Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by Viewers like You >> Nash: This week on New Mexico in Focus, we return to original programing and our roots with one of the biggest ticket races this election.

>> Haaland: I would love to hit that timeline, right.

And I'll just say that when I was Secretary of the interior, we moved an entire clean energy transition forward for our country.

>> Hull: Right now, we have to look at how absolutely attainable those goals are, because we have not transitioned our grid quick enough to accommodate the energy needs of the state.

>> Nash: Democrat Deb Haaland and Republican Greg Hall want termed-out Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham█s job.

Tonight, they make their cases.

New Mexico in Focus, starts now.

Thanks for joining us for an all new episode of New Mexico in Focus.

We are so glad to be back after a brief hiatus to gear up for what begins tonight, our 2026 General Election coverage over the next month here on [New Mexico] in Focus.

You're going to find interviews with candidates running in what we consider the top contests of the season.

Our hope is that the long-form conversations were known for, rather than sound-biting these folks to death will prepare you to make an informed decision on Election Day.

Or when you sit down at the kitchen table with your absentee ballot, if that's how you prefer to do it.

Let's go over some key dates to ensure your voice is heard.

Several things happen this coming Tuesday, October 6th.

Early voting begins at County Clerk's offices.

Absentee ballots start to go out, and registration by mail and online ends, though in-person registration begins.

The following week on Saturday, October 17th, early voting expands to far more locations.

Check your County Clerk's website for specifics.

If you want or need an absentee ballot.

The last day to request one is October 20th.

If you're on the permanent absentee voter lists, though, you don't have to ask for one.

Your County Clerk will automatically send it to you.

Early voting wraps up on Halloween, ahead of Election Day on Tuesday, November 3rd.

We are kicking off our election coverage tonight with the biggest contest of the season here in New Mexico, the race for governor, Democrat Michelle Lujan Grisham, is termed-out, after eight years in office, and Democrat Deb Haaland, a former Congresswoman and Interior Secretary, and Republican Gregg Hull, the former mayor of Rio Rancho, are vying to replace her.

Haaland trounce her Democratic primary opponent, Sam Bregman, in June with more than 72% of the vote, and has broken state fundraising records with more than $17 million in contributions.

Meanwhile, Hull has brought in less than $2 million and won his three way primary with 47% of votes.

Considering those figures, the race appears closer than expected.

According to the most recent Albuquerque Journal poll in late August, Hull trails Haaland by a mere six points, 49 to 43%, with 8% undecided.

Drilling down a bit, Haaland pulled better with women, Hispanic voters, people with higher levels of education and those in and around Albuquerque and Santa Fe Hull, on the other hand, did better with men, white voters and people in the state's more rural areas.

The next and final Albuquerque Journal poll on the governor's race is set to drop on October, 11th.

Something that has the potential to swing this race one way or another, but appears won't happen, is a debate.

Haaland took a lot of flak from her primary opponent for agreeing to debate only once, and in a format that he mocked at that.

And after she bested Bregman in June, she told reporters that she would look forward to debates, plural, with Hull.

But scheduling negotiations with local commercial TV stations have ended without success.

The campaigns are pointing the finger at each other, with Haaland's camp saying that they offered eight dates that Hull wouldn't agreed to, and Hull█s campaign, saying he accepted debates with several outlets that Haaland had turned down and cleared his schedule for the one that she'd accepted at KOB-TV.

When the station proposed a compromise date.

KOB says it's going to hold that debate anyway, putting two podiums on the stage on October 8th.

Hull says he'll be there, but Haaland's campaign so far says she will not.

To be clear, New Mexico PBS did not ask the campaigns for a debate.

Instead, we wanted to offer you a version of what we do best sitting down, one on one with a candidate for an in-depth interview about the issues.

The fact that Haaland and Hull won█t likely share a debate stage was on our mind, though, as we built out the questions and how we'd present them.

In hopes of helping you compare the candidates more easily.

We asked them about the same issue areas in the same order.

While we spoke with them for more than 20 minutes each.

We broke the conversations into two parts.

We're going to start tonight with the first part of my interviews with each candidate, which focused on basic needs education, housing, health care, water and public safety.

Starting with the Democratic candidate, Deb Haaland.

>> Nash: Secretary Haaland, thanks so much for taking the time to be here.

>> Haaland: Thanks for having me.

>> Nash: So the last time you were here during the primary, you said your number one issue is getting kids to read sooner.

Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham has invested more than $60 million in that effort.

She's instituted structured literacy assessments, coaches, a new state funded literacy institute, is under construction just down the street here.

Do you plan to build on those initiatives or go another route?

>> Haaland: Absolutely.

We should build on what we have and what people have worked hard on, I think -- I think the best thing that the governor has done for early literacy is to get early childhood education across the finish line.

I'm so grateful for that.

I think that played a really large role in my child learning to read sooner.

And and so I think everything taken together will help us achieve those goals.

I am particularly I want to pay attention to the reading coaches.

I believe very strongly that more reading coaches in classrooms, face to face help with somebody who cares deeply about literacy will help children more than anything.

>> Nash: Let's move on to housing.

New Mexico's crisis is kind of two pronged.

There is an affordability issue.

The houses are just too expensive, and then there's just not enough of them.

Let's take those one at a time, starting with affordability.

So half of renters in New Mexico spend more than 30% of their income on rent.

You've called for protecting them from corporate landlords.

To what extent do you think that those kinds of predatory practices are at the core of this issue?

>> Haaland: Well, they're at the core of the issue, starting with the applications.

When they go to apply to live in an apartment.

Right.

We've spoken to folks who say, you know, somebody could go in.

You could ask them three questions and you can determine whether or not they would qualify for an apartment.

Yet they dole out these applications and charge people every time they put one in.

And so half the time, folks, it's hard for them to be able to even afford the application process.

So I want to make sure that we are actually housing New Mexicans, that we're actually helping people to have a roof over their heads.

And so and then, you know, there's folks who talk to me about the fact that the rent was raised, they didn't know it was going to be raised.

They had just a few weeks to get the money together for the increase in rent.

It's these kinds of practices that really catch New Mexicans off guard.

>> Nash: What can state government do about them?

>> Haaland: I mean, I would love to pass a renters bill of rights.

We need to protect renters from these predatory practices, as you say, and and just help them to have a place to live.

To top it off, I will just say we're short about close to 60,000 affordable homes across New Mexico.

There are public school teachers in some of our rural communities who don't have a place to live.

>> Nash: Some estimates are as high as 90,000.

You've proposed a shot clock on permitting to help kind of speed up that process.

How would that work?

>> Haaland: It would it would say, okay, it should take X number of days to get this permit through if it's not approved in these number of days and it's deemed approved, how can the state help with that.

Can we help these municipalities and various offices to be staffed up with the number of folks who need to go over these plans?

I mean, look, if we have a developer who wants to build some affordable apartments, they have an engineer on staff.

There's licensed architects who are drawing up the plans.

We have to believe that that we can get these plans across the finish line and they can start building.

You know, time is money.

And the longer that folks wait.

The more expensive.

With all the Trump tariffs that are happening, the more expensive building materials become.

>> Nash: Would the shot clock be executive order?

Would you work with the legislature to get that enacted?

>> Haaland: I would love to work with the legislature on the majority of things.

We'd like to get across the finish line, namely because it would it would have more weight and it would be statewide.

>> Nash: Now, amid Medicaid cuts and the end to health insurance subsidies at the federal level, New Mexico has backfilled a lot of these programs with record state revenues.

You have proposed going another step forward and creating a state funded, a state run insurance program, a public option, as it's called.

How would this work and how would you pay for it, especially given economic uncertainty?

>> Haaland: Exactly.

Well, it would be -- It would be, when I think about it, it would be an insurance policy that shows up on the marketplace right now.

I've spoken to people who have gotten their insurance on the marketplace, and they were paying $500 before, and now they want to charge them $2,000.

These are expensive policies that nobody in New Mexico can.

A few people can afford them, but not the majority of people.

And so so we would want the public option to show up on the marketplace that people can choose that option.

If we if we can provide accessible and affordable health care to every New Mexican.

We have healthier communities.

Our health care costs go down when people don't have insurance, they go to the emergency room, and it's more expensive for all of us.

So we need more affordable -- People don't go to the doctor just when they're sick.

They go to the doctor to stay.

Well, they go to the doctor for their annual checkups to make sure that their their heart sounds okay and their lungs are good.

Right.

And so we I feel that that type of health care is something that every New Mexican should have access to.

>> Nash: And that second part of the question, how would you pay for it?

>> Haaland: I mean, look, we have a budget for our state.

I'm so grateful for the legislature and the governor working to fill in the gaps for Medicaid.

It's understandable that the Medicaid cuts will really affect New Mexicans come January 1st.

And so I think if we pivot some of our budget to ensure that folks in most need can get this public option first, that will be in better shape.

>> Nash: Okay.

And now you've supported Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham efforts to address the state's doctor shortage.

You have proposed tracking the impacts of her medical malpractice reforms.

You've proposed joining more of those provider compacts.

Are there also other solutions that you'd like to add to those to address the the shortage and providers we have?

>> Haaland: Yes.

So of course, we have a number of students who were born and raised in New Mexico.

They already love our state.

They go to medical school, they graduate from medical school.

I want them to stay here and do their residencies often.

These students who graduate from medical school, they go to other states for their residencies.

I love the fact that the legislature has focused on student loan repayment programs.

I'd love to enhance that for medical students so that they have an incentive to stay here.

I've spoken to resident doctors here in New Mexico who say we can get a home loan for no down payment, but we need down payments to make the mortgage payment more affordable.

So.

So how can we help these professionals to have what they need to stay in New Mexico?

If you buy a house here, you already love New Mexico.

You're a medical professional.

Those are the folks we want to stay here in New Mexico.

>> Nash: And now, Secretary, you've called for safeguarding New Mexico's water.

There is a proposal before the Water Quality Control Commission at the moment to allow fracking wastewater to be used beyond the oil fields.

You told me during the primary that the industry needs to first prove to you that it is safe to do this, and a hearing on the science is expected next year.

Tannis Fox, with the Western Environmental Law Center came on this show.

The Law Center opposes the proposal.

She told me the possibility of having you in the governor's office, rather than Lujan Grisham, who supports this proposal, is a, quote, question mark as to whether you will cancel that hearing or end the process to change the rule, will you?

>> Haaland: So, as I've said before, the science is not.

The science is still out on this water.

There's a lot of nobody knows really if it's safe.

When I was secretary, I oversaw the U.S.

Geological Survey.

Those are the kinds of that's the kind of research that this, that the bureau would do.

And I am dead set on ensuring that we highly scrutinize this water because right now people are worried that if we -- if it goes into our streams, if it goes into our groundwater, that it could, that it could just pollute our water.

So I'm not -- >> Nash: This hearing is to kind of lay out the science.

Do you want to see this hearing go forward?

>> Haaland: I think that we need to make sure that we are spending money to research the issue.

I do not want to move forward with intermingling the water with any other water that we have until -- if and until we know it's safe.

My guess is that the science would be out for a very long time.

The industry, they, if they can continue using the water in their operations, I suppose.

But I at this moment, I don't think it's safe for us to put into our streams.

>> Nash: Thank you.

Now, Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham has pursued tough on crime proposals, where she's often actually found more allies in the legislature among Republicans than her own party.

Greg Hull█s proposals on tougher enforcement, more police.

They align with Lujan Grisham in a lot of ways.

The governor told me after the last legislative session that the problem with the Democratic Party is it focuses on root causes of crimes in a vacuum, which will quote, never be enough without accountability.

You speak often about addressing root causes.

Why is that the right approach?

>> Haaland: Because -- Because I think when you address root causes, it also addresses prevention.

So many folks I've spoken to about this issue, they talk about people going through a revolving door.

They're in jail.

They're out of jail.

They're in prison.

They're out of prison.

They're back in prison.

We aren't getting to the root of the problem to help people to change their lives or to to find a different path.

I believe very strongly that illegal drugs have a lot to do with crime.

I think they're interconnected, and I really -- Yes.

Do we arrest violent criminals?

Absolutely.

Do we get them off the streets?

Absolutely.

And that's what law enforcement should be focused on.

But I really do believe that we can find a way to address the root causes to to help prevent a lot of these crimes from happening in the first place and ensure that our kids can, can go down the right path.

>> Nash: Thank you for this conversation.

I'm going to ask you to stick around.

We'll get more into some financial and industry matters here in a moment.

Thank you.

>> Haaland: Thank you.

>> Haaland: So, I think we can start with trying to put more money in the pockets of New Mexicans, enhancing the child tax credit, enhancing the working families tax credit.

I think moving forward with our renewable energy goals, net zero emissions by 2050, those create jobs, those also lower utility costs.

And so -- those are all things tha we should do to help New Mexicans have more money in their pockets.

>> Nash: Stay tuned for the conclusion of my interview with Democratic candidate for governor, Deb Haaland, in a little less than 15 minutes As I mentioned a bit earlier, the idea behind tonight█s format was to explore policy positions with Haaland and her Republican opponent, Gregg Hull, on essentially the same issues, but with questions tailored for each of them.

So next, you're going to hear me ask Hull how he'd tackle New Mexico's abysmal history with educating kids, our water and housing shortages, and uncertain health care future, and more.

>>Nash: Mayor Hull, thanks so much for joining us.

Thanks for making the time.

So New Mexico is consistently ranked at the bottom nationally for education.

The newest test scores out of the public education department show only kind of meager improvements.

And that's despite significant reforms from Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham.

Significant investments.

You've called for more accountability.

Who exactly would you hold accountable?

And who's doing that work?

>>Hull: Well, first off, we need to start with PED and make sure that the public education department, the leadership there, is working directly with the local school districts, the superintendents, to really help give them the tools to achieve the results that we're looking for.

And I think right now I've seen this is a big problem in the state of New Mexico.

We have such a diverse communities across our state that the character and culture of each of those communities is so different that it's important that we have a PED that recognizes those differences.

And instead of looking for compliance, looking for ways that we can partner with the school districts.

And I think the accountability doesn't just come from the school districts.

it comes from PED and making sure that our school districts are resourced.

>>Nash: So, is PED the one holding school districts accountable?

Does PED need held accountable, who?

>>Hull: Well, yes PED -- PED needs to be accountable But they also need to hold the districts accountable for things other than compliance.

For example, we need to see actual markable scores, markable results coming out of our district coming out of our schools.

I think our teachers are over tasked right now.

Larger classroom sizes.

How do we break those down?

How do we make sure that we're accommodating the needs of the school to get the results we're looking for?

And right now, from what I'm hearing, there's just a huge amount of bureaucratic process that comes from the schools to the superintendents out of the districts and the PED -- >>Nash: If we can get into specifics, are you going back to rigid assessments for for teachers, for third graders?

What does it actually look like?

>> Hull: So I think your your rigid assessment has to happen from K through 3.

But accountability comes from actually measuring the total number of children that are reading at a 3rd grade level at 3rd grade before we move them on, because they need to they need those skills to be successful going forward.

So accountability starts in the classroom, moves on to the school districts and right out on to PED.

But I think there's -- you need consistency in PED.

We've had 11 PED Secretaries in the last eight years.

And so the main thing that I'm hearing from the districts in the superintendents is we need consistency.

We need straightforward policies that are consistent with what they want us to achieve, and make sure that we hold those standards so that once a school pivots or shifts into a requirement, that that stays there long term so that they can actually produce the results and see how that turned out.

>>Nash: Okay, in addition to education, housing is top of mind for a lot of New Mexico voters.

I'm sure you hear it all the time.

Half of renters are cost burdened in the state.

Estimates put the state short anywhere from 58 to 90,000 units.

You've pointed to tax reform as a significant part of the solution What are the specifics of that plan?

>>Hull: We have a high burden, of GRT costs and tax costs.

>>Nash: That's the gross receipts -- >>Hull: Gross receipts tax, yes.

On building projects.

So working through the state legislature on where builders might be able to apply for a rebate on some of those GRT costs to keep affordability at or -- let me let me turn that around, to keep costs from rising so quickly.

Because right now market prices are really driving a lot of the things that are happening right now.

If you look at a preowned home or one that's already built and it's gone onto the market, it really has nothing to do with GRT or construction costs at that point.

It's the market rate on that house.

So that's what it's going to sell for when they list it.

So what is driving that; lack of inventory.

Because we have a shortage of housing.

>>Nash: Well, let's talk about stock.

What would you do differently to get more homes built.

>>Hull: So, we'll do what we did in Rio Rancho is streamline processes is help our local communities really streamline the process, streamline the zoning issues, the site plan approvals, helping them develop the master plans, helping them get through the specific area plans that are absolutely necessary to build out these communities.

Because when you bring in these plans to build out houses or communities developments, you've got drainage issues, you've got utility issues, infrastructure issues, and that's another thing that I'd like to look at, because a lot of planned developments, like what we saw built in Rio Rancho after the developer builds those, those utilities get dedicated back to the city.

So perhaps there's an infrastructure fund that we could set up through the state that would allow developers building affordable housing communities in specific that once the houses are sold, they're allowed to apply for a rebate through the state or a tax credit that would help them reduce the total over cost of that development because -- one of the really, major issues around cost for building homes is all the infrastructure.

>>Nash: Moving us on to health care.

New Mexico has the highest rate of of private equity owned hospitals in the country.

At a recent business forum, you said that you were interested in working with in working with private equity to create more opportunities to practice medicine right in New Mexico.

What do you say to New Mexicans who fear that profit driven health care leads to worse outcomes, leads to fewer services, and even in some cases, even more costly care?

>>Hull: Correct.

And I think as soon as we can wean ourselves off of private equity -- private equity is just a single step or a single process that solves that immediate problem.

If there's not services in a community, and a community needs a certain level of services.

I would rather see that there than nothing.

And so if we don't have a state run agency or we don't have a local, a county run agency, or if we don't have a city run facility, any of those things because they don't have the tax base to support that, or they don't have the population base to support that.

Sometimes private equity is a solution, but it can't be the total overall solution.

It can only be a component in that has to be, a means to an end.

>> Nash: You support Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham█s efforts to reform the state's medical malpractice laws to address our doctor shortage.

You have vowed to join more provider compacts, which she kicked off this year.

Do you have any criticisms of how Lujan Grisham has dealt with the doctor shortage?

>> Hull: No, not really, because I think the only criticism I have to go back to the 2021 medical malpractice reform that put all of this into play in the first place and opened up these limitless lawsuits.

>> Nash: But you like what reforms you saw -- >> Hull: But the reforms that came in in HB 99 are absolutely good first steps.

>> Nash: Apologies for moving us on quickly -- >> Hull: No, you█re fine.

>>Nash: Water resources are incredibly scarce in New Mexico, increasingly so.

You've named that as a top issue of yours.

>>Hull: Yes it is.

>>Nash: You've called for using every responsible option, including brackish water, in a careful, commonsense way.

>> Hull: Correct.

>> Nash: If that's the case, how do you feel about produced water, fracking, wastewater being used beyond the oil fields?

There's a proposal in front of the Water Quality Control Commission to do just that.

>>Hull: What we're looking at is in Orla, Texas recently, a fractional freeze facility, a desal facility that actually cleans this water to potable quality, was successfully tested and built down there in Orla, Texas.

And it's taking New Mexico produced water.

But because of the restrictions here in New Mexico, we had to take it out of state to actually bring this pilot project online and see if it was applicable.

So, yes, while produced water, I think if you don't want to use it for for potable reasons or if you don't want to use it for watering food crops, if it's clean enough, let's use it for watering.

Sod farms.

>>Nash: So would you back this proposal as governor?

>>Hull: I would, but only in a safe use because once again, I've invested so much of resources into making sure we have a sustainable water future in Rio Rancho.

There's nothing I'm going to do that's going to allow a program to come forward, that's going to jeopardize a fresh water supply.

>> Nash: Now, you are running in large part on the successes you've seen in Rio Rancho as its longtime mayor.

That includes public safety.

Rio Rancho saw a drop in violent and property crime under your tenure.

Your platform includes police recruitment includes stronger enforcement.

That sounds a lot to me like what Democratic Governor Lujan Grisham has been fighting for for the last eight years.

What specific strategies would you use to accomplish your goals, especially as a Republican rather than a Democrat working with a Democratic majority in the legislature?

>>Hull: I think that when we talk about the various different issues, there's things like water, public safety, education, health care -- >> Nash: Basic needs.

>> Hull: that all of us agree on that these things need to be addressed in the state of New Mexico.

And I've talked with Democrat legislators, independent and Republicans all alike, and not one of them has said we have plenty of water in New Mexico, and not one of them has said health care is perfectly fine.

So one thing that I have seen, from being mayor is that the state tends to take a one size fits all approach to these issues.

What we need is more strategic planning on the local level, helping communities like Espanola look at what they need and police resources, what they need for -- the county resources, for the sheriff's department, and making sure that we're helping them be competitive in the pay so that they're not losing their police officers to higher paying agencies such as the state police.

>> Nash: Yeah, You've proposed making police pay competitive with neighboring states.

You, as the governor, would only have a say over state police.

So how do you mandate that to a local government?

>> Hull: So, what we do is we set up -- we fortify the Law Enforcement Protection funds, and we are we put funding in there that allows the local communities to actually pull funds from the state to help be competitive in their police pay, >> Nash: Any the idea of how much that would cost?

>>Hull: Well, there's it's going to range from one community to the next.

But yeah, we're looking at a need of somewhere between -- somewhere between, the last estimate, we had between 2 and 4000 police officers, whether that's county local -- >> Nash: and if they were going to be paid competitively, do we have dollar figures?

>> Hull: Yeah, the dollar figure gets up into the millions really quickly.

I don't have that exact number with me right now, but we have done some actuarial on that to understand what is needed.

Now, that's not going to be an all at once expense.

That's going to be looking at a community by community basis, setting up a fund that's parked and then making sure that the communities have access to that fund.

>> Nash: Do you think you'll be able to find allies in the Democratic majority legislature to get your crime proposals through?

>>Hull: Absolutely.

Absolutely, I really do.

And the reason is, is some of the Democratic legislators that I've talked to about helping our local police departments is something that they're very interested in, for example, we still have the National Guard just deployed in Rio Arriba county.

That shouldn't be a long term fix.

That should be a short term solution.

While we do long term planning to make sure that we help Espanola and Rio Arriba County overcome some of the critical issues they're facing and get the funding in place and get the resources in place, not only for the policing, but you also have a major issue around some of the behavioral health and addiction issues in that county.

So they need services just beyond policing and arresting people.

We need to find ways to get people on a path to recovery.

>> Nash: Mayor Hull, thanks so much for this.

I'm going to ask you to stick around.

We got more that we'd like to get to.

>> Hull: You bet.

>> Nash: All right, thanks.

>> Hull: Is the data center sited properly?

Is there a good location for it?

If not, the answer is always, “no.” Well, a moratorium, and I have to point this out on January 1st for all data centers.

That makes a decision statewide that takes away the decision from counties that might say, “Hey, we think we have the resources, we want to explore this, but you█re putting up a sign on the ‘Coming into New Mexico█ that says, ‘Do not Enter,█ “Don't even knock on my door until we figure this out.” >> Nash: You'll hear more from Gregg Hull, the GOP nominee in the race for governor, in about 15 minutes.

But first, let's finish up with the former congresswoman and US Interior Secretary Deb Haaland.

We left off with a look at how her approach to public safety might differ from Hull█s, and from outgoing Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham█s.

We're now going to shift gears and open up the conversation to a slate of issues on so many New Mexicans minds all of them affecting your pocketbooks.

We start off with the rising costs of everyday necessities.

>> Nash: Secretary.

Welcome back.

Thanks for sticking with us for a few more questions here.

So as you've been crisscrossing the state during this campaign, you've said that “Affordability is the number one thing that New Mexicans are talking to you about.” We spoke earlier about your plans to make housing more affordable, but what about other necessities?

I'm thinking food, gas, which are increasingly expensive.

How do you plan to make New Mexico an affordable place to live?

When federal policy, like tariffs, like the war in Iran are driving up costs?

>> Haaland: Right, yes.

It feels like we don't have control over so much of what we're doing because of the president's policies.

So I think we can start with trying to put more money in the pockets of New Mexicans, enhancing the child tax credit, enhancing the working families tax credit.

I think moving forward with our renewable energy goals, net zero emissions by 2050, those create jobs, those also lower utility costs.

And so -- so those are all things that we should do to help New Mexicans have more money in their pockets.

We've also spoken -- spoken with farmers in New Mexico.

And they say, we want to -- we want to be able to sell our our crops, the things that we grow more at farmers markets.

I want to see us do more farm to table.

Can we partner with elementary schools to get some of our farmers produce to that market, so that we're not importing so much of the food that we need here in New Mexico?

The tariffs are yes, they're killing people and the price of gas folks are going into debt just to fill their cars up with gas.

And as I don't have to tell you, I'm on my third statewide tour.

There are a lot of miles in between, you know, for-- >> Nash: It█s a big state.

>> Haaland: Yeah, Fort Sumner and Clovis, New Mexico.

Right.

So I understand fully the challenges of folks in rural New Mexico.

And, and also, I will say, just for some rural communities, places like Roy, New Mexico, that don't have a grocery store.

How can we help to ensure that that they don't have to travel every time 80 miles for a bag of flour that we can, you know, we can try to focus on helping connect these communities with the resources that they need.

>> Nash: And in order to afford things New Mexicans need jobs and good paying ones at that.

Are there particular industries you're interested in recruiting to come to New Mexico, and how would you go about getting them here?

>> Haaland: Absolutely.

Well, it goes without saying.

Our clean energy industry, I think, can continue to go a long way.

I'd like to see more geothermal happen in our state.

That's an amazing source of energy and a smaller footprint that can power thousands and thousands of homes.

I-- We also have a film industry that has kind of, you know, it's-- since Covid and then since >> Nash: It█s been struggling.

>> Haaland: Since the strikes.

Yes.

It's been struggling.

There are so many trained professionals, film professionals here in New Mexico.

We have a film union.

We can really focus some energy on the film industry and bring that back into prominence for New Mexico.

>> Nash: You've already mentione the renewable energy goals that Lujan Grisham set out through the Energy Transition Act, getting to net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

Sooner than that, though, there's another benchmark, and it would occur during your first term as governor.

And that's in 2030 to hit 50% renewable energy.

Would this be your timeline, too?

And if so, how do you get there?

>> Haaland: Of course, I would love to, I would love to hit that timeline.

Right.

And and I'll just say that when I was secretary of the interior, we moved an entire clean energy transition forward for our country.

12 offshore wind projects in less than four years.

We actually were ahead of schedule with the goals that we had for the administration, the Biden administration, 50 solar projects in here in the southwest desert.

I-- We can make this happen and >> Nash: How?

>> Haaland: We will just move it forward.

Right.

We've-- I visited Mesa Lands College.

There's a wind energy program there and had a chance to talk to the instructor about the students and the program.

We can bring more students to enter this industry.

Those are good paying jobs.

And I, and I believe that we can make that happen.

>> Nash: PNM has said that they would struggle to afford to make this transition without their acquisition with Blackstone, the private equity firm.

How should the company navigate being able to get there in terms of net zero emissions?

>> Haaland: Exactly.

Well, I mean, I think the-- I think with our plan of creating more of a workforce, creating more educational opportunities, helping industry to invest here in New Mexico.

I mean, I don't want to say no, we should really work hard to reach the goals that we have set out.

>> Nash: Well, New Mexico is second only to Texas and oil production, which has led to the record revenues.

We've already been talking about going towards state programs like universal child care, health care, subsidies, public schools, universities.

You said at a recent business form that you would like to see the state legislature, quote, spend as much money as we can muster to address these issues.

How do you balance having that much money to spend with your climate goals?

>> Haaland: So my climate goals with respect to the industry are cleaning up legacy pollution, right?

When I was secretary again, we we allocated millions of dollars to New Mexico and to a lot of other states to address the legacy pollution issue, cleaning up or plugging orphan oil and gas wells.

And for the industry leaders that I've spoken to, they all understand the value in that.

And so I think that cleaning up our air by plugging these orphan and gas wells is an excellent start.

And there's thousands of those orphaned oil and gas wells all around New Mexico.

And it will take a concerted effort by everyone to ensure that we can get there.

>> Nash: Okay.

Now, if elected, you say that you plan to sign an executive order.

Pausing new hyperscale data centers on day one until guardrails are in place.

A recent poll by the Associated Press shows that the majority of U.S.

adults are concerned not only about the environmental impacts of these things, but the community impacts of these massive data centers.

How do the guardrails that you want make large scale data centers a net positive for New Mexicans who live in these communities where they'd be built?

>> Haaland: Right, so first of all, start with transparency.

I think that is an excellent start.

New Mexicans living in the communities where these centers may want to think about building, they deserve to be in the loop.

They deserve to have a voice and a say in how these, how these centers are going up.

They can't use our precious natural resource of water.

There are other ways to cool the the machines or the servers and all of those things.

They can't use our water.

We're in a high desert.

We're in the midst of a climate crisis.

Water nneeds to be used for people to live and then, of course, powering those, those entities with renewable energy.

We need to stay close to our goals.

We need to adhere to the goals that we have set for our state.

And so powering their centers with clean energy will be an absolute must.

And I believe very strongly that, you know, when I talk, when I was at my press conference, I talked about this being the floor, every community, if this is the floor transparency, water, renewable energy, that any community that is entertaining, the idea of of having one of these centers, they also get to say we, you know, we want this or we want that >> Nash: Kind of build off of you█ve laid down Now you've accepted considerable campaign contributions from Oracle, the future anchor tenant Project Jupiter, one of these data centers in southern New Mexico, and others associated with that project amounting to more than $87,000, according to an analysis by the Santa Fe New Mexican.

Are you willing to give that money back?

Will you give that money back?

>> Haaland: So let me put it this way I have-- I had-- I made a statement that I would sign a moratorium, an executive order to put a moratorium on new projects on day one.

I will-- I promise to be a part in moving legislation forward, to have accountability measures for this industry.

And I will do that, too.

>> Haaland: And you'll do it.

Despite having these funds >> Haaland: I will not go back on my promise to New Mexicans, I will hold the industry accountable.

New Mexicans deserve to have a say.

They deserve to know exactly what these what the industry plans and how they're doing it.

And I will I will hold them accountable.

>> Nash: Do you see why some people see it as at least a perceived conflict of interest to promise to hold an industry accountable while accepting campaign contributions?

>> Haaland: I mean-- I won't let any industry change my view of what needs to happen.

Nothing.

I mean, look, I've my average contribution is about $40.

Lots and lots of grassroots contributions to my campaign.

I am here for the people of New Mexico, and that's who I will fight for every single day.

>> Nash: Okay, now speaking of some kind of politically uncomfortable revenue sources, the Iran war, which you oppose, has increased prices across the world and has meant that New Mexico is bringing in more revenue than ever before.

The state is eyeing a nearly $15 billion dollar general fund that you would inherit as governor if elected.

As a Democrat, how do you reckon with that kind of political reality, and how would your budget priorities differ from our current governors and the potential budget priorities of Greg Hall?

>> Haaland: Right.

I mean, I think if you asked any New Mexican, would you would you rather have, you know, more money in the state budget or, or not have a war?

My guess is they would say we would rather not have a war.

So, you know, this this windfall, as many people call it, it's kind of, you know, it's, a it's a little disheartening because of the president we have in office who is, who is just making the world more unsafe for everyone.

But I would say that, that funding and if it's a, you know, it's kind of a one time thing, it's not like I mean, we're hoping gas prices will go back down at some point in time because I think that would benefit New Mexicans in a better way.

But we need to invest in our communities.

There's so many things that New Mexicans need all across the state.

I talked about a few of them here and, you know, affordable housing, infrastructure, water infrastructure.

That needs to be remedied.

You know, folks have told me that-- I was speaking to a Navajo man from Torreon, and he told me, we're driving across bridges that were built in World War Two.

There's a lot of roads and bridges and and all of these things that, that we can bring into the 21st century across New Mexico.

And I would love to see us be a more efficient state.

And in the long run, I think that would help New Mexicans an incredible amount.

>> Nash: Deb Haaland, thank you for your time.

>> Haaland: Thank you.

>> Nash: Thanks again to Deb Haaland, for that lengthy conversation about her vision for the top job in New Mexico state government.

Now, let's get back to her opponent, Gregg Hull.

You're going to see some stark differences here, as you did earlier in the show.

The former three term mayor of Rio Rancho has his own ideas about how the state should approach oil and gas, energy more broadly, and the thicket of emotionally charged perspectives on data centers.

And Hull is, of course, a Republican running in a state where no one from his party has won a competitive statewide election since 2014.

That's the frame for where part two of our conversation on money and industry begins.

>> Nash: Mayor Hull, welcome back.

Thanks for sticking around.

So, New Mexico and our residents are struggling with stubborn inflation, rising gas prices, grocery prices, all under a Republican federal administration that ran on fixing the economy.

>> Hull: Sure.

>> Nash: What specific plans do you have to make life in New Mexico more affordable?

>> Hull: So, what we have to look at is what do we have control over here in New Mexico?

I█m going to be proposing -- eliminating personal income tax, because we've also seen record revenues in the oil and gas industry, and the revenues that have come out of the royalties from the oil and gas industry.

I know there's a proposal out there to raise the tax on gas.

I think that this is the wrong time to do that.

Looking for ways that we can wean our dependance off of personal income tax.

I think that's the low hanging fruit that we can help lower income individuals, middle income individuals first, by moving the nontaxable bracket or the Nontaxable amount up so that that first level of imcome is not taxable.

Keeping money in people's pockets makes things more affordable.

>> Nash: Now, New Mexico has one of the lowest labor force participation rates in the nation.

We spoke earlier about your education plans, but even if workers are trained for a good job, they might not find the jobs they're looking for or the pay that they're looking for here in New Mexico.

What industries are you looking to recruit to the state, and how do you get them here?

>> Hull: Well, there's a lot of different industries that I think we can look at, whether it's manufacturing, there's a lot we can do in the energy sectors as well.

A lot of really interesting things as we're seeing some of the things develop in New Mexico -- >> Nash: Green Energy?

>> Hull: Green Energy, because we just saw Pacific Fusion do a groundbreaking here in Albuquerque not too long ago.

So, looking at green energy options, but also looking at other energy options such as SMR, small modular reactors and looking at what we can do there.

We have some of that technology being explored right here in New Mexico -- >> Nash: When we're looking at fusion, I mean, New Mexicans have particular trauma around nuclear energy.

>> Hull: Yes.

>> Nash: How do you convince New Mexicans that nuclear is safe?

>> Hull: Well, I think what you do is you show them the current technology and you just be very transparent about where we are with the technology.

Small modular reactors are much smaller.

They're subterranean, and they have very little, if any waste.

So and they're cooled with sodium now so that they're not using massive amounts of water.

>> Nash: Yeah, and you're calling for an all in energy policy -- >> Hull: Absolutely.

>> Nash: What does that mean for the future of renewable goals that Lujan Grisham has enacted, namely 50% renewables by 2030?

That would be just three years after you took office and net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

>> Hull: Right now, we have to look at how absolutely attainable those goals are because we have not transitioned our grid quick enough to accommodate the energy needs of the state.

>> Nash: Do you think they're not realistic?

>> Hull: I do not think they█re realistic -- >> Nash: Would you push them back?

>> Hull: We might have to just buy the sake of, we don't have the energy resources.

We don't have the windmills, we don't have the solar power, we don't have the geothermal.

And we haven't brought fusion online.

>> Nash: Do you work as hard as you can to try to get there, or are you suggesting abandoning these goals?

>> Hull: Oh no, we're not talking about abandoning by any means, but what we are saying is we have to look at a realistic timeline and are we replacing the -- are we replacing the fossil fuel energy sources fast enough?

And when you look at what's going on with the wind energy and the solar energy, I mean, Rio Rancho, we had the largest solar system in the state with a battery backup system.

That was one of the largest investments we█ve made, about $1 billion investment in solar energy to replace some of the energy that was lost from the coal fire plants up in the San Juan region for PNM.

So we're going to continue to build these things out.

But we can't have -- we can't shut down every other alternate energy source, which leaves our businesses without energy.

Right?

So we█ve got to -- walk it forward.

>> Nash: And speaking of not shutting down -- existing energy infrastructure.

New Mexico has record oil production in the Permian Basin, has the budget to prove it.

>> Hull: Yes.

>> Nash: And the state implemented some of the strictest emission rules under Lujan Grisham in the nation.

These aren't laws, though, they're rules.

So, if you were to take the governorship, you could weaken those, you could roll those back, if your administration pleased.

You've said that you support regulating the oil and gas industry responsibly without undermining it.

What does that look like?

>> Hull: What the oil and gas industry is looking for is just predictable regulations that remain stable.

But every time we bring one rule forward, we bring another rule forward, and then we bring another rule fool forward.

So, what I want to do is stabilize that and make sure that we're not damaging that industry, and we're not rolling it toward an eventual shutdown.

>> Nash: Would you keep the emissions rules as they are now?

Would you roll some back?

>> Hull: Right now, the emission rules that I'm understanding, look like -- that are in place, are good.

But there are some questions around venting and there are some questions around some other things.

We're going to convene -- professional panels to understand all the consequences of these things.

And look at each policy to make sure that, number one, we're protecting the environment, we're protecting the air quality for people.

But at the same point in time, balancing that with industry needs to make sure that we don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg for us.

>> Nash: Okay, and speaking of protecting the air, protecting the water, let's talk a little bit about data centers.

The Project Jupiter Data Center in southern New Mexico could produce more greenhouse gas emissions than the largest three cities in New Mexico combined.

Hyperscale data centers also pose a risk to water to land.

Your opponent, Deb Haaland, says that she will, on day one, sign an executive order, pausing new data center proposals until guardrails are put into place.

>> Hull: Sure.

>> Nash: House Democrats have come out saying they're working on that legislation.

>> Hull: Right.

>> Nash: How do you feel about a pause in those proposals, and what regulations would you be willing to sign into law, if governor?

>> Hull: So, we have to look at every industry on a per item basis.

So every deal needs to be looked at as a per deal basis.

Is the data center sited properly?

Is there a good location for it?

If not, the answer is always, “no.” We have a guardrail in place, and that ultimate guardrail that we have right now is we ultimately, as a state, counties and local municipalitie have the ability to say, “no.” And so that's already in place.

We don't need a law to be able to do that, because under an economic development deal, when you look at Project Jupiter, that came out of the governor's office, that came out of the Economic Development Office, which is under the governor's purview, and the IRB█s and the tax incentives were approved by Donna Anna County Commissioners.

And then when you go into the air quality permits, there's another opportunity to say, “no.” You've seen the arguments on this and when it comes to water consumption and fresh water and natural gas access you've seen “no█s” come across on that, and Project Jupiter.

Now while a moratorium, and I have to point this out on January 1st, for all data centers, that makes a decision statewide, that takes away the decision from counties that might say, “hey, we think we have the resources, we want to explore this.” But you're putting up a sign on the coming into New Mexico, that says, “Do Not Enter” “Don't even knock on my door, until we figure this out.” You can put through economic development deals, through negotiations.

You can put water quality controls.

You can have them build desal facilities to generate their own water.

You can have them build their own power plants.

That allows them to not overtax the existing grid or raise a current energy cost on current ratepayers, I would never support anything that causes ratepayers to pay more to support a data center.

>> Nash: But you have said that guardrails need fixing.

>> Hull: Absolutely.

I just gave you two.

>> Nash: Right, and so, are you trying to then build the plane while you fly it?

That is not pause these processes for the data center proposals while trying to fix the guardrails.

>> Hull: The guardrails come in the economic development deal.

We have that ability to build those into every deal right now.

>> Nash: While these proposals are -- >> Hull: Absolutely.

>> Nash: Moving along, >> Hull: You can say, I'm not going to offer you tax incentives like IRB█s, unless you follow the following regulations, unless you comply with the following provisions.

And then you can require clawbacks that if they don't follow those provisions, you can claw any tax incentives back or stop the project.

So, these are the things that you have to look at very carefully.

But do we need legislation for it?

I don't know.

We are proposing legislation, but we're doing a moratorium until we can see what happens.

And then when we say, “okay, well, what if you don't get the guardrails that you want after the moratorium?” Are you still going to carry that out?

Well, we'll cross that bridge -- that remains to be seen.

So, those are not good answers.

What I am saying is, after being an economic developer, a mayor of a city, and having worked on these projects, not a data center, but, you know, we've worked with Intel Corporation, big water user, do we want to put a moratorium on microchip manufacturing facilities in the state of New Mexico?

Do we want to put a moratorium on other manufacturing industries that might want to come here?

What I'm saying is, that's why you have the Economic Development Office that evaluates these deals.

They look at what site they're looking at and what restrictions might be there in energy, and what restrictions might be there in taxes and other things.

You have the ability to guardrail every deal as it comes through the Economic Development Office.

>> Nash: Now, if elected, you would inherit a nearly $15 billion general fund, a record for New Mexico.

Our revenue, though, is volatile because so much of it is reliant on the oil and gas industry.

What's the right balance of spending and saving in this moment, and what would your budget priorities be, and how do they differ from Lujan Grisham█s or what could be under Deb Haaland?

>> Hull: Well, my budget priorities are going to be to continue to follow through on education, because I think that we need a lot of effort there, whether we increase funding or just evaluate the funding that's already there, to make sure that we're getting the education for our kids, that we're paying for.

Other budget priorities would be looking at job creation.

But the big one that I think -- that I'm just really going to into is water infrastructure.

So being responsible with the water in northern New Mexico so that we can transfer as much as possible down to southern New Mexico so that it doesn't have an adverse effect on agriculture is going to be a critical plan that we have to now look at and how we're going to do that.

>> Nash: So, you're talking about a lot of spending.

What about saving?

How do you balance that?

What█s the right balance?

>> Hull: We continue to save just like we did in Rio Rancho.

We meet our needs but also put a little away.

And you continue to build on that.

Right now, New Mexico█s sitting on $75 billion worth of sovereign funds.

And I know some of those are in different funds and we're continuing to get record revenues in from the oil and gas industry.

So I think that we can balance saving with investing in what we need right now.

And let me say this, the longer we put these projects off, I don't care how much you save over here, this is getting more expensive day by day, and we never saw a greater time and a more critical need than what we just saw with the Rio Grande running dry for the last 3 or 4 months and not having water to supply our communities and not being able to recharge Elephant Butte Dam.

And that's a huge recreational facility and a draw for the state of New Mexico.

Those are the things that we have to work on protecting, because if you're saving money over here, but all of this is crumbling and decaying, what are you saving for?

I would say, as far as infrastructure and water go, the Rainy Day Fund needs to be invested in a little bit.

Not that I want to get into the principal, but reallocating some of those interest payments to make sure that we're investing for long term future and sustainability of the state of New Mexico.

>> Nash: Republican candidate for Governor Gregg Hull, thank you so much.

>> Hull: Thank you.

>> Nash: Thanks to Gregg Hull and Deb Haaland for coming in to make their cases for the governor's office.

While you are unlikely to see these two on a debate stage together, we hope the explorations of their proposals you saw tonight inform your decision in this most consequential race.

We have got a bunch more of these in-depth conversations coming your way in the weeks ahead.

All the way up through October 30th, the last Friday before Election Day.

Like ours, your ballots are going to be pretty packed this midterm season.

That mean we had to make some choices about which races to spotlight.

We used a mix of likely competitiveness and statewide importance to settle on five more contests.

Here's what we came up with.

Next week, on October 9th, we'll hear from two candidates for state Land Commissioner.

We've got a story from the field that fits with the public lands theme in that show too, and you won't want to miss that.

We'll be back on October 16th with a deep dive into one of the most closely watched races, not just in our state, but in the country.

New Mexico's Second Congressional District.

Then on the 23rd will widen the lens a bit with a look at another congressional contest in District One, along with one of the candidates for New Mexico's Secretary of State.

Well, then speak with the other candidate for SOS on October 30th, and we'll pair that conversation with both candidates in the race for Congressional District three.

And there will be no rest for the weary after that.

We'll return on November 6th with analysis of the results, repercussions, and recreations as the Post-Election Day counting continues when the canvasing begins.

For New Mexico PBS, I'm Nash Jones, until next week, Stay focused.

Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by Viewers like You.