FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, INSIGHT ON A NEW ENVIRONMENTAL CRIME TASK FORCE, AIMING TO PROTECT NOT ONLY THE HEALTH OF OUR ENVIRONMENT BUT ALSO OUR PEOPLE.

>> Kenney: IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD.

LIKE THE MOST VULNERABLE SHOULD NOT BE THE MOST POLLUTED.

>> Gene: AND THE DECISION AHEAD FOR THE GOVERNOR AS SHE GETS READY TO CHOOSE OUR NEW PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSIONERS.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST GENE GRANT.

A NEW POLL SHOWING PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR CHANGES TO THE WAY OUR LEGISLATURE FUNCTIONS.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW I SIT DOWN WITH MARIO JIMENEZ FROM COMMON CAUSE NEW MEXICO TO ASK HOW EXTENDING THE LENGTH OF SESSIONS AND PAYING LAWMAKERS COULD MODERNIZE HOW OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS GOVERN.

CITY COUNCILORS IN ALBUQUERQUE ARE CONSIDERING A CHANGE TO THE CITY'S ZERO FAIR PROGRAM, THAT WOULD REQUIRE PHOTO ID AS THE ONLY WAY TO RIDE FOR FREE.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOUR I'LL ASK OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS IF THAT CONTRADICTS THE GOAL OF THE PROGRAM.

AND IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES THE PANEL AND I DEBATE THE STATE'S DECISION TO REQUIRE THOUSANDS OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES TO RETURN TO THE OFFICE IN JANUARY.

BUT, WE START WITH NOMINATIONS FOR THE PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSION AS THE GOVERNOR WEIGHS HER OPTIONS.

LET'S GET TO THE LINE.

WELCOME TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK.

JOINING US AT THE VIRTUAL ROUND TABLE, TOM GARRITY OF THE GARRITY GROUP PUBLIC RELATIONS.

WELCOMING ALGERNON D'AMMASSA EDITOR AT THE DEMING HEADLIGHT AND ALWAYS GLAD TO HAVE INEZ RUSSELL GOMEZ, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR AT THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN.

NOW THE PRC NOMINATING COMMITTEE SENT NINE NAMES TO THE GOVERNOR FOR CONSIDERATION FOR THE NEW THREE-PERSON PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSION.

OF THE NINE NOMINATED, SEVEN LIVE IN NEW MEXICO.

FIVE ARE DEMOCRAT, THREE ARE DECLINE TO STATE AND ONE IS A REPUBLICAN.

ALL NINE HAVE ENERGY WORK EXPERIENCE.

NOW WE WON'T GET INTO THE NAMES OF ALL NINE NOMINEES AND KIND OF PARSE THAT OUT, BUT BROADLY FIRST, TOM, IS THIS PROCESS, THE PROCESS OTHER THAN THE NAME, SHAPING UP THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED WHEN WE THINK BACK TO HOW THE VOTE WENT DOWN, WHAT FOLKS WERE EXPENDING.

>> Tom: WELL, THERE IS, I THINK, WHAT WAS INTENDED AND WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED.

AND, YOU KNOW, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT WAS INTENDED BUT I THINK THE PROCESS THAT REPRESENTATIVE EGOLF WAS ABLE TO FACILITATE, I THINK, HAS BROUGHT ABOUT 15 VERY STRONG CANDIDATES, NOW, NINE VERY STRONG CANDIDATES SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, I THINK THAT PROCESS WORKED TO REALLY DEVELOP, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEIR WHEREWITHAL WITH RESPECT TO ENERGY ISSUES, ENVIRONMENT, AND ALL THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE INDUSTRY.

AND, I THINK WHO HAVE SOME GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF NEW MEXICO.

NOT THE ENTIRE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, I THINK AS THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP BY MANY, BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE INITIAL PROCESS HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

>> Gene: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, JUST REAL QUICK, HOW DO WE KNOW, OR IN YOUR OPINION, THAT THEY ARE STRONG CANDIDATES MEANING WAS THERE A LIST OF ATTRIBUTES WE WERE LOOKING FOR FOR ALL THESE NOMINEES THAT CHECKLIST BASICALLY THAT HAS BEEN CHECKED OFF.

>> Tom: NO, THAT IS THE THING.

THERE WEREN'T ANY NECESSARILY JOB QUALIFICATIONS.

THERE WERE INTENTIONS AS FAR AS -- AND THERE WAS AN ACTUAL DOCUMENT, I BELIEVE, THAT ACTUALLY LISTED THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT NEEDED TO BE INCLUDED BUT FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW, THERE IS -- SOMETIMES IN DIFFERENT PROCESSES, YOU HAVE WHAT IS LISTED AND THEN THERE IS WHAT IS WANTED AND I THINK THAT THIS PROCESS CHECKED THE BOX OF WHAT WAS LISTED AND THEN BROUGHT ABOUT THE CANDIDATES THAT WERE WANTED.

>> Gene: INEZ, I HAVE GOT AN INTERESTING QUESTION HERE.

ONE NOTABLE NAME LEFT OFF THE FINAL LIST OF THE FINAL LIST OF NINE NOMINEES WAS PRC WAS CURRENT PRC COMMISSIONER CYNTHIA HALL.

SORRY ABOUT THAT.

INTERVIEW WITH SOURCE NEW MEXICO MS. HALL SAID HER EXPERIENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN VALUABLE.

YOUR COLUMNIST AT YOUR NEWSPAPER MILEY SIMONICH HAD A GREAT COLUMN THIS WEEK ABOUT THIS VERY ISSUE.

WAS THE IDEA TO JUST HAVE A CLEAN START NO MATTER WHO WAS ON THE PRC BEFOREHAND OR ARE WE MISSING SOMETHING WHEN IT COMES TO INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE AND AN INDEPENDENT THINKER AS MS. HALL PROVED HERSELF TO BE.

>> Inez: THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT.

I DO THINK THEY WANTED A CLEAN START BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS THE CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT WAS PRESENTED TO BEGIN WITH WHICH WAS TO MOVE FROM ELECTED TO APPOINTED IS THE IDEA THAT BY JOINING THE VAST MAJORITY OF STATES, WHICH ALSO APPOINT THE REGULATORY COMMISSION, WE WOULD LEAVE SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN KIND OF MESSY AND CONTROVERSIAL BEHIND.

AND EVEN THOUGH I THINK THE CURRENT PRC HAS DONE A GOOD JOB IN TERMS OF BEING SCANDAL FREE, WORKING HARD, YOU KNOW, A REALLY DILIGENT BODY, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE DAYS OF THE CORPORATION COMMISSION, IF YOU GO THROUGH THE PRC, EVERY THREE YEARS THERE IS A NEW EXPLOSION OF EMBARRASSMENT.

AND I THINK THEY DID WANT TO MAYBE START OVER AND WHO KNOWS IN THE INTERVIEWS WHAT THEY FOUND IN SOMEONE'S QUALIFICATIONS THAT MADE THEM THINK, WELL, THIS PERSON IS GOING TO BE BETTER.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY CYNTHIA HALL IS EMINENTLY QUALIFIED TO BE ON THE PRC AND WHY THEY DIDN'T INCLUDE HER ALONG THE WAY, WE COULD ONLY KNOW IF WE COULD GET INSIDE THE BRAINS OF THE PEOPLE DOING INTERVIEWS.

>> YOUR COLUMNIST, SURMISED IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE OF HER TOUGH VOTES ON PNM AND OTHER THINGS THAT MIGHT HAVE BECOME POLITICAL WITHOUT HER -- >> Inez: APART FROM POLITICAL, ONE OF THINGS WE HAD AN INTERESTING ITEM TODAY IN THE PAPER BY SOMEONE NAMED GLENN LYONS WHO WAS ALSO AN APPLICANT AND DIDN'T MAKE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE FINALISTS AND HE SAID THIS IS A GREAT GROUP OF PEOPLE, I THINK YOU GUYS HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB.

EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT ONE OF THEM, I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE GREAT.

AND HE SAID, WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM PNM AND OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE REGULATED, AND ALSO FROM CONSUMERS, IS THAT YOU NEED A PRC THAT IS PREDICTABLE.

WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES, IT IS ALMOST NOT AS IMPORTANT WHETHER THEY ARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, YOU HAVE TO KNOW IF THEY PROMISE FACEBOOK THEY ARE GOING TO DO "X" AND THAT THEY DON'T CHANGE THEIR MIND AND SAY, NO, WE ARE GOING TO DO "Y" NOW.

IT IS NOT JUST -- SOUNDS GREAT, WE TOOK A TOUGH VOTE.

WELL, YOU TOOK A TOUGH VOTE AND THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND A YEAR LATER AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

AND I THINK THEY NEED A PREDICTABLE PRC THAT YOU DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO BUT THEY MAKE SENSE.

>> Gene: ALGERNON ANOTHER INTERESTING THING IN HERE IS NATIVE REPRESENTATION BEEN A CONCERN FROM THE START OF THIS PROCESS.

RON LOVATO FORMER TWO-TERM GOVERNOR OF OHKAY OWEIGEH AND MEMBER OF THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE AND ONE OF THE NINE NOMINEES IS JOSEPH LITTLE, ATTORNEY FROM MESCALERO APACHE TRIBE.

HE HAS GOT EXPERIENCE IN WATER RIGHTS AND TRIBAL GOVERNMENTS, OF COURSE.

YOU KNOW, IS MR. LITTLE'S PERSPECTIVE NECESSARY ON THE PRC OR IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE HIM OR HER, JUST SOME KIND OF NATIVE PERSPECTIVE ON THE PRC, IS THAT A NECESSARY THING WE HAVE TO HAVE AT THIS POINT?

>> Algernon: WITHOUT QUESTION MR. LITTLE HAS PERSPECTIVE THAT IS OF VALUE.

ANOTHER THING HERE IS WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT PUBLIC TRUST IN THE BODY AND YOU KNOW WITH THIS CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE, WE ARE NOT TAKING THE POLITICS OUT OF THE PROCESS.

WE ARE JUST SHIFTING THE WAY THE POLITICS WORK WHEN WE HAVE AN APPOINTED BODY RATHER THAN AN ELECTED BODY.

WHEN YOU HAVE PRC MEMBERS RUNNING CAMPAIGNS, CERTAIN ISSUES DOMINANT AND CERTAIN ISSUES GET NEGLECTED.

THE PRC HAS A BROAD PORTFOLIO.

THEY DON'T JUST REGULATE UTILITY COMPANIES.

THEY HAVE A BROAD PORTFOLIO OF SERVICES AND THINGS THEY REGULATE.

SO, BY MAKING IT AN APPOINTED BODY, YOU'RE SHIFTING THE WAY THE POLITICS WORK BUT WE GET NOT ONLY INTO THE NECESSITY OF NATIVE AMERICAN REPRESENTATION BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO -- I THINK PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME SOMETIMES ASSUME THAT THERE IS A NATIVE AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE.

BUT WE HAVE, WHAT IS IT, 23 NATIONS AND PUEBLOS IN THIS STATE.

AND THEY DON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME VIEWS AND SAME OPINIONS.

SO, NOW WE START TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHICH TRIBE, WHICH PUEBLO, WHICH NATION NEEDS TO BE REPRESENTED ON THE BODY.

AND, SO, YOU'RE JUST CHANGING THE WAY THE POLITICS WORK, YOU'RE NOT TAKING POLITICS OUT OF THE PROCESS.

>> Gene: FAIR POINT.

ESPECIALLY TO ALGERNON'S POINT WE ONLY HAVE THREE.

YOU CAN'T REALLY SPREAD THE SORT OF GEOGRAPHY AND ALL THE BACKGROUND AMONG JUST THREE INSTEAD OF FIVE.

TOM, THERE IS A CONTROVERSY -- GOT TO GET INTO THIS -- WITH OUTGOING HOUSE SPEAKER EGOLF'S INVOLVEMENT IN THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE.

LATE LAST WEEK, THE ETHICS COMMISSION FOUND EGOLF WAS IN VIOLATION OF THE STATE LAW AND STATE CONSTITUTION WHEN HE NOMINATED HIMSELF FOR THE COMMITTEE.

DOES THAT FINDING CALL INTO THE LEGITIMACY OF THE PROCESS INTO QUESTION HERE.

>> Tom: I DON'T THINK -- I MEAN IF THE PROCESS WAS FLAWED THEN I THINK THAT WE WOULD HAVE REASON TO JUMP IN AND CRITICIZE THE PROCESS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, REPRESENTATIVE EGOLF, THE REASON I AM SAYING REPRESENTATIVE AS OPPOSED TO SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, IS BECAUSE HE IS IN THIS ROLE AS REPRESENTATIVE.

HE WAS THE ONE WHO REALLY RAN THE PROCESS AND IT WAS BY PEOPLE WHO WATCHED, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SAID THAT HE DID A VERY GOOD JOB.

SO, FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WAS NO PROBLEM WITH WHAT HE DID IN HIS ROLE.

WHAT COMES INTO ISSUE IS WITH THE GOVERNMENTAL CONDUCT ACT AND JUST THE ETHICS IN IT WHICH IS WHY THE REPRESENTATIVE MIGUEL GARCIA WAS REALLY UPSET OVER REPRESENTATIVE EGOLF APPOINTING HIMSELF TO THAT PARTICULAR BOARD.

AND I THINK HE WAS EQUALLY AS UPSET WITH THE ETHICS COMMISSION FOR JUST REACHING AN AGREEMENT WITH THE REPRESENTATIVE EGOLF AS OPPOSED TO DOING A FULL INVESTIGATION.

AND I THINK THE ETHICS TEAM DID THE RIGHT THING AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, HEY, LET'S WORK THIS OUT.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS A NEED FOR A HUGE INVESTIGATION.

PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THIS PROCESS ON A REGULAR BASIS KIND OF SCRATCHED THEIR HEADS WHEN WE ALL SAW THE APPOINTMENT BUT WE ALL KIND OF KNEW AT THAT POINT THAT HE ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED HE WASN'T GOING TO BE RUNNING AGAIN.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST AN UNFORTUNATE SUBTITLE TO THIS WHOLE KIND OF NARRATIVE, SO TO SPEAK.

>> Gene: LET ME ASK YOU THIS ABOUT EGOLF.

HE RESIGNED FROM THE NOMINATING PANEL PRETTY SOON AFTER VOTING ON THE FINALISTS.

SOMETHING ABOUT THAT DOESN'T SIT, YOU KNOW.

DON'T FORGET THAT SAME DAY THE LAWYER FROM STATE ETHICS COMMISSION FINALLY MADE THAT PRELIMINARY DECISION ON THE SITUATION TOM JUST MENTIONED FROM MR. GARCIA.

WE HAVE THAT FROM THE COMMISSION AND WE'LL PUT THAT UP ON THE WEBSITE LATER TODAY.

BUT, INEZ, I HAVE TO ASK AGAIN, DID MR. EGOLF TAKE THE RIGHT APPROACH HERE AND WERE WE SERVED BY THIS APPROACH?

>> Inez: I THINK THAT IN MOST CASES IT IS PROBABLY BEST NOT TO APPOINT YOURSELF BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEONE WHO KNOWS AS MUCH AS HE KNOWS ABOUT EVERYTHING MIGHT THINK, WELL, I AM JUST THE BEST GUY TO DO IT SO I AM LEAVING, SO WHY NOT.

HE RESIGNED AFTER THE FINALISTS WERE CHOSEN BECAUSE THE FINALISTS ARE CHOSEN.

HIS WORK IS DONE.

IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMEBODY ELSE HE WOULD HAVE PICKED AND WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

>> Gene: ALGERNON, JUST A QUICK SECOND HERE, DOESN'T IT MAKE THIS SEEM IT IS POLITICAL, A POLITICAL PERSON NOMINATING HIMSELF AND RESIGNING ON HIS OWN AS WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IT JUST DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A POLITICAL PROBLEM HERE.

>> Algernon: EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, THAT IS WHY WE HAVE THE CONDUCT ACT, RIGHT.

HOPEFULLY NOW WE HAVE THIS INDEPENDENT BODY, THE STATE ETHICS COMMISSION, THAT CAN STEP IN AND SAY, THIS IS ABOUT WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

NOT ABOUT THE POLITICS.

BUT, THE TIMING OF IT WAS SUCH THAT REPRESENTATIVE EGOLF WAS ABLE TO SAY, OKAY, OUR WORK IS DONE ANYWAY AND LEAVE WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS.

>> Gene: VERY SANTA FE, AS THEY SAY.

THANKS TO OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

WE'LL MEET BACK HERE IN A LITTLE OVER 10 MINUTES TO TALK TO THE STATE'S PLAN TO BRING THOUSANDS OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES BACK TO THE OFFICE TO START 2023.

>> Jimenez: BY EXTENDING OUR SESSIONS, NOT ONLY DO WE PROVIDE MORE TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE INVOLVED IN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION, BUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO ANOTHER IMPORTANT COMPONENT IS GIVING OUR LEGISLATORS AND THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF TIME TO PROPERLY RESEARCH THE LEGISLATION THAT IS BEFORE THEM.

>> Gene: THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO AND U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY LAUNCHED A NEW TASKFORCE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES IN THE STATE.

THAT CAN CHANGE RANGE FROM RECORDS.

THESE ACTS POLLUTE THE STATE'S AIR AND WATER AND PUT PEOPLE'S HEALTH AT RISK.

THEY ARE PUNISHABLE BY FINES AND EVEN JAIL TIME, BUT TOO OFTEN THEY GO UNDETECTED OR UN-PROSECUTED.

THE NEW TASKFORCE HAS ITS WORK CUT OUT FOR IT.

OUR LAND, LAURA PASKUS, TALKS THIS WITH WEEK WITH NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT SECRETARY JAMES KENNEY AND THE EPA SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE OF THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION UNIT, KIM BAHNEY.

>> SECRETARY KENNEY, KIM BAHNEY, THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Sec.

Kenney: THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THE ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES TASKFORCE.

THIS IS SOMETHING NEW FOR NEW MEXICO?

WHY DO WE NEED THIS?

>> Sec.

Kenney: GREAT TO BE HERE, LAURA, AND GOOD QUESTION.

ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES TASKFORCE FILLS A BIG VOID IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

HISTORICALLY MOST STATES' ENVIRONMENTAL AGENCIES WORK WITH FEDERAL PARTNERS TO PROSECUTE CIVIL AND CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS.

THOSE THAT MAY BE, FOR THE VIEWERS, ARE UNINTENTIONAL AND THOSE THAT ARE INTENTIONAL.

WITH THE LACK OF HAVING A TASKFORCE HERE FOR SO MANY YEARS, WE HAVE NO BAROMETER AS TO WHETHER THERE ARE CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES OCCURRING THAT WOULD BE HURTING THE ENVIRONMENT OR HURTING PUBLIC HEALTH, OPERATING OUTSIDE OF THE REGULATORY SCHEME.

THE TASKFORCE WILL FILL THAT VOID AND SHARE INTELLIGENCE AND THEN MOVE TOWARDS PROSECUTING THOSE INDIVIDUALS OR CORPORATIONS THAT ARE CRIMINALLY VIOLATING ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS.

>> Laura: DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT, LIKE A CIVIL VERSUS A CRIMINAL VIOLATION.

IS THIS JUST LIKE A CRIME VERSUS AN ACCIDENT?

LIKE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> Sec.

Kenney: I WOULDN'T THINK OF IT AS A CRIME VERSUS AN ACCIDENT BECAUSE SOMETIMES WHEN AN EMPLOYER DOESN'T PUT THE NECESSARY RESOURCES BEHIND COMPLIANCE, YOU CAN HAVE AN ACCIDENT.

AND THAT COULD BE AN INTENTIONAL MEANS TO EITHER MAKE MONEY OR AVOID THE REGULATORY SCHEME.

SO I WOULD THINK OF IT A LITTLE BIT MORE, AND THIS IS JUST A GENERAL RULE OF THUMB, THAT WHEN A COMPANY OR PERSON INADVERTENTLY VIOLATES THE LAW, THEY MAY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE BEST INTENTION BUT THEY DON'T EXECUTE IT PROPERLY.

THAT IS OFTEN A CIVIL VIOLATION.

MAYBE THEY FORGOT TO SUBMIT A PIECE OF PAPER THAT IS IMPORTANT TO THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT ASSURING COMPLIANCE.

OR THEY FORGOT TO DO SOME OTHER ACTIVITY.

A CRIMINAL VIOLATION, USUALLY THERE IS INTENT.

THERE IS INTENT TO CIRCUMVENT, DEFRAUD, AVOID, AND NOT PLAY BY THE RULES.

AND THEREFORE A CRIMINAL VIOLATION, IN MY OPINION, HAS A MORE EGREGIOUS, WHICH IS WHY THERE IS TYPICALLY NOT ONLY PENALTIES BUT SOMETIMES JAIL TIME INVOLVED.

>> Laura: KIM, CAN YOU GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF EITHER CASES YOU WORKED ON OR INCIDENTS THAT YOU HAVE SEEN IN THE REGION THAT MAYBE COULD HAPPEN IN NEW MEXICO AS WELL?

>> Bahney: CERTAINLY.

I THINK THE ONE THING THAT MOST ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT THERE IS A DELIBERATE DECISION USUALLY TO SAVE MONEY OR TO MAKE MONEY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT OR HUMAN HEALTH.

SO, RELEASE OF CHEMICALS OR HAZARDOUS POLLUTANTS IN THE AIR.

PERHAPS AN INDUSTRY IS FALSIFYING AIR EMISSIONS.

OR IT CAN BE ANYTHING FROM ILLEGAL IMPORTATION OF REFRIGERANTS AND PESTICIDES.

WE ARE SEEING QUITE A BIT OF THAT.

YOU WOULD KNOW USUALLY BY THE LABEL WOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN EPA VERBIAGE ON PESTICIDE PRODUCTS.

SITUATIONS WHERE THERE ARE FIRES OR EXPLOSIONS BECAUSE OF MISMANAGEMENT OF CHEMICALS.

DUMPING INTO WATERS, EITHER STATE OR FEDERAL WATERS OR SEWER SYSTEMS THAT WOULD ALSO CAUSE HARM TO WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANTS.

AND FALSIFICATION AT WASTEWATER TREATMENT PLANTS, DRINKING WATER PLANTS, SO, THOSE ARE SOME NUMBER OF THINGS THAT COME TO MIND.

>> Laura: ENVIRONMENTAL IS ALREADY A CHALLENGE IN NEW MEXICO AND THINKING, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MANY OIL AND GAS WELLS THERE ARE VERSUS HOW MANY INSPECTORS THERE ARE.

HOW IS THIS TASKFORCE GOING TO MEET THE CHALLENGES THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE REALLY BIG?

>> Sec.

Kenney: A GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE THERE IS A BIT OF A DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH KIND OF FEEL FROM A REGULATORY STANDPOINT VERSUS SOME BAD ACTORS.

LIKE HOW DO YOU FIND THOSE?

AND, PART OF THE REASON AN ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES TASKFORCE WORKS SO WELL IS BECAUSE YOU LEVERAGE STATE AND FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AS WELL AS TRIBAL AGENCIES TO COME TOGETHER BOTH ON THE INVESTIGATION, BUILDING THE CASE, THEN WORKING WITH PROSECUTORS TO ENFORCE AGAINST THAT ENTITY.

SO THE SHARING OF INFORMATION ACTUALLY IS SYNERGISTIC AND ALLOWS YOU TO EXPAND YOUR RESOURCE BASE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WHERE NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT MAY HAVE A HAZARDOUS WASTE INSPECTOR OUT IN THE FIELD LOOKING AT A FACILITY WHO IS MANAGING HAZARDOUS WASTE, IF THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT MAYBE ISN'T WITHIN THEIR JURISDICTION OR JUST DOESN'T APPEAR PROPER, THEY WILL BRING THAT INFORMATION BACK AND ELEVATE IT BACK TO THE TASKFORCE SO THERE IS MORE EYES AND EARS OUT THERE.

AND MORE SHARING OF INFORMATION AND THAT DOES HELP LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD BETWEEN THE REGULATED COMMUNITY AND THE REGULATORS.

>> Laura: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT.

THE TASKFORCE ALSO HAS AN INTEREST IN ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE, IS THAT RIGHT?

WHAT IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE COMPONENT HERE?

>> Sec.

Kenney: I CAN SPEAK TO THIS NOT ONLY AS A CABINET SECRETARY BUT ALSO FROM MY EXPERIENCE WHEN I WAS WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.

OFTENTIMES WHEN YOU'RE GOING INTO COMMUNITIES TO INVESTIGATE ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES YOU'RE GOING INTO THOSE THAT ARE SOCIOECONOMICALLY CHALLENGED BECAUSE YOU'LL SEE -- THERE IS A TERM FENCE LINE COMMUNITIES AND THOSE RESIDENTS THAT ARE CLOSEST TO THE INDUSTRIAL ACTIVITY ARE OFTEN THE ONES THE MOST IMPACTED.

SO THERE IS VERY MUCH INEQUITY WHEN THESE CRIMES OCCUR IN THOSE COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT -- THEY ARE ALREADY SOCIALLY ECONOMICALLY DEPRESSED AND THAT IS WHERE THE TASKFORCE WILL SPEND SOME TIME LOOKING AT THAT.

IT IS AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD LIKE THE MOST VULNERABLE SHOULD NOT BE THE MOST POLLUTED.

>> Laura: SO I REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT LAWYERS BUT I HAVE ALWAYS WONDERED LIKE WHY A COMPANY, YOU KNOW, IF IT IS PROFIT DRIVEN, CAN COME IN AND CONTAMINATE GROUNDWATER THAT MIGHT HAVE IMPACTS ON PEOPLE FOR GENERATIONS OR CAN SAY, CAN CONTAMINATE GROUNDWATER TO THE POINT WHERE ENTIRE BUSINESSES OR INDUSTRY IS SCARRED OR DECIMATED.

WHY IS IT THAT ENVIRONMENTAL CRIMES AND THINGS LIKE THAT AREN'T OFTEN TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY IN OUR SOCIETY AS EVEN SOMETHING LIKE PROPERTY THEFT AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL?

>> Sec.

Kenney: IT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

THAT IS WHY I AM IN MY JOB TO ENSURE THERE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AND YOU PREVENT THOSE, RIGHT.

I DON'T THINK IT IS SUCCESS WHEN WE ARE PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO CLEAN-UP.

I THINK IT IS ADMITTING FAILURE.

AND WE SHOULD BE WORKING TO PREVENT THOSE TYPES OF SITUATIONS FROM HAPPENING.

THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT THROUGH MOST OF ITS PROGRAMS HAS THE ABILITY TO DENY PERMITS TO BAD ACTORS.

WE ARE LOOKING INTO THAT MORE AND UTILIZING THOSE PROVISIONS IN WAYS WE HAVEN'T IN THE PAST.

THAT IS A PHILOSOPHY OF NEW MEXICO SHOULD BE RACING TO THE TOP NOT ATTRACTING THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, BUT I THINK THAT IS WHY YOU NEED ENFORCEMENT PROGRAMS.

THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO BE OUT THERE AND ENSURING THAT COMPLIANCE IS OCCURRING DAY-TO-DAY, WEEK-TO-WEEK, MONTH-TO-MONTH.

AND WHEN YOU'RE NOT OUT THERE CHECKING, THAT IS WHEN SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS THAT CAN HAPPEN OR THAT OCCUR CAN REALLY LEAVE LONG LASTING IMPACTS ON OUR ENVIRONMENT AS YOU ARE POINTING OUT.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION DIRECTLY BUT BRINGING MORE RESOURCES TO THE INVESTIGATION SIDE THAT WILL HOPEFULLY PREVENT BAD ACTORS FROM BECOMING WORSE ACTORS POLLUTING MORE GROUNDWATER OUR LAND AND OUR AIR IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS TASKFORCE WILL BE DESIGNED TO DO.

>> Laura: SO IF PEOPLE SEE SOMETHING, HOW DO THEY ALERT THE TASKFORCE?

>> Bahney: SO, EPA HAS A TIP LINE.

THE DATA BASE THAT THEY WOULD ENTER IT INTO IS CALLED ECHO.

IF YOU GOOGLE EPA ENVIRONMENTAL COMPLAINT, IT SHOULD COME UP.

THAT IS SENT TO THE HEADQUARTERS AND GOES TO THE APPROPRIATE OFFICE NATIONWIDE AND THEN THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING ULTIMATELY -- EVEN IF WE ARE DECIDING THAT EPA IS MORE IN THE LEAD, WE ARE TYPICALLY COORDINATING WITH NEW MEXICO ED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE NOT ALREADY ON IT, ONE, AND, TWO, THEY USUALLY HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE REGULATORY HISTORY THERE AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST WHICH ALWAYS FUNNELS INTO OUR CASE MOVING FORWARD.

>> Sec.

Kenney: SIMILAR, NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT HAS A TIP LINE.

YOU CAN SUBMIT IT EITHER BY PHONE OR BY WEB IN ENGLISH OR SPANISH.

>> Laura: THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

>> Gene: THANK YOU LAURA FOR THAT INTERVIEW.

YOU CAN WATCH HER ENTIRE DISCUSSION ONLINE ON THE OUR LAND YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW LET'S BRING BACK THE LINE OPINION PANELISTS BACK TO VIRTUAL ROUNDTABLE.

THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO IS RESCINDING ITS WORK FROM HOME POLICY.

CALLING FOR MORE THAN 8,000 OF ITS EMPLOYEES TO RETURN TO WORK IN EARLY JANUARY.

THAT AS WE APPROACH THE HOLIDAY SEASON AND CDC WARNS OF A POSSIBLE TRIPLE DEMIC WITH THREAT OF FLU, RSV AND COVID ALL GROWING.

STATE EMPLOYEES WERE NOTIFIED ABOUT THIS POLICY CHANGE AT THE START OF DECEMBER.

TOM, IS IT A REASONABLE REQUEST TO HAVE A FULL RETURN TO THE OFFICE FOR ALL 22,000 EMPLOYEES AFTER, I'LL REMIND YOU, AFTER WE HAVE JUST GOTTEN THROUGH THE HOLIDAY BREAK, EVERYONE IS TRAVELING, EVERYONE IS GANGED UP TOGETHER.

SUDDENLY YOU HAVE 22,000 PEOPLE ALL INDOORS.

IS THIS A SMART IDEA?

>> Tom: THAT WILL BE UP TO THE GOVERNOR AND CABINET SECRETARIES.

THE NUMBER THAT HIT ME WAS THE 8,000 THAT ARE STILL IN THAT REALM OF DOING THAT REMOTE WORK AS OPPOSED TO 22,000 TOTAL STATE EMPLOYEES.

SO, THAT WAS -- THAT NUMBER IS LIKE, OKAY, IT IS NOT THE MAJORITY BUT IT IS DEFINITELY A GROUP THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE I THINK THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO IS RUNNING UP AGAINST THE SAME KIND OF ISSUE THAT MANY SMALL BUSINESSES AND EVEN LARGE BUSINESSES ARE FACING AS FAR AS THE CHANGING WORKPLACE AND CHANGING WORK ENVIRONMENT.

WHETHER IT IS -- IT IS NOT JUST RESERVED FOR FRONT LINE WORKERS IN RESTAURANTS BUT ALSO IN CALL CENTERS AND CORPORATIONS AND MANUFACTURERS.

EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO GRAPPLE WITH WHAT THIS NEW WORK DYNAMIC IS.

EVEN WITH MY OWN COMPANY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE MAINLY REMOTE WORKERS AND THEN WE'LL COME IN FROM TIME TO TIME, MEET AT THE OFFICE TO HASH THROUGH SOME DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, WITH, I THINK, 18 MILLION-DOLLARS WORTH OF LEASED SPACE, MOST OF IT IS IN SANTA FE, YOU KNOW, THAT COMES INTO THE MANAGEMENT ASPECT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, IS THE STATE BEING A GOOD STEWARD OF THE RESOURCES THAT IT MANAGES AND I THINK BRINGING EMPLOYEES BACK, YOU KNOW, I THINK IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE STRONGLY CONSIDERED IF THAT IS THE WORK MODEL OF SHOWING THAT YOU ARE AN EFFICIENT -- THAT YOU ARE USING STATE RESOURCES EFFICIENTLY THEN, YES, THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO BRING THEM BACK.

>> Gene: I WANT TO MAKE SURE I AM CLEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SATISFYING A NEED TO PAY FOR SOMETHING THAT ALREADY HAS BEEN PAID FOR VERSUS FOLKS HEALTH.

WHY SHOULD THE 18 MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF STATE BUILDINGS NOT BEING USED EVEN BE IN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HEALTH?

>> Tom: WELL, BECAUSE IT WAS ACTUALLY -- I WAS EXPLAINING IT MORE AS A WORKFORCE WORKPLACE ISSUE AS OPPOSED TO A HEALTH ISSUE.

FROM THE HEALTH ISSUE YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, THAT THE ENVIRONMENTS, YOU KNOW, CAN HANDLE WHICH HAVE BEEN UPGRADED SINCE COVID-19 AND ARE SAFE TO COME BACK.

THAT WAS THE BOTTOM LINE ASSUMPTION.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD WANT ANY WORKERS ANYWHERE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR GOVERNMENT OR PRIVATE SECTOR, GOING INTO AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS NOT SAFE.

THAT WOULD NEVER BE, IF THAT WAS THE WAY THIS CAME ACROSS THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE CASE.

I AM JUST SAYING THERE IS A NEW WORKFORCE DYNAMIC OUT THERE THAT WAS CREATED AS A RESULT OF THE COVID PANDEMIC AND CLEARLY WE ARE NOT NECESSARILY THROUGH THAT.

WE WERE THROUGH AN ASPECT OF IT BUT NOW THERE HAS BEEN A RESURGENCE.

SO, A LOT IS UP IN THE AIR.

I AM JUST SAYING THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESOURCES THE STATE HAS, YOU KNOW, REALLY, YOU KNOW, IT IS QUITE A CONUNDRUM FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

BUT THEY ARE NOT ALONE.

THERE ARE PRIVATE BUSINESSES IN THE SAME POSITION AS WELL.

>> Gene: SHOULD THE STATE HAVE SPOKEN WITH UNION LEADERS BEFORE ANNOUNCING THIS POLICY CHANGE?

SHOULD THEY MEET NOW?

IT SEEMS LIKE IT CAUGHT THE UNION COMPLETELY OFF GUARD EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS ANNOUNCED JUST A LITTLE BIT AGO.

SEEMS LIKE AN AWFULLY SHORT TURNED-AROUND.

CURIOUS YOUR SENSE OF THAT.

>> Inez: I THINK CONSULTATION IS ALWAYS A BETTER IDEA THAN SURPRISING PEOPLE.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT RETURNING TO WORK, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY FOR THE STATE, THE FOCUS HAS TO BE ON SERVING TAXPAYERS AND SPENDING THEIR MONEY WISELY.

AND IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO LOOK AND FIGURE OUT THE EXACT BEST WAY TO DO IT IN EVERY INSTANCE.

IT IS MUCH EASIER TO SAY, LET'S ALL GO BACK TO WORK.

BUT GOING THROUGH EACH TYPE OF JOB AND GETTING SUPERVISORS TO SAY THIS IS WHAT WOULD WORK WITH SOME PEOPLE IN AND SOME PEOPLE OUT IS HARD.

SO, SOMETIMES I THINK PEOPLE GET TIRED -- >> Gene: IS THAT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON NOT TO DO IT BECAUSE IT IS HARD?

>> Inez: I THINK THERE SHOULD BE CONSULTATION AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT LEARNING IN DECEMBER THAT YOU'RE GOING BACK TO WORK JANUARY 1, THINK ABOUT IF YOU'RE WORKING AT HOME AND YOUR KIDS COME HOME AFTER SCHOOL.

YOU HAVE TO GET CHILD CARE ALL OF A SUDDEN.

IF YOU'RE TAKING CARE OF AN ELDERLY PERSON WHILE YOU WORK.

THERE IS SO MANY WORK LIFE THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE WORKED OUT THAT I AM HOPING THAT THE STATE WILL ENTER INTO SOME SORT OF CONSULTATION AND PERHAPS DELAY IT AND AT THE SAME TIME START SETTING THEIR BUILDING NEEDS SO THEY COULD REDUCE THEIR PROFILE.

YOU DON'T NEED AS MANY OFFICES IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE OFFICE SHARES AND MAYBE THREE DAYS AT WORK, TWO DAYS AT HOME.

THERE IS A LOT OF WAYS TO DO THIS THAT WILL SERVE THE PUBLIC, SERVE THE WORKERS AND DELIVER THE RESULTS THAT PEOPLE NEED.

AND I WOULD, FIRST OF ALL, IF I WAS A WORKER, I WOULD SAY WHAT IS YOUR VENTILATION SITUATION AND IS THE AIR BEING CHANGED FREQUENTLY?

>> Gene: YES.

>> Inez: THAT WOULD BE MY FIRST QUESTION AND IF IT IS NOT, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY SHOULD HAVE TO RISK THEIR HEALTH TO BE AT A WORK.

IF I AM A RURAL REPRESENTATIVE AND LET'S SAY I AM CONSERVATIVE AND I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD BE BACK AT WORK.

ONE THING I WOULD THINK ABOUT IS THE MORE REMOTE WORK THAT YOU CAN DO THE MORE JOBS THERE ARE GOING TO BE IN PLACES LIKE TUCUMCARI OR JAL.

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO LIVE IN SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE.

SO LOOK AT THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND JOBS WITH THE STATE ALL OVER AND REALLY REVITALIZE RURAL ECONOMIES.

>> Gene: THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT.

I WOULD NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT.

I WANT TO REMIND FOLKS AS YOU'RE WATCHING THIS ON FRIDAY NIGHT, WE ARE TAPING THIS A COUPLE OF HOURS BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH HAS A BIG PRESS CONFERENCE AT 1:00 TODAY AS WE ARE DOING THIS ON THURSDAY.

AND I AM CURIOUS, ALGERNON, WHAT THEY COME UP WITH.

I DON'T THINK WE ARE GOING BACK TO A MASK MANDATE.

THAT IS NOT COMING CERTAINLY BUT I GOT TO WONDER IF POSSIBLY PHASING IN THE RETURN MIGHT BE THE BETTER WAY TO GO HERE INSTEAD OF DOING THIS DROP DEAD EVERYBODY WALKS IN THE DOOR AT A CERTAIN DAY, AT A CERTAIN TIME.

I GOT TO IMAGINE THOSE CONVERSATIONS HAVE TO BE HAPPENING.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THAT?

>> Algernon: THERE IS A CONVERSATION ALSO JUST ABOUT MESSAGES.

IT'S FAR FROM MASK MANDATES.

IT'S HARD TO HEAR THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT REALLY PROMOTE THE WISDOM OF MASK USE.

AND IF WE ARE GOING TO START PHASING PEOPLE AND HAVE YOU SAY, OKAY, WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO WORK, WELL, OKAY, NOT JUST VENTILATION, BUT CAN YOU ADJUST THE SPACE SO THAT YOU COULD SPACE PEOPLE APART.

WILL WE NORMALIZE MASKS AND THERE IS REALLY A SORT OF A CULTURAL AND ETHICAL CHOICE BEING MADE AND I HOPE WE CAN MAKE IT CONSCIOUSLY.

ARE WE GOING TO EMPHASIZE PRODUCTIVITY WHICH IS IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN GOVERNMENT WORK BECAUSE CUSTOMER SERVICE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND WISE USE OF PUBLIC FUNDS.

SURE.

BUT ARE WE ALSO GOING TO ADDRESS THE ETHOS OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND HOW TO LIVE AND WORK HEALTHFULLY AND IF WE FEEL THAT WE CANNOT ACCOMMODATE REMOTE WORK, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT THAT MEANS FOR PEOPLE IN TERMS OF DO I HAVE SOMEONE VULNERABLE AT MY HOME.

DO I HAVE OBLIGATIONS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS THAT I NOW HAVE TO MAKE OTHER ARRANGEMENTS FOR.

WHAT IS THE EXPENSE INVOLVED IN RESTORING MY COMMUTE.

ALL OF THAT, PLUS, DO I FEEL SAFE AND HEALTHY IN MY WORKPLACE AND DO I FEEL LIKE, IF I WEAR A MASK, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO CONSTANTLY DO APOLOGETICS AND EXPLAIN THIS OR WILL IT JUST BE ACCEPTED AS, YES, WE WEAR MASKS TO CURB THE SPREAD OF THESE VIRUSES.

>> Gene: TOM, THE UNIONS ARE SAYING WE COULD HAVE DROP LOSS FROM THIS.

SOME FOLKS MIGHT JUST QUIT BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES OUT THERE TO WORK AT HOME.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF PRIVATE EMPLOYEES WHO ARE NOT GOING TO FORCE YOU TO COME INTO A COMPROMISED SITUATION.

WE ARE ALREADY UNDERSTAFFED IN STATE GOVERNMENT AS IT IS.

IS THIS A LEGITIMATE PROBLEM HERE?

>> Tom: IT IS ONE OF THE MANY UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THAT NEEDS TO BE WEIGHED AS THE STATE LOOKS AT WHAT ITS NEXT STEPS ARE WITH REGARDS TO REMOTE WORK POLICY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I ALSO THINK THERE IS ANOTHER NUMBER HERE THAT JUMPED OUT AT ME WHICH REALLY JUST SHOWS HOW THIN THAT AVAILABLE WORKFORCE IS OR QUALIFIED AVAILABLE WORKFORCE.

61% OF NEW HIRES LASTED THEIR FIRST YEAR DURING THE 2022 BUDGET YEAR.

I MEAN, TO HAVE THAT KIND OF ATTRITION IS JUST, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY JOBS THAT 61% REPRESENTS BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN HR DEPARTMENT THAT IS JUST CHURNING THROUGH A LOT OF APPLICATIONS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE.

SO, I THINK THERE ARE LARGER ISSUES THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE AT PLAY BUT THAT LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF WE PHASE IT IN OR DO IT COLD TURKEY.

INEZ BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT ABOUT MAYBE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, HAVING THAT BE AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT INITIATIVE, BUT THAT RELIES ON THE BACKS OF THE TECHNOLOGY AND HOW WELL CAN WE RELY ON THAT TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

>> Gene: INTERESTING YOU MENTION THAT TECHNOLOGY.

INEZ, OUR WASTEWATER SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM HALTED AT THE END OF SEPTEMBER.

IT IS SUPPOSED TO RESUME IN DECEMBER BUT IT WAS DURING A CRITICAL PERIOD WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO ASSESS HOW BAD THE SITUATION IS.

AND I REMIND FOLKS WE HAD EVERY COUNTY READ BUT ONE THIS WEEK IN NEW MEXICO.

SO, WE NEED INFORMATION, DON'T WE?

>> Inez: WE NEED INFORMATION AND WE ALSO NEED ACCEPTANCE.

I THINK THERE WAS A POLITICAL DECISION AMONG EVERYBODY, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS THAT WE WERE JUST GOING TO PRETEND COVID WAS DONE AND GO ABOUT OUR LIVES AND WE ARE LIVING WITH THE RESULTS OF THAT.

AND IT IS NOT DONE AND I READ RECENTLY THAT THERE IS A NEW VARIANT PERHAPS DEVELOPING THAT THE MONOCLONAL ANTIBODIES THEY TREAT COVID WITH PROBABLY WON'T WORK ON.

SO, WE'LL PROBABLY END UP WITH A VARIANT THAT WE CAN'T TREAT THE WAY WE CAN.

AND THE REALITY IS, YOU KNOW, DESPITE WHAT A DOCTOR TWEETS, MASKS DO WORK, SOCIAL DISTANCING WORKS, VENTILATION WORKS.

AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT, IF YOU ARE COMMUTING AND RIDING, YOU KNOW, IN THE COMMUTER BUSES, SITTING IN A COMMUTER BUS TWO HOURS A DAY WITH PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE PLACES WHERE YOU CAN GET VERY, VERY SICK.

AND ONE MORE POINT ABOUT WORKING AT HOME.

IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT A SCHEDULE WHERE PEOPLE CAN SPEND A COUPLE OF DAYS, SOME DAYS IN THE OFFICE, YOU KNOW, DO BOTH, JUST THINK OF HOW MANY CARS YOU ARE GETTING OFF THE ROAD AND HOW MUCH THAT IS GOING TO REDUCE GASES THAT CAUSE CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF, I THINK, REASONS TO MAKE THE TRANSITION TO OUR NEW WAY OF WORKING.

IT IS JUST COMPLICATED AND IT IS HARD BUT I REALLY BELIEVE IF WE THINK ABOUT IT, WE CAN DO IT AND SERVE THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO AND, YOU KNOW, SPEND THEIR DOLLARS WISELY.

>> Gene: EXCELLENT POINTS THERE.

JUST A REMINDER FOLKS, WE HAVE A JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL IN PORTALES CLOSED THIS WEEK BECAUSE RSV IS RAGING THROUGH STUDENTS AND STAFF IS SICK.

NOT ENOUGH STAFF TO OPEN THE SCHOOL.

SO THERE YOU GO.

THANKS AGAINST TO LINE PANELISTS.

BACK FOR A FINAL DISCUSSION ON BUS FARES AND ACCESS TO PUBLIC TRANSIT AFTER ACTION FROM THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL.

THAT'S IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES.

FIRST, WE WANT TO ZERO IN ON A NEW POLL THAT SHOWS WIDESPREAD SUPPORT FOR MODERNIZING THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

THAT COULD INCLUDE CHANGES LIKE LENGTHENING SESSIONS, EXPANDING LEGISLATIVE STAFF, HERE, HERE, AND PAYING LAWMAKERS.

IN A RECENT FACEBOOK LIVE INTERVIEW I SPOKE WITH MARIO JIMENEZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF COMMON CAUSE NEW MEXICO, ABOUT WHAT THE POLL FOUND AND ASK IF WE COULD SEE ANY CHANGES AS EARLY AS 2023.

>> IN BROAD STROKES WHO DID YOU HIRE FOR THE POLLS?

WHAT WAS THE INTENT?

WHAT DID YOU WANT TO FIND OUT AT COMMON CAUSE?

>> Jimenez: YEAH, SO, IN COLLABORATION WITH A FEW LOCAL GROUPS AS WELL AS SOME INDEPENDENT INDIVIDUALS AND WITH FUNDING FROM THE THORNBURG FOUNDATION, WE WERE ABLE TO COMMISSION A POLL THROUGH RESEARCH AND POLLING WHO IS A WELL-KNOWN POLLING FIRM HERE OUT OF NEW MEXICO.

AND REALLY THE GOAL WAS TO SEE WHAT NEW MEXICANS FEEL ABOUT MODERNIZING PROFESSIONALIZING OR LEGISLATURE.

WHAT WE CAN DO TO HELP IMPROVE THE PROCESS.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED THERE IS THREE KEY GOALS CIRCULATING AROUND IT.

THOSE BEING ACTUALLY PAYING OUR LEGISLATORS, WHO ARE CURRENTLY UNPAID, RECEIVE A STIPEND, AND, OF COURSE, HIRING THEM FULL-TIME PAID STAFF, WHICH THEY CURRENTLY DO NOT HAVE.

A LOT OF NEW MEXICANS ARE UNAWARE OF.

AND LASTLY EXTENDING THE LENGTH OF THE SESSION WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE STILL UNSURE OF, THAT WE HAVE 30 AND 60-DAY SESSIONS SO TO CRAM IN ALL THE VARIOUS PIECES OF LEGISLATION TO TRY TO HELP IMPROVE OUR LAWS IN THE STATE SO THOSE ARE THREE MAIN COMPONENTS CIRCULATING.

>> Gene: LET'S TALK ABOUT SESSION LENGTH.

WHAT WERE THE RESULTS THERE BECAUSE, AGAIN, I THINK IF YOU HAVE NOT LIVED OTHER PLACES, THIS IS NOT A PUT DOWN FOR FOLKS, CERTAINLY, WHO LIVE HERE, BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT A FULL-TIME SESSION LOOKS LIKE AND FEELS LIKE VERSUS HOW WE DO IT NOW IS AN AWFULLY BIG LEAP.

WHAT DID YOU FIND WHEN IT COMES TO SESSION LENGTH?

>> Jimenez: THIS IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE LARGEST NUMBERS THAT WE SAW.

I MEAN WE SAW A VAST MAJORITY ACROSS PARTY LINES.

I WANT TO SAY IT WAS 70% OF THOSE WHO WERE SURVEYING DO FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO HAVE LENGTHENED SESSIONS.

NOW, WE OFTEN SEE IN THE FINAL WEEKS OF EITHER THE 30 OR 60-DAY SESSION WHERE BILLS ARE JUST CRAMMED INTO COMMITTEES AND PASSED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WHERE IT HAS MOST OF THE PUBLIC ARE NOT HAVING TO WATCH AND RELY ON WHAT IS GOING ON.

BY EXTENDING OUR SESSIONS NOT ONLY DO WE PROVIDE MORE TIME FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE INVOLVED IN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER IMPORTANT COMPONENT IS GIVING OUR LEGISLATORS AND THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF TIME TO PROPERLY RESEARCH THE LEGISLATION THAT IS BEFORE THEM, SO THEY ARE NOT MAKING DECISIONS LATE AT NIGHT WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY TIRED.

I THINK WE DID NEED TO PROVIDE THEM WITH MORE TIME AS WELL AS RESOURCES TO MAKE THE GOOD DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO AND MAKE SURE THEY HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT LEGISLATION AND TO MAKE SURE IT ACTUALLY CAN BE APPROPRIATELY IMPLEMENTED.

NOT JUST PASSED.

>> Gene: TELL THE FOLKS WHAT YOU GUYS FOUND ABOUT HOW PEOPLE THINK LEGISLATORS ARE BEING PAID NOW VERSUS THE REALITY OF HOW THEY ARE PAID NOW.

>> Jimenez: ABSOLUTELY.

FIRST WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING UP IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE SEE A LOT IN MAINSTREAM MEDIA, WE HEAR A LOT OF TALK ABOUT -- WE HEAR ABOUT THE SLOW DOWN, THE BOG DOWN, NOTHING HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, THEY GET PAID BEAUCOUP BUCKS TO COME AND GO, THEY GET TO FLY BACK AND FORTH, UNLIMITED USE OF THE U.S. MAIL.

AND IMMEDIATELY, THERE IS ASSOCIATION WITH OUR LOCAL LEGISLATORS AND THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

THERE IS A DISCONNECT THERE, FROM UNDERSTANDING OF HOW LEGISLATION AND OUR LEGISLATORS OPERATE IN THE DC SPECTRUM VERSUS OUR LOCAL LEGISLATORS.

SO, IN DOING SO, YOU KNOW, WE POSE A QUESTION TO LIKELY VOTERS WHO WERE SURVEYED.

HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THAT OUR LEGISLATORS ARE COMPENSATED?

I'LL JUST JUMP TO ONE OF THE BIGGEST NUMBERS THAT REALLY BLEW ME AWAY WAS ONLY 2% OF THOSE THAT WERE SURVEYED KNEW THAT OUR LEGISLATOR IS UNPAID.

ONLY 2%.

SO, IF YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT IS AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A MISCONCEPTION THAT WE HAVE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE GOING TO SANTA FE AND THINK THEY ARE MAKING BIG BUCKS.

AND THAT IS JUST NOT THE CASE.

I THINK, AGAIN, THAT GOES BACK TO WHERE WE NEED TO PROPERLY EDUCATE OUR CITIZENS OF WHAT EXACTLY OUR LEGISLATORS DO AND HOW THEY ARE COMPENSATED.

AND, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THOSE NUMBERS, WE FOUND THERE WAS 64% OF LIKELY VOTERS, AGAIN, THIS IS ACROSS THE BOARD, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS AS WELL AS INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE UNAFFILIATED, WHO NOW SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF PAYING OUR LEGISLATORS.

SO, I THINK THAT IS AGAIN VERY GOOD NUMBERS.

IT SHOWS THAT THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WITHIN NEW MEXICO, A VAST MAJORITY OF INDIVIDUALS IN NEW MEXICO, WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE OUR LEGISLATORS PAID, COMPENSATED FOR THE WORK THEY ARE DOING ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE.

>> Gene: AS AN EX-CONGRESSIONAL STAFFER, I AM SENSITIVE TO THIS AND STAFFER IN OTHER PLACES TOO, WHAT DO WE GAIN FROM HAVING MORE STAFF FOR FOLKS OUT THERE?

AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT VALUE FOR THE MONEY.

IF THIS IS GOING TO GO OUT TO THE PUBLIC, SOMEONE HAS TO MAKE A VALUE CASE BASICALLY SAYING, IF WE PAY THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY, HERE IS WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO EXPECT THAT IS WILDLY BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

NOT JUST A LITTLE BIT BUT WAY, WAY BETTER.

WHAT DO WE GAIN WITH MORE STAFF?

YOU TOUCHED ON IT.

LOBBYISTS ARE DE FACTO STAFF RIGHT NOW.

BUT AGAIN THAT PITCH TO THE PUBLIC, HOW DOES THAT GET OUT THERE?

>> Jimenez: IN ADDITION TO LIMITING THE POWER IN YOUR LOBBYISTS, ONE OF THE BIGGEST BENEFITS YOU'RE GOING TO SEE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN APPRECIATE FROM YOUR PAST LIFE AS WELL, IS CONSTITUENT SERVICES.

RIGHT NOW OUR LEGISLATURE IS OUT OF SESSION.

SO THE VAST MAJORITY OF, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE IN LEADERSHIP, DO NOT HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL TO ASSIST THEM WITH CONSTITUENT SERVICES.

WHAT PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS OUR LEGISLATORS THEMSELVES ARE RECEIVING HUNDREDS OF CORRESPONDENCE DAILY THROUGH EMAIL, THROUGH TEXT MESSAGE, SOCIAL MEDIA AND THAT ONE PERSON IS OPERATING AS THEIR OWN OFFICE.

THAT ONE LEGISLATOR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING BACK TO EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE CORRESPONDENTS, SO A LOT TIMES, YOU WILL HAVE A CONSTITUENT WHO HAS A VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT GETS LOST AND BURIED IN HUNDREDS OF EMAILS, HUNDREDS OF TEXT MESSAGES AND VOICE MAILS.

QUITE OFTEN I HEAR IN TALKING TO THE PUBLIC, WELL, THERE IS NO POINT IN ME CALLING MY LEGISLATOR.

THEIR VOICE MAIL IS FULL, WITHOUT AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY MAY HAVE A FULL-TIME JOB, IN ADDITION TO HAVING A FAMILY AT HOME AND IN ADDITION TO HAVING TO RESPOND TO EACH AND EVERY SINGLE CORRESPONDENCE THEMSELVES.

SO, BY PROVIDING THEM WITH A STAFF MEMBER WHO CAN ASSIST THEM WITH THOSE CONSTITUENT SERVICES, ATTENDING MEETINGS THAT THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT ONES THAT MAY BE SCHEDULED AROUND THE SAME TIME.

A LOT OF THESE DISTRICTS ARE QUITE LARGE SO IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE TO TRAVEL FROM THE NORTHERN PART OF THE DISTRICT TO SOUTHERN PART OF THE DISTRICT TO MAKE ANOTHER COMMUNITY MEETING.

IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT TASK FOR OUR LEGISLATORS TO PERFORM ON THEIR OWN.

>> Gene: LIKELY VOTERS BETWEEN 18 AND 34 POLLED STRONGEST IN FAVOR OF PAYING LEGISLATORS, 78% VOTING IN FAVOR, WHICH UNBELIEVABLE NUMBER.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE SUPPORT FOR PAYING SO STRONG WITH NEWER VOTERS, GEN Z AND MILLENNIALS, COMPARED TO OLDER VOTERS, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN 35 AND 64, CAME IN AT 64%, AND SENIORS ONLY 56%.

IS THE FUTURE SPEAKING LOUDLY HERE?

>> Jimenez: I THINK THEY ABSOLUTELY ARE AND THIS IS A TREND THAT WE HAVE BEEN SEEING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, RIGHT.

IF YOU LOOK AT VOTER TURNOUT EVEN, WE ARE SEEING TYPICALLY, YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THE OLDER GENERATION THAT MEANS A VAST MAJORITY OF INDIVIDUALS WHO TURN OUT AND VOTE.

AND WITH A LOT OF KEY ISSUES SURROUNDING COLLEGE, SURROUNDING HEALTHCARE, SURROUNDING RETIREMENT, YOU KNOW, LONGEVITY OF SOCIAL SECURITY, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF YOUNGER GENERATIONS TURNING OUT TO VOTE, BEING VOCAL AND PARTICIPATING IN THE OVERALL DEMOCRACY OF OUR COUNTRY AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS POLL SHOWS THAT OUR YOUNGER GENERATIONS ARE BECOMING MORE ENGAGED AND HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHIN OUR LEGISLATURE AND WITHIN POLITICS AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME CHANGE THAT IS GOING TO HELP IMPROVE THEM AND OTHER GENERATIONS BEYOND.

>> Gene: THAT'S GOING TO BE HEARD, I THINK.

THAT IS WHERE THIS POLL IS GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF LEGS.

IT REALLY HAS JUST UNCORKED A LOT OF INTERESTING THINGS.

I AM WONDERING MARIO, THERE IS ANOTHER POLL YET TO BE PUT OUT THERE.

THERE IS ALWAYS THE INITIAL POLL THAT GETS PEOPLE TO OPEN THEIR EYES.

I AM WONDERING ABOUT ANOTHER ONE FROM COMMON CAUSE DOWN THE ROAD TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS LIKE LENGTH OF SESSIONS, LIKE WHAT WOULD YOU PREFER?

THOSE OPEN-ENDED QUESTIONS.

IS THAT SOMETHING IN THE PLANNING STAGES?

>> Jimenez: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTIONS.

WE DO HAVE A SECOND PHASE COMING ON.

WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT DOING IS PUTTING ON A FEW FOCUS GROUPS THAT WAY WE HAVE MORE IN-DEPTH CONVERSATIONS WITH NEW MEXICANS ABOUT THESE VARIOUS TOPICS RATHER THAN JUST ASKING THEM A FEW QUESTIONS, GIVE THEM SOME ACTUAL BACKGROUND AND HEAR SOME FEEDBACK FROM THEM ON WHAT DO THEY FEEL WOULD BE THE BEST AVENUE.

AS YOU MENTIONED, SHOULD WE GO TO A 60 DAY?

SHOULD WE GO TO A FULL YEAR?

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU FEEL WOULD BE BEST TO ADDRESS THESE VARIOUS SHORTFALLS THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE IN OUR LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS.

>> Gene: WELCOME BACK TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS AS WE GET SET FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION.

ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCILORS ARE CONSIDERING A PROPOSAL TO MODIFY THE BUS SYSTEMS ZERO FAIR PROGRAM.

MAKING IT A CRIME TO TRY TO RIDE WITHOUT PAYING OR SHOWING A PASS OR AN ID.

THE ONLY WAY FOR RIDERS TO RIDE FREE WOULD BE TO PRESENT THAT PHOTO ID.

I AM GOING TO START WITH TOM.

THIS ZERO FARE PROGRAM HAS BEEN IN EFFECT LESS THAN A YEAR.

IS THIS PUSH BY CITY COUNCILORS TO CHANGE THE PROGRAM PREMATURE?

WHAT HAS PROMPTED ALL OF THIS?

EVERYONE SEEMED GUNG-HO FOR THIS NOT THAT LONG AGO.

>> Tom: LACK OF REALLY USABLE INFORMATION AT LEAST PEOPLE USING RELIABLE INFORMATION.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT I LIKE THE IDEA.

I LIKE -- I THINK ZERO FAIR PROGRAM IS A GOOD PROGRAM, YOU KNOW.

IT PROVIDES A GREAT NEED AND EXPOSES MORE PEOPLE TO THE CONCEPT OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION OUT IN THE WEST.

I THINK THE REASON IT HAS BEEN COMING UNDER SCRUTINY IS BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE -- HAVE REALLY MADE A HUGE ISSUE FOR A VERY, YOU KNOW, LIMITED ITEMS AS FAR AS CRIME IS CONCERNED.

AND JUST BECAUSE THERE ARE A FEW ISOLATED INCIDENTS ALL OF A SUDDEN IT BECOMES A PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE.

SO I THINK THAT IS TRULY THE DRIVER OF THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME.

>> Gene: INEZ WE HEARD FROM OPPONENTS OF A SIMILAR ISSUE PROVIDING SOME FORM OF ID TO VOTE.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THIS.

YOU KNOW THE IDEA SUCH MEASURES PLACE A BARRIER IN FRONT OF MINORITIES AND LOWER CLASS RESIDENTS.

IN THIS CASE, ADDING THAT ID REQUIREMENT TO RIDE WOULD ALSO IMPACT UNDOCUMENTED CITIZENS WHO NEED PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

DOES THIS PROPOSAL KIND OF, YOU KNOW, FOLD IN ALL THOSE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS OF OUR SOCIETY WITH THIS IDEA OF GOAL OF ZERO FAIR?

>> Inez: I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THE BUS RIDE FREE, IT IS FREE.

AND YOU DON'T PUT UP A BARRIER AGAINST PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE THE GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

AND ESPECIALLY ONE OF THE GOALS OF THE ZERO FARE NATIONWIDE MOVEMENT IS THAT POOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE CARS STILL HAVE TO SPEND MORE OF THEIR INCOME ON TRANSPORTATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO PAY BUS FARES.

AND YOU KNOW ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS THEY USE IT FOR.

AND IF YOU WANT THEM TO PUT MONEY IN THEIR POCKET TO BUY FOOD OR PAY THEIR RENT, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY TRANSPORTATION.

SO, MAKING IT HARDER IS JUST, YOU KNOW, HONESTLY IS STUPID.

AND ALBUQUERQUE IS TURNING INTO A PLACE THAT WANTS TO CRIMINALIZE BEING POOR IS NOT A GOOD LOOK.

EVEN IF YOU SAY, LET'S HAVE A -- YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PASS.

EVEN IF YOU DID THAT, TO THEN MAKE IT A MISDEMEANOR TO NOT PRESENT THE PASS IS ADDING ONE MORE LAYER OF RIDICULOUSNESS.

THE JAILS THERE ARE OVERCROWDED.

COURTS ARE FULL.

COPS ARE BUSY DOING OTHER THINGS AND I WILL BET YOU, I DON'T KNOW WHAT, BUT YOU CAN IMAGINE A HOMELESS PERSON GETTING SHOT ON THE BUS IF THIS GOES IN LIKE THIS.

AND I JUST SEE EITHER CHARGE THEM BECAUSE YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD PAY TO RIDE THE BUS, THAT IS A LEGITIMATE POLICY DECISION, OR SAY, WE ARE GOING TO GO FREE AND MAKE IT FREE AND IF SOME MIDDLE CLASS PERSON DOESN'T WANT TO SIT NEXT TO A HOMELESS PERSON THEY CAN GET UP AND SIT AT THE OTHER END.

>> Gene: LOVE YOU FOR THAT.

ALGERNON, I GOT TO ASK YOU, YOU ARE DOWN IN DEMING, OF COURSE, SOUTH CENTRAL REGIONAL TRANSIT AUTHORITY IN DONA ANA COUNTY OUTSIDE OF LAS CRUCES, AS YOU KNOW, ELIMINATED FARES FROM APRIL TO LABOR DAY THIS YEAR.

AS A RESULT THEY NOTED A 15% RIDERSHIP INCREASE.

ISN'T THAT THE GOAL OF THESE PROGRAMS?

I MEAN, DOES THAT SETTLE THE ISSUE FOR YOU?

>> Algernon: YEAH.

SO WE HAVE THIS INDEFINITE TRIAL PERIOD TO SEE HOW THIS WORKS AND PART OF IT IS TO SEE DEMAND INCREASES AND WHAT EXPENSE WILL BE INVOLVES NOT ONLY REGULAR RIDERSHIP BUT THE CITY'S DIAL-A-RIDE SERVICE WHICH IS A HOME-TO-DESTINATION SERVICE PROVIDED FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HOME BOUND, WHEELCHAIR BOUND, THEY NEED THAT SERVICE.

THAT IS A MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE SERVICE BUT IT IS A FEDERAL REQUIREMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE REGULAR RIDERS RIDE FOR FREE, THE DIAL-A-RIDE FOLKS ALSO HAVE TO RIDE FOR FREE.

SO, I AM NERVOUS, I AM WATCHING WHAT HAPPENS IN LAS CRUCES BECAUSE I KNOW FROM OVER THE PAST YEAR OR SO, THE UNHOUSED POPULATIONS HAVE BECOME KIND OF A TARGET OF THE POLITICAL SPHERE AND THEY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED AS A PUBLIC SAFETY THREAT.

AND ANY SPACE WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT ENCOUNTER THE UNHOUSED GETS STIGMATIZED AS BEING LESS SAFE.

SO, I AM HOPING THAT THAT DOESN'T JEOPARDIZE TRIAL OF THE ZERO FARE BECAUSE RIDERSHIP WILL GO UP AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED.

WE NEED TO CUT DOWN ON THE EMISSIONS.

WE NEED TO ALSO JUST CUT DOWN ON HOW EXPENSIVE IT IS TO BE POOR.

>> Gene: TOM, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO SOMETHING YOU MENTIONED.

WHAT WE HAVE TO COVER A LITTLE BIT MORE IS THE ISSUE OF CRIME ON THE BUSES IN THE REPORTING.

FOR FOLKS AT HOME, THE COUNCIL IN 2021 ASKED FOR A REPORT ON THIS ISSUE OF SECURITY INCIDENTS.

FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR, THERE WERE 135 TRANSIT RELATED INCIDENTS ACCORDING TO THE DATA SHARED WITH THE COUNCIL.

BUT LEFT OUT OF THE COUNCIL DISCUSSION IS THERE WAS ONE MILLION, NINE-HUNDRED THOUSAND BOARDINGS OR INDIVIDUAL RIDES THROUGHOUT THE SYSTEM.

THOSE INCIDENTS ACCOUNTED FOR LESS THAN 1% OF ALL RIDES BUT THIS IS ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS CRIME ON THE BUS.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?

SOMETHING IS A DISCONNECTION HERE.

>> Tom: IT IS A HUGE DISCONNECT AND SOURCE NEW MEXICO, A BLOG, WAS ONE WHO ACTUALLY COMPILED A LOT OF THAT DATA SO GREAT SHOUT OUT TO THEM.

WITH RESPECT TO MEDIA IN GENERAL, BECAUSE THE MEDIA IS WHAT IS SHAPING THESE PARTICULAR ISSUES AT TIMES, THERE IS JUST NOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY DIG INTO THIS LEVEL OF DETAIL ESPECIALLY ON THE TELEVISION SIDE.

NEWSPAPER SIDE YES, BUT IN THE WORLD OF SOUNDBITES AND 30-SECOND STORIES, 15 SECOND NEWSERS, BROADCAST DOES NOT PROVIDE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO DEEP ON DIFFERENT ISSUES.

SO AS A RESULT, SOMETIMES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING INTERVIEWED HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SHAPE AN ARGUMENT TO SUIT THEIR PARTICULAR POSITION.

>> Gene: THEY HAVE WON THIS ONE, I AM TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW.

OF THOSE 135 INCIDENTS, INEZ, ONLY 32 OCCURRED ON THE BUS.

32.

OUT OF MILLION-NINE RIDES.

WHERE IS THE SENSE OF ALL THIS?

HOW CAN WE MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RATIONAL ABOUT CRIME HERE?

>> Inez: I THINK THAT THE REALITY IS THAT CRIME IN AMERICA PEEKED IN THE LATE 90'S, AS WE ALL KNOW, AND EVEN THOUGH IT HAS RISEN IN RECENT YEARS, IT IS NOT AS BAD AS IT WAS THEN FOR THE MOST PART WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW INSTANCES DEPENDING ON THE AREA OF THE CITY OR STATE.

BUT WE ARE AFRAID.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU HAVE TELEVISION STATIONS THAT LEAD WITH CRIME ALL THE TIME AND WHEN YOU HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE NERVOUS BECAUSE THEIR CAR GETS STOLEN OUT OF THE DRIVEWAY, THINGS HAPPEN TO THEM AND HAPPENS TO THEIR FRIENDS, AND IT MAKES SENSE THAT THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE BUT ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE ISN'T THE SAME AS REALITY.

AND WE ARE LIVING IN AN ANECDOTAL WORLD WHERE WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR FRIEND BECOMES REALITY FOR EVERYBODY.

AND IF YOU RIDE ON THE BUS AND YOU SEE SOMEONE SHOPLIFTING IN THE CORNER -- NOT SHOPLIFTING BUT STEALING SOMEONE'S PURSE, ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU THINK IT IS NOT SAFE FOR EVERYONE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO STEP BACK AND ACTUALLY WHAT ALBUQUERQUE SHOULD DO, I HOPE, IS LOOK AT THOSE INSTANCES, SEE WHO IS ACTUALLY DOING THEM AND REALLY SAY, SOUNDS LIKE THE BUSES ARE ONE OF THE MORE SAFE PLACES IN THE CITY, HONESTLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT LESS THAN 1%.

>> Gene: THERE IS BEING CALLED, ALGERNON, A HYPERBOLIC NARRATIVE OF CRIME, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, THAT IS KIND OF RULING THE DAY HERE.

BUT WE MUST ADD MOST RIDERS IN ALBUQUERQUE ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN OR LATINO.

SO IT IS EASY TO DO THIS, ISN'T IT, WHEN IT IS JUST MINORITY PEOPLE AND TALKING ABOUT CRIME.

SOMETHING SEEMS VERY OBVIOUS HERE UNLESS I AM MISSING SOMETHING.

>> Algernon: IT HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED.

WE JUST GOT THROUGH A POLITICAL CYCLE WHERE THAT SO-CALLED HYPERBOLIC NARRATIVE ABOUT CRIME IS -- WAS PREVALENT THROUGHOUT THAT CAMPAIGN AND MADE A DIFFERENCE IN SOME OF THE CAMPAIGNS.

DOWN HERE, I LIVE IN A CITY IN DEMING WHERE I RECENTLY TOOK OVER OUR NEWSPAPER AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REALLY ANXIOUS ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE DON'T HAVE BLOTTER STYLE CRIME REPORTING ANYMORE WHICH EMPHASIZES THE ARRESTS RATHER THAN THE WHOLE PROCESS AND EXONERATIONS AND PLEA AGREEMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THAT IS BECAUSE THERE IS JUST THIS SENSE THAT THERE MUST BE THIS TERRIBLE DANGER IN MY COMMUNITY AND SO I THINK THAT USING THESE THINGS IN OUR POLITICS THIS WAY REALLY IS ACTUALLY BAD FOR PUBLIC SAFETY BECAUSE PEOPLE WITHDRAW FROM PUBLIC SPACES WHERE, YOU KNOW, THESE SHARED THINGS LIKE LIBRARIES AND BUSES, THESE REALLY SORT OF SAFE ANODYNE MUNICIPAL SPACES THAT WE SHARE TOGETHER BECOME VIEWED AS DANGEROUS BECAUSE WE MIGHT BE EXPOSED TO SOMEBODY WHO IS DIFFERENT, MIGHT SEE A HOMELESS PERSON, MIGHT SEE SOMEBODY WHO HAS A DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT SKIN COLOR, HAS A ETHNIC BACKGROUND THAN ME.

AND THAT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE AND WE EQUATE THAT SOMEHOW WITH BEING LESS SAFE.

>> Gene: REMINDER TO THE FOLKS AT HOME, THAT DECISION, THIS COUNCIL HAS RECENTLY VOTED TO REMOVE ALL REFERENCES TO SAFE OUTDOOR SPACES WITHIN THE CITY ZONING CODE, ALL KINDS OF THINGS GOING ON WHEN IT COMES TO HOMELESS, PEOPLE OF COLOR.

WE ARE TRYING.

THANKS AGAIN TO THE LINE PANEL AS ALWAYS THIS WEEK.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANY TOPICS THE LINE COVERED ON OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES AND CATCH ANY EPISODE YOU MAY HAVE MISSED ON THE PBS VIDEO APP ON YOUR ROKU OR SMART TV.

ANY OTHER CLOSE WATCHERS OF THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL HAD ENOUGH WHIPLASH YET.

GO, NO GO NATURE OF THE COUNCIL IS FRANKLY GETTING HOLD.

FULL THROTTLE SUPPORT FOR VOTES IN PROGRESS SEEMINGLY NEVER STAND THE TEST OF VOTER REACTION.

A GREAT IDEA IN JUNE, IT IS TOAST BY AUGUST.

THERE IS LIKELY NEVER BEEN A CITY COUNCIL IN MODERN ALBUQUERQUE HISTORY WHO HAS BOTCHED, FUMBLED, POOCHED OR ANY OTHER WAY YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE IT, SO MANY ISSUES IN ONE YEAR.

AT THIS POINT ONE CAN IMAGINE VOTERS TURNING OFF TO THE PROCESS.

HOW CAN POLICIES GO FROM VOTING IN ENTHUSIASTIC AFFIRMATIVE VOTES TO PERMANENTLY BANNED BY STATUTE IN LESS THAN SIX MONTHS.

GOVERNANCE IS CURRENTLY BACKWARDS AT COUNCIL.

TAKE A TOUGH VOTE AND THEN ASK YOUR CONSTITUENTS AFTERWARDS INSTEAD OF THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

BUS FARES, HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS, STADIUMS, DOWNTOWN, YOU NAME IT, ALL EVENTUALLY DROWNED OUT BY THE SOUND OF GEARS GRINDING INTO REVERSE.

ONE OF MY BEST BOSSES EVER USED TO SAY POLITICIANS DO ONE OF TWO AND TWO THINGS ONLY.

THAT IS NOTHING AND OVER REACTING.

THAT IS CITY COUNCIL RIGHT NOW.

THE OVERREACTION TO CITIZEN COMPLAINTS TO TOUGH VOTES HAS GOT TO STOP BECAUSE WE ARE AT A POINT IN COUNCIL WHERE ANY VOTE IS NOW SUSPECT.

IF IT IS A PROCESS PROBLEM, THEY NEED TO FIX IT.

IF THE PROBLEM IS SPINELESS COUNCIL MEMBERS WHO BLOW WITH THE WIND, VOTERS HAVE A WAY OF FIXING THAT PROBLEM AS WELL.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK IN FOCUS.