>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS AND DUAL NATIONALS LEAVE GAZA.

AND MORE DEAD AND WOUNDED, AFTER THE JABALYA REFUGEE CAMP IS ROCKED BY A SECOND BLAST.

I SPEAK TO FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL TOM WARRICK ABOUT THE LESSONS OF POST-WAR IRAQ.

>>> PLUS, AZERBAIJAN TOOK OVER THE ENCLAVE OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH LAST MONTH.

WHY THE CHAIRMAN OF MODERNA IS SOUNDING THE ALARM.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, DEMOCRACY WILL BE ON THE BALLOT IN 2024, SAYS FORMER CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER, WHO TELLS MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT BEING ONE OF ONLY TWO REPUBLICANS ON THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WE BEGIN IN RAFAH, EGYPT, WHERE A TRICKLE OF CIVILIANS IS BEING ALLOWED TO LEAVE GAZA FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

AT LEAST 110 FOREIGN PASSPORT HOLDERS HAVE LEFT SO FAR, ACCORDING TO PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS.

81 SERIOUSLY INJURED PALESTINIANS ARE ALSO BEING FERRIED ACROSS BY AMBULANCE FOR TREATMENT IN EGYPT.

THIS CRUCIAL STEP COMES AS THE RESULT OF A DEAL MEDIATED BY QATAR, INVOLVING ISRAEL, HAMAS, THE U.S., AND EGYPT.

BUT INSIDE GAZA, FOR THE SECOND DAY IN A ROW, A MASSIVE BLAST HAS HIT THE JABALYA REFUGEE CAMP, CAUSING CATASTROPHIC DAMAGE.

WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION OF JUST HOW MUCH CARE IS BEING TAKEN TO AVOID CIVILIAN DEATHS?

THE IDF HAS NOT YET COMMENTED ON TODAY'S BLAST, BUT AFTER YESTERDAY'S MASS CASUALTY AIR STRIKES CAUSED GLOBAL OUTRAGE, ISRAEL IS DEFENDING THE ATTACKS, SAYING THAT IT KILLED A MAJOR HAMAS COMMANDER WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK ON ISRAEL, WHICH LEFT 1,400 PEOPLE DEAD AND HUNDREDS WHO WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE.

CORRESPONDENT SALMA ABDELAZIZ HAS THIS REPORT, AND A WARNING, SOME OF THE IMAGES, OF COURSE, ARE VERY DISTURBING.

>> Reporter: DUST AND DEBRIS FILL THE AIR AFTER AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE.

"AMBULANCE, AMBULANCE" CALLS THE MAN CARRYING THE CHILD.

THESE ARE THE MOMENTS AFTER THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S ATTACKS ON THE JABALYA CAMP IN GAZA.

EVERYONE IS DISORIENTED AND TERRIFIED.

AND THIS IS THE RESULT.

SEVERAL CITY BLOCKS LEVELED IN AN INSTANT.

THE SCENE IS APOCALYPTIC.

SURVIVORS DESPERATELY DIG FOR THEIR LOVED ONES WITH BARE HANDS.

ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS TARGETING A HAMAS COMMANDER, HIDING IN THIS DENSELY POPULATED RESIDENTIAL AREA.

AN IDF SPOKESPERSON CALLED THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS A TRAGEDY OF WAR.

THAT TRAGEDY TEARING APART THIS COMMUNITY.

NO ONE YET KNOWS HOW MANY STILL LIE UNDER THE RUINS.

SHORTLY AFTER THE BOMBS FELL, COMS IN THE ENCLAVE WERE MOSTLY SEVERED.

BUT ONE CAMERAMAN WAS ABLE TO POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE ANGUISH IS HEARTWRENCHING.

THE VICTIMS, SMALL AND AFRAID.

MOMS AND DADS WILL BURY THEIR CHILDREN.

"ALL THREE OF MY CHILDREN ARE DEAD," THIS FATHER SCREAMS.

"ALL THREE. "

ENTIRE FAMILIES ARE WIPED OUT.

THIS MAN HOLDS UP THE NAME OF 15 RELATIVES KILLED IN THE AIR STRIKE.

"MY WHOLE FAMILY, INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE DEAD," HE SAYS.

"TOTAL DESTRUCTION.

OUR WHOLE BUILDING IS GONE.

20 STORIES.

THIS IS A MASSACRE."

AT A NEARBY HOSPITAL, THE CARNAGE IS ON DISPLAY.

THE BODIES KEEP PILING UP.

WITH HER DEAD CHILDREN AT HER FEET, THIS MOTHER PRAYS FOR STRENGTH.

MANY IN THIS FORSAKEN ENCLAVE FEEL THEY HAVE NO ONE BUT GOD LEFT.

>> THAT WAS CORRESPONDENT SALMA ABDELAZIZ REPORTING THERE.

AND THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN RAMALLAH SAYS 8,700 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

AN IDF COMMANDER SAYS THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS AT THE GATES OF GAZA CITY.

AMERICAN OFFICIALS ARE PUBLICLY WARNING ISRAEL TO LEARN FROM THE U.S.

EXPERIENCE IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ, AND EVEN LIBYA.

BOTTOM LINE, YOU NEED A PLAN FOR WAR AND FOR THE POST-WAR.

IN 2002, THOMAS WARRICK HEADED UP POST-WAR IRAQ PLANNING FOR THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT.

ONLY THOSE PLANS WERE SHELVED, WITH DISASTROUS RESULTS.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C. THOMAS WARRICK, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED TO HAVE A POST-WAR PLAN, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ACTUALLY DISCUSSED RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU THINK THAT -- WELL, TELL ME, FROM WHAT PERSPECTIVE, YOU SPEAK.

>> AH, SO, IN THE POST-WAR PLANS THE STATE DEPARTMENT, A LOT OF WORK WENT INTO A PERIOD OF MORE THAN A YEAR TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT PROBLEMS WE WOULD HAVE AND HOW WE WOULD OVERCOME THOSE.

UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN U.S.

TROOPS WENT IN, THEY WENT IN WITH A DIFFERENT PLAN, ONE THAT WAS NOWHERE NEAR ADEQUATE FOR WHAT WAS REQUIRED.

THE CHALLENGE NOW IS THAT ISRAEL, THE UNITED STATES, WESTERN ALLIES LIKE THE UNITED KINGDOM, GERMANY, MIDDLE EAST COUNTRIES LIKE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, SAUDI ARABIA AND OTHERS, ALL NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT EXACTLY WHO WILL DO WHAT, AND I CAN ALMOST ASSURE YOU THAT THE PLANNING IS WAY BEHIND WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE AN ENORMOUS EFFORT TO PUT TOGETHER WHAT'S REQUIRED TO HELP TRY TO BUILD TOWARDS A BETTER FUTURE FOR ISRAELIS, FOR PALESTINIANS, AND FOR THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.

>> I JUST WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM "THE LEADING DAILY" THERE, IT SAID IN THE PAPER, THE FIRST PHASE OF THE WAR REQUIRED GETTING OVER THE SHOCK FROM THE CATASTROPHE AND FIRING ON GAZA FROM THE AIR, SEA, AND LAND.

THE GROUND ACTION WAS THE SECOND PHASE.

ARRANGING FOR WHO WILL CONTROL GAZA IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE THIRD STAGE.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE SAYS, THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE A COHERENT PLAN ON THIS ISSUE.

AND IT'S NO WAY TO EXPLAIN HOW THE SECOND PHASE LEADS TO THE THIRD.

SO, WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

AND WHAT ARE THE DANGERS, FROM YOUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE?

>> WELL, SO, IT SOUNDS LIKE THE ISRAELIS ARE GOING THROUGH EXACTLY THE SAME PROCESS THAT THE UNITED STATES DID IN 2002-2003.

THERE ARE MILITARY PLANS, THOSE HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED BY MILITARY PLANNERS, WHOSE CAREERS ARE DEVOTED TO THIS KIND OF THING, BUT PRIOR TO THE TERRORIST ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7, NO ONE THOUGHT SOMEBODY ELSE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE OF GAZA.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS, THIS IS NOW EXTREMELY URGENT.

AND IF THE SACRIFICES AND THE DESTRUCTION ARE TO HAVE ANYTHING GOOD COME OUT OF THEM, IT'S ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT THAT GOVERNMENTS DEVOTE THE RESOURCES AND PLAN FOR THE TIME IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO BUILD SOMETHING BETTER.

THIS WAS A CHALLENGE THE UNITED STATES DID NOT DO WELL IN IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN.

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DIDN'T DO WELL IN BOSNIA OR KOSOVO, SO, EVERY LESSON WE'VE LEARNED TELLS US THAT THE PLANNING FOR POST-WAR GAZA NEEDS TO BE ACCELERATED, MOVED INTO HIGH GEAR AND THERE REALLY NEED TO BE VERY CLOSE, DETAILED DISCUSSIONS AMONG ALL OF THE GOVERNMENTS IN QUESTION.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO GET TO SOME OF THE DETAILS SPECIFICALLY FOR GAZA AND, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE SOME KIND OF PEACE AND LIVEABLE SITUATION AFTER THIS, BUT I DO WANT TO PRESS YOU ON -- ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE I REMEMBER COVERING NOT JUST THE IRAQ WAR OF 2003, BUT THE POST-WAR.

THE WAR WAS PRETTY SIMPLE, IN MILITARY TERMS.

AND DIDN'T CAUSE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CASUALTIES ON ANY SIDE.

THE POST-WAR WAS SHAMBOLIC.

WE WERE THERE, WE WITNESSED THE RISE OF THE INSURGENCY WHICH LED TO ISIS, IT WAS DENIED BY, YOU KNOW, THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION, DONALD RUMSFELD, WE WITNESSED THE LOOTING, WHICH WAS THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, SHOW OF THE COLLAPSE OF CIVIL ORDER.

BUT WHAT WAS YOUR PLAN?

YOU'D BEEN HATCHING IT AND WRITING IT IN THE PENTAGON.

WHY WAS THAT NOT USED?

>> WELL, THERE WAS AN INTERAGENCY DISPUTE ABOUT WHO WAS GOING TO RUN IRAQ AFTER THE WAR, AND THIS CAME TO DOMINATE DISCUSSIONS SO THAT ALL OF THE PRACTICAL STEPS GOT PUT OFF UNTIL LATER.

AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT WE'RE SEEING HAPPENING TODAY HAS ITS PARALLELS TO WHAT HAPPENED IN 2002-2003.

THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION GOING ON ABOUT THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN, THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS, EFFORTS TO FREE THE HOSTAGES.

THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

AND THEN, AS WE SAW BACK IN 2002, THE ISSUE OF POST-WAR PLANNING GETS THREE MINUTES AT THE END OF AN HOUR AND A HALF MEETING.

THAT SIMPLY IS NOT WHAT IS GOING TO WORK.

AND THESE EFFORTS NEED TO BE AMPLIFIED.

YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO HAVE DETAILED DISCUSSIONS.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, SHOULD COMMIT TO TRYING TO WORK CLOSELY, NOT JUST WITH ISRAELIS, BUT OBVIOUSLY WITH ISRAELIS, AS WELL, THERE HAVE TO BE DETAILED DISCUSSIONS.

SOME FORCE IS GOING TO HAVE TO REPLACE THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES TO PREVENT STRATEGIC LOOTING IN GAZA AFTER THE SHOOTING STOPS.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN SARAJEVO, AS YOU REPORTED AT THE TIME, AND IT HAPPENED IN BAGHDAD, AS YOU ALSO REPORTED AT THE TIME.

SO, EVERYONE KNOWS, THIS IS A REAL RISK.

SOMEBODY HAS TO FIGURE OUT WHO WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING THAT KIND OF SECURITY.

THE LIST GOES ON.

THERE ARE LITERALLY DOZENS OF ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE THE SUBJECT OF DETAILED PLANS WHERE EVERYONE SAYS, WE ALL AGREE THAT YOUR COUNTRY WILL BE IN CHARGE, YOUR AUTHORITY WILL BE SET UP, WE WILL PROVIDE RESOURCES, WE WILL PROVIDE HIGHLY TRAINED PERSONNEL, ALL OF THIS NEEDS TO BE PUT IN PLACE NOW, BECAUSE WHEN THE SHOOTING STOPS, IT'S TOO LATE TO TRY TO PUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT TOGETHER AND HAVE IT WORK.

>> SO, WE'VE HEARD MORE AND MORE COMING OUT FROM THE U.S., SECRETARY OF STATE IS QUOTED AS SAYING, YOU KNOW, A REVITALIZED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, IN OTHER WORDS, MAHMOUD ABBAS'S ORGANIZATION IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK SHOULD BE THE AUTHORITY AS IT WAS BEFORE, BEFORE HAMAS, IN GAZA.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S CREDIBLE AT THE MOMENT, GIVEN HOW UNPOPULAR HERE IS, HOW ELDERLY HE IS, HOW MUCH CORRUPTION THERE IS, HOW HE IS NOT EVEN ALLOWED, YOU KNOW, AN ELECTION FOR THE LAST, WHO KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS.

AND -- IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO REVITALIZE THE CURRENT P.A.?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY NOT BY WISHING IT TO BE SO.

THERE WOULD NEED TO BE SOME VERY PRACTICAL PLANS PUT TOGETHER FOR HOW TO -- TO, IN EFFECT, FIX THE PROBLEMS OF THE CURRENT PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

HOW TO ADDRESS ITS CORRUPTION CHALLENGES.

AND HOW TO ADDRESS A GAZAN POPULATION, MANY OF WHOM REJECTED THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY YEARS AGO, IN THE ONE AND ONLY TIME GAZA HAS HELD ELECTIONS.

SO, WHAT WE'RE SEEING, I THINK, IS -- PEOPLE ARE AT THE STAGE RIGHT NOW THAT THEY ARE HOPING FOR SOLUTIONS, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE FOLLOWED UP BY VERY SUBSTANTIVE, VERY DETAILED PLANNING, DOWN TO WHO WILL PRECISELY TAKE OVER, FOR INSTANCE, MAKING THE WATER AND ELECTRICITY TURN BACK ON.

ISRAELI OFFICIALS KNOW YOU CAN'T SIMPLY FLIP A SWITCH IN GAZA, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS CHALLENGED BY IN IRAQ ARE ALL GOING TO COME BACK IN GAZA IN SOME SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY, AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY VITAL THAT THE DETAILED PLANNING OF HOW TO ADDRESS THESE CHALLENGES NEEDS TO BE ACCELERATED.

IT HAS JUST STARTED.

AND THE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS WE'VE SEEN FROM THE SECRETARY ARE GOOD FOR THE INITIAL ROUND, IT'S THE HARD WORK THAT NEEDS TO COME VERY QUICKLY THAT IS THE REAL CHALLENGE HERE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE THE EFFECT OF ESSENTIALLY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND SORT OF, EVEN, YOU KNOW, WITH ISRAELI FACILITIES, OF THE P.A.

GOING TO GAZA?

WOULD THAT -- WOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

THE PRACTICAL CHALLENGE OF PUTTING TOGETHER AN INTERNATIONAL AUTHORITY, YOU HAVE TO FIND SOMEBODY TO LEAD IT.

YOU HAVE TO FIND BUDGET OFFICERS WHO ARE GOING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE OFFICES ARE GOING TO BE, HOW MANY VEHICLES DO YOU NEED, HOW DO YOU HANDLE COMMUNICATIONS WHEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN GAZA HAS BEEN, IN MANY WAYS, DISRUPTED OR DESTROYED?

ALL OF THESE PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS ACTUALLY TAKE TIME TO PUT INTO PLACE.

I'M SURE THAT NO GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD BUDGETED FOR SUCH AN AUTHORITY, AND YET, IT WILL CLEARLY COST MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

AND THE TIME TO PUT THIS TOGETHER IS EXTREMELY BRIEF.

UNDOUBTEDLY, THERE WILL BE FIGHTING GOING ON IN SOME PARTS OF GAZA WHEN OTHER PARTS OF GAZA NEED A CIVILIAN AUTHORITY.

AND EVEN IF THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN TAKES MONTHS, HAVING THESE CIVILIAN GOVERNANCE AND SECURITY ISSUES WORKED OUT REALLY DOES NEED TO HAPPEN WITHIN A VERY SHORT NUMBER OF WEEKS.

SO, THIS IS DIFFICULT.

BUT IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

AND IT REALLY WILL TAKE, THOUGH, SOME EXTRAORDINARY EFFORTS IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO PUT THIS TOGETHER IN TIME FOR IT TO BE THERE WHEN IT'S NEEDED.

>> SO, WE ALL KNOW FROM OUR HISTORY BOOKS THAT THERE WAS A MARTIAL PLAN, YOU KNOW, THE LIBERATORS OF EUROPE AND JAPAN, THE PEOPLE WHO DEFIED THE NAZIS AND THE JAPANESE AXIS, REBUILT THOSE SOCIETIES IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM STRONG AND PROSPEROUS AND DEMOCRATIC AND SAFE AND SECURE.

I GIVE THIS WHOLE LEADUP, BECAUSE THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER AND HIS GOVERNMENT IS PORTRAYING THIS BATTLE IN WORLD WAR II TERMS.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF RHETORIC ABOUT WORLD WAR II.

BUT CERTAIN OFFICIALS, THERE ARE REPORTS OF A FORMER HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PALESTINIAN AFFAIRS IN ISRAEL'S MILITARY, INTELLIGENCE SAYS IT'S NOT LIKE BERLIN '45, WHEN YOU STUCK A FLAG AND THAT WAS THAT.

YOU KNOW, SO, ALL OF THIS RHETORIC, FOR THE WAR, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY -- IT DOESN'T REALLY COMPUTE, DOES IT, WITH WHAT'S NECESSARY?

>> SO, THE UNITED STATES STARTED PLANNING FOR POST-WAR GERMANY IN EARLY 1943, AND FOR JAPAN, A LITTLE BIT LATER THAT YEAR.

THAT TOOK TWO YEARS.

WE DON'T HAVE TWO YEARS.

BUT I DO HAVE TO SAY THAT THE SUCCESS OF GERMANY AND JAPAN TODAY, WHICH, AS YOU SAY, ARE DEMOCRATIC, PROSPEROUS, AT PEACE, ARE SECURE, AND ARE INTEGRATED INTO THEIR RESPECTIVE REGIONAL DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCES, REALLY IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT COULD COME OUT OF THIS.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO UNDERESTIMATE HOW HARD THIS IS GOING TO BE.

I CERTAINLY THINK THAT IT WILL BE IMPORTANT THAT THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES COMMIT THE RESOURCES, THE PEOPLE, AND THE ATTENTION.

THE THING WE LEARNED FROM IRAQ IS THAT IF YOU TRY TO DO POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION FAST AND ON THE CHEAP, THAT'S HOW YOU GET STUCK IN FOREVER WARS.

THAT'S HOW YOU END UP NEVER HAVING A SECURE PEACE.

AND THE SACRIFICES OF ISRAELIS IN THE TERRORIST ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7 AND THE SUFFERING THAT WE SAW IN YOUR VIDEO THAT INTRODUCED THIS SEGMENT, REALLY OUGHT TO MOTIVATE US TO COMMIT THE RESOURCES, THE TIME, THE PEOPLE, TO MAKE THIS COME OUT BETTER FOR ISRAELIS, PALESTINIANS, AND THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.

>> YOU KNOW, THIS BEGS THE QUESTION, DOESN'T IT, DOES THE ACTUAL CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY, LET'S FACE IT, IT'S A GOVERNMENT WHERE SETTLERS AND SETTLER LEADERS ARE ESSENTIALLY -- I MEAN, THEY CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY KEEP THE PRIME MINISTER IN POWER.

SO, IT BEGS THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THERE ACTUALLY IS ANY WILL TO HAVE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, A FREE PALESTINIAN STATE THAT LIVES SECURELY AND REBUILT AND PROPERLY WITH ITS DIGNITY AND ITS RIGHTS ALONGSIDE ISRAEL.

>> WELL, CERTAINLY ALL THE ISRAELIS THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO HAVE ALL INDICATED THERE WILL BE A POLITICAL RECKONING, AND WHILE PEOPLE SAY, IN THE PAST, ISRAEL HAS MOVED TO RIGHT TO AFTER TERRORIST ATTACKS, THIS IS CLEARLY SOMETHING OF AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MAGNITUDE.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE LIKELY TO SEE IS A NUMBER OF EFFORTS TO TRY TO RETHINK THIS, BUT RIGHT NOW, IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT, ISRAELIS ARE NOT PREPARED TO EVEN THINK OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A MARTIAL PLAN.

BUT FRANKLY, IF YOU HAD ASKED BRITAIN AND AMERICA IN 1942, WOULD YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD BE IN YOUR NATIONAL INTEREST TO COMMIT THE KINDS OF RESOURCES THAT YOU ENDED UP SPENDING TO MAKE GERMANY INTO A DEMOCRATIC AND PEACEFUL COUNTRY?

MOST PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT TO BE COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE.

AND YET, THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE DECIDED WE SHOULD DO.

I WON'T PREDICT THE PATH THAT ISRAELIS WILL CHOOSE TO TAKE, BUT I DO HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WITH HELP FROM THE UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, EUROPEAN, AND MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES, THIS IS AN HISTORIC OPPORTUNITY TO RECOGNIZE THAT A RESET IS IN ORDER.

I JUST WON'T PREDICT WHEN AND HOW THAT WILL ACTUALLY OCCUR.

>> OKAY.

THOMAS WARRICK, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

REALLY INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT PERSPECTIVE.

>>> VIOLENCE, AS WE SAID, IS SPILLING OUT ONTO THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, WITH MORE THAN 100 PALESTINIANS KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th THERE.

U.S. OFFICIALS HAVE DESCRIBED GROWING SETTLER VIOLENCE AS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE AND ARE CALLING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY RUNS THE WEST BANK, AS WE SAID, BUT GETS WEAKER BY THE DAY.

THE MAIN FATAH PARTY FAMOUSLY LOST THE LAST ELECTIONS THAT BROUGHT HAMAS TO POWER IN GAZA.

SABRI SAIDAM IS A SENIOR OFFICIAL FROM THAT PARTY AND JOINING ME FROM RAMALLAH.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN YOU JUST TELL ME THE STATE OF SECURITY OR INSECURITY AND WHETHER YOUR AUTHORITY HAS THE ABILITY TO TAMP DOWN THE VIOLENCE THAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

SURELY, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AT LARGE DON'T FEEL SECURE IN ANY WAY.

THE CONTINUATION OF HOSTILITIES IN GAZA AND THE SUPPRESSION THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ARE FEELING NOW IS EXTREMELY IMMENSE, AND THE PRIORITY SHOULD BE WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THAT THIS MADNESS IS STOPPED AND A NEW REALITY IS BROUGHT IN.

WITHOUT THE INTERFERENCE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WITHOUT SOME PRESSURE BEING EXERTED ON ISRAEL TO STOP THE HOSTILITIES, THIS MADNESS WILL CONTINUE TO BE.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT HUMANITY CAN GO THIS LOW, BY WITNESSING SUCH ATROCITIES IN THE GAZA STRIP BEING COMMITTED WITHOUT ANY COMMITMENT TOWARDS REVITALIZING STEPS THAT CAN YIELD POSITIVE RESULTS AND CAN END THIS MADNESS AND BRING ABOUT A DIFFERENT REALITY.

AS YOU KNOW, SCORES AND SCORES OF PALESTINIANS ARE BEING KILLED.

CUTTING ELECTRICITY, WATER, AND BASIC SUPPLIES, BOMBING SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES AND HOSPITALS, I DON'T KNOW AS TO HOW THIS WILL EVER BRING PEACE TO THE REGION OR TO ISRAEL.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IS A CONCERTED EFFORT TO SEE A DIFFERENT REALITY ON THE GROUND.

>> YOU YOURSELF HAVE SAID THAT YOU HAVE LOST SIGNIFICANT MEMBERS OF -- I THINK IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 44 MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN FAMILY, YOU'VE SAID.

I MEAN, COUSINS, DISTANT RELATIVES, WHO ARE THEY?

>> YEAH, THESE ARE RELATIVES OF MINE, THE 44 ARE MEMBERS OF FAMILY INCLUDE ONE WAS THE HIGHEST SCORER IN THE NATIONAL HIGH SCHOOL, VERY FINE DOCTOR WHO WAS WORKING AT THE HOSPITAL.

BOTH ARE HIGHLY QUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS THAT DESERVE TO LIVE AND DESERVE TO BUILD A STATE THAT'S COMING INTO BEING.

INSTEAD, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TARGETED AND SCORES AND SCORES OF PALESTINIANS.

SO, I FEEL NOT ONLY MY IMMEDIATE FAMILY, IT IS THE EXTENDED FAMILY OF PALESTINE THAT'S BEING TARGETED, AND IF ANYTHING, EVERY PALESTINIAN FEELS THAT THIS IS NOTHING BUT ETHNIC CLEANSING THAT'S GOING TO BRING ABOUT A DIFFERENT REALITY ON THE GROUND.

INSTEAD OF RESOLVING THE CONFLICT, IT'S JUST ENTRENCHING MORE AND MORE HATRED.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HUMANITY SHOULD NEVER ENTERTAIN.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE ENTERTAINED IS A DIFFERENT FUTURE FOR ALL PALESTINIANS, AND TO STOP THE MADNESS WHEREBY HOMES ARE BEING BOMBED ON THE HEADS OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND ELDERLY.

>> YOU ARE A FATAH MEMBER, I WONDER WHETHER YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THE FAILURES, NOT JUST LOSING THE ELECTION, WHICH WAS CATASTROPHIC IN 2006, AND HAS BROUGHT EVERYBODY TO WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW WITH HAMAS IN POWER, BUT YOUR OWN AUTHORITY HAS NOT CALLED FOR ELECTIONS SINCE THEN.

AND THERE JUST SEEMS TO BE A GENERAL SENSE OF INABILITY TO COPE.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU TAKE ANY -- WHETHER YOU LOOK INTROSPECTIVELY, ESPECIALLY FOR THE FUTURE, AND WONDER, OH, MY GOSH, IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OVER GAZA, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO UP OUR GAME.

>> LET'S REFRESH YOUR MIND, IF YOU DON'T MIND, HUMANITY CONSIDERS THAT THE 194 WAS THE EARTHQUAKE.

WHAT WE SAW LATER THE RIPPLE EFFECT.

WE SAW THE SIX-DAY WAR, THE LEBANON WAR, BEFORE THAT, WE SAW THE 1973 WAR, AND THEN WE SAW A SUCCESSIVE NUMBER OF WARS STARTING IN 2008.

TO BE TOTALLY HONEST, AND TELL YOU THAT HAD HUMANITY RESOLVED THE ISSUE OF THE CONFLICT DECADES AGO, THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER.

WE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HERE.

BUT THE FAILURE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO RECOGNIZE U.N.

RESOLUTIONS, RESOLVE THEM, HAS TAKEN US PLACES, AND ONE OF THE PLACES IS TODAY WHERE WE STAND.

MAY I ALSO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY THAT 2021 IS WHEN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY DECIDED TO HOLD GENERAL ELECTIONS.

AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY INCLUDING AMERICA PROMISED TO PRESSURE THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES SO THAT ELECTIONS ARE HELD IN THE OCCUPIED EAST JERUSALEM, BUT ISRAEL WOULDN'T GIVE IN.

ISRAEL WAS ADAMANT NOT TO ALLOW ELECTIONS TO TAKE PLACE.

AND THE FAILURE OF THE PROCESS HAS YIELDED A VERY NEGATIVE RESULT AND NEGATIVE IMPLICATIONS BY WHICH, YOU KNOW, PALESTINIAN ELECTIONS WERE NOT HELD.

AND NOW, PEOPLE COME BACK AND QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY.

WELL, LEGITIMACY OF PALESTINE WAS DEPENDENT ON A NUMBER OF ONE WAS THE SUCCESS OF THE PEACE PROCESS THAT WAS STARTED IN 1993.

THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GUARANTEED BY AMERICA, BUT INSTEAD, THEY DECIDED TO TURN THEIR BACK AWAY.

>> MR. SAIDAN -- >> ISRAEL WANTED OUT OF THE PEACE PROCESS, WHERE -- >> YEAH, I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, OBVIOUSLY, THIS CURRENT GOVERNMENT HAS NOT WANTED, YOU KNOW, THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

WE KNOW THAT.

BUT -- BUT YOUR PREVIOUS CHAIRMAN ALSO REJECTED THE BEST PEACE PROCESS AND PEACE DEALS THAT WERE EVER PUT ON THE TABLE.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A FACT.

AND I WONDER WHERE YOU THINK THIS COULD GO NOW, WITHOUT REVISITING HISTORY, YOU JUST HEARD FROM OUR PREVIOUS GUEST THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOME ENTITY THAT'S LEGITIMATE, PALESTINIAN ENTITY, THAT CAN STEP INTO THE BREACH WHEN THIS WAR IS OVER.

IF YOU STILL BELIEVE IN THE POSSIBILITY OF PEACE AND A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, THINGS ARE VERY COMPLICATED NOW.

THE WORLD COMMUNITY IS NOW PRESSING FOR A DIFFERENT REALITY.

I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT THIS TIME, THE WORLD COMMUNITY IS SERIOUS ABOUT FORGING A NEW RELATIONSHIP AND BREAKING NEW GROUNDS WITH A DURABLE, RELIABLE, SUSTAINABLE PEACE EFFORT THAT LEAD TOWARDS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

JUST TO CLARIFY ONE THING, YES, THERE'S BEEN SOME PEACE STEPS, I SHOULD SAY, TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, CREATING A DIFFERENT REALITY, BUT ISRAEL WAS NEVER SERIOUS.

ANY MAP THAT WAS PRESENTED TO CHAIRMAN ABOUT ARE FAT OR LATER TO PRESIDENT WERE PIECES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, NOT AT ALL CREDIBLE.

WE HAVE SEEN PALESTINIAN TERRITORY BEING ETCHED AWAY, WHICH CREATES REALLY DIFFICULT MOMENTUM FOR THE PALESTINIANS, AND ALSO, A LACK OF CREDIBILITY ON THE PART OF THE WORLD THAT IS SERIOUS.

THERE'S BEEN 1,000 U.N.

RESOLUTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED BY ISRAEL, WHICH ACTUALLY SHEDS A LOT OF DOUBT ABOUT THE OPTIONS OF THE WORLD NOW, WANTING TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT PEACE PROCESS.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUS, DO IT.

CEASE-FIRE IS IMPORTANT.

IT'S NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.

HUMANITARIAN AID, RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA, THE STOPPING THE DISPLACEMENT OF PALESTINIANS TO CREATE A DIFFERENT REALITY ON THE GROUND.

AND ENGAGE IN A VERY SERIOUS PEACE PROCESS, THIS TIME, ADAMANT, NOT TO SEE ANOTHER WAR, AND FURTHER KILLING AND BLOODSHED.

>> SABRI SAIDAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, FOR THREE DECADES, THE ARMENIAN ENCLAVE OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH BATTLED FOR AUTONOMY.

IN SEPTEMBER, THE WORLD, FOCUSED ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE, BARELY NOTICED AS AZERBAIJAN TOOK OVER IN JUST 24 HOURS.

VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE ARMENIAN POPULATION HAS FLED.

FEARING FOR THEIR LIVES, LEAVING EVERYTHING BEHIND.

IN JANUARY, THE SEPARATIST STATE WILL SIMPLY CEASE TO EXIST.

NOW, IT APPEARS ARMENIA IS ON THE VERGE OF A PEACE DEAL WITH AZERBAIJAN.

THE MODERNA COFOUNDER NOUBAR AFEYAN'S GRANDPARENTS SURVIVED THE GENOCIDE, AND HE'S WORKING TO MAKE SURE SOMETHING LIKE THAT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM BOSTON.

MR. AFEYAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WONDER IF WE CAN JUST START BY TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, UNDER THE -- NOBODY WAS LOOKING, AND THIS HAPPENED IN THAT GORE NO KARA BACK IN 24 HOURS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPLANATION ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, THE TAKEOVER, AND NOW THE EXTINCTION OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH IS IN THE CARDS?

>> THE BEGINNINGS OF THIS PROCESS HAPPENED FROM 2020.

AFTER SOMETHING LIKE 26 YEARS OF ESSENTIALLY A RELATIVE PEACE WITH NEGOTIATIONS NOT SUCCEEDING TO ACHIEVE A LASTING PEACE, IN 2020, FALL OF 2020, AZERBAIJAN ATTACKED WITH THE HELP OF TURKEY, THAT SAME REGION, AND RECLAIMED FIVE PORTIONS OF THE TERRITORY THAT HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE INDIGENOUS ARMENIANS.

AND AT THAT TIME, THROUGH BROKERING BY RUSSIA, ON NOVEMBER 9th, A PEACE AGREEMENT WAS AGREED TO, WHICH THEN PROVIDED FOR SO-CALLED PEACE KEEPERS TO BE ON THE GROUND.

TWO YEARS LATER, WE SAW AN EFFORT BY FORCES TO NOW IMPOSE A BLOCKADE.

AND ABOUT NINE MONTHS AGO, A BLOCKADE WAS IMPOSED ON THAT REGION, ON THE REMAINING REGION, WHICH ESSENTIALLY PRESENTED FOOD OR MEDICINES OR FUEL TO ENTER THAT REGION, WITH VERY FREQUENT CUTS IN ELECTRICITY AND GAS SUPPLIES.

THAT AFTER NINE MONTHS LED TO PEOPLE BEING IN A VERY, VERY PANICKED SITUATION, AND AT THE END OF THAT, IN SEPTEMBER OF THIS YEAR, THEY ATTACKED MILITARILY, KILLED ABOUT 500 PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, AND THAT THEN LED TO COMPLETE CAPITULATION BY THE LOCAL POPULATION, AND ALL BUT THREE OR FOUR OF THEM, I BELIEVE, FLED WITHIN A THREE-DAY PERIOD.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHETHER THERE WAS ANYBODY LEFT.

AND I WONDER IF YOU JUST TELL US, BECAUSE YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A MASSIVELY SUCCESSFUL AMERICAN ENTREPRENEUR, CEO, BUSINESS MAUN, AND HAVE DONE SO MUCH, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY, AS WE ALL KNOW, IN THE COVID ENVIRONMENT.

WHAT IS YOUR CONNECTION AND YOUR PERSONAL REASONS FOR, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO SOUND THE ALARM AND, AS WE SAID, TO MAKE SURE THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN?

>> CHRISTIANE, INDEED, I JUST LISTENED TO YOUR TWO PAST SEGMENTS, AND I'M AN ARMENIAN THAT WAS DISPLACED GENERATIONALLY, FIRST TO BULGARIA AFTER WORLD WAR I, THEN -- THAT IS MY FATHER, THEN, IN LEBANON, WHERE I WAS BORN, AND WE FLED A CIVIL WAR.

SOME OF THE REGION IS NOW IN FLAMES AS IT WAS WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, WHEN WE ESCAPED.

AND I CAME TO NORTH AMERICA TO BE ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE WORLD, BUT NEVER REALLY FORGETTING WHAT TOOK ME HERE.

OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS, TOGETHER WITH PARTNERS, I'VE BEEN DEEPLY INVOLVED IN ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS IN ARMENIA, TRYING TO HELP IT RECOVER FROM 70 YEARS UNDER SOVIET RULE.

AND PART OF THAT HAS TAKEN ME DOWN THE PATH OF DOING HUMANITARIAN PROJECTS, NOT IN ARMENIA ONLY, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD, BY STARTING A HUMANITARIAN INITIATIVE AND PRIZE CALLED THE AURORA PRIZE.

THAT EXPOSED ME OVER THE LAST DECADE ALMOST TO THESE TYPES OF ISSUES.

AND FRANKLY, I WAS QUIET PLEASED THAT A CENTURY AFTER MY GRANDFATHER AND HIS FAMILY WERE PERSECUTED, I WAS IN A POSITION NOT ONLY TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE FLEEING OPPRESSION AND GENOCIDE AROUND THE WORLD THROUGH OUR PROJECTS, BUT ALSO TO FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO ARMENIANS AGAIN.

AND IN FACT, WHEN IT BEGAN TO HAPPEN THREE YEARS AGO UNDER THE COVER OF THE PANDEMIC, WHICH WAS THE LAST TIME THIS BEGAN, SO, ONCE THE PANDEMIC AND NOW THE UKRAINE-RUSSIA WAR HAVE BEEN THE COVER OVER WHICH THESE CRIMES HAVE BEEN COMMITTED, IT IS REALLY SHOCKING, BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, WE'RE ALL TRYING TO SEEK LASTING PEACE, BUT WHAT YOU OBSERVE, WHAT I OBSERVE, IS THAT WHEN THE WORLD STANDS BY AND OBSERVES INJUSTICE AND DOESN'T DO ANYTHING, THEN IT'S NOT ONLY DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE JUSTICE, BUT ALSO DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE PEACE.

>> INDEED.

NOW, LOOK, I WANT TO FOCUS ON ONE PERSON, WHO ARE YOU INVOLVED WITH, AS YOU MENTION RUBEN WAS ARRESTED.

HE WAS VERY PROMINENT BUSINESSMAN, PREVIOUSLY HELD RUSSIAN CITIZENSHIP AND HE DID ACTUALLY MAKE HIS FORTUNE DURING PUTIN'S RIDES.

YOU WORKED WITH HIM, ALONG WITH CELEBRITIES LIKE GEORGE CLOONEY AND YOUR AURORA INITIATIVE.

HE'S BEEN INDICTED ON MULTIPLE CHARGES.

FINANCING TERRORISM, ET CETERA.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

HAVE YOU ANY CONTACT WITH RUBEN?

DO YOU THINK HE'LL BE FREED?

WHAT IS THE -- WHAT IS HIS SITUATION?

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.

IT IS, INDEED, AN EXTREMELY PERSONAL AND PAINFUL SITUATION.

I HAVE WORKED WITH RUBEN FOR 23 YEARS ACROSS DOZENS OF HUMANITARIAN AND PHILANTHROPIC PROJECTS IN ARMENIA, WHICH WE'VE DONE TOGETHER, VERY CLOSELY, AND I'VE OBSERVED HIS CHARACTER, HIS CONTRIBUTIONS, NOT ONLY IN ARMENIA, BUT THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

RUBEN, OUT OF UTTER DESPERATION FOR THE FATE OF HIS PEOPLE, MOVED LAST FALL TO HELP THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REMAINING THERE, REGAIN THEIR DIGNITY AND TRY TO OFFER SOME RESISTANCE TO THE PRESSURE THEY WERE UNDER.

AND FOR DOING THAT, OVER A THREE-MONTH PERIOD, AS THE STATE MINISTER, WHICH HE WAS, BETWEEN NOVEMBER AND FEBRUARY OF 2023, HE ESSENTIALLY STAYED THERE AFTER HE CEASED BEING STATE MINISTER AND WAS DOING HUMANITARIAN PROJECTS ON THE GROUND, HELPING PEOPLE COPE WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

WHEN THIS WAR HAPPENED, THIS SUDDEN WAR HAPPENED OVER A DAY AND PEOPLE ESCAPED, RUBEN, IN TURN, AS HAD BEEN PUBLICLY STATED BY THE GOVERNMENT, THAT PEOPLE WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE FREE TO GO, RUBEN, LIKE OTHERS, SOUGHT TO LEAVE TO GO BACK TO ARMENIA, AND IN FACT, HE WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT HAVE NO FACTUAL BASIS, NOR HAS ANY EVIDENCE BEFORE PROPOSED OR OFFERED.

AND, IN FACT, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THAT RUBEN REPRESENTS, IN FACT, A SYMBOL OF ALL ARMENIANS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

RUBEN IS, BASED ON HIS BOTH BUSINESS SUCCESS AND GIVING BACK, I WOULD RECON THE MOST RENOWNED ARMENIAN CITIZEN ON THE PLANET.

AND FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO ARREST HIM, MAKE A SHOW OF THAT ACTIVITY, AND THEN CHARGE HIM IS SOMETHING THAT IS MEANT TO CREATE PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE TO REALLY 10 MILLION ARMENIANS AROUND THE WORLD WHO HAVE ALREADY GONE THROUGH THIS ONCE.

THIS IS THE SECOND TIME.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT 120,000 LEAVING THEIR INDIGENOUS LANDS, THAT IS ETHNIC CLEANSING BY CLASSICAL DEFINITION.

IT'S NOT MY DEFINITION.

IT'S THE DEFINITION OF MOST INTERNATIONAL EXPERTS WHO HAVE SPOKEN UP IN THE LAST MONTH, SAYING WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE BLOCKADE AND NOW THE RESULTING END GAME, IS ETHNIC CLEANSING.

SO, THE NOTION THAT AT THE END OF THAT, WE WOULD BE SUBJECTED TO RUBEN, TOGETHER WITH SEVEN OTHER FORMER ADMINISTRATORS OF THAT REGION, THAT AUTONOMOUS REGION BEING ARRESTED AND THREATENED BY COURT TRIALS, ET CETERA, I REALLY HOPE THAT INTERNATIONAL POWERS DO NOT STAND BY.

BECAUSE ALL THESE STEPS ENCOURAGE MORE AND MORE AND MORE OF THESE TYPES OF IN IMPUNITY.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO STEP UP AGAINST THAT.

>> WELL, YOU ARE CERTAINLY SPEAKING UP, AND AS YOU KNOW, FOUNDER OF MODERNA, YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF EXCITING NEW VACCINES AND THERAPIES ON THE BOOKS, AND I'M AFRAID WE'RE OUT OF TIME, BUT THAT'S FOR ANOTHER DISCUSSION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT, TO THE U.S., WHERE DIVISION CONTINUES TO PLAGUE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THE SENATE GOP IS STILL SPLIT OVER TYING AID FOR UKRAINE WITH ISRAEL FUNDING.

FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER KNOWS THAT DYSFUNCTION ALL TOO WELL.

HIS NEW MEMOIR, "RENEGADE," EXPLORES HOW HE SERVED ON THE JANUARY 6th HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE AS AN OUTCAST IN HIS OWN PARTY, AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

ADAM KINZINGER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, JUST BEEN A COUPLE OF DAYS SINCE REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON, A FORMER COLLEAGUE OF YOURS, WAS ELECTED SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

HE WAS ONE OF THE 147 HOUSE AND SENATE REPUBLICANS WHO VOTED TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

A "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORT SAID THAT HE WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT ARCHITECT OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE OBJECTIONS, AND HE WON THE SPEAKERSHIP UNANIMOUSLY, AND THAT CAME OUT OF A LOT HAPPENING IN THE CAUCUS.

BUT I WONDERED WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS TO THAT?

>> IT'S A FRIGHTENING MOMENT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU TAKE THE SPLIT SCREEN OF BASICALLY THAT SAME DAY, JENNA ELLIS IS ON TELEVISION READING OUT A CONFESSION IN GEORGIA, YOU KNOW, THAT CAME ON THE HEELS OF TWO OR THREE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE CUT PLEA DEALS.

YOU LOOK AT THAT GOING ON, THIS KIND OF REVELATION OF TRUTH, COMPARED TO THE BARRIER FOR ENTRY TO BE CONSIDERED AS A SPEAKER CANDIDATE FOR THE GOP IS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE OBJECTED AT LEAST TO THE ELECTION CERTIFICATION.

AND MIKE JOHNSON GOES A STEP FURTHER.

SO, JIM JORDAN, I WOULD SAY, IS KIND OF THE QUARTERBACK OF ALL THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS, BUT WITHIN CONGRESS, ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TO MOVE TO ACTUALLY PUT CONGRESS ON THE RECORD WAS MIKE JOHNSON.

HE CAME UP TO ME, PARTICULARLY AT ONE TIME, SAID, WILL YOU SIGN ONTO THIS TEXAS LAWSUIT, I'M LIKE, MIKE, YOU MUST NOT KNOW ME VERY WELL.

OF COURSE I'M NOT GOING TO SIGN ONTO IT.

SO, YOU KNOW, HE DRESSES WELL, SPEAKS WELL, BUT HE'S THE SAME INSURRECTIONIST YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN IN SOMEBODY LIKE A JIM JORDAN.

>> DO YOU KNOW HIM AT ALL?

>> I DON'T KNOW HIM WELL.

I KNEW JIM JORDAN FAIRLY WELL.

MIKE, YOU KNOW, HE KIND OF RAN IN DIFFERENT SOCIAL CIRCLES.

WE WEREN'T GREAT BUDDIES, BUT YOU KNOW, I DID INTERACT WITH HIM, AND LIKE I SAID, HE CAN PUT UP A GOOD KIND OF PROFESSIONAL FRONT, BUT BEHIND THAT, PARTICULARLY BEHIND THE SPIRITUAL SIDE OF WHAT HE SAYS HE IS, THERE'S THESE LIES OF A STOLEN ELECTION.

AND I THINK HE'S SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW IT WASN'T STOLEN, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT CONFUSES ME EVEN MORE THAN ANYTHING.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S WHAT CONFUSES A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC, I MEAN, WE'RE CONSTANTLY HEARING THE PEOPLE WHO COVER THE CONGRESS, FOR EXAMPLE, SAY THINGS LIKE, REPORTERS WHO COVER CONGRESS SAYING, THEY DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT, BUT THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO TO SURVIVE POLITICALLY.

BUT THEN OTHER PEOPLE SAY THAT THAT'S PATRONIZING AND WRONG, THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IT, AND THAT THEY'RE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH.

AND IT'S JUST HARD TO KIND OF PUT ALL THOSE THOUGHTS TOGETHER.

WHICH IS TRUE?

>> I MEAN, LOOK.

I THINK IF YOU WOULD GO BACK BEFORE THE LAST ELECTION, THE VAST MAJORITY, I COULD PROBABLY COUNT ON ONE HAND THE NUMBER OF CONGRESSMEN AND WOMEN IN THE GOP THAT PROBABLY THOUGHT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

THE REST WOULD, I WOULD CALL THEM THE 80%ERS, THE ONES THAT WANT TO KEEP THEIR HEAD DOWN AND SURVIVE, THIS ISN'T MY FIGHT, I'LL SAY WHAT I NEED TO SAY.

NOW, YOU HAVE A LOT MORE IN THIS LAST ELECTION CYCLE, BECAUSE WHO WENT UP TO RUN?

THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY BELIEVED THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

SO, YOU HAVE MORE IN CONGRESS NOW.

BUT IF YOU PUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS ON CIA TRUST SERUM AND ASK THEM, WAS THE ELECTION STOLEN, THEY'LL SAY NO.

THEY KNOW IT.

FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, WE HAVE TO WIN AT ALL COSTS, AND THAT INCLUDES THE DEFENSE OF A FRANKLY ATTEMPTED COUP AND I JUST THINK IT'S WRONG.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK, BECAUSE YOUR BOOK, "RENEGADE," DESCRIBES THAT, THE LEADUP TO THAT, AND HOW YOU SAW IT UNFOLD.

YOU SERVED ON THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, YOU WERE ONE OF ONLY TWO REPUBLICANS WHO AGREED TO SERVE, YOU WERE HEAVILY OSTRACIZED AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT DECISION TO SERVE.

NOT ONLY THAT, YOU WERE THE SUBJECT OF THREATS.

WHAT IS THIS BOOK FOR?

I MEAN, IS IT -- DO YOU FEEL YOU CAN PERSUADE PEOPLE AT THIS POINT, OR DO YOU JUST WANT TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT?

WHAT'S IT FOR AT THIS POINT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION, BECAUSE WHEN THE IDEA OF WRITING A BOOK WAS BROUGHT UP TO ME, YOU KNOW, KIND OF LIKE, I -- SOMEBODY HAD ONCE TOLD ME, THEY'RE LIKE, WRITING A BOOK ABOUT YOURSELF IS AN INHERENTLY ARROGANT-FEELING EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE IT'S LIKE, WHY WOULD ANYBODY BE INTERESTED IN MY STORY?

BUZZ THEN I REALIZED THAT MY STORY TELLS THIS BROADER PICTURE.

SO, IT -- YOU KNOW, I CAN TALK ABOUT THE THINGS I DID WRONG, I CAN TALK ABOUT WHERE I'VE SEEN THE PARTY GO AND HOW, YOU KNOW, YES, YOU COULD SEE THESE INDICATIONS OF WHAT IT WAS SLIDING TO, BUT THEY GOT BIGGER AND BIGGER AND DONALD TRUMP ACCELERATED THAT, AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR A COUPLE REASONS.

NUMBER ONE, I THINK EVERYBODY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND, PARTICULARLY IN A DEMOCRACY, WHERE YOU ONLY HAVE TWO PARTIES FOR THE MOST PART, THAT ONE IS VERY SICK, AND HOW DID IT BECOME SICK?

BECAUSE IT'S IN UNDERSTANDING THE VIRUS AND THE DISEASE THAT YOU CAN COME WITH THE SOLUTION.

THE OTHER THING IS, IT'S NOT REALLY WRITTEN AS THIS, BUT IT'S SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO SAY, IS A WARNING TO MY FRIENDS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHICH IS, LOOK FOR THESE KINDS OF SIGNS, BECAUSE I NEVER THOUGHT ANYTHING LIKE THIS COULD HAPPEN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND MOST DEMOCRATS DON'T THINK IT COULD HAPPEN TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BUT IT CAN.

AND SO, WATCH FOR THESE SIGNS AND KNOW WHEN YOU'RE STARTING TO COMPROMISE WHAT -- YOU HAVE TO COMPROMISE IN POLITICS, BUT WHEN YOU ARE COMPROMISING THOSE CORE VALUES, THAT COMMITMENT TO THE OATH?

AND WHEN DOES IT GET TOO FAR?

I CAN TELL YOU, IN ALL OF THESE MOMENTS, PARTICULARLY SINCE 2016, THERE ARE SO MANY DEFINES TIMES WHERE THE PARTY ITSELF COULD HAVE STOOD UP AND SAID, NO MORE.

AND I THINK DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVE BEEN DEFEATED AND WE'D BE IN A MUCH DIFFERENT PLACE, BUT COWARDICE RULED THE DAY.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT VIRUS TO FIX IT.

>> YEAH, YOU ARE PRETTY HARD ON YOURSELF IN THIS BOOK, I HAVE TO SAY.

YOU WERE FIRST ELECTED TO CONGRESS IN 2010, THE 2010 MIDTERM ELECTIONS, PEOPLE, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER, THAT WAS THE SO-CALLED SORT OF TEA PARTY WAVE.

AND YOU SAY, I FEEL SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR JANUARY 6th.

IF ONLY BECAUSE I WAS A PARTICIPANT IN AND WITNESS TO THE GOP'S GRADUAL DECENT INTO A DYSFUNCTIONAL AND DESTRUCTIVE FORCE IN OUR POLITICS.

INTOXICATED BY MY STATUS AND ADDICTED TO THE LEVEL OF ATTENTION, I MADE COMPROMISES TO FEED MY EGO AND SENSE OF IMPORTANCE.

WHEN DID YOU -- WHEN DID THAT START?

>> I MEAN, IT KIND OF STARTS ALL AT THE BEGINNING.

I MEAN, I THINK IF YOU RUN FOR OFFICE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HEALTHY EGO, AND ANY POLITICIAN, WE'LL JUST SAY CONGRESS, CONGRESSMAN OR WOMAN THAT TELLS YOU THEY DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF E GO IN IT IS LYING TO YOU OR WILL PROBABLY NEVER WIN.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO THINK, I'M GOING TO REPRESENT 700,000 PEOPLE, I'M THE BEST PERSON TO DO IT.

THAT TAKES A HEALTHY DOSE OF THAT.

BUT WHAT I STARTED TO RECOGNIZE IS, YOU KNOW, I WENT IN, I WAS ONE OF THE YOUNGEST MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, ONE OF THE FIRST POST-9/11 COMBAT VETERANS, SO, I WOULD BE ASKED ON TV ALL THE TIME, AND THE SECOND YOU GET DONE, YOUR PHONE BUZZES AND EVERYBODY TELLS YOU HOW GREAT IT WAS TO SEE YOU ON TV.

AND THAT'S REAFFIRMING.

AND THEN, YOU ALL OF A SUDDEN HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO BE FORGOTTEN IF YOU DON'T.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME IN TELLING THIS STORY TO RECOGNIZE THAT, AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT -- WHAT A SIGNIFICANT DRIVING FORCE IS, BECAUSE WHEN WE LOOK AT THE AUTOPSY OF THE GOP, AND YOU LOOK AT SOMEBODY LIKE AN ELISE STEFANIK FROM NEW YORK, HOW IS IT THAT SOMEBODY THAT BASICALLY MADE THEIR NAME ON BEING THIS INCREDIBLE MODERATE IN THE ILK IN THE SOMEBODY LIKE PAUL RYAN, HAS BECOME SUCH A FIERCE DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER?

SHE DEFENDED DONALD TRUMP IN THE FIRST IMPEACHMENT AND GOT AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ACCOLADES ON TWITTER AND FROM DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.

SHE PIVOTED ON A TIME.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO JANUARY 6th, OKAY.

YOU WRITE ABOUT WATCHING THE EVENTS OF THAT DAY UNFOLD.

YOU SAID, I FELT MY FAITH IN HUMANITY DRAINING FROM ME.

CIVILIANS PLAYING SOLDIER IN TACTICAL GEAR, HELMETS, BULLET PROOF VESTS AND OTHER BODY ARMOR, WIELDING BATS, TASERS AND BATTERING RAMS WERE WAGING A MEDIEVAL BATTLE AGAINST THE POLICE, THREATENING THE LIVES OF PEOPLE INSIDE AND SHOWING NO SIGN THEY FELT THERE WAS A LIMIT TO THEIR ACTIONS.

IN SHORT IN THAT MOMENT, I NO LONGER FELT THAT PEOPLE WERE BASICALLY GOOD.

YOU KNOW THAT JUST BRINGS UP SO MUCH, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE A PERSON WHO ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED COMBAT.

YOU WERE ACTUALLY IN A WAR, RIGHT?

AND SO, YOU'VE SEEN THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS.

BUT COULD YOU JUST -- COULD YOU SAY MORE ABOUT, LIKE, ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU EXPERIENCED THAT DAY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IMAGINE GOING -- BEING A MEMBER OF A PARTY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU FELL IN LOVE WITH BECAUSE OF ITS COMMITMENT TO THESE DEMOCRATIC IDEALS, BECAUSE OF ITS COMMITMENT TO ORDERER, LAW AND ORDER, AND THEN SEEING THAT ACTUALLY THAT PARTY IS THE THING THAT'S CREATED THIS EXPLOSION THAT WE'RE AT.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, WATCHING, IT WAS INTERESTING.

SO, I'M A GUARDSMAN, AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SAW MY FIRST NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS I WAS VERY PROUD AND ALSO VERY SAD AT THE SAME TIME.

I WAS PROUD OF THEM, I WAS SAD THAT THEY WERE THERE.

BUT I REMEMBER, FOR ABOUT A WEEK OR TWO, SEEING ANYBODY IN ANY MILITARY GEAR KIND OF -- I DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD TRIGGERED ME, BECAUSE THAT'S TOO MUCH OF A WORD, BUT IT TOOK ME BACK TO THINKING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE CLIMBING THE STAIRS WITH MILITARY GEAR ON, ATTACKING THE CAPITOL.

MOST OF THEM HAD NEVER SERVED A DAY IN THEIR LIFE.

AND WHAT YOU GET IS THIS MOMENT WHERE THERE'S A CERTAIN SECTOR, PARTICULARLY OF MEN RIGHT NOW, THAT FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO FIGHT FOR SOMETHING BIGGER, BUT THEY'RE UNWILLING TO DO THINGS LIKE JOIN THE MILITARY OR ACTUALLY GO HELP PEOPLE, AND SO, SOMEBODY'S COME ALONG AND CONVINCED THEM THAT FIGHTING ON BEHALF OF A CERTAIN POLITICAL THING OR FIGHTING AGAINST THE INJUSTICE OF A STOLEN ELECTION, IS WHERE THEY CAN FIND THEIR MEANING.

AND WHAT YOU SAW ON THAT DAY WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THOSE STAIRS WITH THAT TACTICAL GEAR PRETENDING TO BE IN A WAR, BECAUSE IT MADE THEM, IT SCRATCHED SOME ITCH THAT THEY COULDN'T SCRATCH ANY OTHER WAY THEY NEEDED TO.

AND THAT WAS FIGHTENING TO ME, AND IT MADE ME COME TO REALIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF GIVING PEOPLE A PURPOSE TO LIVE FOR, BESIDES JUST FIGHTING YOUR FELLOW MAN.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOUR FELLOW LAWMAKERS AT THAT TIME?

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, A NUMBER OF YOU HAD SERVED, BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, HAD SERVED.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE FOUND OUT LATER IS HOW MANY PEOPLE KIND OF WHO USED THEIR MILITARY SERVICE TO PROTECT THEIR FELLOW MEMBERS, BUT THAT HAD TO MAKE YOU FEEL SOME KIND OF WAY, TO KNOW THAT YOU HAD ACTUALLY PUT ON THE UNIFORM, BEEN IN COMBAT, YOU KNOW, AND YET YOU GOT PEOPLE WHO ARE EGGING THEM ON WHO NEVER HAD.

>> YEAH, IT MADE ME FURIOUS.

AND AGAIN, IT MADE ME FURIOUS, BECAUSE IT'S SOMEBODY PRETENDING TO BE SOME KIND OF A PATRIOT.

AND THAT STILL BOTHERS ME THAT THEY'VE TRIED TO TAKE THAT WORD AND MAKE IT SOMETHING IT'S NOT.

YOU CAN BE ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT AND BE A PATRIOT.

AND SO, IT MADE ME ANGRY, IT MADE ME ANGRY TO KNOW WHAT I HAD FOUGHT FOR, THAT THIS WAS BEING REALLY THROWN AWAY SO QUICKLY, BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAD BEEN LIED TO, BECAUSE THEIR PATRIOTISM, FRANKLY, HAD BEEN ABUSED BY THE MAN AT THE TOP THAT TOLD THEM THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AT ONE POINT, I'M AT MY DESK IN MY OFFICE AND I NEVER CARRIED MY GUN TO WORK, EXCEPT ON JANUARY 6th.

I'M SITTING THERE WITH MY GUN OUT, ENTERTAINING THE FACT THAT I MAY HAVE TO FIGHT AND SHOOT MY FELLOW AMERICANS.

I LOOK BACK, I CAN'T BELIEVE WE GOT TO THAT POINT.

THE AMAZING THING, YOU SAY, HOW DID YOUR OTHER LAWMAKERS FEEL?

WHAT'S AMAZING TO ME, EVERY OTHER REPUBLICAN AT THAT MOMENT, MAYBE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE OR TWO, WAS FEELING EXACTLY HOW I WAS, BUT HOW QUICKLY THEY WERE ABLE TO COMPROMISE THAT, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE COST THEM THEIR JOB HAD THEY SPOKEN OUT.

>> IN FACT, YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS, IN FACT, THE RECORD IS CLEAR HERE, THAT YOU IMMEDIATELY SUPPORTED DONALD TRUMP'S IMPEACHMENT IN THE AFTERMATH OF JANUARY 6th.

YOU WERE THE FIRST MEMBER OF CONGRESS TO CALL FOR INVOKING THE 25th AMENDMENT TO REMOVE HIM, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED HE WASN'T -- HE WAS NO LONGER FIT TO BE PRESIDENT.

DID ANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES AGREE WITH YOU AT THAT POINT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, IT'S LIKE, LOOK, THE ONES THAT ULTIMATELY WOULDN'T AGREE WITH ME WERE QUIET WHEN I CALLED FOR THAT, BECAUSE EVERYBODY -- THE AMAZING THING IS, WE WOULD MEET AS WHAT'S CALLED A CONFERENCE, WHERE ALL THE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS GET TOGETHER, AND IT WAS ALMOST SILENCE IN THAT ROOM, BECAUSE NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO DO, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THIS WAS GOING TO GO.

YOU KNOW, WHAT'S NEXT HERE?

WE WERE WAITING FOR LEADERSHIP TO SHOW.

SO, WHEN I PUT OUT THE VIDEO SAYING, IT'S TIME FOR THE 25th AMENDMENT, GET RID OF HIM, YOU GOT SOMES OF THE CRAZIES THAT KEPT GOING ON TWITTER THAT WOULD SPEAK OUT, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.

AND IT WAS LIKE THAT FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS, WHERE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT'S NEXT, WHERE DO WE GO?

THE THING THAT CHANGED THAT, AND BY THE WAY, I CAN GET TO IMPEACHMENT WHEN I THOUGHT THERE WERE GOING TO BE 25 TO VOTE FOR IT, THERE ENDED UP BEING TEN, BUT THE THING THAT REALLY CHANGED THE KNOWN TRAJECTORY OF WHERE THE PARTY WAS GOING TO GO WAS THE SECOND THAT KEVIN McCARTHY WENT TO MAR-A-LAGO.

AND HE TOOK THAT PICTURE.

TO THAT POINT, THERE WAS STILL A LOT OF, LIKE, HMM, I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE'RE GOING TO GO ON THIS.

THE SECOND THAT PICTURE CAME OUT, YOU SAW PEOPLE KIND OF -- LITERALLY, IN SOME CASES, KIND OF PUT THEIR HEADS DOWN AND THEN GO OUT AND DEFEND DONALD TRUMP, BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT'S WHAT THEY HAD TO DO TO SURVIVE.

THAT, TO ME, WAS THE FIRST MOMENT AT WHICH I REALIZED, THIS MAY BE A BIT OF A HARDER FIGHT THAN I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE AFTER JANUARY 6th.

>> SO, YOU'VE SAID EARLIER, AND YOU SAID IN THE BOOK THAT YOU STILL -- YOU THINK THERE IS A WAY THROUGH THIS.

WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL, LOOK, I LOOK AT 2028 AND I SAY, THERE'S GOING TO BE FULLY NEW CANDIDATES ON BOTH SIDE ETC., THERE'S GOING TO BE A CHANCE FOR NEW IDEA, NEW BLOOD AND NEW ENERGY.

I THINK WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME ALONG, THE REPUBLICAN BASE WANTED TO BREAK THE SYSTEM.

HE DIDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT, BUT HE WAS A BREAK THE SYSTEM GUY.

I THINK THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF AMERICA NOW THAT MAYBE DOESN'T EVEN REALIZE IT, THAT WANTS TO FIX THE SYSTEM, THAT WANTS TO TEAM, THAT WANTS TO BRING THE TEMPERATURE DOWN.

AND IF YOU HAVE A BARACK OBAMA FOR THE DEMOCRATS OR A RONALD REAGAN FOR THE REPUBLICANS THAT COMES ALONG WITH AN OPTIMISTIC MESSAGE, THAT CAN REVOLUTIONIZE EVERYTHING.

I DO THINK THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS TO LOSE MORE ELECTIONS AND FRANKLY HAS TO BURN DOWN TO SAVE IT.

I VOTED DEMOCRATIC LAST ELECTION, I'M VOTE DEMOCRATIC THIS COMING ELECTION, BECAUSE IN MY MIND, THERE'S ONLY ONE ISSUE ON THE BALLOT.

THAT ISSUE IS, DO YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY?

IF YOU DON'T, I GOT A PARTY FOR YOU.

IF YOU DO, RIGHT NOW, THERE'S ONLY ONE PARTY THAT SHOWS A REAL COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT, THOUGH, THAT THERE ARE JUST SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN SORT OF CREATED IN ORDER TO KEEP THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN A PERMANENT STATE OF ADVANTAGE.

YOU DO WONDER WHY IT IS THAT REPUBLICANS DON'T, AT SOME POINT, THINK THAT THE SAME MECHANISMS COULD BE TURNED AGAINST THEM.

>> WELL, IT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND ULTIMATELY, IT COMES DOWN TO, HOW DO YOU WIN ELECTIONS?

WELL, YOU CAN TRY TO WIN IT THROUGH MANIPULATING THE SYSTEM, OR YOU CAN TRY TO WIN IT BY CONVINCING PEOPLE OF YOUR SIDE.

THE PROBLEM WITH THE REPUBLICANS RIGHT NOW, NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEY ACTUALLY STAND FOR.

I CAN'T LIST A SERIES OF POLICIES THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BELIEVES IN, BECAUSE THEIR COMMITMENT IS SIMPLY TO WHATEVER THE LATEST THING DONALD TRUMP SAYS.

AND SO YOU HAVE TO USE THE SYSTEMS LIKE GERRYGERRYMANDERING.

THE REPUBLICAN LEAD IS VERY THIN RIGHT NOW, AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A HARDHOLDING ONTO THE HOUSE NEXT YEAR.

BUT DON'T TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED.

THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THAT DONALD TRUMP CAN WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT FACES LEGAL CHALLENGES IN A NUMBER OF JURISDICTIONS.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, SERIOUS, YOU KNOW, CRIMINAL CHARGES, AND SERIOUS CIVIL CHARGES.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN HIS INNER CIRCLE, I MEAN, THESE ARE NOT, LIKE, OUTSIDE ANTAGONISTS, PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSEST TO HIM HAVE ALREADY PLEADED GUILTY, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN HOW HE'S VIEWED BY HIS CORE SUPPORTERS, AS IT WERE, AND I -- HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> WELL, AND I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- HERE'S A COUPLE REASONS FOR THAT.

NUMBER ONE, DONALD TRUMP IS THE TIER ONE INFLUENCER.

BUT THERE ARE TIER TWO INFLUENCERS IN THE PARTY, AND THAT'S EVERYBODY THAT'S ON THAT STAGE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT THAT'S NOT DONALD TRUMP.

NOW, DO ANY OF THEM HAVE THE SAME INFLUENCE AS DONALD TRUMP?

NO.

BUT COLLECTIVELY, THE REPUBLICANS ARE STILL WATCHING WHAT THESE FOLKS ARE SAYING.

AND WHEN DONALD TRUMP GETS INDICTED, AND THE RESPONSE OF ALL THESE TIER TWO INFLUENCERS IS TO SAY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CHRIS CHRISTIE, IS TO SAY, THERE'S A TWO-TIERED SYSTEM OF JUSTICE, DONALD TRUMP IS INNOCENT, THIS IS A WITCH HUNT, EVEN MIKE PENCE SAID THAT, FOR GOODNESS SAKES.

THEN, IT'S NO DOUBT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS STILL GOING TO RALLY BEHIND DONALD TRUMP, BECAUSE THE OTHER PEOPLE THEY TRUST ARE REAFFIRMING WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS SAYING, WHICH IS, HE'S JUST A VICTIM.

AND BY THE WAY, EVERYBODY LOVES TO SUPPORT A VICTIM.

EVERYBODY LOVES TO SUPPORT AN UNDERDOG.

A COUNTRY THAT EVEN IF ONE PARTY'S GONE NUTS, STILL TAKES THE MAJORITY VOTES AND CREATES A WINNER.

AND THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY WHERE I DON'T THINK 50 PLUS ONE PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS OKAY WITH A PRESIDENT FACING FELONIES.

WE JUST HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY TURN OUT TO VOTE.

>> SO, WHAT'S YOUR JOB RIGHT NOW?

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS YOUR TASK?

>> WELL, MY TASK RIGHT NOW IS TO TAKE CARE OF MY FAMILY, WHICH IS AMAZING TO BE ABLE TO DO.

AND IT'S TO BE ABLE TO KEEP AS MUCH INFLUENCE TO THE EXTENT OF NOT WITHIN THE GOP, BUT TO TRY TO BRING THESE WARNINGS FORWARD TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN PROTECT ITSELF FROM THE WARNINGS I SAW TO HELP HEAL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND GROW THE MIDDLE.

SO, I HAVE AN ORGANIZATION, COUNTRY FIRST, IT'S COUNTRY1ST.COM.

IT'S NONPARTISAN, AND WE RECRUIT AND PROMOTE PEOPLE THAT REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, THAT PUT COUNTRY OVER PARTY.

THAT'S DEMOCRACY BUILDING HERE WE ACTUALLY DO REALLY GOOD AT HELPING TO BUILD INSTITUTIONS THROUGH NGOs OVERSEAS.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT AT HOME, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T THINK WE NEEDED IT.

WE DO NEED IT.

>> ADAM KINZINGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> YOU BET, ANY TIME.

>>> AND FINALLY, AS YOU'LL SOON NOTICE, TODAY IS THE FIRST OF MOVEMBER.

>> CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE.

HOW WILL YOU MO THIS MOVEMBER?

>> IT'S THE MONTH WHEN MEN ACROSS THE WORLD GROW OUT THEIR MUSTACHE TO RAISE AWARENESS FOR MEN'S HEALTH ISSUES.

MEN DIE FIVE YEARS EARLIER THAN WOMEN, AND ACCOUNT FOR MORE THAN TWO-THIRDS OF ALL SUICIDES.

AND, NOT TO SPLIT HAIRS, IN 2022, THE MOVEMBER FOUNDATION RAISED ALMOST $20 MILLION IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE TOWARDS EARLY CANCER DETECTION AND OTHER CRITICAL SERVICES.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR YOUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.