Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by: Viewers Like You >> Nash: This week on New Mexico in Focus early voting is underway in the primary elections for governor.

Two Republicans make their cases to take the state in a new direction.

>> Turner: If we don't fix these problems early.

Fixing them later is going to be far more difficult.

>> Rodriguez: This state has gotten very good at spending.

I don't think we've gotten very good at investing.

>> Nash: Plus, a former GOP lawmaker analyzes new polling that shows shifting support in that race and a ton of voters who haven't made up their minds.

New Mexico in Focus starts now.

Thanks for joining us, I'm Nash Jones.

We are kicking off our candidate interviews in the race to become New Mexico's next Governor this week, with early voting underway at county clerk's offices across the state.

So we had plans to introduce you to all three Republicans in the race tonight, and we were on track to do that and tell frontrunner Greg Hall pulled out.

His team, canceled our interview, citing an unforeseen urgent conflict.

And when we tried to reschedule, his campaign manager said he was just too busy.

We are trying to work something out for next week, when we are set to interview the two candidates in the Democratic race.

We would like you to hear from home, a long time former mayor of Rio Rancho, and we will keep our fingers crossed that he makes the time.

We are grateful that his two competitors did just that.

Tonight, you will meet small business owner and charter school advocate, Doug Turner, and cannabis CEO and former state Cabinet Secretary, Duke Rodriguez.

In addition to hearing from the candidates, we will spend some time examining the race with political analyst and former Republican state Representative, Greg Payne.

We'll chop up what the latest polling says about where the contest stands today, and ask Payne about where it may be heading in the final stretch to Primary Election Day.

But we begin with the candidates, first up, Doug Turner.

Doug Turner, thanks so much for joining us on New Mexico in Focus.

So you've run for governor before.

But that was about 15 years ago.

So I'd like to start by just having you introduce yourself to our viewers.

>> Turner: Sure -- 16 years ago.

>> Nash: 16.

>> Turner: Yeah, so, I am a native New Mexican.

I was born and raised here in Albuquerque.

In fact, my parents live in the same house in Old Town, that I grew up in.

I am a businessman.

I own a communications and public affairs firm based here.

Although we work in about 50 countries now -- 40 countries.

I have a background in real estate -- commercial and residential real estate development, and I also own a company which the state classifies as like manufacturing.

We build custom Land Rovers that we sell all over the United States.

But I have been involved in Republican Party politics really since I was able to vote.

I was state director and then eventually campaign manager for Governor Gary Johnson during his two races.

Although I never worked for the state.

And I have, you know, I think played consequential roles on a lot of really significant issues that have come before the legislature and that different governors have had to decide on everything from medical malpractice reform to the bonding that has built in a, UNM hospital to all and gas issues, natural resource use issues, solar, wind, so I have a pretty good grasp on the state.

>> Nash: Yeah, and you talk about your political background a bit but your business, Agenda Global, which you█ve mentioned, it█s a public affairs and strategic communication firm -- >> Turner: Right.

>> Nash: How does that work prepare you to run the state of New Mexico?

>> Turner: What our company has done over the years and the issues that we've worked on, I think are highly relevant to the issues that our next governor is going to be facing -- >> Nash: How so?

>> Turner: You know, I have.

Well, I mean, you know, we have worked on and I have personally worked on school choice issues for at least 15 years.

And I'm a strong advocate for school choice and charter schools.

We have worked, you know, managing public policy issues that impact and gas utilities, power lines, wind -- wind energy, solar mining.

So we have been, you know, really deeply involved in these issues at the state level and at the local level.

And so I think, you know, from a perspective of being prepared for, you know, what a governor will face.

I don't think there's any candidate running Democrat or Republican in this governor's race that has has more experience, practical, on the ground experience in this state than I do on these on these many issues.

>> Nash: And you tell yourself as a local businessman, you also have jobs as a key priority in your campaign.

How many New Mexicans does Agenda Global employ?

>> Turner: So here in the state, you know, we're probably about 15 people.

So we're fairly small in the state.

We have, we also have employees in Texas, in Washington DC, in Florida and in California.

So that's largely a function of where some of our work is.

And it's also a function of where we've been able to find staff.

So, you know, I'd love to find more here.

But you know, we do have an education problem, you know, preparing kids for the workforce.

And that's been one of our issues.

>> Nash: Yeah.

Let's get into that.

So you mentioned school choice is a priority for yours.

You previously served as the board chair for the public charter schools of New Mexico, where according to your campaign, you fought for parental choice, higher standards and accountability.

How would those -- >> Turner: Correct.

>> Nash: How would those policy priorities show up in the New Mexico public education system if you were governor?

>> Turner: The state right now has a failing public education system, and we rank it number 50th in the nation, but it's not new.

We've actually ranked 50th in the nation for about 30 years.

And so there has to be some fundamental changes, I think, that occur across public education.

This doesn't mean that there aren't great schools in New Mexico.

There are great schools.

Now, Rio Rancho Public Schools is great, and the superintendent there has just crushed it.

But we currently move kids through our public education system, grade to grade to grade without ensuring that they have the skills necessary at whatever grade level they're in.

So, for example, we currently have 47% of our third graders who can't read at third grade level.

That's pretty shameful.

You know, our biggest competitor over the years, in terms of who is doing the worst in education is Mississippi.

Today, Mississippi has enacted some fundamental changes.

Any social promotion, they probably hold back 10% of their third graders to make sure that they have the skills to move forward.

Today Mississippi is maybe 15 or 16 in the nation.

So it's really a miracle.

You know, we need to hold these schools accountable.

I think if we have more charters and more school, public school options for kids and parents, you increase competition among those schools and, you know, you ideally drive them to higher performance.

>> Nash: Well, now your kids attend private school in one in a boarding school out of state.

What would you say to a public school parent who says that means you don't personally understand what it's like for folks like them to fight for equitable education in the public school system under the Yazzie Martinez lawsuit?

>> Turner: Sure.

You know, I attended public school myself.

You know, I went to Albuquerque High School.

I went to Jefferson Middle School before that.

And, you know, I had every intention of putting my children in charter schools, but they did not get through the lottery, and I was not prepared to put them in a in an educational environment that I felt was failing our kids.

So, you know, I have been through that process I didn't get any special treatment because I was board chair of the charter school organization.

You know, I made the decision to put my children in a private, in private schools, but that doesn't mean I'm not aware of what's going on in these schools.

I mean, I have been in this public education fight in this state for at least 25 years and in a leadership position where, you know, public charter schools, some who serve specifically Native American children.

Since you're talking about Yazzie, you know, some, you know, that served, you know, you know, kids from rough backgrounds.

We've got charter schools that, you know, educate, you know, kids who dropped out of school because they've had babies.

You know, we have a mechanism within the charter school community to provide solutions that are broad based and yet focused on what kids need.

And what I have seen generally is that public, general public schools, traditional public schools are not meeting that demand.

>> Nash: Now, when I talk to Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham after this year's legislative session, she basically argued that they're on the right track, that graduation numbers are going up, that reading comprehension-- comprehension levels are going up, but that it was such a deep hole to dig out of that that time will be on the state's side.

What do you make of that argument?

>> Turner: So I think on many levels she's right.

You know, we are seeing improvements.

There have been, I think, significant efforts at APS to increase accountability.

You know, make sure that actually, that graduating actually means something.

But the hole is still very deep.

I mean, you know, the progress that's been made, you know, does not, is not an excuse for the last 30 years of failure -- >> Nash: Now would you keep on that same track.

What would you do differently?

>> Turner: Well, I think I would work to end social promotion.

You know, I think, you know, Deb Haaland, one of my Democrat opponents in this race has proposed putting more, giving teachers.

I mean, giving students more tools.

Look, I think we can have as many tools as we can come up with.

We have no shortage of money that goes into public education.

But if we don't -- if we don't fix these problems early, fixing them later is going to be far more difficult.

Which is why I think we need to deal with an intervention at third grade.

It needs to be aggressive and, you know, whatever resources it takes with these kids.

But if it means holding them back, then we hold them back.

At the same time, I think we need to change our charter school law and allow replication of really great charter schools.

Right now, it's prohibited.

If you're running the best charter school in the state.

Nash, you wouldn't be allowed to have a second one.

And so that is, you know, you know, the priority of every public school needs to be its children, not a fight for cash, right?

And that's kind of what tends to happen.

>> Nash: Alongside education, jobs are one of your top issues.

What's your plan to increase the number and the quality of careers available to New Mexicans?

>> Turner: I think there has been a tendency to look for, you know, what I call these sort of unicorn employers.

The next Intel, that will hire 3 or 4000 people.

And I think that's all fine and well.

We trip over the log every once in a while and we get something juicy.

But the reality is that most of the employers in the state are companies like mine.

You know, there are small companies where, adding one person across a thousand companies my size.

Is it a lot of jobs like it's consequential.

And I think that a lot more attention needs to be paid to what small companies need.

And whether it is - someone holding their hand as they walk through, the quagmire of bureaucracy to get something done.

At the state or local level or -- fast track permitting, for example, or-- help someone holding your hand while you get your brand new restaurant kitchen permitted.

I mean, we small businesses need those resources.

You know, my firm did an industrial revenue bond, 2 or 3 years ago, to build our offices downtown.

Well, apparently today -- I learned yesterday that to do that now requires that, you know, you have contractors that are paying a prevailing wage, right?

You can't just go bid and find the best product, for the best service, for the best price.

That, in my mind, is counter to what the things that we ought to be doing to support small businesses.

>> Nash: Okay, so cutting that red tape, that's the bulk of what you see as a potential solution -- >> Turner: Well, the other piece of it is -- taxes.

We█re the 8th highest tax burden state in the nation.

We have the highest personal income tax in our area.

In Texas it█s zero, Colorado is 3%.

Arizona is 2.5%, and we█re 6%.

So, if you want to -- find ways for individuals to put more money back into their businesses and back into the economy, you've got to lower the tax burden.

Same thing with gross receipts tax.

>> Nash: Well, moving on to public safety, which you've argued during the campaign, is deeply connected to both jobs and education.

What we've spoken about so far.

What's the right balance between prevention by combating poverty and enforcement like more stiff penalties?

>> Turner: Well, first of all -- we need -- resources and support for kids who are heading down the wrong path.

You know, and dropping out of school, you know, finding a handgun and going to a skateboard park and shooting somebody.

I mean, we need those kinds of wraparound services and more, aggressive intervention at a young age.

We need to address our mental health crisis in the state, which I think is a contributing factor to crime.

You know, I think we need to rebuild that.

And, it was dismantled maybe a decade ago.

And I think that's necessary to address -- >> Nash: Under Republican Governor Susanna Martinez.

>> Turner: It was.

I think that's correct.

Now, their justifications were probably valid.

There was probably plenty of corruption.

That was -- >> Nash: No fraud was found in terms of the 15 providers who were accused of Medicaid fraud that was founded -- >> Turner: Regardless, we've got to rebuild it.

I mean, homelessness is addressed by -- in large part by solving a lot of those mental health issues.

Now, when it comes to stiffer penalties -- I can't imagine that anybody who's committing a crime is thinking before they commit that crime.

“Boy, if I do this, I'm going to get extra time.” But I do think we have to reform the 2016 Bail Reform Act, which really has led to this revolving door in our criminal justice system where a criminal will get arrested.

They will be put out on a cashless bail and -- until it's time to, you know, be tried.

I think those people need to stay in jail.

I mean, if I talk to law enforcement around the state, they are tired of arresting the same people over and over and over again.

So, it█s a multi-pronged solution, Nash.

It's not single.

>> Nash: Well -- >> Turner: There█s no single answer.

>> Nash: In terms of reforming the bail system.

That's been a priority of Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham as well, and she has not been able to get the Democratic led legislature to pass that.

Senator Peter Wirth told me that in this session that was not of interest of his and other Democratic leaders.

So if Lujan Grisham has come up against a blockade of her own party in the legislature, how would you, as a Republican governor, find success in that?

>> Turner: I have found traveling around the state that Republicans and Democrats and independents really all care about the same thing.

And I think what you saw in this last legislative session where, public and association and advocacy pressure was placed on legislators for Med-Mal reform.

I think the same thing can happen in this -- instance, it's going to require a lot of work and a lot of campaigning and mobilization on behalf of the governor that is out in the state, not just sitting there trying to wrangle votes in the legislature.

It's going to require the public finally saying enough is enough, and coming together to place the right kind of pressure on their representatives to make this change.

>> Nash: The initial change, though, was overwhelmingly supported by voters.

This was a constitutional amendment that voters passed -- >> Turner: Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, but -- it's not like the first time though where we said, “boy, I wish we hadn't done that.” I was talking to former Governor Gary Johnson some years ago up in Taos, about the fact that when he was elected, we went and made the PRC elected.

Right.

It used to be appointed by the governor and he, you know, put it up -- >> Nash: It█s the Public Regulation Commission.

>> Turner: That's right.

The Public Regulation Commission, and I talked to him -- this is maybe ten years ago.

And he said, that was the dumbest thing I ever did.

And so now we are back to a situation where the PRC is actually appointed, because what we ended up with is we ended up with people who had no understanding of regulated utilities in office and unable to make good decisions.

We have a better system now.

And I mean, I think it's perfectly normal that government and people in government make mistakes.

And I think it's time to undo this one.

>> Nash: Okay.

One place where the Governor Lujan Grisham and the legislature, have been in lockstep is with backfilling federal funding cuts with state funds.

Where do you fall on that?

>> Turner: Well, you know, we are fortunate enough as a state to have $72 billion in -- in our permanent fund.

My guess is by the time I'm elected, it'll be over $80 billion.

So the state does have the resources to ensure that New Mexicans who need the services get the services.

And I don't have a problem with ensuring that.

But I think the bigger goal needs to be improving our economy.

So you have fewer people who are using those services than are using them now.

>> Nash: In the meantime, as if you were elected, your administration worked towards that.

If the legislature sent you a bill in your first legislative session to continue to shore up Snap and Medicaid, would you sign it?

>> Turner: Probably.

It just depends on if it's by itself or if it█s loaded up with a whole bunch of other stuff -- >> Nash: But in terms of those proposals, you do support them?

>> Turner: As long as we're delivering the services that people need and get in this state, then we should be doing that.

>> Nash: And now those federal funding cuts, those are a Trump administration priority.

Speaking of the President, you're set to speak at Mar-A-Lago this week with a candidate for governor in Alaska.

The invitation calls you in part, leaders, quote, “poised to secure President Trump's America First agenda.” What's your understanding of that agenda, and how would you bring it to New Mexico?

>> Turner: So, my firm -- does a lot of work in the defense and security space.

We have been a prime contractor to NATO for a decade.

We worked for UCOM in Stuttgart supporting the US Department of War.

We work for Special Operations Command, some supporting -- and we started doing this under the Biden administration.

I don't see much difference in -- the goals and the work that we've done -- >> Nash: Is that what you the America First agenda?

>> Turner: Well, I think the agenda that I am an advocate of, is a very strong foreign policy, foreign policy that recognizes what the threats to the United States are and what the threats to democracy are.

Those are the kinds of things that I have worked on for over a decade.

the event at Mar a Lago is a little head spinning because I never thought we would be going there for a fundraiser.

But, it is hosted by a member there.

It's not a White House event -- >> Nash: Right, but the invitation does align you with the Trump administration.

>> Turner: The invitation aligns me with a lot of those policies for sure -- >> Nash: And accurately?

>> Turner: Look, I mean, this is the guy who survived three assassination attempts.

You know, he's got his own vision.

And I think it would be irresponsible for anyone who's running for governor of New Mexico, such as Deb Haaland, to say that they're going to fight everything that the president or the administration does.

I think we are going to find that we have great appointees from this president that will impact New Mexico.

Steve Harrell-- Steve Pierce is now head of the BLM.

Yvette Harrell is in the administration.

I think they're going to do great things for the state.

Does that mean everything that every president ever does is great?

Of course not.

Just like I said, I mean, everything that every governor does in this state is not always great either.

Democracy is something that's very special, but it sure is messy sometimes.

>> Nash: Republican candidate for Governor, Doug Turner, thank you so much.

>> Turner: Thank you for having me.

>> Payne: It kind of speaks to the primary voter.

I mean, none of these candidates have really set the world on fire.

Doug does have momentum, but you don't see, like, the huge -- the person I'm thinking about is Mamdani in New York, where you had the grassroots on the progressive side just get really excited about his candidacy.

I don't really sense that with the grassroots in the GOP right now.

Having said, I think Doug is going to win, but I just don't see that energy.

>> Nash: Stick around for our analysis of the Republican primary for governor with former GOP state lawmaker, Greg Payne in about 25 minutes and a big thanks to Doug Turner, for making time to answer our questions.

Now let's continue with our candidate interviews.

Next up, politics correspondent Gwyneth Dolan, sits down with Duke Rodriguez.

>> Gwyneth: Duke Rodriguez, thank you so much for being with us today.

>> Rodriguez: Thank you.

>> Gwyneth: My first question is about your experience.

You've worked in state government, in the private sector, in health care, and now in cannabis.

Thinking back on your career, what is one lesson from those experiences that shapes how you would govern New Mexico differently from the current administration?

>> Rodriguez: Oh, I think the big difference is I've got experience.

I'm not a politician.

I'm a businessman.

I've clearly run hospitals, built group practices.

Heck, I was a cabinet secretary under Gary Johnson.

I reformed Medicaid.

So you have most politicians who go into this role with expertise in campaigning, in kind of doing one second soundbites, and I don't think I'm good at that.

What I'm really, really good at is fixing problems.

>> Gwyneth: You and your Republican opponents agree on a lot of things, sort of broadly on crime, education, health care, economic growth.

Can you pinpoint one important issue where you disagree with them and tell us what that says about your approach to government?

>> Rodriguez: I honestly don't think we agree on much.

You will hear soundbites like, we should increase access, or we should shrink the size of this or that, or we should cut taxes.

But what I think that makes a big difference is I've done these things.

I don't think any of them can tell you how many Medicaid recipients we have, how much it costs the state.

I don't think they could tell you what the split between the federal dollars and the state dollars are in the Snap program.

I know those things because that's what I grew up with, and not as being a cabinet secretary, as being a provider of health care services, as being an individual recipient of food stamps or living in the housing projects in Alamogordo.

I think that makes me different.

I don't think we're much alike at all.

I am not your Blue Blazer Country Club Republican, but I've lived the New Mexico experience.

>> Gwyneth: So how would your approach as governor be different?

>> Rodriguez: It would be very decisive.

It would be recognizing where our priorities are.

I've said this state has gotten very good at spending.

I don't think we've gotten very good at investing.

And so our budgets grow.

We have very little accountability.

And I'm more based upon, you know, what do the numbers really say?

How can we benefit the most number of people?

We've got plenty of resources.

Everywhere I go, I tell people New Mexico is not a poor state.

We are absolutely a poorly run state.

My vision is to fix that second half and be a well-run state where New Mexicans can not only be proud, but benefit from the largesse that is New Mexico.

>> Gwyneth: I want to talk to you about immigration.

Your grandparents immigrated from Mexico.

Your parents were migrant laborers, and you said you support stronger border security, but you disagree with President Trump's mass deportation agenda.

You've even suggested a modern Braserro program.

>> Rodriguez: That's correct.

>> Gwyneth: In today's Republican Party, how do you balance border enforcement with the reality that many industries in this country depend on immigrant labor?

>> Rodriguez: I'm a New Mexican who knows that our priority should be first to the needs of the people of New Mexico.

It is hard for any New Mexican from any city, town or village in New Mexico to deny the cultural significance.

The tie we have to Mexico.

The fact that we need workers.

Whether you█re oil worker in southeastern New Mexico or involved in our green chili, we need to have abled body workers in the US.

We all agree on the concepts of protecting our borders.

We don't want fentanyl.

We don't want criminals in our country.

But I still believe we are compassionate people that want to do what is right.

And so if you look at it, I don't think it's that hard to balance.

I just think the difficult part, which is what we need, is not an attitude of saying, I'm fierce, I'm going to stop the white House.

I'm going to be a brick wall.

That's the absolute wrong attitude.

We need to say, okay, I live this experience before you all on the East Coast decide what's right for New Mexico.

Let us tell you how we are, why we need and what we do.

>> Gwyneth: On the economy you've proposed eliminating major state taxes while also proposing major investments in health care access, public safety, economic development.

But those taxes fund a large part of the state budget.

What would you cut, replace, or restructure in order to bring your programs to fruition?

>> Rodriguez: Well, first, to understand the context, what I've advocated for is eliminate personal state income tax.

That's not that novel.

It's happening like that now in Nevada.

It's like that in Texas.

It's in nine states.

And it's particularly more common in states who have significant mineral oil and gas.

We're one of those states.

I've also suggested removing completely New Mexico gross receipts tax on retail sales Most of your listeners realize we've already removed it on groceries.

We're just making that extra step.

And then the last thing is to reduce the state's portion on property tax.

Now the immediate conclusion is what are you going to cut?

That kind of fear comes from a culture where we think that everything's about spending.

It's not it's about prioritizing, putting money in the right program and making sure we get the maximum value from those investments, which we don't do now.

People will say, well, how do you feel about Snap?

Are you going to cut snap?

First of all, snap is a federal program that comes primarily from the feds and the state's primary role as administration, but it has a 15% error rate.

We're likely to have that money cut back if we don't control it in the right way of eliminating errors.

I would actually like to increase the food allocation because $6 a day is not enough.

Now, I could talk about Medicaid forever and tell you that's bigger.

In total of total services in our education budget it's 11.5 billion.

Keeps going going up.

Members keep going down.

And yet our quality of life is not getting better.

So I can pretty much convince you that we're not getting the results that we need from the money we put out.

>> Gwyneth: You often frame your economic goals in terms of private sector growth and entrepreneurship, but New Mexico has one of the largest public sectors relative to its economy.

Why do you believe that public that private sector led growth would work here, when previous governors have struggled to diversify this economy?

>> Rodriguez: Previous governors have been lawyers, have been politicians, lifetime politicians.

I don't think we've had a business oriented governor since Gary Johnson.

I don't think most candidates name any one of them, the D.A.

or the activists or you name them.

I don't think any of them could tell you what our four major industries might be, for example, oil and gas.

We should all know that that's a major sector.

How about agriculture?

That's a sector actually is a young person.

I worked in the fields.

I'm very familiar with the importance of agriculture, and yet we don't capitalize it.

How about health care?

Health care is a big thing.

I lived ran Loveless for many years.

I was the human services director or a secretary.

Think about health care.

Largest employer in the state with 150,000 jobs.

Yet we don't invest in it enough.

We have two large health care systems here in Albuquerque alone, which are failing tremendously huge losses, which we could talk about.

But the last thing being national security.

Think about that.

Los Alamos Labs, Sandia Labs, White Sands Missile Range, Holloman Air Force, you name it, Cannon Air Force Base.

We're always going after that unicorn and we think it's called Facebook or Planet Project Jupiter.

We have the major sectors we could invest in, not spend, invest in and get tremendous job growth.

>> Gwyneth: I want to stick with health care for a second.

In much of rural New Mexico, health care survives because of Medicaid and public funding, especially rural communities.

But residents depend on private hospitals and private facilities.

If the private market can't make money delivering health care in Silver City or Vegas, they just shut down and they leave.

What responsibility does the state have to step in where the private market fails?

>> Rodriguez: I think the state for decades have has failed health care tremendously.

And not just the rural setting, the urban setting.

Most of your listeners may not know it.

For the last three years, Presbyterians health system has lost over $1 billion.

UNMH We're very proud of UNMH and its quality of medicine.

It's lost $500 million.

Either way, their losses are accelerating.

So the rural system is important.

The urban part is important, but the fact is that they're both destabilized.

As a governor, you would want to step in and say, I need this system intact.

I need to make sure I give them the capital to invest in infrastructure.

Last week, I had a friend over at getting an MRI at Presbyterian.

They had to wait 36 hours because they have two MRI units and one was down.

That's unbelievable that that that's going on.

Getting a specialist at UNMH now in Dermatology.

They put out a public notice 18 months.

So my role is to bring all the players back in together and say hear me out.

We are a health care state.

Hear me out.

I'm a health care governor.

The first we've ever had in the history of New Mexico.

This is one of our largest priorities.

Lower.

Time to get an appointment.

Increase investment in these facilities, making sure that there is less fraud and waste, and making sure that we deliver more medicine to more patients.

>> Gwyneth: All right.

From health care to child care.

You have talked about the importance of work and self-sufficiency not being dependent on government aid.

You've sued Governor Lujan Grisham over the state's universal child care program, but you've also talked here today about how your family benefited from public assistance when you were young.

Supporters say without universal child care, they can't afford to.

They can't work.

In your view, where is the line between helping families get up on their feet and creating a culture of dependency?

>> Rodriguez: When you talk about universal child care.

I believe in child care assistance.

I also believe in doing it lawfully and doing it right.

And I also believe about being transparent.

Most of your listeners would be shocked if I told them the current version of what was crafted unlawfully, the nounced prior to the legislature even meeting or funding it, which will get overruled by the Supreme Court and set aside.

That's a strike on the governor, not on the program.

It has to be done lawful, which means we have to have public input, which means we have to have feasibility studies.

Which means we have to know how much it costs.

Right now, I would tell you what is designed today irrationally, irresponsibly and unlawfully is going to cost more from the state budget than what we from the state budget provide Snap food stamps and Medicaid combined.

And that should scare everyone.

That's just plain old irresponsible.

>> Gwyneth: Many Republicans face crime in terms of enforcement, weak laws.

Not enough cops on the street, liberal judges creating a revolving door.

But you often talk about poverty, addiction, mental health and education failures as a source of crime.

The overall crime numbers are going down in the state.

But what would you do in your in your first year in office to make regular New Mexicans feel safer?

>> Rodriguez: If New Mexicans are going to feel safer, I don't think it's going to come from spouting statistics.

I don't think that's making anybody believe it.

If you ask the average New Mexican or anybody driving up and down central, do they think that there's less crime?

The answer is no.

They generally have rationalized that people just might not be reporting it.

The only way they will feel safer if they see their streets, cleaner, if they see less loitering, if they see less encampments, they will feel safer.

If they feel vibrancy in our economy, that our young people have jobs to look forward to.

It's not enough to say it.

If they realize their kids are staying here, they will feel safer.

They will begin once again to believe that we are putting things into place to bring down, as you discussed.

And I will say it over again, crime in a silo is not enough.

It won't fix anything.

Throwing more money at law enforcement.

Great raising their pay.

Great recruit, more patrol police officers.

Wonderful.

But it won't fix it.

We have to realize it's not a single activity.

It's the combination, as you describe.

If we don't deal with the poverty by having more jobs, we're going to have problems.

If we don't have places within our education system that benefit our students, if they don't feel energized, if they don't feel engaged, if they don't have P.E.

or Art or whatever, they're not going to feel hopeful and they're just going to basically rebel and hurt our teachers if they don't deal with mental health and addiction.

When people are in crisis, it all will aggregate back as crime.

Stop dealing with them individually.

Stop throwing that behavioral health money this year and next season.

It's a new juvenile justice bill.

You have to realize we have to finally realize that it comes to the core of doing things better.

>> Gwyneth: Now, you mentioned juvenile crime.

And I want to ask you, do you think our problem is that juvenile offenders are not punished enough, or that we're not intervening early enough to prevent the problem?

>> Rodriguez: I think our problem with juvenile justice cannot be picked as one single problem and an issue.

And this is it.

And this will fix it all for everyone.

It's not true.

I sat on the Juvenile Justice Juvenile Parole Board, and I was the person that they brought me stacks of documents, 40 files thick.

And they said, by the way, we're going to review.

And I met each of those young people and I saw them.

Some sounded more remorseful than others, and I really thought our role was to help guide them to their next step.

I learned very quickly our job was solely to get 40 them proved for parole, so 40 more vacant beds could be made up.

Kids know that it doesn't work.

We don't hold them accountable, but we also don't give them an environment to prosper.

>> Gwyneth: Let me ask you about infrastructure in the environment.

You've talked a lot about desalination and brackish water projects.

They can be expensive, energy intensive and a little bit controversial.

How did they fit into your broader vision for New Mexico's water needs, growing energy demands and environmental stewardship?

>> Rodriguez: You know, I hear that, Duke.

You're just another Republican.

I'm not another Republican or another Democrat.

I think that the global ness of these individuals is very limited.

I don't think it's enough to be the mayor of a small town.

I don't think it's enough to be a PR spinster.

It takes a little greater vision.

I've been I spent a lot of time in Israel.

I was impressed with probably the only country in that area that produces more water than it consumes.

Big investors in desalination.

I believe in also creating more power, not being afraid of bringing enterprise here and say, oh, they're going to take all our water.

They're going to take all our power, I think.

And by the way, I don't think desal is very expensive.

Each desal facility can be built for about $200 million 18 months from beginning from permitting to finish construction.

Right now, we are probably five desal clinics, desal facilities behind where we should be.

El Paso just built a second largest desal facility in the country.

We don't have one.

I think Texas has got 12.

We should produce adequate water.

We should produce adequate electric.

We have the resources.

We just don't have the ability to execute.

No more vanity projects, no more rail runner, but actually invest in projects that make life better, not bitter.

>> Gwyneth: Your support appears to be flagging a little bit.

You were second in the Emerson poll just a couple of weeks ago.

In a distant third in the sanderoff survey.

We saw the journal published over the weekend.

You've had a few controversies during the campaign, including over your residency.

Do you think that's hurting you among voters?

>> Rodriguez: Not at all.

I think every poll is a snapshot in time.

And if you look at it, I think Brian Sanderoff said it best, and that's because he said very little what he said.

And Brian is someone I trust holy.

I can argue with what he's got in his polling, what he doesn█t.

And one of the candidates had their TV ads up the week before.

That gives you a bump.

The real story, what Brian said was the race is up for grabs when you have.

We've had a poll at 65% undecided.

Emerson had it at 60 and Brian's at 40.

It's all a matter of picture of time.

You cannot tell me or convince me that less than 400 people will represent the 150,000 that will represent and vote in this primary election.

This is the first time in New Mexico's history we have the independence declined to state to vote.

Our polling shows where we are.

I'm okay.

>> Gwyneth: Why do you think we have so many undecided Republican voters.

Is it Trump?

>> Rodriguez: No, I think it's because generally speaking, the candidates have not fully introduced themselves.

And generally speaking, I'd like to believe that the candidates suck.

And there's nothing wrong with saying that.

I don't think the Democrats are that great and the Republicans are overly impressive, including myself.

But the reality is we're now introducing ourselves.

The day his poll came out is the only the day we began our TV ads.

They're they're persuasive, they're willing to listen, and our polls are indicating we're okay.

So why are they unengaged now is because we've done a poor job.

Let's see what we do in the next four weeks and let's see what happens on June 2nd.

>> Gwyneth: So today you've talked about New Mexico's problems as interconnected crime, health care, education, addiction, economic stagnation.

If you could make meaningful progress on only one of those things.

During your first term, which one do you think would have the biggest impact on the overall picture?

>> Rodriguez: I think polls have indicated, and I agree, the number one issue in this state right now is health care.

If people don't improve their life, if they can't see their doctor, if their hospitals don't stay open, if they're if their entire communities are destroyed.

Just this week alone, I understand in Los Alamos they shut down their labor and delivery.

Births will now be done in Espanola and Santa Fe.

That's not good.

We can deal with crime.

We can deal with the failing education system.

We can deal with building the economy.

But the one area that we can have impact is in health.

And never in New Mexico's history have we ever had a health care governor.

This Governor Day will go down in history where Suzanna gets blamed for mental health destroying the behavioral health network.

This governor will be recognized for destroying health care in New Mexico.

And if I'm elected, I will be that health care governor who not only deals with improving our health care system statewide, but then will also deal with all the other issues that stem from that fail.

>> Gwyneth: Duke Rodriguez, thank you so much for being with us today.

>> Rodriguez: Thank you.

>> Nash: Thanks to Duke Rodriguez and Gwyneth Doland for that conversation.

And we were all set to hear from Greg Hall, the third candidate in the Republican race for governor as well.

But he canceled on us.

Now, that you have a better sense of most of the candidates in the GOP race for governor and where they stand, let's take a look at the race itself.

The Albuquerque Journal published a poll over the weekend, and while Greg Hull led the pack, a huge number of proven Republican and Independent voters remain undecided.

30% of the People Research and Polling, Inc.

surveyed said they planned to vote for Hull, with Doug Turner nine points behind at 21% and Duke Rodriguez in a distant third at just 9%.

If you do the math, that means a whopping 40% haven't made up their minds, but they do still have time.

While early voting started at county clerk's offices on Tuesday, it'll really get going with additional polling sites next Saturday, the 16th and election day, June 2nd, is still weeks out.

Research and Polling president Brian Sanderoff told the Journal that voters are still familiarizing themselves with the candidates, likely because none have held statewide office.

I spoke to Sandroff last week, and he emphasized that his polls are simply a snapshot in time.

>> Sanderoff: It's not meant to predict Election Day, unless your final poll is just a matter of days before the election.

So this poll is just telling us where we stand today.

>> Nash: We discussed how his team decided on how many independents to include.

Since this election is the first time they're able to participate in one of the primaries without registering with that party.

While Sanderoff said research and polling isn't sure how many will actually turn out, they went with 12% in last week's prediction of the Democratic race for the Republican primary.

They settled on slightly fewer, at 10%.

>> Sanderoff: The secret to our approach was that we called the independents, and then we asked them if they were very likely to vote, which primary they're going to participate in.

Do they want a Democratic ballot or a Republican ballot?

So what we learned was there were more people interested in the Democratic ballot than the Republican ballot.

>> Nash: Hull had a double digit lead over his competitors among men and while he also pulled better among women, his lead over Doug Turner shrunk to just 4%.

And there were places where Turner was actually ahead.

Namely southwestern and eastern New Mexico, though those regions also had the highest number of undecideds.

Hull had the widest margin of support in the Albuquerque Metro and in north central parts of the state.

Sandreroff told the Journal that's likely a result of Hull serving as mayor of nearby Rio Rancho for more than a decade.

The north central also went harder for Duke Rodriguez than anywhere else, as the only region where he pulled in the double digits at 13%.

Research and pollings findings differ considerably from an Emerson College survey on the Republican primary race conducted for KRQE TV just a week earlier.

While Hull led in that one two, he was up by 11 instead of just nine percentage points, and Rodriguez was in second at 10%, with Turner coming in at a mere 9% compared to his more than 20% finish in Sanderoff█s poll.

Sanderoff spoke to the difference between the methods of researching and polling and Boston based Emerson College in our interview last week.

>> Sanderoff: You generate a random sample, but it ends up not being as representative as you'd like.

We set quotas so that every county will get its fair share based on past election returns.

So we go to levels much higher than the national companies.

National companies have a disadvantage in that there might be polling in 20 or 30 states, so they really can't get to the finer levels of detail that we can get to being that we're local.

>> Nash: If you are an independent or unaffiliated voters who would like to participate in the primary election, you can select either a Republican or Democratic ballot.

When you arrive at a polling place or request an absentee ballot.

Early voting has begun at your county clerk's office.

Okay, now that we have wrapped our arms around where New Mexico's most successful pollster sees the race on the Republican side a month out, let's get out the shovel and dig a little deeper, to help us with the excavation.

We brought in Greg Payne, a former Republican Albuquerque city councilor and state representative.

Payne's been out of office for 20 years, but he's kept a sharp eye on state and local politics.

Here's that conversation.

>> Nash: Greg, thanks so much for being back on the show.

We really appreciate it.

>> Payne: Sure, Nash, thanks for having me back.

It's good to be here.

>> Nash: So I just laid out some of the results of Brian Sanderoff█s most recent poll of the GOP primary race, and I'd like to get into with you some of the why, what's behind those numbers?

What stood out to you in terms of where certain candidates are resonating with people and what's behind that?

>> Payne: Well, I wasn't surprised by Greg Hull being at 30% but I thought Doug Turner and Duke Rodriguez would be somewhere around 15% each.

So I was surprised when Doug wound up being at 21% and Duke was only at 9%.

>> Nash: And what about some of the demographics?

Hull is resonating more with both men and women, but it gets a lot closer between him and Turner.

When you look just at women and who they're supporting.

What do you think is behind that?

>> Payne: I don't know.

You know, it could be -- And I've jokingly said that, you know, Hull's got the goatee and maybe that appeals to men or something like that.

And maybe, you know, Doug is -- is a little more urbane, for lack of a better word.

So but I really don't know.

But it's I think it's important because whoever the nominee is on the GOP side, they're going to have to have support from women voters.

>> Nash: Sanderoff█s poll also broke down kind of the regional divide.

And we saw Turner actually ahead in both eastern New Mexico, southwestern New Mexico that includes Las Cruces and then Hull far ahead in the Albuquerque Metro in North Central.

Can you break that down a little bit?

>> Payne: Hull makes sense, he was mayor of Rio Rancho.

So Sandoval County -- he's been in the Albuquerque mediate -- again, the surprise for me was Doug Turner doing so well.

And little Texas and down by Las Cruces.

>> Nash: Yeah, what's going on there?

>> Payne: It's got to be the oil and gas industry.

But for a kid from Albuquerque like Doug is, he grew up in the Old Town area, to have a base already on the east side and down south is pretty remarkable.

>> Nash: And do you think what will that mean as the campaign continues over these next few weeks that he's got that base -- >> Payne: Right.

No.

It's simple.

I mean, he can focus on Albuquerque now, in the final weeks of the campaign, which is where I think is going to be won or lost.

>> Nash: Okay, well, Election Day is a little bit more than three weeks away.

Let's talk about momentum.

Let's talk about money.

How do you see this thing playing out as as we enter this home stretch?

Who's surging, who's tanking, who's got the money to to keep it going?

>> Payne: Well, talking about money, I mean, one of the people whose obviously tanking at 9% is Duke Rodriguez.

I think that campaign made a huge mistake because Duke said he had $2 million to spend on the campaign.

He should put that money in the bank immediately to show he was serious.

He didn't do it for some reason.

>> Nash: What did he do instead?

>> Payne: Well, he put like $500,000 in.

He started talking about tranches, like he would release the money as he needed to release the money.

That sent a mixed message, I think.

Either you're serious about what you say.

If he said, I'm going to spend 2 million.

Then you put the 2 million in the bank.

That was a huge mistake -- >> Nash: You think that could have scared some of his competition?

>> Payne: I think if he had, that's a great point.

If he had put the 2 million in the bank.

I'm not sure Turner would have run.

I'm not sure the oil and gas industry would have gotten involved.

I think he would have scared him off, but it turned out to be a bluff.

Between Turner and the oil and gas industry, they called the bluff.

>> Nash: Well, in terms of Turner and Hull, what do you make of their war chest and their momentum going into these final weeks?

>> Payne: I'm not sure that Greg Hull has a war chest and that's his main problem.

He doesn't have the money to to get his message out.

>> Nash: Okay.

And so what does that mean?

>> Payne: That means that Doug Turner does have money and he's got the oil and gas industry.

I believe they have a pack.

So I don't think that Doug has to attack Duke or attack Hull.

I think all Doug has to do is promote Doug and he's got the resources to do it.

>> Nash: Okay.

Well, I do want to go a little bit deeper into Duke Rodriguez.

You mentioned you feel like he's tanking.

He fell from second in the Emerson poll in the double digits to a distant third in Sanderoff█s poll What's not resonating about his campaign?

>> Payne: Well, number one, I think people realize that he did live in Arizona.

He voted for governor in 2024, in Arizona, and his whole campaign was pretty much waged in the courtroom.

It was, you know, the fight to get on the ballot and then going after Michelle Lujan Grisham over daycare.

It's been a courtroom campaign.

Campaign.

>> Nash: But, I mean, at the same time, those court cases have kept him in the media for free without having to pay for ads.

Why wouldn't that help his case, to just have his name out there?

So much -- >> Payne: So, I know the Republicans are not fans of Michelle Lujan Grisham, but I don't know that a -- sued her over daycare.

There are a lot of Republicans going back to Turner and the female vote who are pro daycare.

>> Nash: It's the universal childcare program.

>> Payne: Right, exactly.

If I were Duke, if I were helping on that campaign, I would have advised him to sue Michelle Lujan Grisham over guns and gun control, because that's much more of a resonating issue with the GOP primary voters.

>> Nash: So it sounds like, in your opinion, he's not going to win.

You're counting him out.

If that's the case, what does his presence on the ballot do to Turner and Hull?

Where do, where do those voters go?

I >> Payne: I, here's a real good question.

I'm not sure who your typical Duke Rodriguez voter is, I think it█s more important for the nominee, who I think is going to be Doug Turner, to reach out to Greg Hull for those voters.

>> Nash: Okay.

And you think it's going to be Turner, despite him lagging in this most recent poll because you say he's got the momentum and he's also got that base in rural New Mexico and can focus now on Albuquerque.

Is that why you say that?

>> Payne: And he's got the war chest.

>> Nash: Okay.

>> Payne: And so I don't think at this point, if Duke were to spend the $2 million, I think it's too late in the game for him to really make a dent and to capture the nomination.

I just don't see it.

>> Nash: Okay.

Well, this there's a huge pool of voters to tap for all three of these candidates, because the Sanderoff poll found 40% are undecided on who to vote for in this race.

I mean, that's massive.

>> Payne: That is, it's huge.

And but it kind of speaks to the the primary voter.

I mean, none of these candidates have really set the world on fire.

Doug does have momentum, but you don't see like the huge the person I'm thinking about is Mamdani in New York, where you have the grassroots on the progressive side just get really excited about his candidacy.

I don't really sense that with the grassroots in the GOP right now.

Having said, I think Doug is going to win, but I just don't see that that energy.

>> Nash: Okay.

Sanderoff had said that it may be chalked up to the fact that none of these three have run for statewide office, have held statewide office before.

Well, that's not true.

Turner has run for statewide office, but none of them have held office.

What do you make of that argument, and do you think it's more of what you're saying about a grassroots like excitement among the base?

>> Payne: Right.

Well, I think there's a lot to that argument.

And none of the candidates, with the exception of Duke, know the candidates have really been on the media or in the TV until recently.

I think Turner just came up about two weeks ago or something like that.

So it hasn't been as high profile as you might have liked if you're running for governor or to be the GOP nominee.

>> Nash: Do you think, what's the Trump factor?

Would, somebody aligning themselves closely with the president get folks excited?

We saw that in some of the primary races where Trump's supported candidate won in some of these most recent primary candidates over some incumbents, does -- Could that start a fire?

>> Payne: I don't know.

We had the primaries in Indiana, where 5 or 6 state senators that were viewed as being opposed to Trump were voted out.

New Mexico is not Indiana, so there is a MAGA factor.

But I don't think a candidate on the GOP side who wants to be serious about the general election is going to just embrace themselves or, you know, wrap themselves up in MAGA red.

>> Nash: Yeah.

Would you -- I mean, who do you see as the MAGA candidate in this race, if anyone?

>> Payne: Well, Doug had his fundraiser out at Mar-A-Lago, so I think that that's kind of a message, but he's sending the message that, you know, I'm at Mar-A-Lago and that's Trump's place.

But on the other hand, he's not embracing himself with Trump -- >> Nash: Yeah I asked him If he felt like he I mean, the invitation had characterized him as the America First candidate.

I asked him if he felt that that was accurate, and he was a little sheepish about aligning himself with the president or all of his policies.

>> Payne: Well, I mean, to if he's going to be viable in the general and I think he will be, he's going to have to really thread the needle on that one.

>> Nash: And doesn't he have to get to the primary first?

>> Payne: He does.

But to the extent getting back to your original question, to the extent that there is a MAGA candidate in the GOP primary, it's Doug Turner.

>> Nash: And but are you saying that that doesn't help him in New Mexico?

>> Payne: I think it does help him, especially with some of the voters that might normally go to Greg Hull.

And again, that's the biggest block of votes out there.

Greg Hull at 30%.

If at some point someone who's supporting Hull believes that Doug is a better fit, or Doug is actually the one who went out to Mar-A-Lago, allowed those votes, might go over to Doug.

>> Nash: Right.

But then come the general.

That might actually hurt him.

>> Payne: I think it was Richard Nixon who said during the primary, you run as far to the right as you can, and then when you get to the general, you head to the middle.

So a lot of candidates do that.

I think just having the fundraiser that Mar-A-Lago, it's not going to hurt Doug.

I don't think in the general it's going to be brought up.

>> Nash: Well, I█m sure it will -- >> Payne: I█m sure it will be too -- >> Nash: Maybe we'll have you back on to talk about it at that point -- >> Payne: I█d Love to-- >> Nash: Thanks so much, Greg >> Payne: Yeah thanks, Nash.

>> Nash: Thanks to Greg Payne for hashing out the Republican primary race for governor with us.

And to the two candidates for their time, we hope to introduce you to the third name on the ballot, Greg Hull, before you head to the polls.

But he canceled on us this week.

Before I sign off, one quick point of pride for our station and for our partners at the nonprofit Newsroom New Mexico in Depth, the team at Indigenously Positive, Bella Davis and Benjamin Yaza have stacked two more awards on the series already crowded shelf.

The pair took home first and second place honors in the multimedia category at the recent Society of Professional Journalists Top of the Rockies contest.

Congrats to Bella and Benjamin!

Join us here next week when we will explore the Democratic primary race for governor, including one on one interviews with candidates Deb Haaland and Sam Bregman for New Mexico PBS.

I'm Nash Jones.

Until then, stay focused.

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