>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ABOARD.

LOTS OF GOING ON ON THIS PROGRAM, SO LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS DISCUSSING THE ISSUES OF THE WEEK, STARTING WITH THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW ON KTRS, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

RAY HARTMANN FROM THE BIG 550 KTRS, RAWSTORY.COM AND THE RIVERFRONT SOMETIMES AND FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN WHERE HE EDITS THE NEWS AS NEWS EDITOR AND WRITES A SPORTS COLUMN, MR. ALVIN REID.

HEY, ON THE SECOND HALF NEXT UP, WE'RE GOING TO WELCOME PULT IT WILL ZERO PRIZE WINNING COLUMNIST, TONY MESSENGER, WITH A NEW PAGE TURNER CALLED "PROFIT AND PUNISHMENT."

WENDY WIESE, MAJOR NEWS, THIS TIME FROM THE ST. LOUIS BUSINESS JOURNAL THAT REPRESENTATIVES OF STAN KROENKE, THE OWNER OF THE L.A. RAMS, SENT EMAILS TO OTHER NFL OWNERS ESSENTIALLY SAYING, DESPITE WHATEVER I PROMISED EARLIER TO INDEMNIFY THE LEAGUE, I AM NOT GOING TO PAY ALL THE LEGAL BILLS, THE PUNITIVE DAMAGES, THE AWARDS, THE LEGAL FEES, AND -- FOR THE LEAGUE.

AND IF THEY'RE NOT SHARED BY MY FELLOW NFL OWNERS, I'M GOING TO SETTLE WITH THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS FOR SOMEWHERE BETWEEN A HALF AND THREE-QUARTERS OF A BILLION DOLLARS.

SO IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME MONEY COMING OUR WAY, AT LEAST IT LOOKS MORE LIKE IT EVERY DAY THAT WE DISCUSS THIS ISSUE.

>> WELL, SEE, HERE'S THE INTERESTING THING, RIGHT, CHARLIE?

IF WHAT HE SAID TO HIS FELLOW NFL OWNERS IS NOW OFF THE TABLE AND HE'S WIGGLED OR SLITHERED OUT OF THAT PREVIOUS DEAL, THEN I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH IN ANY MAN WHO SAYS, HERE'S WHAT I'M GOING TO SETTLE, IT'S JUST GOING TO BE THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND I AT THE BARGAINING TABLE AND I'M GOING ZO GIVE THEM BETWEEN HALF A BILLION AND THREE-QUARTERS OF A BILLION.

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE -- THIS IS LIKE BEYOND JELLO, NAILING JELLO TO A WALL.

I'M STUNNED AND I JUST -- I SUPPOSE I SHOULDN'T BE BECAUSE THIS IS WHY SO MANY OF HIS BUSINESS PARTNERS END UP IN LITIGATION WITH HIM BECAUSE HE'S THE REASON WHY THEY AGREED TO, IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT SO MANY OF THE LEAGUE OWNERS HAVE SAID, THE REASON WHY THEY AGREED TO THE RELOCATION WAS BECAUSE HE WAS GOING TO INDEMNIFY ALL OF THEM IN TERMS OF FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>> I WAS STRUCK BY A NUMBER OF PARTS OF THE STORY WHEN IT CAME OUT.

ONE, THIS IS FAR MORE ENTERTAINING TO WATCH THAN THE RAMS WERE FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SUPER BOWL YEARS, BUT THIS IS REALLY AMAZING BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER A STORY WHERE UNLIKELY LEAKERS ARE LEAKING AT SUCH AN AMAZING CLIP.

JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT IT DOES TO THE -- AND I DON'T HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT HOW THEY -- WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IN TERMS OF -- STAN KROENKE DOESN'T HAVE CREDIBILITY WITH ANYBODY, BUT REALLY STRENGTHENED HIS BARGAINING POSITION TO HAVE IT IN THE MEDIA THAT YOU CAN KIND OF FORGET THE 500 PART OF THE 500 TO 750 RANGE.

I'M THINKING IF I'M BENNETT, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO START AT 751.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THANK YOU FOR LETTING US KNOW WHAT YOU MIGHT SETTLE FOR.

I THINK THAT IT SURE LOOKS MORE AND MORE, BASED ON THEIR OBVIOUS DYSFUNCTION ON THEIR SIDE, THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME SORT OF VICTORY AND I'LL STICK TO MY STWUNS THAT IT WON'T BE -- GUNS THAT IT WON'T BE AN EXPANSION FRANCHISE.

I'M NOT SURE IT MIGHT NOT BE.

>> I'M STILL -- I KNOW ALL THESE RULINGS ARE COMING UP AND THEY'RE IN ST. LOUIS AND ALL THAT.

I'M STILL NOT SOLD ON ST. LOUIS ACTUALLY WIN THING CASE.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I AM SOLD ON.

THESE WOLVES AIN'T GOING TO LET NONE OF THIS HAPPEN IN THE NFL.

ALL THIS INFORMATION IS COMING OUT AND PUTTING HIM IN A GOOD SPOT, A BAD SPOT.

IT'S NOT GOING DOWN THE PATH THAT IT'S GOING DOWN AND WE BETTER BE SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THAT THEY PROBABLY GOT SOMETHING UP THEIR SLEEVE.

>> YOU'RE SAYING THEY WON'T SETTLE -- >> IF HE'S GOING TO WRITE US A CHECK, WE NEED TO ACCEPT THAT CHECK AND FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE MONEY AND MOVE ON BECAUSE I STILL DON'T THINK -- I THINK ST. LOUIS COULD WIN AND THE SAME THING HAPPEN TO US THAT HAPPENED TO THE UNITED STATES FOOTBALL LEAGUE.

THE JUDGE WILL SAY, YOU WON, HERE'S A DOLLAR.

I REALLY SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENING.

>> I THINK EVEN IF WE WON AND IT'S VERY GOOD AND WE COULD WIN WIN, IT WOULD GET OVERTHROWN ON APPEAL.

HOW KIT NOT?

THE LEAGUE WANTED TO CHANGE VENUE AND THE JUDGE SAID NO, SO NOW THE PLAINTIFFS, US, ARE GOING TO BE THE JURY.

HOW CAN THAT BE FAIR?

AND STAN KROENKE IS THE MOST UNPOPULAR MAN IN ST. LOUIS BY A TON.

HOW CAN HE GET A FAIR TRIAL HERE?

>> BUT I THINK IT'S A REACH TO THINK YOU COULDN'T FIND 12 JURORS WHO REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT FOOTBALL.

THERE ARE -- BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THERE ARE THOSE PEOPLE.

>> WELL, IF I WAS AN APPELLATE JUDGE, I'D SAY, WELL, THE PLAINTIFFS WERE THE JURY?

YES, SIR.

THAT CAN'T -- >> I THINK BILL'S ON TO SOMETHING.

I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARILY EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AS MUCH AS THE AMOUNT.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE REASON WE DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH LEVERAGE AND THAT WE OUGHT TO -- AS YOU SAY, WE OUGHT TO SETTLE IS -- I THINK THERE'S ZERO POSSIBILITY THAT A ST. LOUIS JUDGE IS GOING TO SAY, HERE, YOU GET A DOLLAR.

I THINK THERE'S A BIG -- IT'S LIKELY THAT THE JURY AND THE LOCAL JUDGE ARE GOING TO GIVE US A HUGE AMOUNT.

WHAT I THINK IS LIKELY IS THAT APPELLATE JUDGES WILL -- THAT'S WHERE THE NUMBER WILL COME DOWN BY A LARGE AMOUNT.

IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK THE APPELLATE JUDGES WON'T THROW IT OUT, BUT THEY'LL CUT IT.

THAT'S WHAT THEY GENERALLY DO IN BIG VERDICTS, AND I THINK WE OUGHT TO -- I'M WITH YOU.

WE OUGHT TO TAKE A -- ST. LOUIS OUGHT TO TAKE IT.

>> OKAY, OKAY.

HEY, LET'S MOVE ON TO OUR NEXT TOPIC.

BILL McCLELLAN, KIND OF SPORTS-RELATED IN IF YOU CONSIDER THAT FOR THE SECOND GAME IN ABOUT A MONTH, PEOPLE ATTENDING THE BLUES GAMES IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS HAD THEIR CARS BROKEN INTO EARLIER THIS WEEK.

ABOUT 30 PEOPLE WERE VICTIMS AND THAT ALSO HAPPENED LAST WEEK TO OTHER CARS AND THE REPORTER WHO COVERS SPORTS FOR CHANNEL 5, HIS CAR WAS STOLEN.

WE KNOW THERE WAS A CAR STOLEN FROM ONE OF OUR TOP OFFICIALS HERE AT THIS PLACE, AND MARK REARDON AT KMOX, HIS CAR WAS STOLEN.

I MET A FRIEND THE OTHER DAY, HIS CAR WAS STOLEN.

IT SEEMS LIKE AN EPIDEMIC OF EITHER CAR VANDALISM OR CAR THEFT, IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, MARK HARDER, LESLIE BELL, TIM FITCH HAVE ALL PUT FORWARD SOLUTIONS THAT THEY THINK WILL MAKE THE SITUATION BETTER.

IF YOU'RE A TEEN IN A STOLEN CAR AND YOU GET ARRESTED, YOU GET SOME SERIOUS LEGAL JEOPARDY.

IF YOU'RE BUYING A CATALYTIC CONVERTER, YOU HAVE TO WRITE DOWN THE NAME OF THE SELLER AND LOOK AT THE LICENSE PLATE.

ALSO IN ST. LOUIS, YOU CAN'T JIG GEL THE HANDLES OF CARS PARKED ON THE STREET.

YOU THINK THESE PROPOSED MEASURES ARE GOING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER TO MOTORISTS LOSING THEIR CARS TO VANDALS AND THIEVES?

>> NO, NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY SOLUTIONS, BUT ALL THE GET TOUGH ON CRIMES LIKE THIS AND WE'RE GOING TO CHARGE KIDS WHO ARE IN THE CAR, THAT WILL WORK FINE UNTIL THEY CHARGE THREE 16-YEAR-OLD KIDS WHO HAPPEN IN A CAR WHO SAY, HEY, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS STOLEN AND THE QUESTION IS, DO WE GIVE THEM FELONIES?

I MEAN, WE COULD PUT THEM IN JUVENILE HALL UNTIL THEY RUN AWAY FROM THERE.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SOLUTION IS, BUT GET TOUGH ON CRIME DOESN'T -- WE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE THE HEART FOR IT.

I MEAN, WE JUST HAD A REFORM JUSTICE SEMINAR HERE IN ST. LOUIS AND THE CROWD APPLAUDED KIM GARDNER.

I MEAN, WE'RE NOT REALLY GOING TO GET TOUGH ON CRIME.

>> I JUST THINK YOU HAVE TO EXAMINE WHY IS THIS -- OKAY, DID THE CAR THIEVERY MANUAL JUST MAKE TO ST. LOUIS?

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS GOING ON A LOT OF PLACES AND NOW IT'S HERE.

BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE -- HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW WE'RE THE CAR THIEF HOT BED OF AMERICA?

ARE PEOPLE JUST LEAVING THEIR CARS UNLOCKED?

THE CARS ARE VANDALIZED A LOT AT THE BLUES GAME, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY CARS ARE ACTUALLY STOLEN.

>> I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING, I THINK THERE'S ONE THING GOING ON HERE, ALVIN, AND THAT IS I TALKED THE OTHER SOMEDAY TO A PERSON WHO WANTED ANONYMITY, SO WE CALL HIM CALLER X.

HE'S A LAWYER WHO JUST MOVED BACK TO HIS HOMETOWN ABOUT A YEAR AGO FROM CHICAGO.

HE HAD TWO CARS STOLEN IN THE PAST YEAR.

ONE WAS IN CLAYTON AND THE OTHER WAS ON THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

AS A LAWYER, HE THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY CURIOUS WHEN HE CALLED THE POLICE IN THE CITY, THEY SAID WE DON'T INVESTIGATE CAR THEFTS.

HE SAID, ACTUALLY, STEALING A CAR IS A CLASS D FELONY PUNISHABLE UP TO SEVEN YEARS IN PRISON AND YOU DON'T INVESTIGATE IT IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS?

WHAT MESSAGE ARE YOU SENDING TO CAR THIEVES?

DO WHAT YOU WANT.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU.

>> WELL, I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE -- FOR WESLEY BELL AND MARK HARDER AND TIM FITCH AND OTHERS WHO ADVANCE SOME SORT OF MEASURES REGARDING CAT THAT -- CATALYTIC CONVERTERS AND PEOPLE CHECKING CAR HANDLES, TO HAVE ORDINANCES ABOUT THAT, I AGREE WITH TOUGHNESS, THREE STRIKES AND ALL THAT STUFF THAT DOESN'T WORK, THEY CAN'T SETTLE FOR THE FIRST HALF AND SAY I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE OUGHT TO DO.

THEY GOT TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING.

>> WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO SOMEBODY, RAY?

>> THERE'S FLUFF -- >> WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO SOME KID WALKING DOWN THE STREET AND SOMEBODY SEES HIM JIGGLING A CAR HANDLE?

ARE THEY GOING TO ARREST HIM?

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM IF HE DOES GET ARRESTED?

ARE WE REALLY GOING TO PRODUCE CUTE THAT?

>> I THINK IF SOMEBODY IS WALKING UP AND DOWN A STREET JUGGLING A BUNCH OF THEM, NOT ANY ONE, AND I REALIZE THERE'S ALWAYS THE POTENTIAL IN THIS COMMUNITY FOR SOME PEOPLE, BUT IF SOMEBODY IS WALKING ON ANY STREET IN THE CITY OR COUNTY JIG GELLING A BUNCH OF CAR HANDLES, YEAH, THAT SHOULD BE SOME SORT OF -- IT'S NOT A MAJOR FELONY, BUT YEAH, IT OUGHT TO BE A CRIME IN AND OF ITSELF.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S -- >> YOU THINK THAT OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY GOING TO GO AFTER THESE KIDS AND DO SOMETHING WITH THEM?

>> TIMING IS EVERYTHING AND THE TIMING HERE IS JUST MARVELOUS BECAUSE POST PANDEMIC, IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE FACING ANY CHALLENGES IN OUR CITIES AND IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS W MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW, BUSINESSES MOVING OUT, SQUARE HAVING TO SEND THEIR EMPLOYEES HOME.

YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF STUFF.

I'M BEING SARCASTIC, OF COURSE, BUT WHEN YOU READ THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED IN THIS WAY AND THEY'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M DONE, I'M OUT, I'M NOT GOING TO A BLUES GAME, I'M NOT GOING TO A CARDINALS GAME GHIE GHGHIE -- >> I GOT YOU, BUT I THINK PART OF THIS IS SUDDENLY CARS GETTING STOLEN OUT WHERE WE LIVE AND I THINK THAT THE CITY AND KIRKWOOD -- PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WOW, THEY'RE STEALING CARS EVERYWHERE.

I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT STOLEN CARS WHEN THEY WERE JUST STEALING THEM DOWN IN THE CITY.

AND TWO, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CHARGE PEOPLE WITH CASING THE JOINT.

>> OH, DIE.

>> I FEEL LIKE YOU'RE KIND OF LIKE -- >> YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO WALK UP AND DOWN A CITY OR COUNTY STREET OR ST. CHARLES COUNTY, WHATEVER, AND JUST TOUCHING DOOR HANDLES.

COPS LOOK AT THAT AND GO, CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?

GO AHEAD, YOUNG MAN.

>> WHAT'S UP WITH THE DOOR HANDLES?

>> I THINK YOU BRING -- I UNDERSTAND WE'RE NOT GOING TO THROW THEM IN THE STATE PENITENTIARY.

>> THE CITY WANTED 90 DAYS AND THAT'S WHY TISHAURA JONES OPPOSED IT BECAUSE IT INCLUDED INCARCERATION.

>> I'M NOT SAYING -- I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE'S SPECK IDEAS, BUT THE IDEA THAT IT SHOULD BE CRIMINALIZED TO WALK UP AND DOWN -- >> OKAY, WHILE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LAW AND ORDER, LET'S MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC, RAY, AND THAT WOULD BE JACOB CHANSLEY, AKA THE Q-ANON SHAMAN.

HE WAS SENTENCED TO 41 MONTHS.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT ON THE LOWER END OF THE FEDERAL SENTENCING GUIDELINES.

HE'S THE GUY WHO WAS WEARING THE HORNS AND ETCETERA AND WAS -- ON JANUARY 6th INSIDE THE CAPITOL.

HE WAS AMONG THE FIRST 30 IN THERE, HE REFUSED ORDERS TO LEAVE AND HE WAS ALSO USING A BULLHORN AND ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO BREAK THE LAW.

HE WAS DEFINITELY PART OF IT.

I WASN'T AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER WHO GOT LOST AND ENDED UP IN THE CAPITOL.

HE ALREADY SERVED ABOUT A YEAR IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND NOW HE'S GOING TO SPEND ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF YEARS BEHIND BARS AS A GUEST THE GOVERNMENT.

HMM, YOU THINK THAT WAS AN APPROPRIATE SENTENCE?

>> IT'S COMPLICATED.

NO, SHORT ANSWER IS IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT THEY'VE DONE SO FAR, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

MEANING, WHAT HE -- YOU GOT TO UNDERSTAND THE Q-ANON SHAM MAN, REPRESENTED BY ALBERT WATSON IN ST. LOUIS, IS THAT HE'S BECOME THE FACE OF THE INSURRECTION AND IF YOU -- THE FIRST 30 -- THEY'VE GIVEN -- BEFORE HIS.

THIS WAS THE 36th SENTENCE THEY'VE GIVEN OUT OF THESE 675 PEOPLE THAT HAVE SO FAR BEEN ARRESTED.

35 OF THEM, 60% OF THOSE, 21 BOT PROBATION OR JUST MINOR AMOUNTS OF HOME ARREST WITH PROBATION, HOUSE ARREST.

ANOTHER NINE GOT 30 OR 45 DAYS OR LESS.

I THINK GENERALLY IF YOU PUT THEM IN THE BUCKET OF PEOPLE WHO WERE VIOLENT AND PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT VIOLENT, WHICH I THINK IS PROBABLY THE KEY, THE VIOLENT ONCE, THERE'S ONE VIOLENT ONE THAT JUST GOT THE SAME SENTENCE.

HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S GOTTEN AS MUCH AS JACOB CHANSLEY.

41 MONTHS, SCOTT FAIRLAND, I BELIEVE HIS NAME IS.

HE GOT 41 MONTHS AND HE BEAT UP COPS AND HE HAS A RECORD OF BEATING PEOPLE UP.

SO HE'S NOT A FIRST OFFENDER.

FOR HIM TO GET THE SAME AS JACOB CHANSLEY I THINK IS UNFAIR.

>> BUT WOULD IT -- >> LET ME FINISH ONE SECOND.

I THINK ALL OF THEM SHOULD HAVE SOME CONDITIONS ON THEIR SENTENCES THAT GETS PAST JANUARY OF 2025.

I THINK THEY'RE ALL BEING UNDER-SENTENCED, BUT I THINK JACOB CHANSLEY -- >> WLEVEN YOU SAY JACOB HAS BECOME THE FACE OF THAT THING, HE PUT HIMSELF IN THAT POSITION WHEN HE PUT ON THE ROBE AND THE HORNS AND THE FACE PAINT AND THE MEGAPHONE.

HE WANTED TO BE THE FACE OF IT.

>> RIGHT.

>> HE'S ALSO A LITTLE BIT -- I THINK HE'S GOT MENTAL CHALLENGES.

>> I DON'T, I DON'T.

I AIN'T BUYING THAT MENTAL THING.

EVERYBODY'S CRAZY ONCE THEY'RE IN JAIL.

>> IF YOU GIVE A KID 90 DAYS WALKING UP AND DOWN THE STREET AND YOU'RE GOING TO FEEL SORRY FOR SOME DUDE WHO INVADED THE CAPITOL?

>> I DIDN'T SAY 90 DAYS.

>> YOU WANT HIM TO BE CHARGED.

>> I THINK IF THEY'RE GOING TO COME HARD DOWN ON SOME -- >> I DIDN'T SAY HARD DOWN.

>> WHY MAKE IT AN OFFENSE IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PUNISH THEM?

>> THE POINT IS AT LEAST GET THEM OFF THE STREET WHILE THEY'RE DOING IT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CHARGE.

>> BUT BACK -- ANYBODY WHO WAS THERE, SURE, COULD GET 41 MONTHS, GET FIVE YEARS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, BUT THIS MAN, OKAY, IN OUR AMERICAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM, PEOPLE ARE ARRESTED AT THE SAME PLACE AT THE SAME TIME AND ONE WILL GET MORE YEARS THAN THE OTHER AND YOU'RE TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT, BUT I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

HE WAS A DARN FOOL AND HE WAS PARADING HIMSELF IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE NATION AND THAT JUDGE SAID, HEY, GUESS WHAT, FOOL?

I GOT SOMETHING FOR YOU AND I'M NOT GOING TO FEEL SORRY FOR ANYBODY.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE.

YOU MADE A MOCKERY OF IT.

YOU WERE VIOLENT OR YOU WERE THIS, BUT YOU MADE A MOCKERY OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE AND I'M GOING TO CHARGE YOU HARDER THAN ANYBODY ELSE.

>> HE'S NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF THE SENATE, CLUCK THE SENATORS THEMSELVES.

>> BUT THE GUY WHO BURNED DOWN THE 7-ELEVEN GOT THREE AND A HALF YEARS.

THE GUY -- THE 17th STREET 7-ELEVEN IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS AND -- >> THE VIOLENCE -- >> HE GOT THREE AND A HALF YEARS, SO -- >> ALVIN, YOUR SPEECH IS APPROPRIATE -- FIRST OF ALL, I START OUT BY SAYING I DON'T MIND HIM GETTING THE TIME.

I MIND OTHER NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS NOT GETTING ANYTHING AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE VIOLENT ONCE.

THERE'S A COUPLE HUNDRED OF THEM AND THEY HAVEN'T STARTED SENTENCING MANY OF THEM.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS TO THE VIOLENT -- >> OKAY, OKAY, WELL PUT.

ALVIN REID, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT COMMENTS MADE IN THE PUBLISHED REPORTS THIS WEEK, MAYBE IN YOUR PAPER TOO, ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH ALL THAT INFRASTRUCTURE MONEY.

NOW, THERE'S A PROPOSAL TO MAYBE PUT SOME OF IT BEHIND NORTH-SOUTH METROLINK EXTENSION WHICH WILL GO FROM THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS MAYBE NEAR THE NATIONAL GEOSPATIAL AGENCY INTO NORTH COUNTY, PERHAPS FLORISSANT, FERGUSON, WHEREVER.

OTHER PEOPLE, MYSELF INCLUDED, THINK THAT BUSES ARE MORE FLEXIBLE BUT THERE'S ONLY $51 MILLION IN TAXES RAISED BY A CITY OF ST. LOUIS 2017 SALES TAX INCREASE THAT COULD GO TOWARD THIS.

YOU THINK METROLINK SHOULD BE GOING NORTH?

>> WELL, FROM THE ORIGINAL PLAN AND THE NORTH-SOUTH ROUTE, I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS.

I'M NOT BEING ELITIS, BUT I REMEMBER WHEN I LIVED IN WASHINGTON, D.C., IF YOU TAKE IT TO WHERE PEOPLE ARE WHO CAN RIDE DOWNTOWN OR WHATEVER, NOT TO WORK, BUT JUST TO GET BACK AND FORTH TO THE BALL GAME AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I THINK THAT'S WHERE YOU START BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE MOST POPULAR.

AND FOR ALL THE TALK WE HEAR ABOUT I'LL NEVER GET ON THAT, YEAH, RIGHT, WE WAKE UP TOMORROW AND THERE'S A METRO TRAIN THAT GOES FROM KIRKWOOD OR CHESTERFIELD DOWNTOWN, IT WOULD BE PACKED PRETTY MUCH EVERY DAY, EVERY BUSINESS DAY, FOR PEOPLE GOING TO WORK.

THAT'S THE REALITY THAT OTHER CITIES HAVE DEALT WITH.

WASHINGTON, D.C., THERE WAS A JOKE CALLED THE GREEN LINE COMETH AND THAT WAS THE NORTH TO SOUTH AND IT LOOK FOREVER FOR THEM TO BUILD IT.

THE REST OF THE WHOLE THING HAD BEEN BUILT UP AND WAS SUCCESSFUL AND THEN THEY DID THAT ROUTE.

IT'S ALSO SUCCESSFUL.

BUT THE THINKING WAS, LET'S TAKE IT TO WHERE PEOPLE ARE THAT WILL BE TAKING IT TO, YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY GET TO WORK, BUT FOR LEISURE AND THEY HAVE CARS AND THEY HAVE SOME MONEY AND ALL THAT, BUT IT'S JUST -- >> LIKE THE LITTLE TROLLEY.

>> IT'S CONVENIENT.

>> WELL, I JUST THINK -- >> THE INTERESTING PART OF THAT STORY, TO HEAR MAYOR JONES SAY THAT THIS WAS DROPPED IN MY LAP, BUT SHE AND TIM FITCH ARE STILL CONCERNED ABOUT HOW THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT US IN THE FUTURE AND SHE'S GOING TO TRY TO BRING THE LOOP TROLLEY BACK TO LIFE?

>> I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT METRO.

>> WE ARE, WE ARE, BUT SOMEBODY MENTIONED -- I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING.

>> A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE MONEY OUT THERE, A BILLION DOLLARS FOR MISSOURI.

>> THERE'S $300 BILLION NATIONALLY, WHICH IS ABOUT WHAT THIS IS -- I THINK THAT -- I DISAGREE.

I THINK THAT THE MONEY SHOULD -- IT'S A ONCE IN A GENERATION.

WE ALWAYS SAY WE'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND IT'S ALWAYS -- THIS IS A HUGE INVESTMENT IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE NATIONALLY AND GOOD FOR THE FOLKS WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK THAT FOR SURE, WE OUGHT TO BE LOOKING AT NORTH CITY AND NORTH COUNTY, PEOPLE IN FERGUSON AND PEOPLE IN NORTH CITY HAVE NOT HAD THEIR COMMUNITIES INVESTED IN -- >> THAT'S WHERE THE NEED IS.

>> THAT'S WHERE THE NEED IS, WHERE WE NEED TO INVEST.

AND IN THE DESOTO AREA, YOU HAVE TO HAVE DENSITY.

THAT'S THE ONE THING -- IT AIN'T GOING TO WORK.

>> THEN YOU'RE GOING OUT TO WARREN COUNTY AND JEFFERSON COUNTY AND ST. CHARLES COUNTY IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR DENSITY.

THERE'S NO DENSITY IN NORTH ST. LOUIS.

>> THERE IS DENSITY IN FERGUSON AND NORTH CITY.

>> BUT NOT IN NORTH COUNTY.

>> NOT REALLY, RAY.

HAVE YOU SEEN IT?

>> YES AND I THINK THAT -- >> ONE OUT OF FIVE KIDS MOVED OUT IN THE LAST TEN YEARS.

>> I THINK THE ANSWER IS WE NEED TO ADDRESS NORTH-SOUTH.

>> HOW ABOUT BUSES?

>> TAULBY MAKES A POINT THAT -- >> YOU'RE ON A FIRST-NAME BASIS?

>> ALL RIGHT, SORRY, CALL HIM IN ROACH, WHO I HAD ON MY SHOW AND I KNOW YOU DID, MADE A POINT THAT THEY CAN DO A METROLINK TRAIN THAT PRETTY MUCH FOLLOWS ALONG THE AREA OF THE BUS -- THE MOST POPULAR OR MOST TRAVELED BUS ROUTE IN ST. LOUIS, AND YES, YOU CAN DO BOTH OF THEM, SO I THINK IT DOES MAKE SENSE.

>> WHERE ARE THE CURRENT RIDERS?

THEY'RE DOWN 42%.

>> I THINK YOU NEED TO EXPAND THE SYSTEM.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

>> BUT ALVIN, YOU MENTIONED WASHINGTON, D.C. THAT TOWN IS CONGESTED.

IT'S PACKED.

>> I GOT YOU, BUT MY POINT IS -- >> WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO, CHARLIE?

>> I THINK PER CAR, PER DAY, IF IT RAN WEST TO EAST, THERE WOULD BE MORE PEOPLE ON THOSE CARS EVERY DAY.

>> NOT UNTIL THEY -- >> IF IT WENT DOWN HIGHWAY 40 -- >> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT, BILL.

>> THEY BETTER, THEY BETTER FIX THE DOWNTOWN AREA.

GUARANTEE YOU THOSE AREN'T -- >> YOU KNOW WHY THEY GET BUSES?

THEY'RE FLEXIBLE, CHEAPER, A LOT CHEAPER, AND NOW WITH L.E.D.

SIGNS AT THE BUS STOPS, YOU CAN SAY YOUR NEXT BUS WILL BE HERE IN FIVE MINUTES.

>> WHY DON'T WE RUN BUSES EAST AND WEST THEN?

>> WE DO.

I WOULD DO MORE OF THAT.

>> YOU THINK BUSES ARE BETTER THAN LIGHT RAILCARS?

>> I THINK IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GOING FROM NORTH CITY TO NORTH COUNTY, YES.

WHAT IF THE FOLKS AT THE NGA DECIDE WE WANT TO DRIVE?

IF IT'S A BUS, YOU JUST MOVE IT.

>> THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CARS BROKEN INTO.

>> WHAT'S WRONG WITH -- >> I'M JUST SAYING THAT, ALL RIGHT, WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE TROLLEY?

NOBODY USED IT.

IF I'M GOING TO -- >> DON'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

>> IF MONEY IS GOING TO GO INTO A PROJECT, I WOULD LIKE THE FIRST LINE TO BE HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL.

NO IFS, ANDS AND BUTS AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE MORE SUCCESSFUL IF IT RAN WEST TO EAST AND EAST TO WEST.

THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

>> MAYOR TISHAURA JONES IS GOING TO FOCUS ON NEED FIRST.

>> AND SHE LIKES THE NORTH CITY, NORTH COUNTY -- >> BILL McCLELLAN, WE HAVE TWO MINUTES TO GO.

TWO-MINUTE WARNING ON THE FLOOR, EVERYBODY.

HOMER PHILLIPS, LEGENDARY ST. LOUIS HOSPITAL, PAUL McKEE, DEVELOPER BUILDING A CLINIC IN NORTH ST. LOUIS, HAS NAMED HIS NEW CLINIC HOMER G. PHILLIPS.

LAST WEEK AS ALVIN'S PAPER REPORTED ON THE FRONT PAGE, 25 PROTESTERS.

I UNDERSTAND THERE'S A LOT TO THAT NAME, BUT ARE WE FORGETTING THAT A CLINIC IS ACTUALLY BEING BUILT?

ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT, TOO?

>> WELL, MR. McKEE CAN BUILD A CLINIC IN GOOD FORM, BUT THERE'S ALMOST A RELIGIOUS FEELING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE ABOUT HOMER G. PHILLIPS HOSPITAL AND WHAT THAT HOSPITAL MEANT TO THE AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THE CITY AND HOW IT HELPED BUILD A MIDDLE CLASS AND FOR PAUL McKEE TO TAKE THAT NAME AND JUST STICK ON IT HIS CLINIC, I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE PROTEST AND SAY THIS ISN'T A GOOD MEMORIAL TO SOMETHING THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT.

>> IF NORTH SIDE -- I WOULD JUST SAY TO MR. McKEE TO PLEASE RETHINK THIS BECAUSE IF NORTH SIDE IS THIS TRANSFORM MASSIVE AS WE HOPE IT WILL BE, THEN HOW WOULD HIS FAMILY FEEL IF WE HAD THE PAUL McKEE PARK BENCH INSTEAD -- YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING?

HOMER G. PHILLIPS WAS A TRANSFORMATIONAL HISTORIC FIGURE, AND PAUL McKEE, IF YOU THINK OF IT IN TERMS OF WHAT HE'S TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH NORTHSIDE, IF THAT DOES COME TO FRUITION, IF THAT IS SUCCESSFUL, I THINK THAT SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE GRAND IS -- >> REAL QUICK, HOMER D. PHILLIPS TRAINED MORE BLACK DOCTORS AND NURSES THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

>> BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE WOULD.

>> NOBODY ELSE WOULD.

PEOPLE CAME HERE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> AND IT WAS A FIRST-CLASS INSTITUTION.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> THERE WAS A BOOK ABOUT IT AND THE YOUNG INTERNS WERE GOING TO BE TRAINED AS DOCTORS, WHEN THEY SAW THEY HAD A FIRST-CHAT INSTITUTION -- >> UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

HERE'S THE DEAL, WE GOT THESE LETTER INCLUDING THIS ONE FROM ADELE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU ALL BACK IN THE STUDIO, THE NEW SET LOOKS LOVELY.

COMPLIMENTS TO THE CARPENTER.

THANK YOU.

WE ALSO HEARD FROM MARY RICH WHO WROTE, SEVERAL WEEKS AGO THE SECOND PORTION OF DONNYBROOK FEATURED A DEMOGRAPHER.

THANK YOU, THE DATA AND PERSPECTIVE SHARED COULD INFORM CHANGES IN POLICY.

WE ALSO RECEIVED SOME TWEETS.

REFEREE922, THE ST. LOUIS COMMUNITY COLLEGE IS A VERY GOOD OPTION FOR MANY AND I ATTENDED STARTING IN 1968.

WENDY SAID VO-TECH SHOULD BE A FOCUS.

I AGREE.

HOLY STAR 77 WROTE THE SIX PROGRESSIVE NO VOTES ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL WERE A PER FORMATIVE GESTURE TO THEIR BASE AND IN NO WAY JEOPARDY THE BILL PASSING.

YOU CAN WRITE IT CARE OF NINE PBS, 3655 OLIVE STREET, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108, EMAILS AND TWEETS.

YOU CAN FOLLOW US ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST, APPLE, SO THE TI PHI, GOOGLE PLAY AND TUNE-IN.

DON'T GO AWAY BECAUSE IN JUST A MOMENT, NEXT UP, TONY MESSENGER, THE PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING COLUMNIST FOR THE ST. LOUIS TOUCHDOWN WILL BE GRILLED BY RAY HARTMANN AND BILL McCLELLAN AS HE DISCUSSES HIS NEW BOOK, "PROFIT AND PUNISHMENT."

THAT'S NEXT ON NEXT UP.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> WELL, WELCOME BACK TO NEXT UP.

IS IT UP NEXT OR -- >> NEXT UP.

>> NEXT UP.

BILL McCLELLAN, MY FELLOW FOUNDER AND I ARE HAPPY TO HOST POST-DISPATCH COLUMNIST AND SOON TO BE BEST SELLING AUTHOR TONY MESSENGER.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, RAY AND BILLS ABOUT GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> WE WERE JUST MUSING BEFORE WE CAME OUT THAT BETWEEN THE THREE OF US, WE SHARE OVER A CENTURY IN JOURNALISM AND A PULITZER PRIZE.

>> YES, WE DO.

YES, WE DO.

>> WE HAVE A PULITZER AND I BELIEVE IT BELONGS TO YOU AND I BELIEVE IT IS ON THE SUBJECT OF THIS -- THE VERY SUBJECT WITH WHICH YOU EXPANDED ON THIS BOOK "PROFIT AND PUNISHMENT: HOW AMERICA CRIMINALIZING THE POOR IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE."

TONY, TELL US WHY AND HOW YOU WENT ABOUT PUTTING THIS BOOK TOGETHER.

>> YOU KNOW, THE BOOING WAS THOUGHT ABOUT ORG -- BOOK AS THOUGHT ABOUT ORIGINALLY IN THE COLUMNS I WROTE ABOUT DEBTORS PRISONS IN MISSOURI AND AS I WAS WORKING ON THOSE COLUMNS, I REALIZED THIS IS REALLY A NATIONAL PROBLEM.

EVERY STATE HAS A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH FINES AND FEES THAT TAKE POOR PEOPLE AND TIE THEM TO THE CYCLE OF POVERTY BECAUSE OF HOW THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS USED IN EVERY STATE IN THIS COUNTRY IN SOME CAPACITY TO TRY TO EXTRACT WEALTH FROM POOR PEOPLE.

AND IT HAS DEVASTATING EFFECTS ON PEOPLE'S LIVES AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I REALLY WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THIS IS AS I WAS WORKING ON THOSE STORIES IN MISSOURI, I REALIZED THAT THIS WAS A PART OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT MOST OF US DON'T SEE.

YOU KNOW, WE -- MANY OF US, I CAN SPEAK FOR MYSELF, I HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, I HAVE GOTTEN TICKETS FOR NOT PAYING THE SPEEDING TICKET OR NOT UPPING MY LICENSE PLATES AND ENDING UP IN JAIL AND BEING ABLE TO JUST BAIL OUT AND WRITE A CHECK AND MAKE THE WHOLE PROBLEM GO AWAY.

THE PEOPLE IN THIS BOOK DON'T HAVE THE FUNDS AND THE CAPACITY TO MAKE THE PROBLEM GO AWAY, AND IT AFFECTS THEM IN MANY CASES FOR A DECADE OR LONGER IN THEIR LIVES.

>> TONY, LET ME ASK YOU A PERSONAL QUESTION HERE.

I REMEMBER WHEN YOU SUCCEEDED ME AS METRO COLUMNIST AT THE POST-DISPATCH AND YOU WERE COMING OVER FROM EDITORIAL AND I THOUGHT, THIS GUY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS TO WRITE FOUR COLUMNS A WEEK.

HE'S GOING TO STUMBLE A LITTLE BIT.

YOU NOT ONLY DIDN'T STUMBLE, YOU WON A PULITZER PRIZE AND NOW YOU'VE WRITTEN A BOOK.

I KNOW YOU HAVE TWO TEENAGERS.

WHERE DO YOU FIND THE TIME?

AND YOUR COLUMNS ARE ALWAYS WELL-RESEARCHED.

WHERE DO YOU FIND THE TIME TO DO THIS?

>> MY WIFE TELLS A STORY, IN FACT, MY WIFE AND KID S BOTH LIKE TO TELL THE STORY.

WE TOOK A VACATION THIS SUMMER, OUR FIRST POST-COVID VACATION AND WE WENT TO YELLO STONE FOR A WHILE AND VISIT THE GRANDKIDS AND MY WIFE SAID, HEY KIDS, GUESS WHAT?

DAD PROMISES HE'S NOT GOING TO WORK ON THIS VACATION.

I WAS REALLY TAUGHT WHEN MY KIDS JUMPED INTO THE CONVERSATION AND SAID THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE I WASN'T DID GO TO WORK ON VACATION AND THEY ALL STARTED TELLING STORIES, YOU REMEMBER THAT ONE TIME WHEN DAD MADE MOM DRIVE HOME FROM COLORADO BECAUSE HE HAD TO WORK -- REMEMBER THAT ONE TIME -- >> IT'S A FUNNY STORY, BUT THE REALITY OF JOURNALISM THAT WE PRACTICE AS COLUMNISTS, THE JOB DOESN'T HAVE 9:00 TO 5:00 HOURS AND IT DOESN'T END VERY OFTEN AND SOMETIMES I TAKE THAT TIME AWAY FROM MY FAMILY.

BUT TO, I GUESS, SOMEWHAT TO MY CREDIT, AND I THINK MY KIDS AND WIFE WOULD BACK ME UP ON IT, THIS SUMMER WHEN WE TOOK THE TWO WEEKS TOGETHER, I DID NOT WORK ON MY VACATION.

SO I'M -- YOU KNOW, I'M LEARNING.

YOU CAN TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICKS.

>> I'M A COMMUNIST TOO -- A COLUMNIST, TOO, LIKE YOU GUYS, BUT NOT FOUR DAYS A WEEK.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS PROBLEM A LITTLE BIT.

IT SEEMS IN THIS BLUE SILO/RED SILO WORLD WE LIVE IN, THIS IS ONE THAT IN SOME WAYS CUTS ACROSS THAT.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY PREDICTABLE WHO'S GOING TO BE ON WHAT SIDE.

IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY FAIR TO SAY AND I'VE GOT A CHAPTER IN THE BOOK THAT TALKS ABOUT THE ACLU AND THE KOCH BROTHERS COMING TOGETHER ON THIS ISSUE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE TYRANNY OF GOVERNMENT EXTRACTING WEALTH FROM POOR PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE REASONS, YOU KNOW, REGULAR READERS OF THE POST-DISPATCH KNOW I LIKE TO WRITE A LOT ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

IT'S BECOME THE TOPIC THAT SORT OF HAS -- IS IN MY WHEELHOUSE FREQUENTLY, AND ONE OF THE REASONS I LIKE TO WRITE ABOUT IT IS BECAUSE IT'S SO BIPARTISAN.

AND I EXPLORE A LITTLE BIT IN THE BOOK, I'M NOT SURE I GET TO THE ANSWER SPECIFICALLY, BUT I EXPLORE A LITTLE BIT IN THE BOOK WHY IT IS THAT FOLKS FROM BOTH THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND -- I KNOW THEY HAVE IN MISSOURI AND THEY HAVE TO SOME DEGREE NATIONALLY AS WELL, I TALK ABOUT SOME BIPARTISAN LEGISLATION THAT'S HAPPENING IN CONGRESS WHERE FOLKS ARE UNDERSTANDING THAT USING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AS A BACKDOOR TAXING SYSTEM, FORCING JUDGES TO BE TAX COLLECTORS AND IN EFFECT PUTTING POOR PEOPLE BACK IN DEBTORS PRISON BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY FINES AND FEES THAT ARE INTENDED TO FUND OUR GOVERNMENT, IS A BAD, INEFFICIENT, UNCONSTITUTIONAL WAY TO OPERATE OUR GOVERNMENT.

AND I HOPE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE COME AWAY FROM WHEN THEY READ THE BOOK, IS THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAY IN WHICH OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS MORPHED INTO A SYSTEM THAT IS BEING USED BY LAWMAKERS AS A TAX COLLECTION SCHEME DOESN'T WORK.

IT DIDN'T WORK IN FERGUSON, IT DIDN'T WORK IN NORTH ST. LOUIS COUNTY, IT DOESN'T WORK IN RURAL MISSOURI, IT DOESN'T WORK IN OKLAHOMA OR SOUTH CAROLINA, TWO OF THE STATES THAT I FOCUSED ON.

IT DOESN'T WORK IN MINNESOTA, COLORADO, AND NEW YORK.

IT JUST -- IT'S BAD GOVERNMENT.

IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND IT HURTS PEOPLE WHO SERVE THEIR TIME, ADMIT TO THEIR CRIME, AND WANT TO GET BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES AND WANT TO GET BACK TO THEIR JOBS AND AROUND ALLOWED TO BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS TRYING TO COLLECT MORE MONEY FROM THEM.

NOT BECAUSE THEY'VE COMMITTED OTHER CRIMES, BUT JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE POOR AND THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY FOR THEIR TIME IN JAIL OR ALL OF THESE OTHER FINES AND FEES THAT LAWMAKERS DECIDED THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO PAY IN ORDER TO FUND SOME OTHER ELEMENT OF GOVERNMENT.

>> WELL, YOU KIND OF BLAME GROWER NORQUIST AND MEL HANCOCK FOR THIS, DON'T YOU?

>> TO SOME DEGREE.

THERE'S A PART OF THIS PROBLEM THAT IS RELATED TO THE CONCEPT THAT MISSOURI REPUBLICANS ARE FAMILIAR WITH IN WHICH GROVER NORQUIST HAD EVERYBODY SIGN THIS MONTH NEW TAXES.

NO NEW TAXES REALLY BECAME A PROBLEM AFTER THE LAST GREAT RECESSION AROUND 2008 BECAUSE STATE GOVERNMENTS' REVENUE DRIED UP AND ALL OF THESE STATES, YOU KNOW, THREE OF THE ONES THAT I FOCUSED ON THE MOST IN THE BOOK, SOUTH CAROLINA, MISSOURI, AND OKLAHOMA, ALL STATES THAT HAVE REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES IN WHICH PEOPLE HAVE SIGN THE NO NEW TAXES PLEDGE.

WELL, THEIR STATES RAN OUT OF MONEY AND THEY NEEDED MONEY, BUT THEY HAVE LAWMAKERS WHO WOULDN'T RAISE TAXES.

SO WHAT DID THEY DO?

THEY TURN TO THE COURTS AND PASSED ALL THESE FINES AND FEES IN ORDER TO PAY FOR THINGS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COURTS.

BUT THAT WAY, LAWMAKERS COULD SAY, I DIDN'T RAISE YOUR TAXES.

BUT IN EFFECT, THEY -- BUT ONLY ON POOR PEOPLE BECAUSE 80% OF THE PEOPLE THAT OUR COURTS DEAL WITH ARE GENERALLY POOR PEOPLE.

THEY'RE PEOPLE WHO QUALIFY FOR THE PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM.

SO THINK ABOUT HOW INEFFICIENT THAT IS.

INSTEAD OF PASSING A TAX ON THE BROAD, ENTIRE, YOU KNOW, STATE TAX BASE, WE'RE INSTEAD SAYING AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY, LET'S JUST GET THE PEOPLE WHO GOT A SPEEDING TICKET, WHO STOLE MASCARA FROM WALMART, WHO, YOU KNOW, COMMITTED A VARIETY OF VARIOUS MISDEMEANOR CRIMES AND ENDED UP IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

LET'S FIND A WAY TO EXTRACT MORE MONEY FROM THEM SO THAT LAWMAKERS CAN GET AWI WAWAY WITH SAYING I DIDN'T RAISE TAXES, BUT YET SOMEHOW SAY THEY SOLVED THE STATE'S REVENUE PROBLEM.

>> NOW, ONE OF YOUR ALLIES, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, IN REFORMING MISSOURI WAS ERIC SCHMIDT WHEN HE WAS A LEGISLATOR.

WASN'T HE INSTRUMENTAL IN TRYING TO GET A CAP ON WHAT MUNICIPALITIES COULD -- THE PERCENTAGE MUNICIPALITIES COULD GET FOR THEIR REVENUE FROM THESE FINES?

>> HE ABSOLUTELY WAS.

BEFORE ERIC SCHMITT DECIDED TO RUN FOR SENATE AND PRETEND THAT HE WAS A TRUMPITE, HE WAS ACTUALLY SOMEBODY WHO, AS A STATE SENATOR AND VERY EARLY IN HIS JOB AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, STOOD ITEM FOR POOR PEOPLE ON THIS ISSUE AND TRIED TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE TYRANNY OF THE STATE IN TERMS OF TRYING TO USE THEM AS A FINANCIAL RESOURCE BECAUSE THEY HAPPENED TO BE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IT'S ACTUALLY A GUILT THAT I DEAL WITH AS RELATES TO THIS BOOK BECAUSE WHEN YOU READ THIS BOOK, ERIC SCHMITT IS A MODERATE, DECENT, SMART GUY WHO IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE THE PERSON HE'S CAMPAIGNING AS RIGHT NOW FOR THE U.S. SENATE.

BUT AS IT RELATES TO THIS BOOK AND THE TIME THAT IT CAPTURES OF ERIC SCHMITT, HE WAS ABSOLUTELY A GOOD CHARACTER IN THIS BOOK BECAUSE THE PASSAGE OF SENATE BILL 5 THAT SAID THAT CITIES COULD NO LONGER USE X-AMOUNT OF REVENUE FROM TICKETS AND DRIVING OFFENSES TO FUND THEIR BUDGETS, THAT WAS A REALLY GOOD BILL.

THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT CHANGE IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI.

THE AMICUS BRIEF THAT HE FILED HIS FIRST MONTH IN OFFICE AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THE RICHIE AND WRIGHT CASES THAT SAID THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI TO SEND A POOR PERSON BACK TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY FOR THEIR PREVIOUS BILL IN JAIL.

THOSE WERE GOOD THINGS, AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS BOOK, HE COMES ACROSS AS A VERY GOOD CHARACTER.

I WISH HE WAS RUNNING FOR SENATE ON THOSE THINGS, BUT HE'S NOT.

>> ALONG THOSE LINES, ARE YOU CONCERN HE MIGHT TRY TO BAN THIS BOOK BEFORE IT COMES OUT, THAT HE'S A MODERATE?

>> BAN IT, BURN IT, SOMETHING.

>> THE PARSON ADMINISTRATION IS SUING THE POST-DISPATCH.

IF YOU CAN CRIMINALIZE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING, MAYBE HE'LL DO THAT AS WELL.

>> I HOPE HE READS THE BOOK AND RECOGNIZES HIMSELF IN IT, THE PERSON HE USED TO BE, AND LIKE IT.

>> I WAS THINKING ERIC GREITENS -- OKAY, ENOUGH ABOUT THE BOOK.

LET'S TALK ABOUT -- NO.

[ LAUGHTER ] SO THIS IS YOUR FIRST BOOK?

>> IT IS.

>> I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT.

>> IT IS, MY FIRST BOOK.

>> COMES OUT DECEMBER 7th.

>> COMES OUT DECEMBER 7th.

>> PEARL HARBOR DAY.

>> I'LL BE DOING A TALK AND BOOK SIGNING AT ST. LOUIS COUNTY LIBRARY ON DECEMBER 10th.

I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT, SO FOLKS WHO HAVEN'T BOUGHT IT YET CAN DEFINITELY GET A COPY THERE AND I'M EXCITED FOR IT.

WRITING A BOOK WAS A CHALLENGE.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I THINK A LOT OF JOURNALISTS WANT TO WRITE A BOOK AND TALK ABOUT IT.

I LEARNED A LOT DURING THIS PROCESS.

>> BILL, HOW MANY BOOKS DO YOU HAVE?

>> ACTUALLY, I DID A BOOK, RAY.

I DID TWO CRIME BOOKS.

>> AND YOU HAVE HAD A COLLECTION OF COLUMNS.

>> I'VE HAD A COUPLE OF COLLECTIONS OF COLUMNS, BUT THEY'RE SORT OF -- >> BUT I WANT TO GET TO THE POINT HERE.

SO YOU HAVE THREE -- >> I JUST HAVE ONE.

>> SO AGAIN, BETWEEN US, WE HAVE FOUR.

ON A SERIES OF -- THIS IS A SEGUE, YOU CALL IT.

THIS BOOK IS NOT -- I MEAN, YOU GOT THE PULITZER VERY DESERVEDLY FOR YOUR WORK IN THIS AREA, BUT FROM LOOKING AT IT, THIS IS NOT SIMPLY A COLLECTION OF COLUMNS.

>> NO, IT'S NOT.

MOST OF THE REPORTING IN THIS BOOK IS NEW.

THE IDEA CAME OUT OF THE REPORTING THAT I DID IN MISSOURI AND SOME OF THE REPORTING I DID IN MISSOURI IS VERY MUCH IN THIS BOOK, BUT THERE'S NEW CHARACTERS IN THIS BOOK.

THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT THE PROBLEM THAT I IDENTIFIED IN MISSOURI, TAKEN NATIONAL AND LOOKING AT HOW THIS IS A PROBLEM ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> SO WHAT PERCENTAGE WOULD YOU SAY IS PURELY NEW STUFF THAT POST-DISPATCH READERS MIGHT NOT -- >> PROBABLY ABOUT 80%.

>> REALLY?

SO ON TOP OF ALL THE WORK YOU DO, THIS IS ALL NEW REPORTING.

>> THEY'LL RECOGNIZE SOME OF THE CHARACTERS I WROTE ABOUT IN MY COLUMNS, BUT EVEN WITH SOME OF THEM, FOR INSTANCE, BROOK BERGEN, ONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK, I TALKED TO HER A LOT OVER THE LAST COUPLE YEARS BEFORE SHE DIED ABOUT HER STORY AS IT WAS CONTINUING AND A LOT OF THAT IS IN THIS BOOK AS WELL.

>> WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN EASIER JUST TO STICK TO THE STUFF YOU'D ALREADY WRITTEN?

[ LAUGHTER ] TONY, I REMEMBER WHEN YOU WROTE THOSE COLUMNS AND THEY RESULTED IN CHANGES.

I MEAN, THE MISSOURI SUPREME COURT, EVERYBODY AGREED THAT THIS WAS WRONG HAVING POOR PEOPLE BE THE CASH REGISTER FOR ALL THESE MUNICIPALITIES.

AND LAWS WERE CHANGED AND WE ARGUED ON THIS SHOW ONE TIME ABOUT THE LEGISLATURE HAD DETERMINED THAT, LIKE ONLY 40 -- NO MORE THAN 40% OF YOUR REVENUE COULD COME FROM FINES AND IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, IT WAS A LOWER NUMBER, LIKE 12% OR 20%.

HAVE THOSE CHANGES BEEN SOLID OR HAVE THEY BEEN CHIPPED AWAY AT?

>> I THINK THEY'VE BEEN SOLID.

I DON'T THINK THEY'RE -- WE'RE NOT DONE WITH CHANGE YET.

YOU CAN STILL CHARGE PEOPLE FOR TIME IN JAIL IN MISSOURI AND MOST RURAL COUNTIES STILL DO.

THERE ARE STILL OPPORTUNITIES FOR JUDGES TO SORT OF, INSTEAD OF PUTTING PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR FAILING TO PAY THEIR BOARD BILL, THEY MIGHT CALL IT A PROBATION VIOLATION.

THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE IN MISSOURI GOING TO JAIL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THEIR FINES AND FEES, AND SOME JUDGES ARE JUST CHANGING THE TERMINOLOGY, REFERRING TO EVERYTHING AS RESTITUTION OR EVERYTHING AS A PROBATION VIOLATION.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE THE MISSOURI SUPREME COURT AND THE MISSOURI LEGISLATURE IN THEIR VERY IMPORTANT ACTIONS SOLVED THE PROBLEM.

THERE'S STILL A PROBLEM IN MISSOURI, AND THE PROBLEM IS GOING TO EXIST AS LONG AS WE HAVE A HIGH LEVEL OF FINES AND FEES APPROVED BY THE STATE OF MISSOURI AND APPROVED BY LOCAL JURISDICTIONS, THAT WE EXPECT OUR COURTS TO COLLECT AS PART OF THE PROCESS OF MOVING PEOPLE THROUGH THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

AND THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.

WHEN WE BREAK LAWS OR ARE ACCUSED OF BREAKING LAWS, WE SHOULD NOT ALSO BE SEEN BY THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO COLLECT EXTRA TAXES.

>> AND JUST SO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, IF A FELLOW GETS BUSTED ON A MINOR CHARGE BUT CAN'T GET BAIL BECAUSE HE HAS NO MONEY AND HE GETS PUT IN JAIL AND HE STAYS IN JAIL FOR 30 DAYS, THE COUNTY THEN CHARGES HIM ROOM AND BOARD FOR THOSE 30 DAYS AND, OF COURSE, YOU CAN'T COME UP WITH THAT, SO THAT'S A PROBATION VIALS.

>> RIGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS -- PROBLEM BRAITION VIALS.

>> RIGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN RURAL MISSOURI.

IN ST. LOUIS AND KANSAS CITY, THERE ARE VERY FEW JURISDICTIONS THAT ACTUALLY CHARGE FOR JAIL TIME BECAUSE WE HAVE LARGER TAX BASES, BUT ALMOST EVERY RURAL COUNTY EXCEPT FOR TWO IN MISSOURI CHARGE FOR TIME IN JAIL.

WHAT HAPPENS, WHEN YOU DESIGN THIS -- AND I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK.

WHEN YOU COMBINE IT WITH LARGE BAIL AMOUNTS, AND THAT STILL HAPPENS IN A LOT OF SMALL COUNTIES FOR SMALL OFFENSES, AND THEN YOU COMBINE IT WITH THE FACT THAT THE PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM IS UNDERFUNDED AND SO WHILE THEY'RE IN JAIL AND THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY THEIR BAIL, THEY'RE WAITING FOR AN EXTRA 10, 20, 30 DAYS TO EVEN MEET WITH THEIR PUBLIC DEFENDER SO MAYBE THE PUBLIC DEFENDER CAN FILE A MOTION TO REDUCE THE BAIL.

ALL THAT WORKS TO THIS SITUATION WHERE EVENTUALLY THE PROSECUTOR COMES TO THIS POOR PERSON WHO'S STUCK IN JAIL AND THEY'VE LOST THEIR CAR, THEY'VE LOST THEIR JOB, THEIR KIDS ARE BEEN TO BE TAKEN AWAY OR MAYBE MOM'S WATCHING THEM OR GRANDMA OR SOMEBODY, AND THE PROSECUTOR SAYS, YOU KNOW WHAT?

YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HERE.

LET'S GET YOU OUT OF JAIL.

YOU JUST NEED GUILTY, WE'LL DO TIME SERVED AND IT'S ALL GOOD, RIGHT?

AND YOU'RE A POOR PERSON AND YOU'RE IN JAIL AND YOU'RE LIKE, DARN RIGHT I'LL SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE!

AND YOU SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE AND YOU GET TIME SERVED, BUT YOU DON'T REALLY GET TIME SERVED BECAUSE THE MOMENT YOU GET OUT OF JAIL, YOU GET A BILL FOR YOUR TIME IN JAIL THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY.

THEN YOU ALSO GET A TWO- OR THREE- OR FOUR- OR FIVE-YEAR PROBATION PERIOD THAT SAYS IF YOU VIOLATE YOUR PROBATION, YOU GO BACK TO JAIL.

GUESS WHO'S SUPERVISING THAT PROBATION IF YOU COMMIT A MISDEMEANOR IN MOST COUNTIES IN MISSOURI?

A FOR-PROFIT PROBATION COMPANY WHOSE INCENTIVE IS TO GET REPEAT BUSINESS.

SO THEY VIOLATE YOU, THEY GO BACK TO THE JUDGE AND THEY SAY THIS PERSON MISSED A MEETING, THEY FAILED A DRUG TEST.

DOESN'T MATTER THEY WEREN'T CHARGED WITH A DRUG OFFENSE.

THEY WERE CHARGED WITH SHOPLIFTING, THEY'RE A DRUG ADDICT FROM DENT COUNTY AND THEY'RE ON OPIOIDS OR METH OR WHATEVER THE DRUG HAPPENS TO BE AT THAT TIME AND JEFFCO AND DENT AND ST. FRANCIS COUNTY, AND NOW THEY VIOLATED THEIR PROBATION.

THE FOR-PROFIT COMPANY GOES TO THE JUDGE AND SAYS VIOLATED THEIR PROBATION.

PROSECUTOR SAYS PUT THEM BACK IN JAIL.

THEY GO BACK IN JAIL, NOT BECAUSE THEY COMMITTED ANOTHER CRIME, BUT BECAUSE THE FOR-PROFIT PROBATION COMPANY SAYS THEY WEREN'T FOLLOWING ALL THE RULES.

NOW THEY COME OUT OF JAIL AND THEY OWE MORE MONEY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO PAY BECAUSE THEY GET CHARGE THE FOR THEIR JAIL TIME AGAIN AND THE CYCLE JUST CONTINUES AND CONTINUES AND CONTINUES AND DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO KEEP US SAFE.

>> YOU HAD A THING IN THE BOOK, MENTION IN THE BOOK ABOUT -- I THINK IT WAS LaGRANGE IN GEORGIA, LITTLE TOWN.

>> YES, YES.

>> WHERE THEY -- IF YOU WERE BEHIND ON YOUR FINES FOR TRAFFIC, THEY COULD CUT OFF YOUR ELECTRICITY AND WATER.

>> YEAH, THEY CUT OFF YOUR ELECTRICITY AND WATER, AND NOW YOU'RE HOMELESS.

>> I THOUGHT, I'M SURE THERE'S MUNICIPALITIES IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY LOOKING AT THAT, AND THINKING WE DIDN'T WE THINK OF THAT?

>> THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST OFFENSIVE THINGS I FOUND IN THE BOOK AND IN LaGRANGE, THE VICTIMS OF THAT SCHEME ARE OVERWHELMINGLY PEOPLE OF COLOR.

80% OR SO OF THE VICTIMS OF THAT SCHEME WHO GET THEIR UTILITIES CUT OFF IN THAT TOWN OUTSIDE ATLANTA ARE BLACK PEOPLE OR HISPANIC PEOPLE.

NOW, THEY FILED A LAWSUIT.

IT MADE ITS WAY THROUGH THE COURTS.

THEY EVENTUALLY GOT THAT POLICY CHANGED, BUT THE FACT THAT UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, CITIES WERE CUTTING OFF YOUR UTILITIES BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T AFFORD TO PAY YOUR FINES AND FEES IN CRIMINAL CASES, THAT JUST GIVES YOU AN IDEA OF HOW MASSIVE THIS PROBLEM IS, THAT WE'VE JUST LOST OUR CONNECTION TO REALITY WHEN WE'RE USING OUR COURTS TO CRIMINALIZE POVERTY, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

>> TONY, IF I CAN BORROW FROM THE JACKET OF YOUR BOOK, SENATOR CLAIRE McCASKILL SAYS YOUR PULITZER PRIZE WINNING SERIES ON DEBTORS PRISON IN MISSOURI MADE A SERIOUS DIFFERENCE IN REAL PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND, THE BOOK IS A MUST-READ FOR A NATION SEEKING A BIPARTISAN PATH FORWARD ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

IT'S GOT TO BE SATISFYING TO YOU WHEN YOU GET -- WHEN YOU DO MAKE A DIDNFFERENCE.

I'M CURIOUS, TWO KINDS OF FEEDBACK YOU GET.

ONE, IN THE BOOK -- AND IT'S NOT OUT YET, BUT THE STORIES YOU TELL, WHAT KIND OF FEEDBACK DO YOU GET FROM THE FAMILIES?

DO THEY STAY IN TOUCH WITH YOU, THE PEOPLE YOU'VE REALLY HELPED WITH YOUR JOURNALISM?

AND ALSO, DO YOU EVER GET FEEDBACK FROM THE BAD GUYS, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE -- HAS ANYBODY EVER SAID, GEE, THIS IS AN EPIPHANY, MAYBE WE NEED TO CHANGE THINGS, OR DO THEY JUST, THESE FOR-PROFIT COMPANIES, MAYBE NOT SO FRIENDLY?

WHAT KIND OF FEEDBACK DO YOU GET?

>> WHEN I STARTED WRITING COLUMNS ON THIS TOPIC, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I GET FROM READERS IS IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME, DON'T DO THE CRIME.

THAT TYPICAL SORT OF REACTION.

I'LL START A CONVERSATION WITH THEM AND I'LL SAY, OKAY, SO WHAT'S THE END POINT?

SHOULD WE HAVE, IN MISSOURI, THE DEATH PENALTY FOR SHOPLIFTING?

AND THEY'LL SAY, OH, COME ON, TONY, THAT'S INSANE.

OKAY, SO WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT THERE SHOULD BE A LIMIT SOMEWHERE, THAT SOME CRIMES ARE WORTH X AND SOME CRIMES ARE WORTH Y.

SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DEBATING NOW.

IF SOMEBODY SHOPLIFTS AND THEY AGREE THAT THEY SHOPLIFTED, AND THEY PAID THEIR PENALTY TO SOCIETY, THEY WENT TO JAIL AND THEY SERVED THEIR TIME, SHOULD THEY BE DONE?

SHOULD THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RAISE THEIR KIDS AND GO GET A MINIMUM WAGE JOB AND LIVE THEIR LIFE?

OR SHOULD WE KEEP THEM TETHERED TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE POOR?

AND EVENTUALLY I -- WHEN YOU CAN ENGAGE IN THOSE SORTS OF CONVERSATIONS, PEOPLE SORT OF COME AROUND.

THAT TO ME HAS BEEN THE FASCINATING PART OF THIS STORY IS I'VE HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH JUDGES, WITH LAWYERS, WITH CONSERVATIVES AND WITH LIBERALS THAT DON'T ALWAYS START ON THE SAME PAGE ON A PARTICULAR CRIME.

I WROTE ABOUT A BLACK WOMAN FROM ST. LOUIS WHO GOT A SPEEDING TICKET IN LAFAYETTE COUNTY AND HAD TO GO THERE TO DO WEEKEND JAIL SOMETIME BECAUSE THE COUNTY WANTED THEIR JAIL MONEY.

AND SHE TRIED TO DO JAIL IN ST. LOUIS.

SHE ACTUALLY GOT THE ST. LOUIS JAIL TO SAY, HEY, WE'LL PUT HER UP HERE SO SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO DRIVE ACROSS THE COUNTY, BUT LAFAYETTE COUNTY WANTED THE MONEY.

THEY SAID, NO, NO, WE'RE GOING TO MAKE HER DRIVE ACROSS THE COUNTY AND COME DO HER WEEKEND JAIL TIME HERE.

AND WHEN I FIRST WROTE ABOUT HER, PEOPLE WERE LIKE, WELL, SHE DID DRIVE 100 MILES AN HOUR.

YEAH, SHE DID.

HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN 100 MILES AN HOUR AND NOT GOT CAUGHT?

I KNOW SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THAT.

SO EVERYTHING BECOMES A QUESTION ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL FAIRNESS.

ONE OF THE STORIES THAT I TELL IN THE BOOK, AND THIS IS ONE THAT I ALSO TOLD AT LEAST IN INSTALL SMALL -- IN SMALL PART IN A COLUMN WHEN I WAS WRITING THE SERIES, IS ABOUT THE TIME I GOT ARRESTED FOR NOT PAYING A TRAFFIC TICKET AND I FORGOT ABOUT IT AND I GOT PULLED OVER BECAUSE MY TAGS HAD EXPIRED, SOMETHING WE TALK ABOUT IN ST. LOUIS ALL THE TIME.

AND I'M A WHITE MIDDLE CLASS GUY AND ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY, MY OLDER DAUGHTER WAS AT HOME WATCHING MY YOUNGER KID.

AND I GOT TAKEN TO THE POLICE STATION AND I GOT FINGERPRINTED, AND THE POLICE OFFICER ASKED ME, YOU KNOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY MONEY WITH YOU?

I'M LIKE, YEAH, IT WAS PAY DAY, I THINK I GOT 80 BUCKS IN MY WALLET?

DO I HAVE PERMISSION TO CHECK IT?

SHE WENT AND LOOKED IN MY WALLET AND CHECKED IT AND SAID YOUR BILL IS 80 BUCKS.

I SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE AND I DROVE HOME AND I DIDN'T LOSE MY CAR AND I DIDN'T LOSE MY KIDS AND I DIDN'T LOSE MY JOB AND I DIDN'T END UP WITH MY NAME IN THE PAPER AND MY MUGSHOT IN THE PAPER AND I HAD NO REPERCUSSIONS.

I PAID MY SPEEDING TICKET AND THAT WAS IT.

THAT'S WHAT GENERALLY HAPPENS TO MIDDLE CLASS WHITE PEOPLE.

THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU'RE A POOR BLACK PERSON IN NORTH ST. LOUIS COUNTY WHEN YOU GET PULLED OVER IN THAT EXACT SAME SITUATION.

AND BY THE WAY, YOU GET PULLED OVER A HECK OF A LOT MORE THAN SOMEBODY WHO LOOKS LIKE ME.

THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU'RE A MIDDLE CLASS WHITE PERSON OR A POOR WHITE PERSON IN RURAL MISSOURI OR RURAL OKLAHOMA OR RURAL MISSISSIPPI, IN A COUNTY THAT'S TRYING TO COLLECT THE MONEY.

AND SO ONE OF THE DRIVING FACTORS FOR ME AS I WROTE THESE STORIES AND I MET THESE PEOPLE WHO OPENED UP THEIR LIVES TO ME WAS JUST RECOGNIZING THAT PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME AND HAVE MY LIVED EXPERIENCE DON'T SEE THIS SIDE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

BUT IF YOU'RE A POOR PERSON, WHETHER YOU'RE WHITE OR BLACK OR HISPANIC OR ASIAN AMERICAN, THIS IS THE WORLD YOU SEE WHEN YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE TETHERED TO IT FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE A CRIMINAL OR YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO COMMIT CRIMES, BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU'RE POOR.

>> YOU KNOW, I KNOW A GOOD WAY TO END AN INTERVIEW WHEN I SEE ONE.

THAT'S IT.

TONY MESSENGER, PULITZER PRIZE WINNING TONY MESSENGER, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

THE BOOK IS "PROFIT AND PUNISHMENT: HOW AMERICA CRIMINALIZES THE POOR IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE."

I HOPE EVERYBODY GETS OUT AND BUYS IT WHEN IT COMES OUT IN A COUPLE WEEKS.

THANKS AGAIN TO TAKING THE TIME TO BE HERE.

>> THANKS, RAY.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.