Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by: Viewers like You >>Nash: This week on New Mexico in Focus we head to the East Mountains to explore the in's and out's of the almost entirely volunteer efforts of New Mexico Search and Rescue.

>>Rodgers: We are a highly trained group of individuals, primarily all volunteers, and they need this training to keep their efficiencies up.

>>Nash: And with Election Day barreling down, we revisit Albuquerque mayoral candidates stances on the number one issue for voters.

New Mexico in Focus starts now >>Nash: Thanks for being here.

I'm Nash Jones.

Since this is the last time we will join you before Tuesday's election, we want to take some time to remind you of what we've heard from the campaign trail over the last several weeks.

We've spent the bulk of our time and energy on arguably the biggest local race in the state, mayor of Albuquerque, with a recent journal poll showing crime out ahead of the issues most important to voters.

Tonight, we're going to bring you each canidate in that race had to say on the matter, with the exception of Darren White, who refused to speak with us.

Then, did you know that prosecutors, like your local District Attorney, keep lists of police officers with credibility issues?

These are cops that they won't call as trial witnesses because juries can't rely on what they say.

And there are nearly 100 such officers across the state, according to reporting from journalist Joshua Bowling.

Later this hour, he talks with a prosecutor and a public defender about these so-called Brady lists, including how and why they're put together.

But we start the show in the Cibola National Forest.

That's where 69 year old, Leslie McIntyre went for a walk on March 2nd, and never came home.

A flurry of activity followed as New Mexico Search and Rescue mobilized to look for McIntyre in shifts over the next 36 hours.

They didn't find her, and the almost entirely volunteer team suspended the search.

Earlier this month, crews returned to the area under the banner of Search and Rescue to look for clues as to what happened to McIntyre.

And they took the opportunity to turn the mission into a training exercise with correspondent Elizabeth Miller at the helm.

Our team was there to document how Search and Rescue works, and how dependent it is on all those volunteers.

>>Searles: With the months going by, I realize I'm pretty anxious about -- just the fact that she's out there someplace and I would like to know where she is and what happened to her.

>>Miller: Search and Rescue crews worked from before 8 a.m.

until after 4 p.m.

today searching for signs of what happened to Leslie McIntyre in March.

>>Searles: She was my friend for 40 years and she was 69.

She lived next door to me for 30 [years] but she had lived in the neighborhood for 45 years, and so we were just good friends.

It was beautiful.

Saturday morning, 8:30, I was going out.

I'd take her dog for a walk and she wanted to go with me.

So off we went, and just a third mile up the hill behind where we live.

I suggested she go back because that was enough, because I was going to do three more miles with her dog, so she said, “okay.” So she went back.

And that was about 9:00 Saturday morning.

So I did my hike for about 50 more minutes and got back with the dog and went to her house, but she wasn't there.

I called the neighbors, but she wasn't there.

And then I drove around a little bit.

After a bit of that, I realized this was going to be more than I can handle.

So I went back to the house and, thought about it for ten minutes and then called 911.

>>Miller: And what do you know about what they found in those first searches?

>>Searles: Nothing.

They didn't find anything.

I just know she's not here anymore.

>>Dodge: Zip mouth and listen up, because we've got some important stuff you guys need to hear.

Today is a training mission.

At the same time, the mission itself is to go back and revisit a case where a woman went missing.

And at this point, we're looking for evidence that she might be still in the area that we searched.

Normally when a mission is called, it is fast and furious within an hour.

We've got this set up already, and we've got ground teams that are needing to get out in the field.

So everything is fast forwarded to an hour, rather than this type of a procedure where we've had two months to out people in slots and get the planning done, we have invited all the teams that were involved in the actual mission back in March, which was 13 teams, and we have probably 100 responders here today between Incident Management team and the teams that are out in the field.

And normally that would be hard to get within an hour.

We call people and these are all volunteers.

And so therefore they might be at work, they might be at soccer practices with their kids.

A lot of times it's at night and we're searching at night.

So depending on what someone has going on the next morning, they may or may not be able to come to a mission.

In this case, people have rearranged their schedules and they've checked and rechecked, and we've got a lot more responders than what we would normally have.

>>Larese: So when the call came out -- we hammered this immediate circle where there is a high probability.

[Tree branches breaking] >>Rescuer: On the left.

>>Larese: And so, a lot of the search has now expanded way beyond -- That's kind of what we're doing today.

We're looking at the extremes of what could happen.

Did did she hit 20 miles?

You don't know, probably not, but -- maybe.

>>Hererra: Is anyone not ready?

>>Volunteer: Ready down here.

>>Hererra: Search!

So our main goal here is ground coverage.

The more square footage that we can cover, the better it is.

In a search for a person that we would be looking for that might respond back to us, or someone would be yelling and sort of following trails and stuff like that.

Now we're just we're looking even in the most tiny little places.

>>Miller: Were you out with the initial search in March?

I was, I was on Operation 2.

Yeah.

>>Miller: That was the overnight one?

Yes.

>>Miller: How was that?

It was a 12 hour.

So I got back to Instant Base at 6 a.m.

It's very cold.

It snowed.

It was dark.

[ATV enging revving] You get the adrenaline rush when you're driving to Instant Base and then just sort of holds you over the entire night.

It's really, really difficult.

So you can start thinking about, like, “Man, we've got to get this done now!” and that can sort of affect your searching.

So, you know, on this, I'm a lot more focused.

I'm able to just sort of focus on -- I'm looking for -- even the smallest thing, like a bone, a tiny little one.

>>Volunteer: Real quick.

If you come across bones you're not sure what they are, take a picture of each -- >>Rodgers: Historically, through the years, we have had very few large missions because we resolve most our missions within the first 12 hours.

So we don't really get involved with a lot of large IMT So this means that these people need to get out and get to learn and train and do this stuff.

And we are a highly trained group of individuals, primarily all volunteers, and they need this training to keep their efficiencies up.

>>Volunteer: We're at our staging area and getting ready to deploy.

>>Rodgers: We got called in that day, probably about 20 some odd people.

Searchers have gone out there doing that.

But unfortunately, no sign her.

>>Miller: And how do you make the decision that it's time to call off that seach?

>>Rodgers: That's a touchy situation.

So basically under law, and under our policies, through the DPS, if we have had clues that the subject may not be in our search area anymore or should never been started up, or one that we watch out for is the safety of our volunteers.

So if we don't find the subject during that time frame, we can actually suspend the SAR mission and come back at a later date if we need to do so.

>>Garcia: A note about tracking when you download the app, it will default to high resolution When we searched for Leslie in March, we initially searched what we call the 25% ring and you can see this actually here, each one of these lines is a separate person tracking back then.

So we had searched that 25.

So in today's mission what we're doing that same 25 is still there.

We are searching now the 50.

This runs on a server.

They also have an app for iOS and Android.

So every team member has a virtual copy.

We then need any additional devices for this.

It runs off of their cell phones.

And the best part is if they lose reception, the phone keeps it all.

Prior to five years ago, we used to use paper maps vellum, which is an overlay like a projector where you would draw with markers.

I still have some of the stuff in my truck.

You would can draw everything.

You would get mad.

Ever since we moved to this around Covid, we have had multiple occasions where -- because of what we're observing, because of all of this, we have saved lives.

>>Miller: These new technologies are more effective.

But if the volunteers needed to operate them aren't available during the narrow window of time when a missing person could still be found alive, that tool gets left on the shelf.

>>Rodgers: We approach every search -- except for like this training mission as a subject that is going to be alive.

I don't ever go into a Recovery Phase.

Ever.

Survivability is not one of the statistics that I worry about.

We can only respond with what resources are willing to come out and help.

You've got to understand, in the Search and Rescue Program for state in New Mexico.

I've got about a thousand volunteers throughout the state that are willing to come out and help, but they're all volunteers.

They all have Monday through Friday jobs, and they will provide what they can.

Typically on an incident like this, we might get maybe 5 or 6 people come out to be able to help.

Needless to say, typically find our missing subjects during that time frame, so I don't need to go into extended periods.

But then if I want to look at specialized resouces, drones, helicopters -- [Drone taking off] >>Berry: If it's a person that's just -- gone missing, we'll do more of a -- hasty search.

We'll fly a drone above the trail system, and we'll fly the actual trails.

If it's at night, we can run a FLIR.

Camera.

Thermal.

Everything red is hot.

Evidence search, it's what -- What might change is we're still doing a area search, but we may fly a little lower elevation, and fly slower.

Today we flew west of where the incident base was from her house, and we did an extensive grid search, and we were just looking for any kind of any color which at this point it would be like blue jeans.

Right now here's reds, blues -- So I could click on that and it will actually show me where that is.

<<Miller: So what do you think is leading to the delay that it's taking a week for somebody to call you guys to come in?

>>Berry: Well, so that's actually going to change.

It's that kind of -- a delay that's because the agencies don't want to call us.

We are free resource.

We don't cost them anything.

But, you know, that's a very common problem.

So this past -- legislative session, there was a law that was passed, that now Search and Rescue gets called at the same time.

Our time frame is probably 30 minutes.

So from the time the state police get called, they contact a Incident Commander on call.

They determine what kind of resources they would need and then they call the individual teams.

So hopefully, that's not going to be an issue -- you know, anymore.

>>Rodgers: One of the prime kind of resources that we use is Canines, we have Lifeline canines, primarily that we use, Track and Trailing and -- Air Scent dogs.

[Treking through the woods] >>Mary: Indy is a -- Single Purpose Human Remains Detection dog.

>>Miller: When you said your dog shows interest, what does that look like?

It can look like different things.

One of the most common ones is the dogs kind of going along and suddenly goes -- [Sniffs air] you know, his nose goes way up and he's like, “oh, wait a minute.” And then he stops and kind of starts -- looking around, trying to figure out what's going on.

Other times it might be, a sharp turn, nodding a head up at a sharp turn.

It depends on the dog.

Different dogs do different things, and it's just a natural thing that they do.

And you have to learn what your particular dog does.

Since she's been missing such a long time.

It's been six months, that if she's here, that she's deceased and we're going to probably have scattered skeleton remains because of -- predators and birds and such.

>>Volunteer: The methodical area searches in the field those go by one by one.

>>Miller: While some of the debriefings suggest that possible evidence came up from their hours of effort, they're still without a clear answer.

And it's also possible that they will be back out in the spring running yet another training exercise, searching this ground, trying to find answers.

>>Gaier: We have had some potential things and the next step is everything that we think might be a part of that.

We are going to turn over to the detective that was in charge of this case.

We're going to take all the debriefing all the mapped data, see what was covered.

If another training mission is decided to be in this area, we will apply everything we learned from this training mission to make it more effective.

>>Miller: What do you see in the benefit of, like, training mission like this?

>>Pigott: I think it's really good for multiple agencies to come together and see each other and get to work together in situations like this, that's where you really build trust between, you know, a group like ours, Albuquerque Mountain Rescue Cibola Search and Rescue, Civil Air Patrol you know, New Mexico State Police to come together like this, and work together, you know, really builds those bonds and makes us more effective, when big missions come up.

>>Miller: For New Mexico PBS.

I'm Elizabeth Miller reporting.

>>Nash: As you heard from Elizabeth, Search Crews may have found some clues.

but it'll be up to New Mexico State Police to make sense of what they came up with during the somewhat unusual mission in the vast majority of cases, Search and Rescue successfully finds its subject, alive.

We got some data from state police.

Since 2012, the number of Search and Rescue missions is trending down, from nearly 120 that year to just 81 so far this year, including the multiple searches for Leslie McIntyre.

State police tell us that of the hundreds of searches during the last 13 years, just five have been unsuccessful.

We're now just days away from the election, and in the state's largest city, we're leaning into what voters care most about.

A recent Albuquerque Journal poll showed 53% of likely voters say crime is the biggest issue facing city residents, while homelessness followed pretty close behind at 47%.

All other issues were dwarfed by comparison.

We have spent weeks covering the election, including the mayoral races in Santa Fe and Albuquerque, the public financing system and voter resources.

And you can find all of those in-depth interviews on our YouTube page.

But with the election on Tuesday, we want to remind voters in the biggest local race of the season, the one for Albuquerque mayor of what candidates told us about the biggest issue crime and policing.

And a reminder that top conservative contender Darren White declined our invitation to come on the show.

So here are the other five candidates in alphabetical order.

You'll hear a slightly shorter answer from Eddie Varela, who we deemed a lower tier candidate with the help of petition signatures and fundraising data, and offered a briefer initial interview.

>>Nash: While crime rates are dropping in the city of Albuquerque, they remain a top concern for a lot of voters.

You're campaigning on the hashtag, #CleanUpABQ.

What does that mean to you?

>>Armijo: So, I disagree that crime is dropping because I don't know anybody who has been -- >>Nash: Statistics show that crime is dropping -- >>Armijo: Who?

Is it mayor Keller statistics?

>>Nash: Well, they're both from the Albuquerque Police Department, but the FBI statistics do confirm it as well, that -- crime rates are down compared to the last several years, this year.

>>Armijo: In what categories?

In all categories?

>>Nash: In most categories -- In all categories for APD, in most categories for -- >>Together: The FBI.

>>Armijo: See?

So, that's what I'm saying.

That's not consistent across the board, for both the FBI and APD.

>>Nash: Well, they don't really compare apples to apples, the FBI database, you have to break it down by type of crime.

Whereas the APD, statistics are structured slightly differently, but they are showing a significant -- a statistically significant drop in crime rates, across the board in Albuquerque this year.

>>Armijo: Yeah, I don't -- I would say -- let's just agree to disagree on that one so I can answer your questions.

So let's go back to your question.

>>Nash: So, the question would be, your hashtag, #CleanUpABQ What does it mean?

>>Armijo: So, here's a couple of things.

You know, a lot of business owners that are in the downtown area, in the Nob Hill area are super, incredibly frustrated with the homeless and with the crime.

And so the the hashtag #cleanupAlbuquerque is you want to be able to go to work, run your business in a clean environment and not worry about crime or homelessness or defecation or urination or vandalism or all of those things.

So what we -- what I want to do is bring back that safe -- safety to the small businesses that are suffering from it, and from the -- to the residents as well.

>>Nash: How do you do that?

>>Armijo: Well, we have to recruit.

We need more officers.

We do.

They're the highest paid officers in the region, and yet we still have a hard time recruiting.

Why is that?

>>Nash: Why is that?

>>Armijo: Yeah, I has to be a moral issue.

People talk, you know, there are things like.

I've been offered jobs with way more money.

And I'll ask people about that company and they'll tell me, “well, yeah, this person's like this, you know, if you're willing to put up with it, is it worth the money?” And I think that's the problem is that we don't have the reputation at APD that allows cops to be cops.

And so there's a morale -- and I've talked to cops that have left to other states, because their parents are still here, and they've talked to me and they've said that they just -- the morale was issue, they are too top heavy.

So there's a lot of things that need to be changed in order for us to boost up recruitment.

>>Nash: You're talking about low morale within the department?

>>Armijo: Yes.

>>Nash: And that may be the case.

There's also a trust issue with the community.

>>Armijo: Oh, absolutely.

>>Nash: And building trust with the the Albuquerque community, within APD is one of your goals if elected mayor.

More than a decade of U.S.

Justice Department oversight over the Albuquerque Police Department for its -- use of excessive force.

Has has just ended this year.

There's also the fallout from a decades long corruption and bribery scheme with the DWI officers.

Seven APD officers have pleaded guilty to federal crimes so far.

What would you do differently from the previous mayors to instill a culture of accountability at the Albuquerque Police Department?

>>Armijo: So, absolutely.

I mean, I think we need to go back to be cops, really.

You know, but in order to do that, we need more cops.

And we need to look at community policing policies and implementing them.

And and I'm not saying that they don't have those policies now, but the implementation of those policies do not seem to be effective with this leadership.

But we have -- you're right, trust and accountability is something we need to rebuild between APD and the community.

One of the challenges now is -- when people call in, if they need APD just the long wait times, for that.

Those are things like -- we have to fix that.

>>Nash: Crime is going down.

What would you say to Albuquerque residents who say they feel less safe than when you took office in 2017?

>>Keller: First, I would -- just understand that, I probably feel the same way in a sense that the difference between perception, is that it just trails, the actual crime statistics.

So, you know, I'm looking at a situation where we've had crime going up for ten years, and now, thanks to civilians and technology, it's finally going down.

But that just started last year.

And so I believe that if we continue that for another couple of years, we will all feel safer.

So, we just got to continue the path and not go backwards.

But I agree, right now it still hasn't the perception hasn't caught up with the statistical reality.

And that's normal and expected.

>>Nash: Okay.

Keeping with crime and policing the 11 year Consent Decree, Department of Justice oversight over the Albuquerque Police Department ended, this year.

You wrote at the time, “after years of hard work, we've defied the odds and delivered.” What did the Consent Decree deliver?

What did APD, in your administration deliver?

>>Keller: No one thought we could actually do it.

First off, like actually getting out of the consent decree, we were one of the faster cities in the modern era to even do that.

And the reason why we did that is because we decided to actually do the real change that would last.

So there's, three big things that are different.

Number one, the department holds itself accountable.

They still mess up, right?

That's a different thing.

But now, because the office of the Superintendent a reform that I created, they actually discipline officers.

They fire officers.

And so there is that self-correcting mechanism.

That's a huge change.

The other one is that we're rebuilding the ranks.

We always knew we had an officer shortage.

And you see that now changing because of the confidence in the department.

And the third thing is that now we know, that individuals will be held accountable but also systematically, technology has been a huge difference-maker because when you do things like have gunshot detection and you're reading license plates and you're using databases to connect up with gunshot shell casings, to actually catch folks and put them in jail when they shoot someone.

Our department is now capable of that again.

Like, our department functions in the way that it was not before, both for internal accountability but also for crime fighting.

>.Nash: Okay.

Despite all of the reforms that happened under the Consent Decree, Albuquerque officers still killed people at the highest rates of any major metro area last year.

That would be, 14 per 1 million residents.

How is that what reform looks like, when people talk about not feeling safe?

What role do police officers play in that?

>>Keller: Well, reform was about making sure that when there is a wrongful use of force, officers are held accountable.

Reform was not about reducing the number.

Now we want those to go together, right?

We all want less violence in either way, whether it's, an officer being the perpetrator or not, but the challenge is that that's really driven by crime, fentanyl, violence on our streets.

Guns on our streets.

And the difference is, is the officer using constitutional policing?

And that's what's true -- >>Nash: If those are all constitutional uses of force, Why does Albuquerque stand out above the rest of the large metros, like -- Why are numbers so high?

Why are our officers killing more people?

>>Keller: Three reasons.

Guns; more prevalent here than almost anywhere else.

Narcotics, which is also been a longstanding challenge.

And the third reason is, Domestic Violence.

And so we have crime challenges that drive officers feeling, unfortunately, that they have to use Constitutional Use of Force.

So those two issues -- it's like a Venn Diagram, like they overlap, but they're also distinctly different.

>>Nash: Meanwhile, seven Albuquerque police officers have pleaded guilty to federal charges in a decades-long Corruption and Bribery scheme, getting APD's Internal Affairs in order was part of the Concent Decree, as well.

So how can corruption like this take place in a reformed department?

>>Nash: Well, as you mentioned, this took place under, I think, four different Mayors, like six different Police Chiefs -- >>Nash: Decades-long.

>>Keller: Yeah.

The difference is when did it stop?

Under my administration.

>>Nash: When Albuquerque Police Chief Harold Medina said, “there is a perception among city residents that there's a crime crisis in the city, driven by news reports, primarily,” You wrote that, quote, “this isn't just a perception.

It is our reality.” However, crime rates are dropping according to both APD and FBI data.

Are you saying you don't buy that?

>>Sanchez: I don't buy that.

I don't buy that at all.

And the reason why I don't buy that is because when we, as police officers, would be out there working the streets, we used to give it what we call, The Grandmother Test.

If your grandmother doesn't feel safe, then the perception of safety is not there.

So right now, currently, as a business owner, I can walk outside of the streets and see 40 to 60 drug deals a day.

I watch prostitution happening every day.

I call the police almost every day and nothing changes for me.

And I talked to several other business owners that are up and down Central Avenue, as well.

And all you have to do is drive up and down Central and see exactly what I'm talking about.

You can drive down San Mateo, Louisiana -- anything that offshoot -- any street, major street that offshoots Central like Coors -- >>Nash: Is this the case, though, of -- >>Sanchez: A large amount of drug dealing and criminal activity -- >>Nash: Is the case of perception lagging behind the data?

>>Sanchez: Well, we also have another issue, is people are ot calling the police because they know that nothing is going to happen.

That person -- that they get called on -- and I've done it myself, I've called the police and police have not shown up.

I've called the police in reference to, in my experience, as a police officer, should have been an arrest or a citation and it's not being done.

>>Nash: So you're saying that may skew the data.

Are you saying that data is inaccurate?

>>Sanchez: The data is inaccurate because the amount of police presence is not what we need.

I mean, is not what we need.

And then we need to make sure that we're accurately reporting the data.

And basically they can manipulate any numbers that they feel they need to.

>>Nash: Are you saying they, the city, has manipulated their crime data or falsified those numbers?

>>Sanchez: There's a very good chance that they have, based on the facts of what we're seeing out on the streets and still witnessing.

>>Nash: Do you have any evidence that they have falsified?

>>Sanchez: I do know for a fact that people are not calling the police to get -- So, if the people aren't calling the police to report the crime because the police aren't showing up.

>>Nash: That's an accusation that the numbers are not necessarily representative of the amount of crime that's actually happened.

That's different than falsifying data.

>>Sanchez: Okay, well, if you say that, then -- what I'm saying is that you can't get accurate data if you're not making the accurate amount of contacts with the public.

>>Nash: Okay.

I think I understand what you're saying.

DOJ oversight ended this year after 11 years.

And we are also seeing at APD a fallout of a decades long DWI, corruption and bribery scandal.

To date, seven APD officers have pleaded guilty to federal charges in that case.

What would you do differently from previous mayors, including Mayor Tim Keller, to instill a culture of accountability at APD?

>>Sanchez: And that's the thing.

You have to have a culture of accountability.

When I was a police sergeant, that was my first chance of actually being involved in a situation where I supervised people.

And one of the main things that I did was make sure that I held everybody accountable.

There was no drama in my squads and everybody was treated, the same.

And also expectations were out there.

What needs to happen now is we need to bring that that kind of a culture back, and we need to make sure that these people understand these officers and city employees understand that we work for the citizens of Albuquerque.

>>Nash: How do you do that?

>>Sanchez: You basically instill the culture.

I have a business, a small business right now.

And having my small business, my employees -- I can be here right now because I know that my employees are going to be handling my business just as I would, because I've instilled that culture.

If you can instill the right and correct culture, and that's a culture of having a conscience and doing the right things each and every day.

Then you can actually grow your department, you can grow your business and you can grow your client base.

And those are the kinds of things that we need to do at the City.

>>Nash: Some folks may see your resume as a prosecutor and think crime is going to be one of your top priorities.

It definitely is, for many Albuquerque voters though, crime rates are dropping.

Will crime be one of your top priorities if elected mayor?

>>Uballez: Absolutely.

I like to think of it as an ecosystem.

And I like to think of it as a broader issue that we need to deal with in a comprehensive way.

Why I'm not running for DA or for AG, although, those are positions I could easily step into, is because those aren't positions that have enough tools to deal with the issues that fall to the criminal justice system, right?

So as a career prosecutor, I've seen both the worst right?

Corruption.

I've seen cartel leaders, I've seen killers, but I've also seen a lot of people, probably the majority who end up in criminal court because of poverty or because of addiction or because of mental health.

These are things that a mayor that a city, our community have a responsibility to solve before they fall to the criminal justice system.

>>Nash: As U.S.

Attorney, you prosecuted Albuquerque's DWI officers who participated in a decades-long bribery and corruption scheme.

Also, the Department of Justice oversight over the APD, was lifted this year.

11 years of oversight, through the Consent Decree.

What would you do differently than past mayors to instill a culture of accountability in our police department?

>>Uballez: Yeah, I think the people of Albuquerque need and wants a mayor who can run a police department.

We've seen what happens when we have civilians who don't understand law enforcement and trust in law enforcement.

and not pursue the needs of the community from the global perspective of public safety.

For me, that's the key, right?

So not thinking about the third of our budget that goes to APD as a policing budget, but as a public safety budget.

And what does that mean?

Right?

So we address the hard issues, Right?

So corruption, internal, you know, problems, drug trafficking, violence with the police response.

But we address the issues that are driven by poverty and by mental health issues and by addiction with medical responses and social services.

Right.

This is all public safety.

These all bleed together.

And when I've talked with thousands of people all across Albuquerque City over the past five months, every one of them has seen, right, that we have some, the crime stats that are falling, issues that our cops should be handling and many issues that we as a city need to step up and help.

>>Nash: And with the issues that the cops should be handling if they're not handling them in -- a stand up way, if they are falling short, standards and practices and a culture that, at least, Police Chief Harold Medina has said has sprung up out of this accountability project with the DOJ.

What should happen?

>>Uballez: We've got to hold people accountable, right?

And that starts with leadership, right?

When you have rank and file who don't trust in their leadership, then they are not going to be operating on a single mission with the rest of the city towards public safety.

Right?

They will be operating on their own.

The thing that I've learned is running public servants and as a public servant myself for the past 15 years, is that people who sign up to do this work, not just cops, but city workers too, sign up because they love this city, and especially our law enforcement.

They sign up because they will put their lives on the line for other people.

The thing that we have to give them is the support and the direction of where to use that energy and that -- that focus.

And so what's big for me and thinking about accountability for police, is accountability for leadership, right?

That is what drives how an agency moves.

That is what drives whether people are discontent.

That is what drives people to corruption or to simply failing their jobs when their leadership is not giving them clear direction and inspiration.

>>Nash: Has Police Chief Harold Medina done that?

>>Uballez: So, I think that what we -- what I know from talking with rank and file, who I've known for 15 years, and the people of Albuquerque too, is that they've lost faith in this police chief.

I think that's critical for any departments, right?

It's an intangible, it's not a thing like funding its not a thing like technology.

But the leadership of a place really affects how it serves the people of the community.

And so I think when the leadership fails, we see failing agencies.

>>Cailley: Crime in Albuquerque is amoung voters biggest concerns heading into this election.

What is your perception of crime in the city, and what 2 or 3 specific actions would you take to address it in your first 100 days if elected?

>>Varela: My perception of crime is reality.

I was a paramedic for 17 years.

I worked the streets.

I'm actually from the streets.

I know what crime is and it's at an all time high.

It's terrible.

I do have a plan.

And the plan is very, very simple, but not very difficult to enforce.

I don't believe it's going to be hard.

The first thing we do is we're going to institute a curfew for 18 year olds and under.

They will not be on the streets of Albuquerque.

We have young people 14, 12, 11, killing people.

We have a new generation of youth out there so we have to find a way to deal with it.

So, we're going to do a curfew.

We're also going to start a new program called, Police ROTC in the high schools.

Juniors and seniors, boys and girls, who will be in a program that teaches them law enforcement.

It'll be taught by, retired law enforcement officers.

When they graduate from this program, they will be immediately put into our police safety aid program, and they will be guaranteed a job.

And they will work there until they reach age 21 which makes them eligible to be a police officer.

And then we will absorb them into the police department.

And, also, the most important part of our plan is we're going to do something called Police Day work, where we're going to bring in retired certified peace officers, and they'll be able to work day shifts of their choice, and we'll pay them well.

And they're going to do one thing and one thing only.

They're going to be visible in our community because peace officers tell me that's the key to success.

Visibility.

>>Nash: Find the full interviews with the Albuquerque mayoral candidates you just heard from on our YouTube page.

And a reminder that early voting ends tomorrow, Saturday, the 1st.

Election day is on Tuesday, November 4th.

If you have not turned in your absentee ballot yet at this point, you're going to want to hand deliver it to a polling site or ballot dropbox instead of mailing it.

And if you're still not registered to vote, you can do that in person.

When you go to cast your ballot, you'll need to bring a photo ID, and if it doesn't have your address on it, also, bring a piece of mail like a utility bill, bank statement, or paycheck.

If you're already registered, you do not need ID to vote.

Now we turn our attention to a somewhat cloudy corner of the legal system.

What happens if a prosecutor determines a police officer cannot be trusted as a witness at trial?

Well, they have to hand that information over to the defense, to US Supreme Court cases, lay out the rules of the road.

They are Brady v Maryland and United States v Giglio, and you'll hear those last names used interchangeably in this next segment.

For decades, prosecutors have kept lists of questionable cops known as Brady lists or Giglio lists.

The public rarely saw them, though.

More recently, in New Mexico, some DA's offices have taken to posting them online in the interest of transparency.

Journalist Joshua Bowling did some reporting on these lists back in August, and tonight he's joined in studi by Jason Greenlee, General Counsel for the Bernalillo County DA's office, and Jonathan Ibarra, President of the New Mexico Criminal Defense Lawyers Association.

The three got into who winds up on the list and why?

What happens when defendants don't get this information, and why the public has a right to see it?

>>Bowling: Gentlemen, thank you for joining me today.

I have reported on the contents of nearly every Brady list across the state.

These are lists that spell out which, exactly, law enforcement officers, prosecutors have concerns about and why.

The concerns that I've reported on range on a spectrum from, somewhat ordinary, like a pattern of dishonesty or use of force violations to the extreme, like allegations of stealing evidence or possessing evidence of children being sexually assaulted.

But I want to start our discussion with some simple ABCs.

Namely, who maintains these lists and why do you see them as important?

Jason, let's start with you.

>>Greenlee: So these lists are maintained by, prosecutorial offices, DA's offices, Attorney General, anyone who has, sort of a prosecutorial function.

The importance is that, in the United States Constitution, defendants have a Due Process right, to be apprized of both exculpatory evidence and, if we're calling witnesses, if those witnesses' credibility can be impeached or they have a prior conduct of relevant -- the prior history of relevant, bad conduct, the criminal accused are entitled to have that as well.

And, as prosecutors, it's -- part of our duty to ensure that they're made aware of those.

>>Bowling: So, Jonathan, you've worn a lot of hats in your career, and you can bring some different perspectives to this.

These lists, I think, exist in an interesting place, right?

Because they're public, but they're not always public-facing.

But I want to hear from you.

What does the process look like when somebody like Jason needs to reach out to somebody like you, about a Brady or Giglio violation >>Ibarra: Depends on the situation.

A lot of the times we get -- as we're getting closer to trial or as we're doing pretrial interviews, the defense attorney will get a questionnaire from the prosecutors that the officer has filled out to say, do they have any of these particular issues?

And if they answer “yes”, and that's something that we can pursue further, either in the interview or by a motions sometimes we'll have prosecutors reach out to us specifically when something big is happening that we -- before we're getting the questionnaires.

And we've had that recently, where we, you know, there were officers who -- it was clear things were happening.

And so, you know, we weren't getting those questionnaires.

We were just having directcommunication from the prosecutors.

Every once in a while, we'll hear at the same time everybody else does, depending on on how it works.

>>Bowling: Sure.

So, like we mentioned earlier, there's a spectrum of what lands you as a cop on the Brady list.

I've seen disclosures made when an officer is accused of simply speaking too harshly to somebody in a crime scene.

And I've seen disclosures made when an officers accused of a pretty serious federal crime.

And on paper, at least, without any qualifying language, those two things seem to hold something of the same weight.

So, Jason, how do you determine whether an officer or deputy's alleged behavior is serious enough to make this disclosure?

Serious enough to, you know, not put them on the stand or do not go with their case?

>>Greenlee: Well, I think that it always has to be disclosed if it has to do with their credibility.

If what its, sort of, hooking into is they were dishonest in the statement they made in an administrative, judicial some sort of proceeding.

Now depending on the entire context, you might be able to imagine a situation in which you would still feel comfortable calling that officer as a witness.

And they could sort of explain, “yes, it is true, in this administrative proceeding, I've said X.” “It's for these reasons I'm embarrassed about it.

I know that I should not have done that but --” and maybe you think to yourself, okay, perhaps a jury will understand that is like an explainable human error and will, in weighing all the other evidence, will still be able to conclude on balance, this person really did this crime.

There's other instances where, you know, if there's a judicial finding that you lied under oath, I think that's going to be a career killer probably for everyone.

It's statewide.

It can be trickier sometimes when, somebody accuses an officer of, like, say, a use of force.

They review it, that does not seem what the lapel video reveals.

You watch the lapel video, you're like, this doesn't seem - And the fact the department exonerates them and you sort of think to yourself, well, is this mere allegation that I think is in fact false, anything, and I would submit to you that we would probably not treat that as Giglio material, but it -- but it is tricky because I do think as a prosecutor you want to err on the side of disclosure.

Because it's always better to have produced it and later have a judge decide -- Ultimately, I don't think that comes in or it's not relevant or it's too attenuated than, make that call on your own, and then at some point down the road, somebody is like, wait a minute, you should have like brought this up to people.

And so -- >>Bowling: You're better safe than sorry.

So you've both kind of alluded to this.

I reported, specifically on one instance where another District Attorney's office up north said it never received information from a law enforcement agency that one of its deputies was on -- had committed a Brady or Giglio violation, but he in fact had.

And this came up very late into the trial.

So how can a situation like that impact things from a defense perspective?

>>Ibarra: I mean, there's -- again, run the gamut you have all the way from, potentially wrong wrongful convictions.

Which would be the worst case scenario, right?

Sometimes you get it really early and it doesn't make a huge difference, you know, I've seen, issues with officers, you know, come out really late and, you know, mistrial cases, things like that, and that, that puts all the work that went into a trial, all the not just the defense attorneys and the defendants and the prosecutors and the court and the jurors and the witnesses and everybody who went through all that effort just to have things fall apart.

And so, you know, again, nobody, nobody wants that >>Greenlee: It's also, as a prosecutor, if that happens Appropriately so, the prosecutor is going to be asked to know what did you know and when and if and if you didn't know what, if any steps did you take to try to know that?

And so part of what having a more robust Giglio process for trying to get to those answers in our office, I mean, it's first and foremost it's about justice, but it's also about protecting our lawyers to be able to say, we were really trying to know the answer to these questions, like, we understand that we're obligated to know.

And we were asking.

So if they told us there was nothing there, we were misled like we asked them and they affirmatively told us on this date, there's nothing to see here.

Only later to find out.

And it's yeah -- I mean, you can really you can lose cases and just have them never be salvageable.

You know, John is absolutely right.

You don't compromise officers on the streets for all sorts of reasons.

But also, you know, what a a tragedy if an officer responds and investigates the case where you or your family member was hurt and they're not going to be able to serve as a witness because they have, you know, these really, you know, damaging, you know, things in their file.

>>Bowling: We spent a lot of time discussing what these lists look like and what they mean to your office and your office.

But I want to talk a little bit now about how we deal with these publicly.

Jason, your office was the first in the state under former D.A.

Raul Torres to publicly put these on your website.

Why do you see that as important?

And what's what's the value to the public beyond a prosecutor and a defense lawyer having access to these?

>>Greenlee: Well, one, I mean, in terms of transparency, there's probably not a lot of reason that this information should be a secret as between prosecutors and defense, like it's some sort of like we have some sort of secret knowledge about who untrustworthy cops are, but we sort of keep it under our hat.

No.

If that's if that's the determination that our office made, then I think people have a right to know that.

And I think that, you know, you want you know, I mean, I think it is no secret that in recent -- the recent past, there's been a lot of hard conversations about policing the role of policing in our society to the extent that it's fair and I think that it's incumbent upon law enforcement, in which DA's are a part of our prosecutor agencies to do what we can to restore public faith in our institutions.

And I think that transparency is one of the best ways to get at that.

>>Ibarra: And I think, you know, it's that list is also just the officers that the that this District Attorney's office is determined they're not going to depend on as witnesses anymore.

Right?

But that list, that's public-facing for the District Attorney's office is specifically a we are not calling these witnesses list, as opposed to a these are officers who have had problems list.

>>Bowling: That's a good distinction.

And I think, you know, with the handful of DA's offices that put these lists online, there's kind of a living, breathing document to some extent, right.

Like you can transition on to that and you can transition off.

So how do you make sure that, you know, maybe ruin a cop's reputation over what could be a potentially minor offense?

>>Greenlee: It's a big concern.

I mean, it's something we take seriously, because we know that making that decision, can really affect their career.

Maybe in some instances, maybe effectively, end it.

I think that -- we're trying to move forward as John said, where if you're a peer on our Giglio list, it will mean, we're just not calling you as witness like you're just not -- Our office has made a determination we're not going to use you.

It has not happened yet.

It's happened in a few states.

It is a question of when and not if an officer's going to sue the DA's office for placing them on -- a public-facing Brady list and sort of what that's going to look like and the few places that's happened, it's come out sort of different ways, but the bad news overall but good news in making the determination is sometimes I think it's just not particularly close.

Like the conduct is so egregious.

You're just like, okay, we're never going to call them.

And I want to also say that I think part of the reason I know that Raul Torres and we continue with the public-facing Giglio list of people we wouldn't call is -- it's not unconnected, I think it's gotten better.

But I know that there's been stories and I'm not saying anything either of you don't know that historically -- cops that maybe were problems in one jurisdiction have been able to sort of pop up in another part of the state.

And maybe if DA's offices get serious about having public Giglio Lists, that can be -- because I have had now -- I have been contacted by other law enforcement agencies that say, “can you tell us why so-and-so is on your Giglio list?” And it's because they have applied at X law enforcement agency, and that department is trying to decide whether or not they want -- and again, I wouldn't be the decider on that, obviously.

But I typically say, “Okay, I'll send you what information I have.” and you can -- they're going to have to make their own choice.

But I do think -- it's not the whole solution to that problem, but it's maybe a small piece.

>>Bowling: Jonathan Ibarra, Jason Greenlee, thank you both for joining me.

>>Greenlee: Appreciate you.

>>Ibarra: Thank you.

>>Nash: Thanks to Joshua Bowling for his reporting, for hosting that conversation for us.

You can see the full version of Joshua's interview on our YouTube channel.

McCall's Pumpkin Patch in Moriarty, has been a New Mexico staple around Halloween for years, but this year, the folks at McCall's found themselves caught up in something far spookier and more serious than the jump scares in their Hunted House.

An online rumor claimed Immigration Enforcement agents would be at McCall's, sparking confusion, concern and controversy.

Our reporter Cailley Chella, looked into where that rumor started.

What's fact, what's fiction, and how a Halloween tradition became tangled in politics.

>>McCall's Employee: Come on in folks!

>>McCall's Visitor: I don't want to.

>>Cailley: Halloween is all about tricks and treats, but this year, McCall's Farms was at the center of an extra spooky rumor.

[Screaming] >>McCall: Yeah, it's just unfortunate that the misinformation got to where it was.

>>Cailley: The rumor that spread was that ICE agents would be present at this year's Halloween festivities at the farm.

When I first looked into this story, I thought I'd be doing an explainer on misinformation and how and why it happens.

But after doing more research, I realized that there were some pieces of this rumor that came from officials that played a huge part.

Earlier this month, the Albuquerque Teachers Federation sent out an internal email titled, McCall's Prison Patch, where the Union's President called out McCall's politics and voting record, writing that every fall, some APS Educators plan field trips to McCall's and that the owner, Kevin McCall, is a county commissioner who supports the Torrance County Detention Facility, which holds people detained by ICE.

She adds that various human rights violations have occurred at the facility, and says McCall cares more about the money it's making.

>>Mcall: The body of the email is truthful in my voting record.

And at the very end it said, “beware of rotten pumpkins.” And I just shared it with my County Administration and said, you know, I wanted to make you all aware of this.

And, at which case, the Chairman of the Commission read it and it outraged him.

>>Cailley: Shortly after the Torrance County Commission put out an official meeting agenda, with one item mentioning McCall's Pumpkin Patch and the ICE Intergovernmental Agreement.

>>Mcall: So he wanted to put it on the agenda to discuss the fact that we, as commissioners, are being, you know, attacked, if you will, a little bit or what we do at the county level was burning over into -- not burning over -- what we were doing at the county level is playing into to our personal businesses.

>>Cailley: The vague language of item caused concern online, and the rumor that ICE would be present at McCall's Farm spread like wildfire.

>>Mcall: Well, I don't support ICE.

I do support Torrance County and the Detention Facility at Torrance County.

>>Cailley: I'm here at the Pumpkin Patch and I can confirm I have not seen any identifiable ICE officers or anyone being detained.

Regardless that kernel of truth that McCall's has voted to maintain a relationship with Ice in the Torrance County Detention Centers is enough to keep some people away.

>>Rodriguez: I think people have all the right to be on edge at this moment.

We're witnessing, throughout the country, ICE raids, and a militarized immigration enforcement that we have never seen before.

We're witnessing people getting hurt, getting teargassed, and getting, even, killed by federal agents.

And so people are watching the news.

People are seeing all of these videos and are alert.

And so when someone has been so outspoken to supporting part of that -- deportation machine that's creating all this violence that we're witnessing.

It's very easy to make the connections.

I am an immigrant.

And so I can simply see, what he stands for through his votes and make an assumption of maybe I'm not going to be the most safe at his farm.

>>Cailley: Much like the original message of the Teachers Union email, Rodriguez says it's important to know where you shop.

>>Rodriguiz: McCall's should be held accountable for the votes that he has taken, that has led to the terrible condiditions that immigrants are experiencing.

You know, there's other pumpkin farms that that you can have a similar experience and enjoy your Halloween.

And you know that there's not someone running the show that, On the on the other parts of their days are voting to keep the immigrants detained.

>>Cailley: He says what's even more important than the cause of online rumors and misinformation is the transparency and accountability of officials.

>>Rodriguez: People in positions of power, whether its a business like the Pumpkin Patch Farm or an elected official in charge of a county, or a city or a state.

I think you have the duty to provide safety, and clarity for every person that lives, for every community member that is part of whatever it is you're in charge of.

>>Cailley: He says some places are safer than others, in that, some areas have taken steps to make their immigrant neighbors feel more at ease.

>>Rodriguez: The city of Albuquerque and the county of Bernalillo, where I live, both governments have been very outspoken.

That is happening, not because we're seeing those kinds of raids at the moment in Albuquerque.

It's not because ICE is part of the Bernalillo County Building.

It's happening because they see the importance in being very explicit and being deliberate about where their stance is, and that they're going to protect the immigrants and not gonna become part of the the deportation machine.

>>Cailley: Albuquerque has a 20 year long history of protections even recently reaffirming immigrant friendly policies back in July.

And right now, Bernalillo County is working on additional protections.

>>Crowd: Immigrant Friendly, BernCo Strong!

>>Cailley: If you do live in a place that has less protections or less transparency, Rodriguez says, there are still things that you can do to make life a little less spooky.

>>Rodriguez: It's important for everyone that disagrees with what's going on to join Immigrant Justice Organizations to advocate for the safety and protections of immigrants.

>>Cailley: He also says, it's important to know your rights.

For New Mexico in Focus, I'm Cailley Chella reporting.

>>Nash: Thanks to Cailley and everyone else who contributed to the show.

Join us next week as we recap Tuesday's Election results for New Mexico PBS, I'm Nash Jones.

Until then, stay focused, and vote!

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