>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," AFTER THE TEEN WHO SHOT THREE PEOPLE, KILLING TWO, DURING A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST IN WISCONSIN, BROKE DOWN ON THE STAND TODAY DURING HIS TESTIMONY, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER AND CHICAGO LAW PROFESSOR DEAN STRANG-- OF "MAKING A MURDERER" FAME-- JOIN ME ON WHY HIS SELF-DEFENSE CLAIM, AS WELL AS THAT OF AHMAUD ARBERY'S KILLERS, WHO'S ALSO ON TRIAL, COULD SET SOME DANGEROUS NEW PRECEDENTS.

THEN, LATER, NPR'S TIM MAK TELLS ME ABOUT THE SECRET AUDIO RECORDINGS HE GOT FROM INSIDE N.R.A.

LEADERSHIP DISCUSSIONS AFTER THE 1999 COLUMBINE SCHOOL MASSACRE, DETAILING CONTEMPT FOR THEIR ACTIVISTS AND FOR THE SAFETY OF YOU AND ME.

♪ ♪ ♪ NOTES >> Braude: KYLE RITTENHOUSE, THE THEN-17-YEAR-OLD WHO SHOT AND KILLED TWO PEOPLE, AND WOUNDED ANOTHER DURING A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST IN WISCONSIN LAST AUGUST, TOOK THE STAND IN HIS OWN MURDER TRIAL TODAY.

HE AND HIS ATTORNEYS TRIED TO PAINT A PICTURE OF A SCARED KID WHO WAS THERE TO HELP DEFEND PROPERTY, BUT ENDED UP FEARING FOR HIS LIFE: >> I WAS CORNERED FROM-- IND FRONT OF ME WITH MR. ZIMINSKI AND THERE WERE--(TEARING UP) THERE WERE THREE PEOPLE RIGHT THERE.Ñi >> ON AUGUST 25th OF 2020, DID YOU COME TO DOWNTOWN KENOSHA LOOKING FOR TROUBLE?

>> NO.

>> Braude: BUT THE PROSECUTION ARGUED THAT WASN'T THE CASE AT ALL, QUESTIONING HIS REASONS FOR GOING TO KENOSHA WITH HIS AR-15-STYLE WEAPON, WHICH HE WAS TOO YOUNG TO LEGALLY CARRY THERE, AND HIS INTENTIONS WHEN HE FIRED.

A LINE OF QUESTIONING THAT PROMPTED A REPETITIVE, VERYL@/ CAREFULLY WORDED RESPONSE FROM RITTENHOUSE:"N3W >> I INTENDED TO STOP THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ATTACKING ME.

>> BY KILLING THEM.

>> I DID WHAT I HAD TO DO TO STOP THE PERSON WHO WAS ATTACKING ME.

>> BY KILLING THEM.

>> TWO OF THEM PASSED AWAY, BUT I STOPPED THE THREAT FROM ATTACKING ME.

>> Braude: THE DEFENSE ALSO DID ITS BEST TO PORTRAY THOSE WHO RITTENHOUSE SHOT AS THREATENING FIGURES, BENEFITING FROM A PRE-TRIAL RULING THAT LET THE DEFENSE CALL THEM "RIOTERS," "ARSONISTS" AND "LOOTERS" AND BARRED PROSECUTORS FROM CALLING ANY OF THEM "VICTIMS."

THAT'S JUST ONE OF MANY TROUBLING ELEMENTS MY NEXT GUESTS SEE IN THIS CASE, AS WELL AS THE TRIAL OF AHMAUD ARBERY'S KILLERS, WHO ARE CLAIMING SELF-DEFENSE, WHICH THEY'VE LAID OUT IN AN OP-ED FOR THE "CHICAGO SUN TIMES," TITLED: "AMERICA SHoN BEHAVIOR."

NANCY GERTNER IS A RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE, NOW A SENIORP, LECTUREER AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, AND DEAN STRANG IS A LOYOLA UNIVERSITY CHICAGO LAW PROFESSOR AND A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER IN MADISON, WISCONSIN.

HE'S ALSO KNOWN FOR REPRESENTING STEVEN AVERY IN THE MURDER TRIAL FEATURED IN THE NETFLIX SERIES "MAKING A MURDERER."

DEAN IT'S REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU.

JUDGE GERTNER, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THE COMMON THREAD THAT THE TWO0L OF YOU3bçñ WEAVE THROUGH KYLE RIT NAWR AND.

>> I WAS DOING THIS, I WAS SORT OF PROACTIVELY DOING WHAT I DID, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THE GUY WAS COMMITTING A CRIME.

AND THAT WAS THE IMPLICATION OF THE -- AND THE JUDGE WAS SORT OFgFo ALLOWING THAT IMPLICATIONxD BY SAYING THAT THE DEFENSE COULD CALL THE VICTIMS LOOTERS, ARSONISTS AND AT ONE POINT THE JUDGE EVEN SAID I WANT YOU TO -- YOU CAN BASICALLY TELL THE STORY, YOU CAN CAST DOUBT ON THE STORY BY CALLING THEM LOOTERS, ARSONISTS, ET CETERA.

WHAT THAT DOES IS IMPLY THAT IT'S OKAY TO SHOOT PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMITTING CRIMES.

AND ACTUALLY A STATUTE THAT ENABLED CITIZENS ARRESTS.

BUT DEAN KNOWS MORE ABOUT THAT THAN I.

>> Braude: I WANT TO STAY ON YOUR BASIC THEME THOUGH.

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT WHAT JUDGE GERTNER JUST DESCRIBED IN THE KILLING OF ARBERY AND THE KILLING OF TRAYVON MARTIN, NOT JUST PROTECTING PROPERTY BUTTER SEX-DEFENSE.

THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE PRETTY POWERFULLY.

I ACTUALLY THINK THEY'VE MADE IT WITH SOME OF THE -- EVEN THE PROSECUTION'S OWN WITNESSES THAT THE PEOPLE HE ENDED UP SHOOTING WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE ABOUT TO SHOOT HIM.

NO, DOESN'T THAT DISTINGUISH THIS CASE A LITTLE BIT?

>> IT MAY.

IT MAY.

A JURY MAY DECIDE THAT.

AND NEITHER NANCY NOR I ARE HERE TO SAY WHO'S GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY.

>> Braude: YEAH.

>> OR TO COMMENT DIRECTLY ON THE EVIDENCE, AND WHAT THE JURY'S GOT TO DO.

I THINK OUR POINT IS: LEGITIMATE SELF-DEFENSE HAS TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM PROVOKING THE VIOLENCE THAT YOU THEN FEAR.

IF YOU'RE THE ONE WHO, BY LEGAL ACTIVITY, PROVOKES THE DANGEROUS SITUATION THAT YOU THEN ENCOUNTER, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET BACK, OR TO HAVE ARISE NOW, A RIGHT OF SELF DEFENSE, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD.

SO TO ME, WHAT 4 TOGETHER IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE PROVOCATION.

BY THE PERSON LATER CLAIMING A RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE.

AND THAT AT LEAST SHOULD BE A VERY HEAVY LIFT.

>> Braude: DEAN, DESCRIBE TO ME, THE TERM LEGAL OR LEGITIMATE SEX DEFENSE.

WHAT IS LEGAL OR LEGITIMATE SELF DEFENSE ACCORDING TO YOU?

>> THE VARIATION IS GOING TO VARY FROM STATE TO STATE, BUT IN ENGLISH LAW YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGE TO USE REASONABLE FORCE, IF YOU PERCEIVE REASONABLY AN IMMINENT THREAT TO YOURSELF.

THAT REASONABLE FORCE CAN BE UP TO AND INCLUDING DEADLY FORCE.

BUT ONLY IF YOU REASONABLY PER SEEF AN IMMINENT THREAT OF -- PERCEIVE AN IMMINENT THREAT OR THREAT OF DEADLY HARM TO YOURSELF.

THE POINT WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE ASK, YOU CAN'T PROVOKE THAT, AND THEN ARGUE WELL, I HAD TO USE SELF DEFENSE TO AVOID IT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW JUDGE GERTNER, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE SENTENCE I USED IN THE OP ED THAT YOU TWO WROTE THAT THE LAJ THAT THE JUDGE IN HIS EARLIER RULINGS PERMITTED TO BE USED AND NOT PERMITTED TO BE USED.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT YET AGAIN?

AND TELL ME WHETHER YOU THINK THAT ESSENTIALLY ALMOST LAYS THE FOUNDATION FOR KYLE KIT NAWS'S LAWYERS, TO DO WHAT YOU BELIEVE >> THE JUDGE SAID THOUGHT PROSECUTOR COULD NOT CALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SHOT VICTIMS.

WHICH WAS A STUNNING IN AND OFtñ OF RITTENHOUSE COULD CALL THE PEOPLE HE SHOT LOOTERS, ARSONISTS, ET CETERA.

THE IMPLICATION OF THAT IS THAT THEY -- HE WAS ESSENTIALLY SAYING THE DEFENSE CAN CLAIM THAT HE WAS JUSTIFIED.

BECAUSE THEE PEOPLE WERE DISOBEYING THE LAW, THAT IT WAS JUSTIFIED.

AND THAT IS PRECISELYWBvÑ WHAT YOU13 CANNOT DO.

WE DON'T HAVEQ%i IN THIS COUNTRY, AND CERTAINLY THERE'S NO SUCH THING IN WISCONSIN,q AROUND -- YOU DON'T -- ONE OF THE POINTS WE ARE MAKING MORE BROADLY IS WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH COPS WHO HAVE SHOT PEOPLE, BELIEVING THAT THEY WERE ENDANGERED ORÑi PROTECTING OTHERS.

AND COPS ARE AT LEAST TRAINED ON HOW TO USE WEAPONS.

THE NOTION THAT YOU PRIVILEGE A 17-YEAR-OLD TO DO THE SAME IS EXTRAORDINARY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU FOR A SECOND.&5 WE ACTUALLY DO HAVE STATE THAT ALLOW CITIZENS' ARRESTS.

GEORGIA UNDID THEIR LAW AFTER THE AHMAUD ARBERY CASE.

BUT JUDGE WAS THERE EVER A CASE THAT YOU UNPERMITTED THE USE OF THE WORD VICTIM EVER?

>> NEVER.

IN FACT IT'S SEEN AS A SORT OF PRETTY YOU KNOW ANODYNE WORD FOR DESCRIBING SOMEONE.

IN FACT DEAN AND I WERE TRYING TO THINK ABOUT WERE THERE OTHER CASES INVOLVING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SO FORTH, IN WHICH THE JUDGE WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM TALKING ABOUT VICTIMS.

LOOTER ARSONIST IS AN EPITHET, HE'S ALLOWING ONE SIDE TO INDULGE IN THAT AND THE OTHER SIDE TO NOT.

>> Braude: BESIDE THE FACULTY YOU DON'T THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE IN A SELF DEFENSE CASE WHICH IS PART OF WHAT RITTENHOUSE IS SAYING IN THIS CASE, YOU DON'T THINK THAT TERM IS MORE LOADED THAN YOU ARE BOTH DESCRIBING I.T.

TO BE, VICTIM?

>> THE WORD VICTIM IS LOADED?

>> Braude: YEAH.

>> I SUPPOSE IT'S LOADED BUT THERE ISN'T A JURY IN THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND TO ONE SIDE AS WE SAY IN OUR OP ED, TO ONE SIDE HE WAS A VICTIM AND ONE SIDE IT WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS ENGAGING IN VIOLENCE TO WHOM THE RESPONSE WAS APPROPRIATE.

IT IS LOADED BUT IT CAN BE UNLOADED AND UNPACKED PRETTY SOON.

TO ALLOW THE CHARACTER ACCREDIT CHUR OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE SHOT, THIS IS A CARICATURE THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

>> Braude: DOAN, YOU ARE BOTH CONCERNED WHICH I'M SUREñr YOU ARE BOTHúD6 JUSTICE, I HOPE EVERYONE WATCHING IS CONCERNED ABOUT VIGILANTE JUSTICE, WHERE DOES THE SOLUTION LIE IN A COURTROOM OR IN LEGISLATURES?

>> WELL IN THE SHORT TERM IT LIES IN ANY COURTROOM WHERE THAT ISSUE IS PLAYED OUT.

IN THE LONG TERM, I'M NOT SURE IT'S A LEGISLATIVE PROBLEM.

IT IS A CULTURAL PROBLEM HERE.

AND I IT THIS TO BE CLEAR JIM, TO GO BACK, THE WORD VICTIM IS -- IT'S AND ARGUMENT.

IT'S AN ARGUMENT YOU EXPECT A PROSECUTOR TO MAKE.

IT IS OF COURSE TRUE THAT IN THE END AND NANCY AND I ACKNOWLEDGE, IN THE END JURIES DECIDE WHO'S A VICTIM AND WHO'S NOT AÑ)sñ VICTIM.

IT'S -- AT LEAST SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, THE REAL CONCERN HEIER IS, TILTING IN THE DEFENSE FAVOR, THE ARGUMENTIVE ADVANTAGE OR THE RHETORICAL ADVANTAGE BY REMOVING THE ARGUMENT FROM THE PROSECUTOR THAT YOU HAVE VICTIMS ON THE ONE SIDE.

BUT IF THE DEFENSE CAN POINT TO SOMENB EVIDENCE, ENABLING THE DEFENSE TO USE REALLY INFLAMMATORY RHETORIC IN DESCRIBING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SHOT, AND THAT SORT OF SKEW IN THE ARGUMENTATION OF THE CASE, I THINK IT MAY BE SUBTLE, IT MAY BE TOO SUBTLE FOR A MASS AUDIENCE, BUT IT CONCERNS ME HERE, WITH THE WAY IN WHICH THIS TRIAL THE BEING CONDUCTED.

>> Braude: DEAN I WANT TO TAKE ISSUE WITH YOUR NOTION THERE MAY NOT BE A LEGISLATIVE SOLUTION.

IT MAY NOT BE REALISTIC BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE CITIZENS ARREST LAWS WHICH DO I SAY EXIST IN SOME STATES, NO LONGER IN GEORGIA, AND THE INFAMOUS STAND YOUR GROUND LAWS LIKE THE ONE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN USED IN THE KILLING OF TRAYVON MARTIN, THEY ARE THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM, THEY PROVIDE THE FOUNDATION DO THEY NOT TO ALLOW WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES VIGILANTE JUSTICE, NO?

>> LET'S TAKE THOSE TWO THINGS SEPARATELY.

FIRST, CITIZENS ARREST STATUTES ARE LONG OUTDATED AND DANGEROUS IF INDEED THEY HAD ANY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE.

I THINK IT WAS A RACIALLY LOADED AND RACIALLY INTENDED STATUTE AT THE TIME, TO ALLOW WHITE PEOPLE TO CONTROL BLACK PEOPLE.

TODAY, IN MY VIEW, POLICE POWERS OUGHT TO BE EXERCISED BY THE POLICE.

AND WE OUGHT TO BE FOCUSING ON HOW THEY EXERCISE POLICE POWERS.

THE IDEA THAT A IS 17-YEAR-OLD OR FOR THAT MATTER, A 57-YEAR-OLD, IS OUT SELF-APPOINTED EXERCISING POLICE POWERS OF ARREST, IS TERRIBLE.

SO THOSE STATUTES SHOULD GO.

THE STAND-YOUR-GROUND IDEA AND I'M NOT A FAN OF THOSE STATUTES, BUT THAT'S REALLY JUST SETTING THE BALANCE ON SELF DEFENSE.

AND WE'RE DISTINGUISHING ANY FORM OF SELF DOAFNS DEFENSE HERE FROM PROVOKING THE VERY DANGER THAT YOU THEN CLAIM YOU'VE GOT TO REACT TO IN SELF DEFENSE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, JUDGE GERTNER I'M NOT AN HISTORIAN AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT A LEGAL HISTORIAN.

BUT WHEN I WAS THINKING OF THE TWO OF YOU COMING ON AND THE TERM VIGILANTE JUSTICE, THE FIRST THING THAT OCCURRED TO ME WAS NOT THESE CRIMINAL CASES BUT THE TEXAS ABORTION LAW AND I STEPPED BACK AND WE DISCUSSED THESE AD NAUSEAM ON THE SHOW, BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN, THEY ARE BOUNTY HUNTERS STATUTORILY EMPOWERED, IN THE LAW, IS THERE AN INVERSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PEOPLE'S LACK OF RESPECT FOR THEIR GOVERNMENTS AT SOME POINT WHICH SEEMS TO BE AT A HIGH POINT AND THE RISE OF VIC VIGILANTE+ JUSTICE, AM I TRYING TO MAKE A CONNECTION THAT DOESN'T EXIST?

>> WELL, I THINK THE TEXAS ABORTION LAW4 THAN THAT.

IT WAS NOT A CONCERN'c ABOUT CITIZEN JUSTICE.

!u[ ITSk WAS ABSOLUTELY Aq AVOIDING REVIEW, BY DOING IT THEvOm WAY THATRW THE RITTENHOUSE AND ARBERY AND TRAYVON MARTIN'S CASE ARE MORE THE COMBINATION OF'gG GUNS, COMBINATION OF GUNS, THE>2ñ SORT OF FLUIDITY OF WHAT COMPRISES THE SELF-DEFENSE DEFENSE, AND YOU ADD TO IT YOUR STAND YOUR GROUND AND THE COMBINATION ENABLES SOMEONE DO SAY, ARBERY IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE.

A BLACK GUY RUNNING THROUGH A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD, HE MUST BE UP TO IF THAT IS SUFFICIENT WE ARE COURT BEING ANARCHY.

>> Braude: LET ME ASK YOU THE SAMEó÷ AMOMENTÑiçó AGO, COURTROOM, WHERE?

>> THAT IS NOTgñ AN EASY THING TO ANSWER.

FORMAL STATUTES HAS OCCURRED IN GEORGIA, ABSOLUTELY.

REDOING STAND YOUR GROUND, THAT'S ONE THING.

BUT ULTIMATELY THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE LANGUAGE OF SELF DEFENSE COMES BACK OVER THE DECADES, AS COMMON LAW CONCEPT, ALLOWING YOUó[ TO RESPOND WITH DEADLY FORCE WHEN YOU BELIEVE EE;UNTERING HE DDLY FORCE.

AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE WAY TO IMPLEMENT THAT IS THROUGH JURIES.

AND JURIES COME TO THE TABLE WITH ALL THEIR PREJUDICES.

I THINK SEEING THAT PLAY OUT IN THE RITTENHOUSEf 'ASE.

>>úpN Jon: JUDGE GERTNER AS ALWAYS THANKS SO MUCH AND DEAN STRANG, THANKS FOR HAVING YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING YOU.

>> THANK YOU.vSZv NEXT UP, IN THE DAYS AFTER THE MASS SHOOTING AT C SCHOOL SHOOK THE NATION IN 1999 THE N.R.A.

WAS PLOTTING.

MORE THAN 20 YEARS LATER, THANKS TO NPR'S INVESTIGATIVE TEAM, WE'RE LEARNING EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID, AND WHAT STRATEGIES WERE EMBRACED TO COUNTER EXPECTED BLOWBACK.VMN JUST A DAY(aTER THE SHOOTING THAT KILLED 12 STUDENTS AND A TEACHER AND WOUNDED MORE THAN 20 OTHERS, N.R.A.

LEADERS GATHERED ON A CONFERENCE CALL TO TALK ABOUT THEIR UPCOMING CONVENTION IN DENVER, JUST 14 MILES FROM COLUMBINE.

>> AT THAT SAME PERIOD WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE BURYING THESE CHILDREN, WE'RE GOING TO BE HAVING MEDIA WITHIN TEN MILES OF OUR CONVENTION CENTER, THE WORLD MEDIA, TRYING TO RUN THROUGH THE EXHIBIT HALL, LOOKING AT KIDS FONDLING FIREARMS, WHICH IS GOING TO BE A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE JUXTAPOSITION.

>> Braude: BUT THAT WAS NOT THE PREVAILING CONCERN FOR MOST, WITH OTHERS FOCUSING FAR MORE ON MAKING SURE THEY DIDN'T LOSE MASS MEMBERS AS THEY DID AFTER THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING AND WORRYING ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION LOOKING "WEAK" IF THEY WERE TO CANCEL.

>> THE MESSAGE THAT IT WILL SEND IS THAT EVEN THE N.R.A.

WAS BROUGHT TO ITS KNEES, AND-- AND THE MEDIA WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY WITH IT.

>> Braude: ANOTHER TOP CONCERN?

HOW SOME OF THE N.R.A's OWN MEMBERS MIGHT EMBARRASS THE ORGANIZATION IF THEY DECIDED TO PARE DOWN THE EVENT.

>> IF YOU PULL DOWN THE EXHIBIT HALL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO LEAVE ANYTHING FOR THE MEDIA EXCEPT THE MEMBERS MEETING, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE WACKOS-- WITH ALL KINDS OF CRAZY RESOLUTIONS, WITH ALL KINDS OF, OF DRESSING LIKE A BUNCH OF HILLBILLIES AND IDIOTS.

AND-- AND IT'S GOING TO, IT'S GOING TO BE THE WORST THING YOU CAN IMAGINE.

>> Braude: OF COURSE, THE OFFICIAL STANCE THE N.R.A.

ULTIMATELY TOOK AFTER COLUMBINE ESSENTIALLY CREATED THE PLAYBOOK FOR HOW THEY'VE RESPONDED TO THE MANY, MANY MASS SHOOTINGS SINCE: GUNS PROTECT PEOPLE AND ANY TALK OF LEGISLATIVE ACTION IN THE WAKE OF THESE MASS SHOOTINGS IS JUST PLAIN "INAPPROPRIATE."

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE MAN WHO BROUGHT THESE SECRET TAPES TO LIGHT, N.P.R.

WASHINGTON INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT TIM MAK, HIS NEW BOOK IS "MISFIRE: INSIDE THE DOWNFALL OF THE N.R.A."

TIM IT'S.

>> TO MEET YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: SO THEY REJECTED CANCELLATION BUT FOR A WHILE, THEY CONSIDERED WHAT WAS IT, $1 MILLION FOR THE VICTIMS.

WHY DID THEY REJECT THAT NOTION?

>> THERE WAS KIND OF THIS HINT OF A SOFTER APPROACH WHETHER CANCELLING THE CONVENTION, LIKE YOU SAY A MILLION DOLLAR VICTIM FUND FOR FOLKS AFFECTED BY COLUMBINE.

BUT AS YOU HEAR AND SEE THESE WHEELS IN MOTION AND THE NRA STRATEGY START TO LAND, WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT THE TOP STRATEGISTS AND OFFICIALS AT THE NRA FELT THAT IF THEY WERE TO PULL BACK IT WOULD BE SOME SORT OF ADMISSION OF COMPLICITY OR RESPONSIBILITY IN SOME WAY.

AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE OFF THAT IMPRESSION SO THEY COME WITH A MUCH MORE ALMOST DEFIANT APPROACH.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW THE NRA INSIDE OUT, PROBABLY AS MUCH AS PRACTICALLY ANYBODY.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE jóW(&E THEYX REFER TO THEIR ACTIVISTS AS HILLBILLIES AND IDIOTS, WOULD REACT TO BEING CALLEDG5 ORGANIZATION?

>> I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD ASSUME NOT WELL AT ALL.Ñi THE NRA'S LEADERSHIP IS STALLED IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

THEY ARE IN ANV LEGAL AND FINANCIAL TROUBLE.

EVEN BEFORE THIS TAPE WAS PUT OUT, THERE IS A LARGE SEGMENT OF ITS MEMBERSHIP ANGRY WITH THE NRA OVER ISSUESiV% OF TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT BY EXECUTIVES ON PRIVATEghMñ JETSZv AND LAVISH MEALS AND TRIPS TO EXOTIC LOCALS, LIKE THE BAHAMAS AND LAKE COMO IN ITALY.

>> Braude: AS I MENTION THE CONVENTION WAS JUST DOWN THE ROAD IN DENVER SHORTLY AFTER AND THIS STRATEGY THAT WAS AGREED UPON TO NEVER PLAY DEFENSE AS I WOULD CALL IT BUT TO GO ON THE OFFENSE, WAS VOICED BY THE THEN PRESIDENT OF THE NRA.

CHARLTON HESSTON.

HERE HE IS AT THAT CONVENTION.

>> WHEN AN ISOLATED, TERRIBLE EVENT OCCURS, OUR PHONES RING, DEMANDING THAT THE N.R.A.

EXPLAIN THE INEXPLICABLE.

WHY US?ñr BECAUSE THEIR STORY NEEDS A VILLAIN.

THE DIRTY SECRET OF THIS DAY AND AGE IS THAT POLITICAL GAIN AND MEDIA RATINGS ALL TOO OFTEN BLOOM ON FRESH GRAVES.E.

TODAY, CARNAGE COMES WITH A CATCHY TITLE, SPLASHY GRAPHICS, REGULAR PROMOS AND A REACTIONARY PASSAGE OF LEGISLATION.

>> Braude: YOU IN, I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS SURPRISED WHEN LISTENING TO THE TAPES, THEY WERE NOT WORRIED ABOUT A REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEMÑ.'

AFTER OKLAHOMA CITY, I BELIEVE IT ?9ñ FOUR YEARS EARLIER, PEOPLE RECALL, THEY REFER TO THE ALCOHOL FIRE AUDITORIUMS AS BLACK BOODED THUGS, BY THE WAY, WE SHOULD BE CLEAR A HALF MILLION MEMBERS LEFT THE ORGANIZATION, ONE WAS GEORGE H.W.

BUSH, THE TOMORROWER PRESIDENT.

WHY WOULD THEY BE NOT WORRIED THERE WOULD BE A MASS EXODUS AGAIN IF THEY SHOWED EMPATHY?

>> I THINK THEY WERE WORRIED THAT IF THEY SHOWED EMPATHY, THERE WOULD BE GREATER EXITS AND GREATER CONCERN.

IN THE WAKE OF COLUMBINE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEM COULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN WHAT HAPPENED TO NRA AFTER THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBINGS WHICH WAS A CATASTROPHE FOR THE ORGANIZATION.

>> Braude: IN THEIR PLAY BOOK, I KNOW YOU AGREE GOING FORWARD FROM COLUMBINE THERE WAS ONE BRIEF DEPARTURE AFTER SANDY HOOK AND I WAS ONE OF THE NAIVE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED THIS WOULD FINALLY CAUSE EVEN THE UNCARING SOULS IN CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING.

AFTER SANDY HOOK, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, AT LEAST FOR A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME, WASN'T THE NRA ON BOARD OR AT LEAST PART OF THE DISCUSSIONS AROUND THE TOOMEY MANSION, I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED TO JOE MANCHIN, WEREN'T THEY ON BOARD FOR A WHILE?

>> THE WAY I DESCRIBED IN MY BOOK MISFIRE, THEY WERE PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS IN THE MANCHIN TOOMEYYTOOMEY THEY PULLED OUT AT THE LAST SECOND.

AND MOBILIZED ITS MEMBERS AGAINST IT.

>> Braude: >> Braude: WHY?

MY THESIS,)#0ñ I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE NRA AS YOU DO, I HAVE BEEN SPOUTING FOR YEARS THAT THEY SHOULD PICK ONE ISSUE THAT REALLY DOESN'T UNDERMINE THEIR CORE MISSION, THEIR CLOSENESS WITH THE GUN MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY AND THEIR MEMBERS, SO THAT THEY CAN DANGLE THAT OUT FOREVER, TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE NOT UNCOMPROMISING, THEY ARE WILLING TO COME TO THE TABLE.

WHY DID THEY DECIDE TO BACK AWAY?

>> THEY WERE GETTING AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE FROM THEIR RIGHT.

THEIR RIGHT FLANK.5a THE MOST IDEOLOGICS7AL ONE OF THEIRS MEMBERS, WHO WERE BEGINNING TO MOBILIZE AGAINST THE NRA.

THE EXECUTIVES FELLS THEY COULD NOT CONTINUE ON THIS PATH.

THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS TENSION AMONG THE NRA AMONG THE LOBBYISTS AND THEIR ADVERTISING AND FUNDRAISING SIDE WHICH REALLY DOES GAIN A LOT FROM BEGINNING UP FEAR FROM THEIR MEMBERSHIP.

>> Braude: INSIDE YOUR BOOK, I KNOW YOU MENTIONED A WHILE AGO, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY THE EFFORT BY LETICIA, AND FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN GABBY GIFFORDS, WAS SHOT AS PEOPLE I'M SURE KNOW, AND ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS TO PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP AND A LOT OF THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS.

BUT IS THERE OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE THAT A DOWNFALL IS IN THE WORKS IN THE NRA?

>> I MEAN THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S INVESTIGATION AND LAWSUIT WITH THE NRA TARGETING THE NRA IS ANNAL EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE NRA.

HER OUTFIT IS SEEKING A RULING TO DISSOLVE THE ORGANIZATION.

THE LAWSUIT LAYS OUTS TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF MISCONDUCT AND ANY SPENDING BY WAYNE LA PIERRE AND SENIOR FOLKS INSIDE THE NRA.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF WAYNE LA PIERRE, I HAVEN'T READ YOUR BOOK YET BUT I HOPE TO READ IT THIS WEEKEND.

THE MYSTIQUE OF WAYNE LA PIERRE, AS THE TOUGH GUY WHO HAS BEEN ABLE TO STAY IN LEADERSHIP FOR THREE DECADES I THINK, AND THE LAST MINUTE WE HAVE CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE REAL WAYNE LA PIERRE BASED ON YOUR REPORTING?

>> THE OPENING SCENE OF MISFIRE IS AT WAYNE LA PIERRE'S WEDDING AND HE DOESN'T SHOW UP.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO GET MARRIED.

HIS BEST MAN SLAPS A $100 BILL ON THE DASHBOARD SAYING, HEY WE SHOULD GET OUT OF HERE, I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD GET MARRIED EITHER.

BUT HE GETS TALKED INTO IT, ALMOST HARANGUE ID INTO IT, BY HIS BROID.

AND HE CAN'T EVEN MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HER.

IF YOU TALK TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSEST WITH WAYNE LA FEE AIR, YOU FIND A PERSON THAT!##ñ CAN BE YELLED OUT, BERATED INTO AGREEING TO MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND SWEETHEARTok DEALS AND GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR FORMER OFFICIALS BUT THE FINANCIAL AND LEGAL PROBLEMS THAT THE NRA IS FACING REALLY STEM FROM THESE CHARACTER FLAWS OF WAYNE LA PIERRE WHO HAS BEEN HEAD OF THE ORGANIZATION AS YOU POINTED OUT FOR 30 YEARS.

>> Braude: HOW DOES HE, WITH HIS MILLION DOLLAR SALARY, HOW DOES IT MAINTAIN CONTROL?

>> MY THEORY OF THE CASE IS THAT HE'S, WITHIN HISS MALLEABLITY, HE HAS MADE HIMSELF INDISPENSABLE TO THE MANY PEOPLE IN AND AROUND THEó[ NRA MANY WHETHER IT'S BOARD MEMBERS OR VENDORS WHO ARE MAKING A KILLING.

>> Braude: TIM, I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR BOOK, THOSE TAPES YOU WERE ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF, WERE EXPLOSIVE, A HORRIBLE CHOICE OF WORDS.

THANKS-9 SO MUCH, LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING AGAIN.

TIM'S BOOK AGAIN IS "MISFIRE: INSIDE THE DOWNFALL OF THE N.R.A."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org