>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," WE'RE SPENDING THE ENTIRE SHOW ON THE ISSUE OF PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN CONTROLLED BY OTHERS.

FIRST, AFTER YEARS OF PETITIONING, BRITNEY SPEARS' CONSERVATORSHIP IS OVER, AND BUT HERS IS NOT THE ONLY SUCH FIGHT, AND HER CASE HAS RAISED A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT JUST HOW FAR CONSERVATORSHIPS GO IN MANY CASES.

I'M JOINED BY AN ATTORNEY AND ADVOCATE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES WHO HAS A FAR BETTER ITEM.

THEN, LATER, A LOOK AT A NEW REPORT FROM BROWN, ON HOW THE UNIVERSITY HAS ADDRESSED RACISM AND TIES TO SLAVERY AND HOW FAR IT HAS TO GO.

PLUS, TWO WELL-CONNECTED WHITE MEN ACTUALLY FACING CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL OTHERS: TRUMP ADVISOR, STEVE BANNON AND CONSPIRACY THEORIST, ALEX JONES.

>> Braude: THE CONSERVATORSHIP THAT CONTROLLED BRITNEY SPEARS EVERY MOVE FOR THIRTEEN YEARS IS NO MORE, THANKS TO AN L.A. JUDGE'S LONG-AWAITED RULING.

THE CASE GAINED INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION THROUGH THE "#FREEBRITNEY" MOVEMENT AND CENTERED AROUND A LEGAL ARRANGEMENT FIRST CREATED IN 2008, WHICH PUT HER FATHER IN CONTROL OF BOTH SPEARS' FINANCES AND HER PERSONAL LIFE-- FROM HER ABILITY TO TRAVEL, TO WHERE AND WHEN SHE COULD SEEK MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH CARE.

BUT AS HER LAWYER SAID AFTER THE DECISION WAS MADE, THIS WAS NOT A VICTORY FOR BRITNEY SPEARS ALONE.

>> SHE HELPED SHINE... A LIGHT, ON NOT ONLY THIS CONSERVATORSHIP, BUT SHE HELPED SHINE A LIGHT ON CONSERVATORSHIPS AND GUARDIANSHIPS FROM COAST TO COAST.

>> Braude: ACTIVISTS FOR SENIOR CITIZENS AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES HAVE POINTED TO THE MILLION-PLUS PEOPLE LIVING UNDER CONSERVATORSHIPS IN THE U.S. AT ANY GIVEN POINT.

MANY OF WHOM, LIKE SPEARS, HAVE LOST BASICALLY ALL OF THEIR PERSONAL FREEDOMS, WITH QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER SUCH DRASTIC STEPS ARE NECESSARY IN ALL SUCH CASES.

I'M JOINED BY ATTORNEY JONATHAN MARTINIS, THE SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR LAW AND POLICY AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY'S BURTON BLATT INSTITUTE, WHICH ADVOCATES FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.

HE WAS THE LAWYER POR THE JUSTICE FOR JENNY AND ALSO SPOKEN AT FREE BRITTANY RALLIES OVER THE YEARS.

GOOD TO SIGH, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WHAT IS THE LIKELY IMPACT OF THE SPARIES CASE LET'S SAY FOR THAT PORTION OF THE MILLION PLUS CONSERVATORSHIPS THAT HAVE BEGUN TOO FAR?

>> TO IT BE DETERMINED BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT I HOPE.

I HOPE THAT LIKE MR. ROSEN DS GUARD SAYS BRITNEY'S CASE DOES IN FACT SHINE A LIGHT AND INSPIRE OTHERS.

HE IS CORRECT THERE ARE BY SOME ESTIMATES BETWEEN 1.2 AND 1.5 MILLION PEOPLE IN GUARDIANSHIP RIGHT NOW BY ONE STUDY OVER 90% HAVE LOST ALL OF THEIR RIGHTS.

AND IF BRITNEY SPARIES CAN BE A BEACON FOR THEM TO SAY LIKE SHE DID, I WANT MY RIGHTS BACK, IT WILL HAVE A GREAT IMPACT.

>> Braude: WE SHOULD BE CLEAR HERE, YOU'RE NOT AGAINST ALL CONSERVATORSHIPS OR GUARDIANSHIPS WHICH I THINK ARE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING, YOUR VIEW I BELIEVE IS THAT IN SITUATIONS LIKE SPARIES, SHE MAY HAVE NEEDED HELP WITH SOME ISSUES, BUT SHE DIDN'T NEED HER LIFE TOTALLY TAKEN AWAY FROM HER.

IS THAT A FAIR SUMMARY OF WHERE YOU ARE ON THESE ISSUES?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I NEVER SAY THERE SHOULD NEVER BE GUARDIANSHIPS.

MY SISTER IS THE GUARDIAN OF MY GODSON AND THANK GOD FOR IT BECAUSE SHE EMPOWERS HIM TO LIVE THE BEST LIFE.

THE CONCERN I HAVE LIKE YOU SAID IS WITH PEOPLE WHO CAN MANAGE OR DIRECT THEIR OWN LIVES HAVING THEIR RIGHTS TO DO SO BEING TAKEN AWAY.

IT IS WHY I SAY BEFORE PUTTING SOMEONE IN A GUARDIANSHIP THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION WE CAN ASK, WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU TRIED.

BECAUSE IF SOMETHING COULD EMPOWER THEM AND LET THEM MAINTAIN THEIR RIGHTS, THAT WOULD BE A FAR BETTER OPTION.

>> Braude: WHAT IS SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> YOU JUST DID IT TRK YOU JUST DID SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW SOMETHING AND YOU ASKED SOMEONE WHO YOU THOUGHT DOES FOR ADVICE OR INFORMATION.

AND THAT IS WHAT SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING IS.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US DOES EACH AND EVERY DAY.

AM FACT, THINK ABOUT THE CLICHES WE HAVE ABOUT DECISION MAKING.

DON'T GO OFF HALF-COCKED, MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE, GET A SECOND OPINION, ALL OF THESE MEMES GET SUPPORT TO NAKE THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE.

AND PEOPLE WITHOUT DISABILITIES OR TEMPORARILY ABLED BODY PEOPLE AS WE CALL THEM ARE PRAISED FOR DOING THAT.

PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES NOT SO MUCH.

>> Braude: HERE IS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND, YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE RADIO, YOU TOLD US 14 STATES MOST RECENTLY NEW HAMPSHIRE I BELIEVE PLUS D.C. HAVE LAWS ABOUT SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING.

AND BY THE WAY THERE HAVE BEEN BILLS FILED IN MASS MS.

IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND THEY ARE SPENDING BUT AS OF THE MOMENT THEY ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE NEED FOR THOSE BILLS IS MY UNDERSTANDING IS VIRTUALLY EVERY STATE STATUTE AROUND CONSERVATORSHIP OR GUARDIANSHIP SAYS THE JUDGE IF HE OR SHE DECIDES THEY'RE APPROPRIATE SHOULD TAKE THE LEAST RESTRICTED ROUTE TO PROTECTION OF THAT INDIVIDUAL.

WELL, APPROXIMATE THE LEAST PROTECTED ROUTE IS SUPPORTIVE SCITION MAKING, WHY DON'T THEY JUST DO THAT?

REQUEST DO THEY NEED A SEPARATE STATUTE?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT IN THEORY.

IN PRACTICE IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

WE KNOW AGAIN WE KNOW THAT 90% OF GUARDIANSHIPS TAKE AWAY ALL RIGHTS.

AND EVEN IN STATESK AND HAVE I BEEN PUB LEARNED ON THIS, I THINK IT IS SOMETHING LIKE 48 OF THE 50 STATES PLUS D.C. HAVE SPECIFIC LAWS SAYING EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.

GUARDIANSHIP CANNOT BE ENTERED UNLESS THE PERSON IS UNABLE OR INCAPABLE OR PUT IN THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE OPTION.

ALL OF THESE ENCOMPASS SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING.

THE PROBLEM, WHAT WE KNOW AGAIN FROM DATA COLLECTION AND FROM STUDIES IS JUST NOT HAPPENING.

SO ADDING SPECIFIC RECOGNITION FOR SUPPORTIVE DECISION MAKING AND A LESS RESTRICTIVE ALTERNATIVE MIGHT JUST MEAN A JUDGE LOOKS IT IT UP.

MIGHT JUST MEAN AN ATTORNEY GIVES IT A TRY.

AND MIGHT JUST MEAN THAT SOME PEOPLE TO KEEP THEIR RIGHTS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW THE TWO THINGS ABOUT THE SPEARS CASE THAT HAVE PUT ME OVER THE EDGE, ONE THAT SHE WAS UNABLE TO PICK HER OWN LAWYER, I WANT TO GET TO THAT IN A SECOND WITH YOUK AND TWO, THAT SHE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW UNTIL LATE IN THE GAME THAT SHE COULD PETITION THE COURT TO END THIS THING.

SPEAKING OF THE LAWYER THING, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

A PERSON IN A GUARDIANSHIP DOESN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE HIS OR HER LAWYER; IS THAT CORRECT?

>> SOME JUDGES HAVE SAID THAT AND HERE IS THE REASON WHY, AND I'M NOT SAYING I AGREE WITH THIS, IN FACT, TO ME THIS IS AWFUL.

BUT THE ARGUMENT THAT COMES FROM SOME ASK THAT FOR A PERSON IN A GUARDIANSHIP THAT PERSON MUST BE DECLARED TO BE LEGALLY INCOMPETENT AND UNABLE TO CONTRACT.

RETAINING A LAWYER IS A CONTRACT.

AND HERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT POINT OF VIEW.

JUST LIKE YOU SAID, IT DOOMS PEOPLE TO NEVER HAVING SOMEONE TO ADVOCATE FOR THEM.

CONSIDER BRITNEY SPEARS.

THE ANALOGY I ALWAYS GIVE IS THAT EVERYONE CELEBRATED WHEN BRITNEY SPEARS GOT TO CHOOSE HER OWN LAWYER AFTER 13 YEARS IN A GUARDIANSHIP, BUT WHAT THAT MEANT IS THIS, IF 13 YEARS AGO BRITNEY SPARIES HAD COMMITTED MURDER WITH AN A, SH IF SHE WAS AN AXE MURDER SHE COULD HAVE PICKED HER OWN LAWYER THEN SO WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES ESPECIALLY THOSE IN GUARDIANSHIPS HAVE LESS RIGHTS THAN AXE MURDERERS.

AND IT FORCES US TO ASK TWO QUESTIONS.

WHY?

WHY ARE WE TREATING PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AS HAVING LESS RIGHTS THAN AXE MURDERERS, AND TWO K WE DO BETTER, AND SHOULDN'T WE DO BETTER.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THE OTHER THING AS I MENTIONED TO YOU JONATHAN A SECRETARY AGO IS THIS WHOLE NOTION THAT SPARIES APPARENTLY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD A RIGHT TO PETITION THE COURT TO END THIS IS PRISON-LIKE CONSERVATORSHIP, APPARENTLY, OF HER FATHER.

DON'T STATES REQUIRE THAT THERE BE SOME PERIODIC REVIEW OR IS IT JUST YOU LIE AM A DE FACTO CELL UNTIL YOU MAKE A MOVE.

I MEAN WHAT ARE THE LAWS SAY?

>> SOME DO, THE VAST MAJORITY DO NOT.

AND YOU AGAIN BRING UP ONE OF THE GREATEST PROBLEMS, IN THE BRITNEY SPARIES CASE IT IS HIGHLIGHTED EVEN MORE.

I MEAN SHE HAD A COURT APPOINTED ATTORNEY.

JUN WHO WAS PAID FROM HER ESTATE.

SO AS LONG AS SHE WAS IN GUARDIANSHIP A COURT APPOINTED ATTORNEY WAS BEING PAID.

BY HER.

EVEN THOUGH SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE IN THAT CONSERVATORSHIP.

SO THERE WAS SOMEBODY WHO AT LEAST WE HAVE TO THINK HAD A VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING HER IN, TO THAT PERSON ACCORDING TO BRITNEY NEVER TOLD HER SHE COULD ASK TO GET OUT.

THAT MEANS THAT LAWYER MADE 13 YEARS OF PAYMENTS FROM HER ESTATE AND IF HE NEVER TOLD HER THAT ONE OF HER RIGHTS WAS TO ASK TO TERMINATE THE CONSERVATORSHIP, THAN I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU.

IT'S TERRIFYING, ISN'T IT.

IMAGINE NOT ONLY NOT KNOWING THAT YOU CAN FIGHT BUT NOT KNOWING THAT YOU HAVE SOMEONE TO FIGHT FOR YOU OR EVEN HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE SOMEONE FIGHT FOR YOU.

>> Braude: IS IT TOO RADICAL IT TO SUGGEST THAT ONE OF THE THINGS LEGISLATORS SHOULD CONTEMPLATE SINCE THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS NOT WORKING, IS RATHER THAN PERIODIC REVIEW WHICH IS HONORED IN THE BREACH, THAT THESE THINGS BE SUNSET SO THAT REBUTTAL-- REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTIONS THAT AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME THAT THE JUDGE DETERMINES UPDPRONT, THAT CAN BE NO LONGER THAN X, THAT PERSON'S BEING IRCHED A GUARDIANSHIP TERMINATES UNLESS THE STATE OR WHOEVER IS THE APPROPRIATE PLAYER DEMONSTRATES AGAIN THAT HE OR SHE NEEDS TO BE IN A GUARDIANSHIP S THAT ABSURDLY RADICAL REFORM?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

IN FACT, I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN QUAISES AND CONSULTED WITH CASES WITH JUST THAT HAS HAPPENED WHERE THE IDEA SRK THE MOST COMMON AND MOST FREQUENT PERSON GOING INTO GUARDIANSHIP ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL ON DISABILITY ARE 18 TO 24 YEAR OLDS WITH INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES.

WHO HAS A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO GROW AND LEARN AND DEVELOP THAN AN 18 YEAR OLD.

SO I HAVE PROPOSED THAT IN A NUMBER OF CASES WHERE IF SOMEONE WHO IS 18, MIND YOU, MIGHT NOT BE READY TO RUN HIS OR HER OWN LIFE, GUILTY AS CHARGED, BY THE WAY.

THEN THERE SHOULD BE SOMEONE WHO WHO IS ABLE TO SAY I CAN HELP OR I AM-- PART OF MY GUARDIANSHIP IS GOING TO BE TEACHING YOU AND WORKING WITH YOU TO DEVELOP THOSE SKILLS, AND UNLESS IT'S PROVEN LIKE YOU SAID, LIKE THE GUARDIANSHIP IS STILL NEEDED, IT SHOULD TERMINATE, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.

>> AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS I MENTIONED JENNY HATCH AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE PROBABLY HAVE HEARD THE NAME AND KNEW OF THE CASE.

IN 90 SECONDS, I KNOW THIS IS A TALL ORDER, REQUEST YOU BRIEFLY TELL US ABOUT THE CASE OF JENNY HATCH AND HOW SHE IS TODAY.

>> YES, WELL, JENNY ASK AND WAS A PERSON WITH DOWN SYNDROME.

AT THE TIME JENNY WENT INTO GUARDIANSHIP SHE HAD HAD HER OWN JOB FOR FIVE YEARS, HER OWN APARTMENT, NEITHER ONE OF THOSE-- THEY HAD HER OWN LIFE, FRIENDS SHE HUNG OUT WITH, POLITICS THAT SHE WAS INVOLVED IN, A CHURCH SHE WENT TO.

AFTER GETTING TOO A AN ACCIDENT, SHE WAS HIT BY A CAR THAT CAUSED NO COGNITIVE LIMITATIONS, SHE WAS PUT INTO A GUARDIANSHIP WHERE SHE LITERALLY WALKED INTO A COURT ROOM IN VIRGINIA WITH ALL OF HER RIGHTS, ALL THE RIGHTS THAT YOU HAVE.

WALKED OUT THREE HOURS LATE WE ARE NOTHING.

AND WHEN I MET HER SHE WAS LIVING IN A GROUP HOME EVEN THOUGH SHE WANTED TO LIVE WITH FRIENDS.

SHE WAS WORKING IN A SHELTERED WORKSHOP MAKING LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS WELCOME TO GO BACK TO HER JOB.

SHE WAS TOLD SHE HAD TO GO TO TAYE DIFFERENT CHURCH THAN SHE WANTED TO, WHAT WE DID WITH JENNY WAS SHOW EXACTLY WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT ABOUT DECISION MAKING SHE WAS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF DOING ALL THE THING THAN WE DO, SHE MIGHT NEED MORE SUPPORT BUT IN THE SAME WAY I NEED SUPPORT AND YOU NEED SUPPORT WHEN WE GET THEM, SHE DOESN'T.

AND AFTER A YEAR OF LITIGATION, SIX DAYS OF TRIAL, JENNY WAS FREED.

JENNY IS NOW LIVING FRIDAY, AND HAS BEEN SINCE 2013.

SHE IS WORKING.

SHE IS LIVING AND SHE IS VERY HAPPY.

>> Braude: JONATHAN MARTINIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE TONIGHT, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> IT'S BEEN MY HONOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> BE WELL.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF OTHER MAJOR COURTROOM ACTION WITH WIDE-RANGING IMPLICATIONS TODAY AS WELL.

IN THE TRIAL OF KYLE RITTENHOUSE-- THE THEN-17-YEAR-OLD WHO SHOT THREE PEOPLE, KILLING TWO, DURING A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST IN KENOSHA, WISCONSIN-- THE JUDGE DISMISSED A MISDEMEANOR WEAPONS CHARGE AGAINST HIM TODAY, WHICH, BY ALL ACCOUNTS, WAS THE CHARGE ON WHICH HE WAS MOST LIKELY TO BE CONVICTED.

WISCONSIN LAW BANS ANYONE UNDER 18 FROM EVEN CARRYING THE TYPE OF AR-15 STYLE RIFLE HE USED IN THE SHOOTING.

BUT THE JUDGE CITED AN EXCEPTION TO THE LAW, RELATED TO HUNTING, FOR THE DISMISSAL.

HUNTING?

>> THE FIRST CON SPIRS SEE THER SISS AND INTERNET RADIO PROVOCATEUR ALEX JONES CONSPIRACY THEORIST AND INTERNET RADIO VILLAIN, ALEX JONES, WHO, AS OF TODAY, HAS BEEN CONVICTED IN EVERY DEFAMATION CHARGE BROUGHT AGAINST HIM BY THE FAMILIES OF TEN FIRST-GRADERS WHO WERE MURDERED AT SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN CONNECTICUT, OVER THE HARASSMENT THEY'VE ENDURED BY JONES AND HIS SYCOPHANTIC FOLLOWERS.

HARASSMENT ONE PARENT DESCRIBED TO "FRONTLINE" AWHILE BACK, AND SHARED WHAT I SHOULD WARN WAS A DISTURBING EXAMPLE.

>> ANYTHING THEY CAN DO TO TRIGGER TROUBLE IN MY LIFE, THEY HAVE DONE.

I GOT A CALL FROM SOMEONE AND I HAD JUST MOVED INTO A NEW APARTMENT.

HE READ ME THE ADDRESS I HAD JUST MOVED INTO AND HE READ ME MY SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.

>> YOU'RE GOING TO DIE YOU MOTHER (/ BLEEP/ ) (/ BLEEP/ ).

(/ BLEEP/ ).

JEW BASTARD.

>> Braude: A CONNECTICUT JUDGE DECLARED JONES GUILTY BY DEFAULT TODAY, FOR REFUSING TO TURN OVER COURT ORDERED DOCUMENTS.

AND THAT DECISION, ALONG WITH THREE PREVIOUS RULINGS IN TEXAS, MAKE FOUR LEGAL WINS FOR THE FAMILIES WHOM JONES, FOR YEARS, ACCUSED OF BEING ACTORS IN A GOVERNMENT-LED PLOT TO CONFISCATE AMERICANS' GUNS.

OF COURSE, DESPITE THE HORROR OF THAT SHOOTING AND MY OWN NAIVE BELIEF THAT IT MIGHT ACTUALLY LEAD TO SOME ACTION, THIS COUNTRY STILL HASN'T PASSED ANY MEANINGFUL GUN REFORM, NEARLY A DECADE LATER.

BUT NEXT YEAR, JURIES IN CONNECTICUT AND TEXAS WILL DECIDE HOW MUCH JONES WILL HAVE TO PAY THESE FAMILIES FOR PUTTING THEM THROUGH EVEN MORE HELL, AFTER THE DEATHS OF THEIR CHILDREN.

AS FOR THE OTHER WHITE MAN FINALLY GETTING AT LEAST SOME OF WHAT HE HAS COMING TO HIM, THAT'D BE FORMER TRUMP ADVISOR STEVE BANNON, WHO TURNED HIMSELF IN TO THE F.B.I.

TODAY, AFTER HE WAS INDICTED FOR IGNORING A CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA FROM THE HOUSE COMMITTEE INVESTIGATING THE DEADLY JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL.

BANNON COULD GET ANYWHERE FROM TWO MONTHS TO TWO YEARS IN PRISON FOR THE CONTEMPT CHARGES, WHICH BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ON THE COMMITTEE PUSHED FOR.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I VOTED TO HOLD STEVE BANNON IN CONTEMPT, HE DIDN'T COOPERATE AT ALL.

>> I'M VERY GLAD THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS MOVED FORWARD IN THIS FASHION.

>> Braude: AS AM I.

NEXT UP, IT WAS 15 YEARS AGO THAT BROWN UNIVERSITY FIRST RELEASED ITS LANDMARK "SLAVERY AND JUSTICE REPORT," WHICH DOCUMENTED HOW THE SCHOOL'S FOUNDER AND OTHERS WHO HELPED BUILD UP THE SCHOOL, PROFITED OFF THE SLAVE TRADE.

IT LAID OUT RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO MOVE FORWARD FROM IT'S PAST AND ALSO STARTED CONVERSATIONS AT HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTES ACROSS THE NATION ABOUT THEIR COMPLICATED HISTORIES WITH RACE AND SLAVERY.

NOW, 15 YEARS LATER, BROWN IS RELEASING A FOLLOW-UP REPORT WITH NEW INSIGHTS INTO THE ORIGINAL FINDINGS, AND NEW ASSESSMENTS AS TO HOW FAR THE UNIVERSITY HAS COME AND HOW FAR IT HAS TO GO TO ADDRESS AND MAKE UP FOR ITS PAST.

I'M JOINED NOW BY ONE OF THE EDITORS OF THIS SECOND EDITION REPORT, ANTHONY BOGUES, THE DIRECTOR OF BROWN'S CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF SLAVERY AND JUSTICE.

ANTHONY BOGUESK VERY GOOD TO MEET YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ASKING.

>> Braude: WHAT CAUSED PRESIDENT SIMMONS 15 YEARS AGO TO COMMISSION THIS FIRST REPORT?

>> I THINK AS YOU SAID CLEARLY IN THE INTERVIEW WHICH IS PUBLISHED IN THE SECOND EDITION, FLA SHE, WHEN SHE ARRIVED ON CAMPUS, THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT OF THE IVY LEAGUE UNIVERSITY, SHE WAS TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS THE REAL HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSITY.

SHE HAD HEARD RUMORS THAT OR HEARD STORIES UNIVERSITY HAD KEGHTED TO THE SLAVE TRADE.

SHE HAD TRIED TO FIND INFORMATION ON THIS.

AND SHE COULDN'T.

AND SO SHE TRIED WHAT SHE HAD TO DO, ONE OF OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES WAS REALLY TO JUST TRY AND FIND THE HISTORICAL TRUTH OF THIS.

SO SHE ESTABLISHED A COMMITTEE.

TO VECT THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE UNIVERSITY TO THE ATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE AND YEARS LATER, SHE-- AS SHE SAID IN THE INTERVIEW IT WAS REALLY HER RESPONSE TO-- WHAT WAS THE-- Z SHE COULDN'T FIND SHE THOUGHT OKAY, WE NEED TO DO THIS.

>> Braude: AND JUST TO TIP OF THE ICEBERG, THE BROWN BROTHERS I THINK FOUR OF THEM AMONG OTHERS OBVIOUSLY WERE INVOLVED IN THE SLAVE TRADE.

IN THIS SECOND REPORT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND IT IS REVEALED THAT SHE GOT A LOT OF BLOWBACK FOR HAVING DECIDED TO MAKE THIS EFFORT OF WHAT KIND, OF WHAT NATURE?

>> THE BLOWBACK IN THE INTERVIEW WHICH WE DID TOGETHER IS THAT IT TWEANT SO MUCH FROM THE BROWN COMMITTEE, EITHER FROM THE CORPORATION OR BROWN ALUM OR FROM THE UNIVERSITY COMMUNITY ITSELF, BUT FROM OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSITY, WHERE MANY FOUND THAT THE UNIVERSITY LIKE BROWN SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS.

THAT CERTAINLY SHE AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS.

AND THAT WHAT SHE WAS DOING WAS PANDERING TO-- WHO WERE-- POLITICALLY CORRECT.

>> SO IN THE INTERVENING YEARS BETWEEN THE TWO REPORTS, WHAT DID BROWN DO, OBVIOUSLY THEY CREATED YOUR CENTER.

WE KNOW THAT.

WHAT OTHER THINGS DID BROWN DO TO MOVE THE PROVERBIAL BULL FORWARD.

>> WELL, THE UNIVERSITY ESTABLISHED A MEMORIAL WHICH IS A SIGNIFICANT MEMORIAL COMMEMORATING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY AND THE ATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE AND IT IS ONE OF THE MORE PROMINENT-- ON CAMPUS.

THE UNIVERSITY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS CREATED SOMETHING CALLED A-- WE SEEK TO THINK ABOUT THE REPRESENTATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS THAT NATIVE AMERICANS, ON THE FACULTY.

AS WELL AS IN THE STUDENT BODY.

THE UNIVERSITY ALSO DID SOME-- MADE A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO PROMINENT PUBLIC SCHOOLS-- RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE COURT AND I THINK WHAT THE REPORT DID WAS THIS OPENED A DOOR FOR THE UNIVERSITY GOING FORWARD TO ALWAYS BE THINK BEING HOW DO WE TACKLE HISTORICAL INJUSTICE AND LACK OF HISTORICAL JUSTICE, IT WAS A FRAMEWORK FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO ALWAYS THINK ABOUT.

>> Braude: AS YOU KNOW IN MARCH OF THIS YEAR MONTHS BEFORE THE SECOND REPORT WAS RELEASED IT IT WAS A WHOLE OF THE STUDENT-- INSTITUTE BODY AT BROWN I WANT TO PUT UP THE RESULTS OF TWO BALLOT QUESTIONS.

ONE WAS THE CALL FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO IDENTIFY DESCENDANTS OF ENSLAVED AFRICANS AFFILIATED WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF THE BROWN FAMILY, 89 PERCENT OF THE STUDENTS SUPPORTED THAT.

SECOND QUESTION WAS A CALL FOR THE SCHOOL TO PROVIDE REPARATION TO IDENTIFY DESCENDANTS OF SLAVES ENTANGLED WITH AND OR AFFLICTED BY THE UNIVERSITY AND THE BROWN FAMILY, THAT DID PRACTICALLY AS WELL GETTING 85 PERCENT SUPPORT.

WHAT DOES THE SECOND REPORT SAY ABOUT REPARATION?

>> THE SECOND REPORT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT REPARATIONS SPECIFICALLY.

BECAUSE THE SECOND REPORT IS REALLY A REPUBLICATION OF THE-- WHAT THE IS DIFFERENT IN THE SECOND ADDITION OF THE REPORT IS WHAT HAS BEEN PART OF THE SECOND EDITION IS THAT IT IT ACTUALLY IS MORE COMPLETE IN THE SENSE OF THINK BEING CONTEXT AND AS WELL AS IMPACT THAT IS THE WAY IN WHICH THAT THE FIRST REPORT OF 2006 IMPACTED NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES UNIVERSITIES, BUT UNIVERSITIES AROUND THE WORLD AND ALSO ABOUT THE CONTEXT IN WHICH WE BEGIN TO DO THIS WORK.

SO IT IS A MORE COMPLETE SUPPORT BECAUSE THE REPORT WAS THE REPORT WITHOUT ANY CONTEXT.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE ASKING.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING.

SO YOU RAISE THE QUESTION OF REPARATION.

AND IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, IF ONE IS THINKING ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF REPAIR.

RACIAL SLAVERY IS ONE OF THE MOST PROFOUND HISTORICAL INJUSTICES THAN WE HAVE TO THINK HOW DO WE REPAIR IT.

THE POSITION THE UNIVERSITY DOES NOT HAVE A POSITION ON REPARATION, OR ONE ASPECT OF REPARATIONS WHICH IS QUESTION OF MONETARY DISTRIBUTION IN SOME WAY.

WHAT I THINK NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A REAL MAJOR CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY, THE STUDENTS AND THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH WE EXIST WHICH IS THE COMMUNITY OF-- IN THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND.

AROUND THIS QUESTION OF REPAIR AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN.

FIRST, I WILL TELL YOU WHY, BECAUSE WE ALSO, THE UNIVERSITY ALSO EXISTS OR-- PEOPLE'S LIVES SO THAT THE QUESTION OF REPAIR IS A LARGER QUESTION OF HOW TO THINK ABOUT WHERE YOU ARE, IN WHAT COMMUNITY YOU ARE, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DO IN THE PURSUIT OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND THEN HOW DO WE BEGIN TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS SO THAT WE CAN ALL BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT WHAT DOES REPAIR REALLY LOOK LIKE.

THAT TO ME IS THE NEXT STEP THAT UNIVERSITIES BEGIN-- .

>> Braude: JUST SO I UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT IF I MAY.

I AM AWARE, AND YOU KNOW MUCH BETTER THAN I. GEORGETOWN FOR EXAMPLE WHEN WE HEAR LEGACY ADMISSIONS WE GENERALLY THINK OF THE CHILDREN OF RICH WHITE FAMILIES.

THEY IDENTIFY 272 SLAIFERS WHO WERE SOLD TO FAY OFF THE DEBT OF GEORGE DOWN IN THE ERLEE 1800S.

THEY HAVE PROVIDED LEGACY ADMISSIONS FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE 272 AS YOU KNOW.

THE STATE OF VIRGINIA HAS SAID ITS FIVE PUBLIC COLLEGES HAVE TO PROVIDE QUOTE TANGIBLE BENEFITEDS, WHATEVER THAT MEANS, ARE THOSE THE KINDS OF DIRECTIONS YOU SEE BROWN GOING IN IN THE FUTURE?

>> LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

THE UNIVERSITY IS MOVING IN A DIRECTION IN WHICH WE ARE DEVELOPING A SORT OF PROGRAM, IN WHICH THERE-- RIGHT ACROSS-THE-BOARD.

SECONDLY, WE ARE-- THE UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT JUST SA NOINSED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, WE ARE GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE KIDS IN THE PROVE DENT-- PROVIDENCE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, RHODE ISLAND PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE, ONE OF THE STRUCTURAL DIFFICULTIES IN RHODE ISLAND IS THAT IF YOU GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL IN RHODE ISLAND YOU CAN COME TO BROWN, YOU KNOW, BUT IF YOU GO TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOL, MOST OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT-- SO THAT IS IN MY VIEW HAS TO BE CORRECTED.

THE UNIVERSITY HAS TO THINK ABOUT HOW, WHAT IS THIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH IS EXISTS.

NOW THE THING WHAT DID GEORGETOWN-- TO DO WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT IS THAT THEY WERE ABLE BECAUSE THEY HAD A BITTIVE-- FROM THE JESUIT PRIESTS, WHAT IS-- WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT IS CAN WE FIND THE NAME OF THE SLAVES WHO WERE ON THE SHIP, THAT IS A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

THAT IS-- BUT I THINK-- THE BROTHERS PARTICULARLY JOHN, CAN WE BEGIN TO THINK OF THE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN CORRECT AND CREATE SITUATIONS IN WHICH THE KIDS OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICANS, THE KIDS OF LATINX, THE KIDS OF THE INDIGENT PEOPLE, CAN THEY COME TO BROWN, WHAT IS IN THE PIPELINE CAN WE HAVE SO THAT THEY CAN DO THIS OR ON THE HORIZON.

>> ANTHONY BOGUES I HOPE YOU STAY IN TOUCH WITH US, WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN YOUR WORK, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> YOU CAN READ THE FULL SECOND EDITION OF THE REPORT AT slaveryandjusticereport.brown.

edu.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

I'LL TALK TO EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND THE DEAN OF B.U.

'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, SANDRO GALEA, ON WHERE WE STAND WITH THE PANDEMIC WE'RE IN NOW AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES IN THE FUTURE, IN HIS NEW BOOK: "THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME."

PLUG THE PRESIDENT & CEO OF THE BOSTON FOUNDATION ON A ANY REPORT FROM HIS ORGANIZATION SHOWING JUST HOW MUCH THE REGION'S MULTIRACIAL POPULATION HAS EXPLODED IN THE LAST DECADE, THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, PLEASE STAY SAFE.

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