Laura: BILL DEBUYS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME TO  TALK ABOUT THE NEW BOOK.

IN THIS YOU EXPLORE SOME IDEAS  OF EARTH CARE AND THIS NOTION OF NOT TRYING TO SAVE THE  EARTH BUT CARE FOR IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING  ME.

I AM REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS  CONVERSATION TODAY.

deBuys: IT IS A PLEASURE TO  BE WITH YOU LAURA, AS ALWAYS.

Laura: YOU JOINED THE  MEDICAL TEAM CHECKING THROUGH REMOTE VILLAGES IN NEPAL.

ALONG THE WAY YOU'RE SEEING SIGNS OF CHANGE, INCLUDING  CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND YOU SEEM TO BE MULLING  OVER THIS IDEA OF HOSPICE CARE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A  LITTLE BIT.

deBuys: WELL, THE VALUES OF  THE MEDICAL TEAM I WAS ACCOMPANYING WERE THE VALUES  OF VERY FUNDAMENTAL MEDICINE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO  X-RAYS OR SCANS OR BLOOD WORK, LET ALONE, SURGERY.

SO, THE SERVICE DELIVERED WAS VERY DIRECT.

IT WAS CARE OVER CURE.

IT WAS WARM HAND TO WARM HAND.

AND I WONDERED GOING INTO THE TREK WHETHER THOSE VALUES OF  CARING MORE THAN FIXING WOULD BE GOOD VALUES TO APPLY TO  EARTH CARE.

THIS BOOK IS A THIRD BOOK IN A TRILOGY.

THE FIRST BOOK, A GREAT ARIDNESS IS ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE SECOND, THE LAST UNICORN, LOOKS INTO THE TERRIBLE  SITUATION OF WILDLIFE AND THE LOSS OF BIODIVERSITY.

AND AFTER DOING THOSE TWO BOOKS I WAS KIND OF HEART SICK  AND I WAS LOOKING FOR A WAY TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THE FACTS  OF THESE DIRE SITUATIONS DIRECTLY AND NOT LOSE HEART,  NOT BE TOO DISCOURAGED, NOT BECOME NUMB OR CYNICAL OR EVEN  JUST SHUT DOWN.

BUT STAY COMMITTED, NOT LOSE  HEART.

SO, THIS BOOK IS ABOUT MY  JOURNEY TRYING TO FIND A WAY NOT TO LOSE HEART, BUT TO SORT  OF GAIN HEART AND RECOMMIT TO THE WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE  DONE.

Laura: YOU WROTE IN THIS  BOOK, LET'S BE REAL WE DON'T LIVE IN A GENTLE HOLLOW SCENE  ANYMORE.

AND NO DOUBT THIS SUMMER HAS  PROVEN THAT AND THROUGHOUT THE BOOK YOU GRAPPLE WITH THIS  IDEA WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND EVENTUALLY IN THE  BOOK YOU WRITE, TO TRUST IN UNCERTAINTY OF THE FUTURE,  BELIEVING IN THE POSSIBILITY HOWEVER REMOTE OF BENEFICIAL  CHANGE, THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF HOPE.

I FEEL LIKE FOR ME PERSONALLY, THIS IDEA OF HOPE IT KIND OF  THROWS ME OFF SOMETIMES BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS  A SLOGAN, IF IT IS KIND OF AN INSINCERE PROMISE, IF IT  PREVENTS ME FROM MAYBE DOING WHAT I AM SUPPOSED TO DO.

AND SO I LOVED YOUR WRITING ABOUT HOPE IN THIS BOOK AND I  AM CURIOUS, WHY IS UNCERTAINTY OF NOT KNOWING WHAT MIGHT  HAPPEN SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF HOPE?

deBuys: THAT IS THE HEART OF IT IN A WAY.

AS YOU SAY, HOPE IS A REALLY COMPLICATED CONCEPT.

IT MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND OFTEN FOR  A LOT OF PEOPLE IT JUST MEANS, WILL THIS WORRY GO AWAY?

WILL THINGS GO BACK TO THE NICE WAY THEY USED TO BE?

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT IS OUT OF THE PICTURE FOR US TODAY.

BUT THE KIND OF HOPE THAT RELIES ON ENDURANCE ON BEING  OPEN AND PREPARED FOR THINGS TO TURN IN A POSITIVE WAY FOR  BENEFICIAL SURPRISE, THAT IS THE KIND OF HOPE THAT IS GOING  TO GET US THROUGH THE DILEMMAS WE ARE IN NOW.

IN A WAY, THIS QUEST OF MINE WAS LOOKING FOR NOT JUST AN  INTELLECTUAL HOPE, BUT A HOPE IN HERE.

A HOPE THAT SEEPS INTO YOUR WHOLE BEING.

Laura: YOU MENTIONED BENEFICIAL SURPRISE.

ARE THERE ANY EXAMPLES OF THOSE OUT THERE IN THE WORLD  RIGHT NOW OR THAT WE MIGHT LOOK FORWARD TO WHEN WE ARE  THINKING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE?

deBuys: WELL, SPECIFICALLY  ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE I DON'T KNOW.

ALL THE DATA LOOKS PRETTY NEGATIVE.

THE BIG BENEFICIAL CHANGE THAT I MENTIONED IN THE BOOK  ACTUALLY IS THAT OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION.

CIA DIDN'T SEE IT COMING.

NOBODY SAW IT COMING AND WHEN  IT CAME, IT CAME REALLY FAST.

AND SOME LEADERS, LIKE VACLAV  HAVEL, WHO IS ONE OF MY HEROS, WERE READY FOR IT BECAUSE THEY  HAD THE RIGHT KIND OF HOPE TO RESPOND TO THAT SURPRISE AS  POSITIVELY AS POSSIBLE AND MAKE SOMETHING REALLY GOOD OUT  OF IT, WHICH WAS THE VELVET REVOLUTION IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA.

Laura: I APPRECIATED READING THIS BOOK FOR LOTS OF  REASONS, THE HOPE, LOTS OF REASONS.

BUT, IN PARTICULAR, NOT HAVING LEFT NEW MEXICO SINCE BEFORE  THE PANDEMIC STARTED, I NEEDED TO GO ON THIS JOURNEY WITH YOU  THROUGH THE HIMALAYAS, BUT YOU HAVE LIVED IN NEW MEXICO FOR  FOUR DECADES NOW.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE  SIMILARITIES YOU NOTICED IN THE CHANGE THAT YOU ARE  SEEING, INCLUDING CLIMATE CHANGE, IN THE HIMALAYAS AND  HERE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO?

deBuys: WELL, ON THESE  JOURNEYS WE WERE MOSTLY ABOVE TIMBER LINE, BUT WHEN WE WERE  BELOW TIMBER LINE, THE FORESTS WERE SO SIMILAR.

THE PINE IN NEPAL UP TO ABOUT 11,000 FEET OR SO IS A PINE  VERY LIKE A PONDEROSA PINE, ANOTHER THREE NEEDLE PINE, AND  IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME TO SEE THAT THOSE TREES HAD THE  SAME HEALTH PROBLEMS THAT OUR TREES DO.

THE FOREST DYNAMIC OF DRYING, OF TOO MUCH HEAT, INSECT  OUTBREAKS, ALL THOSE THINGS SEEMED TO BE HAPPENING THERE  IN EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF PATTERN WE HAVE HERE.

AND IT WAS A MOUNTAIN WORLD.

I LIVE AS YOU KNOW AN HOUR  NORTH OF SANTA FE UP IN ONE OF THE SMALL VILLAGES OF NORTHERN  NEW MEXICO.

AND THE VILLAGE LIFE THERE AND  VILLAGE LIFE IN HIMALAYAS AND NEPAL IS NOT ALL THAT  DIFFERENT.

Laura: ONE OF THE IDEAS  THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN THE LAST UNICORN AND IT COMES UP  AGAIN IN YOUR NEW BOOK THAT HAS REALLY STUCK WITH ME OVER  THE YEARS IS THIS IDEA THAT WE SHARE THIS PLANET WITH ALL OF  THESE DIFFERENT SPECIES AND WE ARE JUST THIS LITTLE PLANET IN  A VAST UNIVERSE AND EVERY TIME WE ALLOW A SPECIES TO GO  EXTINCT, OUR PLANET BECOMES A LITTLE LONELIER.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT  IDEA AND HOW THAT IDEA EVOLVED IN YOU.

deBuys: ONE OF THE INSPIRING TEACHERS ON THIS  SUBJECT FOR ME IS NEW MEXICO PUEBLO INDIAN SCHOLAR, RINA  SWENTZELL FROM SANTA CLARA PUEBLO.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE MINI CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK IS TITLED  RINA.

I QUOTE HER AS SAYING, I'LL  GET THE QUOTE A LITTLE BIT WRONG HERE, BUT SHE IS SAYING,  OUR WORLD AS HUMANS HAS JUST BECOME TOO SMALL.

IT IS JUST US.

WE ARE ONLY THINKING ABOUT US  AND NOT ABOUT THE WHOLE COMMUNITY OF LIFE THROUGH  WHICH FLOWS THE WATER, WIND, BREATH, WHICH IN HER TELLING  SOUNDS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE THE DAO OF ANCIENT CHINA.

SHE WOULD SAY.

SHE IS GONE NOW, ALAS, BUT SHE  WOULD SAY OUR INVENTION OF AN ANTHROPOMORPHIC GOD MADE US  TOO ARROGANT, MADE US SEEING THE WORLD TOO NARROWLY AND WE  FORGET ABOUT THE WHOLE CREATION OF WHICH WE ARE A  PART WHICH IS REALLY THE MOST GLORIOUS THING ABOUT OUR LIFE  ON THIS PLANET IS THE CONNECTEDNESS OF ALL THOSE  THINGS.

Laura: LIKE YOU MENTIONED,  THIS BOOK IS THE THIRD IN A TRILOGY, A GREAT ARIDNESS, THE  LAST UNICOR.

THE GRADE ARIDNESS CAME OUT IN  2011.

I AM CURIOUS HOW YOUR WRITING  HAS CHANGED, HOW YOU BEAR WITNESS COMPARED WITH BACK IN  2011. deBuys: THAT IS A QUESTION  I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT, WHAT I WANT FROM THE READER.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS CHANGED FOR ME IS JUST TO  BE MORE CONFIDENT THAT I DON'T HAVE TO ORGANIZE THINGS AHEAD  OF TIME.

I DON'T HAVE TO PREPARE AS  MUCH.

I CAN GO INTO A TRIP OR  WRITING EFFORT AND JUST FIGURE IT OUT AS I GO ALONG AND I  THINK WHAT I MOST WANT FROM A READER IS JUST AN OPENNESS TO  TAKE THE JOURNEY WITH ME, TO JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS AS WELL.

I THINK THIS IS A BOOK THAT HAS A NUMBER OF SURPRISING  TURNS AND SURPRISES IN IT AND IF YOU STAY WITH IT A LITTLE  BIT, I THINK THE REWARDS ARE THERE.

BUT, THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF ESTABLISHING MATTERS, A  CERTAIN MATTER OF EXPOSITION THAT IS REQUIRED FOR THE BEST  PART TO MAKE ALL THE SENSE THAT IT CAN.

THE END RESISTED ME FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

BUT FINALLY NOW I FEEL THE END IS THE BEST PART OF THE WHOLE  BOOK.

Laura: I WAS VERY HAPPY TO  GO ON THAT JOURNEY WITH YOU.

I AM SURE VIEWERS WILL BE TOO.

THANK YOU BILL FOR JOINING ME.

deBuys: IT HAS BEEN A  PLEASURE.

THANK YOU LAURA.