>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": AS AN HISTORIC ELECTION IN BOSTON COMES TO A CLOSE, WE'RE TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT ISSUES OF RACE AND SEGREGATION THE NEW MAYOR WILL CONFRONT.

FIRST, WITH NEW DATA PUBLISHED IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE" SHOWING RACIAL SEGREGATION ACROSS THE CITY, NOT JUST WHERE WE LIVE BUT WHERE WE TRAVEL, SOCIALIZE, AND SPEND OUR MONEY.

THE MAN BEHIND THAT DATA, HARVARD PROFESSOR ROBERT SAMPSON AND BOSTON NAACP PRESIDENT TANISHA SULLIVAN JOIN ME.

PLUS, GBH NEWS' PHILLIP MARTIN IS HERE, OFF A RECENT TRIP TO ATLANTA, WHERE HE SPOKE WITH SEVERAL FORMER BLACK BOSTONIANS WHO ESCAPED AN UNWELCOMING CITY FOR A WELCOMING ONE.

>> Braude: THE FINAL BALLOTS ARE BEING CAST IN 55 COMMUNITIES ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS, INCLUDING BOSTON, WHERE VOTERS ARE MAKING BIG DECISIONS ON BALLOT QUESTIONS, CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, AND, OF COURSE, THE CITY'S NEXT MAYOR.

AND WHETHER IT'S ANNISSA ESSAIBI GEORGE OR MICHELLE WU, THE WINNER WILL MAKE HISTORY AS THE FIRST WOMAN AND THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR EVER ELECTED TO LEAD BOSTON.

THE NEW MAYOR WON'T HAVE MUCH TIME TO TRANSITION INTO THE JOB.

SHE'LL TAKE OVER FOR ACTING MAYOR KIM JANEY LATER THIS MONTH.

AND WHEN SHE DOES, SHE'LL HAVE TO HIT THE GROUND RUNNING ON A NUMBER OF PROBLEMS FACING THE CITY.

CHIEF AMONG THEM: ISSUES OF SYSTEMIC RACISM AND SEGREGATION, MANY OF WHICH WERE ONCE AGAIN LAID OUT ANEW IN RESEARCH REPORTED ON IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE," AMASSED BY A HARVARD PROFESSOR WHO'S BEEN STUDYING CELL PHONE DATA TO GET A BETTER PICTURE OF HOUSING AND SOCIAL SEGREGATION ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ACCORDING TO HIS DATA, NOT ONLY DO BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE IN THE CITY OFTEN LIVE IN SEPARATE COMMUNITIES, THEIR MOVEMENTS ARE SEGREGATED, TOO.

THEY WORK, SHOP, AND SOCIALIZE MOSTLY IN NEIGHBORHOODS JUST LIKE THEIRS.

THE RESEARCH SHOWS SEGREGATION BASED ON WEALTH AND INCOME, BUT AS THE REPORT EXPLAINS, "THE RACIAL DIFFERENCES ARE SO POWERFUL THEY CAN WIPE OUT CLASS CONSIDERATIONS."

AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF ALL THIS ARE IMMENSE.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE MAN BEHIND THE RESEARCH, HARVARD SOCIAL SCIENCES PROFESSOR, ROBERT SAMPSON, AND TANISHA SULLIVAN, PRESIDENT OF THE BOTON BRANCH OF THE NAACP.

>> Braude: TANISHA, GOODS, AND, ROBERT, NICE TO MEET YOU.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: ROBERT, MOST OF US KNEW BY RACIAL SEGREGATION WHERE WE LIVE, BUT WHAT CONCLUSIONS WERE ABLE TO DRAW BASED ON IN TERMS OF WHERE WE TRAVEL IN OUR EVERYDAY LIVES?

>> YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT.

RACIAL SEGREGATION HAS BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME, AND SO HAS THE CONCENTRATION OF POVERTY.

I THINK THAT KIND OF INEQUALITY CHARACTERIZES MANY AMERICAN CITIES, BUT WE DON'T JUST LIVE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS.

I'VE STUDIED NEIGHBORHOODS FOR A LONG TIME AND HAVE RELIED ON THE TRADITIONAL MEASURES THAT LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THE POVERTY RATE, WHERE WE LIVE, AND THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF WHERE WE LIVE.

BUT WHEN WE CONSIDER THE FACT THAT WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY ISOLATED IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS, WE MOVE ABOUT, WE SHOP, WORK, GO TO CHURCH, DO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS, AND SO MY RESEARCH TEAM AND I SET OUT TO TRY TO STUDY THAT.

AND GIVEN NEW DATA SOURCES, WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO WAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE DIFFERENT PLACES THAT WE ESTIMATE PEOPLE ARE VISITING IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

I THINK OF IT AS EVERYDAY MOBILITY.

>> Braude: AND WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> THIS IS A LOT.

ONE OF THE SURPRISING THINGS WE FOUND IN THE FIRST PAPER, WHERE WE LOOKED AT THE 50 LARGEST AMERICAN CITIES, SO IT WASN'T JUST BOSTON -- WE COULD PLACE BOSTON IN PERSPECTIVE, BASED ON THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF MOVEMENTS THROUGHOUT THESE DIFFERENT CITIES, THE FIRST THING WE FOUND IS IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE COMING FROM, LET'S SAY, AFRICAN-AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOODS, WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS, HISPANIC NEIGHBORHOODS, AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE POOR OR NOT POOR, EVERYONE IS GETTING OUT.

THERE REALLY WEREN'T MANY DIFFERENCES BY RACE OR CLASS IN THE NUMBER OF NEIGHBORHOODS VISITED AND THE DISTANCE THEY WERE TRAVELING.

THAT SURPRISED US.

HOWEVER, THERE WERE TREMENDOUS DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF WHERE PEOPLE WERE VISITING AND WHERE THEY WERE GOING, AND ACTUALLY, IN MY RESEARCH, WHO IS VISITING THE NEIGHBORHOODS.

SPECIFICALLY, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF SEPARATION.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THOSE FROM WHITE, NON-POOR NEIGHBORHOODS ARE QUITE ISOLATED.

THEY'RE VISITING OTHER WHITE, NON-POOR NEIGHBORHOODS, BY A DEGREE WAY MORE THAN WE WOULD EXPECT BASED ON THE DEMOGRAPHY OF THE CITY.

SO WE CAN'T JUST THINK OF IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE NEIGHBORHOOD ISOLATION IN MUCH OF THE CLASSIC SOCIAL SCIENCE RESEARCH, WHICH WAS REALLY ALL ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICAN POOR WHO ARE ISOLATED WITHIN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

IT IS NOT QUITE TRUE.

THERE IS CONSIDERABLE MOVEMENT THROUGHOUT THE CITY.

THE DIFFERENCE AND THE CUN THE CONUNDRUM IS THEPLACES THE PLACES THAT THEY'RE VISITING ARE NOT IN AN EQUAL WAY.

WHAT STRUCK US MOST WAS THE RACE AND CLASS FINDING, SPAISKLY SPECIFICALLY THOSE FROM POOR BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS WERE NO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE FROM NON BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS, IN TERMS OF THE VISITING TO THE QUITE NEIGHBORHOODS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT WAS EVEN, WHICH REALLY SUGGSTED THAT CLASS REALLY WASN'T DOING IT.

RACE WAS TRUMPING CLASS IN TERMS OF EXPLAINING THE PATTERNS OF VISITATION IN ALL OF THE CITIES.

IT WASN'T JUST BOSTON.

AND WE THEN WENT ON TO DEVELOP A MEASURE, OR A METRIC, TO CHARACTERIZE THE RACIAL SEGREGATION OF CITIES BEYOND THE TRADITIONAL MEASURE OF JUST THE STATIC HERE IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD, AND HERE IS THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE CITY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND.

TANISHIA, DOES ANY OF THIS SURPRISE YOU?

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED HERE IN THE CITY IS PEOPLE OF COLOR, BLACK FOLKS IN THE CITY, IS REALLY -- I KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THE CONTEXT OF SEGREGATION BEING A NEGATIVE, AND I WOULD ACTUALLY SUBMIT THAT IN SOME RESPECTS WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY AN EMBRACE OF CULTURE, FAMILIARITY, AND SAFETY, THAT PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT RACIAL GROUPS, BLACK COMMUNITIES, LATINX COMMUNITIES, ARE SEEKING.

AND OFTENTIMES THAT IS FOUND WITHIN COMMUNITIES THAT PRESENT THE OPPORTUNITY TO JOIN TOGETHER AROUND FAITH, AROUND FOOD, AROUND OTHER ASPECTS OF CULTURE.

SO THAT IS NOT PARTICULARLY SURPRISING TO ME, THE DATA OUTCOMES ARE NOT PARTICULARLY SURPRISING TWO TO ME, BECAUSE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON, LIKE MANY OTHER CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, YOU FIND POCKETS OF CULTURE, SAFETY AND FAMILIARITY, ALONG RACIAL AND ETHNIC LINES.

>> Braude: BUT, TANISHA, IF I CAN INTERRUPT YOU FOR A SECOND, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THE REASONS YOU'RE NOT MENTIONING -- AND MAYBE YOU DON'T AGREE -- IS ONE THE REASONS WHY MOST BLACK RESIDENTS, OR MANY, ARE VISITING LIKE COMMUNITIES IN THEIR TRAVELS IS, ONE, BECAUSE THEY FEEL UNWELCOMED IN, LET'S CALL THEM MORE RESOURCE-RICH COMMUNITIES, AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THIS, MANY OF WHICH ARE NEGATIVE, NOT POSITIVE, IN TERMS OF CULTURE, ARE THEY NOT?

>> I THINK -- WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE GET TO WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SAFETY.

I MEAN, SAFETY CUTS BOTH WAYS.

THERE IS SAFETY IN THE FAMILIAR.

THERE IS SAFETY IN THE ACCEPTANCE OF A COMMUNITY.

BUT THERE IS ALSO THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN AS IT RELATES TO SAFETY, WHEREIN THERE ARE SOME COMMUNITIES WHERE PEOPLE JUST DON'T FEEL SAFE PHYSICALLY OR EMOTIONALLY SAFE, RIGHT?

I MEAN, I AM FOUR GENERATIONS IN BOSTONIAN, AND, YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T UNTIL ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO THAT I FOUND MYSELF CHOOSING TO DRIVE INTO SOUTH BOSTON.

AND THAT IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL OF MY LIFE MY PARENTS, MY GRANDPARENTS TALKED ABOUT HOW UNSAFE IT WAS FOR A BLACK PERSON TO DRIVE DEEP INTO SOUTH BOSTON.

AND THAT, YOU KNOW -- THE TRAUMA AND THE EXPERIENCES CERTAINLY CAN GO FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION.

>> Braude: SURE.

ROBERT, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT CONSEQUENCES FOR A MINUTE, AND I'M GOING TO USE A WORD THAT I KNOW SOCIAL SCIENTISTS USE MORE CAREFULLY THAN I, SO FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME.

I WANT TO PUT UP A GRAPH ABOUT THE CORRELATION BETWEEN ISOLATION, IN TERMS OF NEIGHBORHOODS, AND MURDERS, AND THE HIGH NUMBERS OF MURDERS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS ON THE FAR RIGHT ARE IN THE MOST ISOLATED NEIGHBORHOODS.

THERE IS A CORRELATION IS THERE NOT?

>> THERE IS, AND LET ME BE SPECIFIC ABOUT WHAT THAT ISOLATION MEANS.

IN THAT SPECIFIC CASE, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS WHAT WE CALL TRIPLE DISADVANTAGE.

MUCH OF THE RESEARCH IN THE STUDY OF CRIME AND OTHER CONSEQUENCES, SUCH AS HEALTH, HAVE LOOKED AT THE POVERTY RATE OF A COMMUNITY.

THAT CAN BE IMPORTANT, BUT CONSISTENT WITH THE IDEA AND THE FINDING THAT WE DON'T JUST LIVE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS.

WE ALSO TOOK INTO ACCOUNT WHERE PEOPLE WERE GOING TO, THE POVERTY RATE OF THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS, AND THEN THE FLOWS OF RESIDENTS INTO A NEIGHBORHOOD AND THE POVERTY RATE OF DESCENDING NEIGHBORHOODS.

SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT IS REALLY A POOR NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IS VISITED PRIMARILY BY RESIDENTS FROM OTHER POOR NEIGHBORHOODS, AND RESIDENTS ARE VISITING OTHER POOR NEIGHBORHOODS, AND THAT IS A TRIPLE AND A METRIC TRIPLE DISADVANTAGE.

I DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT, THOUGH, OF THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM.

WE'RE ALSO MEASURING CONCENTRATION OF AFFLUENCE AND ADVANTAGE, SO THE UPPER END OF THE SPECTRUM.

SO YOU HAVE ISOLATION OF AFFLUENT NEIGHBORHOODS THAT ARE BASICALLY GETTING VISITORS FROM OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS.

SO WE SEE THIS SPECTRUM.

DEPENDING ON WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, THAT MATTERS, TOO.

IN BOSTON, WE FOUND THE TRIPLE DISADVANTAGE WAS A STRONG PREDICTOR OF HOMICIDES, INDEPENDENT OF RACIAL COMPOSITION.

TANISHA WAS MAKING A REALLY GOOD POINT ABOUT THE PATTERNS BY RACE AND THE REASONS PEOPLE DON'T TRAVEL, AND I DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT OF WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS AS WELL WHO I THINK HAVE SIMILAR -- YOU CAN THINK ABOUT STEREOTYPES OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO GO INTO A POOR NEIGHBORHOOD, AND WHY PEOPLE DON'T TRAVEL AS MUCH AS THEY DO FROM WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS.

SO WE REALLY HAVE TWO THINGS GOING ON HERE: WE HAVE RACIAL SEGREGATION, WE ALSO HAVE CLASS SEGREGATION, AND IN THE CASE OF TRIPLE DISADVANTAGE, IT IS A COMPOUNDING OF POVERTY AT THESE MULTIPLE LEVELS THAT REALLY IS CENTRAL FOR COMPLAINING HOMICIDE.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT NOT JUST HOMICIDE, TANISHA, BUT IT IS THINGS LIKE PUBLIC HEALTH OUTCOMES, ACCESS TO HIGH-QUALITY EDUCATION.

SORT OF THE RICH GETTING RICHER AND THE POOR GETTING POORER.

SO IF IT IS A MIXED BAG, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT A MICHELLE WU OR ANNISSA ESSAIBI GEORGE HAS TO FOCUS ON COME NOVEMBER 16th, OR IS IT LOW ON THE PRIORITY LIST?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY STRIKES AT THE HEART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE AN EQUITABLE CITY.

I THINK IN MANY RESPECTS, IT SPEAKS TO THE NEED FOR DEEP INVESTMENT IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND IN OTHER CULTURALLY DIVERSE COMMUNITIES.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US ACROSS OUR CITY TO BE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE REALLY THE RICHNESS OF OUR DIVERSITY.

SO IT IS NOT LOST ON ME.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, AS A BLACK WOMAN, THAT IF I WANT TO GET MY HAIR BRAIDED, I'M GOING TO LOOK FOR A SALON THAT IS, YOU KNOW, WITHIN A PREDOMINANTLY COMMUNITY OF COLOR.

I'M NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO LOOK AT THE SEAPORT, RIGHT?

AND SO PART OF THIS IS A QUESTION ABOUT HOW DO WE, AGAIN, DEEPLY INVEST IN OPPORTUNITY ACROSS THE CITY?

AND HOW DO WE DEEPLY INVEST IN, REALLY, A CULTURAL DIVERSITY ACROSS THE CITY SO THAT WE CAN BE IN DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, REALLY, AGAIN, KIND OF A REFLECTION OF OURSELVES?

>> Braude: ROBERT, I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, AND TO PUT THIS IN SOME CONTEXT, WHICH MAY NOT MAKE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AND BOSTON FEEL MUCH BETTER -- I KNOW YOU LOOKED AT 50 COMMUNITIES, AND AT LEAST IN THE GLOBE SYNOPSIS, THERE IS A SUMMARY OF WHAT YOU CONCLUDED, AND THERE WERE A NUMBER OF CITIES THAT MOST OF US THOUGHT WOULD SCORE BETTER ON THESE CRITERIA.

PLACES LIKE LOS ANGELES, NEW YORK, MIAMI, I THINK WERE THREE LISTED IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE," WHERE THIS SEGREGATION, SEPARATION IN TERMS OF WHAT PEOPLE SPEND THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES, QUICKLY IF YOU CAN, IS EVEN MORE DISCOURAGING THAN IT IS HERE, CORRECT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

YOU CAN VIEW IT AS THE GLASS HALF EMPTY OR THE GLASS HALF FULL.

BOSTON BASICALLY SITS JUST BELOW THE MIDDLE, SO HALF OF THE CITIES HAVE WORSE OUTCOMES IN THE SENSE OF SEPARATION ACROSS RACES.

ABOUT HALF DO BETTER.

AND THAT WAS A SURPRISE, TOO, IN TERMS OF THE TYPES OF CITIES THAT YOU CAN ROLL OFF THE STEREOTYPES ABOUT WHAT IS A LIBERAL CITY OR CONSERVATIVE CITY.

BUT SOMETIMES SOME OF THE CITIES IN THE SOUTH, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD MUCH LOWER RATES OF RACIALLY SEGREGATED MOBILITY.

AND SO I THINK -- NOW GOING TO A POINT TANISHA MADE, MY VISION FOR THIS IS THAT WE WANT TO THINK OF NEIGHBORHOODS IN CITY SPACES, NOT JUST, LIKE, ISOLATED NEIGHBORHOODS OF A PARTICULAR RACE, IF THEY'RE BLACK OR THEY'RE WHITE, BUT THEY'RE PLACES THAT EVERYONE SHOULD VISIT -- >> Braude: TO VISIT IF THEY CHOOSE TO VISIT AND FEEL COMFORTABLE.

>> IF THEY CHOOSE, EXACTLY.

TRYING TO BREAK DOWN THESE BARRIERS OF STEREOTYPES AND THE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE A LOT OF INTERACTIONS CAN LEAD TO POSITIVE OUTCOMES.

THERE ARE ALSO INSTITUTIONS -- EN MY IN MY CLASS THAT I TEACH AT HARVARD, TWO OR THREE OF MY ASSIGNMENTS ARE TO GET STUDENTS OUT OF THE BUBBLE OF HARVARD SQUARE, OUT OF CAMBRIDGE, TO GO TO EAST BOSTON.

IT IS REMARKABLE THE KINDS OF EXPERIENCES THEY HAVE, AND THEY COME BACK AND SAY, WOW, IT IS A WHOLE NEW WORLD OUT THERE THAT'S EXCITING.

THEY ACTUALLY FIND IT EXCITING.

AND THAT TEACHES ME SOMETHING ABOUT THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS OF THIS KIND OF A RESEARCH.

>> Braude: ROBERT SAMPSON AND TANISHA SULLIVAN, THANK YOU BOTH FOF YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: WHILE MANY ARE HOPING THE NEW MAYOR WILL SIGNAL THE START OF A NEW CHAPTER FOR BOSTON, IT WILL BE A LONG, HARD FIGHT TO GET PAST THE CITY'S TROUBLED REPUTATION, ONE THAT'S DRIVEN MANY BLACK BOSTON-AREA RESIDENTS AWAY, WITH NO PLANS TO RETURN.

GBH NEWS' PHILLIP MARTIN RECENTLY CAUGHT UP WITH SOME FORMER BOSTONIANS NOW LIVING IN ATLANTA TO TALK ABOUT WHY THEY LEFT AND HOW DIFFERENT LIFE IS FOR THEM NOW.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME THAT MY DAUGHTER GROW UP IN A CITY WHERE PEOPLE LOOK LIKE HER AND ARE SUCCESSFUL.

MY PARENTS ARE STILL THE ONLY BLACK FAMILY WITHIN THREE OR FOUR MILES OF WHERE THEY LIVE.

HERE IN ATLANTA, THERE IS BLACK EXCELLENCE ON JUST ABOUT EVERY CORNER.

THERE'S JUST A DIFFERENCE.

HERE THERE ARE CERTAIN BATTLES YOU DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT.

>> ATLANTA IS ALMOST LIKE -- WE FEEL LIKE WE DON'T HAVE TO ASK TO DO.

YOU FEEL EMPOWERED.

IT'S OUR TOWN.

EVEN THOUGH I WAS THERE FOR 20 YEARS, I NEVER FELT LIKE BOSTON WAS MY TOWN AT ALL.

AND I LOVE BOSTON.

>> Braude: AND THEY'RE FAR FROM ALONE.

I'M JOINED NOW BY GEORGE "CHIP" GREENIDGE, WHO GREW UP IN MISSION HILL AND CAMBRIDGE AND NOW SPLITS HIS TIME BETWEEN BOSTON AND ATLANTA, HE IS THE FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR OF "GREATEST MINDS BOSTON," AS WELL AS VISITING FELLOW AT THE ASH CENTER FOR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE AND INNOVATION AT HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL.

AND GBH NEWS SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER PHILLIP MARTIN.

>> Braude: PHILLIP, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

CHIP, IT IS GREAT TO MEET YOU.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> SO GLAD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU, EVERYBODY.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: PHILLIP, YOU TALKED TO FIVE BLACK BOSTONIANS WHO ARE NO LONGER BOSTONIANS, PRT OF THIS REVERSE MIGRATION, AS YOU TERM IT.

THE NUMBERS ARE QUITE LARGE, ARE THEY NOT?

>> THEY'RE SIGNIFICANT.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE FROM THE NORTHEAST, THAT OF COURSE WOULD INCLUDE NEW YORK, BUT ALSO INCLUDES BOSTON, PROVIDENCE, OTHER SITES AND OTHER PLACES HERE IN THE NORTHEAST.

AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OVER A MILLION PEOPLE IN THE ATLANTA AREA NOW, AND THAT'S JUST OVER THE LAST TWO OR THREE DECADES.

REALLY THE LAST TWO DECADES.

>> Braude: SO, PHILLIP, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, WAS THERE A COMMON THREAD, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, BETWEEN THE FIVE FORMER BOSTONIANS -- WELL, FOUR AND A HALF BECAUSE CHIP STILL HAS ONE FOOT HERE.

BETWEEN THE FIVE FORMER BOSTONIANS WHO YOU INTERVIEWED?

>> WELL, THERE IS NO COMMON DENOMINATOR, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL.

AND ONE IS EDUCATION.

ALL OF THEM ARE WELL-EDUCATED.

SOME TOOK OFF AND WENT TO SCHOOL IN ATLANTA.

MOOREHOUSE PRINCIPALLY, AS CHIP CAN ATTEST TO, HE IS A MOOREHOUSE GRADUATE.

AND TO SPELMAN, THE TWO PREMIER BLACK UNIVERSITIES IN THE SOUTH.

SOUTH AND IN ATLANTA.

BUT THERE WAS ALSO A FEELING THAT BOSTON JUST WAS NOT DOING WHAT THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD DO FOR THEIR FUTURES AS THEY -- OR HOPED IT WOULD DO FOR THEIR FUTURES.

THEY SAW IN ATLANTA A BETTER PROSPECT OF LIFE, LIFE AHEAD, IN ATLANTA AS OPPOSED TO BOSTON.

>> Braude: CHIP, I MENTIONED YOU ARE STILL SPLITTING YOUR TIME, BUT AT LEAST FROM PHILLIP'S PIECE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOUR HEART APPEARS TO BE IN ATLANTA.

WHY IS THAT?

>> NO, NO.

IT IS VERY INTERESTING.

MY -- I HAVE SO MUCH FAMILY AND FRIENDS HERE, AND YOU KIND OF THINK ABOUT ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES THAT MIGHT EVEN MOVE HERE BUT ALSO HAVE THEIR HEART STILL IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

THEY FOLLOW THE LOCAL NEWS, THEY FOLLOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, THEY FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

SO I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF US THAT, OKAY, OUR LIVES MIGHT BE IN ATLANTA, BUT OUR HEARTS ARE STILL WITH BOSTON, WITH OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND SO FORTH.

>> Braude: CHIP, WE JUST SPOKE TO A SOCIAL SCIENTIST FROM HARVARD, WHO DID A PIECE TALKING NOT ABOUT RESIDENTIAL SEG SEGREGATION, BUT WHAT I'LL CALL MOVEMENT SEGREGATION, WHERE BLACK BOSTONIANS STAY IN SIMILAR NEIGHBORHOODS WHEN THEY TRAVEL THROUGHOUT THE DAY, TO SHOP, TO SOCIALIZE, TO EAT, THAT SORT OF THING.

AND THE TAKE-AWAY I HAD FROM THAT RESEARCH, AND FROM PHILLIP'S PIECE, IS THAT BOSTON IS A FAR LESS WELCOMING PLACE TO BLACK PEOPLE THAN ATLANTA IS.

DID I READ TOO MUCH INTO IT?

>> I THINK YOU HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD.

I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH ROBERT SAMPSON'S WORK.

I FOLLOW IT IN MY OWN STUDIES.

BUT IT IS INTERESTING.

I WANT YOU TO REALLY THINK ABOUT SOME OF THESE ISSUES THAT WE HEAR.

I REMEMBER IN 1989, I USUALLY GO TO THE FOOTBALL GAME WITH MY DAD EVERY THANKSGIVING IN HIGH SCHOOL.

AND THEN IN COLLEGE IN 1989, WE WERE LIVING ON MISSION HILL, AND MY FATHER TOLD ME NOT TO COME HOME.

AND THE REASON WHY HE TOLD ME NOT TO COME HOME BECAUSE IT WAS THE TIME OF THE MURDER OF CAROL STEWART, AND WHERE YOUNG BLACK MEN WERE GETTING THROWN AGAINST THE WALLS WITH STOP AND FRISK AND ALL THESE THINGS.

SO THERE WAS A WHOLE PIECE ABOUT SAFETY AND SUPPORT THAT I KNEW THAT MY PARENTS KNEW.

AND I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH CARSON BEACH, 1975 IN AUGUST, WHERE THERE WERE BLACK PEOPLE THAT WERE -- BLACK BOSTONIANS WERE TRYING TO ENJOY THE BEACH, AND THEY WERE STOPPED BY HUNDREDS OF STATE POLICE OFFICERS TELLING THEM TO LEAVE.

SO THESE MEMORIES ARE ALWAYS IN THE MINDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEY GET PASSED DOWN THROUGH FAMILY WHISPERS.

I ALWAYS WANTED TO GO TO THE SOUTH BOSTON PARADE AT FIVE AND SIX YEARS OLD, BUT MY TEACHER TOLD ME I COULDN'T BECAUSE OF MY SKIN COLOR.

AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT UNTIL MY MOM TOLD ME THAT.

THESE ARE FAMILY WHISPERS THAT LIVE ON TODAY ON HOW WE NAVIGATE THE CITY OF BOSTON.

>> Braude: THAT MURDER WAS NOT COMMITTED BY A YOUNG BLACK MAN, BUT BY THE WHITE HUSBAND WHO WAS IMPLICATING YOUNG BLACK MEN.

PHILLIP, YOU MENTIONED THE ELECTORAL MAYORS, AND THERE HAVE BEEN TWO BLACK MAYORS, AND THERE ARE TWO TOP FINALS THAT ARE ALSO AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

IS THAT IN THE MIX, THAT WILL ARE BLACK LEADERS IN ATLANTA THAT IS PART OF THE DRAW?

>> THAT'S IT.

YOU GO BACK TO MAYOR MAYNARD, IF YOU WILL, AND, CHIP, YOU CAN HELP ME ON THIS IN TERMS OF HISTORY -- ATLANTA HAS SUCCESSFUL BLACK MAYORS, SO IT IS NOT NEW.

IF YOU HAVE A CITY THAT IS MORE THAN 50% AFRICAN-AMERICAN, SO THAT ELECTORATE IS -- IN FULTON COUNTY, THEY'RE VERY MUCH INVESTED IN HAVING BLACK POLITICAL POWER.

AND THE MAYOR IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF THAT.

THE CITY COUNCIL IS ANOTHER.

THERE ALSO IS NEW ATTENTION BEING PAID TO OTHER ASPECTS OF POLITICS, IF YOU WILL, STATE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS A HARDER NUT TO CRACK IN GEORGIA.

SO YOU BASICALLY HAVE THIS BASTION OF BLUE, FULTON COUNTY AND BLACK POLITICIANS AGAINST A VERY HARD-CORE OF CONSERVATIVE POLITICS.

I MEAN, JUST THE NOTION THAT YOU HAVE STONE MOUNTAIN, LITERALLY, LIKE, JUST UP THE ROAD.

AND THAT IS A SYMBOL OF WHITE RESISTANCE FOR YEARS IN THE SOUTH.

>> Braude: AN INTERESTING COMMENT BY KYLE WELLS, WHO IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEWED FOR YOUR PIECE, WHO MOVED FROM MATTAPAN TO ATLANTA, TALKING ABOUT THEIR PERCEPTION OF THE BOSTON MAYORAL RACE TODAY.

HERE IS KYLE WELLS.

>> THE FACT THAT NEITHER OF THE BLACK CANDIDATES MADE IT THROUGH, I'M NOT SURPRISED.

FOR BLACKS, THERE IS STILL A PERCEPTION, WE'RE MINORITIES BUT WE AREN'T THE IDEAL ONES.

>> Braude: CHIP, YOU DID, I THINK IT WAS CALLED THE LATE DEBATE, WHERE BOTH CANDIDATES SHOWED UP LATE IN THE PROCESS HERE.

DID SOME OF THE ISSUES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND ROBERT SAMPSON TALKED ABOUT, DID THEY ARISE IN THAT FORUM YOU LED?

>> YES, DEFINITELY.

>> Braude: HOW SO?

>> IT WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT WHERE DO PEOPLE GO AT NIGHT AND WHERE DO THEY FEEL WELCOMED.

IT IS INTERESTING, WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT FEELING TOO COMFORTABLE GOING TO THE SEAPORT OR GOING TO OTHER PARTS BECAUSE THEY FIND THE PLACES ARE NOT FREE AND WELCOMING.

SO IF THEY WANT TO GO TO DOWNTOWN BOSTON, THEY FIND THRE ARE MANY DRESS CODES THAT ARE INSTITUTED WHILE THEY ARE THERE.

THEY WOULD SEE A WHITE PERSON GO IN WITH THE SAME CLOTHING, AND THEY JUST WALK RIGHT IN.

SO IT IS REALLY INTERESTING, AS YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THESE PIECES, ESPECIALLY THE WORK OF ROBERT SAMPSON LOOKING AT THE CELL PHONE DATA, ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE MIGRATE.

THEY MIGRATE WHERE THEY'RE MORE COMFORTABLE.

>> Braude: ONE INTERESTING THING I READ IN A SUMMARY OF YOUR FORUM THAT MICHELLE WU SAID, SHE MENTIONED THE FACT THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF LIQUOR LICENSES IN THE CITY, YET ONLY EIGHT -- AND THAT NUMBER IS CORRECT -- EIGHT IN BLACK-OWNED RESTAURANTS, WHICH IS STAGGERING.

I ONLY HAVE ABOUT 90 SECONDS LEFT.

STARTING WITH YOU, PHILLIP, THERE WILL BE A NEW MAYOR IN TWO WEEKS, IN LIGHT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE ROBERT SAMPSON/TANISHA SULLIVAN REPORT, WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR THE MAYOR COMING IN?

>> I THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE AN OPEN DOOR, NOT JUST ONE IS AJAR, BUT AN OPEN DOOR INVITING BLACK AMERICANS, LATINO AMERICANS INTO CITY HALL TO BASICALLY LOOK AT THINGS AS THEY BEGIN.

THE SEAPORT WAS ONE OF THOSE PROJECTS THAT WAS WAY AHEAD BEFORE ANYONE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

THERE WAS NO BLACK, LATINO, OR ASIAN-AMERICAN INPUT TO THAT PROJECT.

SO BEFORE THESE THINGS BEGIN, FOLKS SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN ON DAY ONE.

NOT YEARS LATER IN TERMS OF PROJECTS AND IDEAS.

>> Braude: CHIP, I HAVE 30 SECONDS.

WHAT IS YOUR GUIDANCE FOR THE NEXT MAYOR OF THE CITY?

>> MY GUIDANCE IS REALLY LOOK AT THAT STUDY BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, THE COLOR OF WEALTH.

$8 FOR BLACK FAMILIES AND HOUSEHOLDS.

THAT NUMBER -- IF THIS MAYOR IS NOT MOVING THAT NEEDLE AT ALL, THAT IS THE CORNER STONE FOR BLACK COMMUNITIES TO ACTUALLY DID THE MAJOR JUDGING OF WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

>> Braude: $8 FOR BLACK FAMILIES, $247,000 FOR WHITE FAMILIES.

I'M GREAT TO HAVE MET YOU.

THANKS, GENTLEMEN.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW.

DO KIDS EVER DESERVE BLACK SENTENCES, EVEN FOR THE MOST HORRIFIC CRIMES?

FOR KATHERINE BLAKE, IT IS PERSONAL AND IT IS COMPLICATED.

SHE JOINS ME ON WHY THAT AND MORE TOMORROW NIGHT AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org