>> Gene: THANK YOU TO HANNAH BURLING FROM FAIR DISTRICTS NEW MEXICO AND LEONARD GORMAN FROM THE NAVAJO NATION HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION.

YOU CAN WATCH GWYNETH'S ENTIRE INTERVIEW RIGHT NOW ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW, EARLIER THIS MONTH, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED ITS DECISION TO SEND CLUSTER BOMBS TO UKRAINE.

20 COUNTRIES HAVE BANNED THESE TYPES OF WEAPONS SO NEITHER U.S., RUSSIAN OR UKRAINE HAVE RATIFIED THAT CONVENTION.

FOR TWO DECADES NEW MEXICO JOURNALIST KAREN COATES AND JERRY REDFERN HAVE DOCUMENTED LONG-TERM HUMAN AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS OF VIETNAM ERA CLUSTER BOMB CAMPAIGNS IN CAMBODIA AND LAOS INCLUDING IN THEIR FILM, ETERNAL HARVEST.

GET THIS, THE U.S. MILITARY DROPPED FOUR BILLION POUNDS OF EXPLOSIVES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA BETWEEN 1964 AND 1973.

ABOUT 30 PERCENT OF THOSE BOMBS DIDN'T DETONATE AND THEY STILL REMAIN A THREAT TO PEOPLE TODAY.

THE FILMMAKERS JOINED LAURA PASKUS IN OUR ALBUQUERQUE STUDIOS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT MAKES THESE BOMBS SO DANGEROUS FOR SO LONG.

>> Laura: KAREN COATES, JERRY REDFERN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Redfern: THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Laura: SO, WHEN YOU HEARD THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN APPROVED SENDING CLUSTER BOMBS TO UKRAINE, WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION?

>> Coates: HERE WE GO AGAIN.

I HAD OTHER THOUGHTS, TOO, THAT I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T SAY ON PUBLIC TV.

>> Laura: SO, CLUSTER BOMBS ARE BANNED BY MANY COUNTRIES BY CONVENTION THAT WAS ADOPTED IN 2010 AND EVEN CONGRESS HAS PLACED SOME RESTRICTIONS ON CLUSTER BOOMS.

JERRY, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHY THEY ARE SO BAD.

>> Redfern: THE REASON THEY ARE REALLY BAD IS LIKE THEIR VERY BASIC GENERAL NATURE.

SO A CLUSTER BOMB IS ACTUALLY LIKE A BIG BOMB WITH A BUNCH OF TINY LITTLE BOMBS INSIDE AND WHEN YOU DROP IT, THE BIG BOMB OPENS UP AND SHOOTS ALL THE TINY LITTLE BOMBS OUT, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SIZE OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

THIS IS HALF OF THE CLUSTER MUNITION THAT WAS DROPPED OVER LAOS PROBABLY 55 YEARS AGO.

SO YOU WILL MAYBE 600 OF THESE INSIDE A MUCH LARGER BOMB, IT CRACKS OPEN IN THE AIR, SCATTERS THESE OVER THE COURSE OF TWO OR THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS AND EXPLODING ALL OVER THE PLACE, OR NOT, DEPENDING.

CLUSTER MUNITIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AND THAT ARE BEING MADE AND ARE BEING -- AND THAT REMAIN UNTIL RECENTLY HAVE ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

ANTI-PERSONNEL TO TRY TO KILL PEOPLE, TO TRY TO PENETRATE THROUGH ARMOR.

OR TO ACTUALLY, LIKE THIS ONE DID, IT WOULD SEND OUT TRIP WIRES TO ACT AS A LAND MINE.

SO THAT IF SOMEBODY WAS WALKING NEARBY, THEY TRIP OVER THE WIRE AND IT WOULD EXPLODE.

SO, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

THE BIG PROBLEM WITH THEM IS THAT YOU'RE THROWING SO MANY OUT THERE THAT YOU INEVITABLY HAVE A FAILURE RATE AND IF YOU'RE THROWING OUT HUNDREDS AT A TIME OR THOUSANDS AT A TIME, OR IN THE CASE OF LAOS, VIETNAM, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS AT A TIME, THOSE FAILURE RATES ADD UP.

AND THEN YOU'RE LEFT WITH MILLIONS OF THESE THINGS IN THE GROUND YEARS AFTERWARD THAT ARE FOUND BY FARMERS OR KIDS AND IT KILLS THEM.

IT KILLS THEM.

>> Laura: SO THE UNITED STATES HAS MILLIONS OF THESE BOMBS IN STORAGE.

AND BEFORE WE DIVE INTO YOUR REPORTING ON LAOS AND CAMBODIA, I JUST WANT TO ASK, WHO BUILDS AND SELLS AND PROFITS OFF OF THESE BOMBS?

>> Coates: WELL, JUST TO CLARIFY, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, AS IS REPORTED, THE UNITED STATES IS NO LONGER MANUFACTURING CLUSTER MUNITIONS.

THERE HAD BEEN AN EFFORT FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A SO-CALLED BETTER CLUSTER MUNITION WITH A LOWER FAILURE RATE BELOW 1%.

NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT AND SO I THINK IT WAS IN 2016 WHEN THE LAST COMPANY WHO WAS MAKING THEM, PULLED OUT AND SAID, WE CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

HOWEVER, THERE IS STILL DESIRE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER.

>> Laura: I WAS SURPRISED BECAUSE IN A RECENT WASHINGTON POST STORY IT SAID HAD ALTHOUGH THE UNITED STATES HAS USED CLUSTER MUNITIONS IN EVERY MAJOR WAR SINCE KOREA, NO NEW ONES ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN PRODUCED FOR YEARS.

SO WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW IF SOMEBODY'S MAKING THEM OR -- >> Coates: AGAIN, JUST TO CLARIFY, THAT ISN'T THE FOCUS AREA OF OUR REPORTING, BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE RESEARCH I HAVE DONE, I HAVE NOT COME ACROSS ANYBODY WHO TODAY IS MAKING THEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

HOWEVER, THEY ARE BEING MANUFACTURED IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

>> Laura: SO YOU HAVE REPORTED ON THE IMPACTS OF CLUSTER BOMBS IN CAMBODIA AND LAOS FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS.

I WAS WONDERING, ON THE GROUND, WHAT DID YOU LEARN, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE STORIES THAT YOU HAVE HEARD, HUMAN IMPACTS THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THERE?

>> Coates: WE HAD BEEN LIVING AND WORKING IN SOUTHEAST ASIA FOR QUITE SOME TIME BUT IT WAS IN 2005, GOING WAY BACK TO THEN, WE WERE WORKING ON AN ARCHEOLOGY STORY.

THERE IS A LARGE AREA CALLED THE PLAIN OF JARS, FULL OF MASSIVE ANCIENT STONE JARS.

THAT AREA, DURING THE WAR, WAS HEAVILY BOMBED AND SO TODAY AND AT THAT TIME, ARCHEOLOGISTS AND ANYBODY STUDYING THE JARS HAD TO GO WITH A CLEARANCE GROUP, A BOMB CLEARANCE GROUP TO MAKE SURE THAT THE AREA WAS SAFE.

MANY OF THE JARS HAD BEEN DESTROYED OR DAMAGED IN THE BOMBINGS.

AND IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING THE STORY, WE WERE IN THAT AREA FOR ABOUT TWO-AND-A-HALF, THREE WEEKS.

AND WE HEARD OF MORE THAN 20 ACCIDENTS WITH CLUSTER MUNITIONS, JUST AROUND THAT AREA.

SO, WE KIND OF LOOKED AT EACH OTHER AND SAID, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING MORE ON THIS.

AND WE MET A 10-YEAR OLD BOY, NAMED BICH, WHO WAS IN THE HOSPITAL.

JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE HE HAD BEEN OUT WORKING IN HIS FIELD AND HIT SOMETHING AND IT BLEW UP AND CAUSED, YOU KNOW, MAJOR DAMAGE TO HIS BELLY AND HIS FACE.

AND THAT WAS SORT OF WHAT REALLY MOTIVATED US TO LOOK INTO THIS DEEPER.

AND OVER MANY YEARS, THEN, WE ENCOUNTERED, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY STORIES LIKE THAT.

>> Laura: SO, THESE WERE BOMBS THAT WERE DROPPED IN THE 60'S'S AND 70'S; IS THAT RIGHT?

AND SO I AM IMAGINING THAT THERE WERE TERRIBLE IMPACTS AT THAT TIME BUT NOW DECADES AND DECADES LATER, STILL?

>> Redfern: YEAH.

SO THE BOMBS DON'T NECESSARILY STOP WORKING AND I MEAN IT'S A BIT OF A MISNOMER TO CALL THEM DUDS.

THEY JUST HAVEN'T GONE OFF, RIGHT, BUT THEY ARE STILL, IN MOST CASES, COMPLETELY CAPABLE OF GOING OFF AT THIS POINT.

AND THAT'S REALLY THE BIG ISSUE.

SO, THEY FOUND THAT WHAT HAPPENED A LOT OF TIMES, PARTICULARLY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA, YOU HAVE MONSOON SEASON AND IF YOU'RE BOMBING DURING MONSOON SEASON WHEN THE GROUND IS ESSENTIALLY JELLO, YOU KNOW, THE BOMBS WILL SINK INTO THE GROUND DURING THAT SEASON INSTEAD OF DETONATING LIKE THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO.

AND THEN, THEY CAN CHURN.

IT IS A TERM CALLED TURBATION, HOW THE SOILS CHURN ALL ON THEIR OWN, BETWEEN SEASONS AND SUCH.

SO, THINGS THAT CAN BE DROPPED IN ONE PLACE, YOU DROP A BOMB HERE, IT DOESN'T DETONATE.

IT CAN CHURN THROUGH THE GROUND AND POP UP SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND THESE SORTS OF DANGERS JUST, YOU KNOW, KEEP ON MOVING THROUGH FIELDS YEAR AFTER YEAR, DECADE AFTER DECADE.

AND THESE THINGS STILL HAPPEN.

THEY STILL FIND THINGS IN LAOS TODAY AND CAMBODIA AND VIETNAM.

>> Laura: SO IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS OBVIOUSLY LIKE IMPACTS ON INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE AND FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES.

WHAT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENTS?

LIKE HOW ARE THEY HANDLING HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS U.S.

CAUSED PROBLEM ALL THESE DECADES LATER?

>> Coates: IN SOUTHEAST ASIA AND LAOS, IN PARTICULAR, THAT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER AND IT'S A TRICKY QUESTION BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY COMPLICATING FACTORS ABOUT THE LAO GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS A COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT.

>> Redfern: SO THE UNITED STATES ACTUALLY DOES SHELL OUT A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY, WELL, THEY SAY THEY SHELL OUT A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY.

THEY CALL IT A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY EVERY YEAR TO HELP THESE COUNTRIES CLEAR UP BOMBS THERE, IN LAOS, CAMBODIA AND VIETNAM.

THE IDEA, THOUGH, THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS -- THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE EARLY 90'S.

SO THAT IS 30 YEARS.

WE ARE STILL PAYING MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS A YEAR TO HELP CLEAN UP THIS ISSUE.

THEY ARE STILL FINDING BOMBS.

THE GOVERNMENTS DO WANT TO WORK TO GET RID OF THESE PROBLEMS.

TO GREATER OR LESSER EXTENT, I THINK, FOR THE MOST PART, THEY ALL REALLY WANT TO GET RID OF IT.

BUT FOR AN ECONOMY LIKE LAOS, WHICH IS VERY MUCH A DEVELOPING -- A LOWER DEVELOPING ECONOMY, THEY ALSO, I THINK, OFTEN DON'T WANT TO SCARE OFF INVESTORS.

SO THEY DON'T, SAY, TALK ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS VIETNAM DOES OR CAMBODIA DOES BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO SCARE PEOPLE FROM SHOWING UP AND DOING THINGS THAT LAOS HAS SPACE AND MONEY TO DO LIKE MINING AND FORESTRY AND SUCH, WHICH ARE DANGEROUS IF YOU DON'T WORK WITH CLEARANCE TEAMS.

>> Laura: IN A 2016 STORY, KAREN, YOU WROTE... [READ SCREEN] CAN WE TALK ABOUT THOSE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS.

>> Coates: YES, AND JERRY HAD TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS ALREADY.

ANY TIME YOU HAVE AN EXPLOSION, IT IS GOING TO TURBATE THE SOIL, THE SEDIMENTS, THE ROCK, WHATEVER IS IN THE ENVIRONMENT.

WHEN YOU HAVE MULTIPLE EXPLOSIONS IN A PLACE, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS WITH CLUSTER MUNITIONS, YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, BOMB, BOMB, BOMB, BOMB, BOMB.

THERE'S AN EVEN GREATER EFFECT.

SO IN PLACES IN LAOS, FOR EXAMPLE, AS WE HAVE SEEN, THERE ARE STILL LARGE CRATERS AND SMALL CRATERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE TO THE POINT WHERE 50 YEARS LATER, THEY ARE DEEP ENOUGH, THEY ARE PROMINENT ENOUGH, THAT PEOPLE USE THEM AS PONDS.

THEY USE THEM FOR FISH, BUFFALO WILL SORT OF WALLOW IN THE WATER IN THERE.

THE CHANGES IN THE LANDSCAPE ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOOD OR BAD BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT ANY TIME YOU HAVE EXPLOSIONS LIKE THAT ON A BATTLEFIELD, IT DOES ALTER THE LANDSCAPE.

IT MEANS THAT CERTAIN THINGS MIGHT NOT GROW THERE IN THE FUTURE THAT HAD IN THE PAST.

IT CAN CHANGE THE VEGETATION.

THE SOIL STRUCTURE, AS I WAS SAYING.

SO IT IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A DEFINITE HUMAN CAUSE CHANGE TO THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE WAY THAT PEOPLE PERCEIVE THE LAND AS WELL.

AND ANOTHER BIG THING ABOUT THAT AND A SIMILARITY BETWEEN, SAY, UKRAINE TODAY AND LAOS, BOTH ARE VERY HEAVILY, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE FARMING COMMUNITIES, FARMING AREAS.

AND SO IF YOU'RE A FARMER AND YOUR LAND HAS BEEN BOMBED, YOUR LAND HAS BEEN COVERED WITH CLUSTER MUNITIONS, THE WAY YOU SEE THAT LAND IS GOING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE BECAUSE YOU ARE THEN AFRAID TO GO OUT ANYWHERE, EVEN IF THE -- EVEN IF THERE IS JUST ONE THAT DIDN'T GO OFF.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS.

SO YOU CAN'T USE IT SAFELY.

>> Laura: SO, I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR THE PEOPLE OF LAOS OR CAMBODIA BY ANY MEANS, BUT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE OF INTERVIEWING PEOPLE, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT THE PEOPLE OF LAOS AND CAMBODIA MIGHT WANT AMERICANS, RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS TO REALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT USING THESE BOMBS AND REALLY EMBRACING THEIR USE IN THIS WAR?

>> Redfern: I THINK THEY WOULD BE HORRIFIED.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WE HAVE EVER MET HAS BEEN ANYTHING BUT ABSOLUTELY CRUSHED BY HAVING COME IN CONTACT WITH THESE THINGS.

I MEAN, EMOTIONALLY AND THEN PHYSICALLY AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, A KEY THING TO REMEMBER, SOMETIMES PEOPLE CONFLATE LAND MINES WITH CLUSTER MUNITIONS AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY QUITE DIFFERENT.

THERE WAS A COVER STORY IN THE NEW YORK TIMES THIS PAST WEEKEND TALKING ABOUT LAND MINES IN UKRAINE AND THE KEY PART ABOUT MOST OF THAT IS THAT A LAND MINE IS DESIGNED TO INJURE A SOLDIER, SO THAT TWO OTHER SOLDIERS HAVE TO COME ON TO THE FIELD AND TAKE THAT PERSON OFF.

SO YOU ACTUALLY GET THREE FOR ONE THAT ARE TAKEN OFF THE FIELD.

THESE CLUSTER MUNITIONS LIKE THIS ORIGINALLY, WHICH IS NOW A LAMP, THESE THINGS WERE DESIGNED TO KILL.

SO WHEN PEOPLE FIND THEM IN THE GROUND, GENERALLY SPEAKING, THEY DON'T SURVIVE.

I MEAN THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE DANGER, RIGHT?

AND THEY'RE SMALL AND WHEN THESE THINGS ARE IN THE GROUND, YOU CAN BARELY SEE THAT THEY ARE THERE.

THEY LOOK LIKE ROCKS OR IF YOU FIND ONE LIKE THIS IN A TREE IT LOOKS LIKE A TOY TO A KID, SO THEY'RE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ANIMAL.

THEY'RE SMALL, THEY'RE HARD TO FIND AND THEY'RE MEANT TO BE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEADLY.

>> LAURA: WELL, THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR REPORTING OF THIS TODAY.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT AND FRUSTRATING STORY, SO THANK YOU.

>> Coates: THANK YOU, LAURA.

>> Redfern: THANKS LAURA.