>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU DEFIES THE PRESSURE FROM PEOPLE AT HOME AND FRIENDS ABROAD.

I SPEAK TO HIS TOP ADVISOR, AND THEN FORMER ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR DANIEL LEVY TELLS ME IT IS FINALLY TIME TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT A PEACE SETTLEMENT.

PLUS THE WOMEN OF NOW.

HISTORIAN CATHERINE TURR TARKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IT FEMINIST ORGANIZATION THAT CHANGED AMERICA.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FROM TEL AVIV TO JERUSALEM FAMILY OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES TODAY BEGAN A FIVE-DAY MARCH TO PRESSURE THEIR GOVERNMENT TO BRING HOME THEIR LOVED ONES.

POLLS SHOW ISRAELIS ARE SOURING ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, THOUGH TRUST IN THE MILITARY REMAINS HIGH.

IN WASHINGTON, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS HE BELIEVES A DEAL ON FREEING HOSTAGES IS GOING TO HAPPEN SOON.

BUT AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND AROUND THE WORLD, PROSECUTION OF THE WAR IS CREATING HUGE ANXIETY.

IN THE FACE OF CONSTANT ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT INCLUDING AROUND HOMES AND HOSPITALS AND THE EVER MOUNTING CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL IN GAZA.

>> IT IS MY HOPE AND EXPECTATION THAT THERE WILL BE LESS INTRUSIVE ACTION RELATIVE TO THE HOSPITAL.

>> DE FACTO TO THE CIVILIAN AMOUNT, DE FACTO IT'S BABIES, IT'S LADIES, IT'S OLD PEOPLE ARE BOMBED AND KILLED, THERE IS NO REASON FOR THAT.

>> SO ISRAEL MUST BE ABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST TERROR, RESTORE ITS SECURITY AND BRING HOSTAGES HOME, BUT THERE ARE MANY THINGS ISRAEL MUST DO AS PART OF ITS RESPONSE.

>> NETTEN AHAS SO FAR REBUFFED ANY CALLS TO CHANGE CALLS.

HERE'S NOW SENIOR ADVISOR MARK.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU'RE JOINING US FROM TEL AVIV.

CAN I START BY ASKING ABOUT THESE REALLY LARGE MARCHES THAT ARE HAPPENING AND WHAT BOTH YOUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID.

TELL US MORE ABOUT THESE POTENTIAL DEALS WHEN A RELEASE COULD HAPPEN.

>> IF WE ARE CLOSER TO A HOSTAGE RELEASE, AND I'M NOT SURE WE ARE, BUT IF WE ARE CLOSER, IT'S BECAUSE HAMAS IS UNDER AMAZING PRESSURE.

OUR FORCES ARE IN THE EPICENTER.

THEY'RE TAKING ON THE HAMAS TERRORISTS IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT.

WE'RE GETTING CLOSE TO HAMAS LEADERSHIP.

THEY ARE FEELING THE PAIN.

THEY MIGHT NOW I HOPE MOVE ON RELEASE HOSTAGES, BUT WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

BOTH YOUR GOVERNMENT PUT OUT SOME ALERT WE'VE SEEN AND PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THEY BELIEVE IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN SOON, THEY'RE MAKING PROGRESS.

YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE BELIEVING THAT.

>> IT'S NOT DONE UNTIL IT'S DONE.

WE'D BE HAPPIER THAN ANYONE TO SEE HOSTAGES RELEASED.

WE'RE DEALING WITH HAMAS AND TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

OF THE 239 PEOPLE BEING HELD 32 ARE BABIES AND INFANTS.

THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SUDDENLY BECOME HUMANITARIANS.

THEY'LL ONLY RELEASE HOSTAGES IF THEY'RE UNDER PRESSURE.

>> I'M ASKING YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING THERE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE AND WHAT DOES THE PRIME MINISTER MAKE OF THE PRESSURE NOW BY ISRAELI PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY BRING THEM HOME?

WE'VE SEEN POLLS SHOWING MOST ISRAELI NOW THINK THAT SHOULD BE A PRIME OBJECT OF THE MILITARY OPERATION, AND YOU'VE SEEN ACTUAL MARCHES, AND THERE WERE VERY POINTED, ANGRY, ANGRY PEOPLE INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER, SHIMON PEREZ, AND MANY OTHERS WHO ARE VERY UPSET THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DOING AS MUCH AS FAR AS THEY KNOW -- AS FAR AS THEY CAN SEE TO BRING THEIR LOVED ONE HOME.

>> I CAN TELL YOU AND ALL THE PEOPLE WATCHING THAT BRINGING THE HOSTAGES HOME IS A PRIMARY GOAL IN OUR MILITARY OPERATION.

ONCE AGAIN THE WAY TO DO THAT, I'D LIKE TO TELL YOU HAMAS BECAME HUMANITARIANS, BUT THEY'RE NOT.

THEY'RE TOUGH BRUTAL TERRORISTS.

WE SAW WHAT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF WHEN THEY BUTCHERED OUR PEOPLE OCTOBER 7th.

WE SEE WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN GAZA, THEY'RE SACRIFICING PALESTINIAN LIVES RIGHT, LEFT AND CENTER FOR THEIR AIMS.

THAT PLEASURE IS BEING APPLIED AND WE BELIEVE, WE KNOW THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO FACILITATE THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES.

AND WHAT OTHER ALTERNATIVE IS THERE?

TO SMILE AT THEM?

>> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SMILING.

THESE ARE REALLY SMART QUESTIONS ABOUT THINGS YOU'VE DONE BEFORE AND THINGS YOUR PEOPLE ARE ASKING YOU.

IN FACT A THOUSAND HOSTAGES ELISED FOR ONE PRISONER.

LET'S MOVE ON BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PRESSURE.

YOU HEARD BECAUSE I PUT QUOTE-UNQUOTE A MATCH UP OF SOME OF YOUR STAUCHEST FRIENDS AND ALLIES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHERE HOPE THERE'S GOING TO BE LESS INTRUSIVE ACTIVITY AROUND THE HOSPITAL.

PRESIDENT MACRON, DE FACTO CIVILIANS ARE BEING KILLED.

THIS IS NOT COMPORTING WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE BUT YOU MUST ALSO OBSERVE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

WHAT DO YOU OF THOSE COMMENTS AND FEELINGS OF YOUR MOST STAUNCH ALLIES?

>> I CAN ONLY EMBRACE WHAT'S BEING SAID.

ISRAEL IS EMBRACING INTERNATIONAL LAW AND WE'RE ACTING TO DEFEND OURSELVES IN A PROPORTIONAL WAY AND ALSO IN A WAY THAT DIFFERENTIATES BETWEEN COMBATANTS, THE HAMAS TERRORISTS AND NONCOMBATANTS, THE CIVILIAN POPULATION WE DON'T WANT TO HURT.

NOW WE'VE GOTTEN GROUND TROOPS MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT'S NOT GOING UP, IT'S GOING DOWN.

HAVING BOOT FORCES ALLOWS US TO BE MAYBE MORE SURGICAL THAN AIR STRIKE.

THAT'S A GOOD THING.

AND WE'RE USING THOSE FORCES TO HIT HAMAS AND HIT HAMAS HARD.

BUT IT HAS TO BE UNDERSTOOD FIRST OF ALL THE NUMBERS COMING OUT OF GAZA CONCERNING CASUALTIES ARE PROVIDED BY HAMAS.

AND SECONDLY THEY GIVE YOU NO DIFFERENTIATION OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FATALITIES WHETHER THEY WERE HAMAS TERRORISTS AND IT'S GOOD IF THEY WERE AND CIVILIANS CAUGHT UP IN THE CROSS FIRE.

NO ONE CAN GIVE YOU AT CNN THAT'S MORE PRECISE.

THE NUMBERS PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE HAMAS NUMBERS.

>> MARK, WHATEVER THE NUMBERS ARE, AND IN HISTORY NOBODY'S QUESTIONED THESE NUMBERS.

IN ALL THE PREVIOUS -- AND HAMAS WAS ALWAYS IN CHARGE.

ALL THE PREVIOUS OPERATIONS, NOBODY QUESTIONED THEIR NUMBERS.

AND WE'VE SEEN HAL OF THESE PEOPLE -- WELL UP TO HALF.

NEARLY 4 PLUS THOUSAND CHILDREN.

>> THAT'S HAMAS' NUMBERS.

WHEN YOU SAY 4,000 CHILDREN, THAT'S WHAT HAMAS SAYS.

>> WE'VE SEEN THE PICTURES.

WE DID THIS LAST WEEK TOGETHER.

WE'VE SEEN THE PICTURES AND IT'S CAUSING HUGE UNREST AND DISQUIET AMONGST YOUR CLOSEST FRIENDS.

WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS THIS.

YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER AND HAS SAID AND YOU SAY PRESUMABLY YOU REALIZE IT WAS WAY TOO MUCH BY AIR.

AND NOW YOU SAY IT'S MORE CONTAINED ASKED MORE DIRECTED ON THE GROUND.

YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER HAS SAID THAT THE -- THE MAIN OBJECTIVE, THE HEAD OF HAMAS MILITARY AND POLITICALLY IN GAZA IS HIDING IN HIS BUNKER.

IF THAT'S THE CASE?

DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE IS?

WHY DON'T YOU GO STRAIGHT AFTER HIM?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, I CAN'T SHARE ANY OFFICIAL CAN MIGHT HAVE.

ALL I CAN SAY IS IT'S CLEAR HAMAS LEADERSHIP WHETHER IN GAZA OR OUTSIDE GAZA IS A TARGET.

ANYONE WHO WAS INVOLVED IN ORCHESTRATING, IN COMMANDING, IN FACILITATING THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE OF OUR PEOPLE IS LEGITIMATE TARGET IN OUR EYES.

JUST LIKE OSAMA BIN LADEN MIGHT NOT HAVE HIMSELF FLOWN AN AIRLINE INTO THE TRADE CENTER.

THE HAMAS LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBLE FOR BUTCHERING OUR PEOPLE WILL BE REACHED AND PUNISHED.

>> I GUESS MY QUESTION WAS IF APPARENTLY YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER KNOWS WHERE HE IS, WHY SHOULDN'T THAT THE TARGET AS OPPOSED TO A MUCH WIDER TARGET?

AND A CONCURRENT QUESTION IS YOU KEEP SAYING THERE'S A HAMAS BUNKER COMMAND CENTER UNDERNEATH.

CAN YOU TELL US HOW AND WHY YOU KNOW THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE PEOPLE OF GAZA CITY KNOWS IT, TOO.

IF IT'S A SECRET IT'S A SECRET EVERYONE KNOWS.

AMERICA HAS CONFIRMED IT, EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE HAS COME OUT AND SAID THEY KNOW FOR A FACT HAMAS USES THE CIVILIAN POPULATION AS A HUMAN SHIELD.

WE SHOWED TO OTHER JOURNALISTS THE UNDERGROUND TUNNEL NETWORK ADJACENT TO THE HOSPITAL.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DOUBT ABOUT THIS ANYMORE INITIAL ONE WANTS TO BELIEVE HAMAS' PROPAGANDA.

>> LISTEN, MARK, I SAW THAT PIECE.

I SAW WHAT YOU SHOWED THE JOURNALIST, AND FROM WHAT WE SAW THERE WERE NO HAMAS PEOPLE THEN -- THEN.

AND THERE WERE NO HUGE STOCKPILES OF WEAPONS THEN.

SO IT RAISES THE QUESTION, WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE?

AND THEREFORE WHY IS THE HOSPITAL STILL A TARGET?

THIS IS HONESTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND.

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE HOSPITAL IS NOT A TARGET.

RIGHT?

IT'S THE HAMAS TERROR SUBTERRANEAN NETWORK OF TUNNELS AND BUNKERS AND ARMS DEPOTS AND LAUNCHING SITES FOR THEIR MISSILES, COMMAND AND CONTROL.

WE HAVE TO DESTROY THAT MILITARY MACHINE OF HAMAS AND WE ARE DESTROYING IT NOW.

WE WILL REACH THE HAMAS LEADERSHIP, AND WE WILL TAKE THEM OUT.

>> SO CAN I JUST ASK YOU A SERIES OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER?

SO YOU'VE SEEN ALL THE REPORTING, AND THERE ARE VERY, VERY GOOD JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE DONE A LOT OF REPORTING, ISRAELI JOURNALISTS, AMERICANS AND OTHERS, AND THEY HAVE REPORTED A SERIES OF WHATEVER YOU MIGHT SAY -- I'M GOING TO JUST SAY MISTAKES BY THE GOVERNMENT IN DEALING WITH HAMAS OVER THE YEARS.

MOST PARTICULARLY I WANT TO ASK YOU, AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW, I'D REALLY LOVE YOU TO GET THE ANSWER FOR ME.

THE REPORT THAT THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE CHIEF, ONE OF THEM VERY SIGNIFICANT PERSONAGE WENT TO THE PRIME MINISTER, WENT TO THE KNESSET WITH CLASSIFIED INFORMATION TALKING ABOUT HOW HE BELIEVED AND THE INTELLIGENCE BELIEVED THAT, YOU KNOW, THE UP ROAR IN YOUR COUNTRY OVER THE ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN THE JUDICIAL SITUATION WAS WEAKENING, THE IMAGE WEAKENING, YOU KNOW, THE MILITARY AND THE INTELLIGENCE IN THE EYES OF THE ENEMY.

AND APPARENTLY THE PRIME MINISTER REFUSED TO SEE THEM.

THEN SEPARATELY GENERAL HELEVI, IF THAT'S HOW I PRONOUNCE HIS NAME, WENT TO SEE THE PRIME MINISTER IN JULY WITH A SIMILAR SET OF CONCERNS AND THE PRIME MINISTER REFUSED TO SEE HIM.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER THAT'S TRUE?

AND IF SO, WHY?

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, ALL THESE QUESTIONS WILL BE DEALT WITH.

>> NO, MARK, THIS IS -- >> IT HAS TO BE SAID THAT ISRAEL IN THE FIRST MONTHS OF THIS YEAR HAD A VERY POLARIZED POLITICS, AND THERE WERE DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THE PRIME MINISTER AND DEMONSTRATIONS FOR THE PRIME MINISTER.

AND SOME PEOPLE SUPPORTED THE JUDICIAL REFORM, AND OTHERS WERE OPPOSED TO IT.

AND WE HAD A VERY, VERY CONTENTIOUS POLITICAL DEBATE IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT WHAT WE SAW OCTOBER 7th AS REPORTED ON CNN IS HAMAS DIDN'T ASK ISRAELIS WHEN THEY KILLED US, WHEN THEY BUTCHERED UZARE WE LEFT WING, RIGHT WING, THEY DON'T CARE.

THERE WAS A REPORT ON CNN BEFORE WE GOT ON THIS BROADCAST ABOUT A PEACE ACTIVIST, A FEMINIST, A WOMAN WHO WAS BUTCHERED BY HAMAS ON THE DAY OF THE ATTACK.

AND I THINK THIS HAS BEEN A WAKE UP CALL FOR ISRAELIS BECAUSE AS MUCH AS WE IN THIS COUNTRY LIKE TO DEBATE POLITICS AND WE PASSIONATELY ARGUE OUR POSITIONS, WHAT IS THE TRUTH, CHRISTIANE?

THE HAMAS KILLERS DON'T CARE ABOUT OUR ARGUMENTS.

THEY OPPOSE ANY PEACE, KNOW NOTIONED SITUATION AND THEY BELIEVE ISRAELIS ARE TARGETS.

WE'VE NOW GOT A NATIONAL UNITY GOVERNMENT, AND WHEN THIS WAR IS WON, THERE'LL BE PLENTO OF TIME TO DISCUSS WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT AND GET BACK TO POLITICS AS USUAL.

BUT THE MOMENT THIS COUNTRY IS UNITED NEVER BEFORE IN DEALING WITH A TIR TARIST THREAT, WE'LL DEFEAT HAMAS, WE'LL END ITS RULE IN GAZA, WE'LL DISMANTLE ITS MILITARY MACHINE.

IT'LL BE GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS, TOO, WHO DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS HAMAS TERROR MACHINE RULED THEM FOR 16 YEARS AND ONLY BROUGHT THEM PAIN, HARDSHIP, AND POVERTY.

>> THAT ALL MAY WE THE CASE.

THE QUESTION, THOUGH, IS, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT ISRAELIS ASKING ABOUT WHETHER THIS GOVERNMENT, AN EMERGENCY GOVERNMENT MORE THAN A UNITY GOVERNMENT FOR ALL THESE YEARS.

NOI, ACCORDING TO POLLS, AND I'M GOING TO TELL YOU WHICH POLL I'M TALKING ABOUT.

CHANNEL 13 SAYS LIKE 76% OF ISRAELI THINK HE SHOULD, YOU KNOW, RETIRE OR RESIGN NOW OR AFTER THE WAR.

SO MY QUESTION IS THIS WAS A REALLY POINTED QUESTION BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT SECURITY.

AND HE REFUSED TO MEET THE SECURITY -- IT DOESN'T MATTER ABOUT THE -- WELL, IT DOES MATTER THE DEMONSTRATIONS.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I WAS ASKING.

WHY DID MR. SECURITY REFUSE TO MEET WITH THE SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE CHIEFS WHO HAD WORRIES ABOUT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HAPPEN?

>> ONCE AGAIN, ALL THESE QUESTIONS CAN BE ADDRESSED AFTER THE CONFLICT.

AND I'D REMIND YOU AND YOU KNOW THIS BETTER THAN MOST THAT WHEN WE'VE HAD SECURITY MISHAPS OR CHALLENGES IN THE PAST WE HAVE KNOWN IN THIS COUNTRY HOW TO INVESTIGATE OURSELVES.

AFTER THE 1973 YOM KIPPUR WAR DEBACLE AT THE BEGINNING WE HAD AN INVESTIGATION LED BY SUPREME COURT JUSTICES AND PEOPLE PAID THE CONSEQUENCES.

IT WAS THE SAME AFTER THE 2006 LEBANON WAR.

THERE WAS AN OFFICIAL COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY.

I'M SURE WHEN THIS IS OVER WE'LL FOLLOW THE SAME PATTERN.

THERE WILL BE INQUIRIES, INVESTIGATIONS, QUESTIONS WILL BE ASKED.

ALL THE PEOPLE FROM THE PRIME MINISTER DOWN IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY WILL HAVE TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.

THAT'S THE WAY IT'S DONE IN A DEMOCRACY.

>> I COULD ASK DO YOU THINK THIS PRIME MINISTER WILL SURVIVE AS OTHERS HAVEN'T?

YOU MENTIONED AFTER THE YOM KIPPUR WAR.

BUT WHAT I WANT TO FINALLY ASK YOU IS THERE IS A REPORT THAT THE AMERICAN DEFENSE SECRETARY, LLOYD AUSTIN, SPOKE TO THE DEFENSE MINISTER, AND ESSENTIALLY -- AND ESSENTIALLY I'M PARAPHRASING, COOL IT ON THE NORTHERN BORDER.

WORRIED THAT OVERPROVOCATION OR OVERACTIVITY BY ISRAEL COULD SPARK SOMETHING WIDER.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT?

>> I CANNOT CONFIRM IT.

AND I CAN TELL YOU WHAT OUR POLICY IS IN THE NORTH.

ISRAEL WANTS TO BE ABLE TO FOCUS ALL OUR MILITARY EFFORTS ON HAMAS IN THE SOUTH, ON DESTROYING THE HAMAS MILITARY MACHINE AND GETTING OUR HOSTAGES BACK.

IN THE NORTH WE PREFER DETERRENCE.

WE DON'T WANT TO SEE AN ESCALATION IN THE NORTH.

UNFORTUNATELY, AS YOU KNOW WE CAN'T BE SURE THAT'S NOT HEZBOLLAH'S INTEREST ON THE COUNTRY.

MAYBE HEZBOLLAH FEELS IT HAS TO COME TO THE AID OF ITS SISTER TERRORIST MOVEMENT.

AND THEREFORE WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED.

AND MY MESSAGE TO HEZBOLLAH WHO MIGHT BE WATCHING US AT THIS MOMENT IS THEY SHOULD BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE IF HAMAS TOOK US BY SURPRISE OCTOBER 7th AND WE PAID A HUGE PRICE IN BLOOD ON OCTOBER 7th FOR NOT BEING READY, WE ARE NOW MOBILIZED.

OUR EYE IS ON THE BALL.

AND IF HEZBOLLAH DECIDES TO START SOMETHING SERIOUS, THEY CAN EXPECT AN OVERWHELMING ISRAELI RESPONSE.

WE WILL RESPOND EXPEDITIOUSLY AND WITH FORCE TO ANY ESCALATION BY HEZBOLLAH.

>> I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT.

I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

YOU ALSO LIKE ALL OF US WATCHED HEZBOLLAH LEAD LAST WEEK WHO BASICALLY SAID THEY DID IT, WE DIDN'T DO IT.

TO ME IT WAS LIKE THIS WAS A HAMAS PROBLEM.

THE QUESTION I WAS ASKING YOU IS IS IT -- CAN YOU CONFIRM THE DEFENSE MINISTER OF THE UNITED STATES WARNED ISRAEL NOT TO BE PROVOCATIVE OR ESCALATORY IN YOUR ATTEMPT TO BE DETERRENT ON THE NORTHERN BORDER?

>> I'VE BEEN IN MEETINGS WITH MY PRIME MINISTER.

I CAN ASSURE YOU OUR POLICY IS VICTORY IN THE SOUTH AND DETERRENCE IN THE NORTH.

BUT ONCE AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HEZBOLLAH IS GOING TO DO.

YOU REFERRED TO HIS SPEECHES.

BUT WE'RE WATCHING NOT WHAT HE SAYS, WE'RE WATCHING WHAT HE DOES.

WE KNOW HE SHARES THAT SAME EXTREME IDEOLOGY LIKE HAMAS.

HE'S A TERRORIST NOT JUST IN ISRAEL'S EYES.

EVEN THE HEZBOLLAH LEAGUE HAS DECLARED HIM A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

HE'S LIKE I SAID BEFORE A TWIN SISTER OF HAMAS IN GAZA.

AND WE'RE WATCHING CLOSELY.

WE'D BE IRRESPONSIBLE TO DO OTHERWISE.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

AND JOINING ME NOW HERE IN THE STUDIO DANIEL LEAVY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.-ISRAEL PROJECT.

HE WORKED UNDER TWO PRIME MINISTERS.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS THE PLAN NOW BUT REALLY FOR POST-WAR.

SO FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF -- OF WHAT WE JUST -- YOU KNOW, THE DISCUSSION WE JUST HAD ABOUT THE HOSTAGES, FOR INSTANCE?

UNCLEAR FROM MARK ABOUT WHETHER THERE IS AS MUCH OPTIMISM AS PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SUGGESTED.

>> WELL, WE HEARD SOMETHING WHICH GAVE ME A TINY BIT OF ENCOURAGEMENT, WHICH IS FROM EVERYTHING WE KNOW, THE KIND OF DEAL THAT'S AVAILABLE NOW TO GET THE HOSTAGES OUT WAS AVAILABLE THREE WEEKS AGO AND PERHAPS SOME OF THE HOSTAGE HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY LOST THEIR LIVES IN THE ISRAELI ATTACKS.

HOWEVER, IF THAT'S THE VICTORY NARRATIVE THAT THE ADVISOR TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER AND BY EXTENSION ISRAEL NEEDS, IF THEY NEED TO SAY DESPITE WHAT WE KNOW IT'S NOT THE CASE.

IF THEY NEED TO SAY THAT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE GROUND INCURSION DO WE NOW HAVE THE ABILITY TO GET THEM OUT -- >> AND THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN, THE PRESSURE.

>> I THINK HE SAID THE INTENSIFICATION OF THE PRESSURE.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS THAT I FOUND INTERESTING.

HE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE -- PRIOR TO THE GROUND INVASION THEY WERE NOT USING SURGICAL STRIKES, WHICH IS OF COURSE SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE SEEN.

I THINK IT'S A SHAME WHEN YOU HEAR THE QUESTION -- THE NUMBERS BEING QUESTIONED.

WE'VE ALL SEEN THE IMAGES.

WE KNOW THAT IN PREVIOUS ROUNDS THE NUMBERS THAT THE HAMAS RUN HEALTH MINISTRY, ISRAEL AND THE U.N. HAVE PUT OUT ARE ALL VERY, VERY CLOSE, ALIGNED PLUS, MINUS 5%.

SO WE RELY ON THE U.N., THE HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES, THE HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS AS WE DO IN UKRAINE AND SYRIA AND ELSEWHERE, AND THEY'RE PRETTY CONFIDENT IN THOSE NUMBERS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, DANIEL, BECAUSE YOU WROTE AN IMPORTANT PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES."

AND YOU LAID OUT A CUP OF THINGS.

ONE, DEFINITELY YOU CALLED FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

BUT PARTLY TO GET HOSTAGES OUT.

TELL US HOW YOU MEAN, AND WHY THAT WOULD WORK OR HOW THAT WOULD WORK IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

>> SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING AT THE MOMENT IS THAT THE POTENTIAL ON-RAMP TO A FULL CEASE-FIRE PROBABLY RUNS VIA A TIME-LIMITED CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES THAT ALLOWS SOME OF THE HOSTAGES TO GET OUT.

PERHAPS THEN LEADING ONTO GETTING A DEAL FOR THE REST TO GET OUT.

I THINK ONCE IT COMES TO THE SOLDIERS BEING HELD BY HAMAS, THAT WILL BE IN A MORE SIGNIFICANT PRISONER EXCHANGE.

AND I THINK WHAT WE ARE PERHAPS MOVING TOWARDS IS THAT THERE WOULD BE I THINK WE'RE NOW TALKING POSSIBLY FIVE DAYS, A FIVE-DAY CESSATION.

GET OUT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THOSE BEING HELD, POSSIBLY HAVE PALESTINIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN BEING HELD IN ISRAELI JAILS, RELEASED IN EXCHANGE.

GET A MUCH BIGGER INFUSION OF HUMANITARIAN AID IN.

BUT THEN TWO THINGS HAPPEN, CHRISTIANE.

AND YOU SHOWED THE MARCH INSIDE ISRAEL TO GET THE HOSTAGES RELEASED, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE DYNAMIC IN THE ISRAELI INTERNAL CONVERSATION.

AND I THINK TWO THINGS HAPPEN IF THAT FIRST PRISONER HOSTAGE RELEASE HAPPENS THE CONVERSATION AND DYNAMIC SHIFTS.

AND YOU HAVE MORE PRESSURE TO GET THE REST OUT.

AND THEN THE CHOICE IS CLEAR IT'S EITHER THE MILITARY MISSION OR IT'S THE PRISONER RELEASE.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT HAPPENS IS THE OUTSIDE PRESSURE, WHICH IS NOW ACCUMULATING, THE WEST IS PLAYING CATCH-UP -- AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE PLAYING CATCH-UP.

THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS THERE MUCH EARLIER BUT IT NEEDS TO END.

THE PRESSURE FROM THE OUTSIDE, ONCE THERE'S A FIVE DAY CESSATION WILL IT BE EASY FOR ISRAEL TO RESUME THE BOMBARDMENT AND KILLING?

>> THE ISRAELI PEOPLE OF COURSE THEY WANT THEIR LOVED ONES BACK, BUT THEY DO WANT TO SEE THE PROSECUTION OF THE WAR AS WELL AND DO WANT TO SEE HAMAS NEUTRALIZED.

YES, AND WE'VE POINTED OUT SOME OF THE UNEASE AMONG SOME OF THE STAUNCHEST ALLIES OF ISRAEL.

EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT IF HAMAS IS DESTROYED, NEUTRALIZED, POLITICALLY, MILITARILY, WHAT THEN?

WE KNOW THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TWICE -- OR THREE TIMES HAS TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO AMERICAN MEDIA.

EACH TIME SORT OF MOVING THE GOAL POSTS ON WHAT ISRAEL WOULD DO AFTERWARDS.

FIRST, IT WAS, YOU KNOW, SECURITY PRESENCE FOR THE FORESEEABLE, THEN IT WAS A MILITARY INENVELOPE THAT WE JUST HEARD THIS WEEKEND.

HOW MUCH APPETITE IS THERE FOR THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK ISRAEL HAS GONE INTO THIS WITHOUT A CLEAR PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER.

AND IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THAT, I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL HAS LARGELY NEGLECTED THE IDEA THAT ONE DOES POLITICS WITH THE PALESTINIANS, ONE DOES SOLUTION ORIENTED APPROACHES.

AND THEREFORE IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT TO GET THAT ANSWER IN ANY KIND OF CLEAR FASHION.

NOW, I THINK THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME IS THAT HAMAS WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST.

ITS MILITARY CAPACITY MAY BE DOWNGRADED.

POLITICALLY IT IS PROBABLY STRONGER THAN BEFORE.

THERE WILL STILL BE A HAMAS.

HOW CONFLICTS END IS WHEN THE PEOPLE OF VIOLENCE EVENTUALLY FIND WAYS OUT OF THAT.

PALESTINIANS ARE IN NO HURRY TO SIT DOWN WITH ISRAEL AFTER THE KILLING OF 4,500 CHILDREN -- >> AFTER THE KILLING OF -- >> THE NUMBERS DON'T MATTER.

IT WAS HORRIFIC.

SO THIS IS THE UNREALISTIC PART.

TO EXPECT THAT A MOVEMENT EMBEDDED IN A PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING WITHOUT FREEDOM OF RIGHTS, THAT THERE WILL NOT BE ARMED RESISTANCE.

HOWEVER, THE OTHER PART OF THIS EQUATION OF COURSE IS WHAT ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY?

WHAT ABOUT OUR BUST?

WHAT ABOUT THE WHOLE OTHER SIDE AND THIS IS WHAT'S MISSING.

>> THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THEM, AND YOU'VE WORKED FOR THE FIRST TO GO INTO THIS SORT OF PEACE PROCESS AND THEN THE LAST PRACTICALLY OF A BIG DEAL BY THE PALESTINIANS.

THE UNITED STATES ARE CALLED FOR REVITALIZED P.A., PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, TO BE THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP NOT JUST ON THE WEST BANK BUT ALSO IN GAZA.

ABAS IS THE HEAD OF THE P. A.

HE'S NOT A POPULAR FIGURE AT HOME OR CERTAINLY WITH THIS CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

NO ELECTIONS.

HOW DO YOU SEE PALESTINIANS ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO TAKE OVER POLITICALLY IN A PLACE LIKE GAZA?

WHAT DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU SEE THE QUESTION OF MILITARIZATION OR DEMILITARIZATION WORKING?

IS THERE SOME KIND OF INTERIM INTERNATIONAL MANDATE TO KEEP SECURITY WHAT?

>> SO IN MANY RESPECTS IT'S THE CONTINUATION OF THE HAMAS QUESTION.

WHY IS IT THAT HAMAS HAS GROWN STRONGER AND WHY IS IT THAT ABAS HAS LOST CREDIBILITY, LEGITIMACY WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE AND THE ANSWER IS THEY SAID NO ARMED RESISTANCE, POLITICAL NEGOTIATION, AND THAT WILL DELIVER US -- >> AND RECOGNIZING ISRAEL'S -- >> RECOGNIZING ISRAEL.

FAST FORWARD WHERE ARE WE?

450% INCREASE IN ILLEGAL ISRAELI SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK.

AN ENTRENCHED OCCUPATION, A SYSTEM OF STRUCTURAL VIOLENCE METED OUT AGAINST PALESTINIANS EVERY DAY.

SO THE WEST BANK IS WORSE FOR PALESTINIANS TO LIVE IN THAN PREVIOUSLY AND THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT.

BRINGING THEM IN ON AN ISRAELI TANK AFTER TOTAL DESTRUCTION IN GAZA IS NOT REALISTIC.

THE PALESTINIANS WILL HAVE TO REBUILD -- >> WHAT'S REALISTIC?

WHAT IS IT?

>> I'M AFRAID THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MIGHT BE REALISTIC IS PLACING THIS IN A BROADER APPROACH TO INVOLVE THE ACTUAL PROBLEM OF PALESTINIAN DISPOSITION AND STATELESSNESS AND RIGHTS.

>> WHO DOES THE PALESTINIAN GUARDIANSHIP OF GAZA AND WEST BANK?

>> I'M SURE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE VOLUNTEERS FOR THAT.

I THINK IT MAY WELL BE THE HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.

ISRAEL IS APPARENTLY NOT WILLING TO BRA WITHDRAW.

I DON'T THINK IT'D BE WISE TO SAY WE'LL DO.

THE SECURITY DOES THE COOPERATION WITH ISRAEL BUT IT DOESN'T GET ANY POLITICAL PROGRESS.

AND THEREFORE THAT SECURITY COOPERATION IS HATED AND BAD FOR POLITICS AND BAD FOR ISRAEL AS WELL.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE SETTLEMENTS AND THE SETTLER.

AS WE KNOW THE SETTLERS ARE A MAJOR PART OF THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY THEY PRETTY MUCH RUN THE IDEOLOGY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

AND WE'VE SEEN THE SETTLER VIOLENCE NOW SINCE OCTOBER 7th ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, BUT WE ALSO HAVE HEARD THAT CERTAIN SETTLER LEADERS HAVE SAID -- YOU TALKED ABOUT THE P.A., YOU KNOW, DOING THEIR BEST FOR SECURITY THERE, BUT TRYING TO STOP THE FUNDS FOR THAT.

AND EVEN THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER SAYING DON'T DO THAT, WE NEED THE P.A.

TO KEEP HELPING US WITH SECURITY.

HOW BAD IS THAT?

AND ARE THOSE FUNDS, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE STILL SUSPENDED?

>> SOME OF THEM ARE GOING THROUGH.

THEY CAN'T PAY ALL THE SALARIES.

I THINK WE'VE DONE A DISSERVICE TO OUR OWN SERIOUSNESS AND OUR OWN ABILITY TO CHART A COURSE FORWARD BY NOT TAKING SERIOUSLY WHAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN TELLING US.

THEY HAVE A GOVERNMENT WITH MINISTERS WHO MAKE NO BONES IT'S NOT SOMEONE ACCUSING THEM OF BEING AN APARTIDE STATE.

THEY WEAR THAT BADGE WITH PRIDE.

THEY'VE OPENLY ADMITTED TO ETHNIC CLEANSE.

HE HASN'T BEEN FIRED AS A MINISTER.

IN THIS COUNTRY SOMEONE DID SOMETHING STUPID HE WAS FIRED AS A MINISTER, AT LEAST THAT.

HOWEVER, WE HAVEN'T TAKEN THEM SERIOUSLY, AND IT'S TIME WE DID TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY BECAUSE WHAT HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN, IT'S THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG WITH THE SETTLERS FOR FOUR YEARS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE A U.S. VIEW INTO THIS.

YOU'RE HEAD OF THE U.S. MIDDLE EAST PROJECT HERE.

YOU SEE THAT BIDEN IS BEGINNING TO SHIFT HIS PUBLIC STANCE.

YOU'VE SEEN THAT DEFINITELY TODAY THERE'S A BIG PRO-ISRAEL MARCH IN WASHINGTON BUT EVEN WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT THERE'S A DISSENT CHANNEL AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

SOME 400 FOREIGN SERVICE AND OTHERS HAVE WRITTEN, YOU KNOW, A LETTER QUESTIONING AND EXPRESSING THEIR DISQUIET WITH BIDEN'S CLOSENESS TO THIS OPERATION, THE MILITARY OPERATION.

WHERE DOES THE U.S.

STAND IN THIS?

AND WE KNOW THE U.S.

WANTED TO ESSENTIALLY PIVOT AWAY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AND PIVOT TOWARDS CHINA.

WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THE UNITED STATES IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO HAVE SOME REALLY SERIOUS INFLUENCE OVER A REALLY SERIOUS POST-WAR POLITICAL PROCESS.

>> I THINK THE U.S. HAS THAT INFLUENCE.

I THINK IT'S A PROBLEM THAT HAVING BEEN GIVEN A WARNING REMEMBER IN MAY 2021 WE HAD A SERIOUS ESCALATION.

THAT'S THIS ADMINISTRATION.

BUT THEY DECIDED -- THEY PROBABLY THOUGHT, OH, GOOD, WE'VE HAD OUR MINI FLARE UP, WE SHOULD BE GOOD THROUGH NOVEMBER 24.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

THEY PARKED THE QUESTION.

THEY CONTINUED NOT BEING SERIOUS.

THEY WERE BUSY WITH AN ALPHABET SOUP OF NORMALIZATION AND I2U 2, ISRAEL, USA, CORRIDORS WITH ISRAEL.

THEY THOUGHT THIS WAS THE WAY FORWARD.

NOW WE ARE WHERE WE ARE.

I WISH THE DEATH TOLL HAD BUDGED BIDEN.

IT SEEMS THE OPINION POLLS ARE WHAT BUDGED BIDEN.

BUT NOW I THINK IN PRIVATE THEY ARE SCARED OF THE REGIONAL ESCALATION.

THEY SEE THIS ISN'T WORKING WELL FOR THEM.

THEY SEE THEY'RE LOSING HUGE CREDIBILITY IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

THEY WANT TO END IT, BUT IF THERE'S TOO MUCH OF A GAP BETWEEN WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IPPUBLIC AND PRIVATE, THE ISRAELIS NOW HAVE TO PLAY WITH THAT.

>> DANIEL LEVY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> NEXT WE TURN TO THE HISTORIC FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

FOUNDED IN 1966 THE NATIONAL FOUNDATION FOR WOMEN, ALSO KNOWN AS N.O.W., LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR CHALLENGING DISCRIMINATION THERE.

IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE WOMEN OF NOW," HISTORIAN CATHERINE TURR DETAILS THE TUMULTUOUS JOURNEY OF ESTABLISHING THE LARGEST FEMININE ORGANIZATION.

AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW LESSONS FROM THE PAST CAN INFORM TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> YOU SPENT TWO DECADES NOW RESEARCHING THE HISTORY OF THE WOMEN'S RIGHT MOVEMENT, IN PARTICULAR THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN.

I'M GUESSING A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HEARD OF N.O.W.

BUT DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR.

WHAT IS N.O.W.?

WHAT WAS N.O.W.

SUPPOSED TO BE?

>> YEAH, SO N.O.W.

WAS FOUNDED IN 1966 BY A GROUP OF SEVERAL DOZEN WOMEN AND THEN SEVERAL DOZEN MORE WOMEN AND MEN WHO JOINED THEM TO FORM WHAT TAY CALLED A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO SPEAK FOR WOMEN.

THIS WAS A MOMENT WHEN THE LABOR MOVEMENT WAS QUITE STRONG.

THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS QUITE STRONG, AND WOMEN, OF COURSE, WERE PART OF THOSE MOVEMENTS.

BUT THEY ALSO LOOKED AROUND AND SAW THAT MOVEMENTS AROUND GROUP-BASED SOLIDARITY WERE GETTING A LOT DONE IN AMERICAN LIFE.

SO A LOT OF WOMEN FELT THERE WAS A KIND OF CONTRAST ABOUT THE OPTIMISM ABOUT THE AMERICAN DREAM AND THE HOPEFULNESS ABOUT THE POWER OF DEMOCRACY AND ALL THE THINGS AMERICA OFFERS TO THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

AND CONTRAST THAT TO WHAT THEY LIVED AND EXPERIENCED IN THEIR OWN LIVES.

THAT'S SORT OF BASIC PREMISE OF NOW TO ORGANIZE ON BEHALF OF ALL WOMEN, THEY WERE ESPECIALLY FOCUSED ON LEGAL CHANGE, BOTH GETTING NEW LAWS ENFORCED STRONGLY BUT THEN ALSO PUSHING FOR NEW LEGAL PROTECTIONS.

BUT WITHIN JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AFTER N.O.W.

'S FOUNDING, THE ORGANIZATION BECAME A MASS MOVEMENT DEDICATED TO DOZENS AND DOZENS OF GOALS, PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING ANYBODY COULD THINK OF.

>>O IT'S KIND OF LIKE AN NAACP FOR WOMEN.

INSTEAD OF FOCUS ON A PARTICULAR CONCEPT, THEY WANTED IT TO BE FOR ALL WOMEN.

WHICH IS KIND OF A TOUGH GOAL WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

I GUESS WAS THAT A STRUGGLE AT THE BEGINNING?

WAS IT SORT OF OBVIOUS AT THE BEGINNING IT WAS HARD TO GET EVERYONE ON THE SAME PAGE AS IT WERE?

WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT HALF THE POPULATION SO -- >> YES, TO SAY THE LEAST.

THE KIND OF OPTIMISM THAT N.O.W.

'S FOUNDERS FELT AND THE KIND OF DETERMINATION, IT'S A GOOD THING THEY HAD IT BECAUSE IT CONVINCE THEM TO BEGIN THIS ORGANIZATION.

BUT VERY QUICKLY THERE WERE INTERNAL STRUGGLES.

THERE WERE FIGHTS AROUND WHICH ISSUES THEY SHOULD PRIORITIZE, CONCERNS WHICH WOMEN SHOULD BE PRIORITIZED.

AND THIS WAS AN ONGOING CONVERSATION THAT LASTS UP UNTIL THIS DAY ABOUT WHO CAN SPEAK FOR WOMEN AND WHAT DO WOMEN ON THE WHOLE NEED?

>> COULD CROW SET THE TABLE FOR US?

WHAT WAS THE LEGAL LANDSCAPE FOR WOMEN AT THE TIME THAT N.O.W.

WAS FORMED?

>> WOMEN WERE SOLIDLY SECOND CLASS CITIZENS IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN N.O.W.

WAS FORMED.

ABORTION WAS ILLEGAL PRETTY MUCH EVERYWHERE.

WOMEN COULD GENERALLY NOT GET CREDIT CARDS IN THEIR OWN NAME, GET MORTGAGES UNTIL THE MID-1960s WOMEN COULD BE EXEMPTED FROM JURY DUTY.

THE IDEA BEING THAT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO GO THROUGH WITH JURY DUTY WHEN YOU REALLY NEEDED TO BE AT HOME WITH YOUR CHILDREN.

WOMEN COULD RECEIVE HARSHER PENALTIES FOR THE SAME CRIMES.

A HUSBAND WHO HAD A TRAFFIC ACCIDENT COULD FIND THAT HIS WIFE'S DRIVER'S LICENSE WAS ALSO TAKEN AWAY.

WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION AND SEXISM WAS NOT ONLY PERMITTED AND PERVASIVE, IT WAS ACTUALLY CODIFIED IN THE LAW IN THE FORM OF STATE LAWS -- ALL 50 STATES HAD DIFFERENT LAWS THAT REQUIRED EMPLOYERS TO TREAT WOMEN DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE OF SEX.

AND THERE'S PLENTY TO SAY, TOO ABOUT THE CULTURE MISOGYNY THAT WAS JUST EVERYWHERE IN AMERICAN LIFE AND WAS ALSO JUST SO COMMON -- COMMON JOKE FOR MEN IN POWER TO MAKE.

AND I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT FOR WOMEN OF COLOR, WOMEN WHO WERE QUEER, WOMEN OLDER, WORKING CLASS, THOSE WOMEN EXPERIENCED ALL OF THESE INJUSTICES AND MORE.

I THINK THAT BACKDROP REALLY GIVES A SENSE FOR WHY THIS DIVERSE GROUP OF WOMEN WHO CAME TOGETHER AS A SEX TO FOUND N.O.W.

BELIEVED SUCH ORGANIZING WAS URGENT.

>> IT STARTED OUT AS BEING REALLY BIG, REALLY BROAD.

WE WANT TO DO, YOU KNOW, ALL THE THINGS.

WE WANT TO FOCUS ON THINGS FROM A NUMBER OF FRONTS.

BUT AT SOME POINT THEY KIND OF NARROWED THEIR FOCUS TO THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT.

AND WHY IS THAT?

AND WHY WAS THAT SUCH A CONSEQUENTIAL DECISION?

>> N.O.W.

WAS A BIG UMBRELLA, A BIG COALITION FOR THE FIRST DECADE OR SO OF ITS LIFE.

BUT BY THE MID-1970s A COUPLE OF THINGS HAD HAPPENED IN AMERICAN LIFE THAT N.O.W.

'S FOUNDERS DID NOT ANTICIPATE.

THE LEGAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT WHICH HAD BEEN ONE OF DOZENS OF N.O.W.

'S GOALS AND HAD A LOT OF MOMENTUM IN THE EARLY 1970s AND PASSED BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AND WON IN AB INOF STATES REALLY QUICKLY.

BUT THEN IT STARTED TO LOSE MOMENTUM.

AND THE SECOND THING I WOULD POINT TO WAS THE ROE v. WADE OPINION OF 1973, WHICH OF COURSE FOR A TIME ESTABLISHED A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO ABORTION.

AND BOTH OF THOSE THINGS, THE ERAs MOMENTUM AND ROE v. WADE HELPED TODAY GALVANIZE A RENEWED MOVEMENT OF CONSERVATIVE WOMEN WHO ORGANIZED EXPLICITLY AGAINST N.O.W.

SORT OF TOOK N.O.W.

'S ORGANIZING STYLE OF A NATIONALLY FEDERATED GROUP BUT TURNED N.O.W.

'S PREMISE ON ITS HEAD ARGUING EQUALITY AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS WOULD HURT WOMEN, WOULD NOT HELP THEM.

NOW LEADERS IN THE 1970s REALLY FELT THEMSELVES TO BE AT A CROSSROADS.

THEY COULD EITHER LET THE ERA GO, LET IT EXPIRE WITHOUT DOING MUCH MORE AROUND IT, OR THEY COULD REALLY FOCUS THEIR RESOURCES AND TRY TO GET A LOT MORE TO TRY TO PUSH THIS AMENDMENT OVER THE FINISH LINE AND GET IT WRITTEN INTO THE LAW.

SO THAT LATTER CHOICE IS WHAT THEY DID.

THEY BEGAN ENGAGING IN NEW FUND-RAISING METHODS.

THEY BEGAN TO STREAMLINE THE ORGANIZATION AND CONCENTRATE POWER AT THE TOP IN A NEW HEADQUARTERS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND BECAME A QUITE EFFECTIVE LOBBYING AND FUND-RAISING MACHINE.

>> I HAVE TO SAY THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING THINGS ABOUT YOUR RESEARCH.

JUST SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, AS I SAID IT WAS ONE OF THOSE STORIES THAT'S HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT.

ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK AND IN AN EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK THAT MANY PEOPLE MAY HAVE SEEN IN THE LAENTDIC IS THAT EVENTUALLY THEY EARNED MONEY THROUGH A SURPRISING DONATION STRATEGY, SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ASSOCIATE WITH THE POLITICAL RIGHT, BUT WHICH NOW USED VERY EFFECTIVELY.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

AND HOW DID IT PROVE SO CONSEQUENTIAL?

>> STARTING IN THE 1960s THE VERY RIGHT OF THE FRINGE OF AMERICAN POLITIC WERE FRUSTRATED WITH BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES AND FRUSTRATE WOULD THE STATUS QUO.

SO THEY DEVELOPED A NEW STRATEGY FOR REACHING CONSERVATIVES IN THEIR HOMES AND RAISING MONEY FROM THEM CALLED DIRECT MAIL.

AND DIRECT MAIL INITIALLY -- NOW IT'S E-MAILS, BUT IT STARTED OUT AS LETTERS, PERSONALIZED LETTERS THAT WERE TAILORED TO DONORS AND SUPPORTERS OF CONSERVATIVE CAUSES.

AND DIRECT MAIL LETTERS ARE WRITTEN WITH A VERY SPECIFIC PURPOSE IN MIND, TYPICALLY DESIGNED TO OUTRAGE OR ANGER OR AT LEAST MOTIVATE SOME ACTION ON BEHALF OF -- BY AN INDIVIDUAL RECIPIENT OF THAT LETTER WHO WILL ALREADY BE SYMPATHETIC TO THAT CAUSE.

AND SO IT WAS THE RIGHT THAT WAS USING DIRECT MAIL QUITE EFFECTIVELY BY THE LATE '60s AND EARLY 1970s.

AND A NUMBER OF GROUPS ON THE POLITICAL LEFT SAW THIS AND DECIDED TO -- TO FIRST DIP A TOE IN AND THEN DIVE ALL THE WAY IN TO DIRECT MAIL.

SO THEY STARTED PUTTING TOGETHER LISTS OF MEMBERS OF LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE ORGANIZATIONS AND MERGING THOSE LISTS AND SORTING THOSE VOTERS INTO FOLKS WHO WOULD BE MOST SYMPATHETIC TO CERTAIN KINDS OF APPEALS.

AND SO ORGANIZATIONS ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT START BRINGING IN MUCH MORE MONEY ACROSS THE 1970s USING DIRECT MAIL.

>> SO YOU WRITE THE DIRECT MAIL NEGOTIATION SOLICITING STRATEGY BALLOONED POWER BUT NARROWED UNDERMINING THE INFLUENCE AND INVOLVEMENT OF ORDINARY MEMBERS.

SO WHAT MAKES YOU SO CONVINCE IT WAS THIS KIND OF PIVOT TOOT THE FUND-RAISING STRATEGY THAT WAS SO -- THAT WAS SO POWERFUL IN CHANGING THE SHAPE OF THE ORGANIZATION?

>> SURE.

WELL, N.O.W.

CONTINUES TO GAIN MEMBERS ACROSS THE 1970s THROUGH DIRECT MAIL.

SO USING DIRECT MAIL BOTH FOR FUND-RAISING AND JUST REACHING OUT TO SYMPATHETIC FOLKS, N.O.W.

GETS MUCH, MUCH BIGGER.

AND IT BECOMES ASSOCIATE WOULD THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT IN BOTH ITS MEMBERS MINDS BUT ALSO IN THE MIND OF THE BROADER PUBLIC, N.O.W.

BECOMES MUCH MORE PROMINENT ON THE NATIONAL SCENE.

AND MY BOOK SHOWS HOW THE AFTER THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT EXPIRED IN 1982 IT'S IN THIS PARADOXAL POSITION IT HAS A LOT OF PROMINENCE AND RESOURCES TO GET MORE.

BUT IT'S NOT SURE WHAT ITS IDENTITY IS.

IF IT'S NOT THE ERA ANYMORE WHAT IS THE ORGANIZATION AND WHAT CAN IT DO?

CERTAINLY A SOCIOLOGIST HAS WRITTEN BRILLIANTLY ABOUT HOW MANY MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATIONS LOST MEMBERS PEOPLE ACROSS THE 1970 FOR THE REASONS YOU DESCRIBED AND OTHERS, TOO, FOR THE WEAKENING OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT, A KIND OF MORE INDIVIDUALISTIC CULTURE.

BUT THROUGH THE 1970s N.O.W.

ACTUALLY BUCKS THAT TREND AND GAINS MEMBERS.

DIRECT MAIL, A KIND OF TACTIC THAT'S ESPECIALLY SUITED FOR ONE GOAL, ONE VISION, ONE OBJECTIVE, DIRECT MAIL WAS ACTUALLY QUITE EFFECTIVE FOR N.O.W.

IN HELPING IT TO GROW.

IT'S JUST THE NATURE OF MEMBERSHIP CHANGED.

SUDDENLY WITH DIRECT MAIL YOU COULD -- YOU WOULD RECEIVE A LETTER FROM THE NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS AS OPPOSED TO SEEKING OUT YOUR LOCAL CHAPTER.

AND THEN YOU WOULD PERHAPS GIVE SOME MONEY, PERHAPS SIGN UP AS A MEMBER, BUT THAT MIGHT BE THE ONLY CONTACT YOU HAVE WITH THE ORGANIZATION UNTIL IT'S TIME TO RENEW YOUR MEMBERSHIP THE FOLLOWING YEAR.

SO IT'S JUST A WHOLE DIFFERENT MODEL OF BELONGING AND OF BEING PART OF AN ORGANIZATION.

>> DO YOU SEE A PARALLEL TO THE CURRENT MOMENT THAT SOMEHOW THERE SEEMS LIKE AN INVERSE PROPORTION BETWEEN HOW MUCH MONEY YOU CAN RAISE AND HOW QUICKLY AND HOW EFFECTIVE YOU CAN BE AS AN ORGANIZATION?

>> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

AND YOU CAN ALSO LOOK TO ALL THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING TOWARDS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND ABORTION RIGHTS.

RIGHT, THE DOBBS OPINION CAME DOWN DESPITE THOSE ORGANIZATIONS HAVING RAISED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND, YOU KNOW, MOBILIZED SUPPORTERS TO GIVE THAT MONEY.

SO, YES, I THINK N.O.W.

'S STORY CAN HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT WE LOSE WHEN THE GRASS ROOTS IS NO LONGER IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT.

SO THERE ARE FOLKS IN EVERY COMMUNITY ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY WHO WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT WORKPLACE VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS AND WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT OUR ABORTION RIGHTS, BUT THE NATIONAL LANDSCAPE AT LEAST OF THESE D.C. BASED ORGANIZATIONS, WHAT THEY'RE OFFERING PEOPLE IS -- IS OFTENTIMES A WAY TO GIVE MONEY, A WAY TO SIGN UP AS A MEMBER, PERHAPS SIGN A PETITION, OPEN MESSAGES.

BUT WHAT'S MISSING FROM -- FROM THE RESEARCH I'VE DONE ON N.O.W.

IN ITS MOST PRODUCTIVE YEARS IN THE EARLY '70s IS A WAY TO DO SOMETHING, A WAY TO ORGANIZE IN YOUR COMMUNITY AROUND THOSE ISSUES IN A LOCAL SENSE, IN A WAY THAT MATTERS TO YOU AND TO THE PEOPLE WHERE YOU LIVE BUT CAN ALSO BE NATIONALLY COORDINATED.

SO THE BOOK TALKS ABOUT HOW N.O.W.

IN THE EARLY '70s IN ITS FIRST DECADE OR SO WAS REALLY ONLY LOOSELY COORDINATED FROM THE TOP, AND IT WAS LOCAL MEMBERS WHO WERE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT NOT ONLY SIGNING PETITIONS AND, YOU KNOW, PAYING THOSE MEMBERSHIP DUES BUT ACTUALLY DRIVING THE MOVEMENT'S AGENDA.

AND WHAT'S LOST WHEN IT'S A MORE TOP-DOWN MODEL IS PEOPLE'S SENSE OF OWNERSHIP.

NOT ONLY BELONGING BUT REALLY BEING ABLE TO SHAPE THE AGENDA OF A MOVEMENT THAT IS ALSO THEIRS.

>> ONCE PEOPLE HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM SOMETHING CAN YOU REALLY GO BACK TO IT?

>> I THINK YOU CAN.

I THINK YOU COULD.

I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO DEFINE WOMEN EXPANSIVELY TO INCLUDE NOT ONLY SELF-IDENTIFYING WOMEN BUT GENDER NONBINARY PEOPLE AND OF COURSE ALL OF THEIR ALLIES AS N.O.W.

DID.

BUT I THINK THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF POWER IN THAT KIND OF ORGANIZING.

THERE'S POWER IN SOLIDARITY, POWER IN COALITION.

AND WHEN N.O.W.

WAS FOUNDED, THERE WAS NOT THIS MASS MOVEMENT OF CONSERVATIVE WOMEN THAT WE HAVE NOW.

SO AN ORGANIZATION LIKE THAT WOULD HAVE TO PERHAPS REACH OUT TO THOSE FOLKS TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY COULD, BUT MIGHT ALSO HAVE TO BE OKAY WITH LEAVING THEM BEHIND IN FORGING AN AGENDA THAT IS BROADLY CONCEIVED AS -- AS BENEFICIAL TO WOMEN.

BUT I THINK YOU COULD GET A LOT DONE.

>> I THINK THAT SOME CONSERVATIVES WOULD ARGUE THAT THE REASON WHY AN ORGANIZATION LIKE N.O.W.

FELL FROM PROMINENCE IS THAT PEOPLE JUST DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

OKAY?

THEY ALWAYS HAD ORGANIZED RESISTANCE FROM CERTAIN, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVE GROUPS, CONSERVATIVE WOMEN'S GROUPS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AGREE WITH THEM.

THEY'D ARGUE THAT THE REASON WHY THAT GROUPS LIKE OCCUPY WALL STREET AND BLACK LIVES MATTER HAVE NOT ACHIEVED THE OBJECTIVES THEY DESIRE IS BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> AS WE WERE SAYING BEFORE THE NOTION OF AN ORGANIZATION THAT CAN SPEAK FOR 51% OF THE POPULATION PLUS MALE ALLIES, THAT'S A WILDLY AMBITIOUS EVEN OUTLANDISH GOAL, RIGHT?

WOMEN ARE AS DIVERSE AS THE NATION ITSELF, BUT PURSUING THE GOAL ITSELF REALLY MATTERS.

THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT IN THE 1970s LIKE TODAY WAS BROADLY SUPPORTED.

I THINK IT'S BEEN LIKE 80% OF AMERICANS SUPPORTED THE ERA BY THE LATE '70s AND SUPPORT IT TODAY.

SO THIS KIND OF EXPANSIVE ORGANIZING CAN NEVER CAPTURE EVERYONE.

OF COURSE, HOW COULD A NATION AS DIVERSE AS OURS POSSIBLY HOST ORGANIZATIONS THAT CAN SPEAK FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON, RIGHT?

OR OWN POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS WHICH ARE SUPPOSED TO SPEAK FOR ALL OF US ARE IN DISREPAIR AND BUT THE EFFORT STILL MATTERS.

THE EFFORT TO CRACK AND STRETCH IT AS FAR AS YOU CAN AND KEEP A BROAD COALITION OF DIVERSE PEOPLE TOGETHER IN PURSUIT OF CHANGE CAN ACCOMPLISH PREVIOUSLY UNIMAGINABLE RESULTS.

AND YOU CAN LOOK TO N.O.W.

'S HISTORY FOR JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT.

>> IT JUST SEEMS INTERESTING THAT YOUR BOOK ARRIVES AT A TIME WHEN ONE OF THOSE ANIMATING DECISIONS HAS NOW BEEN REVERSED, AND THE LANDSCAPE IS VERY DIFFERENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I MEAN THE ACCESS TO ABORTION RIGHTS IS WILDLY DIFFERENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN A WAY THAT WAS THE CASE 50 YEARS AGO.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS WHAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEWED HAD TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

WHAT DO THEY THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, SO UPSET AND PERHAPS NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS CONSERVATIVE BACKLASH TO GROUPS LIKE N.O.W.

FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS.

BUT CERTAINLY THEY SHARED A SENSE THAT WHEN THEY WON THESE LANDMARKS ON BEHALF OF WOMEN, ON BEHALF OF FEMINISM, THEY HAD THOUGHT IT WOULD BE PERMANENT, AND THAT IT'S FRUSTRATING TO FEEL THAT BENEFIT AND GAINS THEIR GENERATION SECURED ARE NOW BEING UNDONE.

YOU MENTIONED I'M A SCALLER AND A RESEARCHER AND A WRITER, BUT I'M ALSO A TEACHER.

I TEACH WOMEN'S HISTORY, I TEACH FEMINIST HISTORY.

AND ONE OF THE POINTS I ALWAYS MAKE AGAIN AND AGAIN IN A SEMESTER IS THAT THE WOMEN WHO BUILT THIS MOVEMENT ARE JUST LIKE YOU, WOMEN AND MEN I SHOULD SAY.

THE WOMEN WEREN'T PREORDAINED TO BE THE LEADERS OF A MOVEMENT.

AND THE MOVEMENT WAS NOT BUILT OR POWERED BY FAMOUS INDIVIDUALS, INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE HOUSEHOLD NAMES.

IT WORKED BECAUSE MILLIONS OF ORDINARY PEOPLE DECIDED TO COME TOGETHER IN THEIR COMMUNITIES AND BE IN SOLIDARITY AND ADVOCATE FOR CHANGES THAT WOULD MEAN SOMETHING TO THEM AND OTHER PEOPLE IN THEIR LIVES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT CAN POSSIBLY COUNTERACT DARK MONEY AND GERRYMANDERING AND OUT OF CONTROL CAPITALISM, THE ANSWER IS PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE, MASSES OF PEOPLE.

AND WE'VE SEEN THIS -- I KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN AS A HISTORIAN BECAUSE AMERICAN HISTORY IS FULL OF EXAMPLES OF EXACTLY THIS KIND OF DYNAMIC.

WHILE FOR MANY FEMINISTS THIS IS FRUSTRATING TIME, THERE'S ALSO A LOT WE CAN DRAW ON FROM OUR PAST, EVEN OUR MOST RECENT PAST TO HELP US CHART A WAY FORWARD.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

IT WAS A PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A SAFE HAVEN FOR THE ENDANGERED SPERM WHALE, WHICH IS THREATENED BY LOOSE FISHING NETS AND MOVING BOATS.

A NEW MARINE RESERVE OFF THE COAST OF THE CARIBBEAN ISLAND OF DOMINCA HAS CREATED AROUND 300 SQUARE MILES OF SAFE, CRYSTAL WATER.

THIS BEAUTIFUL DIAGRAM IS OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO SHOW US THAT.

AND THIS SUCCESSFUL MARINE CONSERVATION IS MATCHED BY MIRACULOUS EFFORTS TO KEEP THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AT BAY IN THE AMERICAN CITY OF BUFFALO AND THAT IS DESPITE RISING TEMPERATURES.

CORRESPONDENT BILL WEIR BRINGS US THIS CLIMATE REFUGE.

>> THERE'S AN OLD JOKE THAT SAYS THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEASONS IN BUFFALO, WINTER AND THE FOURTH OF JULY.

IN THE AGE OF WARMING THE CITY WANTS TO KNOW NOW THEY'RE GOING FROM PUNCH LINE TO LIFELINE.

THANKS TO ITS GOLDILOCKS LOCATION AMID THE GREAT LAKES, BUFFALO HAS NEVER REACHED 100 DEGREES.

>> THREE DAYS IN THE SUMMER YOU GET TO BE 90 DEGREES OR HIGHER.

IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT PHOENIX WHAT THE HECK YOU'RE CALLING THAT A HEAT WAVE.

>> AND WHEN THE PROFESSOR DID A DEEP DIVE OF THE RECORDS THE BUFFALO STATE CLIMATOLOGIST WAS SHOCKED TO FIND NO INCREASE IN DROUGHTS OR FLOODS.

THERE WAS THIS EPIC SNOWSTORM LAST WINTER, REALLY DEADLY AND DESTRUCTIVE.

>> THE BLIZZARD OF '22.

>> I'M NOT SAYING OUR SEVERE WEATHER IS GOING TO DISAPPEAR.

IT'S STILL THERE.

IN FACT, SNOW AMOUNTS HAVE REMAINED STEADY IN ALL THIS.

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE GETTING WORSE, AND THAT'S THE KEY HERE.

WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE SEVERE WEATHER LIKE THE WIND AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO GET WORSE.

>> I'VE GOT TO SAY IT'S PRETTY IRONIC AND TELLING ABOUT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, THAT A PLACE SORT OF ASSOCIATED WITH COLD JOKES, SUPER BOWL LOSSES COULD BE A HUGE WINNER RELATIVE ON A HOTTER PLANET.

>> THAT'S THE WAY WE LOOK AT IT AS WELL.

THERE WAS A PROFESSOR FROM HARVARD THAT WAS TALKING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND LISTED SOME CITIES THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED CLIMATE REFUGES IN THE FUTURE.

AND BUFFALO WAS ONE OF THE CITIES ON THE LIST, AND SO WE JUST LEANED INTO IT.

WE ARE GOING TO NOT ONLY CALL OURSELVES A CLIMATE REFUGE CITY BUT DO THE KIND OF THINGS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO BE WELCOMING WITH MIGRATION, WITH NEW AMERICANS COMING HERE, WITH SEEING THE FIRST POPULATION GROWTH IN THE CITY SINCE THE 1950 CENSUS.

>> AFTER HURRICANE MARIA, 3,000 PUERTO RICANS BECAME PERMANENT BUFFALONIANS.

>> WHEN HURRICANE START WE MOVE FROM THE FIRST FLOOR TO THE SECOND FLOOR.

>> INCLUDING ANTHONY WHO'S NOW A TEACHERS ASSISTANT.

>> YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING?

BECAUSE IN PUERTO RICO IT'S ALWAYS WARM.

IT'S HOT.

AND I SAY NO.

I MOVE HERE LIKE IN WINTER, BUT I LIKE IT.

IT'S GOOD.

>> DID YOU CONSIDER OTHER SPOTS, OR WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS PLACE THAT APPEALED TO YOU THE MOST?

>> THE GREAT LAKES, THE FRESH-WATER, THE PROJECTIONS OF CLIMATE CHANGE LOOK LIKE BUFFALO MIGHT HAVE A CLIMATE MORE LIKE NEW YORK, PHILADELPHIA TOWARDS THE END OF THE CENTURY.

>> WILDFIRE SMOKE HELPED DRIVE HOLLY JEAN BUCK AND HER FAMILY OUT OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

AND AS A CLIMATE SCIENTIST, SHE SAYS SHE WAS WELCOMED ARMS.

>> REALLY THE ENERGY OF THE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FORWARD THINKING IN WESTERN NEW YORK AND NEW YORK STATE ABOUT WHAT OPPORTUNITIES THERE MIGHT BE IN CLEAN ENERGY, IN CLEAN TECH, AND HOW TO BUILD YOU KNOW THOSE SOLUTIONS IN WAYS THAT ARE GOOD FOR COMMUNITIES.

>> SO IT'S NOT JUST THE LATITUDE, IT'S THE ATTITUDE.

>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

>> AND THE WELCOMING SPIRIT OF A PLACE I SUPPOSE.

>> THE CITY OF GOOD NEIGHBORS, THEY CALL IT.

>> OH, NICE.

NICE.

AND YOU FOUND THAT TO BE THE CASE?

>> I HAVE TOTALLY.

YEAH.

>> OUR CLIMATE CORRESPOND BILL WEIR REPORTING THERE.

AND THIS COMES AS TODAY PRESIDENT BIDEN UNVEILS ANOTHER $6 BILLION IN FUNDING FOR CLIMATE RESILIENCE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.