♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> AS ISRAEL INTENSIFIES AIR AND GROUND OPERATIONS IN GAZA, TENSIONS, DIVISIONS, AND HATE ARE FLARING ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WE DISCUSS THE RAGING CONFLICT OVER THE WAR WITH WRITER JONATHAN FREEDLAND AND ACADEMIC MONA SIDDIQUI.

THEN, MY CONVERSATION WITH THE U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY, GINA RAIMONDO ON THE HIGH STAKES UPCOMING BIDEN/XI MEETING.

PLUS, AUTHOR EMILY TAMKIN TALKS TO MESHL MARTIN ABOUT HER SES SAY, WHAT SHOULD AMERICAN JEWS DO WITH OUR FEAR?

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY 'EM DOMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NO MILK FOR BABIES, NO FOOD FOR PATIENTS, AND NO FUEL FOR LIGHTS OR INCUBATORS.

GAZA'S HEALTH SYSTEM IS CRUMBLING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF WAR, AS ISRAEL SAYS IT IS GOING DEEPER INTO THE TERRITORY.

BATTLES RAGE AROUND TWO MAIN HOSPITALS.

THE DIRECTOR OF THE LARGEST, AL SHIFA, SAYS THE SITUATION IS CATASTROPHIC, AND THAT ALL ESSENTIAL UNITS HAVE COLLAPSED.

HE SAYS ABOUT 7,000 PEOPLE ARE SHELTERING THERE, ALONG WITH 1,500 PATIENTS AND STAFF.

BUT ISRAEL ALLEGES THAT HAMAS COMMAND CENTERS ARE HOUSED BENEATH IT, WITH A U.S. OFFICIAL NOW TELLING CNN MUCH THE SAME.

THERE ARE CHARGES THAT HAMAS AND DOCTORS THERE DENY.

NADA BASHIR HAS MORE ON THE SITUATION IN GAZA HOSPITALS, AND AS A WARNING, SOME OF THESE IMAGES ARE HARD TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: THESE ARE THE SOUNDS OF THE FINAL GASPS FROM GAZA'S COLLAPSING HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

MEDICAL STAFF IN GAZA CITY WORKING UNDER NEAR RELENTLESS ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT FOR OVER A MONTH.

BUT NOW, THIS CHORUS OF FRANTIC VOICES, SEEN HERE WORKING UNDER TORCHLIGHT, TELLS ITS OWN GUT-WRENCHING STORY.

THE HOSPITAL, THE SECOND-LARGEST IN GAZA, HAS NOW COLLAPSED.

IT IS ONE OF MANY HOSPITALS IN GAZA THAT ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF SERVICE, ACCORDING TO OFFICIALS.

THOSE REMAINING NOW ON A CLIFF EDGE.

>> Translator: THERE WAS A DIRECT INJURY IN THE HEAD.

INTERNAL BLEEDING.

AND WE CAN'T DO SURGERIES, NO SURGERIES, NO OXYGEN, NO ELECTRICITY.

WE WORK MANUALLY.

WE ARE USING A MANUAL REUS DAY OR THE.

IT IS A CLEAR INJURY.

IT NEEDS AN URGENT SURGERY.

A LIFE-SAVING ONE.

HE IS LESS THAN A YEAR OLD.

>> Reporter: REMARKABLY, THIS BABY SURVIVED.

BUT HIS FATHER, WHO WAS IN THE VERY SAME BUILDING WHEN AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE HIT, DID NOT.

AT GAZA'S LARGEST HOSPITAL, AL SHIFA, OFFICIALS SAY THREE BABIES IN THE NEONATAL UNIT DIED AFTER A GENERATOR POWERING INCUBATORS WAS DAMAGED IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE.

CNN HAS REACHED OUT TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY FOR COMMENT.

THE IDF REGULARLY SAYS IT IS TARGETING HAMAS, BUT DOCTORS HERE SAY THE HOSPITAL IS NOW COMPLETELY SURROUNDED.

>> THE SITUATION IS DIFFICULT, ACCORDING TO OUR COLLEAGUE THERE, THERE IS NO ELECTRICITY, THEY CANNOT COMMUNICATE BETWEEN EACH OTHER.

THERE IS A LOT OF TARGETING AROUND THE HOSPITAL.

>> Reporter: THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID SUNDAY IT HAS SENT 300 LITERS OF FUEL TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE HOSPITAL.

SAID TO ONLY BE ENOUGH TO POWER THE HOSPITAL'S GENERATORS FOR 30 MINUTES.

BUT THE IDF SAYS HAMAS BLOCKED THE HOSPITAL FROM RECEIVING IT.

HOSPITAL OFFICIALS, HOWEVER, SAY STAFF WERE TOO AFRAID BY SURROUNDING ISRAELI TANKS TO COLLECT THE FUEL.

INSIDE THE HOSPITAL, DOCTORS ARE OVERWHELMED, MORGUES NOW LONG BEYOND CAPACITY.

AND WITH COMMUNICATIONS FREQUENTLY CUT OFF, CONTACT BETWEEN MEDICAL TEAMS ON THE GROUND AND WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD IS GROWING INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT.

HOSPITAL OFFICIALS SAY THOUSANDS OF DISPLACED CIVILIANS ARE STILL THOUGHT TO BE IN THE COMPOUND.

TAKING SHELTER IN WHAT ONCE WAS THOUGHT TO BE A SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THIS SEEMINGLY UNENDING NIGHTMARE.

>> Translator: WE THOUGHT THE HOSPITAL WAS A SAFE PLACE, BUT IT WASN'T.

IF WE HAD STAYED ANOTHER FIVE MINUTES, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED.

THEY STARTED TO BOMB US, AND WE RAN AWAY FROM AL SHIFA.

>> Reporter: THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS IT IS NOW ENABLING PASSAGE FROM THREE HOSPITALS IN NORTHERN GAZA.

ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER TELLING CNN ON SUNDAY THAT THERE IS NO REASON WHY PATIENTS CAN'T BE EVACUATED FROM AL SHIFA.

BUT DOCTORS ON THE GROUND SAY A NEAR CONSTANT BARRAGE OF AIR STRIKES HAS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR PATIENTS AND STAFF TO SAFELY EVACUATE.

>> Translator: THIS IS ANOTHER FORM OF TORTURE.

WE HAVE ABOUT SIX KILOMETERS TO GO, NO LESS.

SHE GOT A STROKE THAT CAUSED HER BRAIN DAMAGE.

SHE CAN'T SPEAK AND IS PARALYZED.

>> Reporter: ISRAEL SAYS ADDITIONAL ROUTES HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO ALLOW CIVILIANS TO EVACUATE SOUTHWARDS, BUT THE UNITED NATIONS ITSELF HAS RAISED DOUBTS OVER THE SO-CALLED SAFE ZONES OUTLINED BY ISRAEL, WARNING THAT NOWHERE INSIDE GAZA IS SAFE FOR CIVILIANS ANYMORE.

AND FOR THOSE TOO INJURED, TOO SICK, EVACUATION IS IMPOSSIBLE.

MANY DOCTORS ON THE GROUND VOWING TO STAY BESIDE THEIR PATIENTS, NO MATTER WHAT.

NADA BASHIR, CNN, IN JERUSALEM.

>> THAT WAS NADA BASHIR REPORTING.

NOW, THE WAR IS TRIGGERING DEEP FEELINGS ALL OVER THIS WORLD.

HERE IN LONDON, PRO-PALESTINIAN SUPPORTERS TOOK TO THE STREET.

AND TODAY, A DRAMATIC GOVERNMENT SHAKEUP.

PRIME MINISTER RISHI SUNAK FIRED SUELLA BRAVERMAN FOR MAKING INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS ABOUT THOSE MARCHES.

WHILE IN PARIS THIS WEEKEND, OVER 100,000 PEOPLE TOOK TO THE STREETS AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM.

HATE AND DIVISION HAVE FLARED SINCE OCTOBER 7th, MAKING ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS WAR EXTREMELY FRAUGHT.

SO, HERE TO DISCUSS IS THE GUARDIAN COLUMNIST JONATHAN FREEDLAND AND ACADEMIC MONA SIDDIQUI.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE, AS NADA BASHIR HAS REPORTED.

GAZA IS A KA TRAT TROPHY FOR THOSE IN THE HOSPITALS, THOSE EXODUS ALL OVER AGAIN.

BUT THE OUTSIDE WORLD IS HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME EVEN TRYING TO TALK ABOUT IT.

JONATHAN, WHAT DO YOU MAKE, FOR INSTANCE, LET'S JUST TAKE THE MARCH IN LONDON THIS WEEK, PRO-PALESTINIAN, MANY SAY PRO, YOU KNOW, PRO PEACE, PRO CEASE-FIRE.

AND YET, A KEY MINISTER, WHO HAS NOW BEEN FIRED, REALLY GENERATED A LOT OF DIVISION AND HATE OVER THAT.

>> SHE DID.

I MEAN, SHE WAS REACTING TO THE PRESENCE WITHIN A MARCH THAT WAS OVERALL COMMITTED TO A CEASE-FIRE, EXACTLY AS YOU SAY.

THE PRESENCE THERE OF SOME BANNERS, SOME SLOGANS, SOME PLACARDS, WHICH WERE OFF THAT MESSAGE, WHICH WERE ATTACKING OR USING AGE-OLD ANTI-SEMITIC IMAGERY OR LANGUAGE OR MAKING OFFENSIVE COMPARISONS WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, AN IMAGE OF A STAR OF DAVID MORPHING INTO A SWASTIKA.

SO, SHE WAS TAKING THOSE ELEMENTS AND SAYING, THAT, THEREFORE IS THE WHOLE OF THE MARCH, WHICH I THINK IS WRONG AND UNFAIR TO HAVE DONE THAT.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE MARCHING, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY LOOK AT THE IMAGES WE'VE JUST SEEN NOW AND SAY THAT, I WANT THAT TO STOP.

AND THEREFORE, THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT'S A HATE MARCH, YOU MAY SAY THAT'S NAIVE, THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY, BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY HATE.

AND WHAT SHE WENT ON TO SAY WAS THAT THE POLICE ARE PICKING FAVORITES, THAT WAS A DIVISIVE THING TO SAY, AND SHE DID A CODED MESSAGE TO THE FAR RIGHT TO THEN COME OUT ONTO THE STREETS AND YOU HAD A SITUATION WHERE BRITISH WERE SAYING, WE HAVE PEOPLE HOLDING PLACARDS THAT FRIGHTEN US.

SO, JEWS WERE NOWHERE TO BE SEEN, THERE WERE TWO SIDES SORT OF SAFING THINGS AND ARGUING ABOUT JEWS, WHICH MADE BRITISH FEEL EVEN MORE FRIGHTENED AND FEELING SQUEEZED IN BETWEEN.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED -- MONA, ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE LEVEL OF -- OF REALLY FRAUGHT DISCOURSE THAT'S HAPPENING IN PUBLIC NOW?

IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT, I MEAN, THE PROTESTS ARE A MANIFESTATION OF IT, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MADE OF THE GIGANTIC PROTEST IN PARIS AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> I SUPPOSE -- I HAVE BEEN TAKEN ABACK, A LITTLE BIT, HOW ALMOST VICIOUS THIS PARTICULAR, I SUPPOSE THE WAR IN SOCIAL MEDIA AND ALSO THE CONFLICT IN OUR STREETS HAS BECOME.

BUT I THINK THE LONGER THIS -- THE LONGER IT GOES ON, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, I THINK THIS WILL JUST GET WORSE.

AND I SUPPOSE THE PROBLEM IS THAT I THINK FOR THE FIRST TIME, A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW, BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THE DIFFERENT COMPLEXITIES OF THIS CONFLICT.

AND SO, -- AND ON TOP OF THAT, WE HAVE PEOPLE'S OWN VIEWS ON SOCIAL MEDIA, SOME OF IT TRUE, SOME OF IT FACTUAL, SOME OF IT MADE UP, AND THEN, YOU HAVE POLITICIANS ALSO, MANY OF WHOM ARE TAKING A PARTICULAR STANCE.

AND THE STANCE THEY'RE TAKING IS NOT NECESSARILY ON THE CONFLICT, BUT USING THE CONFLICT TO ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

TO WHICH, I THINK, JONATHAN'S JUST ALLUDED.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM IS, SO, YOU SUDDENLY FEEL EVERYWHERE THERE'S CONFLICT, IN OUR POLITICS, IN OUR SOCIETY, AND THAT SOMEHOW THE CONFLICT OF OVERSEAS, THAT -- THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, IS ALMOST LIKE IT'S BEEN PLAYED OUT ON OUR STREETS.

AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THIS HAS BECOME VERY UNSETTLING AND ALSO WORRYING, AND THIS IS AT A TIME WHEN YOU REALLY DO NEED LEADERSHIP.

LEADERSHIP THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY BLUNT THE TRUTH, BUT ACTUALLY TRIES TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE INCLUSIVE, A LITTLE BIT MORE UNDERSTANDING, TO CALM PEOPLE'S FEARS, RATHER THAN RAISE THE TEMPERATURE.

>> THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

I WANT YOU BOTH TO WEIGH IN, THEN, BECAUSE LEADERSHIP APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN PLAYING POLITICS, WHETHER IT WAS THE FULL-THROATED GREEN LIGHT OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, TO ISRAEL FOR ITS LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE, OR WHETHER IT'S NOW LOTS OF LEADERS FROM THE UNITED STATES, TO FRANCE, AND WE'LL PLAY PRESIDENT MACRON IN A MOMENT, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT NEEDING A CEASE-FIRE.

I MEAN, THE U.S.

DOESN'T SAY THAT, IT SAYS HUMANITARIAN PAUSES, BUT LET ME PLAY WHAT PRESIDENT MACRON, AND I WAS GENUINELY TAKEN ABACK WHEN I HEARD WHAT HE SAID TO THE BBC OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> DE FACTO TODAY, CIVILIANS ARE BOMBED.

DE FACTO, THERE'S BABIES, LADIES, OLD PEOPLE, ARE BOMBED AND KILLED.

THERE IS NO REASON FOR THAT, SO, WE DO URGE ISRAEL TO STOP.

I'M NOT HERE TO -- I'M NOT A JUDGE, I'M A HEAD OF STATE, I JUST REMIND EVERYBODY, INTERNATIONAL LAW, I CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

>> I MEAN, HE'S LITERALLY BROKEN WITH THE REST OF THE SORT OF COALITION, RIGHT?

JONATHAN, WERE YOU SURPRISED?

AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU BOTH WHETHER YOU WERE SURPRISED, AND WHY YOU THINK THIS HAPPENED NOW, BECAUSE I KNOW, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF PEOPLE JUMPED ON IT, OH, MY GOODNESS, ARE YOU -- TALKING ABOUT DELIBERATE -- HE SAID, DE FACTO IS NOT -- HE WAS VERY, VERY CLEAR, HE SAID, DE FACTO, IE, WE CAN SEE IT, CIVILIANS ARE BEING KILLED.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT HE SAID AND WHY HE SAID IT NOW?

>> I WAS SURPRISED BY IT, BECAUSE UNTIL THEN, THE WESTERN LEADERS ACCEPTED THE ISRAELI ARGUMENT, WHICH IS, LOOK, THESE PICTURES THAT WE'RE SEEING OUT OF GAZA ARE HIDEOUS AND TERRIBLE, BUT WE'RE UP AGAINST, THIS IS THE ISRAELI NARRATIVE, A VERY PARTICULAR KIND OF ENEMY THAT IS HAPPY TO HAVE, ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI VERSION YOU ITS MILITARY COMMAND POST UNDER THAT HOSPITAL.

IF YOU ARE IN THAT SITUATION -- >> THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE, CERTAIN OFFICIALS, AS I SAID, ARE TELLING CNN THE SAME THING NOW.

>> THE SAME THING.

IF YOU ARE UP AGAINST THAT HAS SAID, WE DID THIS THING ON OCTOBER 7th, WE FILMED IT, THESE BRUTAL MURDERS, WE WOULD DO IT AGAIN, YOU'VE SEEN THE CLIP THAT'S GONE AROUND, WE WOULD DO IT AGAIN A SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH TIME, IF YOU ARE UP AGAINST AN ENEMY THAT WOULD DO IT AND PLANNING FROM UNDERNEATH A HOSPITAL, WHAT IS EXACTLY ISRAELI MEANT TO DO?

AND MACRON WAS PART OF THAT CONSENSUS THAT SAID, YOU KNOW JOE BIDEN AND OTHERS, WE GET IT, YOU ARE IN A TERRIBLE POSITION.

IT'S TEMPTING TO SAY HE BROKE FROM THAT THAT A LOT OF REASONS THAT POLITICIANS ARE GETTING NERVOUS AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY HAVE CONSTITUENTS THAT FEEL BOUND UP BY THIS CONFLICT.

THERE ARE JEWS THAT FEEL BOUND UP WITH ISRAEL AND ITS FORTUNES, EVEN IF THEY OPPOSE THE GOVERNMENT AND HAVE OPPOSED IT FOR DECADES.

THEY WANT ISRAEL TO EXIST AS A PLACE OF SAFETY AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE MUSLIMS, AND I WAS SPEAKING TO A MUSLIM WRITER JUST TODAY, WHO SAID, YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT PALESTINE IS ONE OF THE ISSUES, FEW ISSUES, PERHAPS IN SOME WAYS THE ONLY ISSUE IN ALL THE WORLD'S MUSLIMS AGREE AND HAVE IN COMMON.

THEY WILL NOT OF COURSE ALL AGREE, BUT THEY ARE BOUND BY THAT.

BUT YOU HAVE VOTERS THAT FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT IT.

IT'S NOT A FOREIGN ISSUE.

FOR THE COMMUNITY THAT I'M PART OF, FOR THE COMMUNITY THAT MONA IS PART OF.

IT FEELS REAL AND INTIMATE.

>> MONA, THEN, WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE TO -- WHAT DID YOU FEEL WHEN MACRON SAID WHAT HE DID?

AND LET'S NOT FORGET, JUST FOR THE FACTS, FRANCE HAS THE HIGHEST, OR THING BIGGEST JEWISH POPULATION AND THE BIGGEST MUSLIM POPULATION IN EUROPE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I ACTUALLY WASN'T THAT SURPRISED, BECAUSE I HAVE FELT FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS THAT OPINION IS SHIFTING AMONG WESTERN LEADERS.

I SUPPOSE IT'S THE HARDEST, OR, IT'S KIND OF REMAINED ALMOST STEAD THE FAST IN THE U.S., IN THE UK, BUT I WASN'T PARTICULARLY SURPRISED.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS I WASN'T SURPRISED, BECAUSE, YOU REFERRED TO THE JEWISH AND THE MUSLIM COMMUNITIES, BUT ACTUALLY, PLURALISM, I'VE ALWAYS ARGUED, IN EUROPE, IS BOTH A GIFT AND A TASK.

IT'S A GIFT FOR PEOPLE WHO SAY DIVERSITY IS A GOOD THING, IT'S ENRICHBED OUR SOCIETIES, BUT IT IS ALSO A TASK, BECAUSE IT IS NOT EASY.

YOU HAVE TO MANAGE IT.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE A CONFLICT LIKE THIS, PEOPLE'S TEMPERATURES ARE REALLY RAISED.

SO, YOU HAVE TO THINK, HOW DO I MANAGE THE DIFFERENT VIEWS, THE VERY HEATED PASSIONS PEOPLE HAVE, ON THE STREETS OF MY COUNTRY?

AND I THINK WHAT PRESIDENT MACRON WAS SEEING IS, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF UNREST, NOT JUST BY THE PRO-PALESTINIAN -- NOT NECESSARILY JUST THE MUSLIM COMMUNITIES, BUT EVERYONE WHO SUPPORTS THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE, BUT ALSO NOW, AS A COUNTRY THAT HAS HAD A LONG HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THESE VERY FORCEFUL COMMUNITIES, RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES, THAT HAVE A REAL PRESENCE HERE?

AND I DO THINK -- YOU KNOW, WESTERN LEADERS REALLY NEED A DIFFERENT MORAL IMAGINATION AS TO HOW THEY'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH THIS, RATHER THAN MAKE ABSTRACT COMMENTS THAT ISRAEL NEEDS TO DO THIS.

AND I DON'T SEE THAT MORAL IMAGINATION, AND THAT DETERMINATION, TO DO SOMETHING COMING TO THE FORE AT THE MOMENT.

>> AND JUST BEFORE -- I KNOW YOU WANT TO STEP IN, BUT MACRON HAD BANNED ALL PRO-PALESTINIAN MARCHES AROUND OCTOBER 7th.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT WAS ABOUT MARCHES, I WAS GOING TO COME IN, BECAUSE I'M STRUCK WHAT MONA SAYS ABOUT MORAL IMAGINATION.

I THINK WHAT IT WOULD LEAD TO, I WOULD HOPE, IS FOR PEOPLE TO THINK YOU COULD BE ON BOTH THE PRO-PALESTINIAN MARCH, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THAT MARCH AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM.

THERE SHOULD BE NO CONTRADICTION BETWEEN THEM.

SIMILARLY, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE ON A PRO-PALESTINIAN MARCH AND BE ON A MARCH TO BRING HOME THOSE HOSTAGES, 240 ISRAELI HOSTAGES.

INSTEAD, THESE VIGILS, THESE MARCHES, HAVE BEEN SEPARATE.

I KNOW LOTS OF JEWS FEEL THEY CAN'T COMFORTABLY GO ON THOSE MARCHES, BECAUSE THEY HEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S CHANT FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE AND THEY HEAR IN THAT, EVEN IF IT'S NOT INTENDED, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, MEANING ALL OF PALESTINE, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR AN ISRAEL, ISRAEL IS 9 MILLION JEWISH PEOPLE, THE LARGEST JEWISH COMMUNITY IN THE WORLD.

THAT'S WHAT THEY HEAR.

AND I KNOW THAT NOT EVERY PROTESTER MEANS THAT, NECESSARILY, BUT IF WE COULD SHED SOME OF THOSE -- I MENTIONED THE PLACARDS, THE CHANTS, FROM THAT PROTEST, YOU COULD SEE A SITUATION, I THINK IT WOULD REQUIRE MORAL IMAGINATION, AND LEADERSHIP, YOUR WORD FROM BEFORE, TO HAVE PEOPLE SAYING, LET'S DO BOTH.

LET'S MARCH AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM AND FOR THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE, THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOSTAGES.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, MONA AND I HAVE SHOWN, WE WERE AGREEING ON ALMOST EVERYTHING, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WILL ARE PEOPLE WHO DO WANT TO DRIVE WEDGES AND DIVIDE.

>> AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE HOSTAGES, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE THEMSELVES ARE CAMPING OUTSIDE NETANYAHU'S OFFICE AND DEMANDING, I MEAN, IT WAS A REALLY, YOU KNOW, HUM DINGER THIS WEEKEND, THEY WERE DEMANDING THEY PUT THE HOSTAGES FIRST AND FOREMOST, BUT MONA, WE KNOW THAT FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA IS VERY TRIGGERING FOR JEWS, BUT PALESTINIANS SAY IT'S ALL ABOUT FREEDOM.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT STATEMENT?

IS IT -- WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> I CAN ONLY SPEAK ON WHAT I'M SEEING IN THE NEWS OR IN SOCIAL MEDIA, AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY POIGNANT MOMENT FOR PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE IT IS FOR THEM A SECOND EXODUS, AS, I THINK THAT'S THE WORD YOU USED.

THEY ARE NOW ONCE AGAIN LEAVING A LAND.

AND MY CONCERN IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

I MEAN, WE CAN TALK ABOUT CHANTS AND MARCHES AND EVERYTHING.

I THINK THOSE WILL CONTINUE.

MY REAL CONCERN IS, THE TEMPERATURE IS GOING TO RISE IF WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN FOR WHAT'S COMING NEXT.

BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS CONSTANTLY SAYING IT IS DOING EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT IS GOING AFTER HAMAS.

EVEN IF WE BELIEVE THAT, AND I'M SLIGHTLY DOUBTFUL, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE, THAT THAT JUSTIFIES EVERYTHING, BUT EVEN IF WE WERE TO BELIEVE THAT, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

AND THAT'S MY CONCERN, THAT THIS -- THIS UNREST IN WESTERN SOCIETIES IS NOT GOING TO DIE DOWN FOR A LONG TIME, UNTIL PEOPLE SEE A CONCRETE PLAN FOR WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BOTH WITH ISRAEL AND ALSO THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN FORCED OUT OF GAZA.

>> SO, THIS BRINGS ME TO BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, WHO DESCRIBED, YOU KNOW, TO US, IN FACT, HE TOLD CNN JUST THIS WEEKEND THE FOLLOWING, AND THIS GOES TO WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

>> THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS DESTROY HAMAS, BECAUSE OTHERWISE, THEY'LL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND THEY'VE SAID SO.

SO, WE'LL DESTROY HAMAS.

THE SECOND THING WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THERE HAS TO BE AN OVERRIDING AND OVERREACHING ISRAELI MILITARY ENVELOPE, BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN, ANY PLACE THAT WE LEAVE, WE JUST, YOU KNOW, EXIT, GIVE IT TO SOME OTHER FORCE, VERY SOON TERRORISM RESURGES, SO, WE ACHIEVE NOTHING.

THE THIRD THING WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT A CIVILIAN AUTHORITY HAS TO COOPERATE IN TWO GOALS.

ONE IS TO DEMILITARYIZE GAZA, AND THE SECOND IS TO DERADICALIZE GAZA.

>> JONATHAN, THIS IS REALLY FUNDAMENTAL.

THERE ARE MANY WHO DEPLORE WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, BUT HOPE THAT AT LEAST IT CAN LEAD TO SOME KIND OF SENSIBLE, AT LAST, PEACE RESOLUTION.

I MEAN, HE'S TALKING ABOUT A MILITARY ENVELOPE, HE'S TALKING ABOUT OCCUPATION, SECURITY CONTROL, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THAT.

IS THAT WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO SEE?

>> NO.

AND I THINK THE AMERICANS DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT AND I THINK THEY'VE PUSHED BACK ALREADY ON THAT VISION OF IT.

I ALSO DON'T THINK IT'S PLAUSIBLE THAT NETANYAHU HIMSELF WILL BE INVOLVED IN THAT, ISRAELI PUBLIC OPINION TURNING AGAINST HIM, SAYING, THIS HAPPENED ON YOUR WATCH, THIS IS IN A WAY AS A RESULT OF A 15-YEAR POLICY OF HIS, WHICH WAS TO BUILD UP HAMAS, AT THE EXPENSE OF THOSE ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE WHO WERE READY TO REACH ACROSS, SHAKE HANDS AND DO A DEAL.

HE DIDN'T WANT THAT, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT THE COMPROMISES INVOLVED.

IT WILL HAVE TO BE -- THE THING HE SAID HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO, HANDING OVER TO SOME OTHER AUTHORITY, IF HAMAS IS TAKEN OUT OF THE PICTURE.

AND NO OTHER AUTHORITY YOU CAN THINK OF, WHETHER THAT'S THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY OR ARAB NATIONS, WILL GO ANYWHERE NEAR IT UNLESS THERE IS A PROMISE FROM ISRAEL, MORE THAN A PROMISE, ACTION FROM ISRAEL, TO END THE SETTLEMENT PROJECT, THE EXPANSION ON THE WEST BANK.

THAT IS GOING TO BE THE TRADEOFF.

AND MANY JEWS THAT WOULD BE RELIEVED TO SEE THAT.

THEY HAVE WANTED TO SEE TWO SIDES SIDE-BY-SIDE, A SECURE ISRAEL, ALONGSIDE A FREE PALESTINIAN STATE.

YOU CANNOT GET THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE COMPROMISE ON THE WEST BANK AND DISMANTLING SETTLEMENTS, A PULLOUT THERE.

SO, WHAT HE IS SAYING IS PARTLY FOR POLITICAL CONSUMPTION, BUT I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO BE PART OF THIS STORY.

>> MONA, FINALLY, YOU KNOW, LET'S FACE IT, THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TURNED DOWN PEACE OFFER AFTER PEACE OFFER, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THE IDEA OF A REVIVED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY OR INDEED A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, IS STILL IN THE CARDS?

BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

>> I THINK WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SAY TWO-STATE, BUT WHAT DOES A STATE LOOK LIKE, WILL A PALESTINIAN STATE BE LIKE THE ISRAELI STATE?

WILL THE PALESTINIANS BE ABLE TO LEAD, THEIR OWN MILITARY, THEIR OWN AIRPORT, ALL THE GOVERNMENT MACHINERY?

I THINK AT THE MOMENT, WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS LESS OF THE KILLING.

WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS, ISRAEL HAS THE UPPER HAND.

ISRAEL WILL HAVE TO, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO COMPROMISE ON SOMETHING THAT SHOWS THE WORLD THAT THEY ARE READY TO MAKE PEACE, THAT THEY ARE READY TO GIVE THE PALESTINIANS SOMETHING.

IN RETURN FOR A COMPROMISE.

AND I THINK LARGELY THE COMPROMISE WILL STILL BE ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S TERMS, BUT FOR ME, LIVING AS, YOU KNOW, DISTANT FROM ALL THIS, I FEEL THAT WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE TOLL SO DESTABILIZE THE COMMUNITIES THAT LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE AND ACTUALLY VERY MEANINGFULLY MEND WAYS IN EUROPEAN SOCIETIES, THAT THERE IS NO TURNING BACK.

AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE SO SAD.

BUT ALSO CATASTROPHIC FOR THE KIND OF PLURALISM PROJECT THAT EUROPE HAS DEVELOPED OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO DISCUSS AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE YOU BACK, BECAUSE, YEAH, IT'S REALLY A HUGE RECKONING RIGHT NOW FOR EVERYONE IN THE WORLD.

MONA, JONATHAN, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AFTER MONTHS OF BUILDUP, THIS WEEK SEES THE FIRST PROPER IN-PERSON MEETING OF BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY BETWEEN HIM AND CHINA'S LEADER XI JINPING.

IT WILL HAPPEN IN CALIFORNIA ON THE SIDELINES OF THE ASIA PACIFIC ECONOMIC COOPERATION SUMMIT, OR APEC.

THIS IS THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL RELATIONSHIP IN THE WORLD, AND ASIA WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE THE FOCUS OF BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY.

WITH THE MIDDLE EAST INTENDED TO BE KEPT MOSTLY OFF HIS DESK.

SAFE TO SAY, THE WORLD HAS HAD OTHER IDEAS.

ONE OF THE FEW TOP OFFICIALS PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS TRUSTED TO ENGAGE DIRECTLY WITH CHINA IS GINA RAIMONDO, HIS COMMERCE SECRETARY AND THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF RHODE ISLAND.

AND I SPOKE WITH HER ABOUT HER RECENT TRIP TO CHINA, ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND THE IMPORTANT MATTER, YEP, OF PASTA DIPLOMACY.

SECRETARY RAIMONDO, THANK YOU, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I SAID, AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE WORLD IS IN A TOTAL WAR FOOTING RIGHT NOW, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, TO RUSSIA/UKRAINE.

SO, I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU, AHEAD OF THIS MEETING BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS, SHOULD WE BE PREPARED AND BUCKLING IN FOR WAR IN TAIWAN?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I DON'T THINK SO.

FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AS YOU SAY, WE ARE IN TURMOIL ALL AROUND THE WORLD, AND I WILL TELL YOU AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK, WHEN I'M WITH THE PRESIDENT AND WATCHING HIM WITH WORLD LEADERS, I FEEL SO GRATEFUL THAT HE IS THE MAN IN CHARGE OF OUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

HE HAS THE RIGHT TEMPERAMENT AND EXPERIENCE.

I WAS IN CHINA RECENTLY.

I THINK THEY HAVE A DESIRE AND WE HAVE A DESIRE TO STABILIZE THE RELATIONSHIP, YOU KNOW, IN MY CASE, WHEN I MET WITH MY COUNTERPARTS, WE TALKED ABOUT USING THE ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP AS A BALLAST FOR THE REST OF THE RELATIONSHIP.

WE HAVE TO PROTECT WHERE WE MUST, BUT TRADE WHERE WE CAN.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE DIRECTION FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN, AS IT RELATES TO CHINA, AND I THINK THAT IS WHERE CHINA IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S TIME TO RACHET DOWN THE TEMPERATURE AND LOOK TO, I THINK, THE WORLD, TRUTHFULLY, IS LOOKING TO THE U.S. AND CHINA TO BE RESPONSIBLE IN MANAGING THIS RELATIONSHIP.

>> SO, THIS IS A REALLY BIG DEAL, AND THE PREVIOUS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, JERRY BROWN, TOLD ME THAT THERE'S NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REAL CONVERSATION AND GETTING A MEASURE OF EACH OTHER FOR THESE TWO LEADERS.

SO, WHAT DO YOU HOPE WILL COME OF A FACE-TO-FACE SITDOWN OVER MORE THAN JUST 30 SECONDS?

>> I WOULD SAY, HAVING WORKED FOR THE PRESIDENT NOW FOR THREE YEARS, HE IS AT HIS BEST WITH THESE PERSON-TO-PERSON MEETINGS WITH WORLD LEADERS.

HE HAS AN AMAZING ABILITY TO RELAX WITH THEM AND JUST HAVE AN HONEST, AUTHENTIC, DIRECT DISCUSSION, AND THAT'S WHAT I WOULD EXPECT.

THAT'S -- I WILL BE MEETING WITH MY COUNTERPART, AND THAT'S WHAT I WILL LOOK TO DO.

YOU KNOW, NOT TO SUGAR COAT ANYTHING, NOT TO PRETEND THAT THIS ISN'T A GREAT COMPETITION, BUT TO BE DIRECT, AND HONEST, AND ALSO, TO, AS I SAID BEFORE, FIGURE OUT, WHAT ARE THE WAYS TO MOST RESPONSIBLY MANAGE THIS RELATIONSHIP?

>> SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ACHIEVED WHEN YOU WERE IN BEIJING, TALKING TO YOUR COUNTERPART?

>> I WAS THE FIRST U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY IN MORE THAN FIVE YEARS TO BE IN BEIJING IN PERSON.

SO, CANDIDLY, THE FACT THAT I SHOWED UP AND SPENT HOURS WITH THE PREMIER, THE VICE PREMIER, MY COUNTERPART, WAS IN AND OF ITSELF EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW YOURSELF, HAVING COVERED THE WORLD FOR SO MANY YEARS, WHEN THERE'S NO DIALOGUE, THAT TENDS TO DEVOLVE INTO CONFLICT AND INCREASE TENSION.

BUT ONCE AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING.

WHAT I'M ABLE TO PUT ONTO THE TABLE, THE FACT THAT U.S.

BUSINESSES ARE FEELING THAT CHINA IS INCREASINGLY U.N. VESTABLE, BECAUSE OF THE ANTI-ESPIONAGE ACT, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF PREDEKABILITY OF THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE OF RAIDS ON U.S.

BUSINESSES, AND AT LEAST GIVE THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND AND MAKE CHANGES.

>> I UNDERSTAND THEY REALLY CAME AT YOU HARD TO TRY TO GIVE ON SOME OF THESE MAJOR TRADE ISSUES, AND THAT IS, FOR INSTANCE, THE STRINGENT CONTROLS ON EXPORTS AND MOST ADVANCED SEMICONDUCTORS, AS WELL AS THE EQUIPMENT TO MAKE THEM.

WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> MY RESPONSE IS THAT THERE CAN BE NO NEGOTIATION WHEN IT COMES TO MATTERS OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

MY RESPONSE IS THAT WE NEED TO, I NEED TO, PROTECT THE MOST SOPHISTICATED UGS TECHNOLOGY.

AND I HAVE TO U.S. EVERY TOOL IN MY TOOLBOX TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR MOST SOPHISTICATED SEMICONDUCTOR CHIPS, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE MODELS, NEVER GET INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHINESE MILITARY.

THAT BEING SAID, WE ALSO NEED TO PROMOTE WHERE WE CAN.

YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY, WE HAVE A $700 BILLION TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA.

THE VAST MAJORITY, 99% OF THAT, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EXPORT CONTROLS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT JOBS?

AMERICAN PEOPLE, PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD, ARE WORRIED FOR THEIR JOBS, BUT YOU HAVE A PERSONAL, I GUESS, RELATIONSHIP WITH JOBS.

YOUR OWN FATHER WAS, YOU KNOW, PART OF A WATCH-MAKING COMPANY, EVENTUALLY THAT COMPANY WAS SHUTTERED, ALL THE JOBS OUTSOURCED TO CHINA.

YOU UNDERSTAND, PERSONALLY.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WORKER IN THE RELEVANT AREAS THERE?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SO FOCUSED, AND OBSESSED WITH BRINGING MANUFACTURING BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S WHY I TOOK THIS JOB, CHRISTIANE, WHEN THE PRESIDENT CALLED ME AND SAID, HEY, GOVERNOR, WILL YOU JOIN ME TO BE THE COMMERCE SECRETARY?

AND BE MY PARTNER IN REVITALIZING U.S. MANUFACTURING?

I LEAPT AT THAT OPPORTUNITY, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DOING.

YOU KNOW, BY THE TIME I'M DONE DOING THE WORK, IMPLEMENTING THE CHIPS ACT, WE'LL HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF NEW, HIGH-PAYING, SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING JOBS IN THE UNITED STATES.

BY THE TIME WE'RE DONE IMPLEMENTING THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, WE'LL HAVE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF NEW MANUFACTURING JOBS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, WE CANNOT GIVE UP THE GHOST ON U.S. MANUFACTURING.

AND THAT IS WHY WE'RE MAKING THESE INVESTMENTS, TO BRING BACK A GREAT DEAL OF MANUFACTURING JOBS TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT ABOUT A.I.?

YOU WERE LAST WEEK HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, ALONG WITH VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS, ELON MUSK, ALL THOSE PEOPLE, AT A VERY IMPORTANT A.I.

SUMMIT.

AND ELON MUSK HAS SAID SOMETHING REALLY SCARY, THAT ACTUALLY, IN THE FUTURE, THERE MAY BE NO NEED FOR ANY JOBS, EXCEPT IF PEOPLE JUST WANT TO SPEND THEIR TIME WORKING.

>> WE CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

THAT IS A TERRIBLE OUTCOME.

IT'S WITHIN OUR CONTROL.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS A VERY POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY.

WE WILL MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.

AND WE WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF ALL THE WORK THAT WE'RE DOING.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED A COMPREHENSIVE AND BOLD EXECUTIVE ORDER RECENTLY RELATED TO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

A.I.

IS EXCITING.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT USING A.I.

TO FIND CURES FOR CANCER, OR DEAL WITH THE CLIMATE CRISIS, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE.

THAT BEING SAID, WE CAN ONLY HARNESS THE GOOD OF A.I.

IF WE FIRST KEEP A LID ON THE RISKS.

>> YOU KNOW TIKTOK IS A HUGE THING, AND A MATTER OF GREAT CONTENTION BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA, AND YET, EVERY YOUNG PERSON IN THE WORLD IS ON IT, IT CAME UP IN THE LATEST GOP PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

WHERE DOES THE UNITED STATES STAND ON, YOU KNOW, THE MATTER OF TIKTOK?

>> IT POSES SERIOUS NATIONAL SECURITY RISKS.

THERE IS A BILL WEEDING ITS WAY THROUGH THE CONGRESS RIGHT NOW WOULD ALLOW THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT TO HAVE TOOLS TO RESTRAIN OR DISALLOW COMPANIES LIKE TIKTOK IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT IS A PIECE OF LEGISLATION WHICH I SUPPORT.

IT IS -- IT'S A FACT THAT WHEN A COMPANY LIKE THAT HAS SO MUCH DATA AND LOCATION DATA ON SO MANY AMERICANS, IT POSES EXTREME NATIONAL SECURITY RISKS, AND SO, WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN THE TOOLS HERE AT THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT TO ALLOW US TO DO A BETTER JOB OF REGULATING TIKTOK, BUT OTHER COMPANIES LIKE TIKTOK.

>> I WONDER IF THE, YOU KNOW, THE PANDORA'S BOX HASN'T ALREADY BEEN OPENED, AND WHETHER YOU'RE LATE TO THE GAME?

>> PERHAPS, BUT I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE NOW AND GOING FORWARD, AND THAT'S WHY I'M WORKING HARD WITH CONGRESS TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO PASS THIS LAW, SO WE CAN GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT BEING A WOMAN IN THE TOP JOBS.

I'VE SPOKEN TO SO MANY STRONG AND POWERFUL WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD, HILLARY CLINTON, OBVIOUSLY COMES TO MIND, BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY OF THEM.

NIKKI HALEY IS VYING TO BE THE FIRST EVER FEMALE PRESIDENT ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

YOU WERE THE FIRST FEMALE GOVERNOR OF RHODE ISLAND, AND YOU'VE HAD SO MANY CREE MILESTONES LIKE THAT.

HOW HAVE YOU FOUND IT, YOU KNOW, THE RACE TO THE TOP, BEING A WOMAN?

AND WHAT IS THE AFFECT OF HAVING WOMEN IN TOP DECISION-MAKING POSITIONS?

>> IT'S HARD.

YOU KNOW YOURSELF, YOU KNOW?

I COULD ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION.

IT'S HARD.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

IT'S HARDER FOR WOMEN.

PEOPLE ARE USED TO SEEING MEN IN THE TOP JOB, PARTICULARLY IN EXECUTIVE POSITIONS.

AT THE TIME I BECAME GOVERNOR, I WAS ONE OF FOUR FEMALE GOVERNORS IN THE CUP TRY.

I REMEMBER CONSTANTLY BEING AT GOVERNOR'S CONFERENCES WITH -- BEING THE ONLY WOMAN.

BUT I TELL YOU THIS, I'M NOT SHURI RI -- SURE RHODE ISLAND WOULD HAVE UNIVERSAL ALL-DAY KINDERGARTEN IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A MOTHER THAT WAS A GOVERNOR.

I WAS THE FIRST MOTHER TO BE GOVERNOR OF RHODE ISLAND.

IN THE CHIPS ACT THAT I'M IMPLEMENTING NOW, I'VE ASKED THE COMPANIES THAT WANT TO RECEIVE CHIPS MONEY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT CHILD CARE SO WOMEN CAN WORK SUCCESSFULLY IN YOUR FACILITIES?

I'M NOT SURE THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THERE WERE A MAN AS COMMERCE SECRETARY.

AND I KNOW THAT HAVING WOMEN IN TOP JOBS RESULTS IN, YOU KNOW, A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW AND BETTER DECISIONS.

I WOULD ARGUE, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD TODAY, IT IS HARD TO ESCAPE THE CONCLUSION THAT WE NEED MORE WOMEN IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP, LEADING COUNTRIES, LEADING COMPANIES, LEADING MAJOR NONPROFITS.

SO, I WON'T PRETEND IT'S EASY, I WON'T PRETEND THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE JUDGED BY A DIFFERENT STANDARD, BUT I WILL SAY, WE HAVE TO STAY IN IT, BECAUSE THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE BECAUSE OF IT.

>> AND I OBVIOUSLY WOULD AGREE WITH YOU 1,000%.

AND ALSO, IN THE REALM OF PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, NATIONAL SECURITY, AND THE LIKE.

BUT I DID TEASE A BIT OF PASTA PEACEBUILDING.

YOU HAD SENATOR JOE MANCHIN AND THE CHIEF OF STAFF AT THE TIME, RON KLAIN.

TELL ME ABOUT IT.

>> WELL, IT MAY BE THAT I'M ITALIAN MORE THAN THE FACT THAT I'M A WOMAN.

ALTHOUGH I WILL TELL YOU, MY MOTHER, WHO WAS THE MOST INCREDIBLE WOMAN I'VE EVER KNOWN, HAD A STRONG BELIEF THAT THERE'S NO PROBLEM THAT CAN'T BE CURED WITH A GOOD ITALIAN MEAL.

AND I DO SORT OF BELIEVE THAT, AS AN ITALIAN MOTHER MYSELF.

I THINK IT MATTERS, TO YOUR POINT, ABOUT THE MEETINGS WE'LL HAVE NEXT WEEK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE'RE ALL PEOPLE WITH THE SAME, YOU KNOW, HUMANITY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, SOLVING THESE PROBLEMS IS TO THE BENEFIT OF OUR SHARED HUMANITY, AND THERE IS TRULY NO SUBSTITUTE FOR GETTING TOGETHER IN PERSON, PERHAPS AROUND A MEAL, PERHAPS IN A CASUAL SETTING, WHERE YOU FIRST TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT AT-HAND, AND THEN THAT RAPPORT, THAT LITTLE BIT OF TRUST, THAT RECOGNITION OF, YOU KNOW, THIS PERSON IS A MOTHER OR A FATHER, TOO, THIS PERSON HAS THEIR OWN HEALTH STRUGGLES THEY'RE DEALING WITH, THAT BASIC BIT OF TRUST-BUILDING CAN GO SUCH A LONG WAY, AND I WOULD SAY, WE'VE LOST SOME OF THAT.

YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY, ARGUABLY, HERE IN WASHINGTON TODAY, YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDS TRITE, BUT BREAKING BREAD, GETTING TO KNOW PEOPLE, REALLY DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND SO, THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE CAREER, I HAVE ALWAYS SAID, I'LL GO ANYWHERE, I'LL TALK TO ANYONE, I'LL WORK WITH ANYONE, IF IT HELPED TO GET THE JOB DONE.

>> WELL, WE HOPE THAT WHEN PRESIDENT XI AND BIDEN MEET, THAT THERE WILL BE SOME OF THAT INGREDIENT IN THERE, TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

SECRETARY GINA RAIMONDO, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> RAISING TEMPERATURES, THOUGH, IS THIS ONGOING CLASH OF CULTURES, REALLY, OVER THIS WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO, CANCELED CLASSES IN JEWISH SCHOOLS, VANDALIZED HOMES, SYNAGOGUES LOCKED UP, THE REALITY OF THE UNPRECEDENTED SURGE OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE UNITED STATES IS CREATING A CLIMATE OF FEAR AMONGST JEWISH COMMUNITIES.

AMERICAN MUSLIMS ARE FACING A STEEP RISE IN INCIDENTS OF ISLAMOPHOBIA.

AS THE ISRAEL-GAZA CONFLICT REPLACES DEBATE WITH HATE AND VIOLENT.

AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST EMILY TAMKIN JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

>> EMILY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> OF COURSE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> HERE WITH THIS RECENT PIECE FOR "SLATE," IT REALLY CAUGHT OUR ATTENTION, AND YOU START IT BY DESCRIBING ANTI-SEMITIC INCIDENTS THAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED FROM THE TIME YOU WERE A LITTLE KID.

AND SO, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THAT, OR DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO HAS, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US, LIKE, ONE OR TWO OF THE THINGS THAT YOU STARTED WITH YOUR PIECE WITH?

>> I STARTED THE PIECE WITH AN INCIDENT FROM WHEN I WAS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL THAT I STILL REMEMBER TO THIS DAY.

SOMEBODY HAD DRAWN A SWASTIKA ON A BATHROOM STALL.

THERE WAS AN ASSEMBLY, AND I REMEMBER SOBBING IN THE CAR LATER ON, BECAUSE THE IDEA THAT SOMEBODY COULD HAVE THIS SORT OF HATE TOWARD JEWS INCLUDING MYSELF WAS REALLY HEARTBREAKING.

WHEN YOU SEE THAT AT A VERY YOUNG AGE AND YOU EXPERIENCE THAT AT A YOUNG AGE, IT REALLY, I THINK, CAN HELP SHAPE YOUR IDENTITY IN A WAY THAT'S QUITE DEFENSIVE AND QUITE REACTIVE.

AND SO, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN VERY PROUD TO BE JEWISH, BUT I THINK FOR MANY YEARS, AS A YOUNG PERSON, I REALLY THOUGHT OF THAT AS BEING ABOUT FIGHTING AND STANDING UP TO ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND I STILL THINK THAT THAT'S PART OF JEWISHNESS AND JEWISH IDENTITY, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT ONLY DEFINING YOURSELF THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE'S HATRED, AND ONLY DEFINING YOURSELF THROUGH YOUR FEAR, CAN BE QUITE LIMITING, AND QUITE REDUCKIVE, AND IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL, CAN CLOSE YOU OFF TO ALSO SEEING THE PAIN AND THE FEAR THAT OTHERS ARE EXPERIENCING.

>> FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO READ IT YET, AND I HOPE THEY WILL, YOU SAY, "WHAT SHOULD AMERICAN JEWS DO WITH OUR FEAR?

WE'RE SCARED, BUT RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE TO BE MORE THAN THAT."

SO, IF YOU COULD JUST START BY TELLING ME, WHY DID YOU WANT TO START THE PIECE THAT WAY?

AND WHY DID YOU WANT TO WRITE THIS PIECE TO BEGIN WITH?

>> OF COURSE.

I STARTED THE PIECE WITH ACKNOWLEDGING MY OWN HISTORY WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AND MY OWN FEAR, AND MORE BROADLY, WITH THE FEAR THAT I KNOW THAT MANY AMERICAN JEWS ARE FEELING RIGHT NOW.

ACCORDING TO A RECENT STUDY THAT CAME OUT AFTER THIS PIECE BY THE JEWISH FEDERATIONS OF NORTH AMERICA, 70% OF AMERICAN JEWS FEEL MORE AFRAID AND HAVE -- ARE WARIER OF INCREASED ANTI-SEMITISM RIGHT NOW WITH ISRAEL'S ONGOING WAR.

AND I STARTED WITH THAT, BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT PEOPLE ARE SCARED, AND THAT THERE ARE REAL THREATS TO AMERICAN JEWS RIGHT NOW, AND THAT I THINK WE SHOULD SPEAK UP AGAINST THOSE AND CALL OUT ANTI-SEMITISM WHERE WE SEE IT.

AND, NOT BUT THAT THAT FEAR IS NOT THE ONLY FEAR THAT IS BEING EXPERIENCED RIGHT NOW.

THAT IS NOT THE ONLY PAIN THAT IS BEING EXPERIENCED RIGHT NOW.

AND AGAIN, I THINK FEAR CAN DO ONE OF TWO THINGS.

IT CAN MAKE YOU QUITE TRIBAL, AND SORT OF ONLY RECOGNIZE YOUR FEAR AND YOUR COMMUNITY'S FEAR, OR, ALTERNATIVELY, AND IN A SAD WAY, IT CAN BE AN OPENING, AN OPPORTUNITY.

SO, I KNOW THAT ESPECIALLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AMERICAN JEWS ARE YOUNG, PROCESSING THIS ON THEIR OWN.

I KNOW THAT THAT FEAR IS REAL.

BUT I AM QUITE SURE THAT THERE ARE MUSLIM AMERICAN PEERS AND PALESTINIAN AMERICAN AND PALESTINIAN COLLEAGUES ARE FEELING FEAR, AND HOW COYOU HAVE -- HOW DO YOU ALLOW ROOM FOR BOTH?

SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF, I DON'T THINK AMERICAN JEWISH FEAR IS AN ACCEPTABLE REASON TO SHUT DOWN DISCUSSION AND DEBATE.

EMOTIONS ARE HEIGHTENED, AND WE ARE IN A SENSITIVE TIME, BUT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IS ALSO SUPPORTING ONGOING BOMBARDMENT OF GAZA, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S ANTI-SEMITIC TO SAY THAT.

IN FACT, I KNOW IT'S NOT.

AND I KNOW IT'S IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THREATS TO AMERICAN JEWS AND -- WHICH EXIST, AND WHICH WE SHOULD BE VERY COMFORTABLE SPEAKING UP AGAINST, RIGHT?

THE KOSHER DINING HALL AT CORNELL SHOULD NOT BE THREATENED.

HOWEVER, DOES CANCELING A BOOK ABOUT -- A BOOK TALK FROM AN AUTHOR WHO WROTE A BOOK ABOUT A MAN FROM THE WEST BANK, OR CANCELLING PALESTINIAN WRITERS AND AUTHORS AND PEEKERS, DOES THAT KEEP AMERICAN JEWS SAFER?

I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT DOESN'T.

SO, THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE PIECE, AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.

>> THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME THAT JEWS AROUND THE WORLD, AND AMERICAN JEWS IN PARTICULAR, HAVE HAD DISAGREEMENTS WITH THE WAY THAT ISRAEL HAS CONDUCTED ITSELF, BOTH DOMESTICALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY, AND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> SURE.

MY BOOK, IT LOOKS AT THE LAST ROUGHLY 100 YEARS OF AMERICAN JEWISH IDENTITIES AND HOW WE'VE FORMED OUR IDENTITIES AND RENDERED OURSELVES BOTH LEGIBLE TO THE WIDER COUNTRY, BUT ALSO TO ONE ANOTHER.

AND HOW WE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE JEWISH IN AMERICA?

WHAT'S THE RIGHT SET OF POLITICS TO HAVE IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL, FOR MUCH OF THE 20th CENTURY, SUPPORTING ISRAEL WAS REALLY ONE PILLAR OF MANY AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITIES.

AND FOR YOUNGER GENERATIONS, ESPECIALLY, NOT EXCLUSIVELY, THAT'S REALLY BEEN TESTED IN RECENT YEARS.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE IN YOUR 30s, YOUR 20s, YOU'VE REALLY ONLY -- AND YOU ARE AN AMERICAN JEW, YOU'VE ONLY SEEN THE SITUATION GET MORE VIOLENT, RIGHT?

AND MORE SEEMINGLY HOPELESS.

TO PUT IT ANOTHER WAY, YOU KNOW, THE YOUNGER AMERICAN JEWS CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE CAN COUCH THAT ARGUMENT IN JEWISH TRADITION AND JEWISH VALUES.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING THAT THEY STAND WITH ISRAEL UNEQUIVOCALLY, THEY CAN ONLY COUCH THAT IN JEWISH HISTORY AND JEWISH VALUES.

AND TO SAY THAT EITHER ONE IS NOT JEWISH, AS OPPOSED TO GIVING THE SPACE TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT AND TO HAVE THE DEBATE AND TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION, I THINK, ONE, I THINK IT'S QUITE CRUEL TO SAY THAT A PERSON WHO IS GRIEVING AND MOURNING AND ANGRY AND AFRAID ISN'T JEWISH, THAT THEY'RE SOMEHOW AN IMPOSTER, BUT IT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT, RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST SAYING, WELL, YOU'RE NOT JEWISH, YOU'RE NOT TAKING PART IN THE DISCUSSION OR DEBATE.

YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT ISN'T REAL.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN AMERICAN JEWISH TRADITION OF DOING THAT, BUT I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THAT'S NOT THE MOST USEFUL TRADITION TO HOLD UP RIGHT NOW.

>> ARE PEOPLE BASICALLY SAYING THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVEN'T JEWISH BECAUSE THEY DON'T AGREE WITH THE -- ISRAEL'S CONDUCT OF THE WAR, OR, AT LEAST RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT IT?

ARE PEOPLE DOING THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'VE SEEN THAT JEWS WHO HAVE CALLED FOR A CEASE-FIRE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY'RE NOT REALLY JEWISH.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE COME OUT AND SAY THAT ANTI-ZIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM, AND WE SHOULD SAY THERE ARE ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS.

THERE ARE PROFESSORS WHO DO NOT CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE ZIONIST.

AND IT'S WORTH ASKING, IF THEY, OR PALESTINIAN STUDENTS WHO ARE CRITICAL OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEIR OWN FAMILIES, IF THEY ARE ONLY MOTIVATED BY HATRED OF JEWISH PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A TIME OF HEIGHTENED EMOTION AND THAT PEOPLE ARE VERY -- THAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, PEOPLE ARE IN PAIN, BUT IT'S PRECISELY FOR THAT REASON THAT I THINK WE SHOULD BE TREATING EACH OTHER IN GOOD FAITH.

ACKNOWLEDGING EACH OTHER'S FEAR AND PAIN, AND NOT TRYING TO SHUT DOWN DISCUSSION, DEBATE, AND ARGUMENT.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO FAR AWAY FROM THE CURRENT MOMENT, WHICH YOU'VE WRITTEN SO ELOQUENTLY ABOUT, BUT I WANTED TO ASK IF, WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING HERE, GROUPS OR INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE WHO SEE THEMSELVES AS PRO ISRAEL, DENOUNCING PEOPLE WHO HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT, OR WHO CRITICIZE ISRAEL'S CONDUCT IN THIS WAR, OR ITS RESPONSE TO THE, YOU KNOW, VICIOUS ASSAULT BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th, PEOPLE SORT OF DENOUNCING THEM AS ANTI-SEMITIC OR ANTI-ISRAEL, IS THERE AN HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR THAT?

>> THERE ABSOLUTELY IS.

FOR MUCH OF THE 20th CENTURY, ISRAEL, REALLY SINCE ITS FOUNDING, BUT PARTICULARLY AFTER THE WARS IN '67 AND '73, TO BE AN AMERICAN JEW, IN MANY AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITIES, MEANT TO SUPPORT ISRAEL.

AND AS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND IN ISRAEL HAS CHANGED, MANY AMERICAN JEWS, PARTICULARLY OF YOUNGER GENERATIONS, HAVE BECOME LESS COMFORTABLE OF THAT.

WE WERE IN THIS MOMENT OF PUSH AND PULL BETWEEN WHAT HAS BEEN AND WHAT WILL BE AND SORT OF THE -- IT'S A POLITICAL DISPUTE, IT'S A GENERATIONAL DISPUTE.

INTERESTINGLY, FOR THE PAST, FOR MUCH OF THE PAST YEAR, BECAUSE THE CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS SO FAR RIGHT AND SO EXTREME AND SAYS HORRIBLE THINGS, NOT ONLY ABOUT PALESTINIANS, BUT ALSO ABOUT LGBTQ PEOPLE AND REFORM JEWS, WHICH IS THE LARGEST DENOMINATION IN THE U.S. AND OTHER GROUPS, THE LIBERAL JEWISH MAINSTREAM IN THE UNITED STATES WAS BECOMING INCREASINGLY CRITICAL OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, SUPPORTIVE OF THE PRO-DEMOCRACY PROTESTERS.

ON OCTOBER 7th, YOU SEE THESE SAME GROUPS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS COME OUT AND JUST SAY, I STAND WITH ISRAEL, WHICH, I THINK, I ALSO WROTE ABOUT THIS FOR "SLATE," I THINK IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

IN THAT MOMENT, YOU WANT TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE REELING FROM AN ATTACK, BUT IN THE MONTH SINCE, I THINK THE SORT OF LIBERAL AMERICAN JEWISH MAINSTREAM HAS TRIED TO SORT OUT, IN A VERY POLARIZING MOMENT, RIGHT, WHAT IT MEANS TO STAND WITH ISRAEL.

DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE SUPPORTING THE GOVERNMENT?

DOES IT MEAN THAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING THE GOVERNMENT, BUT SAYING, OKAY, NOW WE NEED A TWO-STATE SOLUTION?

DOES IT MEAN CALLING FOR NETANYAHU'S RESIGNATION?

DOES IT MEAN STANDING WITH THE ISRAELIS WHO ARE CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE?

SO, I THINK WE WERE IN A POLARIZED MOMENT BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, BUT IN TIMES OF CRISIS, THAT POLARIZATION IS EXACERBATED AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN AMERICAN JEWISH POLITICS TODAY.

>> I'LL READ WHAT YOU SAID, I'M JUST ASKING, TO WHOM ARE YOU DIRECTING THIS?

I DO NOT WANT AMERICAN JEWS AT THIS MOMENT TO REDUCE OURSELVES TO OUR FEAR.

WE ARE ENTITLED TO OUR FEAR.

BUT WE ARE ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY CAPABLE OF NUANCE AND EMPATHY AND SOLIDARITY AND REFUSAL TO SEE OURSELVES ONLY AS THE OBJECTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

TO WHOM DO YOU MAKE THIS APPEAL?

>> SO, THIS IS, OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS A PERSONAL APPEAL, AND I HOPE THAT PEOPLE, IN THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL LIVES, CAN FIND IT IN THEMSELVES TO DO THAT, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY BE HARD, AND EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE AFRAID AND THEY ARE IN A MOMENT OF PAIN, RIGHT, TO JUST -- GOING ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE, TO BE ABLE TO EXTEND THAT SAME THING TO OTHERS.

THAT'S AN EMPATHY THAT YOU'RE CRAVING TO OTHERS.

IT'S ALSO A POLITICAL REQUEST, YOU KNOW?

I THINK -- THERE HAS BEEN MUCH -- MANY HAVE COMMENTED ON WHAT A SCARY MOMENT THIS IS FOR AMERICAN JEWS, PARTICULARLY GIVEN JEWISH HISTORY.

I THINK THAT'S COMPLETELY VALID.

HOWEVER, WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT WE ARE AFFORDED PROTECTIONS BY THE STATE, AND THAT HAS NOT ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, IN AMERICAN JEWISH OR IN JEWISH HISTORY.

THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION.

WE ARE NOT BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY THE STATE.

AND SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, TO HEAR A MEMBER OF CONGRESS CALL FOR PALESTINIANS TO BE DEPORTED FROM THIS COUNTRY, OR TO HEAR ISLAMOPHOBIA NOT BEEN AS FORCEFULLY DENOUNCED BY POLITICAL LEADERS, OR BY PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA, OR, YOU KNOW, I'M A MEMBER OF THE MEDIA, I'M CHASTISING MY OWN, OR GENERALLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S PERSONAL, BUT IT IS ALSO POLITICAL.

AND THE FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY AND THE RIGHT TO POLITICAL EXPRESSION, YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- I WANT THAT FOR AMERICAN JEWS, BUT NOT ONLY FOR AMERICAN JEWS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SORT OF STRUCK ME IS THAT -- HOW SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPOKEN OUT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th HAVE REALLY SPOKEN TO THE SENSE OF BEING ALONE, OR FEELING ALONE, LIKE NOBODY ELSE CARES.

AND ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN YOUR PIECE IS THAT, YEAH, A LOT OF PEOPLE CARE.

JEWISH PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE NOT ALONE.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS EXPRESSED HIS SOLIDARITY AND CONCERN AND, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO, I'M JUST WONDERING, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE DIVIDE -- WHAT OTHER DIVIDES ARE THERE, APART FROM GENERATION?

IS IT THAT SOME PEOPLE STILL FEEL VERY ALONE AND DON'T SEE ALLIES OR, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK YOU ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT TO POINT OUT THAT IT'S NOT ONLY GENERATIONAL.

I'VE SPOKEN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE MUCH OLDER THAN ME WHO HAVE EXPRESSED REAL CONCERN OVER WHAT'S HAPPENING TO PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, I HAVE SPOKEN TO PEOPLE MY AGE OR YOUNGER WHO HAVE -- WHO HAVE, LET'S SAY, ARE TO MY RIGHT ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK SOME WOULD SAY, WELL, IT'S ABOUT HOW CLOSE THEY ARE TO ISRAEL, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ROUGHLY HALF OF AMERICAN JEWS HAVE NEVER BEEN TO ISRAEL, AND SO, IF YOU -- IF YOU FEEL A CLOSER TIE TO THAT COUNTRY TO THE COUNTRY, IF YOU HAVE FREEDS THERE, IF YOU HAVE FAMILY THERE, THAT CAN ALSO IMPACT YOUR DECISION, THOUGH I SHOULD SAY THAT MANY OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW WHO ARE MOST CRITICAL OF ISRAEL ARE CRITICAL BECAUSE THEY'VE SPENT AS MUCH TIME THERE AS THEY HAVE.

WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE, I MEAN, THERE -- THERE ARE SEVERAL FACTORS, SO, MOST AMERICAN JEWS, THEIR FAMILIES CAME OVER IN THE 19th OR 20th CENTURIES AND THEY ARE DESCENDED FROM CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPEANS.

THERE ARE AMERICAN JEWS WHOSE FAMILY CAME OVER LATER.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, PERSIAN JEWS WHO ESCAPED IRAN OR JEWS WHO LEFT THE FORMER SOVIET UNION.

MANY ARE LIKELIER TO HAVE FAMILY IN ISRAEL, AND MANY ARE CLOSER TO THEIR OWN SORT OF PERCEIVED MOMENT OF, NOT PERCEIVED, THEIR OWN MOMENT OF TRAUMA AND DEPARTURE, SO, THE STATE OF ISRAEL LOOMS LARGER IN THEIR JEWISHNESS AND THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING OF SELF.

AND SO, IT'S -- I DON'T THINK YOU CAN POINT TO ANY ONE THING.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR PIECE IS THAT THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS TAKE PLACE IN ISRAEL ALL THE TIME.

AND ESPECIALLY AMONG PEOPLE WHO SPEND A LOT OF TIME THERE.

SO, I WONDER WHY YOU FEEL LIKE PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES FEEL KIND OF ENTITLED TO BE SO -- >> YEAH, I THINK THAT, I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE THE SIZE OF THE ISRAELI LEFT OR HOW MANY IN ISRAEL ARE CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

I DO THINK THAT OFTEN ISRAELIS ARE FAR MORE CRITICAL OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, OF WHAT THE STATE IS DOING, THAN PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE FIRST IS THAT, I THINK MANY AMERICAN JEWS SEE, WELL, IT'S NOT MY PLACE, RIGHT, THEY ARE LIVING THERE, SO THEY CAN CRITICIZE, I'M HERE, SO, I CAN'T.

AND IF I DO, IT WILL SORT OF ALLOW OTHER AMERICANS TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL.

AND I THINK THE SECOND THING IS THAT FOR MANY AMERICAN JEWS, ISRAEL IS -- I WANT TO BE CAREFUL HOW I SAY THIS, BUT I DO THINK THAT FOR MANY AMERICAN JEWS, ISRAEL IS STILL AN IDEA AS WELL AS A COUNTRY, AND THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT AMERICAN JEWS DON'T HAVE FAMILY THERE, DON'T HAVE FRIENDS THERE, OF COURSE, BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE IS A TENDENCY IN AMERICAN JEWISH POLITICS TO -- TO SPEAK OF AN ISRAEL THAT IS SOMEWHAT DIVORCED FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

AND THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT SPEND MUCH MORE TIME ON ISRAEL THAN I DO WHO HAVE SAID THE SAME, SO, I FEEL COMFORTABLE SAYING THAT, AND I THINK THAT'S A DIFFERENCE, AS WELL.

>> DID YOU HESITATE BEFORE WRITING THIS PIECE?

>> I DID.

YOU KNOW, I FIRST WANT TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE THIS IS A CHALLENGING TIME TO BE A WRITER OR A JOURNALIST, BUT I'M NOT IN ISRAEL AND I'M NOT IN GAZA, AND I JUST THINK THAT AS AMERICAN JOURNALISTS, I FEEL A RESPONSIBILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN, LIKE, THAT'S ACTUALLY CHALLENGING, THAT'S ACTUAL DANGER.

I HESITATED BECAUSE I -- NOT EVEN SO MUCH THAT, OH, WHAT IF PEOPLE YELL AT ME, BUT I WANT TO BE SENSITIVE TO THIS MOMENT, TO THE PAIN THAT PEOPLE ARE IN AND THE FEAR THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING, AND ULTIMATELY, I DECIDED TO WRITE IT, NOT DESPITE THAT, BUT BECAUSE OF IT.

>> SAY MORE.

>> BECAUSE I THINK THAT -- I THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE AMERICAN JEWISH FEAR, AND AMERICAN JEWISH PAIN, AND I ALSO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO SEE THAT, NOT AS A REASON TO -- TO TURN OURSELVES OFF FROM THE FEELINGS OF OTHERS OR TO SHUT DOWN FOREIGN POLICY DEBATE.

YOU KNOW, I REALLY -- IT'S BECAUSE I WANT TO BE SENSITIVE IN FEAR AND PAIN, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO BOTH ACKNOWLEDGE IT AND ALSO TO ASK PEOPLE TO CONSIDER IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO -- TO HEAR OTHER'S NARRATIVES AND HEAR THEIR PAIN AND FEAR, AND ALSO THAT I, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF AS AN AMERICAN JEW, I DO NOT WANT MY FEAR TO BE USED TO CHILL SPEECH OR DISCUSSION, AND SO, I FELT A RESPONSIBILITY WITH THE SMALL PLATFORM THAT I HAVE IN THAT WAY TO PUT THAT FORTH.

>> EMILY TAMKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> INDEED ONLY SPEECH AND DISCUSSION WILL HELP RESOLVE THIS.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, MORE THAN A BILLION PEOPLE OVER THE WEEKEND CELEBRATED DIWALI, AND THE TRIUMPH OF LIGHT OVER DARKNESS.

THE FESTIVAL HAS HINDU ORIGINS, BUT IT IS OBSERVED BY MULTIPLE RELIGIONS.

DIWALI MEANS "ROW OF LIGHTS," AND IN NORTHERN INDIA, 2.2 MILLION OIL LAMPS LIT UP THE BANKS OF THE RIVER THAT RUNS THROUGH A TOWN.

THIS YEAR, CELEBRATIONS IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY HAVE OFFICIALLY BEEN SCALED BACK, AS INDIA BATTLES AIR POLLUTION THAT FIREWORKS CAN MAKE WORSE.

ALTHOUGH MANY COULDN'T RESIST.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR YOUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.