in the state, but also some political historical stuff as well.

And also, David will be joining us for the half hour as we remember the Honorable James Florio.

David, always good to see you, my friend.

- Thanks Steve.

- Great stuff.

We'’ll be back after this.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- Sometimes people serve in public life and they don't get enough attention, respect, or won't appreciate their accomplishments.

The gentleman you're about to meet has tried to rectify that situation, particularly as it relates to former Chief Justice and Governor Richard Hughes.

He is John Wefing, and he is the author of "The Life and Times of Richard J. Hughes: The Politics of Civility."

Also, John Wefing is a professor of law at Seton Hall University Law School.

Good to see you, John.

- Good to see you, Steve.

- John, you were with us many years ago on our sister program "Caucus: New Jersey," we've known you for a long time.

And I will tell you that we also spent a lot of time early on in our career, I sat down with Chief Justice and former Governor Richard Hughes and did a half hour public television documentary.

I found him to be an amazing guy.

What is the most significant thing that you found about the governor and the chief justice that we should know?

- Well, I think it was his incredible ability to do so many different things and to treat everyone with great respect.

The subtitle of the book is "The Politics of Civility," and I think today when we're so lacking in civility in our political life, that he stands as a beacon of someone who could get along.

One of his, well, you might think a rival, who was the president of the senate, who was a Republican during part of Hughes' term, refers to him as his hero in politics.

He just was able to cross party lines, because he was such a warm and outgoing person, and he enjoyed meeting people, and he had an incredible memory for names.

And everybody knew that when he gave his word, he meant it.

And he stood up for so many principles of devotion, both to his religion, to his Democratic party.

He was just a terrific guy.

I got to be known as the education governor because of what we did.

New State Colleges and powerful community college system, three medical schools instead of none and things like that.

And where I learned that was in these backyard talks was the parents of children say in Bergen County or other suburban counties.

I went there in my ignorance thinking that the top public issue was law enforcement, transportation.

Wasn't at all.

All the people cared about was education, college medicine and dentistry.

Quarreled with people about slum eradication and various things put up by a lot of the black population in Newark.

And actually, the professionals wanted very much to have that College of Medicine and Dentistry established in Summit or some nice, comfortable suburban town.

But I felt that it belonged right in the heart of Newark.

-When I talked to Richard Hughes, one of the things that struck me, several things.

First of all, his wife Betty was a big influence, right?

- She certainly was.

- And Richard Hughes lost both of his wives.

- [John] That's correct.

That's correct.

- A lot of personal tragedy in his life.

- A lot of personal tragedy.

He lost a grandchild, as well.

His first wife died when she was in her mid to late thirties.

His second wife died much later, but was still 10 years younger than Hughes and died 10 years before he did.

- [Steve] And you know, again, we're talking about as governor, there were very important things that Richard Hughes did, but also as chief justice.

Let's do as governor.

When I was a little kid in Newark, I think I was 8, 1967 riots in the city of Newark.

It tore our city apart.

- [John] Absolutely.

- [Steve] And it was an issue for the state and for the federal government to be involved in.

I believe 28 people were killed.

- [John] That's correct.

- [Steve] The governor at the time, Richard Hughes, had to make some very tough decisions as to how to deal with that riot.

What did he do?

- [John] Well, for the first two days of the riots he stayed in Trenton, because the mayor felt that he was handling the situation.

It got really bad the second night, and Hughes received a call from the mayor at about three o'clock in the morning.

Hughes immediately, in response to the need expressed by the mayor, sent in the state troopers.

And he himself went into the city and was right in the, took over command, really, of the situation.

And unfortunately, it was already pretty bad at that time, and but yet he was able to meet with some of the leaders of the groups that were causing the riots.

And by being willing to meet with them, he helped to diffuse the situation.

And eventually, he called off the state police and the National Guard.

And eventually, it got peaceful, even though some of the police officials wanted to continue the police presence.

- [Steve] I remember that.

Martin Luther King called me from Tampa during that riot, and he offered to come up here with 50 of his young men with badges on their arms, peacekeepers.

And I forbid him to come come because I thought he would have been assassinated here if he came to Newark.

There was a very ugly feeling in Newark on the part of the whites as well as the blacks.

All kinds of rumors.

People in cars with dynamite in them coming from South Amboy and untrue stuff like that.

There were people trying to make things worse.

They were bad enough as it was, and we lost 26 people, most of them innocent, just caught in the crossfire.

The other case as a chief justice, I remember when I talked to him about this it was the Karen Ann Quinlan case.

- Absolutely.

- She was on life support?

- She was on life support.

She was on a respirator.

She was in what they call a persistent vegetative state.

- [Steve] A young girl.

- A young girl in her early twenties.

- [Steve] And her parents had petitioned the court to allow them to let her die with dignity.

- That's correct.

- And the case went before the supreme court.

- Right.

- And Chief Justice Hughes told me at the time in that public television interview that it was his wife Betty who influenced him to make a move.

What was that?

- Well, it was that the, well, the court had to decide that very serious case, because no state court in the country, nor the US Supreme Court, had ever dealt with the issue of the right to die.

- [Steve] New Jersey was the first.

- The very first, and it was a case that was followed internationally.

- [Steve] Precedent setting.

- Precedent setting.

When the US Supreme Court finally, many years later, dealt with a right to die case, they referred to the Quinlan case as the seminal case in the history of the right to die.

- [Steve] What did Chief Justice Hughes do?

- He wrote an opinion.

Probably, perhaps most importantly, he was able to gain the support of all the members of the court.

He wanted it to be a unanimous opinion.

And he worked and worked to convince all of the justices to agree.

He felt it was such a monumental opinion that they had to be unanimous - And the decision was to allow her to die.

- [John] To allow her to die.

Well, essentially, to allow the parents as guardians for her, in conjunction with ethics committee at the hospital, to make the decision to let her go.

Amazingly, despite that, when they removed the life support system, she did not die, and she lived for many years.

The parents never went back to ask for removal of the feeding tube, which was also there.

- [Steve] What's interesting is the real quick part of that, is that he told me that Betty, his wife, said, 'cause he wasn't writing the decision, and he was sitting there, and I don't know where they were, and she said, you owe it to her parents to do this.

- Absolutely.

He had a scheduled trip to Japan to give a speech in Japan, and she told them they can wait.

You sit down and write - [Steve] He took out that legal pad and he wrote it.

He told me that.

- He wrote the opinion.

Exactly.

- [Steve] What else in the time we have left, John, the most significant things about the former governor and chief justice that we should know?

- Well, everything from the first creation of the county college system was done during his time.

He created the first public defender system in the state.

- [Steve] For people who couldn't afford an attorney.

- [John] That's correct.

He was very involved in solving the problems of the Hackensack Meadowlands Commission that led, of course, to the creation of Giants Stadium and the arena, and that was very important for the state.

He also played some international roles.

He was part of a, he organized a meeting between Premier Kosygin of the USSR and Lyndon Johnson.

- [Steve] Was that down at Glassboro?

- [John] It was in Glassboro, correct.

- It was a historic meeting.

- [John] A historic meeting, absolutely.

- [Steve] Particularly at that time.

- At that time, exactly.

- [Steve] He was close to LBJ, no.

- [John] He was extremely close to LBJ.

That started in part through the fact that the only time New Jersey had a national convention - [Steve] 1964, Atlantic City.

- [John] 1964, Atlantic City, absolutely.

Good memory.

And that of course, was where Lyndon Johnson was chosen.

He was of course, sitting as president at the time, and he was nominated to run again, and Hughes as host of that convention became very close to him.

- I got to ask you before you get out of here, John, by the way, go out and by the book it's called, "The Life and Times of Richard J. Hughes: The Politics of Civility," written by our good friend, John Wefing at Seton Hall University Law School.

Richard Hughes, with his personality and style, and the civil nature in which he communicated and dealt with people, could he succeed in politics today in the hard-edged, partisan, vicious cable television world we live in?

- I think it would be difficult.

He might be able to overcome those problems, but it would be difficult.

- [Steve] Too classy a guy, no?

- Very classy guy.

- [Steve] Yeah, he also didn't destroy, or trash and burn his opponents in the process.

- [John] No.

No.

One time, when somebody didn't carry out what he had agreed to do, one of the senators who had said he would support an income tax at one point, everybody told him, we have to retaliate.

Hughes said, no, that's not the way I operate.

I'll need him in the future, actually.

- [Steve] A real gentleman.

A class act.

- Absolutely.

- [Steve] Both former governor and chief justice, and you too as well, professor.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G, NJM Insurance Group.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Let'’s be healthy together.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Prudential Financial.

The Russell Berrie Foundation.

And by Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by The New Jersey Business & Industry Association.

And by BestofNJ.com.

NJM Insurance Group has been serving New Jersey businesses for over a century.

As part of the Garden State, we help companies keep their vehicles on the road, employees on the job and projects on track, working to protect employees from illness and injury, to keep goods and services moving across the state.

We're proud to be part of New Jersey.

NJM, we've got New Jersey covered.