GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: The deal to# end the longest .. U.S.

history now sits in the hands# of the House of Representatives.

GEOFF BENNETT: A prominent# conservative judge resigns## to protest what he calls President# Trump's assault on the rule of law.

MARK WOLF, Former U.S.

District Court# Judge: This president repeatedly,## overtly directs the Department of Justice to# prosecute his perceived political enemies.

AMNA NAWAZ: And our series Rethinking# College explores how universities## are trying to navigate unprecedented# demands from the Trump administration.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

The longest ever U.S.

government# shutdown is on the verge of ending,## but not for at least one more day.

GEOFF BENNETT: And while a deal to reopen# the government passed the Senate last night,## there are still plenty of# questions about what comes next.

Let's turn now to congressional# correspondent Lisa Desjardins.

All right, Lisa D., what is the latest?

LISA DESJARDINS: OK, as we speak, members of# the House of Representatives are making the.. way by plane, car, one by motorcycle because# they expect to vote on this deal tomorrow.

And part of that, there will be one new# member in the House of Representatives.## That is Adelita Grijalva.

She is the# elected representative from Arizona## who has not been sworn in.

Speaker Johnson# has refused to swear her in, the Democrat,## over the shutdown.

That's a bigger story,# but it will affect the voting tomorrow.

Now the House.

Let's look at# exactly what the situation is;## 219 Republicans to 214 Democrats is what# will be in place.

Republicans therefore## can just spare two votes in order to get# this shutdown bill through without help.## Democratic leaders don't want to give them that# help.

They are telling Democrats to vote no.

So this will be close.

A reminder, the House# tomorrow will be the first time it has met in 53## days.

That is almost a modern record.

At the same# time, the country is still feeling the shutdown.## Today, for example, we know there are some 1,200# flights canceled.

Thousands more were delayed,## air traffic controllers today missing# their second paycheck, full paycheck.

Overall, Geoff, three million paychecks# have gone missing during this shutdown.## It has been unprecedented, not# just in length, but also breadth.

GEOFF BENNETT: And we have just# learned the Supreme Court has## extended the judge's order allowing the# Trump administration not to fully fund## those SNAP benefits, those food stamp benefits.

So you have read through this bill, the# entirety of it.

What else does it say?

LISA DESJARDINS: OK, a few things.# One thing that stuck out is those## mass layoffs that the administration# put into place during the shutdown.## They must be reversed within five# days, the bill says, so very quickly.

Now, other things.

There's a tremendous# amount of spending in this bill on security,## especially for members of Congress and officials,# upwards of $400 million.

Members of Congress## themselves, each office will get a million# dollars or more, depending on the office,## for their personal security, the Supreme# Court also getting security in this.

One other thing I want to point out,# the hemp industry.

I mentioned this## last night.

There was an attempt to reverse# this, but the final bill does contain a ban## on unregulated hemp with THC in it.

That industry# says that will crush it.

So we have to see what## economic effect that has, but that's something# that looks like it's going to go through.

GEOFF BENNETT: And what's all this# mean for the health care debate,## the Affordable Care Act subsidies?

LISA DESJARDINS: Yes, there's a lot to# say there.

There are early talks under## way already.

One person to watch is# New Hampshire Senator Jeanne Shaheen.## She's one of those Democrats# who voted to end the shutdown.

Now, she's having early talks.

They're# just looking at options.

The question is,## which Republicans are truly open to talking to# them?

I have spoken to some Republicans who say,## we really do want to get to# something by December.

They,## of course, want to change the entire system.# There is a chance for dialogue in the Senate.

In the House, we don't know if anything# can move.

Speaker Johnson has refused to## say he will even hold a vote on health# care.

So we will watch that closely.

GEOFF BENNETT: The longest government# shutdown in U.S.

history, what emerging## lessons are there for lawmakers# both practically and politically?

LISA DESJARDINS: One thing we have had is# a lot of time to think about this shutdown,## right?

I'm not sure our lawmakers are# thinking about it in quite the same way,## but it's significant not just in its length,# but also because of the troubling trend.

I looked at all the recent past shutdowns.# So look at this.

Notice something about the## shutdowns we have been seeing.

They have been# happening in clusters, one or two at a time,## and they have been growing.

That one on the# end is the current one, 43 days.

And I raise## this because of course, this shutdown solution# means there will be another need in January,## another time when Democrats, if they are not happy# on health care, could threaten a shutdown again.

And we have seen this trend.

Why does that# matter even more?

There's a deeper problem here,## a lack of leadership in some ways, and also# a vacuum where Congress has been giving away## its power.

We see these men and women# who've been elected to legislate trying## to legislate by doing -- by blocking the# one power they have, to fund government.

It's really an issue of balance of# power, and favoring the executive.

GEOFF BENNETT: Lisa Desjardins,# our thanks to you, as always.

LISA DESJARDINS: You're welcome.

AMNA NAWAZ:#The day's other headline starts in January with#a small town newspaper and a big legal victory.

The editor of The Marion County Record in# Kansas says the county government will pay## $3 million and will formally apologize# for a raid on the paper back in 2023.## Police raided their offices as part of# an investigation into whether the paper## committed identity theft and illegally accessed# information in reporting a story which it denied.

The incident sparked an outcry over# press freedom and prosecutors later## concluded no crime was committed by# the paper's publisher or its staff.

Democrats in Congress are# celebrating news from Utah,## where a judge adopted a new electoral map that# will create a Democratic-leaning district.## Judge Dianna Gibson rejected a proposal from# Republicans, who currently hold all four of## the state's U.S.

House seats, saying their# map -- quote -- "unduly favors Republicans."

Instead, the new map will keep Salt Lake# County almost entirely within one district,## rather than it being split into four.# The result gives Democrats a chance## to pick up a seat in next year's# midterm elections, as they try to## counter Republican redistricting efforts in# states like Texas, Missouri, and elsewhere.

The Justice Department says it will investigate# security at U.C.

Berkeley after protests outside a## Turning Point USA event last night led to several# arrests.

Turning Point posted this video from the## scene, comparing it to a war zone and claiming# that an Antifa member lit a flare in the crowd.

Police made at least four arrests,# though some of those were off campus.## The head of the DOJ's Civil Rights# Division posted that her agency## sees -- quote -- "several issues of serious# concern regarding campus and local security.

"## Yesterday's Turning Point event was# its last stop on a nationwide college## tour following the group's co-founder,# Charlie Kirk, being killed in September.

In Pakistan's capital of Islamabad, a# suicide bomber targeted a district court,## killing at least 12 people and injuring# dozens more.

Hundreds of people attending## court hearings fled from the site of the# blast.

A breakaway faction of the Pakistani## Taliban initially claimed responsibility, but,# soon after, its commander denied the claims.

Pakistan's interior minister, Mohsin Naqvi,# says the police discovered remains belonging## to the alleged attacker and that the suspect was# captured on CCTV footage before the explosion.

MOHSIN NAQVI, Pakistani Interior# Minister (through translator):## We are treating the injured in hospitals# and our te.. best available facilities.

The suspect stood# there for 15 minutes.

He even tried to enter## the court premises, but, failing to# do so, targeted a police vehicle.

AMNA NAWAZ: Naqvi also alleged that the attack# was carried out by -- quote -- "Indian-backed## elements and Afghan Taliban proxies," but# did not provide evidence.

Tensions remain## high between Pakistan and Afghanistan# as recent peace talks are stalled.

Meanwhile, in India, a deadly car explosion# in New Delhi is being investigated under an## anti-terrorism law, giving authorities# broader powers to detain suspects.## The attack occurred near the historic# Red Fort in a densely populated area,## killing at least eight people# and injuring several others.

Police believe the blast originated from a car at# a traffic stop.

They're trying to trace its owner.## Prime Minister Narendra Modi on a visit# to Bhutan called the blast a conspiracy,## saying those responsible will not be spared.

Back in this country, organic baby formula# maker ByHeart is now recalling all of its## products nationwide days after some of# its batches were pulled over links to## infant botulism.

At least 15 babies in# 12 states have been hospitalized since## August after consuming the company's# powdered formula.

According to the CDC,## all infants were less than 6 months old# and no fatalities have been reported.

Infant botulism is caused by a type of bacteria## that produces a toxin in the large# intestine.

It can lead to serious## illness and even paralysis.

Parents are# urged to seek medical help immediately.

On Wall Street today, stocks ended mixed amid# ongoing worries about an A.I.

bubble.

The## Dow Jones industrial average surged more# than 500 points to a new all-time high.## The Nasdaq lost ground, slipping about 60# points.

The S&P 500 posted a modest gain.

And President Trump led tributes to the# nation's veterans today at Arlington## National Cemetery.

The president laid# a wreath alongside Vice President J.D.## Vance and Veterans Affairs Secretary Doug# Collins.

Trump then delivered remarks that## touched on political themes and he restated his# commitment to calling the occasion Victory Day.

The holiday marks the end of World War I and is# celebrated in some other countries as Remembrance## Day or Armistice Day.

French President Emmanuel# Macron marked the occasion at the Arc de Triomphe## in Paris, and Britain's Queen Camilla led# a service at Paddington Station in London.

Still to come on the "News Hour": President Trump# considers giving Americans tariff dividends,## but does the math add up?

; the BBC comes under# legal scrutiny over an edit of Trump's speech on## January 6; and a look back on the sinking of the# Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior 50 years on.

Mark Wolf, a Reagan-appointed federal judge,## is resigning after four decades on the# bench, and he's sounding the alarm.

In an essay published by "The Atlantic" this week,## he wrote -- quote -- "The White House's# assault on the rule of law is so deeply## disturbing to me that I feel compelled to# speak out.

Silence for me is now intolerable."

Judge Wolf shared additional context and more of# his concerns when I spoke with him earlier today.

Judge Wolf, welcome to the "News# Hour."

Thank you for joining us.

MARK WOLF, Former U.S.

District# Court Judge: Thank you for the## opportunity to speak with you and# .. AMNA NAWAZ: And I should say you have# spent 50 years with the Department of## Justice and on the bench.

You have seen# a lot of presidents come and go.

What## is so worrying about this moment and this# president that made you want to speak out?

MARK WOLF: Well, I think this president# is unique and uniquely dangerous.

When a new president is elected, he or she is# entitled to set priorities for the Department## of Justice.

But we have an ideal that's crucial# to me and many others of equal justice under law.

And this president repeatedly, overtly# directs the Department of Justice to## prosecute his perceived political# enemies at the same time that the## Department of Justice is not investigating# possible corruption by people close to the## president and people who are doing things# to profit the president and his family.

So that's utterly inconsistent with, as I said,## this fundamental principle of equal justice# under law, to which I have dedicated my## professional life for 50 years.

And it's# personal to me.

It's deeply disturbing.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, from your time in the# Department of Justice during Watergate,## you have seen presidents push the# limits of power.

You also seen## the guardrails hold.

Why are you# worried that they won't hold now?

MARK WOLF: Well, I'm worried# in part because I think## all of the abuse that's been showered on# the courts and the judges is causing people## to lose confidence in the integrity and# the impartiality of the judicial process.

When the Supreme Court ordered Richard# Nixon to turn over the tapes he made## secretly in the Oval Office that had incriminating# information about him and his close colleagues,## he understood that he had to obey that order# because the American people would not tolerate## disobedience and he would have# been impeached and removed.

I'm not sure, I'm not confident# that that would occur today,## because when judges like my colleagues# rule against the president, he says## that they're corrupt and they should be impeached.# And the judges are not in a position to respond,## except by continuing to do their# work with integrity and impartially.

But I'm afraid that that's not a message# that's getting to the American people.

AMNA NAWAZ: From your conversations# with your fellow judges,## do others share these concerns?# How widely held is this concern?

MARK WOLF: We don't discuss particular cases,# but I would say that this concern is widely held.

The judges work hard.

The criticism from# the president, I believe, doesn't influence## the way any cases are being decided by# any judge that I know.

We or now they## do their work and hope it speaks# for itself.

But it is disturbing## to be called crooked, not because# it hurts your feelings, but because,## when that doesn't get answered, many# people might think you really are crooked.

And, indeed, the president's vitriolic# comments have coincided with threats of harm,## death threats, among others,# to many federal judges.

And## people are genuinely concerned.

Judges# are genuinely concerned about that and## concerned for their families and the# anxiety this is causing their families.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, it's also true, as you# know, Judge, that the president's been## known to publicly go after his critics.

You are# now giving national interviews criticizing him.## Have you thought about what happens or are# you worried that he might come after you?

MARK WOLF: I recognize there's a risk of that.

And I'm 79 years old.

I have been threatened# at times in my career.

But I have had a very## meaningful life, a fulfilling# life.

If I may get personal,## I will say my grandmother crossed (INAUDIBLE)# in a covered wagon as a teenage orphan.

My father in the Great Depression was admitted# to Harvard, couldn't afford to go.

I have had## an excellent education.

I have had very# meaningful opportunities for fulfilling## public service.

I would like my grandchildren# and everybody's grandchildren to have similar## opportunities for life, liberty and the pursuit# of happiness, as they define it, that I have had.

And I certainly hope that neither I nor anybody# close to me is harmed because of what I'm doing.## But I do really think that we shouldn't be# intimidated.

And if there's the opportunity## to contribute, because I don't expect I'm going to# make a difference myself, but if I can contribute,## working with others, including others who urge me# to leave the bench and join them in this effort to## protect our rule of law and our democracy that's# long made the United States the world's best hope,## I feel compelled to try to contribute# to that, despite the foreseeable risks.

AMNA NAWAZ: Judge, you have said that# you believe democracy is in peril here,## and a lot of folks will see that as hyperbole.# They will say, look, we have a duly elected## president.

Any challenges to his policies# are making their way through the courts.

The## administration says that they abide by the rule# of law and that they abide by judges' orders.

For people who are not necessarily worried about# democracy day to day, what's at stake here?

MARK WOLF: First of all, the president may say# that all court orders are being faithfully obeyed.## Responsible media report that it appears that many# of them are not being obeyed or properly obeyed.

And, basically, democracy is the rule of# law.

And if court orders are disobeyed,## then the president has absolute power.

Judges# don't have armies to enforce their orders.

They## rely on the support of the American people who# want to live in a true democracy.

If they want to## have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,# as they define it, then I think you need courts## that will hold elected officials to the limits# of the power delegated to them from the people.

That's the promise of the Declaration# of Independence, and particularly## the Constitution.

We, the people, have# delegated some power to elected officials,## including the presidents, and the# responsibility of the courts, in part,## is to hold those officials to the# limits of that delegated power.

Otherwise, we're going to live in the kind of# autocracy that I have seen around the world,## where people are oppressed because there's# no restraint on the elected officials.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is retired federal# Judge Mark Wolf joining us tonight.

Judge Wolf, thank you for your# time.

It's good to speak with you.

MARK WOLF: Thank you very much.

GEOFF BENNETT:## Since taking office in January, the Trump# administration has moved to reshape higher## education, cutting off funding, and issuing a# series of executive orders targeting diversity## programs, transgender rights, and how universities# handle investigations into antisemitism.

While some schools have reached settlements# with the administration, others are navigating## the academic year squarely in the federal# government's crosshairs, including the University## of California, Los Angeles, where Stephanie# Sy reports for our series Rethinking College.

AMY THAN, Graduate Student, UCLA: Students can# work in any department within the UCLA system.

STEPHANIE SY: During the first days# of the fall quarter, undergraduates,## including many freshmen, get# advice on applying to join one## of the hundreds of research labs at the# University of California, Los Angeles.

AMY THAN: When you reach out to faculty, CC# their grad students and their lab managers.

STEPHANIE SY: Amy Than is# a Ph.D.

student and mentor## with the Undergraduate Research Center at UCLA.

AMY THAN: You can see from the# students that leave these talks,## they're so enthusiastic.

It's like everything# is in flux, I think.

That's the vibe, in flux.

STEPHANIE SY: The Trump administration's# freezing of nearly $600 million in federal## grants has cast a cloud of uncertainty# over one of the nation's most prestigious## public research universities.

The penalty# for what the administration says was a## hostile environment for Jewish and Israeli# students was announced over the summer.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: Some of these schools are## getting billions and billions of dollars,# an.. so one way or the other, we're# going to win that whole thing.

STEPHANIE SY: Now, funding disruptions# could trickle down at UCLA, including## to many of the 4,000 undergrads# involved in research labs here.

LINDSEY YOUNG, Undergraduate Student,# UCLA: UCLA is such a big campus and I## believe it's really important to the state of# California.

Hopefully, it's not too impacted.

JAIVIN PHABIANI, Undergraduate Student,# UCLA: It's a little concerning about## whether labs are going to take as# many students as they were before.

DANNY NGUYEN, Undergraduate Student,# UCLA: We're being punished for things## that aren't related to science.

STEPHANIE SY: Danny Nguyen# is a fourth-year undergrad## who works in a lab studying the# way emotions influence memory.

Does it worry you that there may be# fewer positions and fewer opportunities## if these grant cuts are to go through?

DANNY NGUYEN: Yes, the importance# of having lucrative grants is that## we're able to subsidize our Ph.D.# students, our graduate students,## but also to train the next wave of graduate# students at the undergraduate level.

STEPHANIE SY: In September,# a federal judge ordered the## Trump administration to unfreeze# most of the suspended grants,## but with litigation ongoing and federal# officials demanding more than $1 billion,## university leaders say they're facing one of# the gravest threats ever to the U.C.

system.

DAVID MYERS, Professor, UCLA: We are being faced## with what I can only think of as a kind# of mafia-style shakedown of $1.2 billion.

STEPHANIE SY: David Myers is a professor# of Jewish history at UCLA.

In August,## he co-authored an open letter on# behalf of many Jews at the university,## calling the administration's# demands misguided and punitive.

DAVID MYERS: I think there's actually# a very wide consensus in the Jewish## community the notion that stripping UCLA# of research funding in the medical and## health fields will in some way help with the# struggle against antisemitism is delusional.

STEPHANIE SY: In the wake of large and sometimes# violent confrontations in the spring of 2024, the## university created new guidelines on protests and# established an initiative to combat antisemitism.

And, in July, it settled a lawsuit# with Jewish students and a professor## who argued protesters violated their civil rights.

If this, as you call it, mafia-style# shakedown succeeds, what will it mean## for this institution, for# academia, for this country?

DAVID MYERS: I think it will mean the end# of the golden age of higher education in## the United States.

Universities# and colleges have been gateways## of opportunity for so many people.

So I# think it is an extremely ominous moment.

STEPHANIE SY: The moment is# reverberating among students on campus.

MALEEYAH FRAZIER, Undergraduate Student, UCLA:# From my freshman year to when Trump was elected,## I think a lot of us kind of walked# around, like, hesitant.

Like,## we don't know where we stand in higher# education.

It's just very scary times.

STEPHANIE SY: Maleeyah Frazier is chairperson# of the African Students Union at UCLA.## She sees the attack on science funding as# just one part of a broader shift in higher## ed policy, including Trump's termination of# diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.

MALEEYAH FRAZIER: I kind of worry that# students that look like me kind of won't## be -- won't feel like they deserve or# really know what higher education is or## know that they can also go to college# or they belong in universities too.

STEPHANIE SY: At UCLA, Maleeyah says the# school is scrutinizing long-running peer## counseling programs for marginalized communities.

DONALD TRUMP: I ended all of# the lawless so-called diversity,## equity and inclusion bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(CHEERING) STEPHANIE SY: More than 400 college camp.. closing DEI offices and student centers to ending# or revising criteria for race-based scholarships.

The Trump administration has also# intensified investigations under## Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, alleging# failure to combat antisemitism and claiming## diversity initiatives are discriminatory.# Linda McMahon is the secretary of education.

LINDA MCMAHON, U.S.

Education Secretary: Our# goal is really not to be punitive necessarily,## but to have universities, I think# return to what we all believe that## universities really started out to# being.

And that was it is a place## for truth seekers.

It is a place for# open debate, sharing of ideas of truth.

DAVID GONZALEZ, Assistant Project Scientist,# UCLA: My hours got cut.

Salary got cut in half.

STEPHANIE SY: David Gonzalez studies the# health effects of pollution and wildfire## smoke in a lab at UCLA.

In April, his National# Institutes of Health grant was canceled in a## purge of diversity-focused initiatives.

That# grant was restored in a court case, only to be## frozen again in the broader cuts announced# this summer and restored again by a judge.

DAVID GONZALEZ: Got the "Sorry to inform you,# you don't have this anymore" message twice.

STEPHANIE SY: Gonzalez graduated from undergrad,# completed his Ph.D.

and his postdoc at UCLA.## He worries that those opportunities may# be closing for those coming behind him.

DAVID GONZALEZ: I didn't really come from a# family where I knew what a Ph.D.

route was,## right?

And what was great about UCLA is, there# was a lot of faculty here that would encourage,## hey, as an undergrad, these are things# you can do.

You can do research.

I think that the availability# of more senior researchers like## graduate students and postdocs to# take on undergrads and mentor them## is what's going to suffer.

And that# is kind of a linchpin in that process.

STEPHANIE SY: Second-year student Jayha Buhs# Jackson worries about the university's future.

JAYHA BUHS JACKSON, Undergraduate Student,# UCLA: You can look inward and you can see## like this is any other college campus.

We# have kids walking around, getting classes,## getting their coffee.

But I think# internally there's a lot dropping with,## what is the university going to# look like a couple months from now?

STEPHANIE SY: Jayha signed a letter with# other student leaders across the state## urging U.C.

officials not to cut a deal with the# administration.

Trump's demands include not only## $1 billion in fines, but assurances that UCLA will# not admit foreign students who are likely to be --## quote -- "anti-Western," allow an outside monitor# and ban transgender students from women's sports.

JAYHA BUHS JACKSON: UCLA needs to have --# retain their backbone and not settle at all.

STEPHANIE SY: For history professor David Myers,## the notion that science is a public good is# at stake and, he worries, maybe even more.

DAVID MYERS: How far off is the day when someone# will be reviewing my syllabus and telling me,## this reading is permitted, that's not?

When# I thought of it over the last couple weeks,## it did not seem to be a distant# fantasy.

It seemed like that## could be realized in the next two or three# years, especially if a settlement is struck.

STEPHANIE SY: Others have already settled.# And what the University of California does## or does not agree to could have# impacts far beyond UCLA's campus.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm# Stephanie Sy in Los Angeles.

AMNA NAWAZ:## President Trump doubled down this week on an# idea to send $2,000 rebate checks to tens of## millions of Americans.

He floated the notion# this weekend and has offered no specifics.## But the president suggested that the government# could send that money to low- and middle-income## Americans and still have enough tariff revenue# left to make a dent in the national debt.

Most experts say that that math doesn't add up.

To help us get some clarity on the# numbers, we're joined now by Erica## York.

She's vice president of federal# tax policy at the Tax Foundation.

Erica, welcome to the "News# Hour."

Thanks for joining us.

ERICA YORK, Vice President of Federal Tax# Policy, Tax Foundation: Thanks for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: So let's begin with those tariffs.

The White House said back# in September that tariffs## had raised $8 trillion in revenue.

But, yesterday,## the president cited some different figures.# Here's what he had to say in the Oval Office.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: This is trillions of dollars## we're talking about in terms of the tariff# income and all the inves.. come into our country.

We have more than -- I# would say, right now, more than $18 trillion.

AMNA NAWAZ: Erica, do those figures line# up with any data you have been able to see?

ERICA YORK: No.

The Treasury Dep.. billion for the federal government.

That, of# course, includes preexisting tariffs, as well## as the new tariffs that the president has imposed# this year.

If you break it down further using data## from CBP, those new tariffs have generated about# $117 billion of collections for the Treasury.

AMNA NAWAZ: Those numbers are way off from# what we're hearing from the president and## White House.

Do you know where their figures# are coming from or what they're based on?

ERICA YORK: I am not entirely sure.

They are# very high compared to the actual revenues that## we have seen come in.

They're high even compared# to projections of revenues over the next decade.

At Tax Foundation, we estimate that# all the tariffs will raise about## $2.4 trillion over the coming decade, so still# a mismatch there.

I think part of what explains## the difference is that the president is# precounting things that are very separate## from tariff revenues, precounting promises# of investments made by foreign countries.

So we have heard of these investment# pledges, that a country might invest## $100 billion or $300 billion into the U.S.# economy.

That, of course, would be private## sector investment, very different from# tax collections that flow to Treasury.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I know you and# your colleagues have looked into## the impact of those tariffs on# Americans.

What have you found?

ERICA YORK: We have found that the tariffs are a# net negative for the U.S.

economy.

So we estimate,## overall, the economy will shrink# by about 0.6 percent if the tariffs## remain in place.

There will be more# than 600,000 fewer full-time jobs.

And the tariffs add up to a tax burden on U.S.# households of an average of between $1,200 and## $1,600.

So, whether that is experienced# through higher prices that we have to pay## at the store or whether it's experienced# through higher costs at businesses, dragging## down hiring and dragging down wage growth,# the real burden lies with American taxpayers.

AMNA NAWAZ: And we know some of that# seems to be fueling this conversation## around affordability and this proposal of# these $2,000 checks that the president is## talking about.

Take a listen to how# we framed that yesterday in the Oval.

DONALD TRUMP: We're going to issue a dividend# to our middle-income people and lower-income## people of about $2,000.

And we're going to# use the remaining tariffs to lower our debt.

AMNA NAWAZ: Erica, is a plan like that realistic?## And do we have any idea how much# something like that would cost?

ERICA YORK: It doesn't seem like it adds up.

So we don't know exactly who would# qualify for these checks.

But if## it would be something similar# to the COVID relief payments,## the minimum cost would be about $300 billion.# That would be if the cutoff was set at $100,000## and all adults making under that amount got a# $2,000 check.

It would cost about $300 billion.

So you could easily see the cost go up from there# if children qualify, if the income phase-out is## higher.

And that $300 billion minimum price tag# compares to about, like I mentioned earlier,## $120 billion of tariff collections through# September.

So even a even a narrowly targeted## rebate would use up all of the collections# so far, would have to be deficit-financed.

And that leaves no money left over to reduce# the deficit or begin to pay down the debt.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, let me ask you about# the other claim there the president## made about the tariff revenue helping to# significantly pay down the national debt.

The national debt for the country currently# stands at $38 trillion.

By your math,## that's about 200 times the revenue that's# actually been brought in by the tariffs so## far.

Is there any path you see towards tariff# revenue going to pay down the national debt?

ERICA YORK: There's not a path for that,## particularly when you take a broader look at# all of the policies of the Trump administration.

So, this summer, Trump signed into# law the One Big Beautiful Bill Act.## That was major tax cut legislation.# It did include some spending cuts,## but that was a law that increases the# deficit.

We have heard the president's## advisers say that tariff revenues will help# pay down that price tag for the tax cut law.

Well, tariff revenues won't earn enough to fully# pay for that tax cut law, let alone pay for these## $2,000 checks and pay for reducing the debt.

So# there's just not a viable path to use tax-like## tariffs to reduce the debt or even to minimize the# deficit that the government runs year after year.

AMNA NAWAZ: And, Erica, the tariffs that are# currently being challenged in a case before## the Supreme Court, how much of that tariff revenue# that you cited earlier is part of that challenge?## And what is the impact if the Supreme Court# rules against the administration in that case?

ERICA YORK: The emergency tariffs being# challenged at the Supreme Court account## for about three-fourths of the tariff# revenues that have been collected and## would be collected over the coming decade under# all of the new levies that Trump has imposed.

So if the Supreme Court ultimately decides that# those emergency-related tariffs are illegal,## it wipes out three-fourths of that revenue# generation.

Now, it's likely that the president## would pursue other authorities to try to continue# imposing some of those tariffs, but the remaining## authorities that he has are not as broad as# what has been done under this emergency law.

So the threshold of revenue that# could be raised would be much## lower than what we have seen come# in under these emergency tariffs.

AMNA NAWAZ: All right, that is# Erica York of the Tax Foundation.

Thank you so much for offering some clarity# on the numbers.

We appreciate your time.

ERICA YORK: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT:## President Trump is threatening# to sue the BBC for $1 billion,## claiming the broadcaster misrepresented# his role in the January 6 Capitol attack.

According to Mr.

Trump's legal team,## a BBC documentary that aired ahead# of the 2024 presidential election cut## together remarks made by Mr.

Trump to make# it appear as if he urged his supporters to,## in his words, fight like hell immediately after# directing them to march to the U.S.

Capitol.

In reality, the two lines came more than 50# minutes apart.

The fallout has been swift.## Following the controversy and mounting# backlash over perceived bias at the BBC,## two of the broadcaster's most senior executives## resigned.

That's director-general Tim Davie# and BBC news chief executive Deborah Turness.

Turness defended the BBC's reputation# while speaking to reporters this week.

DEBORAH TURNESS, Former CEO, BBC News:# I stepped down over the weekend because## the buck stops with me.

But I'd like to# make one thing very clear.

BBC News is not## institutionally biased.

That's why it's# the world's most trusted news provider.

GEOFF BENNETT: And we're joined now by# Brian Stelter, chief media analyst for CNN.

Brian, it's always good to see# you.

Thanks for being with us.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN Chief# Media Correspondent: Thanks.

GEOFF BENNETT: So this documentary .. of the BBC's reporting operation.

Help us# understand more about this editorial breach,## the edit itself and why President Trump and# his supporters are saying it misled viewers.

BRIAN STELTER: That's right.

This is an# important program on the BBC schedule.

And this documentary aired right before# the U.S.

presidential election.

It was## a documentary about Trump's reelection campaign# called "Trump: A Second Chance."

It interviewed## Trump voters.

It really featured the voices# of voters in America.

I actually think,## if the Trump White House watched the documentary,# they would find a lot to like in the documentary.

But there was this moment where the January 6# video was shown, Trump's speech at the Ellipse was## shown, and it was edited in a way that was clearly# a big screw-up.

I would call this a big screw-up,## a big journalistic screw up, but in a very# small, narrow way, because it was one small## part of a long documentary, and, most importantly,# because nobody seemed to notice it at the time.

There was no outcry last year.

There was no# outrage.

This only became a story about a week## ago when a leaked memo, it was obtained by the# Telegraph newspaper, exposing what went wrong## in this documentary.

Now Trump is calling for a# retraction of the entire documentary, but, like## I said, it's a really thoughtful, nuanced film# with just one big mistake involving January 6.

GEOFF BENNETT: And stepping back,# we know the established timeline.## We know all of the testimony about what# Donald Trump did not do on January 6,## his inaction as the violence unfolded, his# delay in calling in the National Guard.

How does the factual record bear on his claim that# the BBC edit distorted the meaning of his words?

BRIAN STELTER: Yes, and Trump's behavior that day,## his combative tone in the speech,# his repeated references to fight,## all of that contributed to the producers'# decision to stitch these words together.

There's no indication that it was malicious,# meaning it wasn't intended to interfere## with the U.S.

election.

But it was something# that happened during the production process,## possibly by an outside production# company.

We don't exactly know how## it was reviewed by the BBC ahead of# time or who ultimately is responsible.

But, as you mentioned, those two top# executives have now both resigned as## a result of the uproar.

And, more broadly, for# President Trump, this is a chance to challenge a## big media company.

And it's a chance for him to# proclaim his innocence about January 6.

I think## that's why this story is resonated with many# Trump voters and certainly with Trump aides.

They're trying to argue that# Trump did nothing wrong that## day and it's actually the media's fault.

GEOFF BENNETT: How seriously is the BBC# taking this $1 billion lawsuit threat?

BRIAN STELTER: My sense is, it's a very# serious threat inside the BBC.

There's a## lot of concern.

Staffers are worried# about what the board is going to do.## And we haven't heard much about the# plan within the Board of Governors.

There are 13 board members# who oversee the BBC.

Normally,## one of those members is the director# general, the man who just resigned,## who just stepped down.

And now the Trump lawyers# have given this Friday deadline.

There's not## actually a literal deadline.

I mean, the BBC# doesn't have to respond for any legal reason.

But it does seem likely that Trump might move# ahead with a lawsuit if he doesn't get what## he wants from the BBC.

And so now the BBC is# in the same position that Paramount was in,## that Disney was in, that The New# York Times and The Wall Street## Journal are in right now.

Trump# is suing both those publications.

Every media company, when challenged by Trump,# has to ask, do we fight or do we fold?

Do we## fight in court or do we give in to his demands?# And that's what the BBC board has to decide now.

GEOFF BENNETT: And conservative critics in the# U.K.

are alleging a systemic left-wing bias## at the BBC.

What does all of this mean for the# BBC's international reporting and its reputation?

BRIAN STELTER: Right.

Three things are going on# simultaneously.

You have this actual journalistic## scandal about a bad edit, a big mistake,# but in a small part of a big documentary.

Then you also have this concerted political# campaign, mostly from conservatives in the U.K.,## to undermine the BBC, to challenge# its dominance in Britain.

You also## have some of the BBC's big media rivals# who are feasting right now on the BBC,## and sometimes maybe trying to even# gain or steal some market share.

And then the third thing going on, of# course, is the BBC's business model,## under tremendous pressure right now.

The license# fees that it receives from British taxpayers might## be challenged in the coming years.

You know,# that's what makes the BBC unique in Britain.## It's the license fee structure.

It's the# idea that everybody pays into the system.

And that is under a real threat right now# because of this political campaign.

But,## look, when a newsroom at the BBC makes a# self-inflicted wound, a screw-up like this,## it does draw all the wrong kind# of attention to the organization## more broadly.

And that's what we're seeing# right now from Trump and everywhere else.

GEOFF BENNETT: Can I ask you, based# on your reporting, how realistic is## a successful defamation claim here# against a U.K.

public broadcaster?

BRIAN STELTER: Not very realistic# at all.

Whether this was filed in## the U.K.

or whether it's filed in# Florida or some other U.S.

state,## Trump likely has a very weak case here.

And the# BBC would have a very strong argument in court.

But that's, I think, not really the question.

The# question is whether the BBC is willing to risk it,## whether it's willing to go to court or# not.

We have seen some media companies## try to settle with Trump, try to make him# go away, either by paying money toward his## future presidential library or# by changing editorial coverage.

And that's the big concern I'm hearing from# BBC staffers now.

Will the corporation stand## up to Trump, try to mount a defense, reject his# demands for a retraction and for an apology?

Or## will the BBC try to reach some sort of# deal, try to appease him in some way?

I know, Geoff, we have covered several of these# cases this year, and what we have learned,## I think, is that when media companies do# appease, when they appear to capitulate,## there is severe consumer backlash.# Just ask Disney with Jimmy Kimmel.

On the other hand, the BBC has to think about# many factors here, including board members who## might be more conservative in thinking, and of# course, the future of the license fee system.

GEOFF BENNETT: Brian Stelter, chief media# analyst for CNN, always good to see you.

BRIAN STELTER: Thanks.

AMNA NAWAZ:## This week marks 50 years since the S.S.# Edmund Fitzgerald sank while crossing## Lake Superior.

The shipwreck,# which killed all 29 men aboard,## became the most well-known wreck# to ever occur on the Great Lakes.

William Brangham recently spoke# with the author of a new book## that explores both the tragedy and# the enduring legend it inspired.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: When the Edmund# Fitzgerald first launched in 1958,## it quickly became the pride of the Great# Lakes, a mammoth ship measuring almost## 730 feet from bow to stern.

It made# hundreds of trips, moving mostly tons## of iron ore from mines in Minnesota to# the steel mills of Detroit and Toledo.

On November 9, 1975, the Fitz, as she was# known, took off from a port near Duluth,## Minnesota.

It was supposed to be her last run of# the season, but a storm was brewing and headed## for the Great Lakes.

To avoid the worst of it,# the Fitzgerald's captain decided to steer the## ship off its normal course, moving north to# get some shelter along the Canadian shore.

On the afternoon of the 10th, it started# to turn toward Whitefish Point at the far## southeast corner of Lake Superior.

Winds# were gusting up to 100 miles an hour,## pushing what could have been 60-foot# waves.

The Fitzgerald lost its radar,## sustained some structural damage, and# began to list or lean to one side.

Bernie Cooper was captain# of the S.S.

Arthur Anderson,## which was trailing several miles# behind the Fitzgerald that night.

BERNIE COOPER, Captain, S.S.

Arthur Anderson:# Those two seas were the biggest we ever had,## and I just wonder if those two seas# didn't catch up to the Fitzgerald.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The night of November 10,# the Edmund Fitzgerald sank in the frigid## waters of Lake Superior, just 17 miles# from safety.

Today, the ship still sits## at the bottom of the lake, more than 500# feet down.

No bodies were ever recovered.

Less than a year after the sinking,# Canadian singer-songwriter Gordon## Lightfoot released his folk ballad# "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

"## The song became a surprise hit, popularizing# the Fitzgerald story with an international## audience and solidifying a legend# that lives on half-a-century later.

It's all recounted in a new book# called "The Gales of November:## The Untold Story of the Edmund# Fitzgerald" by journalist John U. Bacon.

And John U. Bacon joins us now.

John, thank you so much for being here.

There has been a lot written and told# about this story.

I mean, you have said## that this is maybe the most well-known wreck# outside of the Titanic.

So, given all of that,## what was it that you wanted to delve into,# what story you wanted to tell with this book?

JOHN U. BACON, Author, "The Gales of November: The# Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald": The untold## part of my story -- and it's a# gr.. I got to six crewmen who'd been# on the ship before it went down,## because all 29 men went down with the ship that# night, including two guys who'd been on the## ship that season.

And they could fill in what# the captain was like, what the crew was like,## how the ship functioned.

And I got to 14 of the# 29 families to find out more about their fathers,## their cousins, their uncles,# their boyfriends in some cases.

And these guys have never# talked to the press before.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Can you give us# a little bit more detail about some## of the examples of those stories that# you -- what you learned from these men?

JOHN U. BACON: I will give you three quick ones.

The captain, Ernest McSorley, 63 years old, the# best in the Great Lakes, he'd been.. since he was 31.

So, that's more than half his# life.

He was going to retire after this trip## at 63.

And he tacked on one more trip for# his bonus for his wife's medical care,## Nellie, who was in 24-hour care# at that point, probably cancer.

So, this trip was a tack-on, and that# makes it all the more heartbreaking,## of course.

We have got Eddie Bindon, 47 years# old, who -- 25-year marriage to his wife, Helen,## and about to retire himself after this trip.

He# had gone the day before on Saturday to Duluth,## Minnesota, right next to Superior, Wisconsin,# to buy his wife a two-carat diamond ring.

And for reasons William will never know, he# gave it not to his duffel bag to take with him## to Toledo, where he's going to see her in three# days.

He gave it to a friend of his and said:## "Please mail this to my wife."

And he did.# And, of course, three days after the wreck,## she received her 25th anniversary ring.# She never took it off.

She never remarried.

So that's a pretty amazing story.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Amazing.

JOHN U. BACON, Author, car": The last one,## Bruce Hudson found out two months earlier, he# got his girl.. in Toledo.

He said, don't worry.

We will move in# together and raise the child ourselves.

Of course,## the ship goes down, and Ruth Hudson thinks# she's lost her only child.

She has, of course.

She has no idea that six months later, she's going## to be a grandmother.

So these stories are# the kind of things that make them human.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: A lot of people might have# come to know this story by the famous Gordon## Lightfoot song.

And you talk a little# bit about how critical that song was to,## in a way, popularizing this.

Can# you tell us a bit about that?

JOHN U. BACON: Let's be honest, William.# Without the song, there is no book.

There are 6,000 Great Lakes shipwrecks# between 1875 and 1975, and everyone knows one,## and it's this one.

It's because of the song.# So the song not only popularized this tragedy,## naturally, but it also put a spotlight on# the entire industry and woke up the industry.

After this, you had better forecasting, better# communications with the captains.

You had,## frankly, more common sense.

When it's rough out,# don't go out, stay in.

They never used to, and now## they always do.

So, since 1975, since that song# came out 1976, there has been not one, not one## Great Lakes shipwreck amongst commercial sailors# since then, versus 6,000 the previous century.

So that's the impact it made.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: An.. JOHN U. BACON: Absolutely.

The song gave it so# much attention that they were writing reports## two and three and four years later, the Coast# Guard, the National Transportation Safety Board,## and, of course, books upon books you can# see behind me that I have been reading.

They're not about the Lusitania.

They're not# about the Bradley that went down in 1958 or the## Cedarville in '65.

It's about this one ship.# So this kind of -- it was 9/11 basically for## the shipping industry, and that forced them to# wake up and do a better job, and now they have.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your book also# sort of pulls the curtain back on## the importance of Great Lakes shipping,# how critical it was to the country,## and how risky it could be.

Can you# just give us a little sense of that?

JOHN U. BACON: This is where your cement# comes from, your car comes from, your food## comes from.

It's all from these ships.

And I did# not fully appreciate that, the reason being is## that shipping is three times more efficient than# trains and six times more efficient than trucking.

It's not even close.

So if they can put it on a# ship, they will.

And it's also more dangerous,## as you pointed out.

Perhaps the biggest# shock to me in all my research is the## simple fact that the experienced sailors# in both the Atlantic and the Great Lakes## will tell you the Atlantic is not# as dangerous as the Great Lakes.

Saltwater squashes down the waves and# spreads them out.

So you get these gentle## roller coasters versus these mountaintops,# basically, that are twice as close together.## Instead of 10 to 16 seconds apart, they're# four to eight seconds apart.

On top of that,## the storm in the ocean is probably from 500 or# 1,000 miles away.

In the Great Lakes, they are## called locally occurring storms, which, William,# means the storm over your head right now.

And that can change very quickly.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: How do you hope that# the country remembers this tragedy?

JOHN U. BACON: Obviously, solemnly.

There## are a lot of jokes out there you# will find on Twitter and so on.

But second thing is to understand# that these guys, in my opinion,## were heroes before that night.

Everyone knows# the fisherman, the farmer, the factory worker,## the miner.

No one knows these guys.

But# this is where your stuff comes from,## and at great risk.

It also# should be noted, by the way,## the families didn't know each other at all when# the ship went down, have become incredibly close.

And they said to me, they're not like# family.

They are family.

And one of the## daughters pulled up her sleeve, and it says# "We are holding our own" in a tattoo on her## left forearm.

That was the last word from the# Edmund Fitzgerald: "We are holding our own."

And these families truly are.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, the book# is called "The Gales of November."

John U. Bacon, thank you so much for joining us.

JOHN U. BACON: William, thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: Later tonight here on PBS on this Veter... a musical and visual production that brings# America's story in World War I to life.

AMNA NAWAZ: "American Heart in World# War I: A Carnegie Hall Tribute" weaves## together storytelling and music, along# with rare archival film and images,## to remember the history of America's# involvement in the Great War.

MAN: In 1921, Congress votes to create# the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

The Army## randomly selects one unknown soldier from# the nine cemeteries.

The soldier is carried## from France across the Atlantic on the# pride of the U.S.

fleet, the USS Olympia.

The body lies in a state in the Capitol Rotunda,# an honor never given before to a common boy.## November 11, 1921, is dedicated a national# holiday.

This day will be our Veterans Day.

GEOFF BENNETT: "American Heart in World War I"## premieres at 8:00 p.m.

Eastern on# PBS stations and on the PBS app.

And that is the "News Hour"# for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "News Hour"# team, thank yo..