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And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to we are giddy this morning.

Look out folks.

Welcome to studio for Off the record data centers.

Data centers.

Big story.

Why?

Well, we've moved on from battery plants.

Yeah, I was gonna say this is the new battery that ...Data Centers are Chad's new battery plants.. Battery plants.

It didn't really work.

Yeah, or they just started kind of stalled, in many regards.

And so now we're moving on to the, AI driven data center, you know, massive build.

There's lots of money, pouring in.

I mean, naturally, there's $1 trillion essentially coming on the table for data centers everywhere.

And Michigan has, open land.

We have relatively affordable, electricity water.

We have water and we don't have earthquakes.

We don't have floods.

We just we have, you know, some some some conditions geographi that that lend themselves to it.

And we want jobs we want different types of jobs or, no tie to the automotive industry, but but I mean, but it's this sort of conversation about what kind of future and economic future do we want to build is how I'm thinking a lot about it.

Right?

I mean, I think it was really interesting that when this first announcement about this, data center that was possibly going to be built, in Saline Township, right outside of Ann Arbor, the largest economic investment in Michigan history is people are fighting and.

Well, well, I just want to say and it came out via pres release on a Thursday afternoon.

So I think it's just amazing.

At least it wasn't Friday.

After 5.

Right?

I think it's I just want to put that out there is it's sort of this telling example of, yes, it's some jobs and yes, it can build some things, but a folks who live close by are like, heck no.

But why?

Why?

Heck no.

Oh well, I, there are a variety of reasons.

I think there are a lot of concerns about environmental impacts, water usage, the the state law that they created last year for, for sales and use, taxes and exemptions for these sorts of things.

It does it does have some safeguards in there about environmental protections and everything.

But I think there are still worries in, in, in terms of jobs as well.

I know, you know, a the battery plants were coming in, there were a lot of jobs promises in that in this data centers.

Yes, there's an initial infusion of jobs in there, construction and everything, but they really don't employ that much.

And if you look at the state law, that is allowing the sales and use tax exemption, they really only have to create 30 full time, long term jobs that are 150% o the median wage for that area.

It's a fundamentally different vision of sort of a future of Michigan's economy than what we saw with the EV push, because EV push kind of harkens back to sort of a golden age of Michigan economic development, where you see lots of people going into a factory to work their shift.

You know, you can sort of evoke that imagery when you're pitching these things.

As Beth is saying, these dat centers are largely automated.

They're only attended by a few technicians.

And so the upsides for local communities is essentially tax capture and perhaps the revenue they could bring in at the state level.

But beyond that, you don't necessarily have that sort of this is going to rise all boats.

Explain to people what tax capture is.

It means that they're going to pay a lot of taxes, hopefull to the local community, provided what you have to the local businesses.

Yeah.

But the local folks are saying Nimby.

Okay, put in some pick it up north, right?

I mean, and part of the problem is that when you look at where our infrastructure is at in terms of like electrical grid infrastructure, a lot of the sort of data centers have been erected during the crypto boom.

If you look at Elon Musk's AI project down in Memphis, this thing's running on diesel generators.

And so the propensity for noise pollution is enormous.

There's there's a ton of noise coming out of these.

We saw one in the Upper Peninsula as well.

That was a crypto mine.

And this one also was producing an enormous amount of noise.

You could hear from almost half a mile away.

And the other thing, right, also too, is it just seems like the word affordability is, is sort of what is at the top of mind for everyone, because everything just keeps getting more expensive.

One of the things, too, that we've kind of just only a little bit touc on, is just the amount of energy and electricity, like, right, we talked about water and things, but that these take is... Gingham.

Gingham.

you sort of right.

I mean it is mind bogglin amount of energy that it takes.

Yeah.

Which is a whole other issue in our state when we are an aging infrastructure.

You know, and, and what the energy companies say is, well, no more of this means we can create more of what we want the future to look like.

But there's a lot of concern.

Here's the major problem.

The major utilities are trying to sell this to a public that doesn't like major utilities.

I mean, okay, that's two strikes with the third curveball coming at your head.

There is trustworthy is lawyers.

I mean, they're just don't the public trust in DTE and Consumers Energy is pretty low.

Because of this is, you know, years of various ice storms and knocked out someone's power for 10 to 14 days.

They just and especially in these rural areas, they're the ones that really get hit hardest.

And so Saline Township is not that far outside of Ann Arbor, but it is far enough that they have they have a lot of scars in those kind of areas.

Same thing like this data cente being talked about in Kalkaska and in Howell Township just outside of where I live in.

They just voted to put this on a six month hold.

Yeah.

And we should give credit to Kelly.

How is your colleague at bridge who did some reporting that shows there's at least ten communities throughout the state.

Kalkaska That are being eyed.

One.

Yeah.

Which just this week, actually, it sounds like maybe, you know, the community rose up enough and that one is not going to happen.

And one of the thing was, why?

Why these townships, why these rural areas in the in the the number one reason is they are close to a certain type of high voltage power line.

They can transmit that kind of electricity.

There are a lot of, vacant sites where they used to be auto plant and steel plants in this state.

They're not.

Those plants wer self-sustaining, burning on coal back in the in the 50s.

They can't they don't have power lines, infrastructure that runs them even though they're perfectly good.

There's on just a few miles west of here.

Racer site, where, in between Lansing, Lansing Township and Delta Township.

Totally empty site.

No one can get anyone to develop that site and put a data center there at the same point, I just want to also name like folks can absolutely be against it.

And that makes so much sense.

But you know, the reason that we seem to need this is just this incredible, all extremely huge exponential use, right, of cloud computing.

And AI.

yeah I mean, it was so interesting.

I was at an event earlier this year where some students were talking about, just, you know, how sort of anti building this were and I, and I just said, right, but you know, how many times are you using ChatGPT.

Right.

So like what's, what's the plan then.

Well there's the other.

There' the other part of the problem, the bulk of the electorate, the citizenry that is sitting out there just did not understand one word you just said in that last sentence, okay?

They are not up to speed.

I'm not mind.

I'm not degrading people, myself included.

Okay.

It's just not the people.

It's it's change that.

It's just kind of scary.

That's part of the disconnect.

I think that's fair.

We had, Pete Buttigieg on our show a few weeks ago, and that's exactly what he said, that this is sort of the under-reported un sort of discussed, conversation that is going to sort of portend for our future state moving forward.

And I think that we're just not talking about it.

It brings a couple of elements of uncertainty too, I mean, we're on a our financial markets on a multi-year bull run you know, like the stock indexes hinge on Nvidia, earning reports, these AI chip makers.

And so people are increasingly a little bit nervous abou whether this is a bubble or not.

And if these data center are not yet deployed by the time we really see, you know, how whether this economic growth that the AI boom has brought about is here to stay, it can really it could spell disaster for some of these projects.

And at the same time, we also have environmental activists who are saying tha there's cause for concern here.

We have ambitious goals to have 100% carbon neutral by 2040.

If you're bringing in multiple gigawatts of increased demand for capacity.

While the Trump administration is forcing a coal plant to stay open, it's going to put a lot more strain on you.

But here's the bottom line if it's not here, it's someplace else.

Ohio, Indiana, Wyoming, pick a state.

That's always the argument.

Yes.

And and then to add to that to mean, to Simon's point, people still haven' really seen the, the renewable how the renewable energy build up will look other than if you live in an, in an yet again, a rural area where farm field are just being plowed over and and papered over with, solar arrays.

And so people are just not quite buying the, the, the argument and they're not there.

There's no confidence that thei electricity rates won't go up.

And I mean, and the other ten years the thing the most powerful body right now in the state of Michigan may just be the three people a the Public Service Commission.

I mean, they are more relevant in the legislature right now.

In, in their decision making.

They were late to the party on calling a public hearing.

And I notice that incorrectly, it was it was under significant pressure.

Yeah.

And I will say I'm sure have missed that.

Well they I don't think they missed I mean it was on purpose.

DTC was trying to use its right to not have a, have a, have a hearing.

They were trying to use the laws that DTE helps write.

And and just get this thing greenlit and just go right straight to the finish line and, and of course, you know, Craig Monger asked the governor, you know, a direct question like, do you do you want to see a hearing, on this?

And she said, yeah, but but we don't have to bring everybody in a room.

Right.

Her, well, her office walked it back that night and said, no, they can people can submit, written comments.

That's, perfectly good to our way of getting getting your voice heard.

The other thing, I think we're going to get a lot of emails for, for Chad comparing lawyers to DET and consumers, I think they probably won't appreciate that.

And that's probably says a lot about DTE and consumers reputation right now.

But I also think, you know there's a lack of trust there, but there's also a lack of trust that this is, you know, people were led to believe five years ago, just five years ago, that these battery plants were going to be the boom and that the state needed to support these and that rural communities were were screwing up this advancement in, in technology.

And now we're moving that aside, and we'r looking at AI data centers and and s whether it is the future or not, I think there's a huge amoun of distrust and a lot of Nimby that is always there with these types of things.

And there's a temptation, I think, to to want to go all in o sort of an economic opportunity that seems like it is the future.

But when you look globally, electric vehicle transition is happening.

It may not be happening in the United States now, but it is happening in other countries.

And there's like a real tangibl economic good that's produced, I don't think the long term business case for AI, like, you know, there's not this deluge of businesses buying their services right now.

To the extent there is something about the state of Michigan, we're a little bullheaded, aren't we,?

Collectively.

You know what that means.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

One more thing that I think is interesting in all of this is because it is sort of new.

And as these discussions progress, there isn't necessarily a Republican or a Democratic side to it.

Right?

I, I would assume that the R's and D's and the governor are would would love to have these, would they not, except for the people back home.

Right.

That's what I'm think the Republicans are, are coming out against them because they see opportunity.

They see politically they're they're areas are the ones are getting saddled with these.

And so I don't se a lot of them jump up and down.

But I think what I mean more though is when we're talking about AI and things like this, like these are issues that there haven't necessarily been staked yet, like policy on about.

Is it a Republican policy or Democratic policy in the future?

And I think that' where some of this is just like it's just got some interesting crosscurrents about it, sor of community first big business.

But then you have Dana Nessel and it's just it's a there's an interesting dichotomy as people try to figure out both what are the political ramifications of it, but also the economic.

This is not DOA, but it's on life support.

Yes.

wouldn't go that far quite yet.

I mean, these problems there's a lot of money involved.

One and, I mean, I think government officials are doing their best to fast track some of these projects.

There's a lot of infrastructure requirements for these data centers.

Then for some of the EV projects that were planned in terms of their scope and the logistical, implications, and watch the money that's being given to these local communities, too, right.

Like suddenly if you're going to be able to build like a really nice this or a really nice that for your community, is that worth it?

Well, but you know what?

If I'm against it you know what I'm going to say?

Oh, you're going now.

You're going to bribe me, I mean, that create a whole other problem in itself.

Sure It's a term community benefits.

And like in Detroit, we have fights.

Every tim someone wants to build something and they don't want to actually put some community benefits into it.

I mean, we saw this with the arena.

We saw this with like wit the Chrysler or the Jeep plant.

They got expanded.

And so this is they're jus coming in right, the front door.

Here's our community benefit.

You're going to build your new fire hall and, and some trucks and and help yo with this other infrastructure also because like we're going to have this like, you know, thi this infrastructure of our own is a multibillion dollar investment.

And we want good fire protection just in case the thing, you know, catches catches a flame.

All right.

Let's talk about protection of our school kids with a legislative package o $321 million to help the schools address mental health needs and safety needs, but.

Well, let's see what the budget this year we go.

We took five years after the loss of lives at Oxford High School, at the hands of a young mass shooter for Michigan lawmakers to create a new $321 million school grant program for educators to beef up security at their schools and also address the needs the mental health needs of their students.

Lansing School Board official have signed up for this money, but 22 other schools and 11 immediate school districts are asking a federal court to erase some of the language in the legislation because, quote, the strings that are attached, end quote, are unacceptable.

Here's why we know that that happens.

But they want us to well they want school districts to, give up attorney client privilege, when there is a situation related to, as they describe it, a mass shooter, it' actually a mass casualty event.

Attorney client privilege is what protects individuals, teachers, superintendents everybody not from transparency, but from being abl to talk to their attorney about if there's litigation.

He reports that his side never got a chance to change the languag because is the first time that, even legislators saw that was at the time they were about to vote.

The only other school district joining the lawsuit in this area is the Gratiot-Isabella District, as for the Lansing School Board decision to opt into the program her may be the reason behind that.

Some people are in a financial situation.

Some districts, not some people.

They are in a financial position right now that any additional funding they can find is something that they are going to take.

It could be a short term gai or a potential long term loss.

Yeah.

Any school tha wants the safety mental health grant must file a request by November 30th, which is why they're asking the courts to jump in with the decisio to block that before that date.

So why would the legislature attach this language to this legislation that is badly needed in our school system?

Mr.. S well, I mean, when you look at the fallout from the Oxford shooting and some of the other scandals that have rocked educational institutions throughout Michigan, not just that, including like if you look at the Nassar scandal, in Michigan State University, these educational institutions are talking to attorneys, and the attorneys are going to tell you that you should not put yourself in a position where you're essentially conceding, liability in these situations because they can prove financially disastrous in a moment where public schools are already feel like they're sort of on shaky ground fiscally.

And so, I mean, I can see why they wouldn't be opposed.

Yeah, I think it's their attorneys.

I think it's also their insurance companies largely, and their attorneys for the insurance companies telling them do not waive this privilege, because then the insurance companies are the ones who have to pay out if there is a settlement that results from that.

And, yeah, I mean, I, I think the legislature obviously, they're being sued over this language.

There's a lot of, concerns among schools, but I think the legislature is making an effort to address something that is a little bit shocking to most people who send their kids to a public school.

If there's a shooting there, and there are people with the understanding of what occurred and how it occurred and what led up to it, and they're claiming attorney client privilege.

I mean, I, I think for most people that is kind of a concern.

How do you address what happened, fully?

How do you prevent it from happening again?

If the very people who can give that information are citing attorney client privilege?

But yet those people do have a fiduciary responsibility to the school district, do they not?

I mean, the point tha the school boards people need, you know, we're we're liable here.

We've got to protect what we think we need to protect.

Right.

But, Tim, you're putting a fiduciary responsibility above the responsibility of the safety of students in that sense.

So I think, I mean, obviousl there's a balancing act, right?

Because everybody has a right to attorney client privilege.

But, I, I think it is worthwhile question to explore.

And I think some of the issu or the controversy surrounding this is it's basically here's this pool of money that you can possibly get if you agree to sign this waiver.

Right.

And so I think that's where there's this added level of these schools having to decide.

And some schools that would really like to be able to, you know, get this grant money for services for mental health or school safety.

Right.

And, and in order to do that and some schools have we should know have Detroit signed off have saying you should give m where's the paper?

I'll sign it.

So that's where, you know, there's like these sort of two conversations happening, which is absolutely what Beth is talking about.

And this issue.

But that's tied int this pool of money that it is.

We know a lot of schools are looking for as much, you know as many dollars as they can get.

I mean, this kind of tie back to my earlier comment about who do you trust more, the energy company or the lawyers?

Mayb you don't trust the lawyers here because you don't really know what you're giving up when you do this.

I mean, if you are, the and the parent of a child who was murdered in a school or shot and badly injured, like one of those parents in Oxford, you want some semblance of justice.

And it's not necessarily you want money.

You want answers.

What happened?

Why did you why did you, like, call this kid's parents i and tell them how you know, how disturbed they were about him and then let the parents leave?

And then the kid gets the gun out of that youth that the parents bought him, his backpack and shoots up the school.

This is what happened with with, with the Crumbley family and Oxford.

And so this is what just really, kind of, like, really aggravates people or parents and, and this and school officials that there... And it also just keeps legislators a little up at night as well because they also se the liability that, that, that that it could be on, the hands of the state, in these cases.

I don't know where this is headed.

I don't know if the courts are going to step in.

They've got to get this thing done before November 30th.

If, if they're going to declare it unconstitutional, put an injunction on it.

The clock is ticking on that pretty, pretty fast clock that they put on this on this, piece of legislation that didn't really get a lot of public debate.

Again, again, bac to the process of appropriations in this legislature.

Major things with big consequence are just not getting any air of, of, of vetting, in, in the, in the process.

Well, it does come, but it's after the fact.

Yes.

We're vetting that right now at the table.

Sort of supposed to be the other way around.

I'm trying to remember to off the top of my head is Sima Patel, judge Sima Patel, the on who also is overseeing this one?

I think it is.

And it's just oh my goodness... This judg who has, Court of Claims judge who not has not only overseeing the nine bills case between, the state House and the Democratic Senate, also next week overseeing a hearing on the, you know, new controversial wholesale tax for marijuana.

And this I mean, there's a lot in front of this judge right now.

All right, Elissa Slotkin asked for and got protection.

How come?

She got capital protection around the clock after the president of the United States, lashed out at her and a couple of other Democratic lawmakers who are past either members of the military service or the intelligence community and Elissa Slotkin being a former CIA officer, they posted a video, essentially telling members of the military that they do not have to follow orders.

They believe are illegal.

And this was they didn't directly talk about it, but this was kind of hinting at the the Trump administration' and the Department of Defense, is an ongoing bombin campaign of boats in the, in the Caribbean that they suspect suspect are, smuggling drugs.

But there is little, like, legal, evidence or proof that they are all actually, carrying drugs.

And so, they put this video out, the United States turned aroun and went on his, Truth social, platform and, and went on a tirade saying they should be tried.

Arrested, tried and, for, for, for sedition and, and, with punishable by death wa the, was the president's quote.

And so he talked you know, the president of United States talked openly about, the death penalty for Eliss Slotkin, a senator from Arizona, and a half dozen or a couple of handful of, of Democratic reps.

Silence.

This is unprecedented, is it not?

Yes.

I mean, I think that's why it's it's silence, because it's just sort of like, you know, I mean, Chad just laid it out.

I mean, I think the thing that really hit me was at one point, like there was some had that, you know, that Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary.

Right.

That was asked, is the president saying, right, that tha they should be killed basically.

And it was like the headline was like, you know, no, president doesn't think members of Congress should be killed.

Like just the fact that that is where we're at right now, in American politics and, and and just the stem of violence that we have seen.

I mean, I think I was here the week of the Charlie Kirk assassination.

Right.

And then all of the politicians come out and say, we need to bring down the temperature.

This is no bringing down the temperature.

All right, Garlin Gilchrist.

Any of you see the video that he did?

And what what did you all think?

Well, I will say we have an intern at Michigan Public who has been trying to get a bunch of us to do that video of us, and all of us are like, no.

And so that she was first.

Okay.

He did a lip sync to some songs, which I did not recognize.

Okay.

You're not meant to Tim.

Thank you.

It's not age appropriate?

It's not for you.

Thank you.

I feel so young.

Anyway, they did a lip sync with a congresswoman and it got some attention, did it not?

I mean, I did a TV story on it.

Yeah, well, what did you explain that?

If you didn't understand it, what did I understand?

I sort of understood.

Look, this is looking.

He's desperate for publicity, but it's also.

This is what a lot of I mean, Jocelyn Benson, did a video recently to on her campaign.

We know, Governor Gretchen Whitmer has, was sort of one of the first statewide politicians in Michigan who's really leane into the trend of sort of taking what are these viral video and then doing them themselves.

What do you think?

I mean, I yeah, I think what you said, I think he wants attention.

I he's not doing well in the polls.

His campaign is struggling.

And I think maybe this gives him a little bit of a boost in a certain demographic, but it is.

Yeah, it was it was interesting.

I think also, people have to be a little bit careful with those, though, because people who don't understan those TikTok trends will think will kind of be turned off by it or like very confused by it.

I also think sometimes they can go too far.

I know Governor Whitmer has gotten in trouble for a few of hers.

So I, I don't know, it's it' an interesting, interesting one.

He was on the show.

He made a point that part of his target audience is particularly young voters, but particularly young men.

So here you are on TikTok.

I mean, that's the gateway to what he's looking for.

The careers of modern Democratic politicians in a competitive primary can rise and fall.

In a viral moment, it Mallory McMorrow was a great example of someone who built a Democratic career after a viral moment.

It has to be authentic, though.

I think that's the thing that I've noticed too.

Good, right?

Yeah, no, I think I mean, it's got to be good.

But I think also for younger voters, like, they can just they can smell authenticity.

And when it's, you know, cringe or not, I was sort of hoping he'd d Tammi Terrell and Marvin Gaye, but nobody remembers them.

You can put in a request for that.

No, it's not my job.

It's not my job.

My job is to thank you guys, the Jocelyn Benson video where she said, you can trust me.

And then there's this guy falling, and she lets the guy fall.

That that video is going to get manipulated into a television ads against her that you can't trust Jocelyn Benson.

She will, just till this election fall to the ground.

I mean, I can see this in the little hat.

So there's danger in doing these viral videos.

You think you're reaching the young demographic here?

They're going to turn around and and use it on and with the, the older voters.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You guys are very good.

So are you for watching.

See you more here for Off the Record.

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Learn more at bellwether pr.com.

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