- Many of us grew up on the music written by the legendary songwriting duo, Robert and Richard Sherman.

[light piano music] They were famous for many songs, including "A Spoonful of Sugar", "Feed the Birds", and, of course, "Chim Chim Cher-ee", which won an Academy Award.

They also won a Grammy award for the movie, "Mary Poppins".

Richard was born on June 12th, 1928 in New York.

In 1937, his family moved to Beverly Hills.

He and his brother would go on to work with Walt Disney, and the rest is history.

The Sherman Brothers were depicted by actors, B.J.

Novak and Jason Schwartzman in the 2013 film, "Saving Mr. Banks", about the making of the movie, "Mary Poppins".

In 2015, I had the wonderful opportunity to interview Richard Sherman by phone for KVCR Radio.

That interview was then prepared for television using animation.

I hope you enjoy my conversation with the talented composer and songwriter, Richard Sherman.

[mellow music] ♪ ♪ ♪ - [Lillian] Richard Sherman is an award-winning songwriter, who for many years worked as a team with his brother, Robert.

Together, they were Disney.

Some of your best-known writings include songs from "Mary Poppins", "The Jungle Book", "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang", "Winnie the Pooh", and well-known amusement park theme, "It's a Small World".

Now, let me ask you about that.

That was actually for the New York World's Fair.

Is that right?

- [Richard] Actually, yes it was.

Back in 1964, I believe, was the World's Fair and we were asked to come in and write a song that was sort of a unification song where they were gonna salute the children of the world, and it was sponsored by UNICEF.

The concept was that these little groups of animatronic dolls would sing national anthems of the various countries.

And, unfortunately, that is on paper, very brilliant, and in actuality terrible!

(laughter) It became a mess.

So, my brother, Bob and I were staff writers at the Walt Disney Studio, and Walt Disney asked us to come down and see this thing.

And then, we realized what a mess it was.

And, he said, "I need a little simple song "that talks about the small children of the world "are the hope of the future, "and I don't want it to be preachy.

I want it to be kind of a fun song."

And so, Bob and I wrote a gentle little song with a contrapuntal melody that could be played together or separately in various styles and sung in any language.

This was the song that we wrote, and we just thought it would be nice for this ride, (Lillian laughing) never dreaming that it caught on so well that they brought it back to Disneyland.

And now, it's in all the Disney parks, and it's perhaps the most performed song on Earth.

- [Lillian] And, I think it's in everybody's mind when they get there, when they're there, and when they leave and they just can't get it-- - [Richard] Well, I hope that - [Lillian] It's addicting.

- the message comes through.

- Because it is a small world after all, so we should live together in peace and harmony.

That's what the whole idea of the song is, and I hope that people realize that-- They want to either kiss us or kill us for writing that song (he chuckles) because they can't get it out of their heads!

- [Lillian] That's very true.

Let me ask you: how did you come to know Walt Disney?

- [Richard] Oh!

Well, that was because of a little girl named Annette Funicello.

Annette was a Mouseketeer.

- [Lillian] The Mickey Mouse Club?

- [Richard] They were all wonderful, talented kids, and Annette was one of the most loved of all the children on that show.

When the show was over, they wanted to feature her.

She was so popular that they would feature her on records, and she happened to sing a song of ours called "Tall Paul."

And, "Tall Paul" became a huge hit for her, and so we were asked to write more songs for Annette, not knowing that Walt Disney was-- She was his pet.

I mean, he loved her.

And so, little 14-year-old, 15-year-old Annette Funicello became our lucky break because Walt Disney started loving our songs.

He heard a lot of songs we wrote for her, and eventually invited us into the studio to start writing some songs for him and that's how it all started.

- [Lillian] Wow.

Now, Mary Poppins is an all-time favorite of mine, personally.

Will you share with me the experience writing the songs, working with P.L.

Travers, but more specifically also Julie Andrews and my favorite, Dick Van Dyke?

And, just for the record, I love Dick Van Dyke's accent in the movie.

Just for the record!

(laughing) - [Richard] Well?

Dick, you know, he said he never could master that cockney, which he didn't, but he was Dick Van Dyke!

He's unique.

And, he did his own thing and he did it beautifully.

I will say this: working with Julie and Dick was a joy, but the big, big hurdle for Bob and myself was licking that book, getting something out of a series of stories that had no point.

If you read the Mary Poppins books, they're charming, they're brilliant.

It's an inventive character, this wonderful personality of Mary Poppins, and add up to a series of adventures.

But, there is no need for Mary Poppins to come.

There's no need for her to leave.

And, Mrs. Travers was enigmatic.

She never let us in on any reasons.

She said, "oh, you make them up yourself."

So, when Bob and I were given this book, not knowing Mrs. Travers at all, but just knowing the books, our big problem was when we read this book, "let's make a story."

And so, Bob and I sort of took six of the key chapters we thought were very good in the first book.

We were just given the first Mary Poppins book, and we wove them together with the need for Mary Poppins to come.

That was never put in the original books.

There's a dysfunctional family called the Banks family.

And so, we made the father too busy working at the bank to pay attention to his kids.

Their mother was too occupied with her cause; she was a suffragette.

So, she never paid any attention to the kids.

So, Mary Poppins is needed.

And, as soon as we got that, we said, "oh, now "we have a reason to tell these stories, and little life lessons can be learned from it."

So, they're gentle life lessons about, it doesn't take much to give love.

That was all brought out in "Feed The Birds (Tuppence a Bag)".

It doesn't have to do much to do a wonderful thing, to be kind, to be loving.

That was one end.

You have to have a happy attitude about doing things so that a tough job is easy.

So, we did "A Spoonful of Sugar to help the medicine go down".

These were all things that came out of our need to make a storyline.

And, that was one of the things that we built and everything that we came up with when we finally had that meeting with Mrs. Travers, which is dramatized in the recent movie called "Saving Mr. Banks", she despised everything we came up with.

Why?

Because she didn't write it.

- [Lillian] But, could she see what you were trying to do and what your team was trying to do by taking her works?

Could she get there with that or she just wouldn't have anything?

- [Richard] We tried.

We said in a thousand-- "We're not changing your books".

"Your books will always be there.

"We're inspired by the books to do a movie and a movie has to have a plot."

And, she said, "There's no plot.

It's self-realized."

And, we said, "But, people sitting in a chair "have to be glued to that thing "to find out what's gonna happen.

"You have to have a climax, a denouement.

You have to have the moment."

And, she just didn't like it.

She just didn't like it.

The only thing that she ever liked, and we dramatized that in the movie, "Saving Mr. Banks", she liked the fact that the father mends the kite and flies it with the kids.

That she liked.

- [Lillian] In the rest of the world, you got everything right in "Mary Poppins"!

- [Richard] Well, that's very kind of you, because we were very proud of it and I know Walt loved it.

He loved the picture and he was very proud of it.

But, now, you talk about Julie Andrews and Dick Van Dyke?

In my opinion, they were born to play these parts!

We were having a heck of a time trying to figure out how to cast Mary Poppins because that's obviously a key character in the whole piece.

And, we were looking at different actors and they were all wonderful actresses.

And, one night, I happened to be watching the Ed Sullivan Show, and Julie was on the show with Richard Burton, doing a song from Camelot called "What Do the Simple Folk Do?"

And, as soon as I saw her start to sing that thing, I said, "my God, that's Mary Poppins!

"She's fantastic and she's perfect.

"And, look.

She whistles too!

(laughing) Because we were gonna do a whistling thing with "Spoonful of Sugar".

And so, I called my brother and he said, "I can't talk to you now.

I'm watching somebody that's perfect for Mary Poppins."

I said, "That's what I'm callin' you about!"

It was while she was doing it.

He said, "oh, she's perfect."

The next day we came in and we saw Don, Don DaGradi was our collaborator.

He was the guy that was key writer on the show, along with Bill Walsh, who wrote the brilliant dialogue.

And so, Don said, "Did you see?"

I said yes.

And then, we spoke to Walsh and he saw it.

We all were thrilled.

We were gonna tell Walt and his secretary, Tommie Wilck said, "Don't tell Walt.

"He's going to New York.

I'm gonna have him see Camelot.

I'm buying tickets for it and he'll make up his own mind."

So, believe it or not, we were all sold with Julie before Walt ever saw her do Camelot.

But, he was so excited when he saw her, he went backstage afterwards and invited her to come out and that's how it all started.

- [Lillian] Wow.

And, did you write a particular song for her in "Mary Poppins"?

- [Richard] Yes.

- I thought I read something.

What was that?

- [Richard] Well, actually, we had written a song called "Through the Eyes of Love."

- Right.

- [Richard] And, it was a very beautiful ballad.

And, what it said was the exact same thing that we say in "Spoonful of Sugar": reality is what you want it to be.

You can find beauty in almost anything if you try hard enough.

And, that was, in a sense, what it was all about.

If you look at things through the eyes of love, they become beautiful.

You can see in an ordinary person a beautiful, beautiful human being if you look at their soul.

It was a very beautiful ballad, and when she heard the score, she loved everything, really, truly.

But, she confessed to Walt "That 'Eyes of Love' song?

"I don't know.

It isn't in the spirit of Poppins.

You should have something more crisp."

It was her decision.

And so, Walt told us what Julie Andrews had said, and we said, "Well?

Okay."

We were disappointed.

We went, "oh gosh, she didn't like our best song?"

So, we said, "Okay, we'll write something else."

So, we said, "Let's tell the same story in a different way with a slogan."

And, we were trying to think of what kind of a slogan?

Like "An apple a day keeps the doctor away".

And we just were thinking- and Bob's son came home from school one day, and Jeff, his name is- and Jeff said, "Dad, we had the Salk vaccine.

We had the polio vaccine today."

And Bob said, "Did it hurt?"

He said, "Oh no.

They put the vaccine on a cube of sugar and we took it down.

And, it was like candy and it was good."

And so, Bob came in the next day, he said, "I got a title.

I got a title!"

And, I said, "What is it?"

He said, "Listen to this": "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."

I said, "Oh, that's terrible!

(laughs) "No, wait!

It's great, it's great!

It says it all without having to lay it on with a trowel."

And, that's when we said, "Okay, great."

And, we started working from that.

And, it was just a lot of fun.

And then, knowing Mary Poppins did things that you didn't expect, for example, she slid up banisters; things like that.

So, we said, "Well, every time the word 'down' happens in the song, we'll go up with the tune.

(he sings) ♪ "Just a spoonful of sugar ♪ ♪ "helps the medicine go down!"

♪ [high voice] And then, he said, "Oh yes!

That's it, that's it!

That's Mary Poppins."

- [Lillian] Wow.

- [Richard] And, that's how we wrote the song.

- [Lillian] How wonderful.

Thank you so much for sharing that story.

In the movie, "Saving Mr. Banks", did you feel it captured it?

It was very close?

- [Richard] Oh, definitely.

I worked on the show as a consultant, and I had the pleasure of working with Kelly Marcel, the writer, and gave her a lot of these stories that I'm telling you.

And, she incorporated a lot of those things, the little incidents into the screenplay-- - Into the movie.

Right!

- [Richard] And, it was very true.

She was very difficult.

One day, she marched in and says, "I'm off the color red.

I don't want red in the picture."

I mean, come on!

That's bananas, isn't it?

It's crazy.

(laughter) And, we said, "Well, Mrs. Travers?

For God's sake!

"The Union Jack has red in it, "the post office boxes are red, "the buses are red, everything is red.

What's the matter?

And, she said, "I'm off red.

I don't want red."

And, we couldn't talk to her.

I mean, she was just-?

Believe me, make up your own mind, but she was not exactly like a normal person.

- [Lillian] She wasn't the most friendly as it appeared in "Saving Mr. Banks".

Wasn't open-minded by any means, was she?

- [Richard] No, she was closed-minded.

She almost felt as if her words were the words of the Lord and nothing else could change.

- [Lillian] Right.

- [Richard] And, I think one of the reasons why she disliked our story so much is because we made the father a human being, and not just a fellow that went to the bank and made money and came home at night.

Because, her father was a-?

Let's say, "troubled" human being, who was a drunkard, and he died when she was eight years old.

And, she had this father fixation about, 'he was just wonderful.'

And so, we said-- We didn't know any of this, of course, but we said, "In order to have a story, "let's have something wrong in the family.

"The father's too busy making money and everything to pay attention to his children."

So, we just made that up so we could have a story.

And, she resented it and she never explained why or anything.

She just said she hated it.

- [Lillian] Now, did she appreciate it after she saw millions of people love the movie?

Was that any different?

- That's a good question.

I'm sure she didn't!

(he laughs) - [Lillian] Oh, wow.

- [Richard] I'm sure she felt we made money off of her Mary Poppins and we distorted the reality of Mary Poppins, because in her books, that's the "real" Mary Poppins.

- Oh.

- Although, thunderous amounts of people, including librarians (he laughs) in schools, loved our movie.

They said, "no, but it's not exactly the book."

I said, "yes, it isn't the book because the book, she was a vinegar puss!

(Lillian laughs) She wasn't a lovable, sweet, wonderful lady who sang songs and everything.

She didn't do those things.

And so, basically, we made up kind of a fun character.

She was fun.

Still kind of prim and proper and did her thing but, yeah, it was a different world.

- [Lillian] Then I think in the movie, "Saving Mr. Banks", I think she nailed the character.

- [Richard] Emma Thompson!

- Yes, yes.

- She was wonderful.

- She was wonderful.

I thought she-- - One of the best actresses in the business.

- [Lillian] Yeah, she did a dynamite job.

Dick Van Dyke; Wasn't one of the songs that he sang that won the Academy Award?

- [Richard] Oh, yes!

"Chim Chim Cher-ee."

He's the one that did it.

And, that again, was one of those wonderful things.

There's a chapter in one of the later books of "Mary Poppins" that Don had read.

We hadn't read it.

And, it was a chimney sweep walking down the street, and Mary Poppins shakes hands with him and a little soot gets onto her fingers and the children say, "Ooh!

You got a little soot from the chimney sweep."

She said, "Don't you know it's luck when you shake with a sweep?"

And so, basically, Don drew a picture of a chimney sweep walking down the street whistling, and underneath the picture he put in print.

He said, "It's luck when you shake with a sweep."

One day, Bob and I walked into Don's office and we were talking about a point in the story, what we were working on, and we saw this picture.

He said, "What is this?"

He said, "Oh, there was this "charming little character that is a chimney sweep and they shake hands."

And we said, "My God!

What a great idea for a song.

We'd like to write a chimney sweep song."

So, we created this song called "Chim Chim Cher-ee", which is sort of playing with the word 'chimney.'

And, it was a kind of a fun song; we liked it.

And, Walt heard it and he said, "You know something?

"We have to make Bert, who was a sidewalk artist, "a jack-of-all-trades.

- Yes!

- "One day he's a chimney sweep, "some days he's a sidewalk artist.

"Some days he's a seller of kites- "because we're gonna have a kite sequence- and some days he's just a rhymer."

In the beginning he sells rhyming and he's a one-man band.

- [Lillian] One-man band!

- [Richard] A one-man band.

This is all Walt Disney's dreams.

Walt Disney was a genius and nobody can ever take it away from him.

He was great.

He would take a good idea and make it great.

So, Walt truly created Bert, because Bert was just a one little incidental character in one sequence, and Walt made Bert a jack-of-all-trades.

And so, he was like Mary Poppins' earthly counterpoint.

And, that was what it all was about.

We created Bert for the picture.

- [Lillian] Right.

And I just can't see, as I think of many actors throughout the many decades, anybody else but Dick Van Dyke in his long, long-legged-- his big, huge smile.

I can't see anyone else having played that role any better or anyone else in it.

- [Richard] Well, I totally agree with you.

I think he was superb.

And, what about that incredible dance ability?

- Right!

- He's not a trained dancer, and yet he could do everything that those incredibly agile dancers did in the movie.

He was just a wonderful, wonderful, all-around talent.

He sang beautifully; he acted beautifully.

And, it was all his heart, and he also danced incredibly well.

I mean, it was just-- He's a remarkable guy.

I think we had two of the greatest people at that time in the world doing those two parts.

And, of course, the picture is beloved and I'm very proud of it.

It's a high watermark in our lives.

It was the doorway to our whole career, listed a litany of pieces, but they all happened subsequent to "Mary Poppins".

- [Lillian] And, I think children in decades to come will enjoy the music and the story of "Mary Poppins".

So, thank you so much for that.

I want to ask you a little bit; so many wonderful songs for adults and children are enjoyed, regardless if they won awards that you've written, and, of course, many of them did, or either nominated or did win awards.

Who were you writing for?

Were you writing for children?

Were you writing-?

Who were you writing for other than Mr. Disney?

Who did you have in mind?

- No.

For many, many people.

But when we're writing a song, we're writing for the character.

When we're writing a particularly a story song, we're writing to describe a personality, to describe a situation, to describe a place, a time.

All these things are part and parcel of what we do.

And, what we try to do is make it as good as it can be for that particular story.

And, we never actually-- we're thinking about, "Well, which is gonna be the money song?

Which is gonna go out and make all the things?"

We never ever gave that a thought.

All we did was try to perfect a storyline and to do it with songs that people will enjoy listening to or humming themselves.

- [Lillian] And, of the songs that you've written, do you have a favorite that stays in your mind?

Because you've written so many, and I know that's kind of a cliche question to even ask.

But, just wondering, is there something in your heart that stays with you, like "Feed the Birds" was for Walt Disney?

- [Richard] It is not a cliche question.

It's an excellent question.

And, you know, if you have 500 or 600 children, (he chuckles) who's your favorite child?

- [Lillian] Exactly!

- It's very impossible to give you a total answer, but I'll say this.

One of the most significant songs in my life was a song that we did for Mary Poppins called "Feed the Birds (Tuppence a Bag)."

It says a lot.

It says, it doesn't take much to give love.

We never used those words in the song, but that's what it says.

It says it doesn't take very much.

Tuppence, which is two pennies; it's nothing.

And, "buying a bag of crumbs."

It has nothing to do with buying bags of crumbs, it has to do with a little kindness, a kind thought, giving love to your kids, taking them out, fly a kite with them.

Something like that.

That's what a tuppence is.

And, all these meanings, we sort of try to pour it into the music and lyrics of this song.

And, when Walt first heard it, when we were just fledglings- before we actually were on the staff- and he heard that song.

He said, "Play it again."

You know?

So, we played it again.

He said, "That's the whole story, isn't it?

In a nutshell?"

Said, "That's right, Walt.

That's right."

And he said, "Well, how'd you like to work here?"

And, he hired us that day.

- [Lillian] Wow.

- [Richard] So, I think that's got to be the favorite song.

- [Lillian] Let me ask.

You joined Disney's team again, 'cause you were there in the early years.

And then, in the '70s you came back with "The Aristocats", "Bedknobs and Broomsticks", "Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh".

Did you ever really leave Disney?

- [Richard] No, I'm still there.

I'm still working for Disney.

I do a lot of things.

We did a stage version of "Jungle Book" in Chicago and hope to get that up again in a while.

I'm also working on "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" as a stage musical.

So, there are a number of projects that I'm working on very much with Disney.

- [Lillian] So, good.

That leads me into my next question.

Over the years you've written for motion pictures, television shows, theme parks, and for stage musicals.

Is it all the same for you, or is there a different mindset when you're writing for the different media outlets?

- [Richard] Oh no, no.

It's all the same thing.

The best possible song for the best possible situation.

And, give it everything you've got every time, out of the bag.

If it's a little ditty, a little trivial song, or if it's a heartrending ballad, give it everything you got.

- [Lillian] Regardless what the out-- where it's gonna be.

- [Richard] Absolutely.

And, I have no different mindset when I'm writing for stage, television, animated film or live action.

- [Lillian] Got it.

Was it Walt Disney who brought music to animation, thereby introducing musical scores to children at an early age?

Because, many times- - [Richard] Oh, my God.

Yes!

- we hear this music- - He's the one that actually did "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs".

- Right.

- Think about it.

What a remarkable landmark that was.

Great score, great songs, wonderful, wonderful animation; incredible characters.

A great story.

Wonderful.

- [Lillian] Do you think the children really understood that they're hearing these orchestras and really understanding orchestra music and thinking they've never heard that, but they've been listening to it so long in animation that it's just-- They're learning about orchestra music through these children's animated movies?

- [Richard] Well, I think they're getting a sample of really great, great music.

And then as they get older, I think they start realizing, "This is actually symphony orchestras.

These are wonderful musicians playing this stuff."

It's all like an "opening the door."

In the beginning, it's like a gestalt.

They just hear it in one and they think that's all the same thing.

But then all of a sudden they realize, it's not only the singer who's singing words and singing to you, but it's this wonderful background music that's coming at them, and they realize that this is special.

And, I think it's a discovery thing unless somebody points it out to them.

But, otherwise it's just a natural discovery as they mature.

- [Lillian] Is there a song out there you still want to write that you want to get out?

Is there something bubbling in your head that you're sustaining?

- [Richard] Yes, there is.

There always is.

I mean, I don't think I'll ever quit.

I love writing and I love writing songs, if I can be pleased with them.

And, I'm always working on one project or another.

I have another show I'm working on with another fellow, and I'm very proud of that.

And, I'm working on some instrumentals.

I've done a number of instrumental albums.

It's just fun.

I do a lot of work and I certainly enjoy my work.

It's like I never worked!

It's my hobby.

I just love doin' it.

- [Lillian] Well, Mr. Sherman?

I want to thank you for all the wonderful music you've provided our nation and the world, and your brother's music, as well; For such great entertainment and time today to allow me to ask you so many questions that I've wondered for a very long time.

Thank you so much.

- [Richard] You're welcome and thank you.

Bye-bye!

- [Lillian] Bye-bye.

[mellow music] - [Lillian] Richard Sherman died on May 25th, 2024.

Dick Van Dyke shared a short video on his social media with Richard Sherman playing the piano and Mr. Van Dyke singing by his side.

Richard Sherman has left a musical legacy for all of us to enjoy for years to come.

Thanks for watching, and bye for now.

♪ [mellow music] ♪ ♪ [music fades]