>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," AS THE CITY'S NEWLY SWORN-IN MAYOR SHOWS-- THE FACE OF BOSTON, AND MASSACHUSETTS AS A WHOLE, IS CHANGING.

A NEW REPORT FINDS MORE PEOPLE THAN EVER IDENTIFY AS MULTI-RACIAL OR MULTI-ETHNIC.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR STATE?

THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE GROUP BEHIND THAT REPORT-- THE BOSTON FOUNDATION'S LEE PELTON-- JOINS ME AHEAD.

THEN, LATER, AS COVID CASES AROUND THE REGION ARE ON THE RISE ONCE AGAIN, SOME EXPERTS ARE RACING TO MAKE SURE WE NOT ONLY HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEAL WITH THE CURRENT PANDEMIC, BUT TO GET AHEAD OF THE NEXT INEVITABLE OUTBREAK AS WELL.

BOSTON UNIVERSITY EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND PHYSICIAN SANDRO GALEA JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK, "THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME."

A HINT-- IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT HEALTHCARE!

>> BRAUDE: SHORTLY AFTER NOON TODAY, BOSTON SAID GOODBYE TO ONE GROUNDBREAKING MAYOR AND HELLO TO ANOTHER: >> THIS NEW DAY HAD BEEN DAWNING FOR A WHILE, AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAD HELPED TO USHER IT IN.

>> WHEN WE CONNECT THE POWER OF CITY GOVERNMENT TO THE FORCE OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND COMMUNITIES, WE SEE HOW MUCH IS POSSIBLE FOR OUR CITY.

WE HAVE SO MUCH WORK TO DO, AND IT WILL TAKE ALL OF US TO GET IT DONE.

SO, LET'S GET TO WORK.

>> BRAUDE: MAYOR MICHELLE WU IS NOT ONLY THE FIRST WOMAN AND FIRST PERSON OF COLOR ELECTED AS BOSTON'S MAYOR, HER TWO YOUNG KIDS ARE AMONG A FAST-GROWING GROUP IN THE REGION OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY AS MULTI-RACIAL.

AS EVIDENCED BY A NEW REPORT OUT TODAY FROM THE BOSTON FOUNDATION, ABOUT THE STATE'S LARGE MULTI-RACIAL AND MULTI-ETHNIC POPULATION.

OF NOTE, THE SECOND AND THIRD TOP-VOTE-GETTERS IN THE MAYORAL RACE, ANNISSA ESSAIBI GEORGE AND ANDREA CAMPBELL ARE ALSO MEMBERS OF MULTI-RACIAL FAMILIES.

AND BEYOND BOSTON, MULTI-RACIAL REPRESENTATION IN POLITICS HAS CERTAINLY BEEN GROWING.

MOST NOTABLY, VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS AND FORMER PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, ALSO A FORMER RESIDENT OF GREATER BOSTON, SOMERVILLE, TO BE EXACT.

ACCORDING TO THE BOSTON FOUNDATION REPORT, IN THIS REGION, THE MULTI-RACIAL POPULATION HAS MORE THAN DOUBLED OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, FROM AROUND 112,000 TO NEARLY 250,000.

AND TODAY, ONE IN FIVE BABIES BORN IN THE STATE IS OF MIXED RACE OR ETHNICITY.

I'M JOINED NOW THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE BOSTON FOUNDATION, LEE PELTON.

LEE, GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> YEAH, GREAT TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, IN THE FINAL SEGMENT OF THIS REPORT, I WANT TO READ TO YOU WHAT KNOCKED MY SOCKS OFF.

CENSUS BUREAU MADE MULTI-RACIAL PROJECTIONS FOR 2060 THAT WERE ALREADY SURPASSED IN 2020.

ASSUMING THAT'S NOT A TYPO, DID THAT SURPRISE YOU?

>> WELL, IT DID SURPRISE ME.

I MEAN, THAT'S -- THAT'S A PRETTY BIG MISS BY THE DEMOGRAPHERS AT THE CENSUS, BUT I THINK WE ALL KNEW AND RECOGNIZED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THAT THE MULTI-RACIAL POPULATION IN BOSTON AND GREATER BOSTON AND ELSEWHERE WAS INCREASING, AND NOT ONLY IN URBAN AREAS, BUT ALSO IN AREAS OUTSIDE OF URBAN SETTINGS.

AND AS YOU SAID, THE MULTI-RACIAL POPULATION IN BOSTON INCREASED BY 50% FROM ABOUT 24,000 TO 37,000, AND IN BOSTON IT INCREASED -- GREATER BOSTON, IT INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY, MORE THAN DOUBLED, ACTUALLY, FROM ABOUT 111,000 TO 250,000.

SO IT HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANT.

>> Braude: AND THE MULTI-RACIAL BURST, THIS ALSO KNOCKED MY SOCKS OFF, EXCEED THE COMBINED NUMBER TO HAVE THE BURSTS -- BIRTHS OF BLACK AND LATINO KIDS.

WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT THIS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK WE'VE TENDED TO TRY TO PLACE PEOPLE IN ONE BUCKET, AND THIS SHOWS JUST HOW OUTDATED THOSE EFFORTS ARE, AND THAT BASICALLY IN EVERY CASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CHECKING WHITE, BLACK OR ASIAN ON THEIR CENSUS FORM, IN COMBINATION WITH ANOTHER RACE, IS, GET THIS, GROWING MUCH FASTER THAN THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO ONLY CHECK WHITE, BLACK OR ASIAN.

SO OUR ASIAN POPULATION IS GROWING, OUR LATINX POPULATION IS GROWING, BUT THE POPULATION WHO IDENTIFY AS MORE THAN ONE RACE IN ETHNICITY IS GROWING FAR FASTER.

AND IT DOES MATTER, YOU KNOW, IT DRIVES OUR NARRATIVES IN BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE WAYS.

SOME OF US, LIKE MYSELF, CAN CELEBRATE THIS UNIQUELY AMERICAN RECOGNITION OF OUR DIVERSITY, AND I DO SO AT A VERY PERSONAL LEVEL, BUT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO TRY TO PUSH A NARRATIVE OF OUR LOSS AS, YOU KNOW, WHITE, CHRISTIAN, HERITAGE, IN A WAY THAT BOLSTERS RACISM AND COMPANYO PHOBIA -- XENOPHOBIA AND SO ON, AND IT SHOWS HOW WE FIT TOGETHER IN WAYS THAT ARE PERSONAL AND CAN BE CHALLENGING FOR US AS INDIVIDUALS AND CULTURE.

>> Braude: DO WE FIT TOGETHER BETTER THE MORE MULTI-RACIAL THE SOCIETY GETS?

IN PARTICULAR, YOUR REPORT TALKS ABOUT THE ONE DROP RULE, WHICH YOU CAN DESCRIBE IN A MINUTE.

IS THERE AS MUCH RACISM DIRECTED AT A BLACK MEMBER OF A MULTI-RACIAL COUPLE OR THE CHILD OF A MULTI-RACIAL COUPLE, HIM OR HERSELF, THAN THERE IS IN AN INDIVIDUAL BLACK IN OUR SOCIETY?

>> JIM, I DON'T KNOW THAT.

I DO KNOW THAT -- AND I THINK IT WAS PEW THAT DID A STUDY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW, YOU KNOW, WHITE FOLKS, FOR INSTANCE, ARE JUST -- NATIONALLY, THE APPROVAL FOR WHAT WE CALL MIXED MARRIAGES, AT ONE POINT, I BELIEVE -- AND THIS WAS NOT TOO LONG AGO, I THINK IT WAS IN 1990, THAT THIS APPROVAL WAS A DOUBLE DIGITS, I THINK APPROACHING ALMOST 90%.

>> Braude: REALLY.

UT 20 YEARS LATER, THAT NUMBER WAS IN SINGLE DIGITS AND LESS THAN TEN%.

SO IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE'S A GROWING, YOU KNOW, FOR YOUR TRUST, THE PEW RESEARCH ARM, IT SUGGESTS THERE'S A GROWING TOLERANCE IF NOT A GROWING EMBRACE OF INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE AND THEIR OFFSPRING.

>> Braude: AND ONE DROP RULE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, IN SOUTHERN STATES DURING SLAVERY, ONE DROP OF, I GUESS THEY'D SAY, BLACK BLOOD MEANT YOU WERE BLACK.

HOW DOES THIS AFFECT SEGREGATION IN OUR CITY?

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT HOUSING SEGREGATION WHERE WE LIVE.

THEN WE LEARNED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO OF A REPORT OUT OF HARVARD ABOUT HOW SEGREGATED WE ARE, ALSO, IN OUR DAILY TRAVELS, IN OUR DAILY MOVEMENTS.

IS YOUR SENSE THAT THIS GROWING MULTI-RACIAL NATURE AND MULTI-ETHNIC NATURE OF OUR COMMUNITY WILL CHANGE THAT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WILL, IN FACT.

I THINK THAT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT -- WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VARIOUS CATEGORIES NOW.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF HOW IT SHAPES AND WE FIT TOGETHER.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE THE PERSONALLY OF PEOPLE WHO ONLY CHECK WHITE, BOSTON IS A MAJORITY MINORITY CITY, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE THE PERCENTAGE OF FOLKS WHO CHECKED WHITE ALONE OR IN COMBINATION WITH ANOTHER RACE, MORE THAN HALF THE CITY CHECKED THE WHITE BOX.

SO THE QUESTION IS, IS THE BLACK POPULATION GROWING?

IS BOSTON REALLY A MAJORITY MINORITY?

AND IT RAISES THESE COMPLEX QUESTIONS.

ACTUALLY, I, FOR ONE, PERSONALLY, WELCOME THE COMPLEXITY OF THESE QUESTIONS AND THE ANSWERS AND HOW WE SEE EACH OTHER BECAUSE I THINK THAT REALLY GETS TO THE HEART OF, YOU KNOW, WHO WE ARE AND OUR COMMON HUMANITY.

>> Braude: YEAH, I WANT TO RETURN TO WHAT YOU SAID A MOMENT AGO, LEE, ABOUT THE FEAR AND ANGER THIS PROVOKES IN SOME PEOPLE.

I THINK THE MOST RECENT ESTIMATE I'VE SEEN IS THE WHITE POPULATION IN THIS COUNTRY WILL BE A MINORITY SOMETIME IN THE 2040s IF THE SOCIAL SCIENTISTS ARE RIGHT, AND IN A COUNTRY WHERE 70-PLUS MILLION PEOPLE EMBRACE A GUY WHO WAS A NATIVIST, A BIRTHERRIST, A RACIST, HOW DO YOU CONQUER THAT FEAR IN THE FACE OF THESE GROWING NUMBERS?

>> WELL, I'M NOT SURE -- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE IF ONE CAN -- I'M NOT SURE HOW SUCCESSFUL WE'LL BE AT THAT.

YOU KNOW, JIM CROWISM WAS AN ATTEMPT TO SEPARATE POOR WHITES FROM POOR BLACKS AFTER RECONSTRUCTION, AND IT WORKED.

IT ALLOWED WHITE PEOPLE TO SAY, WELL, I MAY BE POOR, BUT AT LEAST I AIN'T BLACK.

SINCE THEN, YOU KNOW, WE'VE USED THIS DIVISIONAL TROPE FOR SOME TO SUCCESS, AND DONALD TRUMP USED IT REALLY WONDERFULLY.

YOU KNOW, HE USED IT IN A WAY THAT WOULD DIVIDE WORLD-CLASS BLACK PEOPLE FROM WORKING CLASS WHITE PEOPLE.

SO YOU WOULD HAVE -- I ASKED THIS QUESTION, WHAT MYTH, WHAT COMPELLING MYTH OR WHAT MYTHS WOULD COMPEL A PERSON OR THAT A PERSON WOULD VOTE FOR A PRESIDENT WHO IS GOING TO TELL YOU THAT HE'S GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR HEALTHCARE?

I MEAN, THAT'S HOW POWERFUL THIS DIVISION MYTH IS BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY WHITE AMERICANS WHO VOTED AND STILL WHO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP, BUT MANY OF HIS POLICIES ARE NOT IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS.

SO THAT FEAR -- YOU KNOW, AS I TELL MY KIDS, YOU KNOW, FEAR AND IGNORANCE, IT'S A TOXIC, TOXIC TOXIC -- IT'S A TOXIC DRINK.

>> Braude: LEE, YOU CO-WROTE AN OP-ED, I THINK IT WAS IN SEPTEMBER, IN PART YOU SAID BOSTON CONTINUES TO BE A TALE OF TWO CITIES.

ARE YOU MORE HOPEFUL ABOUT IT ULTIMATELY BEING ONE CITY AFTER THE SWEARING IN TODAY OF THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR TO EVER LEAVELEAD THE CITY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I KNOW MICHELLE WELL, AND SHE HAN -- SHE RAN A GREAT CAMPAIGN, SHE'S BEEN RUNNING IT FOR SEVERAL YEARS, AND SHE'S GOING TO BE A MAGNIFICENT MAYOR.

BUT THERE IS NO SINGLE ELECTED OFFICIAL WHO CAN, WHEN THEY TAKE OFFICE, SOLVE ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT CONFRONT US, AND, SO, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY, YOU KNOW, WEIGHTY, COMPLEX, SOCIOECONOMIC, ETHNIC AND RACIAL ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, AND, SO, HISTORY WILL REALLY -- HISTORY WILL BE THE ARBITER OF HOW THIS ADMINISTRATION ADDRESSES THOSE ISSUES.

WE CAN'T ADDRESS THEM TODAY, BUT WE CAN BE, AS I AM, HOPEFUL FOR HER, YOU KNOW, HER NEW POSITION.

>> Braude: HERE'S HOPING THAT HISTORY MOVES QUICKLY.

LEE PELTON, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE REPORT AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING TIME WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: GREAT TO SEE YOU.

NEXT UP, IT'S A WARNING WE'VE HEARD BEFORE.

AND ONCE AGAIN, IT SEEMS TO BE FALLING ON FAR TOO MANY DEAF EARS.

MEDICAL EXPERTS ARE URGING CAUTION AS WE HEAD INTO WINTER, FEARING YET ANOTHER SURGE IN COVID CASES LIKE THE ONE WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IN EUROPE.

HERE IN THE U.S., OFFICIALS ARE HOPING VACCINE BOOSTERS WILL BE ENOUGH TO AT LEAST LIMIT THE NEXT WAVE-- WITH PFIZER, LAST WEEK, SEEKING F.D.A.

AUTHORIZATION FOR THEIR ADDITIONAL SHOTS FOR ALL ADULTS.

BUT ACCORDING TO DR. FAUCI, THAT'S JUST A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

>> HOW QUICKLY WE GET TO THE END DEPENDS ON US, HOW WELL WE VACCINATE, HOW WELL WE GET BOOSTED AND HOW WELL WE DO THE KINDS OF THINGS TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

SO, THAT'S MY MESSAGE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

>> BRAUDE: HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, HOSPITALS ARE ONCE AGAIN ARE SEEING I.C.U.

UNITS AT CAPACITY AND THAT'S NOT JUST DUE TO COVID.

BUT IT IS A PARTIAL RESULT OF PEOPLE SPENDING THE LAST 18 MONTHS IGNORING REGULAR CHECKUPS AND TROUBLING SYMPTOMS, JUST ONE OF THE MANY RIPPLE EFFECTS THIS PANDEMIC HAS HAD.

SO AS WE KEEP TRYING TO DIG OURSELVES OUT OF THIS MESS SOME ARE ALSO TURNING THEIR EYES TO THE NEXT ONE.

AMONG THEM, DR. SANDRO GALEA, WHOSE NEW BOOK IS "THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME."

HE'S ALSO AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND DEAN OF BOSTON UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

HE JOINS ME NOW.

DOCTOR, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU, AS ALWAYS.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: OBVIOUSLY, YOUR TITLE IS BORROWED FROM JAMES BALDWIN'S "THE FIRE NEXT TIME," WHY?

>> THEY SAY IN THE EPILOGUEO TO HAVE THE BOOK, JAMES BALDWIN'S BOOK IS ONE OF THE GREAT BOOKS ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACHEL AND THE IMPACT RACISM HAS ON EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD.

THE BOOK IS ABOUT HOUSING, AIR POLLUTION, IT'S ABOUT INCOME INEQUALITY, IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE NOT HAVING LIVABLE WAGES AND RACISM AND HOW THOSE FORCES CREATED THE CONDITIONS THAT FOUND US IN AN EPIDEMIC AND THOSE FORCES ARE WHAT WE NEED TO TEND TO IF WE INSULATE OURSELVES FROM THE NEXT PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: THE PANDEMIC KILLED THREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION IN THIS COUNTRY, 5 MILLION WORLDWIDE, YET YOUR FIRST CHAPTER IS ABOUT OPTIMISM.

WHAT DO WE HAVE TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT?

>> A LOT.

SOMETIMES WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE LIKE ME ON THE SHOW, YOU LOOK FOR THE BAD NEWS, BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT REACTUALLY ARE LIVING IN THE HEALTHIEST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.

HUMAN LIFE EXPECTSY IS 40 YEARS FOR MOST HUMAN SPECIES BUT IN THE PAST 100 YEARS IT HAS GONE UP TO ROUGHLY 80.

THE REASON I TELL THE STORY IS NOT JUST THROUGH CHEERLEADING BUT TO ASK WHAT IS IT THAT RESULTED IN OUR HEALTH GETTING SO MUCH BETTER BECAUSE WE CLEANED UP OUR CITIES.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, WE HAVE FOOD AND ARE FREE FROM MUCH VIOLENCE THAN BEFORE.

THAT MADE AN ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE.

I SAY IN THE BOOK LET'S LEARN FROM THAT AND ASK OURSELVES WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO MAKE OURSELVES HEALTHIER NOW.

I'M TRYING TO MOVE US AWAY FROM THINKING THE WRONG WAY ABOUT OUR HEALTH.

>> Braude: WE'RE A ROTTEN NATION WHEN IT COMES TO LESSON LEARNING BUT WE'LL RETURN TO THAT IN A MINUTE.

DESPITE THE GOOD NEWS IN THE OPENING OF YOUR BOOK, YOU SUGGEST WE'RE NOT PREPARED FOR THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME.

YOUR PROBLEM IS WE INVEST VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN HEALTHCARE BUT COMPARATIVELY LITTLE IN HEALTH.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> ACTUALLY WHAT IT SAYS, WHICH IS IN OUR CONTEXT, WE SPEND MORE ON HEALTH THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AND WE HAVE WORSE HEALTH AND THE REASON IS WE PUTTO ALL OUR MONEY IN HEALTHCARE, HOSPITALS AND MEDICINES BUT DON'T PUT OUR MONEY IN WHAT MAKES US METHYLY AND THAT'S WHERE WE LIVE, WORK AND PLAY.

THE PANDEMIC WAS AN ENORMOUS TRIUMPH FOR VACCINES AND MEDICINES.

WE GOT THE VACCINES IN RECORD TIME, IN EIGHT MONTHS WHERE NORMALLY IT TAKES US A DECADE.

IN OUR HOSPITALS, WITH EDID WELL IN LOOKING AFTER SICK PATIENTS FOR COVID AS WELL.

THESE ARE THE AREAS WE INVEST IN.

WHAT DID WE DO POORLY IN?

POLITICS, INFRASTRUCTURE, PEOPLE HAVING HOUSES AND JOBS THEY FELT SECURE IN TO PROTECT SELVES FROM COVID.

THOSE ARE THE AREAS WE DID POORLY IN BECAUSE WE'VE UNDERS INVESTED IN THOSE AREAS.

IT WAS A NICE ILLUSTRATION, THE PANDEMIC, IF I MEAN NICE BY SAYING THAT THE AREAS WE INVEST IN, TREATMENT, VACCINES, HOSPITAL CARE.

WE DID TERRIBLY IN ALL THE OTHER AREAS, AND THE PANDEMIC WAS AND STILL IS A TRAGEDY, MORE THAN 700,000 AMERICANS DIED.

THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE AND THAT REFLECTS HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT WE PAY ATTENTION TO THE ORTHOTHINGS, NOT JUST MEDICINE.

>> Braude: MUCH OF MY EARLIER LIFE, I WAS A LOBBYIST AT THE STATE HOUSE IN WASHINGTON AND CONGRESS.

PREVENTION IS NOT PART OF THE LEXICON OF MANY ELECTED LEADERS.

A LITTLE TOO ABSTRACT.

THE RETURN IS NOT IMMEDIATE ENOUGH, I THINK.

BE YOU GIVE A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT FIREFIGHTING.

CAN YOU SHARE THAT?

>> FIREFIGHTING IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.

FIREFIGHTING HAS BEEN WITH THE WORLD A COUPLE THOUSAND OF YEARS.

THE ROMAN EMPIRE CREATED FIRE DEPARTMENTS BECAUSE THEY REALIZED THEIR HOUSES WERE BURNING.

PEOPLE WOULD RUN OUT AND TRY TO PUT A FIRE OUT.

FIFTY YEARS AGO IN THIS COUNTRY A PROMINENT FIREFIGHTER SAID WHAT IF WE AS A FIRE DEPARTMENT PLAYED A ROLE IN PREVENTING FIRES?

WHAT IF WE MADE FIRE CODES AND INSPECTED BUILDINGS TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE SPRINKLERS.

WE HAVE HALF AS MANY PFIZER THAN YEARS AGO.

WE STILL HAVE A FIRE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE WE WANT THAT IF THERE'S A FIRE, BUT SURELY WE CAN AGREE THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE BECAUSE WE HAVE FEWER FIRINGS.

THAT'S WHAT I'M ARGUING IN THE BOOK, LET'S CREATE A WORLD WHEN THE NEXT PANDEMIC HITS WE'RE NOT SITTING DUCKS AND MAKE PREVENTION PART OF SOMETHING WE ACCEPT.

>> Braude: PREVENTION IS ONE WORD.

ANOTHER WORD IS REPARATIONS, AFTER HAVING READ YOUR BOOK.

THAT'S HOW I SEE YOUR AGENDA.

YOU MENTION IT BRIEFLY THERE BUT SEEM TO AVOID IT.

IS THAT INTENTIONAL?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S INTENTIONAL.

I PUBLISHED A PAPER IN THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE WITH MY GOOD FRIEND TALKING ABOUT IN PARTICULAR BLACK REPARATIONS, AND FUNDAMENTALLY WE ARGUE IN THE PIECE AND I SUGGEST IN THE BOOK THAT WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS CLOSE HEALTH GAPS, AND IF HEALTH GAPS RELY ON UNDERLYING GAPS IN ASSETS AND RESOURCES, WELL, YOU HAVE TO FIX THAT, AND TO DO THAT YOU SOMEHOW HAVE TO REPAIR DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN DONE IN THE PAST WHICH IS WHAT REPARATIONS MEAN.

IT'S A WORD THAT HAS BEEN VERY MUCH POLITICIZED BUT I THINK IT HAS A VERY REAL MEANING TO GETTING US TO THE KIND OF HEALTH EQUITY WE TALK ABOUT WE WANT BUT OFTEN OUR WORDS ARE FAR AHEAD OF OUR ACTIONS.

>> Braude: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT TO GET WHERE YOU BELIEVE WE HAVE TO GO, AND I'M ASSUMING THAT ALL THOSE THINGS WOULD LEAD TO BETTER OUTCOMES BUT AS I SAID A MINUTE AGO, WE'RE NOT GOOD LESSON LEARNERS WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTHCARE, WAR, WHEN IT COMES TO ANYTHING.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT CURRENT EVENT IF WE CAN FOR A MINUTE UH.

ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC AS WELL ABOUT WHERE WE CURRENTLY ARE WITH WINTER MONTHS COMING, WITH IMMUNE AT THIS FADING FOR AT LEAST SOME PART OF THE POPULATION, ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE SURGE NEXT TIME?

>> I AM WORRIED BUT I THINK WORRY AND OPTIMISM CAN CO-EXIST.

I THINK I DISAGREE WE'RE NOT GOOD LESSON LEARNERS AND PERHAPS IT COMES FROM A PLACE OF PROFOUND CONFIDENCE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AS AN IMMIGRANT I CAN SAY I'VE SEEN THIS COUNTRY LEARN AND GET BETTER AND I BELIEVE IT ACTUALLY CAN.

IN THE PAST HO, 50 YEARS -- 40, 50 YEARS, ENORMOUS CHANGES IN THE COUNTRY, SOME FOR THE BETTER.

SO I SEE NO REASON WHY WE CAN'T LEARN.

SO I'M OPTIMISTIC.

YOU AND I ARE HAVING THE CONVERSATION.

THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HEALTH EQUITY, ABOUT THE DISADVANTAGE THAT COVID 19 HAS BROUGHT ON PARTICULARLY GROUPS, PARTICULARLY PEEL OF COLOR AND LOW WAGE INNERS IS ON THE FRONT OF THE NEWSPAPER AND FEATURED ON SHOWS LIKE YOURS ALL THE TIME.

IT WASN'T LIKE THAT FIVE YEARS AGO.

THAT MAKES ME OPTIMISTIC.

WE'RE BRINGING THE ISSUES FORWARD, LONG OVERDUE BUT THAT'S OKAY, IT'S GETTING THERE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOUR CHALLENGING ME IN A MINUTE BUT I WANT TO STAY ON CURRENT EVENTS FOR A MINUTE.

ED YOUNG HAS WRITTEN A PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" ABOUT COVID.

THE U.S. BUREAU OF LABOR ESTIMATES THE HEALTHCARE SECTOR LOST NEARLY HALF A MILLION WORKERS SINCE FEBRUARY OF 2020.

A SURVEY RESEARCH COMPANY SAWS 18% OF HEALTHCARE WORKERS QUIT SINCE THE PANDEMIC BEGAN WHILE 12% HAVE BEEN LAID OFF.

I TOTALLY SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR NOTION THAT HEALTH HAS GOT TO BE AT LEAST A CONTEMPORANEOUS PRIORITY.

HOW DOES HEALTHCARE SURVIVE WITH THOSE KIND OF NUMBERS?

>> I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE LEARNING, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, BUT DO YOU KNOW WHY IT SURVIVES?

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SEEING A POTENTIAL IN HEALTH LIKE NEVER BEFORE.

WE DISCUSSED THIS EARLIER.

WE'VE SEEN NATIONALLY 30% INCREASE.

YOU WILL SEE MORE AND MORE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE DOCTORS AND NURSES.

THAT'S A GOOD THING.

THAT'S A REAL POSITIVE.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT'S HARD NOW THAT THERE ARE MANY HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS WHO ARE BINDER OUT AND HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE BURNED OUT AND I SUSPECT WE'RE TAKING THE LONG VIEW.

I THINK WE NEED TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE BURNED OUT NOW BUT WE ALSO NEED TO INVEST IN THE NEXT GENERATION WHO'S GOING TO TAKE US FORWARD.

>> Braude: ONE LAST THING THAT EVEN I WAS OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THAT CONCERNS ME IN TERMS OF CURRENT EVENTS ARE GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE ANTIVIRAL PILLS FROM PFIZER AND MERCK.

ON ONE HAND, IF YOU EXCUSE MY PRESENTATION, IF YOU WERE STUPID ENOUGH TO BE UNVACCINATED, YOU CAN BE SAVED IF YOUR SYMPTOMS -- IF YOU TREAT YOUR SYMPTOMS QUICKLY ENOUGH.

THE BAD NEWS, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, IS IT GIVES EVEN MORE REASON FOR THE UNVACCINATED TO STAY UNVACCINATED BECAUSE THEY CAN BE SAVED DOWN THE LINE.

ISN'T THAT A CONCERN OF YOURS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MORAL HAZARD WITH THESE THINGS, IT'S ALWAYS A CONCERN, BUT FUNDAMENTALLY THE MORE TOOLS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH COVID THE BETTER.

COVID IS GOING TO BE WITH US IN THE LONG TERM.

IT'S GOING TO BE AN ENDEMIC.

WE WANT TO BALANCE THE VACCINES AND THERAPEUTICS FOR US TO CONTROL THE SEVERE MORBIDITY AND DEATH FROM COVID.

ONCE WE DO THAT WE CAN GET ON WITH OUR LIVES EVEN THOUGH COVID IS WITH US.

>> Braude: LET'S RETURN TO YOUR OPTIMISM.

I'LL CHALLENGE IT AND JOIN IT FOR A FINAL THOUGHT.

THIS IS A COUNTRY WHERE EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN IN THE CONGRESS WILL NOT SUPPORT A BILL THAT DOES MANY OF THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TO IMPROVE HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY, NAMELY STRENGTHENS AFFORDABILITY OF HIGHER EDUCATION, AFFORDABLE HOUSING, BRINGS 47 TO 50% OF KIDS OUT OF POVERTY WITH A TAX CREDIT, MAKES CHILDCARE UNIVERSALS AND AFFORDABLE.

IF SO MANY PEOPLE REFUSE TO EMBRACE THOSE THINGS, WHY WOULD THEY EMBRACE EVEN A BROADER AGENDA LIKE YOU'RE PRESCRIBING IN YOUR BOOK?

>> BECAUSE WE HAVE SHOWN TIME AND AGAIN THAT ONCE THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION CHANGES, POLITICS CHANGE, POLITICIANS CHANGE, AND WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, SLOWLY, SLOWLY, AND THE CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING IN 2021, JIM, IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE IN 2015, WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN 2010, AND WE SAW THE COUNTRY CHANGE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE '80s, AND THE COUNTRY IN 1980 WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE COUNTRY IN 1970 AND 1960.

I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT THE COUNTRY IN 2030 WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN 202 IS.

>> Braude: MY PERSPECTIVE, AND THIS IS WHERE I'M OPTIMISTIC, I THINK THE BEAUTY OF YOUR PRESCRIPTION AS I'VE CALLED IT TO DEAL WITH A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS ORDINARILY WE WOULD HAVE TO APPEAL TO THE SELFLESSNESS OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY TO CARE ABOUT OTHERS WHO AREN'T AS FORTUNATE AS YOU AND I ARE, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE GREAT POTENTIAL TO APPEAL.

YOU, GENERICALLY, HAVE GREAT ABILITY TO APPEAL TO THE SELFSHNESS OF AMERICANS BECAUSE, WHEN THEY GET SICK, BECAUSE THESE OTHER CONDITIONS AREN'T ADDRESSED, I GET SICK AND YOU GET SICK.

ISN'T THAT REALLY THE WAY TO SELL THIS?

IT MAY NOT APPEAL TO YOUR SENSE OF MORALITY, BUT ISN'T THAT THE BEST POLITICAL WAY TO SELL THIS AGENDA?

>> I THINK IT'S ONE WAY TO SELL THE AGENDA.

FUNDAMENTALLY, IF WE DON'T LEARN FROM THE PANDEMIC HOW INTERCONNECTED OUR HEALTH IS BECAUSE, AS YOU SAID, JIM, IF YOU GET SICK, IT INCREASES MANY I CHANCES OF GETTING SICK, EVEN IF I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU, I ACTUALLY DON'T WANT YOU TO GET SICK BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MYSELF TO GET SICK.

BUT I THINK PLENTY OF PEOPLE ARE MOTIVATED BY ALTRUISTIC REASONS OR REASONS WITH MORE TO DO.

BUT OTHERS ARE MOTIVATED BY SELF-CENTERED REASONS.

ALL TO HAVE THE REASONS POINT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT THE PANDEMIC IS SURELY A MOMENT WHERE NOW IS THE TIME TO LEARN THIS LESSON, AND THE REASON I FRAMED THE BOOK, "THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME," THIS TEACHABLE MOMENT, HOW DO WE PUT IN PLACE WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE DONE 5, TEN, 20 YEARS AGO TO PREVENT US FROM THE LARGE IN THE NEXT PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT, DOCTOR, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: THE BOOK AGAIN IS "THE CONTAGION NEXT TIME."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

CANNABIS COMMISSION CHAIR, STEVE HOFFMAN, AND FORMER MEMBER, SHALEEN TITLE, JOIN ME TO TALK EQUITY-- OR LACK THEREOF-- IN THE STATE'S RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA INDUSTRY, FIVE YEARS AFTER VOTERS APPROVED LEGALIZATION.

PLUS, THE NEW HEAD OF THE STATE'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS ASSOCIATION, ON HOW HE PLANS TO HANDLE THE ACCUSATIONS OF MISCONDUCT ON MULTIPLE TEAMS AND PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING IN THE FUTURE.

AND COMEDIAN JIMMY TINGLE ON THE ANNUAL HUMOR FOR HUMANITY FUNDRAISER.

THEN, BE SURE TO TUNE IN FRIDAY, AS WELL, FOR MUCH MORE ON THE HISTORIC TRANSITION TO BOSTON'S NEWEST MAYOR, MICHELLE WU.

AND THEN, PLAN TO TUNE IN WITH MARGERY EAGAN AND ME A WEEK FROM TODAY, FOR OUR VERY FIRST "ASK THE MAYOR" OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, WHEN MICHELLE WU WILL JOIN US TO TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS.

THAT'S TUESDAY THE 23RD, ON GBH RADIO 89.7 AND ONLINE AT GBHNEWS.ORG.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org