- Thank you for joining us, I'm Starla Sampaco, host of Crosscut Now on KCTS 9 and your host for Inside The Newsroom.

Today's edition of Inside The Newsroom will focus on Crosscut Escapes, our new podcast that explores the natural wonders of the Pacific Northwest with local scientists and experts as your tour guides.

Today we're excited to be joined by the host of the podcast, Crosscut Science and Environment Editor, Ted Alvarez.

- Hi.

- Hey, Ted, it's so good to see you.

- Yeah, thanks for having me.

- I'm excited to chat with you today and also later in the show, we'll be joined by Harold Tobin, He's the director of the Pacific Northwest Seismic Network and was featured in the first episode of Crosscut Escapes.

I also want to let everyone know there will be an audience Q and A at the end of the discussion, you can submit a question using the Q and A button at the bottom of your screen in Zoom, or if you're joining on Facebook, just pop a question in the comment section.

Chat will also be open during the event and there's another button for that at the bottom of your screen as well.

All right, Ted, I want to start by asking how this podcast came about, I heard that it started as a passion project for you, is that correct?

- Yeah, basically, it kind of came from a place of, you know, in science and environment we've been covering Coronavirus for the entire year nevermind living through it, just like everyone and in the summer, you know, being able to go outdoors and kind of explore the natural world that we're fortunate enough to have around us here was one of the main routes of escape or freedom in a very difficult time and as the weather changes, that gets harder for people and, you know, obviously the pandemic was just kind of grinding on and so, just talking to my team and everyone here at Crosscut and KCTS 9 we were looking for, I think we just wanted something, a way to go some place else, a way to really experience and understand the Northwest and so, that's kind of where the impetus came from.

- And I also heard, and I think it's super interesting that you chose now to put this podcast out, I also heard that one of, you know, as you were planning this podcast, it was also about this approach of understanding nature through sound which I thought was really interesting because often when we think of nature coverage, you know, I usually think of nature docs or visual imagery, why did you choose this approach through sound?

- One of my, I mean, I think most people know who Ira Glass is from "This American Life" and he said something that has stuck with me throughout my career, which is that audio is a very visual medium, which sounds oxymoronic or strange or kind of off but if you think about it, he's right, it's in some ways, sound is just such a great way to trigger visuals in your imagination.

It connects to the memories if you've been a place, there's actually just a really rich way, whereas, you know, a real visual, an actual visual kind of fills in the story for you.

You look at a picture of Mount Rainier for instance and that is what it is, whereas if you have audio cues, you can kind of build a three-dimensional picture in your mind and to me, at least in some ways it's, you can get closer to being there than just by watching something.

- Yeah, I think it's really interesting you said that because I was listening to your podcast for the first time, the first episode, and I've always said, I'm not really a nature person (laughs), but even listening, hearing how you use the sound to tell that story, it didn't really make me feel like I was there.

So, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about that process of creating this podcast, you know, how are you recording some of these sounds?

What's the process like?

Take us behind the scenes.

- Some of the sounds, so, for every episode we try to have an audio hook, there's like a, there is a specific subject be that volcanoes, in the future it'll be workers, things like that, there's always some, we look for some kind of audio hook and luckily, we also try to contact experts and feature people who are well-versed in, you know, that audio hook, in the first episode, for instance, sound is one of the ways in which geologists can monitor seismic activity or at least speed it up to, you know, the range of human conception and it's just a way to understand things.

So, we were basically looking for that little tag, something that would give each episode its special sauce and, like I said, I've been fortunate enough to get a lot of that from scientists who have collected that in the field and then I've gone into the field myself to collect a little bit of it, just depends on how technical it is, like, is it something where I can just be there and get it?

Or, you know in the case of, you know, noises, seismic noises, I need some expertise to bring those into the audible range for humans and also to understand exactly what's going on.

- Was this the first podcast that you've produced for Crosscut?

- This is the first podcast I've produced for Crosscut, I've produced other podcasts before.

I've produced a podcast called The Explorist a little while ago with my brother who's a sound engineer and you know, that's sort of where some of this came from.

- That's convenient (laughs).

- Yeah, it's fortunate, it's fortunate.

He gave us a big leg up on this first episode.

- So, we have some folks who are joining us and because your podcast is so new, I'm guessing some of them might not have had the chance to listen to it yet.

So, for those folks, you know, who should be listening to this podcast and why should they be listening to it?

- I think there's a lot of reasons, I mean, I think we all need an escape right now, if you look around, it's like, obviously we're immersed in all kinds of really heavy things, whether that's the pandemic or politics or, there's a lot of heavy stuff happening right now.

That's not to say that a lot of these topics aren't necessarily heavy in a way, you know, like a volcano or an earthquake it can be a scary thing, we'll get into some pretty intense environmental issues with when we talk about orcas and things like that, but I think almost anyone can want to escape or everyone can benefit from escaping right about now, and so, if we do it right, this should work for anyone.

I think, especially if you're already engaged in the outdoors, I mean, I think a lot of us are here because we love the natural beauty and it is a whole spectrum, whether you just enjoy seeing it from town and it enriches your life that way, or you spend a lot of time in it, there's a lot of ways to enjoy that and in some ways, I'm hoping that maybe this podcast can be a ladder for them to experience and understand it a little bit more.

- I love that you bring that up 'cause, you know, as I mentioned, I've never really considered myself a nature person until 2020 when I kind of had to be, but I think your podcast kind of makes things seem a little bit less intimidating for those of us who are just dipping our toes in this world.

- Well, I am a lifelong evangelist of like, I love it when I meet people who are like, "Nah, I'm not that into the outdoors" and or, "It's okay," and one of my favorite things to do is either try and get them to try something like baby steps or maybe take them with me or back when that was okay.

And so, yeah, I mean, you know, we came from outdoor, we used to live out there all the time, so, I think there's just like a little kernel in almost anyone that can learn to enjoy it and build on it in some level.

- I'm really interested to hearing more of the podcast, at this point I do want to bring in, bring on Harold Tobin who was one of the featured experts in the first episode of Crosscut Escapes.

Hi, Tobin, this, oh, sorry, Hi, Harold, thanks for joining us.

- Hi, it's a pleasure to be here, thank you.

- Well, I definitely have some questions for you, Harold, but first, Ted, I'm wondering why you chose to bring Harold on for this first episode.

- I chose Harold because I, we had actually spoken before for previous stories.

I think it was during, there was an earthquake in Alaska not too long ago and, you know, since the big one, this sort of article in the New Yorker that dropped like a bomb, not that people in the Pacific Northwest aren't accustomed to earthquakes and seismic activity you know, with previous quakes, but that sort of like raised the temperature and so, anytime there's a seismic thing, it, you know, our readership or people around start asking questions and get nervous and Harold, as you know, a professor who specializes in this and as director of the Pacific Northwest Seismic Network, is just ideally positioned to help us understand this, and so, I'd had a prior experience talking to him and I just felt the temperature coming down when it came to how worried I might be and I also just thought it was really fascinating to learn more about it.

It gets less frightening or at least you can process that stuff.

So, for this episode, he was the first person I thought of to really open up and help people understand.

I think he just has a gift of like taking sometimes some really heady things and bring them down to earth, along with Kate Allstadt, who I should mention, who's our other guests who actually recorded a lot of the sounds that we have in the episode and, you know, she shares her on the ground experience of working with that stuff, and then I thought Harold is really great for kind of zooming out and being like, this is what it means and this is how you can understand it a little better.

- Thank you, Ted, and I wanna elaborate on that point about, you know, folks being really worried about earthquakes.

So, Harold, I think, the first question I have to ask you on the record, how worried should we be about the big earthquake or of Mount Rainier erupting?

- Well, we certainly live in a place that's a geologically active region, you know, whether you like living outside or not, we inhabit a place on the planet and it has volcanoes, it has the potential for earthquakes and as we even saw with some of the small ones that rattled people a little in the past few weeks, we feel them from time to time.

But I think, you know, the watchword should really be prepare not despair.

Every place on the planet is subject to some sort of natural hazard or another and there are lots of ways in which we, you know, we mitigate for those, prepare for those and do fine as a society coming through those not to say that they can't cause damage and trouble but the more we know, you know, first of all as Ted kind of said, just knowledge, I think, helps all of us sort of grasp it and feel a little more comfortable with the realities of this sort of, scary large forces around us, but also whether it's at your own home or whether it's, you know, a seismic safety of buildings and bridges, tunnels and or just understanding how frequently these things occur, the knowledge is really what helps us, I think, move past just fear and into something a little more proactive and positive.

- I thank you for that, Harold, and I do wanna speak a little bit more about, you know, what I heard from you in episode one of Crosscut Escapes which is called Volcano Songs.

There was a segment in there that I found quite interesting where you're talking about harmonic rumblings which are basically the sounds that are produced by a volcano and when you speed them up to audio range, they almost have a musical quality which I thought was really quite beautiful to hear about.

So, I'm curious, you know, it seems like as part of your job you get to have this front row seat to the great natural beauty that our region has to offer, how did you get into this line of work in the first place?

- Yeah, actually, it's a good story 'cause I was a kid who grew up on the East Coast and was a college student on the East Coast but had gotten interested in geology and tectonics, and I found out when I was 19 years old found a summer volunteer job with the forest service at Mount St. Helens, helping them collect the data in the relatively early years, I've been around a while, after the 1980 eruption.

So, I spent a whole summer, camped out up there, living on the volcano.

We felt it rumble from time to time because it was still pretty active in those days, we could see the steam coming from the crater and honestly, you know, that cemented my interest in all of these sorts of things and specifically in being interested in the idea that earth processes like that are alive today, they're not just something, you know, we're talking about from the Cretaceous or millions of years ago, but all of those same things that have happened on any day in any year you want, back through hundreds of millions of years, is going on today at the same, in the same kinds of ways.

So, that really just absolutely engaged me and then I think, you know, we all like the idea of being in an environment like out in the mountains taking a hike or something like that, and adding the seismology and the idea that we have this sort of stethoscope on the ground that's listening all the time, adds yet another dimension to it and I always feel that science doesn't make the mysteries of nature go away, it enhances them for me.

The more you know about the natural world, I think the more exciting, mysterious and really sort of, transcending in feels.

So, I've, you know, made a life of wanting to know more and more and more about these natural processes and I think that that's a great thing that anybody can do kind of, at any level.

- Yeah and I've heard Seattle is a great place for folks in your line of work (chuckles).

- Well, as I say in the podcast, you know, we live in a tectonically active region, that's what makes it beautiful.

We would not have the mountains without the volcanic processes that have built them up or in the case of the North Cascades or the Olympics, the thousands upon thousands of earthquakes that have slowly risen those mountains from the sea floor on up, and also, of course, then the erosion process as in the glaciers and everything else that all shape the landscape around us.

So, it's all part of why it's a great place to live and I am very happy to live here and also not, you know, despite awareness of earthquakes, you know, sort of running for the hills, so to speak.

- Yeah, it's a really great place to live, but, you know, as you both mentioned earlier, so many of the folks who live here, a lot of us when we think about earthquakes even smaller magnitude ones, there is to varying degrees, a little bit of an element of fear where a lot of folks aren't sure what to make of that information.

So, Harold, what has your experience been like, communicating about really complex science to general audiences, especially when there is some fear?

- Yeah, well, right, I think, I guess my philosophy is that yes, the science can be complex, but on the other hand people are naturally interested in it, right, because maybe partly because of that fear, but because it comes from the place that we live in and you know, people experienced maybe smaller earthquakes and they worry about the big one or ones like the Nisqually if people remember that from now very close to 20 years ago.

So, I think that's the natural entry point to get people's curiosity going, and then from there, it's really just about communicating you know, even the sort of detailed, scientific concepts by breaking them down, by starting from things that people do know using, you know, analogies, just walking people through it.

Just like any other complicated topic, if you can walk people through it, then I think they appreciate that and get some understanding.

We scientists have a reputation for being incomprehensible or talking in, you know, in jargon and language that the rest of the world doesn't really know the words of and that can be, we can be guilty of that for sure but, almost all of these things are fundamentally things that we can explain in plain English and I think we should, and we have in fact, a responsibility to do that for people.

- Ted, I'd love for you to chime in, especially as our science and the environment editor, what's your experience been like trying to make these complicated topics a little bit more accessible?

- Yeah, it's interesting, I think a lot of people, they hear something like science and environment editor, and they assume that you are an expert in all of these topics.

And really, all it means is that I spend my time connecting with people like Harold who can help me explain it to other people or it can be a conduit, hopefully for what they have to say.

I think that like most scientists are passionate about what they do.

You don't really get into science because you're interested in passive employment or, you know, you're just trying to get a check, like, you're there because you eat, you know, live, breathe, sleep it, and so, very often my job is easy because their enthusiasm, you just have to tap into that enthusiasm and then that makes it really easy for me to get other people to be excited about it, so, I think that's one thing, is just finding that natural enthusiasm and sometimes it might take a little bit of time, it helps if you can be conversant in it, and you're not on page one from the beginning, but it's that enthusiasm I think is just, I think anyone can connect to that and we were all kids once at bugs and playing in the dirt and wondering where flowers come from and, you know what's really great is scientists never stopped doing that and so, if you can kind of like, tap into that sort of childlike enthusiasm but like enriched by the experience of adulthood, I mean, that just goes a really, really long way to like helping people get, connect with almost any topic.

- Speaking of that enthusiasm for scientific phenomena, that kind of does remind me of another conversation I was having earlier where I was learning about how there are folks who try to predict earthquakes and things like that, which I'm sure obviously, Harold is very familiar with, what are your thoughts on that, Harold?

These big earthquake prediction websites or channels?

- Well, there's an awful lot of, yeah, of not very helpful information on the internet and you have to wade through it.

To some extent, there are certainly YouTube channels of people with all kinds of earthquake prediction ideas that are just really not based in any kind of science or really, truly, actually logic, they might sound good to people, but they're not doing it.

We are working very hard towards the concept of trying to understand how, what the actual methodologies for predicting earthquakes might be.

I'll make a distinction between volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, volcanoes often show us very clear signs that they're building up what we call volcanic unrest or getting close to eruptive activity, and as was seen in 1980 and as we've seen since then in some of the times at Mount St. Helens, other volcanoes, were likely to have pretty good science, that's not to say that always eruptions will come with plenty of warning time but we often see signs.

Earthquakes unfortunately, are a bit fiendishly different that way, the forces that, you know, stress a fault in the earth build up over decades, sometimes hundreds even thousands of years, and then the fault breaks and the break in the fault is the earthquake and that happens over a matter of seconds to minutes and we really generally don't know when it's coming.

It's not true that all earthquakes, for example, have four shocks or events that lead up to them that we can detect, some do, but a minority.

So, there's a lot going on in terms of seismology and research that's just trying to really listen in detail to what's happening in the earth and using these tools to try to advance our ability to do that, but the science of it, unfortunately right now is that we have to prepare for earthquakes, we can forecast them, meaning the sort of long-term prediction of saying Washington State is a place with significant seismic hazard and here's our sort of probability over some time period like the next 30 years or the next 50 years, we can do that pretty well, but the short term, okay, next Thursday, there's going to be, you know, an event of magnitude X in this spot, that is really not where our science is at all today and we'd it to be there, but we have a long way to go.

- Thank you, Harold.

Before we move on to Q and A, I just have one more question for Ted.

What can we look forward to in this upcoming season of Crosscut Escapes?

- Hopefully, we'll go to a bunch of different places.

Well, I'm trying to balance different kinds of ecosystems so, we went to the mountains and volcanoes for this episode, we'll head out to the rainforests and the coasts for the Olympic Peninsula for the next episode and then there'll be one on the Columbia River which is another, you know, dominant force in the Northwest, specifically we'll get into salmon and things like that.

There will be an episode on orcas and the language that they use, that's the audio hook in that episode is their actual noises that they make, and then the other ecosystem is the city, frankly, because I think we think that like, that stops when we hit the city, but there's actually you know, rich, rich amounts of wildlife here, so, for that episode we're gonna be exploring the, it's a joint project between the Woodland Park zoo and Seattle University, it's called the Urban Carnivore Project.

We'll talk about, you know, all of the coyotes and things that are present in our city, so yeah, those are some of the episodes we'll be running to.

- Urban Carnivore Project, I'm excited to listen to that one.

- Yeah.

- All right, well, thank you both for that conversation, we have a few minutes now for Q and A.

So, I'm looking through the questions from our audience and the first one here is for both of you, what's your favorite outdoor spot in Washington?

Who would like to go first?

- Oh, I'll say, I'll say that, that, I don't know, wow, you're asking me to give up like a closely guarded secret especially if I'm supposed, especially if I'm supposed to get very specific, but I will say that's also in part you're asking me to pick between my favorite children, but (Starla laughs) I would say that, or right now, my favorite is just the North Cascades, specifically in and around the park, the really Northern part of the North Cascades is one of my favorites.

Some of the areas around Copper Ridge and like the Copper Ridge loop is spectacular if you have time to do that kind of backpacking trip.

I think the North Cascades is highly underrated, Olympic Rainier, they get a lot of attention and also what I really like about the North Cascades is that its beauty is not very easily on display.

Like, you really have to get into the back country to see it, to see all of the glaciers and all of the really impressive peaks and all the wildlife.

So, yeah, that's kind of my, generally speaking that's kinda my favorite right now.

- And are there spaces, Ted, are they, like for someone like me who's not, you know, very beginner hiker, are those things that people like me can get to or is that something I'd have to train for?

- You could absolutely do it.

The great thing about hiking is that it's just one foot in front of the other, you do it every day already and so, a little bit of preparation and safety and stuff like that, you can experience it with little to no training and so, yeah, there's a, I mean, that Copper Ridge loop that I've mentioned, that takes anywhere from three to five days but if you're not up for that, don't wanna sleep in a tent, the hike right up to Hannigan pass and then Hannigan peak, which is just the first second, you can do that and be back home, you know in time for pizza, you know, on a weekend, so, that's another way to experience that.

- Thank you, I was writing down notes and I'll let you know how that goes.

- Wow, I can't wait to hear.

- Harold, how about you, what are your favorite outdoor spots in Washington if you can pick one?

- Yeah, I was afraid you would put me on the spot 'cause there are so many.

I mentioned Mount St. Helens already, which as I said, has deep, deep roots in my heart for that reason and up around, you know, talking about places that are accessible and you can just go for a stroll for a day up in Mount Baker, check scenario, you know, drive up in the summertime by where the ski area is and the amazing hikes you can do up there, vistas and things, but the Olympics also for me are really and the Olympic Coast itself, is probably, I also had a chance to do a lot of field work way back when a couple of decades ago on the Olympic Peninsula, and so, going back there just reminds me of those things and the beauty of both the mountains and the rainforest and the coast and putting it all together just I think is what's extra special.

- Really cool.

Well, let's see what other questions we have from our audience.

Oh, this is a good one for you, Ted.

Will you have a podcast or podcast episode on safety and ethics while out in nature?

- It's really interesting, we've certainly published plenty of stories on that.

I think that's a great idea.

I don't really have, actually, the one, the episode about the Olympic about Olympic National Park is, it's about this area called One Square Inch of Silence, it's basically like this place that's been designated for quiet and so, there's a little bit about the ethics of like noise and like what wilderness means to different people and kind of preserving that.

But there isn't one slated for, you know, that's entirely on back country ethics, but like I said we cover that all the time on Crosscut.com.

We've covered, you know, recreating responsibly in a pandemic in several different articles kind of overcrowding and you know, what your responsibility is, especially if you go to remote towns and things like that and the risks there in a pandemic, so, I think we'll continue to cover that on Crosscut.com and then I also think that's a fantastic idea for the next round of Crosscut Escapes, so, certainly incorporate that.

- Yeah, so, shout out to whichever audience members sent that idea.

Let's see, I think we have time for about one more question so, let's see.

What are your favorite field guides to learn about the world around you?

Like, trees or birds, et cetera, while you're out escaping?

Harold, would you like to start?

- All right, well.

- I had to have... - So, I'm coming at it from the geological perspective, I get to get a shout out and this was not planned I actually have it sitting right here, "Roadside Geology of Washington" is a book that one of our faculty members Darrel Cowan along with a former one Marli Miller put together, it's fantastic because it uses the road.

So, anywhere you're going, I usually keep it in the car if I'm going someplace and you can, you know, it's at a reasonably accessible level but has enough information, you can really learn something about what you're driving through at any time.

So, that's a field guide I just love.

- Field guides, let's see.

I would say there is a, I'm actually more of a, I like, rather than a field guide, I like having something that kind of, like, immerses me in the place that I'm in.

So, for instance like, the companion to that field guide I guess I like both, the companion to that field guide to me would be like "Animals of the Former World" or something, like a John McPhee book that, you know, narratively explains geology on this trip.

As far as individual field guides for like identification and things like that, I don't have the name on me now, but there are a lot of really great apps that are out there to help you kind of identify things.

Yeah, and then I'll shout out Mountaineers for their, you know, wonderful selection of books, there's just tons that you can dig into there that I think are really great, pretty much on any, any kind of, whether it be foraging or, you know, plant or animal identification, those are all really great.

- Thank you, Ted.

Unfortunately we are about out of time so, thank you again for making time for us, Ted and Harold, really appreciate it.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- Yeah, likewise, it's been a pleasure.

- Yeah, that was so nice to chat with both of you and also a big thank you to all of our viewers for joining us.

New episodes of our new podcast, Crosscut Escapes will be dropping on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts and for more information on Crosscut Escapes go to Crosscut.com/Escapes.

You can also learn more about upcoming Crosscut events at Crosscut.com/Events.

Thank you so much for tuning in.

- Thanks.