>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIR JENNIFER HORN, A NEVER-TRUMPER, AND FORMER REPUBLICAN MASSACHUSETTS TREASURER JOE MALONE, ONCE A BIG-TIME TRUMPER, JOIN ME ON THE ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE MAN WHO URGED AN OVERTHROW OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, ELECTION-DENIER IN CHIEF-- DONALD TRUMP.

PLUS, THE INIMITABLE CHRISTOPHER MUTHER JOINS ME WITH HIS LATEST TRAVEL EXPERIENCES, INCLUDING BEING ON WHAT HE LIKENED TO A PRISON CELL ON AMTRAK'S SILVER METEOR.

PLUS, A STERN WARNING ABOUT THE IMPENDING DEMISE OF VACATIONS AS A WHOLE, COURTESY OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> Braude: IT'S OFFICIAL.

THE LONG-EXPECTED ANNOUNCEMENT HAS COME.

>> IN ORDER TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AND GLORIOUS AGAIN, I AM TONIGHT ANNOUNCING MY CANDIDACY FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AMERICA'S COMEBACK STARTS RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: BUT A COMEBACK TO WHAT EXACTLY?

THE LIKES OF WHAT WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th, WHEN PEOPLE ATTEMPTED TO TOPPLE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AT DONALD TRUMP'S BIDDING?

BECAUSE THAT EVENT, AND THE ASSOCIATED IMAGES, NEED TO BE MENTIONED AND SHOWN EVERY SINGLE TIME THIS CANDIDACY IS BROUGHT UP.

JUST AS N.P.R.

DID WITH THEIR TWEET LAST NIGHT: "BREAKING: DONALD TRUMP, WHO TRIED TO OVERTHROW THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND INSPIRED A DEADLY RIOT AT THE CAPITOL IN A DESPERATE ATTEMPT TO KEEP HIMSELF IN POWER, HAS FILED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN IN 2024."

EVERY WORD IS PERFECT AND ACCURATE.

ALTHOUGH, I MIGHT HAVE ADDED A FEW DETAILS ABOUT HIS BEING TWICE IMPEACHED... SAYING HIS OWN VICE PRESIDENT DESERVED TO BE HANGED.

THAT THING ABOUT THERE BEING "FINE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES" AND A FEW OTHER RELATED ISSUES.

BUT MUSK STILL HASN'T LIFTED TWITTER'S CHARACTER LIMIT.

THANKFULLY, THERE ARE NO SUCH LIMITS HERE.

SO FOR MUCH MORE, I'M JOINED BY JENNIFER HORN, FORMER CHAIR OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND ONE OF THE CO-FOUNDERS OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT, A POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE FORMED BY A GROUP OF PROMINENT REPUBLICANS AND FORMER REPUBLICANS WORKING TO DEFEAT TRUMPISM IN THE G.O.P.

; AND JOE MALONE, FORMER REPUBLICAN MASSACHUSETTS TREASURER.

JOE AN JENNIFER, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH, THANKS FOR BEING HERE, JENNIFER WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE SPEECH.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: THANKS.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS SURPRISINGLY LOW ENERGY.

I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS BIZARRE, DARK, DIDN'T SOUND AT ALL TO ME LIKE SOMEBODY WHO SAW WHAT WAS GREAT AND IN HIS WORDS GLORIOUS ABOUT AMERICA.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS EVERYTHING ABOUT IT WAS LESS THAN, YOU KNOW, UNDERWHELMING.

FEWER PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE THING WAS JUST BIZARRE, A BALLROOM AT A FLORIDA RESORT INSTEAD OF A RALLY WITH 10,000 PEOPLE.

I MEAN YOU GO THROUGH A MILLION LITTLE POLITICAL SETUP DETAILS ABOUT IT THAT WERE JUST WRONG AND DARK AND UNDERWHELMING.

>> Braude: SO YOU HAVE DONE A COUPLE ANNOUNCEMENTS IN YOURSELF IN YOUR CAREER, JOE MALONE, WHAT DID YOU THINK.

>> MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN WHAT I THOUGHT, PEOPLE I'M TALKING TO, REPUBLICANS, THEY KEEP SAYING IF HE HAD CONDUCTED HIMSELF THAT WAY FOR THE STRETCH THAT HE WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE VERSUS BEING SO BOMBASTIC AND SO MUCH IN THE ATTACK MODE, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING REELECTED.

>> Braude: WHAT DID YOU SAY BACK TO THEM.

>> MY RESPONSE WAS I THINK HE IS TAKING ADVICE, AT LEAST TEMPORARILY THAT HIS OLD APPROACH WASN'T WORKING.

TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> Braude: ONE APPROACH FROM HIS OLD APPROACH THAT WAS EMBRACED LAST NIGHT IN HIS NEW APPROACH TO USE YOUR FRIEND'S LINE, WAS THERE WAS AN ENDLESS SUCCESSION OF LIES.

NOT CLOSE LIES, NOT OPINION, NOT RHETORIC.

IMMENSE LYING.

DOES THAT BOTHER PEOPLE?

OR DO THEY JUST SAY WELL, THAT'S WHO TRUMP.

IS ELYS.

GET OVER IT.

>> I THINK AMERICANS REGARDLESS OF THEIR PARTY HAVE GOTTEN USED TO POLITICIANS STRETCHING THE TRUTH, LYING AND I THINK BIDEN IS VERY MUCH A PART OF THAT.

YOU KNOW-- .

>> Braude: DID YOU EVER LIE LIKE DONALD TRUMP DID LAST NIGHT.

>> NO.

>> Braude: I MEAN THE OCEAN IS GOING TO RISE 1/8 OF AN INCH IN 2 TO 300 YEARS WHEN IN FACT THE NATIONAL OCEAN SERVICE, SAYS IT IS GOING TO RAISE 10 TO 12 INCHES IN 30 YEARS.

THAT SAY PRETTY BIG DEAL, DO YOU KNOW.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JOE BIDEN KNEW NOTHING ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN.

>> Braude: WE DON'T DO THAT WHAT ABOUT HERE, MY QUESTION IS DOES THAT TROUBLE YOU?

>> I THINK WASHINGTON POLITICIANS HAVE GOTTEN VERY USED TO LYING AND TRUMP IS NOT AN EXCEPTION.

>> Braude: J DO YOU THINK TRUMP IS RUNG, JOE MALONE.

>> I THINK A LOT OF IT IS ABOUT HIS OWN WILL AND CALL IT EGO, CALL IT ANYTHING BUT I DO THINK THAT WHEN HE'S ATTACKING DESANTIS, WHEN DESANTIS HAS GOT TWO WEEKS TO GO UNTIL THE ELECTION, FOR THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, IT SHOWS YOU HE THINKS TOO MUCH ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AS OPPOSED TO SOMETHING BIGGER.

>> Braude: MY ANALYSIS, JENNIFER, AS TO WHY HE IS RUNG AND OBVIOUSLY I DON'T KNOW, IS WHEN AND IF HE IS INDICTED BY MERRICK GARLAND OR IN GEORGIA, WILL SAY I WAS ONLY INDICTED BECAUSE I AM A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, THAT THEY FEAR IS GOING TO WIN AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE INVESTIGATION HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE MADE THE DECISION?

>> WELL, FIRST LET ME JUST RESPOND TO SOMETHING VERY QUICKLY THAT YOU GUYS WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT A SECOND AGO.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> IT WAS LIE UPON LIE UPON LIE AND JOE'S RIGHT.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE SORT OF REACHED A POINT WHERE THEY ARE JUST SORT OF LIKE OH MY GOD, THESE GUYS ARE ALL LYING.

BUT IT'S SO BAD.

IT'S SO DANGEROUS.

AND DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T LIE ABOUT I'M GOING TO CUT TAX 2-S% AND DOESN'T TRY TO CUT THEM AT ALL.

THIS MAN INSPIRED AND FUELED AN INSURRECTION AGAINST AMERICA.

HE INSPIRED VIOLENCE AGAINST HIS OWN VICE PRESIDENT PEOPLE DIED IN THAT ATTEMPTED COUP.

NOBODY SHOULD EVER BRUSH OFF DONALD TRUMP'S ATTEMPTS AT THE PRESIDENCY AS JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER GUYS.

HE IS NOTHING LIKE THE OTHER GUYS.

HE IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

>> Braude: FORGOT FORGET THE WHY QUESION, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO WHAT JENNIFER SAID AND HOW DO YOU SPEAK TO YOUR REPUBLICAN FRIENDS, YOUR RESPONSE TO THE INSURRECTION.

>> I WILL SAY THIS, I VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP TWICE.

I HAVE A REAL PROBLEM WITH JANUARY 6th IN TERMS OF HIS NOT ONLY THAT IT WAS A BLACK MARK ON AMERICA, BLACK MARK ON HIS PRESIDENCY, BUT IT WAS ALSO A CASE THAT HE HE IS DAMAGED GOODS NOW.

WHEN YOU SEE SOMEONE LIKE DE SABTIST WHO I THINK IS GOING TO BE A FABULOUS CANDIDATE, WHY NOT GO WITH HIM AS OPPOSED TO SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THE JOB OF WINNING THE WHITE HOUSE BACK TO THE REPUBLICANS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

>> Braude: SO ARE YOU DONE WITH TRUMP?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM.

AND I WOULD GO ONE STEP FURTHER, TO SAY I THINK THIS PRESIDENT, NEEDS TO BE REPLACED AND REPLACED QUICKLY.

I MEAN HE'S A GUY WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE COGNITIVE SKILLS-- .

>> Braude: WE'LL TALK ABOUT JOE BIDEN NEXT TIME.

>> MY POINT IS I WANT TO SEE A REPUBLICAN GET ELECTED.

>> Braude: WERE YOU GOING TO SAY SOMETHING, JENNIFER.

>> LOOK, I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR JOE.

BUT THIS IS EXACTLY-- EXACTLY.

>> Braude: JOE BIDEN OR JOE MALONE.

>> JOE MALONE.

>> Braude: OKAY, FINE.

>> AND JOE BIDEN, LET ME TELL YOU.

AND JOE BIDEN BUT WHAT JOE MALONE IS TALKING ABOUT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS GOING TO TRY TO PACKAGE THIS AS TRUMP WAS GREAT WHEN WE HAD HIM.

TIME TO MOVE ON TO DESANTIS.

IS DESANTIS REALLY THE BETTER GUY OR IS HE JUST DONALD TRUMP IN A MORE REFINED PACKAGE.

YOU KNOW, UNTIL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY COMPLETELY REJECTS TRUMPISM AND BANISHES THE WHOLE ANTI-DEMOCRACY WING OF THE PARTY, AND IT DOESN'T MATTED FER IT IS RON DESANTIS OR DONALD TRUMP OR NIBBLES, OR KEVIN McCARTHY OR MITCH McCONNELL TRK IS THE SAME POSITION, THE SAME DANGER WE ARE PRESENTED AS A NATION.

>> BEYOND THE TRUMPISM AS YOU CALL T RON DESANTIS THERE ARE OTHER HUGELY POPULAR GOVERNORS AT HOME.

ONE OF THEM WAS THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, JEB BUSH.

AND ON THE NATIONAL STAGE, NOT SO MUCH.

AND DESANTIS HASN'T DONE THAT YET.

YOU KNOW JENNIFER, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND.

THE ONLY MEMBER OF CONGRESS WHO WAS THERE LAST NIGHT WAS MADISON CAWTHORN WHO WAS NOT ONLY DEFEATED IN HIS MOST RECENT ELECTION BUT ALSO ACCUSED OF ESSENTIALLY MISAPPROPRIATING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

"THE NEW YORK POST" OWNED BY RUPERT MURDOCH, USED TO BE A BIG TRUMP SUPPORTER, VERY POWERFUL IN THE REPUBLICAN CIRCLES, HAD A HEADLINE IN THE NEW YORK POST, QUU SEE AT THE BOTTOM.

FLORIDA MAN MAKES ANNOUNCEMENT ON PAGE 26.

DO THOSE THINGS MATTER.

WHEN YOU HAVE, EVEN THOUGH HE DIDN'T HAVE A HUGE PERSONALITY LAST NIGHT, WHEN YOU WERE A HUGE PRESENCE LIKE DONALD TRUMP IS, DOES IT MATTER IF POWERFUL MEDIA LIKE FOX NEWS, LIKE THE POST, LIKE THE "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" ABANDON HIM?

DOES IT MATTER IF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS JUMP AWAY OR AT THE END OF THE DAY IS IT JUST ALL ABOUT TRUMP?

>> WELL, FOR TRUMP IT'S ALWAYS ALL ABOUT TRUMP.

IF PEOPLE HAD NOT READ "THE NEW YORK POST" ANNOUNCEMENT, THEY MUST.

ST HYSTERICAL.

IT WILL BE THE BRIGHT LIGHT OF YOUR DAY.

HOWEVER, DOES IT MATTER IF THE MEDIA ABANDONS YOU?

TO SOME DEGREE I THINK IT DOES.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT 16, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TRUMP'S PERSONALITY WAS BUILT UP BY THE FREE MEDIA THAT HE GOT.

AND WE SAW THAT IN 2020.

HE DIDN'T GET QUITE SO MUCH OF THAT.

BUT WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT IS WHAT CAN DONALD TRUMP, WHAT WILL DONALD TRUMP DO TO KEEP HIS BASE AND WHAT WILL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADERSHIP DO TO TRY TO TAKE HIS BASE AWAY FROM HIM.

>> Braude: WHAT WILL THEY DO?

WHAT WILL THEY DO?

IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THEY WILL DO ANYTHING?

>> SO FAR EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY'RE STARTING TO KIND OF STEP AWAY FROM TRUMP.

AND THEY'RE TRYING TO REPRIMAND TRUMP AND THIS SORT OF THING.

THERE HAVE BEEN ZERO INDICATIONS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OR ITS LEADERSHIP IS READY TO REJECT TRUMP INTERNALLY.

TRUMP RAISES MONEY.

TRUMP KEEPS THEIR PRIMARY VOTERS, YOU KNOW, RILED UP AND READY TO TAKE ACTION.

TRUMP CAN ATTACK AND DESTROY ANY INDIVIDUAL SITTING REPUBLICAN IN CONGRESS.

AS LONG LONG AS THEY'RE AFRAID TO STAND UP TO TRUMP PUBLICLY AND AGGRESSIVELY, WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE THE PARTY OF TRUMP WHETHER HE IS PRESIDENT OR NOT.

>> ARE YOU TROUBLED, I READ AT THE TOP, THE TWEET THAT NPR PUT OUT LAST NIGHT, NOW THERE SAY BIG MOVE ON TWITTER, HASHTAG DEFUND NPR.

MARGARET SULLIVAN, A FORMER OMBUDSMAN, MEDIA CRITIC AT THE "WASHINGTON POST," NEW YORK TIMES HAS SAID THE MEDIA GAVE A FREE RIDE TO DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.

I THINK THEY DID.

NOT ONLY IN PLACES LIKE CNN, WHICH IS MY CABLE CHANNEL OF CHOICE.

BROADCAST SPEECHES FROM BEGINNING TO END.

THEY WOULD HAVE VIDEO, LIVE INDIVIDUAL YOF THE LECTURN EMPTY WAITING FOR DONALD TRUMP TO COME.

EVERYTHING NPR SAID IS TRUE.

SHOULD THAT NOT BE THE WAY EVERY TIME HE SPEAKS, ROW INTRODUCE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, INSURRECTIONISTS, SOMEBODY WHO A TMENTED TO LEAD AN OVERTHROW, SOMEBODY WHO.

>> TWICE IMPEACHED.

>> Braude.

>> I GUESS THAT IS THE CASE.

>> Braude: WELL, IT IS THE CASE FACTUALLY.

>> SHOULD YOU BE DOING THAT FOR EVERY POLITICIAN, SHOULD TED KENNEDY, CHAPPAQUIDICK, HE LEFT A WOMAN THERE TO DROWN.

I DON'T KNOW, AS LONG AS IT IS AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD.

WHEHER IT IS, CUZ ONCE YOU START THAT PRECEDENT WHERE OH, I DON'T LIKE HIS IDEOLOGY, SO WE ARE GOING TO-- .

>> Braude: IT'S NOT ABOUT IDEOLOGY, STAY RECITATION OF FACTS.

>> BUT IT SAY SLIPPERY SLOPE.

>> Braude: IS IT A SLIPPERY SLOPE, JENNIFER HORN.

>> IT IS NOT AT ALL A SLIPPERY SLOPE, NOBODY IS SAYING INTRODUCE HIM AS THE GUY WHO WAS MARRIED THREE TIMES, MEAN TO HIS KID, THE GUY WHO KICKS PUPPIES, THEY ARE SAYING THIS IS A GUY WHO INSPIRED AND FUELED A VIOLENT, DEADLY ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THE ONLY THING THAT COMPARES TO THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENT HISTORY IS THE START OF THE CIVIL WAR.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ANYBODY CAN LOOK AT THE, WHAT DONALD TRUMP BROUGHT THE PRECIPICE TO WHICH HE LEAD OUR NATION AND THINK THAT HE SHOULD-- THAT IS HE JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

>> Braude: LET JOE RESPOND TO THAT.

>> IF ANYBODY OUT THERE WOULD BE TWICE IMPEACHED, THEY SHOULD BE INTRODUCED THAT BAY TOO.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT IT.

>> PUT BOB SMITH'S NAME AS OPPOSED TO DONALD TRUMP.

ONCE THE MEDIA GETS INTO THIS SELECTIVITY OF WE'RE GOING TO SAY THIS PERSON, ABCDEFG, DID THESE THINGS WRONG.

BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAY IT ABOUT THIS OTHER PERSON.

WHERE DOES THAT COME INTO PLAY.

I DON'T GET IT.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT SHOULD COME INTO PLAY.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE TREATED EQUALLY.

IF THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEAD VIOLENT-- .

>> Braude: ONE AT A TIME, JENNIFER AND JOE.

>> THEY SHOULD BE IDENTIFIED.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INSURRECTION, QUOTE UNQUOTE, AS IF THISES THAT HAND SIGNED, SEALED, DELIVERED, IT IS AN UGLY MOAVMENT.

WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TRUMP'S ROLE WAS IN THE WHOLE THING.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK TRUMP'S ROLE WAS IN THE WHOLE THING.

YOU SAW WHAT HE HAD TO SAIVMENT YOU WERE WATCHING JANUARY 6th HEARINGS.

>> I'M NOT PRIVY TO ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT HAS COME OUT.

YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE SAYING WHY WOULDN'T THEY HEAT THE-- LET THE MINE ORDER LEADER, LET McQUARTY PUT HIS TWO PEOPLE ON THERE, INSTEAD THE SPEAKER SAID NO, NO, I'M GOING TO CHOOSE.

>> Braude: JOE MALONE,-- ONE OF THE RANKING REPUBLICANS SAID NANCY PELOSI DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

THEN WE SEE A VIDEO WHERE NANCY PELOSI IS ON THE PHONE TO THE GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA.

VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND DO YOU KNOW WHO IS STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HER WHILE SHE IS HAVING THOSE PHONE CONVERSATIONS, STEVE SCALISE WHO SAID SHE DID NOTHING.

>> YOU MY POINT IS THAT SHE PUT KINZINGER ON THERE.

AND SHE PUT LIZ CHENEY, SHE PUT THOSE TWO ON THERE BECAUSE SHE KNEW WHERE THEY WERE COMING FROM AND THEY HATED TRUMP.

>> Braude: KEVIN McCARTHY WAS OFFERED.

>> MY ONLY POINT, JIM, AND YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIST ALL OF THESE THINGS ABOUT TRUMP OR NIBBLES, YOU BETTER BE WILLING TO SAY JOE BIDEN ABC.

>> Braude: WHOEVER WHO ELSE A.

>>.

>> WHATEVER PRESIDENT HAS HAD A SON WHO HAS TAKEN A MILLIONS OF DOLLARST.

>> Braude: THERE WE G WAW KNOW WHAT TROUBLES ME THE MOST ABOUT THE TRUMP CONVERSATION.

YOU HAVE BEEN RELENTORLESS, A LOT OF YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE TOO.

TO ME THE ISSUE MOST TROUBLING IS NOT TRUMP.

THE ISSUE IS THAT THERE ARE STILL TENS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO ARE FINE WITH A GUY, IN FACT, IN LOVE WITH A GUY WHO TRADED IN RACISM, MISOGYNY, INSURRECTIONISM.

I WOULD ARGUE THE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BECAUSE TO HIM THE COVID CRISIS WAS A PR CRISIS, NOT A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

DOES THAT, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE LINGERING ATTACHMENT THAT IS REALLY DEEP WITH SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT FOR EVERY ONE OF THE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF AMERICANS OUT THERE, WHO STILL EMBRACE WHAT THEY THINK OR WHO THEY THINK DONALD TRUMP IS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES, ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH THAT IS THAT ALL OF THOSE TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE CEDABLY ELECTED MEMBERS OF THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE WHO EMBRACE WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

WHO ARE ELECTION DENIERS, WHO WOULD VOTE FOR TRUMP AGAIN IF HE BECOMES THE NOMINEE OF THE PARTY.

NOT BECAUSE I LEFT THE PARTY, BUT BECAUSE IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IT FALLS ON REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADERSHIP TO FIX THIS PROBLEM.

>> Braude: YOU HAVE A 30 SECOND RESPONSE.

>> ALL I'M SAYING, THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF TRUMP.

IT IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD THAT HAS TO EXIST.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION WHO IS SAYING THE BORDER IS SEALED AND THE MEDIA DOESN'T SAY WAIT A MINUTE, WE GOT ALL THESE PEOPLE COMING OVER THE BORDER.

>> Braude: I HAVE A COMPROMISE.

>> THAT IS A LIE.

>> Braude: SO MIKE PENCE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HIM, WE SHOULD SAY THE GUY WHO DONALD TRUMP THOUGHT SHOULD BE HANGED ON JANUARY 6th.

>> AGAIN, JIM, I UNDERSTAND, IT IS INDEFENSIBLE.

>> Braude: JOE MALONE, JENNIFER HORN, GOT TO GO, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

LAST WEEK'S SUMMER WEATHER STREAK WAS PRETTY NICE IF YOU COULD MANAGE TO PUT THE IMPENDING DOOM OF CLIMATE CHANGE ASIDE.

BUT THESE DAYS, THE MORE SEASONALLY-APPROPRIATE MISERY AND RAIN MIGHT HAVE YOU DREAMING OF AN ESCAPE AND BASED ON THESE PHOTOS, THERE'S A PART OF GREECE THAT'S JUMPING TO THE TOP OF MY TO-TRAVEL LIST.

JOINING ME IS THE MAN WHO TOOK THESE, AND HAS PLENTY MORE VACATION EXPERIENCES TO SHARE, INCLUDING WHERE TO FIND THE MOST CHRISTMASSY TOWN IN AMERICA-- I'D CALL IT, LOVINGLY, HELL ON EARTH-- AND WHAT TYPE OF TRAVELER NOT TO BE.

THAT'D BE "BOSTON GLOBE" TRAVEL WRITER, CHRISTOPHER MUTHER.

I DIDN'T GET THAT QUITE RIGHT, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> HI, GOOD TO SEE YOU MR. GRINCH.

>> Braude: ONE OF MY DREAMING INS LIFE, THIS IS TOTALLY TO WAS TO DO AN OVERNIGHT TRAIN THING, GO TO THE DINING CAR, HAVE DINNER AT A WHITE TABLE CLOTH KIND OF THING, YOU HAVE DESTROYED THOSE DREAMS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THERE ARE TWO TRIPS YOU TOOK.

ONE WAS NEW YORK TO SA VANNA THE SILVER MET YOR.

TELL US ABOUT THAT LEAVING OUT ANY REFERENCE TO FECAL MATTER.

>> TECHNICALLY FECAL SMIS, I REQUEST EXPLAIN THAT.

>> HOW HORRIBLE WAS THAT.

>> IT WAS SO BAD I COULDN'T BRING MYSELF TO WRITE ABOUT IT WHICH FOR ME IS REALLY SAYING SOMETHING.

IT WAS JUST MISERABLE.

>> Braude: YOU HAD A ROOMETTE I THINK IT IS CALLED, YOU LIKENED TO A PRISON CELL.

>> IT REALLY WAS A PRISON CELL BECAUSE THERE WAS A STEINLESS STEEL TOILET RIGHT BESIDE THE SEAT THAT FOLDED DOWN INTO A BED.

SO ALL I COULD THINK ABOUT WAS THE YEARS OF PEOPLE USING THE TOILET RIGHT BESIDE THE BED BECAUSE THE CABIN HADN'T BEEN RENOVATED IN PROBABLY, I'M BEING GENEROUS, 30 YEARS.

>> Braude: WOW, SO DID YOU, BECAUSE, I MEAN THIS SINCERELY, YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE JOURNALIST, RATHER THAN TRASHING AMTRAK, LET'S GIVE IT ANOTHER GO WHICH IS WHY YOU DID THE SEATTLE TO WASHINGTON.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY IT.

THIS ONE EXPERIENCE, CAN'T BE LIKE, THIS I MEAN THE EMPLOYEES WERE KIND OF COMPLAINING ABOUT WHAT A LOUSY COMPANY THEY WERE WORKING FOR.

IT WAS JUST LIKE, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T KNOW WHO I AM, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT NO CUSTOMER WANTS TO HEAR THAT.

SO BETWEEN THE PRISON CELL, THE SERVICE, THEY HAD JUST GOTTEN RID OF THE WHITE TABLE CLOTHS IN THE DINING CAR.

THIS WAS PREPANDEMIC.

SO THERE WAS NO REASON AND THEY WERE HANDING OUT FOIL TINS.

>> POST PANNED.

>> PRE, YOUR TRIP WAS THREE.

>> THE SILVER MET YOR WAS PREAND THE EMPIRE BUILDER WHICH WAS THE ONE, THE SECOND CHANCE WHICH I DID LAST MONTH, WAS YOU KNOW, WAS THE POST.

>> Braude: AND THAT WAS NOT SO HOT EITHER.

>> CORRECT.

>> Braude: WHAT YOU SAID IS THE SCENERY IS BEAUTIFUL AND THE TRAIN IS A GREAT PLACE TO SEE IT FROM BUT YOU WEREN'T SO CRAZY ABOUT THE TRAIN OUT THERE EITHER.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I WAS MORE INTO THAT RIDE THAN I WAS THE PREVIOUS ONE BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A TOILET IN MY ROOM SO THAT HELPED.

I BOOKED ANOTHER ROOMETTE WHICH IS THE SMALLER VERSION.

>> Braude: WHAT DID YOU DO, LEAN OUT THE WINDOW.

>> OH, WHEN THE TRAIN WAS MOVING.

NO, I WAS TRYING TO SPREAD THE FECAL MIST.

>> Braude: OKAY, KEEP IT GOING.

BUT MI WRITE, WHAT DID YOU GET TO SEE.

>> IT WENT THROUGH GLACIER NATIONAL PARK IN MONTANA AND OBSERVE CAR, AT SUNRISE.

AND IT, THERE WERE THESE TREES CALLED LAN TREES WHICH IS SORT OF PINE TREES THAT AREN'T EVERGREEN AND THEY WERE TURNING BRIGHT YELLOW WITH THE SNOW CAPPED MOUNTAINS IT WAS FANTASTIC.

>> Braude: SO WHEN MOST PEOPLE SAY THEY SPEND TIME AT LEAVENWORTH THEY MEAN HARD TIME, LIKE IN A PRISON IN LEAVENWORTH.

>> LIKE YOU DID, YEAH.

>> Braude: YOU SPENT TIME IN LEVINWORTH, WASHINGTON, I GUESS ON THE WAY TO SEATTLE.

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE.

AND WHAT IS IT THE MOST CHRISTMASSY, WAS THAT YOUR TERMINOLOGY TOWN IN AMERICA.

>> IT WAS A SURVEY DONE AND IT WAS VOTED THE MOST CHRISTMASSY TOWN IN AMERICA.

>> Braude: AND WHY IS IT?

WHAT IS IT.

>> WELL, IT IS SORT OF LIKE, IT IS ACTUALLY JUST LIKE BEING IN A BAVARIAN VILLAGE.

AND YOU KNOW NORMALLY YOU WOULD THINK OH T IS HOKEY, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE COMMITTED TO MAKING IT LIKE A BAVARIAN VILLAGE.

EVEN THE STREET SIGNS ARE IN THAT FONTD THAT YOU SEE.

>> Braude: YEAH.

>> AND IT JUST, THERE IS A NUTCRACKER MUSEUM, A REINDEER FARM.

I MEAN THERE ARE 21 MILES OF CHRISTMAS LIGHTS, THAT IS ALL IT IS.

YOU CAN'T GET A MORE CHRISTMASSY TOWN.

>> Braude: I LOVE CHRISTMAS, SOUNDS LIKE ONE OF THE WORST THINGS I EVER HEARD.

IS IT AS BHAD AS IT SOUNDS.

>> IT DEPENDS, FOR INSTANCE, YOU WOULD GO AND YOU WOULD HAVE A BAD ATTITUDE AND NOT LIKE IT I NORMALLY WOULD BE A CYNICAL GUY WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS BUT I JUST THOUGHT, YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M HERE.

I'M GOING TO LIVE IT.

>> Braude: SO LIKE ARE 2400 PEOPLE S THAT WHAT YOU WROTE.

>> REALLY TINY.

>> Braude: ARE ALL THE TOWN RESIDENTS INTO THE SCHTICK OR ARE THEY?

>> I MEAN WEIRDLY, EVERYONE I SPOKE WITH IS INTO IT I DON'T KNOW IF THEY JUST HAPPEN TO BE NICE.

THERE BUT I SPENT AN INORDINATE AMOUNT OF TIME AT THE GINGERBREAD FACTORY AND EVERYONE THERE WAS MORE THAN HAPPY TO TALK CHRISTMAS.

AND THERE WAS A GIANT ORNAMENT STORE, OBVIOUSLY CALLED CHRIS KRIJ, NO E. AND EVERYONE THERE WAS LIKE IN THE CHRISTMAS SPIRIT.

AND I WAS THERE IN OCTOBER.

>> Braude: OKAY.

SO YOU WROTE ANOTHER PIECE, THE TITLE OF WHICH, I KNOW YOU DON'T WRITE THE TITLES BUT IT ACCURATELY REFLECT IT.

EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT TRAVEL I LEARNED FROM JAMES BOND.

FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT IS PURE RHETORIC, WE HAVE SOME PROOF THAT EVERYTHING HE DID LEARN ABOUT TRAVEL WAS FROM JAMES BOND.

WHEN CHRISTOPHER JOINED US, AS JAMES BOND FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA IN JULY OF 2021, HERE HE IS.

>> HANG ON A SECOND.

>> IT'S HOPELESS.

>> THAT WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOMENTS, ONLY FOUR SECONDS THERE, BUT YOU WERE ON THE MEDITERRANEAN IN A TUX, SLIGHTLY TIP SEE DRINKING WINE, A LA JAMES BOND, CORRECT.

>> YES, AND I WAS WITH TWO WOMEN CALLED BAM BEE AND THUMPER, SO IT WAS JUST LIKE JAMES BOND.

JUST LIKE.

>> Braude: SO WHAT DID YOU-- EVERYTHING I LEARNED, GIVE ME RUN DOWN THE LIST QUICKLY, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS YOU DID LEARN.

BECAUSE ACTUALLY SOME OF THEM WERE SEMI, I WOULDN'T SAY SERIOUS BUT LEGIT, LIKE WHAT DID YOU LEARN.

>> THE THING ABOUT GOING OFF THE BEATEN PATH, I THINK IS A BIG ONE WHERE JAMES BOND DOES THAT A LOT.

HE WILL GO TO THE BIG TOURIST SITE BUT THEN HE WILL FIND THE QUIET PLACES WHERE HE IS USUALLY RECUPERATING FROM BULLET WOUNDS WHICH I DON'T RECOMMEND GETTING SHOT.

TRAVELING BY YOURSELF.

YOU KNOW, NO ONE IS BETTER AT TRAVELING BY HIMSELF AND MAKING NEW FRIENDS LIKE BAM BEE AND THUMPER, LIKE JAMES BOND.

AND I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO TRAVEL BY THEMSELVES WHEN THEY ARE OUT.

>> BY THE WAY, WE DON'T HAVE TO MENTION BAM BEE AND THUMPER AGAIN, TWICE WAS PLENTY, SO YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

SO YOU WHERE A BIG SOLO TRAVELER.

AND YOU OFTEN WRITE YOUR HUSBAND IS UPSET BECAUSE ARE YOU NOT HOME MORE OFTEN OR NOT HOME MORE QUICKLY AND THAT IS SWEET.

>> OR SO HE SAYS.

>> Braude: I WAS GOING TO SAY, BUT TRAVELING SOLO IS A SPECIAL DEAL.

I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE, I'M A LITTLE INTIMIDATED, PARTICULARLY IN PLACES WHERE THE LANGUAGE IS DIFFERENT.

I KNOW IT IS CHILDISH BUT YOU BREAK THROUGH ALL OF THIS STUFF.

HOW?

>> IT IS, I MEAN, HONESTLY IT IS NOT CHILDISH STRKS JUST SOMETHING THAT WE ARE CONDITIONED TO.

WE HAVE ALWAYS VACATIONED WITH OUR FAMILY, OR SPOUSES.

WHEN YOU ARE BY YOURSELF YOU FIND THAT PEOPLE APPROACH YOU.

BECAUSE ONE THEY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU.

SO YOU KNOW, NOT BAM BEE AND THUMPER BUT THEIR FRIEND PLENTY O'TOOLE WILL COME OVER AND CHAT ME UP.

BUT SERIOUSLY WHEN I WAS ON THE TRAIN, I WOULD MEET PEOPLE.

WHEN I GO ON CRUISESHIPS, THAT IS A BIG ONE, I ALWAYS END UP WITH SURROGATE FAMILIES T IS CRAZY.

SO I FIND THAT EVEN THOUGH I'M TRAVELING BY MYSELF, I'M SELDOM BY MYSELF.

>> Braude: I ADMIRE THE QUALITY, I REALLY DO AND I HOPE SOME DAY TO HAVE IT.

YOU WROTE A PIECE ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA AND TRAVEL, THAT IS MAYBE THE MOST PATHETIC THING I READ ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA SINCE ELON MUSK TOOK OVER TWITTER.

>> OH BOY, THAT'S BAD.

>> Braude: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT, PEOPLE WHO APPARENTLY CARE MORE ABOUT THE RESPONSE THEY GET, LIKES AND COMMENTS ABOUT THEIR TRIP THAN THE TRIP THEMSELVES, THAT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THEY SAY.

>> THAT'S IT, YEAH, THERE IS 40% OF PEOPLE, LIKE MEL AN-- MILL ENYELLS AND AGAIN J, LIKE 15% OF EVERYBODY ELSE WHICH IS ALSO SHOCKING, WHAT THEIR MEMORY OF THE TRIP IS, IS HOW MANY PEOPLE LIKED OR COMMENTED ON THEIR PHOTOS.

SO FOR INSTANCE, IF THEY POSTED SOMETHING AND IT ONLY GOT LIKE FIVE LIKES, THEY WILL COME AWAY THINKING THIS WAS NOT A SUCCESSFUL VACATION.

>> Braude: EVEN IF THEY LOVED THE VACATION WHEN THEY WERE THERE.

>> YEAH, THAT IS WHAT THIS SURVEY FOUND.

AND IT IS ONE SURVEY.

BUT I HAVE PLENTY OF FRIENDS WHO DO THIS.

THEY ARE GUILTY OF OVERPOSTING.

I WILL JUST COME UP WITH A FAKE NAME, ERIC KENT.

WHO DOES THIS QUITE A BIT.

>> Braude: TWO FRIENDS OF MINE, BAM BEE AND THUMPER ACTUALLY THEY POSTED ALL THE TIME.

>> BUT YOU HAVE GREAT ADVICE BY THE WAY BURIED IN THIS COLUME ABOUT THESE PATHETIC LOSERS WHO CARE MORE ABOUT COMMENTS THAN THE ACTUAL THING YOU SAY NEVER POST PHOTOGRAPHS UNTIL ARE YOU HOME BECAUSE YOU POST THEM WHILE YOU ARE TRAVELING, YOU ARE GOING TO CHECK TO SEE THE LIKES AND COMMENTS AND IT IS GOING TO SPOIL YOUR VACATION.

>> I ALWAYS FEEL LIKE IT IS BETTER TO TRY TO BE IN THE MOMENT MORE THAN POSTING ON INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK AND TIKTOK.

AND THEN ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT I SAID YEARS AGO IN ANOTHER COLUME WAS THAT FOR SECURITY PURPOSES, I MEAN WHEN ARE YOU POSTING TO SOCIAL MEDIA, ARE YOU BASICALLY SAYING TO EVERYBODY LOOK, I'M NOT HOME.

>> Braude: BREAK INTO MY HOUSE.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: THAT SAY GOOD POINT, BY THE WAY, ONE LAST THING, LET'S END ON A BRIGHT NOTE.

THE THE.

>> PALIPOINIANS PART OF GREECE, THE LESS TRAVELED PART OF GREECE, AM I NOT RIGHT.

>> ARE YOU CLEATLY RIGHT.

>> Braude: WHAT STOOD OUT THAT MADE YOU LOVE IT AS MUCH AS YOU DID.

>> I HAVE BEEN TO GREECE A BUNCH OF TIMES, MOSTLY THE ISLANDS WHERE EVERYONE GOES.

AND IF IS KIND OF THE OPPOSITE OF MICS NO AND THOSE PLACES BECAUSE IT WAS QUIET.

>> Braude: YOU TOOK ALL OF THESE PICTURES.

>> I DID.

>> Braude: THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL.

>> THAT WAS OLYMPIA UP THERE.

WHICH IS, YOU KNOW WHERE THE OLYMPIC GAMES TOOK PLACE.

>> Braude: THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED OLYMPIA.

>> SMART.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

SO WHAT IS IT, BECAUSE IT IS LESS TRAVELED, IS THAT PART OF THE APPEAL.

>> I THINK IT IS A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

DEFINITELY BECAUSE IT IS LESS TRAVELED BUT ALSO IT HAS INCREDIBLE HISTORIC SITES.

IT HAS MOUNTAINS.

IT HAS BEACHES.

IT HAS SOME OF THE BEST PRESERVED BIZ AN TEEN CITIES IN EUROPE.

AND IT IS COMPLETELY OVERLOOKED.

WHEN I WENT THERE TO A HEALTH RETREAT ESCAPE, EVERYONE THERE WAS AUSTRALIAN OR BRITISH OR YEAH, JUST FROM EVERYWHERE BUT THE UNITED STATES.

SO PEOPLE I FEEL LIKE DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT AND I FELT GILTDEE WRITING ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE.

>> BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL KNOW.

>> PEOPLE WILL KNOW ABOUT IT BUT THANKFULLY NO ONE READS WHAT I WRITE OR FOLLOWS MY ADVICE.

>> Braude: I ACTUALLY READ IT BEFORE YOU GO FOR PEOPLE IN NEED LIKE A USED COMPUTER, WHEN WILL YOU BE TRAVELING NEXT?

EXACTLY.

CHRISTOPHER MUTDER, LOVE TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH, BRILLIANT TRAVEL WRITER, "BOSTON GLOBE."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org