♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> CARNAGE IN GAZA CANNOT CONTINUE.

THAT'S A NEW WARNING FROM THE U.N., AS ISRAELI FORCES TAKE CONTROL OF GAZA'S LARGEST HOSPITAL.

THEN, I SPEAK TO U.S.

SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY, WHO SAYS THE CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL IS ALREADY TOO HIGH.

PLUS, THE POWER OF WORDS.

AMERICAN ISRAELI HISTORIAN OMER BARTOV DEFINES GENOCIDE.

AND ISLAMOPHOBIA IN AMERICA.

JOURNALIST LAILA EL HADDAD TALKS TO HARI ABOUT THE TROUBLING RISE IN HATE CRIMES.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYBODY, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AFTER WEEKS OF FIERCE FIGHTING, HAMAS SAYS ISRAEL HAS GAINED CONTROL OF GAZA'S MAIN HOSPITAL.

WHERE THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN SHELTERING.

ONCE A VITAL MEDICAL CENTER IN GAZA, NOW MANY OF AL SHIFA'S WARDS LOOK LIKE THIS, DAMAGED AND DESERTED.

DOCTORS SAY THE HOSPITAL'S MAIN BUILDING HAS EFFECTIVELY CEASED FUNCTIONING, AND THAT THE SITUATION INSIDE IS CATASTROPHIC.

ISRAEL CLAIMS TO BE CONDUCTING A TARGETED OPERATION AGAINST HAMAS, A COMMAND CENTER UNDERNEATH THE HOSPITAL.

BUT MEDICAL OFFICIALS AND HAMAS HAVE BOTH CONSISTENTLY DENIED THIS.

U.N. AID CHIEF MARTIN GRIFFITHS SAYS HE IS, QUOTE, APPALLED BY THE SCENES, AND THAT HOSPITALS ARE NOT BATTLEGROUNDS.

NADA BASHIR BRINGS US THE DEVELOPMENTS AT THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL.

>> Reporter: WEEKS OF BOMBARDMENT HAD ALREADY LEFT GAZA'S LARGEST HOSPITAL IN WHAT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS A CATASTROPHIC SITUATION.

DOCTORS AT AL SHIFA WORKING UNDER IMPOSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES CARING FOR HUNDREDS OF PATIENTS.

AS ISRAEL'S MILITARY INCURSION MOVES INSIDE THE HOSPITAL.

>> Translator: THE OCCUPATION SOLDIERS ARE STILL ON THE GROUND FLOOR.

THEY ARE SEARCHING EMPLOYEES, CIVILIANS, EVEN THE INJURED AND PATIENTS.

SOME WERE STRIPPED AND PLACED IN DEHUMANIZING AND MISERABLE CONDITIONS.

>> Reporter: ISRAEL'S RAID ON AL SHIFA HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS PRECISE AND TARGETED.

FOCUSED, THEY SAY, ON CLAIMS OF A HAMAS COMMAND CENTER BENEATH THE HOSPITAL.

BUT IT IS CIVILIANS, INCLUDING MEDICAL STAFF AND PATIENTS, THAT HAVE BEEN CAUGHT IN THE CENTER OF THIS UNRELENTING BATTLE.

>> WE CAN'T LOOK THROUGH THE WINDOWS OR DOORS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.

WITHIN THE HOSPITAL, YOU CAN HEAR CONTINUOUS SHOOTING.

BUT AGAIN, IT'S A SCARY SITUATION.

>> Reporter: WHAT ARE THE SOUNDS -- I'M HEARING SOUNDS?

>> IT'S CONTINUOUS SHOOTING FROM THE TANKS.

>> Reporter: ISRAELI DEFENSE OFFICIALS SAY SOLDIERS FOUND CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT HAMAS USED AL SHIFA HOSPITAL AS WHAT THEY HAVE DESCRIBED AS A TERROR HEADQUARTERS.

NO FURTHER DETAILS WERE PROVIDED ON THE NATURE OF THIS EVIDENCE.

BOTH HAMAS AND HEALTH CARE OFFICIALS HAVE LONG DENIED A MILITARY PRESENCE WITHIN AL SHIFA.

CNN CANNOT VERIFY EITHER SIDE'S CLAIMS.

WITH OVER 1,000 PATIENTS AND MEDICAL STAFF STILL INSIDE THE HOSPITAL, MANY HAVE EXPRESSED ALARM OVER THE CIVILIAN IMPACT OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY'S OPERATION.

>> OUR CONCERN ON THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE IS FOR THE WELFARE OF THE PATIENTS OF THAT HOSPITAL.

WHICH IS, OF COURSE, IN GREAT PERIL AT THE MOMENT.

WE HAVE NO FUEL TO RUN IT.

THE BABIES HAVE NO INCUBATORS.

NEWLY BORN.

SOME ARE DEAD ALREADY.

WE CAN'T MOVE THEM OUT.

IT'S TOO DANGEROUS.

>> Reporter: ON WEDNESDAY, THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID THEIR TROOPS DELIVERED MEDICAL SUPPLIES TO THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL.

CNN CANNOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THIS CLAIM, AND HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO REACH THE HOSPITAL FOR CONFIRMATION.

HOWEVER, THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF GAZA'S HOSPITALS HAS WARNED THAT BABIES AT AL SHIFA ARE IN SEVERE DANGER, AS CONDITIONS IN THE HOSPITAL DETERIORATE FURTHER.

ADDING THAT THERE IS NO PLACE TO MOVE DOZENS OF INCUBATORS OUTSIDE OF THE HOSPITAL UNDER CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT EVEN AS ISRAEL TIGHTENS ITS GRIP ON AL SHIFA, NOW SAID TO BE UNDER THE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY, ACCORDING TO HAMAS, DOCTORS SAY THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER THEY CAN TO SAVE THE LIVES OF THOSE WOUNDED IN THIS DEVASTATING WAR.

>> EGYPT NOW SAYS THAT IT IS WORKING AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO EVACUATE SOME OF THE NEWBORN BABIES WHO ARE MOST AT RISK.

AND LET'S NOT FORGET HOW MANY CHILDREN WERE KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th, ABOUT 30, FROM INSIDE ISRAEL.

THE U.S. SAYS IT DIDN'T OKAY THE ISRAELI OPERATIONS AROUND THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL, BUT THEN AGAIN, IT SAYS, IT DOESN'T APPROVE ANY OF ISRAEL'S MILITARY PLANS.

THAT'S FOR ISRAEL.

THE TERRIBLE SITUATION DEVELOPING IN THE MIDDLE EAST WILL SURELY BE ON THE AGENDA WHEN U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN SITS DOWN WITH CHINA'S PRESIDENT XI JINPING AHEAD OF THE HIGH STAKES TALKS, I'VE BEEN TALKING TO SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY.

SENATOR MURPHY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> WAIT TO ASK YOU A FEW POINTED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OPERATION AGAINST THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL RIGHT NOW IN GAZA.

SO, THE TOP U.N. HUMANITARIAN OFFICIAL, MARTIN GRIFFITHS, HAS SAID THIS CARNAGE CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE.

OTHERS HAVE WEIGHED IN VERY, VERY STRONGLY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY BEGINNING TO REALLY TEST EVERYBODY'S, I GUESS TOLERANCE NOW.

DO YOU SUPPORT THE ISRAELI STORMING OF AL SHIFA?

>> SO, LET'S JUST BACK UP, IF WE COULD, FOR A MOMENT, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU AND I HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

ISRAEL HAS TO DESTROY HAMAS' MILITARY CAPABILITIES.

BE ABLE TO LAUNCH AN ATTACK LIKE THEY DID ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND WAR IS DIFFICULT.

IT'S UGLY.

CIVILIANS OFTEN GET HURT, AND HAMAS MAKES THAT MUCH WORSE, AS YOU KNOW, BY IMBEDDING THEMSELVES AND THEIR EQUIPMENT AND THEIR ASSETS INSIDE CIVILIAN BUILDINGS, INSIDE HOSPITALS, CHURCHES, SCHOOLS AND MOSQUES.

THAT'S HAMAS' DECISION TO USE HUMAN BEINGS AS SHIELDS.

WHAT I HAVE SAID, THOUGH, IS THAT THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS BEING KILLED RIGHT NOW INSIDE GAZA IS UNACCEPTABLE, AND IT'S UNSUSTAINABLE, AND, IN FACT, I THINK IT'S CONTRARY TO ISRAEL'S LONG-TERM SECURITY OBJECTIVES, BECAUSE HAMAS IS GOING TO GROW IN STRENGTH, POTENTIALLY, IF THE CIVILIAN DEATH COUNT REMAINS THIS HIGH.

SO, I THINK THAT ISRAEL HAS TO BEGIN TO MAKE DIFFERENT TARGETING DECISIONS.

I WILL BE HONEST WITH YOU, I AM NOT PRIVY TO THE INTEL ON THIS SPECIFIC AS SET, BUT ULTIMATELY, THE CIVILIAN NUMBERS, CASUALTY NUMBERS, HAVE BEEN TOO HIGH, AND I THINK ISRAEL HAS TO BEGIN TO MAKE DIFFERENT DECISIONS, EVEN WHILE IT CONTINUES THE FIGHT.

I DON'T SUPPORT A CEASE-FIRE, I THINK ISRAEL SHOULD CONTINUE TO FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS, I JUST THINK THE CIVILIAN DEATH COUNT HAS BECOME TOO HIGH.

>> CAN I ASK YOU TO CLARIFY?

YOU SAID JUST NOW, YOU DON'T SUPPORT A CEASE-FIRE, BUT YOU DO SUPPORT A SHORT-TERM CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES.

YOU CAME OUT QUITE EARLY IN THIS WAR, VOICING CONCERNS ABOUT CIVILIAN DEATHS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN, HOW LONG?

AND NOW, IN THE INTERVENING, YOU KNOW, TIME, WHEN YOU'RE DESCRIBING THIS CIVILIAN CASUALTY TOLL, DO YOU THINK IT'S TIME TO CALL FOR MORE?

>> SO, I JUST DON'T ACCEPT THE PREMISE THAT THE ONLY TWO CHOICES HERE ARE A CEASE-FIRE, WHICH SOUNDS TO ME LIKE, YOU KNOW, ENDING THE FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS, AND THE CURRENT LEVEL OF CIVILIAN DEATH.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT CIVILIAN CASUALTY COUNTS ON A DAILY BASIS THAT ARE HIGHER THAN MOST ALL OTHER MODERN CONFLICTS.

SO, TO ME, YOU KNOW, TWO THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

ONE, YES, I SUPPORT A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE IN ORDER TO SET UP THE ABILITY TO GET HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE AND FOOD AND WATER TO CITIZENS OF GAZA, I ALSO THINK THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU GET THE HOSTAGES OUT, BUT I ALSO JUST BELIEVE THERE HAS TO BE A CHANGE IN THE STRIKE CALCULUS FOR ISRAEL.

I THINK THERE HAVE OFTEN BEEN DECISIONS MADE THAT HAD FAR TOO HIGH CIVILIAN DEATH COUNTS, WHEN LOOKING AT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE HAMAS ASSET THAT YOU ARE TAKING OUT.

SO, I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

MORE SURGICAL STRIKES, MORE CONCERN FOR THE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS, AND A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE, EITHER SEVERAL DAYS OR A COUPLE HOURS EVERY DAY, IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER HUMANITARIAN RELIEF AND GET THE HOSTAGES OUT OF THERE.

>> SO, THAT'S YOUR VIEW AS A U.S.

SENATOR AND AS A FRIEND OF ISRAEL.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK THE SAME CONCERNS ARE DOING TO YOUR ALLIES IN THE REST OF THE WORLD?

FOR INSTANCE, JORDAN, FOR INSTANCE OTHERS, AND YOU PROBABLY SAW "THE WASHINGTON POST" OP-ED BY KING ABDULLAH, WHO SAID, WE NEED TO STOP THIS BEFORE WE REACH OUR MORAL BREAKING POINT.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT SAID WE ARE WITNESSING A PANDEMIC OF INHUMANITY.

I'VE HAD THE FRENCH PRESIDENT, THE FORMER FRENCH PRESIDENT, THE WORLD USED TO REALLY THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PEACE, AND NOW, THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY MOVING INTO A RELENTLESS WAR FOOTING, EVERYWHERE WE LOOK.

THESE ARE PRETTY POINTED, EMOTIONAL THINGS FOR THESE LEADERS TO SAY.

>> WELL, LISTEN, THIS IS INHERENTLY EMOTION AM AND SPIRITUAL.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LARGE NUMBERS OF INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS DYING, BUT THIS ALL BEGAN WITH 1,300 ISRAELIS BEING BRUTALLY MURDERED BY A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THAT THEN RETREATED TO GAZA AND USED HUMAN BEINGS AS SHIELDS TO TRY TO AVOID ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND SO, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF HAMAS, AND TO ALSO UNDERSTAND THE MORAL COST TO THE NATION IF HAMAS -- TO THE WORLD, OCEAN KUS EXCUSE ME, IF HAMAS GETS AWAY WITH THIS.

THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HAMAS.

AND SO, I DON'T SUPPORT A CEASE-FIRE, BECAUSE HAMAS HAS MADE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR THAT THEY WILL USE THAT CEASE-FIRE IN ORDER TO REGROUP AND CARRY OUT SIMILAR ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND IT'S A MESSAGE TO OTHER TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS THAT STILL MAY HAVE DESIGNS OF HITTING THE UNITED STATES, THAT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH FUTURE ATTACKS.

SO, WHAT I BELIEVE, THE FIGHT HAS TO CONTINUE AGAINST HAMAS, BUT THE PACE OF THE FIGHT AND THE DECISIONS REGARDING TARGETING HAVE TO CHANGE, AS WELL, TO REDUCE DRAMATICALLY THE NUMBER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING KILLED.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS DIDN'T START ON OCTOBER 7th.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OF THE HISTORY OF WHAT'S HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, IN THIS WHOLE REGION THAT'S BEING TOLD AROUND THIS TERRIBLE CRISIS THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN RIGHT NOW.

BUT CERTAINLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ALSO SAYING, THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME THOUGHT AND PLANNING FOR THE DAY AFTER.

FOR INSTANCE, STILL TRYING TO PLAN FOR THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, WHICH ALSO KING ABDULLAH CALLED FOR.

I SPOKE LAST NIGHT ON THIS PROGRAM TO ONE OF, YOU KNOW, THE PREVIOUS SORT OF ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATORS, THIS IS DANIEL LEVY, WHAT HE'S TELLING ME ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE POSSIBILITY OF COMING BACK TO THE PEACE TABLE AFTER THIS WAR.

>> ISRAEL HAS LARGELY NEGLECTED THE IDEA THAT ONE DOES POLITICS WITH THE PALESTINIANS, ONE DOES SOLUTION-ORIENTED APPROACHES.

AND THEREFORE, IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT TO GET THAT ANSWER IN ANY KIND OF CLEAR FASHION.

NOW, I THINK THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME IS THAT HAMAS WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST.

ITS MILITARY CAPACITY MAY BE DOWNGRADED.

POLITICALLY, IT IS PROBABLY STRONGER THAN BEFORE.

THERE WILL STILL BE A HAMAS.

>> A, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT, BUT B, HOW DO YOU THINK ONE CAN GET AROUND A PEACE NEGOTIATION AFTER THIS?

>> SO, I HOPE HE'S WRONG, BUT PART OF THE REASON WHY I HAVE RAISED THESE CONCERNS, AND YOU ARE RIGHT, I WAS AMONGST THE FIRST IN THE SENATE TO SUGGEST THAT THE CIVILIAN DEATH RATE WAS UNSUSTAINABLE, IS BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT A CASUALNESS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS WHO ARE DYING, THE IMPACT ON INNOCENT PEOPLE INSIDE GAZA, IS A GIFT TO HAMAS, POLITICALLY, THAT IT ALLOWS THEM TO CONTINUE TO RECRUIT AND GROW STRONGER.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE SAW IN AFGHANISTAN, WHEN WE WERE TOO CASUAL, TOO PERMISSIVE, ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THAT WAR ON CIVILIANS.

IT ALLOWS THE TALIBAN TO GROW AND TO BECOME STRONG ENOUGH THAT IT ULTIMATELY COULD DEFEAT OUR EFFORTS THERE.

WE DON'T WANT THAT INSIDE GAZA.

YOUR QUESTION IS A GOOD ONE, AND THERE'S -- IT'S A QUESTION BOTH FOR ISRAEL IN TERMS OF ITS OVERALL NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT A FUTURE PALESTINIAN STATE, AND THE FUTURE OF GAZA ITSELF.

INSIDE GAZA, I DO THINK THAT ISRAEL HAS TO BE THINKING RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT A FOLLOW ON GOVERNANCE STRUCTURE IS.

I DO NOT THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A LONG-TERM ISRAELI MILITARY OCCUPATION, AND SO WHETHER IT'S THE P.A.

OR SOME OTHER GROUP OF NON-HAMAS AFFILIATED POLITICAL LEADERS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PALESTINIAN-LED GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE IF ORDER FOR IT TO BE PERCEIVED AS LEGITIMATE.

AND IT WILL BE UP TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE AS TO WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT THAT FOLLOWS THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT IS ONE THAT IS TRULY INVESTED IN A PALESTINIAN STATE.

THERE WAS SORT OF A BELIEF THAT IF YOU IGNORED THIS QUESTION, THAT IT WOULD JUST GO AWAY.

IT'S NOT GOING AWAY.

THE PALESTINIANS DESERVE A STATE, IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GUARANTEE THE LONG-TERM SURVIVAL OF ISRAEL, AND MY HOPE IS THAT THE ISRAELI PEOPLE WILL CHOOSE WHEN THEY GO TO THE POLLS NEXT, TO ELECT A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL GET SERIOUS ABOUT NEGOTIATING A FUTURE PALESTINIAN STATE NEXT TO AN ISRAELI STATE, NEXT TO A JEWISH STATE.

>> AND IN THE MEANTIME, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SUFFERING, YOU KNOW, FROM THE PERCEPTION OF BEING TOO CLOSE TO WHAT THE U.N. IS CALLING THIS CARNAGE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

POLITICALLY, YOU KNOW, HE'S SUFFERING AMONGST EVEN DEMOCRATS, AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK PEOPLE LIKE XI JINPING, WHO HE'S MEETING WITH TODAY, ARE GOING TO SAY TO HIM, AND WHAT YOU HOPE, IN THIS CASE, IS THE BEST THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED FROM THIS VERY IMPORTANT XI/BIDEN MEETING?

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO STAND WITH ISRAEL.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO GET AN AID PACKAGE THROUGH TO SUPPORT ISRAEL.

I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO CONTINUE TO PRESS FOR THERE TO BE CHANGES IN THE PACE OF THIS CONFLICT, TO PROTECT CIVILIANS.

BUT WHAT IS ALSO TRUE IS THAT THIS CRISIS HAS ONCE AGAIN SHOWED THE CENTRALITY OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP, TO THE EXTENT THAT IRAN HAS CHOSEN NOT TO ENTER THIS CONFLICT, WHICH WAS NOT A FOREGONE CONCLUSION, AT THE BEGINNING, IT'S BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND JOE BIDEN MADE CLEAR TO IRAN THAT THERE COULD BE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES FOR THEM IF THEY ENTERED THE FIGHT AGAINST ISRAEL.

IT HAS BEEN AMERICAN LEADERSHIP THAT HAS STOPPED THIS CONFLICT FROM SPREADING, AND SO, CHINA HOPES, AND XI HOPES, THAT AMERICAN INFLUENCE IS FADING, THAT ULTIMATELY CHINA WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT POWER IN A PLACE LIKE THE MIDDLE EAST.

ISRAEL DIDN'T CALL THE CHINESE TO COME IN AND TRY TO STOP THIS CONFLICT FROM SPREADING.

THE GULF ALLIES DIDN'T RUN TO CHINA TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT A WAY FORWARD.

NO, THEY TURNED TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, I THINK JOE BIDEN WALKS INTO THIS MEETING WITH ANOTHER REMINDER TO XI THAT AMERICA STILL HAS THE STRONGEST SYSTEM OF ALLIES AROUND THE WORLD.

SO, I DO HOPE THEY GET A LIMITED SET OF AGREEMENTS HERE, WHETHER IT BE ON CLIMATE OR FENTANYL OR DEFENSE COMMUNICATION, BUT I THINK THAT THIS HAS BEEN A STRONG ADVERTISEMENT THAT AMERICA IS STILL THE MOST INDISPENSABLE NATION IN THE WORLD.

>> AND JUST FINALLY, ON DOMESTIC POLITICS, BECAUSE THERE'S A WHOLE BROUHAHA ABOUT WHETHER BIDEN SHOULD RUN, WHETHER HE SHOULDN'T, AND WHY HE'S NOT GETTING CREDIT FOR THE ECONOMY, AND YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ME.

SO, HELP ME GRAPHS SHOWING INFLATION DOWN, THE PRODUCER PRICE INDEX ACTUALLY DECLINING, AND YET, STILL POLLS CONSISTENTLY FINDING A COMPLETE LAKE OF CONFIDENCE IN THE PRESIDENT FOR HANDLING THE ECONOMY.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, AMONGST THE AMERICAN VIEWERS.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, LISTEN, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN STRUCTURAL DEFICIENCIES IN THE U.S. ECONOMY, AND SO, WHEN PEOPLE EXPRESS A REAL LACK OF HAPPINESS WITH THE STATE OF AFFAIRS, IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL WAITING FOR A GOVERNMENT WHO WILL COME ALONG AND SORT OF, YOU KNOW, PRESS THE REVERSE BUTTON ON THE NEOLIBERAL ECONOMIC ORDER THAT OUTSOURCED ALL THEIR JOBS TO CHINA AND INA AND IN VES CHINA ANDTED ENORMOUS POWER TO BILLIONAIRES.

JOE BIDEN'S MADE A BIG DOWN PAYMENT ON THAT CONVERSION, BUT THE REWARDS HAVE NOT BEEN RECEIVED YET IN THE AMOUNT THAT INDIVIDUALS WANT.

I DON'T WORRY ABOUT THIS POLLING A LOT, BECAUSE WHEN VOTERS GO TO THE POLLS, WHEN THEY ACTUALLY CAST BALLOTS, THEY ARE OVERWHELMINGLY ELECTING DEMOCRATS.

THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE RESPONSIBLE GROWNUPS ANY LONGER WHO DESERVE TO BE IN CHARGE OF LOCAL, STATE, OR NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, AND SO, WHILE THE LATEST POLLS MAY CAUSE SOME CONSTERNATION, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AS WE SAW JUST LAST WEEK, WHAT VOTERS ACTUALLY SHOW UP TO THE BALLOT BOX, THEY'RE CHOOSING DEMOCRATS, AND THAT, I THINK, WILL STILL BE THE CASE NEXT FALL.

>> SENATOR MURPHY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, ON DEFINITIONS AND TERMINOLOGY.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, A TEAM OF UNITED NATIONS EXPERTS WARNED THAT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE AT, QUOTE, GRAVE RISK OF GENOCIDE.

TODAY, AS WE SEE EVIDENCE OF FRESH HORRORS IN GAZA, WE LOOK TO HISTORY TO HELP US UNDERSTAND.

IN A DOCUMENTARY SERIES CALLED "SCREAM BLOODY MURDER," WHICH FIRST AIRED ON CNN IN 2008, I EXAMINED THE HISTORY OF THE TERM GENOCIDE, FROM ITS ORIGINS IN THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF WORLD WAR I AND THEN TO THE HOLOCAUST.

HIS NAME WAS RAPHAEL LEMKIN.

IN 1944, HE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE NAZIS.

IN IT, HE COMBINED THE GREEK WORD FOR RACE WITH THE LATIN WORD FOR KILLING.

GENOCIDE.

A NEW WORD FOR A CRIME THAT HE WOULD SPEND HIS LIFETIME TRYING TO PREVENT.

LEMKIN'S INTEREST STARTED EARLY, AS HE WROTE AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

>> I STARTED TO DEVOUR BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.

THE APPEAL FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE INNOCENT FOLLOWED ME ALL MY LIFE.

>> AS A TEENAGER, LEMKIN LEARNED THROUGH NEWS ACCOUNTS THAT THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT WAS SLAUGHTERING ITS CHRISTIAN ARMENIAN CITIZENS.

THE GOVERNMENT CLAIMED IT WAS PUTTING DOWN AN ARMENIAN REVOLT.

AND OVER EIGHT YEARS, IT KILLED A MILLION ARMENIAN MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN IN MASSACRES AND FORCED MARCHES.

TO THIS DAY, THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT DENIES A GENOCIDE TOOK PLACE, AND FEW OF THE PERPETRATORS HAVE EVER FACED JUSTICE.

>> I WAS SHOCKED.

WHY IS THE KILLING OF A MILLION A LESSER CRIME THAN THE KILLING OF A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL?

>> RAPHAEL LEMKIN MADE A BOLD PLAN.

HE WOULD CREATE AN INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT WOULD PUNISH RACIAL MASS MURDER.

AND PREVENT IT FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

6 MILLION WERE KILLED IN THE HOLOCAUST, AND I HAVE COVERED MODERN GENOCIDES FROM BOSNIA TO RWANDA.

IT DOES KEEP HAPPENING AGAIN.

SO, WE TURN TO MY NEXT GUEST, OMER BARTOV, AN ISRAELI AMERICAN HISTORIAN, AND A PROFESSOR OF HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE STUDIES AT BROWN UNIVERSITY.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM RHODE ISLAND.

PROFESSOR BARTOV, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU WROTE A REALLY INTERESTING AND I THINK VERY TIMELY AND IMPORTANT ARTICLE ABOUT THIS VERY SUBJECT IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" WHICH CAUGHT MY INTEREST.

SO, I WANT TO FIRST START BY ASKING YOU, THIS IS A HUGE DEBATE NOW ON CAMPUSES ACROSS AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM YOUR STUDENTS, WHAT ARE THEY ASKING YOU, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM ABOUT THIS TERM?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU FOR MANY YEARS AND ADMIRING YOUR WORK.

WHAT I HEAR IS A LOT OF CONFUSION AMONG STUDENTS, AND A LOT OF I'D SAY POLARIZATION, PEOPLE ARE USING THE WORD GENOCIDE A LOT, WITHOUT QUITE KNOWING WHAT IT MEANS.

PEOPLE ARE HORRIFIED BY WHAT THEY SEE AND HEAR THAT IS HAPPENING IN ISRAEL AND GAZA, AND I'VE BEEN TRYING, IN FACT, TO ORGANIZE ALL KINDS OF MEETINGS, WHERE WE SIT AND TALK AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, THE ROOTS OF IT, AS A HISTORIAN, THIS IS WHAT I CAN DO, AND HOW DO WE FIND A WAY TO RESOLVE THIS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF, THE PULLOUT FROM YOUR ARTICLE, IS WHAT YOU SAID, AND IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE TITLE OF MY DOCUMENTARY "SCREAM BLOODY MURDER."

YOU SAID, YOU KNOW FROM HISTORY IT IS CRUCIAL TO WARN OF THE POTENTIAL FOR GENOCIDE BEFORE IT OCCURS, RATHER THAN BELATEDLY CONDEMN IT AFTER IT HAS TAKEN PLACE.

YOU SAY THAT, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU EVER THINK THAT IT'S POSSIBLE TO RAISE AND ACTUALLY STOP IT BEFORE IT TAKES PLACE.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

BUT I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS I DO, THAT THERE HAVE BEEN MANY GENOCIDES OVER THE 20th CENTURY WHERE THERE WERE SIGNS THAT THINGS MIGHT BECOME GENOCIDE, AND FOR VARIOUS REASONS, POLITICAL REASONS, OR PERCEPTION, OR ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS ABOUT THIS, PEOPLE DID NOT WARN SUFFICIENTLY IN ADVANCE, AND ONCE THINGS HAPPEN, IT'S FIRST VERY DIFFICULT TO STOP THEM, AND THEN, AS WE KNOW, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO BRING PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT, AS WELL, SO -- I THINK THAT ONCE SHOULD ALWAYS ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION AND WARN WHEN THERE'S SUFFICIENT SIGNS, BOTH IN TERMS OF HOW PEOPLE SPEAK ABOUT A POTENTIALLY TARGETED GROUP, AND THEN WHAT SORT OF ACTIONS THEY'RE TAKING BEFORE GENOCIDE ACTUALLY BEGINS.

>> SO, I WANT TO TAKE SPECIFICALLY THE CASE THAT -- YOU KNOW, THE WAR THAT WE'RE WITNESSING RIGHT NOW, BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, AFTER WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO, FIRST, LET ME JUST START, IN CALENDAR ORDER.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HAMAS CREATED -- WHAT TO YOU BELIEVE -- WHAT IS THE CRIME THAT HAMAS PERPETRATED WITHIN THE WAR CRIMES BRACKET IN ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th?

>> WELL, IT WOULD APPEAR TO BE CLEAR THAT WHAT HAMAS CARRIED OUT WAS A TERRORIST ACTION, WAS A WAR CRIME, AND I THINK COULD EASILY ALSO BE DEFINED AS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

ADDITIONALLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE HAMAS CHARTER, AND WHAT IT HAS BEEN SAYING, HAMAS WANTS TO REPLACE ISRAEL AS A STATE, WITH AN ISLAMIC PALESTINIAN STATE.

THAT COULD BE DEFINED ALSO AS A GENOCIDAL AIM.

MIGHT SAY THAT THAT ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th HAD GENOCIDAL ASPECTS TO IT, PART OF THAT LARGER SCHEME.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE KILLINGS IN GAZA, WHICH SO MANY PEOPLE ARE NOW BEGINNING TO TALK ABOUT IT AS A GENOCIDE AGAINST -- AGAINST PALESTINIANS.

CAN YOU DEFINE FOR US LEGALLY WHAT YOU SEE AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS HAPPENING?

>> SO, LOOK, FIRST OF ALL, IT SEEMS TO ME, FROM THE INFORMATION WE HAVE AND I'M NOT ON THE GROUND, OF COURSE, I'M JUST WATCHING REPORTS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ON ISRAELI MEDIA AND OTHER MEDIA, IT APPEARS THAT THERE ARE WAR CRIMES HAPPENING, AND, YOU KNOW, WAR CRIMES ARE DEFINED AS SERIOUS VIOLATIONS OF LAWS AND CUSTOMS OF WAR AND INTERNATIONAL ARMED CONFLICT AGAINST COMBATANTS AND CIVILIANS.

AND I THINK THE DISPROPORTION IN THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS KILLED IS SO GREAT THAT THERE'S PROBABLY THE CASE FOR SPEAKING OF WAR CRIMES.

POSSIBLY ALSO OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, WHICH ARE EXTERMINATION OR OTHER MASS CRIMES OF CIVILIAN POPULATIONS.

FOR GENOCIDE, WHAT YOU NEED, ACCORDING TO THE U.N. 1948 RESOLUTION ON THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE, IS TO SAY THAT IT'S THE INTENT OR TO SEE THE INTENT TO DESTROY IN WHOLE OR IN PART A NATIONAL, ETHICAL, OR RELIGIOUS GROUP AS SUCH, THAT IS THAT THE VIOLENCE IS INTENDED, IS INTENTIONAL, OR WITH THE INTENTION OF DESTROYING THE GROUP, A PARTICULAR GROUP, AS SUCH.

NOW, IF WE THINK ABOUT THE CASE THAT IS GOING ON NOW, THERE HAVE BEEN STATEMENTS BY ISRAELI POLITICAL LEADERS, BY ISRAELI MILITARY LEADERS, WHICH HAVE GENOCIDAL ECHOES.

ABOUT FLATTENING GAZA, REMOVING THE POPULATION OUT OF GAZA, TREATING THE PEOPLE THERE AS THE BIBLE INSTRUCTED THE ISRAELITES TO TREAT THE -- TO KILL THE MEN, WOMEN, AND BABIES, SO, THAT INTENT, IN FACT, HAS BEEN EXPRESSED BY ISRAELI LEADERS.

WHETHER THIS IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND, I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT RIGHT NOW THERE IS INTENTIONAL KILLING OF CIVILIANS, BUT THERE IS TOTALLY DISPROPORTIONATE KILLING OF CIVILIANS.

DISPROPORTIONATE IN RELATION TO THE MILITARY GOALS DECLARED BY ISRAEL ITSELF.

SO, IN THAT SENSE, I THINK WE ARE CLOSE, BUT WE'RE NOT THERE YET.

>> SO, IF WE ARE TO COIN YOUR PHRASE NOT THERE YET, WHERE ARE WE?

WHAT IS THE -- THE NEXT LEVEL, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DISPRO PORTION GNAT KILLING, NOT YET -- YOU'RE NOT PREPARED TO CALL IT GENOCIDE YET.

I THINK YOU'VE WARNED THAT IT MIGHT BECOME.

WHAT IS THE MECHANISM, WHAT DOES -- WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN FOR THE LEGAL PARAMETERS TO BE EXTENDED?

>> SO, YOU WERE, IN THAT CLIP, YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE, AND ONE CAN ALSO MENTION THE HOLOCAUST.

THESE ARE GENOCIDES THAT BEGAN WITH ETHNIC CLEANSING.

THEY BEGAN WITH THE INTENT TO REMOVE POPULATIONS FROM AREAS THAT ONE DIDN'T WANT THESE PEOPLE TO LIVE IN.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW IS THE DISPLACEMENT OF ABOUT A MILLION PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS FROM NORTHERN GAZA TO SOUTHERN GAZA.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY CLAIMS IT IS DOING IT FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION FROM MILITARY ACTIVITIES, BUT IN FACT, THEIR HOUSES ARE BEING DESTROYED, SO, YOU HAVE NOW OVER 2 MILLION PEOPLE BEING CRAMMED INTO SOUTHERN PART OF THE GAZA STRIP, WITHOUT ANY INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUSTAIN THAT.

THAT AND STATEMENTS WHICH ARE BEING MADE ABOUT POSSIBLY MOVING THE POPULATION ENTIRELY OUT OF THE GAZA STRIP, THAT CAN EVENTUALLY BE GENOCIDE.

>> WHAT IS IT NOW?

DO YOU THINK IT IS ETHNIC CLEANSING?

YOU SAID -- I, AS I SAID, WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENED IN BOSNIA, STARTED WITH THE WORDS ETHNIC CLEANSING, ENDED UP BEING GENOCIDE IN THE FINAL PROSECUTION OF IT, AND THAT WAS ADJUDICATED AT THE WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL.

>> WELL, I THINK WE -- UNFORTUNATELY, WE WILL EVENTUALLY KNOW, HOPEFULLY THE ACTIVITIES OF THE GROUND NOW CAN BE CHANGED.

AND I WAS LISTENING TO YOUR PREVIOUS INTERVIEW, AND I WOULD SAY THE -- THE PARADIGM OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW HAS TO BE CHANGED.

I DO THINK THAT HAMAS AS A -- IN GAZA IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE.

ONE HAS TO REMOVE IT, IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD.

BUT IF THE ISRAELI POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND OTHER STATES WERE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE NEXT STEP, THAT IS, OF CHANGING THE RELATIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS, AND MOVING TOWARDS SOME RESOLUTION OF THAT CONFLICT, THEN THAT COULD SPELL A DIFFERENT POLICY ALSO ON THE GROUND.

BUT AS IT IS NOW, IT'S ONLY ABOUT DESTRUCTION, AND THAT WILL END UP, IF NOT IN GENOCIDE, IN ANY CASE, IN VAST CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

>> I'M SORRY, I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS ETHNIC CLEANSING?

>> WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE IT, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MOVED IN LARGE NUMBERS FROM ONE PART OF THE GAZA STRIP TO ANOTHER.

THEIR HOMES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

I DON'T SEE HOW THEY COULD COME BACK.

AND WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY IS RIGHT NOW, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO COME BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

THAT WOULD BECOME ETHNIC CLEANSING.

>> YOU MENTIONED INTENT.

AND YOU SAID, EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THESE STATEMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE, YOU DON'T -- YOU CAN'T TELL WHETHER IT'S THE INTENT, AND OBVIOUSLY THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS HAVE SAID IT IS NOT THEIR INTENTION, QUITE THE OPPOSITE, TO HARM OR KILL CIVILIANS.

AND WHEN I'VE ASKED THEM VERY POINTEDLY, DESPITE, YOU KNOW, AN INTELLIGENCE MINISTRY DOCUMENT ABOUT MOVING PALESTINIANS OUT OF GAZA, INTO THE EGYPT SINAI AND TRYING TO OUTSOURCE THEM TO EUROPE AND ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, THEY SAID THAT'S NOT A SERIOUS DOCUMENT, OR IT'S A PRELIMINARY PAPER OR WHATEVER.

SO, I WONDER WHAT YOU -- THE FACT THAT THOSE STATEMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE, EVEN THOUGH -- DO THEY ALONE STAND?

CAN THEY ALONE BE, YOU KNOW, BE ADJUDICATED, THOSE STATEMENTS, OR NOT?

>> I THINK FOR -- IN ORDER TO PROVE GENOCIDE, YOU NEED TWO THINGS.

YOU NEED TO SHOW INTENT, AND THEN YOU NEED TO SHOW THAT THIS INTENT IS ACTUALLY BEING PRACTICED ON THE GROUND.

IT'S BEING IMPLEMENTED.

AND OF COURSE WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING IMPLEMENTED, AND WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE INTENTIONS ARE.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT IN A LARGER FRAMEWORK, CLEARLY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT NOW, THERE'S SOME VERY RADICAL PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT, THOSE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE GOAL IS TO EMPTY THE COUNTRY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE -- THE COUNTRY, I MEAN MANDATORY PALESTINE, SO, IT INCLUDES THE GAZA STRIP AND THE WEST BANK, TO EMPTY IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE OF ITS PALESTINIAN POPULATION AND TO SETTLE IT BY JEWISH SETTLERS.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE SPEAK NOW OF THE WAR IN GAZA AS AN OPPORTUNITY, NOT AS A TRAGEDY, AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO FINALLY IMPLEMENT THEIR OWN POLITICAL GOAL.

SO, AS LONG AS THESE PEOPLE ARE IN GOVERNMENT, THE DANGER OF THAT BEING ETHNIC CLEANSING OR GENOCIDE OR COMBINATION, IS HIGH, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ACTUAL POLITICAL GOAL.

IF THEY REMOVE FROM GOVERNMENT AND IF HAMAS IS REMOVED FROM THE PARADIGM, THEN WE CAN THINK ABOUT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POLITICAL SCENARIO.

>> AND FINALLY, I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK -- IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO BE LOSING SIGHT OF ACTUALLY WHAT'S GOING ON, BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE SEMANTICS OVER NAMING ISSUES.

YOU KNOW, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK USING WORDS LIKE GENOCIDE AND OTHERS KIND OF DEVALUES THEM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, AS A HISTORIAN OF THIS TOPIC?

>> WELL, IT'S TRUE.

GENOCIDE -- THIS IS ONE REASON WHY SOME SCHOLARS ACTUALLY SUGGEST THAT WE STOP USING THE TERM, BECAUSE IT HAS BECOME A TERM THAT IS USED TO DESCRIBE ANYTHING WE FIND ATROCIOUS.

AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO DEFINE GENOCIDE.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE CRIME OF ALL CRIMES, THE WORST CRIME.

BUT IT IS DEFINED IN A PARTICULAR WAY, AND IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WAR CRIMES OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ARE ANY BETTER.

THEY ARE JUST DEFINED DIFFERENTLY.

SO, I DO THINK, WHEN WE GET INTO THE SEMANTICS OF IT, WE MAY LOSE SIGHT OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON ON THE GROUND, WHICH IS APPARENTLY OVER 11,000 CIVILIANS KILLED, THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN.

ON A SCALE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE.

>> PROFESSOR OMER BARTOV, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR >>> AND OUR NEXT GUEST, PALESTINIAN AMERICAN JOURNALIST LAILA EL HADDAD, IS ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT THE TERM GENOCIDE, AND WHAT MIGHT BE HAPPENING.

SHE IS PART OF A LAWSUIT THAT'S BEEN FILED AGAINST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WHICH ALLEGES THAT IT HAS FAILED TO PREVENT IT.

SHE ARGUES THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S RELUCTANCE TO CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE IS NOT ONLY HURTING GAZANS ON THE GROUND, BUT ALSO ARAB AND MUSLIM POPULATIONS LIKE IN AMERICA, WHO ARE SUBJECT TO HEIGHTENING ISLAMAPHOBIA.

AND SHE'S JOINING HARI TO DISCUSS HER EXPERIENCES IN THIS HIGHLY VOLATILE CLIMATE.

THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF, EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM, AND EXTREMISM.

>> CHRISTIANA, THANK YOU.

LAILA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU, ALONG WITH A GROUP OF PALESTINIAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS AND RESIDENTS ARE GAZA ARE NOW IN A LAWSUIT THAT'S FILED AGAINST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR FAILING TO, QUOTE, PREVENT AN UNFOLDING GENOCIDE.

TELL US ABOUT THE LAWSUIT, IF YOU CAN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I'M ONE OF MANY PLAINTIFFS IN THIS LAWSUIT AGAINST PRESIDENT BIDEN, SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN, AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN, AND IT'S JUST ONE, FOR ME, IT'S JUST ONE SMALL THING THAT I'M DOING, THAT I PROMISED MY FAMILY THAT I OWED TO THEM, BOTH MY FAMILY MEMBERS, FIVE DIRECT FAMILY MEMBERS WHO WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI ATTACK ON THEIR HOME WITH U.S.-PROVIDED WEAPONS, THAT I PAID FOR WITH MY TAXES.

IT'S SOMETHING SMALL THAT I CAN DO FOR THEM, AS WELL AS FOR THE SURVIVING FAMILY MEMBERS IN GAZA CITY RIGHT NOW.

TO HOLD MY GOVERNMENT TO ACCOUNT, IN FAILING TO PREVENT THIS ONGOING GENOCIDE AGAINST MY PEOPLE.

>> NOW, AT THE TIME THAT WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS NOT RESPONDED YET TO THIS LAWSUIT, BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID REPEATEDLY IN THE PAST THAT ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A TERROR ATTACK.

WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE U.S. IS FAILING TO UPHOLD INTERNATIONAL LAW?

>> WELL, IT'S -- THE BIGGEST BURDEN OF PROOF, WHICH IS PROVING INTENT TO COMMIT GENOCIDE, HAS BEEN PROVEN FOR US IN NUMEROUS STATEMENTS BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS THEMSELVES, AND OUR GOVERNMENT HERE, THE UNITED STATES, HAS BEEN ABETTING THAT.

ABETTING THE UNFOLDING GENOCIDE THAT HAS ALREADY -- WHOSE INTENT HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVEN, BY WAY OF DIPLOMATIC COVER, BY WAY OF $14 BILLION IN AID, AND BY WAY OF RHETORIC, AS WELL.

SO, WE HAVE THE MILITARY SUPPORT, THE DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT, AND SO ON, THE POLITICAL SUPPORT.

AND SO THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE, SO UNIQUE, SO DIFFERENT THAN OTHER INSTANCES, WHERE THE UNITED STATES HAS PROVIDED UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL.

>> DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

I HEARD THAT YOU DECLINED AN INVITATION?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THERE WAS TWO SEPARATE -- I WAS ASKED TO PARTICIPATE IN A ROUNDTABLE WITH -- WITH MEMBERS OF THE ARAB AMERICAN AND PALESTINIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, I WAS ASKED TO PARTICIPATE IN A LATER ON, AT THE HEIGHT OF THE ATTACKS ON GAZA, AT THE WHITE HOUSE, WHICH I DECLINED.

BECAUSE FRANKLY, IT GOT TO THE POINT WHERE IT WAS FEELING PERFORMATIVE, AND NOT REALLY BEARING ANY REAL RESULTS.

IT WAS JUST SOMETHING THE ADMINISTRATION WAS DOING TO BE ABLE TO ALEH ALLAY FEARS TO SAY, WE HEAR YOU, WE FEEL YOU, BUT THEY DON'T.

AND IT'S -- THE MESSAGE HAS BEEN DELIVERED LOUD AND CLEAR THAT THEY'VE LOST OUR VOTES IN 2024.

AND THESE EFFORTS, FRANKLY, ARE FALLING FLAT AMONGST THE ARAB AND PALESTINIAN AND MUSLIM COMMUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU MET WITH SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN IN A SETTING, IN A FORUM, AND I WONDER, WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SAY TO HIM THAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT HAVE AN EFFECT?

>> THIS WAS VERY EARLY ON IN ISRAEL'S ASSAULT ON GAZA.

AND REALLY, I WAS HOPING TO USE IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONVEY TO HIM HOW I FELT AS A -- HOW WE FELT AS A PALESTINIAN AND A MUSLIM COMMUNITY.

I WANTED TO CONVEY TO HIM, I PROMISED MY COUSINS AND MY FAMILY IN GAZA THAT I WOULD CONVEY THEIR REALITY TO HIM.

MY MAIN MESSAGE WAS THAT ALL WE'RE HEARING, ALL I'M HEARING IS THAT PALESTINIANS ARE BARBARIANS AND BABY KILLERS AND THE UNHUMANS, TO WHICH THE LAW OF WAR DID NOT APPLY, AND THAT MY ADMINISTRATION WAS OKAY WITH THAT.

THAT WAS THE MESSAGE I WANTED TO CONVEY TO HIM, AND I ASKED HIM DIRECTLY, WHAT'S THE BENCHMARK?

HOW MANY PALESTINIANS AND HOW MANY CHILDREN AND WOMEN NEED TO DIE BEFORE YOU ARE OKAY WITH FINALLY CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE?

AND OF COURSE WE DISCUSSED THE FACT THAT THIS WAS NOT SELF-DEFENSE, WHEN 75% OF THE VICTIMS HAVE BEEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THAT IS NOT ONLY GROSSLY DISPROPORTIONATE, THAT'S REPREHENSIBLE, TO CALL IT SELF-DEFENSE AND INSIST THERE'S NO RED LINES FOR ISRAEL IS MORALLY REPUGNANT.

AND THOSE ARE THE MESSAGES WE CONVEYED.

AND AGAIN, THE MAIN ASK WAS THE CEASE-FIRE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE OR A HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PHRASE IT, BECAUSE EVEN IT SEEMS THE PHRASING MATTERS, WHY HAS THAT INHERENTLY BECOME A POLITICAL ACT, OR ONE THAT ADMITS DEFEAT FOR ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER?

>> I KEEP SAYING THAT CEASE-FIRE HAS SOMEHOW BECOME A DIRTY WORD.

THAT YOU SEE OUR POLITICIANS LITERALLY ENGAGING IN, YOU KNOW, VERBAL ACROBATICS, JUST TO BE ABLE TO AVOID SAYING IT, RIGHT?

AND THE MESSAGE THAT WE KEEP GETTING FROM THEM, FROM DIFFERENT LEGISLATORS THAT I'VE PERSONALLY MET WITH AND OFFICIALS, IS THAT OH, IT'S GOING TO BE BAD OPTICS, RIGHT?

IT'S GOING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE CAVING IN, AND, YOU KNOW, BIDEN EVEN USED THAT WORD, HE SAID WE, HE DIDN'T SAY, EXCUSE ME, ISRAEL, DOES THAT MAKE -- IS HE SUGGESTING THAT THE UNITED STATES IS ADMITTING THAT THE UNITED STATES IS COMPLICIT IN THIS?

WHO KNOWS.

BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT THEY CONSIDER A CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE TO BE BAD OPTICS, AS THOUGH SOMEHOW HAMAS WOULD BE WINNING, THAT THEY WOULD BE CAVING.

BUT THE REALITY IS, THE LARGE NUMBER OF ISRAELIS THEMSELVES ARE NOW CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, COMING OUT AND PROTESTING, LET ALONE, YOU KNOW, AMERICANS, AS WELL.

BECAUSE THERE'S NO WINNERS IN THIS.

THERE'S NO WINNERS IN WAR.

>> SO, I WONDER IF, LOOK, YOU'RE AN AUTHOR, YOU KNOW THE POWER OF WORDS AND LANGUAGE, AND CONSIDERING THE EMPHASIS YOU'RE PUTTING ON THE WAY THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS TALKING ABOUT PALESTINIANS AND ABOUT THE CONFLICT, DO CONDEMNATIONS MATTER?

AND DOES IT MATTER IF PRESIDENT BIDEN CONDEMNS THE ACTIONS OF ISRAEL OR FL YOU CONDEMN THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS?

>> I THINK IT SENDS A STRONG MESSAGE, BUT I THINK WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT, AGAIN, IS ACTIONS.

YOU KNOW?

ACTIONS, TO ME, SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

AND THE ACTIONS OF OUR GOVERNMENT SO FAR HAVE BEEN SUB PAR, TO NONEXISTENT.

WE'VE ONLY HEARD OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT YOUR LIVES AS PALESTINIANS SIMPLY MATTER LESS TO US THAN THE LIVES OF ISRAELIS.

AND AGAIN, THAT MESSAGING HAS A DIRECT IMPACT ON OUR COMMUNITIES HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, SHOULD ARAB AMERICANS, MUSLIM AMERICANS, ORGANIZATIONS, BE CONDEMNING THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS, IF THEY WANT THE SAME CONDEMNATION BACK FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TOWARDS THE ACTIONS OF ISRAEL?

DO THOSE MESSAGES MATTER, I GUESS, IS WHAT I'M ASKING?

>> OUR COMMUNITIES HAVE ALWAYS HAD TO ASSUME THE BURDEN OF -- BEFORE EVEN BEING ASKED ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONES AND THEIR FAMILIES, HAVE ALWAYS HAD TO ASSUME THE BURDEN OF CONDEMNATION.

WE SEE -- WE'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

NOT ONLY IN 9/11, BUT LONG BEFORE.

AND I THINK THE QUESTION THAT WE NEED TO ASK IS, YOU KNOW, AND I SHOULD SAY, AND THEY'VE ALWAYS COME OUT AND SAID, NONE OF US CONDONE VIOLENCE.

HUMAN LIFE IS PRECIOUS.

BUT THAT'S ALL ANYONE EVER WANTS TO HEAR FROM US.

THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED, AGAIN, THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN OUR LIVES, OUR PEOPLE, OUR RIGHTS.

THEY'RE JUST HEARING -- THEY'RE JUST INTERESTED IN HEARING US CONDEMN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, JUST SORT OF CONDITION US INTO CONDEMNING.

AND I THINK THOSE TWO THINGS SHOULD NOT BE CONDITIONAL.

>> RECENTLY, THE ORGANIZATION C.A.I.R., WHICH STANDS FOR THE COUNCIL ON AMERICAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS, HAD PUT OUT SOME INFORMATION THAT IS QUITE DISTRESSING, I JUST WANT TO CITE A COUPLE OF THE THINGS.

THEY'VE RECEIVED MORE THAN 1,200 CALLS FOR HELP, THIS IS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WAR THAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, AND THAT'S A 216% INCREASE OVER THE PREVIOUS YEAR.

ESSENTIALLY PEOPLE ARE CALLING INTO THIS ORGANIZATION, TALKING ABOUT ANTI-ARAB BIAS IN THEIR LIVES, AND -- WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

HAVE YOU BEEN EXPERIENCING THIS?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME.

I HAVE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED THIS.

I MYSELF, ALONG WITH MY DAUGHTER, I WAS ATTENDING A RALLY IN ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND, LAST WEEK, WHERE -- VERY PEACEFUL RALLY CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, WHERE DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO US WAS A COUNTERPROTEST THAT WERE SHOUTING AT US.

AND YOU CAN SEE I'M VERY VISIBLY MUSLIM.

THINGS LIKE ANIMALS, BARBARIANS, MURDEROUS MUSLIMS, WE'LL KILL YOUR BROTHERS, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE.

MY OWN DAUGHTER EXPERIENCED THIS WHEN SHE WAS WALKING IN WASHINGTON, D.C. A FEW WEEKS AGO.

SHE ALSO WEARS HIJAB, AND SOMEBODY YELLED AT HER, BABY MURDERER.

SHE HAS FACED SIGNIFICANT PUSH-BACK AT HER SCHOOL HERE IN HOWARD COUNTY, MARYLAND, AS WELL, IN TRYING TO ORGANIZE SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS A WALKOUT TO CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

I'VE RECEIVED HATE MAIL IN MY ACTUAL MAILBOX, CALLING ON ISRAEL TO KILL EVERY EXPLETIVE I DON'T WANT TO SAY WHO GIVES BIRTH, BASICALLY ANY WOMAN WHO GIVES BIRTH TO FUTURE RATS, AND THREATENING WORDS, SAYING TO KILL THEM ALL.

THIS HAS BECOME, UNFORTUNATELY, THE NEW NORMAL, I SHOULD SAY, ABNORMAL, IN OUR LIVES.

WE REMAIN VIGILANT, BUT THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY IS, AT A TIME WHEN I SHOULD BE GRIEVING MY FAMILY AND I'VE LOST SEVERAL FAMILY MEMBERS IN GAZA, DIRECT FAMILY, AS WELL AS DOZENS OF EXTENDED FAMILY, I'M HAVING TO LOOK OVER MY BACK, AND, YOU KNOW, WHILE IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, THE REAL PROBLEM HERE, AGAIN, IS THE WAY THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS GONE ABOUT THIS, AND IT'S A DIRECT RESULT, I WOULD SAY, OF THE DEHUMANIZING AND RACIST RHETORIC THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN USING TO JUSTIFY ITS MASSACRES IN GAZA THAT THEN OUR ADMINISTRATION HERE HAS ESSENTIALLY BEEN PROMOTING, REGURGITATING A LOT OF THESE LIES.

AND THAT HAS A DIRECT IMPACT, EFFECT, ON NOT ONLY MUSLIM AMERICANS AND PALESTINIANS, BUT AS WELL AS ARAB AMERICANS, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, AS WELL, WHO ARE NONE OF THE ABOVE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT MUSLIM AMERICANS END UP BEING THE TARGETS?

>> I THINK THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY IS THAT WHILE HATE ATTACKS AND HATE RHETORIC OF ANY KIND IS REPREHENSIBLE, AND I WANT TO SAY THAT LOUD AND CLEAR, IT'S MY FEELING THAT PALESTINIAN, ARAB, MUSLIM LIVES MATTER LESS TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND ARE THEREFORE NOT HIGHLIGHTED AS MUCH THAN NON-PALESTINIAN, ARAB, AND MUSLIM LIVES.

I THINK THAT A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH OTHERING, RIGHT?

IT'S THIS IDEA, ALSO, THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT A MONOLITHIC GROUP, WHEN I SAY WE, OFTEN WHAT HAPPENS IS, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING, WHEN YOU HAVE -- WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING LIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO GAZA, AND WHEN YOU SEE THIS DEHUMANIZING RACIST RHETORIC BEING ROLLED OUT BY THE ISRAELIS THAT THEN HAS A DIRECT IMPACT ON MEDIA COVERAGE AND DISINFORMATION THAT IS THEN REPEATED BY OUR ADMINISTRATION, THAT HAS A DIRECT IMPACT ON OUR COMMUNITIES HERE.

AND OUR COMMUNITIES COULD BE PALESTINIAN, MUSLIM, OR CHRISTIAN, IT COULD BE ARAB, NONPALESTINIAN, AND THEY COULD BE BROWN, PEOPLE OF COLOR, WHO AREN'T EVEN MUSLIM AT ALL.

I'VE HAD A LOT OF MY FRIENDS FROM THE SOUTH ASIAN COMMUNITY HERE IN MARYLAND, WHO ARE SIKH AND OTHERS, WHO HAVE BEEN AT THE RECEIVING END OF HATE ATTACKS, AS WELL.

AND SO, IT'S THIS OTHERING, I THINK, THAT CONTRIBUTES TO -- TO THIS REALITY THAT YOU MENTIONED.

>> YOU WERE IN THE UNITED STATES AFTER 9/11.

AND IT SEEMS THAT WE'RE GOING OVER SOME OF THOSE SAME ROADS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I WAS HERE DURING 9/11, I WAS ACTUALLY IN BOSTON, AND I WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT, AND THEY WERE TERRIFYING TIMES.

I WON'T LIE.

ESPECIALLY -- ESPECIALLY FOR MUSLIMS WHO WERE NOT U.S. CITIZENS.

IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR EVERYONE, BUT I FELT PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE AS A STATELESS PALESTINIAN, AND WAS MYSELF DETAINED AND THREATENED WITH DEPORTATION TO WHERE, I HAVE NO IDEA, AT SOME POINT WHILE I WAS PREGNANT WITH MY SON IN LOGAN AIRPORT.

I'LL NEVER FORGET THOSE DAYS, EVER.

AND I TELL THAT STORY TO MY CHILDREN OVER AND OVER, TO TEACH THEM TO BE RESILIENT, TO TEACH THEM TO SPEAK OUT, TO TEACH THEM TO SEEK DUE PROCESS.

I ACTUALLY FILED COMPLAINTS AGAINST THE FBI AND THAT BORE FRUIT, IT TAUGHT THEM NEVER TO GIVE UP.

AND I -- THE MESSAGE I GIVE THEM, ESPECIALLY MY DAUGHTER, IS, THE STRUGGLE IS LONG AND IT IS REAL AND IT IS NECESSARY.

SO, DON'T GIVE UP, AND DON'T GET TOO COMFORTABLE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO NOT ONLY SPEAK OUT ON BEHALF OF YOURSELF AND YOUR PEOPLE, BUT ON ANYONE WHO IS THE VICTIM OF A GRAVE INJUSTICE, AND OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY THAT OUR GOVERNMENT HERE HAS PERPETRATED.

AND SO, THAT'S -- THAT'S IN SUMMARY THE MESSAGE I GIVE HER, WITHOUT VICTIMIZING HER IN ANY WAY OR GIVING HER THIS MENTALITY THAT SHE'S SOMEHOW A VICTIM, BUT TO BE VIGILANT, TO BE ALERT, AND TO BE VOCAL, AND TO ADVOCATE FOR HERSELF AND OTHERS.

>> YOU'VE CALLED THIS TIME PERIOD YOUR DAUGHTER'S 9/11.

WHY DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> I THINK THIS REALLY HIT HOME FOR HER FOR THE FIRST TIME, MEANING WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO GAZA, AND TO HER FAMILY IN GAZA, AND HOW THAT WAS DIRECTLY RELATED TO HERSELF HERE AS A YOUNG PALESTINIAN, VISIBLY MUSLIM AMERICAN.

AND SO I CALL IT HER COMING OF AGE MOMENT IN THE SENSE THAT SHE WAS SUDDENLY IN THE THROES OF ALL OF THIS, AT THE RECEIVING END OF HATEFUL VITRIOL THAT WAS BEING HURLED AT HER, AT THE RECEIVING END OF INTIMIDATING TACTICS AS SHE WAS TRYING TO DO SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS CALL FOR AN END TO HOSTILITIES, AND SHE COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING, AND I -- YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO TELL HER, WELL, WELCOME TO THE CLUB, BUT THAT'S WHY I CALL IT HER COMING OF AGE MOMENT.

SHE SUDDENLY REALIZED, THIS IS REAL, AND THERE ARE REAL THREATS, AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL SAY THINGS TO HER THAT ARE MEAN AND HATEFUL AND TRY TO SILENCE HER WHEN SHE SIMPLY TRIES TO SPEAK OUT IN SUPPORT OF FREEDOM AND EQUALITY FOR HER PEOPLE.

SO, THIS IS THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY WE LIVE IN, BUT AGAIN, IT'S -- IT'S A MOMENT THAT I HOPE SHE WILL LEARN FROM, AND, YOU KNOW, A TEACHABLE MOMENT.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT IT HAD TO COME IN THIS WAY, AND I DON'T WISH THAT UPON ANYONE, OBVIOUSLY.

>> LAILA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> IT WAS MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

>>> AND WE COVER THE TROUBLING RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM AROUND THE WORLD ON THIS PROGRAM, OF COURSE.

AND WE WANT TO TRY TO USE THIS PLATFORM TO BE A CONSTRUCTIVE PLACE OF SOLUTIONS AND TO SHOW OUR COMMON AND SHARED HUMANITY.

WE WANT TO TRY TO GET BEYOND THE FEAR, THE HATE, AND THE TRIBALISM.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, NEW ZEALAND HAS CHOSEN IT'S BIRD OF THE CENTURY, AFTER A SPIRITED CAMPAIGN BY AN UNLIKELY FOREIGN INFLUENCER.

SPORTING A GIANT ORANGE COSTUME, TALK SHOW HOST JOHN OLIVER LED THE PUTEKETEKE TO VICTORY.

AFTER FINDING A LOOPHOLE THAT ALLOWED ANYONE IN THE WORLD TO CAST A VOTE.

>> TO CAMPAIGN FOR IT, WE PUT UP ADS IN NEW ZEALAND, PARIS, MUMBAI, TOKYO, AND LONDON.

WE FLEW A BANNER OVER A BEACH IN BRAZIL AND NATURALLY PUT UP A BILLBOARD IN WISCONSIN.

AND IT SEEMS OUR PROMOTION WORKED.

>> OLIVER'S EFFORTS SMASHED VOTING RECORDS AND ELBOWED OUT THE KIWI, WHICH IS NEW ZEALAND'S NATIONAL BOARD FROM THE TOP SPOT, WHICH RUFFLED A FEW FEATHERS THERE.

THE CONTEST AIMS TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THREATS TO NEW ZEALAND'S NATIVE BIRDS, AND WITH FEWER THAN 1,000 REMAINING IN THE COUNTRY, THE PUTEKETEKE IS A WORTHY WINNER.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.