>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> ONE OF THE DEADLIEST WEEKS IN GAZA SINCE THE CEASE-FIRE BEGAN AS ISRAELI STRIKES PEOPLE SETTLERS CEASED THE AGENDA ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

WE HAVE THE REPORT.

>>> "CO-EXISTENCE MY ASS" ISRAELI COMEDIAN TRAN TRAN -- NOAM SHUSTER-ELIASSI BRIDGES THE DIVIDE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

>>> HOW CUTS TO USAID ARE DEVASTATING COUNTRIES LIKE MOZAMBIQUE FROM FOOD SCARCITY TO THE RESURGENCE OF ISIS AND NOTES ON HOW WE GOT HERE.

>>> 2012 TO TODAY.

THE DEAN OF COLUMBIA JELANI COBB TALKS ABOUT RACE AND DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOWN WASHER, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN -- COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

A FAMILIAR, MORBID SEEN IN GAZA.

BODIES OF PALESTINIANS ON THE GROUND VICTIMS OF THE LATEST ISRAELI AIRSTRIKES.

THE TOTAL DEBT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA BROUGHT TO 312 SINCE THE U.S.

BROKE IT CEASE-FIRE SIX WEEKS AGO.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS IT'S FORCES STRUCK HAMAS TARGETS ACROSS GAZA AFTER MEMBERS OF THE PALESTINIAN MILITANT GROUP FIRED ON ITS TROOPS.

IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK VIOLENCE IS RISING.

THE U.N.

HAS LOGGED 264 ATTACKS IN OCTOBER ALONE, ITS HIGHEST MONTHLY TALLY AS SETTLERS GO AFTER FARMERS AND BURN TREES.

SENIOR OFFICIALS ARE WARNING THAT THE STATE IS LOSING CONTROL.

LET'S GO TO NIC ROBERTSON.

IT REALLY DOES SEEM LIKE THERE IS AN UPTICK IN VIOLENCE JUST WHEN PEOPLE THINK A CEASE-FIRE HAS CALMED THE SITUATION.

LET'S TALK ABOUT GAZA.

WHY SO MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LAST SIX WEEKS BUT ESPECIALLY THIS WEEK.

>> Reporter: A SPOKESMAN PUT MORE DETAIL ON IT TODAY SAYING SEVERAL TERRORIST CROSSED THE YELLOW LINE THAT SEPARATES THE IDF CONTROL PART AND THE PALESTINIAN PART OF THE GAZA STRIP.

THEY WERE NEUTRALIZED, THE GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN ALSO SAID HAMAS OR TERRORIST GUNMEN CAME ACROSS INTO AN AREA WHERE THE IDEA FOR FIRING THEIR WEAPONS.

THAT PUT A DANGER ON THOSE IDF TROOPS.

THE IDF TOOK THE DECISION AND IT WAS INTERESTING THAT THE GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN WHATEVER ANYONE'S CONCEPT ABOUT HOW THE CEASE-FIRE MIGHT BE INTENDED TO WORK, ISRAEL DID NOT SEEK ANYONE PERMISSION TO STRIKE AND DECIDED TO STRIKE 32 PEOPLE AND KILLED 12 THEM.

EIGHT OF THEM ARE WOMEN.

88 PEOPLE INJURED.

PERHAPS THIS TYPIFIES THE BREAKDOWN IN INFORMATION THAT IS CLEARLY NOT BEING SHARED AND THE DISPARITY OF INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THE CEASE-FIRE IS ABOUT BY BOTH SIDES.

>> EXACTLY.

IT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT NOW WHETHER ALL THE THINGS AROUND THE CEASE-FIRE ARE MEANT TO REALLY START WITH STABILIZATION OF THE FORCE AND HARD THINGS.

IT DOES NOT -- CAN YOU TELL IF THE FEELING IS ABOUT THESE LATER PHASES?

>> Reporter: THEY SEEM IMMENSELY TROUBLED RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS NO BOARD OF PEACE WORKING.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A COMMITMENT OF TROOPS FROM COUNTRIES YET OR DETAILED WAY THEY OPERATE ON THE GROUND.

NEITHER IS THERE A PALESTINIAN POLICE OPERATION BEEN IN PLACE.

WE HEARD FROM BOTH HAMAS AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

THEY DO NOT WANT THE BOARD OF PEACE, THEY DO NOT WANT A STABILIZATION FORCE.

SOME PALESTINIANS EXPRESSED A SENTIMENT ABOUT HAVING INTERNATIONAL FORCE THERE.

THEY THINK THEY PERCEIVE THEY ARE THERE TO DO ISRAEL'S BIDDING.

WE'VE HEARD FROM THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER AND AMBASSADORS SAY REALLY CLEARLY THE INTERNATIONAL STABILIZING FORCE .

NOTHING EVEN THERE WAS CALLED INTO BEING AS MUCH AS SIX MONTHS AWAY ACCORDING TO SOME DIPLOMATS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN, THE NUMBER OF WOMEN.

WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE NUMBER OF ATTACKS BY ISRAELI SETTLERS OR SOLDIERS ON PALESTINIAN FARMING COMMUNITIES IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THIS IN 2025 SURPASSED IN YEAR ON RECORD SINCE THE U.S.

STARTED COUNTING IN 2006.

SOME ISRAELI SECURITY OFFICIALS GENERALS AND THE LIKE SAID IT LOOKS LIKE THE GOVERNMENT HAS LOST CONTROL.

SO LONG THEY LET THE SETTLERS DO WHAT THEY PRETTY MUCH WANT.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE NOW THEY ARE PUTTING OUT STATEMENTS THAT IT HAS TO STOP ET CETERA.

WHAT IS THE HOPE THAT IT WILL STOP THERE?

>> Reporter: I THINK THERE IS ANOTHER VIEW OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THAT IS SOLELY SHARED BY PALESTINIANS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK AND BY ISRAELI ACTIVIST GROUPS.

WE HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THEM.

THE GOVERNMENT DESPITE WHAT THEY'VE BEEN SAYING IT'S BEEN VERY STRONG LANGUAGE USED BY MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITION THAT THESE SO-CALLED HILLTOP YOUTH, SETTLERS ARE JEWISH TERRORISTS AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.

ABBY WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE IDF FOR THE GAZA AREA HAS ACTUALLY CALLED THEM ANARCHISTS.

AFTER HE DID THAT THE SETTLERS SPRAY-PAINTED GRAFFITI DURING ONE OF THEIR ATTACKS WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF THE IDF.

I THINK THAT IS AN ANSWER BACK FROM THEM.

ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THEY POINT TO WAS THAT ISRAEL DEFENSEMAN REMOVED DETENTION FOR SETTLERS TO ARREST PALESTINIANS AND KEEP THEM IN JAIL ABSENT OF THE CONDITION -- CONVICTION.

THE INTERPRETATION IS THERE'S NOT ENOUGH RESTRAINING INFLUENCE ON THEM.

I WAS IN THE WEST BANK YESTERDAY TRAVELING AROUND THREE DIFFERENT VILLAGES FEELING THE BRUNT OF SETTLER VIOLENCE.

I JUST LEFT ONE OF THOSE VILLAGES AN HOUR LATER.

THEY WERE ATTACKING AN AVERAGE OF THE EIGHT ATTACKS A DAY.

THE KEY THING THAT PALESTINIANS AND ACTIVISTS WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND AT THE MOMENT IS THAT THE SETTLERS HAVE GONE TO ANOTHER LEVEL.

NOT JUST THE SCALE, SCOPE AND ORGANIZATION.

WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS IF THEY ARE DONE WITH THE RURAL AREAS THEY ARE NOW ENCROACHING ON THE TOWNS.

THE ALLEGATION IS THEY WOULD HAVE A PLAN TO TRY TO FORCE ALL PALESTINIANS TO A COUPLE OF MAJOR CITIES IN THE WEST BANK.

>> IT'S VERY SYSTEMATIC MANY ARE SAYING BY NOT CRACKING DOWN AND THE U.S.

LIFTING SANCTIONS ON SOME OF THE WORST OFFENDING SETTLERS IT KIND OF GIVES A GREEN LIGHT.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE REPORT FROM THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE MANY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS FIGHTING TIRELESSLY FOR PEACE INCLUDING OUR NEXT GUEST ISRAELI COMEDIAN NOAM SHUSTER- ELIASSI.

SHE LANDS HER UNIQUE VOICE TO THE DIALOGUE ON THE HARD WORK OF MAKING PEACE.

IT'S THE POINT OF HER DOCUMENTARY "CO-EXISTENCE MY ASS" AND HERE'S A LISTEN.

>> MY MOTHER IS JEWISH.

MY FATHER IS IRANIAN JEWISH.

THEY'VE BEEN TOGETHER SINCE HIGH SCHOOL.

THEY GREW UP TOGETHER.

THEY GREW UP TO BE THE THING ISRAELIS LOVE TO HATE THE MOST WOKE PROGRESSIVE LEFTISTS.

THEY BELIEVE IN THE RADICAL IDEA THAT ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS DESERVE THE EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS.

CRAZY, SO RADICAL.

WHEN I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD THEY SAID, LET'S NOT RAISE OUR KIDS TO BE NORMAL ISRAELIS.

LET'S MOVE TO THE ONLY PLACE IN THE COUNTRY WHERE JEWS AND PALESTINIANS LIVE TOGETHER BY CHOICE LIKE ON PURPOSE.

♪ ♪ THIS IS WHERE THE INSPIRATION COMES FROM.

JEWS AND ARABS LIVING TOGETHER.

>> MY GOODNESS.

IT LOOKS SO IDYLLIC.

NOAM IS JOINING THE PROGRAM FROM JERUSALEM .

I'M SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU ON BECAUSE YOU REALLY DO TYPIFY THE DWINDLING GROUP THAT STILL BELIEVE THERE'S A POSSIBILITY, YOU CAN DEFINE IT BUT PEACE IN SOME FORM OR FASHION.

JUST TELL US WHY YOUR PARENTS MOVED TO THE OASIS OF PEACE AND HOW YOU WERE BROUGHT UP.

IT WAS A DELIBERATE MOVE?

>> IT'S CALLED THE OASIS OF PEACE IN ENGLISH.

WHEN I TYPE IT ON MY iPHONE IT CORRECTED TO NEVER SHALOM.

I GREW UP IN A VERY POLITICAL HOUSEHOLD.

MY PARENTS MADE A DECISION WHEN I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD TO MOVE TO THE ONLY PLACE WHERE JEWS AND PALESTINIANS LIVE TOGETHER BY CHOICE.

FOR THEM IT WAS A WAY TO DEMONSTRATE WHAT WAS THE ALTERNATIVE.

I GREW UP AS THE POSTER CHILD OF THE PEACE MOVEMENT.

BUT I ALSO GREW UP WITH WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH IN THIS FILM, "CO-EXISTENCE MY ASS" WAS BECAUSE I WANTED TO FACE SOME HARSH REALITIES WHICH IS WITHOUT STOPPING AND THINKING WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN.

HOW CAN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS COEXIST WHEN WE DENY THE EXISTENCE OF PALESTINIANS WHEN PALESTINIANS ARE LIVING UNDER OCCUPATION AND THIS ONGOING GENOCIDE.

I WANTED TO SHOW THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT COEXISTENCE MEANS.

>> THE DOCUMENTARY IS SUPER INTERESTING.

IT DOES START WITH HARVARD PRINT DEVELOPING A COMEDY ROUTINE SKEWERING THE IDEAS YOU TALK ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

YOU TALK ABOUT DENYING THE EXISTENCE.

SOME ON THE OTHER SIDE DENY THE EXISTENCE OF JEWS AS WELL.

WHAT CONCLUSION HAVE YOU COME TO BECAUSE HE GREW UP THINKING IT WAS POSSIBLE.

SO MUCH HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN.

IS IT GONE FROM YOUR TABLE OR DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER ROUTE TOWARDS COMING BACK TO THE IDEA OF PEACE BETWEEN ALL SIDES?

>> I THINK IF WE FACE THE HARSH QUESTIONS AND WE FACE THE ELEPHANTS IN THE ROOM THERE COULD BE A RECKONING AND A PATH FORWARD FOR THE FUTURE.

I WOULD NOT BE DOING COMEDY ARE GOING ON STAGES OR BE DOING THIS INTERVIEW WITH YOU IF I DID NOT BELIEVE THERE WAS HOPE.

I AM ALSO SPEAKING TO YOU SEVEN MONTHS PREGNANT.

I THINK OF THIS ALSO AS SOMEWHAT OF AN ACTIVE HOPE OF MAYBE ME BECOMING A MOTHER.

I THINK ME BEING AN ISRAELI JEW I CARRY A RESPONSIBILITY.

WHAT DO I DO WITH MY JOKES, WHAT DO I DO WITH MY RESPONSIBILITY TO PALESTINIAN FRIENDS THAT I GREW UP WITH AND EVERYWHERE.

I THINK THAT WE CAN'T JUST THROW THE WORDS PEACE AND COEXISTENCE.

PEACE AND COEXISTENCE WILL BE A SIDE EFFECT WHEN THERE WILL BE JUSTICE.

WHEN WE WILL BE ABLE TO STOP THE OCCUPATION AND HOLD ISRAEL ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE WAR CRIMES AND EVERYTHING IT'S BEEN DOING FOR DECADES.

THERE'S DEHUMANIZATION IN SOCIETY AND VERY MUCH WIDESPREAD.

I FEEL LIKE I'M CARRYING THE RESPONSIBILITY TO TALK ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE I AM LOOKING AT MY SOCIETY GOING MORE TO THE EXTREME.

I FEEL LIKE I AM CARRYING THIS RESPONSIBILITY.

>> IT IS OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING I CAN SEE WEIGHS HEAVILY ON YOU.

I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE COMEDY PART OF THIS.

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE EVEN AL I AM JUST GOING TO LAY A SNIPPET WHERE YOU RECENTLY PERFORMED IN FRONT OF PALESTINIAN AUDIENCES, EVEN TOOK THE STAGE AT THE PALESTINE COMEDY SPECIAL IN FRONT OF A PALESTINIAN CROWD WITH THE DAILY REALITIES YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT.

>> ONE OF OUR COMEDIANS TONIGHT IS ONE OF OUR JEWISH.

PLEASE HELP AND -- WELCOME TO THE STAGE NOAM SHUSTER-ELIASSI .

>> I'M ONLY STAYING FOR SEVEN MINUTES, NOT 70 YEARS.

BY THE WAY, I STOLE THAT JOKE.

IT IS MINE NOW.

GOD PROMISED IT TO ME.

>> DO YOU KNOW IT'S ACTUALLY REALLY AMAZING.

I ASSUME THAT WAS A WHILE AGO BECAUSE YOU SAID 70 YEARS.

I THINK WE ARE NOW AT 75.

>> 2018.

>> YOU SEE PALESTINIANS LAUGHING AT THEIR PLIGHT THREE YOUR COMEDY.

THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TODAY.

YOU TALK ABOUT MAYBE IT WILL BUT I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE HAVING MORE DIFFICULTY GETTING BOOKINGS.

THERE ISN'T THAT EAGERNESS AMONGST ISRAELIS TO LISTEN TO THAT HUMOR, MAYBE NOT AMONGST PALESTINIANS EITHER.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION FOR YOU?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I AM REALLY WONDERING HOW TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THERE IS NO DEFINITE ANSWER.

PEOPLE ARE EAGER FOR CONNECTION.

PEOPLE ARE EAGER FOR EMPATHY.

I THINK COMEDY HAS BROUGHT ME THE GREAT GIFT OF BEING ABLE TO UN-CENSOR MYSELF.

TO USE THIS AMAZING TOOL AS YOU SAW ON STAGE I DID NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF.

IT WAS OBVIOUS.

THIS IS THE WONDERS OF WHAT COMEDY CAN DO.

I AM VERY SENSITIVE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING.

A STAGE LIKE THIS CANNOT HAPPEN TODAY BECAUSE I SEE THE REALITY AROUND ME.

IN THAT SAME NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN PERFORMING ISRAELI SETTLERS ARE TAKING OVER PALESTINIAN HOMES.

IT'S AN ONGOING PROCESS OF ETHNIC CLEANSING.

I'M VERY MINDFUL OF WHAT I'M DOING.

IT IS COMEDY BUT ALSO A VERY ACTIVE, OUTSPOKEN THING THAT I AM DOING TO MAKE PRESENT SOMETHING THAT MOST COMEDIANS -- YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES, CHRISTIANE, THEY TOLD ME HERE IS THE COMEDIAN DOING THE HEAVY STUFF.

SHE'S DOING THAT ARABS, THE JEWS, THE COEXISTENCE, THE PALESTINE.

I WAS KIND OF STUBBORN ON CONTINUING TO DO THAT.

I THINK SINCE OCTOBER 2023 I'VE ALSO HAD A REAL HEARTBREAK WITH THIS CRAFT.

ALSO IN THE U.S.

AND ALSO HERE WE ARE SEEING COMEDIANS USING THE TOOL OF COMITY FOR PROPAGANDA.

USING THE TOOL OF COMITY THAT IS SUPPOSED TO SHINE LIGHT ON POWER DYNAMICS AND TO EXPOSE THE POWER AND CHALLENGE IT.

WE ARE SEEING COMEDIANS USE THEIR PODCAST AND THEIR STAGE TO ENTERTAIN WAR, TO BECOME PART OF A WAR MACHINE, TO ENTERTAIN PROPAGANDA, TO HELP TRUMP GET ELECTED THROUGH THEIR COMEDY PODCASTS.

I THINK I HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A HEARTBREAK WITH IT.

IT ALSO REALLY REINFORCED MY ROLE.

I DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE ALL THE TIME.

I STILL HAVE SHOWS HERE.

PALESTINIANS AND JEWS COME TO MY SHOWS.

THIS FILM COEXISTENCE -- "CO- EXISTENCE MY ASS" WHICH IS BASED ON MY SHOW , WE ARE ABOUT TO HAVE A PREMIER IN MY HOMETOWN WHERE THE PALESTINIAN MOTHERS AND TEACHERS WHO'VE BEEN CARRYING SO MUCH PAIN FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS ARE GOING TO COME.

I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE THEM WATCH THE FILM AND BE PROUD AND LAUGH AND CRY.

I THINK IT HAS MADE MY ROLE MORE CLEAR AND THE FACT THAT I AM NOT GOING TO STOP.

NOT ON ACTIVISM AND NOT ON THE COMEDY.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY I CAN SEE WHAT EMOTIONAL.

I CAN SEE YOU CLEAR.

IT IS ALSO YOU CONFRONTING ANTI-PEACE PROCESS ARE WITH EVERYONE TO CALL THEM.

THIS ONE AT THE ANTI-TRAN05 PROTEST YOU SPOKE TO THEM WITHOUT EVER DEMANDING THE PROTEST OF PALESTINIAN RIGHTS ARE OCCUPATION.

SO I WILL PLAY THIS.

>> YOU ARE THERE AND SHAKING HANDS AND HAVING AN ARGUMENT WITH SOMEBODY ON THE SAME SIDE.

THE INTERFERENCE WITH THE SUPREME COURT AND ALL OF THE REST OF THE PROTESTS.

EVEN THEY YOU FIND DON'T GET THE WHOLE STORY.

VERY BRIEFLY BECAUSE WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, WHAT IS YOUR HOPE FOR THE FUTURE?

>> MY HOPE FOR THE FUTURE IS THE BASIC THINGS WE ARE SAYING IN THE FILM AND THE BASIC THINGS I STAND FOR DON'T SEEM RADICAL EVEN IN THE LEFT-WING DEMONSTRATION.

DEMANDING FULL AND EQUAL RIGHTS TO PALESTINIANS IS NOT RADICAL.

WANTING ETHNIC CLEANSING TO STOP IS NOT RADICAL.

WHAT I AM REPRESENTING IS A VERY SIMPLE TRUTH OF EQUALITY AND HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL ALSO LAUGH ON THE WAY.

>> WE CERTAINLY NEED SOME KIND OF HELP OUT OF ALL OF THIS DARKNESS.

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR BABY AND EVERYTHING.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> MORE THAN 22 MILLION PEOPLE, MANY OF THEM CHILDREN, COULD DIE FROM PREVENTABLE CAUSES DUE TO AID CUTS BY THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO A GROUP OF LOCAL HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS.

IN PARTICULAR THE VOID LEFT BY USAID IS BEING FELT IN COUNTRIES LIKE MOZAMBIQUE WHERE FOOD AND MEDICINE ARE INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT TO FIND.

MEANWHILE, ISIS IS STAGING A RESURGENCE SWEEPING INTO SMALL VILLAGES, CARRYING OUT BEHEADINGS.

NICK PATON WALSH IS HERE WITH THE REPORT.

>> Reporter: HOLDING ISIS BACK AS IT SURGES.

MAKING AFRICA, THE NEW HEARTLAND, IS FADING.

DARKNESS IN ITS PLACE.

HELP FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SO VITAL IN MOZAMBIQUE, ABOUT 3% OF ITS ECONOMY.

IN JANUARY IT WAS SUDDENLY GONE.

THE WHOLE IT LEFT SEEMS TO SUCK EVERYONE IN.

BEHEADINGS, CHILD ABDUCTIONS, EMPTYING CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORHOODS.

NEARLY 100,000 ON THE MOVE, FINDING LITTLE FOOD OR HELP.

IN A PLACE WHERE BILLIONS IN GAS WEALTH ENOUGH TO TRANSFORM LIFE AND AN AMERICAN INVESTMENTS IT'S UNTAPPED UNTIL SECURITY TURNS.

IT LOOKS LIKE A PLACE WHERE NOTHING SHOULD GO WRONG.

THE NORTH IS RAVAGED BY A RESURGENT ISIS FINDING A NEW LIFE ACROSS AFRICA.

WE LAND IN THE FLASHPOINT SEVEN WEEKS AFTER ISIS STARTED THE WORST OFFENSIVE SINCE THEY OCCUPIED THE TOWN IN 2021.

THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS HERE IN A YEAR.

THE GRIP IS SO SHAKY THEY HAVE LET FORCES INTO BE THE REAL MUSCLE ON STREETS WHERE ISIS SEEM TO RULE THE NIGHT.

USAID CONTRIBUTION TO MOZAMBIQUE AMOUNTED TO ABOUT 3% OF GDP.

THEY ARE REELING FROM THAT SUDDENLY STOPPING.

IN A PLACE LIKE THIS IT WAS CONTROLLED CHIEFLY BY ISIS ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO.

THEY WERE KICKED OUT AND THE USAID MONEY HELPED THE ECONOMY, DEVELOPMENT, SCHOOLS, ENABLED THE GOVERNMENT TO TRY AND PROMOTE THE HOLD ON THE PLACE.

NOW THAT MONEY HAS SUDDENLY BANISHED -- VANISHED.

>> THE LITTLE VIDEO WE HAVE OF THE RECENT ONSLAUGHT IS TERRIFYING.

OUT GUNNING FORCES, SLAUGHTERING CAP LIVES.

IN OCTOBER THEY TRIED SOMETHING NEW, LESS SAVAGE.

THEY WALKED UNOPPOSED, ARMED, INSTALLING UNIFORM STRAIGHT TO THIS MOSQUE IN THE FISHING COMMUNITY TO DELIVER A MANIFESTO.

THE CROWD DID NOT FLEE BUT INSTEAD FILMED.

WHEN ISIS ARRIVED, ASKED FOR THE KEYS AND WALKED IN WEARING THEIR BOOTS, IT WAS PRESUMED THEY WERE SOLDIERS.

WHAT DID YOU THINK ON THAT NIGHT WHEN THOSE GUYS CAME IN?

>> Reporter: IT IS EXTRAORDINARY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS OF ISIS SPREADING ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, STARTLING TO STAND IN A PLACE WHERE THEY HAD FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO.

LOCALS SAY THEY ALERTED THE MILITARY, BUT ISIS HAD MADE THEIR POINT ABOUT CONTROL.

93,000 PEOPLE AROUND THE AREA FLED IN JUST SIX WEEKS AFTER THE ATTACKS BEGAN ON SEPTEMBER 7.

NOT A BREATH OR NOISE OF LIFE IN A CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE ARE THE FIRST JOURNALISTS TO SEE THIS.

RAFAEL TAKES US DIRECTLY TO THE HOME OF HIS BROTHER-IN-LAW, NOW ABANDONED.

THEY WERE NOT RICH AND ALSO TOOK USAID.

ISIS STILL CAME FOR THEIR MONEY IN THE DARK KNOWING EXACTLY WHICH DOOR TO KNOCK ON.

EIGHT MEN KILLED BY ISIS.

SEVEN OF THEM BEHEADED.

SOME OF THEM IN FRONT OF THEIR FAMILIES.

THERE IS NOBODY HERE.

IT IS STARTLING.

IT USED TO BE A VIBRANT CHRISTIAN AREA.

YOU CAN SENSE JUST HOW MUCH FEAR THEY ARE ABLE TO PROJECT WITH THESE NIGHT RAIDS WHEN THEY JUST TURN UP IN THE DARK, HIT PARTICULAR HOUSES AND BEHEAD THE MEN.

USAID GAVE ABOUT $586 MILLION IN 2024 TO MOZAMBIQUE.

A TOTAL OF ABOUT $2.4 BILLION WAS INTENDED FOR ONGOING PROJECTS FROM WATER SANITATION TO ANTI-EXTREMISM.

WHEN USAID STOPPED, ROUGHLY $800 MILLION OF THAT PLEADED AS WELL.

THE MONEY USAID SPENT URGENTLY TRYING TO CURB THE SPREAD OF ISIS.

THEY GAVE $50,000 TO HELP MOTORCYCLE TAXI DRIVERS IMPROVE WORKING CONDITIONS WITH PAPERWORK, VESTS, HELMETS.

THEY RISK RECRUITMENT TO ISIS UNLESS THEY FIND A LIVELIHOOD.

THEIR ANGER SUDDENLY DISAPPEARING.

PLEASE, TELL ME, HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW THE USAID MONEY HAS STOPPED?

EMOTIONS ARE INCREDIBLY HIGH.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE'S LIVELIHOODS.

A LOT OF ANGER.

THE MAN WHO RAN THE PROJECT DESCRIBES HOW IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO STOP ISIS.

FISHERMAN, THE MAIN WORKFORCE HERE.

ALSO A SOURCE OF RECRUITS.

WE VISIT THE USAID PROJECT AIMED AT GIVING THEM A BETTER LIVELIHOOD, NOW SHUT.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY STUNNING HERE.

JUST ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BAY IS THE MOSQUE WHERE ISIS GAVE THE SPEECH A MATTER OF DAYS AGO.

HERE IS THE PROJECT.

FUNDED DISCREETLY IT HELPED REGISTER AND REPAIR BOATS, NETS, AND MOTORS AND WAS MEANT TO CONTINUE.

INTERRUPTING ISIS'S PERSONAL.

OVER SIX YEARS AGO THEY ABDUCTED BOTH HIS SONS AND DAUGHTER.

SHE ESCAPED BUT HE DOES NOT KNOW IF HIS BOYS ARE ALIVE.

IT IS JUST CRAZY HOW FREQUENTLY WE COME ACROSS STORIES OF ABDUCTION AND KILLING.

THE TOWN SO MANY FLEE TO IS A BACKBREAKING NINE HOURS DRIVE AWAY.

THE SHORTER ROADS WE AVOID.

ISIS KILLED POLICE THERE DAYS EARLIER.

THIS REALLY ISN'T AN AID TO TOWN.

WE ARE TOLD SINCE USAID SHUT DOWN 1010 -- 10 INTERNATIONAL WORKERS HAVE LEFT.

THE OFFICES ARE CLOSED.

A REAL SENSE OF THE AIR BEING SUCKED OUT OF IT.

10,000 NEW ARRIVALS IN THIS CAMP ALONE MET WITH A STEEP DROP IN FOOD AID.

THE NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL ARE FUNDED BY USAID.

THEY CAN NOW ONLY PROVIDE ONE MONTH STOPGAP RATIONS.

THEY BUILD AGAIN HERE.

NEW HOMES FROM BAMBOO AND KNITTING WHILE VIVIDLY AWARE THEY CANNOT GO BACK.

MOST STORIES YOU HEAR IN THE HE'S -- HEAT, DUST, AND SMOKE AND IN A BEHEADING.

ALREADY THERE ARE SIGNS OF REAL HUNGER.

HE MIGHT CHOOSE TO EAT THESE SNAILS FRESH FROM THE SEA, BUT NOT LIKE THIS SO FAR INLAND.

THESE GIRLS FATHER WAS KILLED BY ISIS.

HE WAS PART OF A LOCAL GOVERNMENT MILITIA.

THEY ARRIVED HERE DESPERATE TWO DAYS AGO TO FIND THE AID THEY YEARNED FOR WAS NOT THERE.

THE U.S.

SAID THEY NEED $352 MILLION FOR THIS CRISIS BUT AS OF OCTOBER HAVE ONLY $3.5 MILLION FROM THE U.S.

SO FAR ALTHOUGH MORE FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS SAID TO BE COMING.

THE U.S.

GAVE MUCH MORE IN PREVIOUS YEARS.

>> WE WERE ASSISTING ABOUT 1 MILLION PEOPLE AT THE BEGINNING OF 2024 AND WE DECREASED TO 345,000.

>> THEY SAY THAT THEY CANNOT HELP THEM AND IT IS VERY STRESSFUL.

>> WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE PRIORITY.

WE HAVE TO MAKE TOUGH CHOICES.

WE FOCUS ON LIFESAVING.

>> MOZAMBIQUE COULD BE RICH AROUND THE TOWN OF PARMA SHIELDED BY THESE FORTIFICATIONS IT IS CLEAR THAT WHILE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS STRIPPING AWAY AID, IT'S ALSO INVESTING FAST AND HARD, A $4.7 BILLION LOAN IN MARCH IN FAST LIQUID NATURAL GAS FACILITIES.

U.S.

JOINED EXXON MOBIL AND FRANCE PLAN TO SPEND AT LEAST $20 BILLION HERE.

IT IS SO MUCH OF WHAT THE INTENSITY IS ABOUT.

MOZAMBIQUE'S LIQUID NATURAL GAS RESOURCES SO PLENTIFUL AND UNTAPPED.

IT COULD MAKE THE COUNTRY SECOND ONLY TO QATAR IN TERMS OF THE WEALTH THEY GET FROM IT.

IT IS A CONTRADICTION AND A RISK.

ISIS VIOLENCE, BUILDING HIT FOR YEARS BUT EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOW WORSENING IT WAS SUGGESTED LAST MONTH THEY WOULD PUSH AHEAD WITH THE BELT.

WITH THIS REMARKABLE SAVAGERY CIRCLING AROUND IT, A FUTURE OF PROSPERITY SEEMS FAR-FETCHED.

SURROUNDED BY A CRISIS OF ESCALATING HUNGER THIS IS DEEPENED BY A SOUTHERN COLLAPSE IN THE AGE THAT ONCE KEPT LIFE TO FLOAT HERE.

A STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON SAID THEY CONTINUE TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE.

THE MAJORITY WAS LIFESAVING FOOD AND NUTRITION ASSISTANCE.

THEY ADDED WORLDWIDE AID WAS CONSTANTLY UNDER REVIEW TO BE SURE IT MEETS THE NEEDS OF THE RECEIVING COUNTRY AND THE PRIORITIES OF THE UNITED STATES.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT DID NOT RESPOND TO OUR QUESTION ABOUT THE RESURGENCE OF ISIS FOLLOWING THE WITHDRAWAL OF USAID.

THE STATEMENT ADDED THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO BE THE MOST GENEROUS NATION IN THE WORLD.

THIS ADMINISTRATION IS ENHANCING THE STRATEGIC AND IMPACT OF AGENCIES AROUND THE WORLD.

WE CALL ON OTHER NATIONS TO INCREASE IN BURDEN SHARING.

>>> NOW FROM MASS I.C.E.

RATES TO ENFORCING ANTI-DDI POLICIES FEARS THAT THE MELTING POT ONCE CHAMPIONS I FEARS OF UNRAVELING.

THE DEAN OF THE COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM JELANI COBB TOLD HIS STUDENTS THAT NOBODY CAN PROTECT YOU.

THROUGH A COLLECTION OF HIS ARTICLES WRITTEN OVER THE LAST DECADE HE REFLECTS WITH MICHELLE MARTIN ON HOW THE UNITED STATES GOT TO THIS PLACE.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS A COLLECTION OF YOUR ESSAYS FROM 2012 TO 2025.

IT IS TITLED THREE OR MORE IS A RIOT.

WHERE DOES THE TITLE COME FROM.

>> I HAVE DONE A LOT OF COVERAGE IN AND AROUND SOUTH CAROLINA.

PARTICULARLY A DIFFICULT STORY THAT I COVERED WHICH WAS THE DEATH OF NINE AFRICAN-AMERICANS AT THE EMMANUEL CHURCH IN 2015 THE RESULTS OF A MASS SHOOTING THAT HAD BEEN ORCHESTRATED BY A WHITE SUPREMACIST.

IT REMINDED ME THERE HAD BEEN YEARS BEFORE THE CIVIL CODE OF SOUTH CAROLINA, COLONIAL SOUTH CAROLINA HAD HELD THAT A SLAVE REVOLT WAS DEFINED AS THREE OR MORE NEGROS AS THEY WERE CALLED THEN OUTSIDE OF THE COMPANY OF THE WHITE MEN.

THEN THE RIOT WAS PUBLIC MAYHEM COMMITTED BY THREE OR MORE PEOPLE.

I THOUGHT THERE WAS THIS LINE ABOUT NUMBERS, TOMOGRAPHY, SOCIAL TENSIONS, ORDER, AND ALL OF THOSE THEMES THAT KEPT COMING UP IN THE THINGS I WROTE ABOUT.

THE TITLE JUMPED OUT AT ME THREE OR MORE IS A RIOT.

>> YOU START BY TALKING ABOUT THE SHOOTING DEATH OF TRAYVON MARTIN.

FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT REMEMBER HE WAS A FLORIDA TEENAGER SHOT BY HISPANIC MAN GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WHO WAS A SELF- APPOINTED NEIGHBORHOOD WATCHMAN.

HE WAS VISITING HIS DAD AND WENT TO GET HIS LITTLE BROTHER A SNACK.

ZIMMERMAN DECIDED HE WAS SUSPICIOUS AND WAS GOING TO FOLLOW HIM.

HE DOES NOT LIKE BEING FOLLOWED AND FEELS THREATENED.

HE CONFRONTS ZIMMERMAN.

ZIMMERMAN SHOOTS HIM.

IS NOT ARRESTED FOR WEEKS.

HE IS EVENTUALLY ARRESTED AND ACQUITTED.

THE IRONY THAT IT TAKES PLACE DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

THE BOOK KIND OF FOLLOWS THESE DIFFERENT SECTIONS.

IT'S GOT PARAMETERS OF HOPE, WINTER IN AMERICA AND HISTORY LESSONS.

I WAS CURIOUS WHY YOU DECIDED TO OPEN THE BOOK AS OPPOSED TO THE ELECTION OF BARACK OBAMA IN 2008.

>> THERE WERE A COUPLE REASONS WHY THE BOOK OPENS WHERE DOES.

I STARTED WRITING FOR THE NEW YORKER IN 2012.

THE FIRST THING I EVER WROTE ABOUT, AT THE TIME IT WAS A NEWS BLIP.

IT WAS NOT A STORY THAT HAD THE DIMENSIONS.

IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NEW YORKER.

ALSO IT OCCURRED TO ME WHEN WE WERE PUTTING THE COLLECTION TOGETHER WHEN WE LOOKED AT 2012 TO 2016, THE SECOND TERM OF BARACK OBAMA AND 2016 TO 2020 AND THEN 2020 TO 2024, IT'S JUST A LITTLE BIT THAT CREEPS OVER INTO 2025 IT COULD BE LIKE A THREE ACT PLAY WITH THE THREE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS.

YOU CAN SEE AN ARC OF THE STORY EVOLVING AND HOW WE CAME TO FIND OURSELVES IN INCREASINGLY VOLATILE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

IT ALSO WAS INTERESTING TO CONTEMPLATE THE QUESTION OF POLICE VIOLENCE WAS SUCH AN URGENT MATTER.

IT WAS URGENT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THOSE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS WERE WORLDWIDE.

IT WAS REMARKABLE TO SEE PEOPLE IN PLACES THAT DID NOT EVEN HAVE LARGE BLACK POPULATIONS OR EXPATRIATE POPULATIONS ENGAGING IN THIS DISCOURSE.

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT NOW?

>> GOING BACK TO THE POINT ABOUT OBAMA FOR A QUICK SECOND, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS TENSION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO WERE CRITICAL OF WHAT HE DID AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE THINKING ABOUT CONTEXT LIKE WHAT WAS CAPABLE OF BEING DONE IN THAT MOMENT.

THAT IS THE KIND OF TENSION MAKING ANY KIND OF ASSESSMENT OF ANYONE.

THAT MOMENT THE FORCES THAT WERE AMASSING EVEN WHILE HE WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WERE PUSHING THE COUNTRY IN A MORE VOLATILE DIRECTION AND MORE REACTIONARY DIRECTION AND PEOPLE WHO FELT AS IF HE REPRESENTED SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN FROM THEM.

THAT IS BEST ARTICULATED AND UNDERSTOOD IN THE 2016 ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

THEN WE GO THROUGH ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN 2016 AND WE GET TO COVID.

SOME OF THE MORE REACTIONARY RESPONSES WE GET TO THAT.

THEN THERE IS GEORGE FLOYD AND THERE'S THIS HIGH WATER MARK OF SOCIAL REFORM AND RECOGNITION OF CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL THESE CASES THAT PRECEDED.

THE PUBLIC HAD NOT SEEN SOMEONE LOSE THEIR LIFE OVER THE COURSE OF NINE MINUTES OF VIDEO WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER REFUSING TO STOP KNEELING ON HIS NECK.

I THINK THAT SHOCKED THE CONSCIENCE.

IN THE LONG VIEW 2020 LOOKS LIKE A BRIEF INTERLUDE A SPEEDBUMP ON THE WAY TOWARD A MUCH MORE REACTIONARY VERSION OF THE UNITED STATES.

WE NOW LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD IS MORE LIKE NOT LESS LIKELY PICK AS A RESULT OF THESE TITANIC FORCES THAT WE HAVE SEEN AMASSING LONG BEFORE ANY OF US KNEW WHO GEORGE FLOYD WAS.

>> ONE THING YOU WRITE ABOUT IS THE WAY PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN GOOD AT TURNING RACIAL GRIEVANCES CULTURAL GRIEVANCES INTO POLITICAL CAPITOL.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS THAT HE'S BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL AT IT?

>> SOME OF THIS IS A PARTICULAR POLITICAL SKILL OR DARE I SAY TALENT AT FINDING THE BUTTONS THAT TRIGGER RAGE IN PEOPLE AND HE HAS A BACKGROUND IN TELEVISION WHICH SHOWS.

REALITY TV.

SOMEWAYS THE POLITIC WE'VE SEEN HIM DEPLOY HAS BEEN FUNDAMENTAL REALITY TELEVISION.

THAT HAS BEEN COMPELLING THE PEOPLE.

THIS IS A VERY OLD PLAYBOOK.

POPULIST MOVEMENTS.

IF YOU GO BACK TO PAT BUCHANAN IN THE 90s OR IF YOU GO BACK TO TOM WATSON IN THE 1890S TO THE EARLY 20th CENTURY AND IF HE TOOK ALL THEIR SPEECHES AND THROUGH THE PAGES INTO THE AIR AND LET THEM FALL YOU WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME FIGURING OUT WHO SAID WHAT BECAUSE THERE IS A BIG OVERLAP IN THE WAYS THEY LEVERAGED PEOPLE'S FEELINGS OF RESENTMENT AND GALVANIZE THAT INTO POLITICAL FORCE.

>> PAT BUCHANAN DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

GEORGE WALLACE DID NOT MAKE IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR TWO TERMS IT IS A PRETTY REMARKABLE ACHIEVEMENT.

>> I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT AT ALL .

THAT IS THE THING I'M SAYING.

THOSE KINDS OF MOVEMENTS THAT EXISTED FOR A LONG TIME, THE DYNAMIC OF SOMEONE THAT IS ABLE TO GALVANIZE THAT.

ALSO I SHOULD SAY NONE OF THOSE WERE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT IN THE AFTERMATH OF A BLACK MAN BEING ELECTED AS PRESIDENT.

THAT IS ANOTHER POINT THAT BEARS MENTION.

>> THE BOOK IS FOCUSED ON THE BLACK-WHITE RACIAL DYNAMIC BECAUSE OF THE TIMES YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT.

AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT IN HIS SECOND TERM.

WHITE POPULIST BEER ARISING IN PART AS YOU NOTED OUT OF RESENTMENT AROUND THAT FACT.

IN THE CURRENT MOMENT MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE THE FOCUS OF THIS PRESIDENT'S RESENTMENT ARE PEOPLE OF OTHER ETHNIC BACKGROUNDS.

MANY PEOPLE FROM SOUTH AMERICA, CENTRAL AMERICA.

MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE TARGETS OF THIS IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN WHICH HAS TAKEN ON A FURIOUS DIMENSION.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THAT.

>> THERE IS A PIECE THAT I WROTE IN THE NEW YORKER.

IT WAS TOO RECENT TO GET INTO THE COLLECTION.

A COUPLE OTHER PIECES I TOPIC AND -- ABOUT THIS DYNAMIC OF INTEGRATION AND ANTI- IMMIGRATION, XENA PHOBIA IN AMERICAN SOCIETY AND THE GROUNDSWELL WE ARE EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD POINT OUT THAT HISTORICALLY WE HAVE SEEN, WE HAVE TENDED TO SEE XENA >> Reporter: -- XENA PHOBIC POLITICS RISE AT THE SAME TIME WE'VE SEEN ANTI-BLACK POLITICS.

THEY SEEM TO HAVE A CONNECTION THAT GOES TO A FUNDAMENTAL CONCERN ABOUT TOMOGRAPHY AND TRYING TO CURE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO IS IN THE ELECTORATE.

THERE'S ISSUES OF VOTER ACCESS AND VOTER SUPPRESSION THAT ALSO GO HAND IN HAND WITH THE ANTI- IMMIGRATION RHETORIC, NATIVISM AND ENCINO PHOBIA WITH A COMMON SENSE OF PERSECUTION OR MAYBE ANXIETY ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE FIT IN THE BIGGER TOMOGRAPHY OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> IN SOME OF YOUR ESSAYS YOU REVISIT THEM LIKE AN EPILOGUE OR POSTSCRIPT WHERE YOU REFLECT ON WHAT YOU WROTE THEN AND WHAT YOU MIGHT THINK NOW.

ANY ONE IN PARTICULAR WHERE YOU FELT YOU GOT IT WRONG?

>> I FEEL LIKE I GOT EVERYTHING RIGHT.

[LAUGHTER] >> LUCKY.

>> I THINK SOME OF MY ASSESSMENTS, EARLY ASSESSMENTS ABOUT THE MAGA PHENOMENON UNDERESTIMATED THE BROAD ARRAY OF ISSUES THAT WERE REALLY BUOYING THAT MOVEMENT.

I CERTAINLY UNDERESTIMATED THE SPEED AT WHICH IT WAS GOING TO COME INTO FRUITION.

ONCE I STARTED TO SEE IT I COULD NOT UN-SEE IT.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT IN RELATIONSHIP TO OLDER POPULIST MOVEMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THEN IT BECOMES MUCH MORE LEGIBLE AND UNDERSTANDABLE.

I THINK EARLY ON I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE WRITING I DID PROBABLY REFLECTED THAT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE FACT THAT THIS MAGA MOVEMENT , THE MOVEMENT THE PRESIDENT HAS CALLED MAGA , IT'S A MULTIRACIAL MOVEMENT.

IS FBI DIRECTOR HAS BEEN A PRIME AGENT OF HIS CAMPAIGN AGAINST HIS PERCEIVED ENEMIES IS INDIAN AMERICAN WHO TOOK HIS OATH OF OFFICE ON A HINDU SACRED TEXT.

WHAT YOU THINK THE HEAD OF THIS MILITIA GROUP HAS HISPANIC HERITAGE.

THE FACT THAT HE GOT LARGER PERCENTAGES OF HISPANIC AND BLACK VOTES IN HIS SECOND ELECTION THAN HIS FIRST.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> A FEW THINGS ARE AT PLAY.

ONE, IF WE LOOK AT ALL SORTS OF MOVEMENTS THAT PRECEDED THIS.

IF WE LOOK AT THE ANTI- COMMUNIST MOVEMENTS OF THE 1950s AND SO ON, PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND VANTAGE POINTS FIND SOMETHING THEY CONNECT TO TO IN THOSE MOVEMENTS.

THE OTHER THING I WILL SAY THAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS THE POLITICS OF MOTHERING HAS BEEN PLAYING OFF OF VARIOUS COUNTERPOINTS, IF I CAN SAY THAT.

THE PERSON WHO, THE LARGE NUMBERS OF BLACK MEN OR THE LARGER NUMBERS OF BLACK MEN WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP IN 2024 WERE VERY OFTEN RESPONDING TO THE KIND OF MASCULINE, SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE SEXIST, POLITICS THAT TRUMP REPRESENTED.

SO THEY WERE NOT VOTING NECESSARILY ON THE BASIS OF RACE.

THEY WERE FLOATING ABOUT ANXIETIES AND RESENTMENTS THEY EXPERIENCE ALONG THE LINES OF GENDER.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE WOMEN WHO COULD HAVE BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICIES HE WOULD'VE ADVOCATED THAT ARE NOT BENEFICIAL TO WOMEN BUT ALSO WERE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

AND IT WAS A KIND OF MASTERFUL EXAMPLE OF LAYING PEOPLE OFF OF EACH OTHER ON THE BASIS OF THEIR RESENTMENTS, ANXIETIES, AND FEARS.

THAT IS ONE THING.

THE OTHER THING IS SOME OF THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE INCREASED APPEAL OF DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S ABOUT THE DECREASED APPEAL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH HAS TWO HUGE ISSUES THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE HAVE NOT REALLY SORTED WITH HOW THEY FACTORED INTO THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THE FIRST IS LOTS OF YOUNG VOTERS THAT WERE TURNED OFF BY GAZA DID NOT COME OUT.

TRUMPS PROPORTION OF THESE WATERS IS INCREASED BECAUSE THE TURNOUT ON THE OTHER SIDE IS LOWER.

ON THE OTHER SIDE IS WHEN JOE BIDEN DROPPED OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF DEMOCRATS WHO FELT THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO JUST HAND THE NOMINATION TO KAMALA HARRIS AS IF HE WERE PASSING THE TORCH.

THOSE RESENTMENTS AND ANXIETIES, HER CAMPAIGN SUFFERED THE BRUNT OF THAT.

NOT TO MENTION THAT THIS WAS A CAMPAIGN FOR SOMEBODY THAT HAD 107 DAYS TO MAKE A CASE TO THE ENTIRE 340 MILLION PLUS POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES ABOUT WHY THEY SHOULD BE THE NEXT LEADER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT LIKE THAT IT'S PROBABLY SOME COMBINATION OF ALL THOSE THINGS AND NOT SIMPLY ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE DECIDED THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MORE APPEALING IN 2024 THEN HE HAD BEEN IN 2020 OR 2016.

>> BEFORE WE GO LET'S GO BACK TO -- YOU HAVE SEVERAL HATS.

DID THE EXPERIENCE OF GOING BACK AND LOOKING AT YOUR WRITING 2012 ON, HAS THAT CHANGED ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> IT HAS ACTUALLY.

ONE, GOING BACK AND READING THE PIECES.

I WRITE THESE ASSESSMENTS THAT LOOK AT WHAT I GOT RIGHT OR WHAT I GOT WRONG, BUT THE OTHER PART OF IT WAS THAT IT MADE THE PATTERNS THAT WE KIND OF SEE THAT WERE NOT AS VISIBLE AT THE TIME MUCH MORE LEGIBLE AND VISIBLE TO ME ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IN RETROSPECT.

THAT WAS ALSO SOMETHING I THINK I TOOK FROM GOING TO THAT.

LIKE THIS WAS CONNECTED TO THIS AND THIS TO THAT AND SO ON.

>> JELANI COBB, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>>> FINALLY SOME WELL EARNED RECOGNITION FOR ANOTHER JOURNALIST.

OMAR, AN AMERICAN AUTHOR BORN IN EGYPT WON THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD FOR NONFICTION FOR ONE DAY EVERYONE WILL HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST THIS.

AND INDICTMENT OF THE GLOBAL RESPONSE TO THE WAR IN GAZA.

WHEN I SPOKE WITH HIM IN MARCH I ASKED HIM IF WRITING THE BOOK FELT CATHARTIC.

HE SAID THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

>> MY DEFAULT MODE IS TO SORT OF PUT IT ON THE PAGE AND MAKE IT SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROBLEM.

THEN THERE IS A CATHARSIS INVOLVED IN THAT.

IN THIS SITUATION THAT WAS NOT THE CASE.

I FINISHED WRITING THE BOOK AND FELT THE LIGHTER.

I FELT NO SENSE OF RELIEF OR REMOVAL.

I THINK WHAT HAS CHANGED FOR ME IS A KIND OF NEGATION OF THAT.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT I DON'T KNOW IF THIS BOOK IS WORTH A DAM OR IT WILL CHANGE ANYTHING.

I CAN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT MY OWN WORK.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT HAD I NOT WRITTEN IT I DON'T THINK I WOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH MYSELF.

ARE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CALL MYSELF A WRITER.

>> THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD IS ONE OF THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS IN AMERICAN LITERATURE.

SPEAKING LAST NIGHT HE SAID, IT'S DIFFICULT TO THINK IN CELEBRATORY TERMS ABOUT A BOOK THAT WAS WRITTEN IN RESPONSE TO GENOCIDE.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.