>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY, RHODE ISLAND SENATOR SHELDON WHITEHOUSE JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK: "THE SCHEME: HOW THE RIGHT WING USED DARK MONEY TO CAPTURE THE SUPREME COURT," ABOUT THE DECADES-LONG PLOT TO BUY FAR-RIGHT, ANTI-MAJORITARIAN RULINGS FROM THE SUPREME COURT.

PLUS, THE GREAT LIDIA BASTIANICH IS CELEBRATING 25 YEARS OF TEACHING AMERICA TO COOK ON PBS.

SHE JOINS ME ON THAT, HER MENTOR JULIA CHILD, AND JUST IN TIME FOR THANKSGIVING, HER SECRET TO A PERFECT TURKEY.

>> Braude: WHEN THE DRAFT OPINION SIGNALING THE END OF ROE V WADE WAS LEAKED IN MAY, MANY WERE SHOCKED-- NOT ONLY THAT THE SUPREME COURT WAS POISED TO OVERTURN A RIGHT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT-- BUT AT HOW A LEAK OF THIS MAGNITUDE COULD COME OUT OF THE COUNTRY'S HIGHEST COURT.

AND NOW, IT LOOKS LIKE THIS WASN'T THE FIRST LEAK OF ITS KIND.

A FORMER ANTI-ABORTION LEADER, REVEREND ROB SCHNECK, REPORTEDLY SENT A LETTER TO CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS IN JUNE TELLING HIM ABOUT INSIDE INFORMATION HE GOT BACK IN 2014, AND SEEMINGLY POINTING THE FINGER AT JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO.

IN THE LETTER, SCHNECK SAYS A DONOR TOLD HIM SHE WOULD BE "DINING AT THE HOME OF JUSTICE ALITO" AND "MIGHT BE ABLE TO LEARN THE STATUS" OF THE HOBBY LOBBY CASE ON WHETHER THE FIRST AMENDMENT GRANTS PRIVATE COMPANIES THE RIGHT TO DENY BIRTH CONTROL COVERAGE TO EMPLOYEES ON THE BASIS OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

AFTERWARDS, THE DONOR TOLD SCHNECK HOW THE COURT WAS GOING TO DECIDE, WEEKS BEFORE IT WAS MADE PUBLIC; INFORMATION HE USED TO PREP HIMSELF, AND THE C.E.O.

OF HOBBY LOBBY FOR THE ANNOUNCEMENT.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO VERY WEALTHY CONSERVATIVES USING THEIR MONEY, POWER AND ANONYMITY TO EXERT UNDUE INFLUENCE OVER THE SUPREME COURT?

RHODE ISLAND SENATOR SHELDON WHITE HOUSE MAKES THE CASE THAT LEAKS ARE JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

HE LAYS IT ALL OUT IN HIS NEW BOOK: "THE SCHEME: HOW THE RIGHT WING USED DARK MONEY TO CAPTURE THE SUPREME COURT."

SENATOR WHITEHOUSE JOINS ME NOW TO DISCUSS.

SENATOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH OR HAVING ME ON, I APPRECIATE IF.

>> Braude: EXPAND WHAT IS THE SCHEME.

>> IF YOU GO BACK IN AMERICAN HIS HISTORY THERE SAY PHENOMENAL CALLED REGULATORY CAPTURE WHERE REGULATORY AGENCY GETS TAKEN OVER BY THE INDUSTRY IT IS SUPPOSED TO REGULATE.

ENVISION RAILROAD BARONS TAKING OVER ITS RAILED ROAD COMMISSION THAT SETS THE RATES FOR THEIR RAILROAD.

MY CASE IN THIS BOOK IS THAT THAT IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE SUPREME COURT.

THAT IT WAS TAKEN OVER, CAPTURED, IN EFFECT, BY RIGHT WING SPECIAL INTERESTS WHO HAD BEEN DE NEATED IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTS OF OUR GOVERNMENT, AND THEREFORE WENT TO THE LEAST DEMOCRATIC BRANCH, THE SUPREME COURT, TO TAKE IT OVER AND USE IT TO IMPOSE THEIR WILL.

AND THEY DID SO USING THAT VERY DANGEROUS TOOL IN A DEMOCRACY, DARK MONEY.

>> SO LET'S GO BACK ABOUT 50 YEARS TO A COUPLE OF THINGS I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON AND YOU MENTION IN YOUR BOOK, THERE WAS A REPORT FROM A CORPORATE LAWYER IN 1971 DONE AT THE REQUEST OF THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IN WHICH YOU CONCLUDED THAT AN ACTIVIST-MINDED SUPREME COURT MIGHT BE THE BEST INSTRUMENT FOR SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHO WROTE THAT THING?

>> A TOBACCO AND CORPORATE LAWYER NAMED LEWIS POWELL.

>> Braude: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO HIM?

>> WELL, WHAT DID HAPPEN TO HIM.

ABOUT FOUR MONTHS AFTER HE TURNED THAT REPORT IN TO THE U.S. DHAM BER-- CHAMBER OF COMMERCE HE WAS SWORN IN TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AS MR. JUSTICE POWELL.

AND IN HIS SEAT ON THAT COURT, HE VERY CAREFULLY OVERYEARS BUILT A PATHWAY FOR CORPORATE POWER USING HIS SEAT ON THE SUPREME COURT TO CRAFT AN INCREASINGLY BROAD ROLL FOR CORPORATIONS THAT AMERICAN POLITICS AND ELECTIONS.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, AT HIS CONFIRMATION HEARING, DID HE DISCLOSE THIS THING HE HAD PRODUCED FOR THE U.S. CHAMBER?

>> HE DID NOT.

THE UNITED STATES SENATE AS COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF THIS VERY, VERY SIGNIFICANT PIECE OF WRITING THAT HE HAD PERFORMED FOR A VERY, VERY POWERFUL LOBBY GROUP.

TODAY FAR AND AWAY THE MOST POWERFUL LOBBY GROUP IN WASHINGTON.

>> SO FAST FORWARD 40 YEARS, I THINK EVERYBODY WATCHING HAS HEARD ABOUT CITIZENS UNITED, UNLIMITED, ANONYMOUS CON TRI BEUTIONS CHANGED THE WORLD BIG TIME, OBVIOUSLY FROM THE SUPREME COURT.

BUT I WANT TO SEGUE INTO A FOOTNOTE IN YOUR PIECE THAT WAS I THINK YOU DESCRIBED IT AS A BIT OF CONFESSION, ON A GREAT MANY OCCASIONS DEMOCRATS AT MANY LEVELS FAILED TO FIGHT BACK OR GIVE PUBLIC WARNING AS THE SCHEME PROGRESSED.

IT WAS WORSE THAN APPEASEMENT, IT WAS ACCEPTANCE.

AND I THINK THAT IN THAT FOOTNOTE YOU WEREN'T TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT NOT HOLDING A HEARING ON MERRICK GARLAND BUT WOULD THAT NOT FALL INTO THAT SAME CATEGORY OF ACCEPTANCE OF ONE THE MOST GRO TESS, MOMENTS OF SUPREME COURT CONFIRMATION OR NONCOR FIR MAITION HIS STREE?

>> YES, YOU KNOW, AS DEMOCRATS WE OFTEN GET INVOLVED IN EPISODIC EMOTING ABOUT OUR DEFEATS.

BUT WE HAVE NOT BEEN AS AS GOOD AT LOOKING CAREFULLY AT WHAT CAUSED THEM.

AT WHAT THE APPARATUS WAS UP AGAINST US AND HOW IT ACHIEVED SUCCESS.

SO WE DON'T TELL THE PUBLIC THE ACTUAL FULL STORY IS.

AND SO WE COMPLAINED AND GROWSED ABOUT GARLAND NOT GETTING A HEARINGS AND SAID HOW UNPRECEDENTED IT WAS.

WE NEVER WENT BACK AND CONNECTED THE DOTS TO THE DARK MONEY FORCES, THE TO FUND MITCH McCONNELL AND THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE, THE DARK MONEY FORCES THAT PICK WHO GETS ON TO THE SUPREME COURT.

THE DARK MONEY FORCES THAT PAY FOR THE ADVERTISING FOR THOSE NOMINEES AND TV AD CAMPAIGNS AND THE DARK MONEY FORCES THAT THEN TURN UP IN THE COURT IN LITTLE FLOT ILAS OF BREAFER WRITING-- FRENSD OF THE COURTS, AND GIVE THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY JUDGES THEIR OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS.

>> Braude: AND WHAT ARE PRODUCED OUT OF THAT IN ONE AMAZING WEEK IN JUNE OF THIS YEAR WAS A DECISION ON GUNS AND THE ABILITY TO CARRY ONE IN PUBLIC FOR SELF-DEFENSE THAT THE PUBLIC DIDN'T AGREE WITH, THERE IS A POLL, 56 PERCENT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT.

A LIMITATION ON WHAT THE EPA COULD REGULATE IN TERMS OF ADMISSION.

HERE IS ANOTHER POLL FROM PROGRESS WHERE 60% OF AMERICANS ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

AND THEN OF COURSE DOBS OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE WERE 57 PERCENT OF AMERICANS ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

IS THERE A PLAN TO DEAL WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES, WITH THESE ANTI-MAJORITARIAN DECISIONS OR IS ACCEPTANCE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN HERE TOO?

I MEAN THE PUBLIC, VOTERS DIDN'T ACCEPT DOBS IN A NUMBER OF STATES.

WE KNOW THE IMPACT THAT HAD.

BUT HOW ABOUT YOUR 49 COLLEAGUES, MAYBE 50 IN THE SENATE?

>> I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A BIG SHIFT IN RECENT MONTHS AND THAT WAS MUCH ACCELERATED BY THE PUBLIC REACTION TO THE DOBS DECISION.

I THINK SENATORS, DEMOCRATIC SENATORS ARE MUCH MORE ALERT TO AND AWARE OF, CONCERNED ABOUT THE CAPTURE OF THE COURT.

THEY'RE MORE AND MORE READING, OTHER WRITERS THAN MYSELF, PEOPLE LIKE LINDA GREENHOUSE AND DALIA LITHWICK RVEDZ JEFF TOOBIN AND OTHERS TALKING ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THE CAPTURE OF THE COURT.

ABOUT LOOKING AT THE FORCES WHO OPERATE BEHIND THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY JUSTICES.

AND SO I THINK WE'RE GOING THROUGH A VERY IMPORTANT SHIFT AS A CAUCUS TO PAY MORE ACCURATE ATTENTION TO WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON AND WITH THAT, I THINK WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE A CLEARER UNDERSTANDING OF WHATTING HAS GONE WRONG AT THE COURTS THAT OPENED THE APERTURE TO BETTER AND STRONGER REFORM OF THE COURT.

>> Braude: WELL, FORGET YOUR COLLEAGUES FOR A SECOND.

FOR ANY OF US THAT WATCHED THE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS AND YOUR TUTORIAL WITH YOUR LITTLE WHITE BOARD OR WHATEVER IT WAS, WHERE YOU ARE DOING AN IMPORTANT EDUCATIONAL THING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, ABOUT DARK MONEY, I MEAN PEOPLE LIKE LARRY TRIBE AND FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER HAVE BEEN ON THE SHOW REPEATEDLY.

THEY WERE ON THE FEDERAL COMMISSION ON THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY WENT INTO THOSE MEETING SUPPORTING TERM LIMITS.

KAIMG OUT SUPPORTING EXPANSION BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE TERM LIMITS REQUIRE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, EXPANSION JUST REQUIRES THE MAJORITY OF VOTE IN CONGRESS.

NOT THAT EITHER IS EASY.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THOUGH YOU HAVE LEGISLATION THAT WOULD TERM LIMIT THEM, IS IT AFTER 18 YEARS, AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> CORRECT.

AND WE MAKE IT RETROACTIVE.

SO IT WOULD ACTUALLY GO INTO EFFECT SOONER THAN 18 YEARS, OBVIOUSLY THERE WILL BE LEGAL QUARRELS ABOUT WHETHER IT CAN BE RETROACTIVE.

BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE RIGHT PLACE TO START.

WE ALSO HAVE A WHOLE ARRAY OF TRANSPARENCIES LEGISLATION RELATED TO THE COURT BECAUSE A LOT OF THE MISCHIEF THEY GET AWAY WITH, THEY GET AWAY WITH BECAUSE THINGS ARE DONE FROM BEHIND SCREENS, BEHIND MASKS OR IN HIDING.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU ALSO, ISN'T THERE LEGISLATION THAT REQUIRES DARK MONEY BE, THERE BE SUNSHINE BEING THAT BEST IS-- WOULDN'T YOU REQUIRE A CONTRIBUTION OVER TEN GRAND OR SOME SUCH THING, THE DONOR BE DISCLOSED?

>> YEAH, WE DO.

AND WE APPLY THAT TO POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS FOR SUPREME COURT NOMINEES ALSO, NOT JUST FOR ELECTION TO CONGRESS.

SO THAT IS PORNTS.

FINDING OUT WHO IS BEHIND THE AMICUS CURIIA BRIEFS WHICH BASICALLY FALSE FRONT BRIEFS IS IMPORTANT.

AND AS RECENT EVENTS SHOW, MUCH, MUCH MORE HONEST DISCLOSURE BY THE JUSTICES OF WHERE THEY ARE GETSING GIFTS, HOSPITALITY, AND AMOLUMENTS IS IMPORTANT.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET TO GIFTS AND DINNER IN A MOMENT.

BUT ONE MORE THING ABOUT THIS PUBLIC DISCLOSURE, WHICH TO ME IT SHOULDN'T BE SEEN SAS A RADICAL THING.

IF YOU ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH A SANE REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUE WHICH MAY SOUND OXYMORONIC TO SOME.

AND YOU SAY TO HIM OR HER WHAT POSSIBLE OBJECTION COULD ONE HAVE TO SIMPLY DISCLOSING THE SOURCE OF THE CONTRIBUTION, WHAT IS THE RESPONSE?

>> THE RESPONSE IS DRIVEN BY THE POWER OF A HANDFUL OF VERY, VERY BIG REPUBLICAN DONORS OVER THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN CONGRESS, IS DRIVEN BY THE FACT THAT MITCH McCONNELL HAS MADE THIS AN ABSOLUTE RED LINE WITHIN IT'S CAUCUS, AGAIN DRIVEN BY A HANDFUL OF VERY, VERY BIG FUNDERS.

PEOPLE WHO CAN WRITE TEN, 20, 15 MILLION DOLLAR CHECKS TO BACK UP HIS POLITICAL OPERATION.

SO IT'S HARD TO HAVE A LEGIT CONVERSATION BECAUSE THE SHADOW OF THE WHIP FROM THE DONORS IS VERY MUCH OVER THE HEADS OF THIS CAUCUS.

>> BY THE WAY, SPEAKING OF MITCH McCONNELL, I AM SAYING THIS TO VIEWERS, IS A BRILLIANT FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY ON HOW MITCH McCONNELL IS A MERE SENATOR DECIDED AFTER ROBERT BORK WAS DENIED CONFIRMATION TO GO ON THIS CRUSADE WHICH WHICH HE HAS STAYED ON LASER LIKE, NOT UNLIKE YOU ON YOUR RELENT ITSNESS ON THIS ISSUES.

LET'S GO TO THIS ALLEGED ALITO LEAKING AS I MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING.

EVEN THOUGH JUSTICE ALITO SAYING THIS IS NOT THE TRUTH, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" SPENT MONTHS WORKING ON THE STORY BEFORE IT PUBLISHED IT.

AND THEY CONCLUDE THAT REVEREND-- REVEREND SCHNECK ARGUMENT WAS SPELLING AND FACTUAL.

MY UNDERSTANDING YOU WROTE A LETTER TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE ASKING WHAT HE IS DOING TO LOOK INTO THIS.

DO YOU EXPECT A MEANINGFUL RESPONSE FROM CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS?

>> I THINK SOONER OR LATER THE CHIEF JUSTICE IS GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE IN A SINCERE AND SERIOUS WAY WITH THESE PROBLEMS.

SO WE'RE GOING TO KEEP PURSUING HIM TO DO EXACTLY THAT.

THIS BEGAN BACK IN SEPTEMBER WHEN MY COORDINATE IN THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COURT SUBCOMMITTEE JOHNSON AND I WROTE TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE ABOUT THIS VERY ORGANIZATION AND ABOUT HIS PATTERN OF BRINGING IN SLE WEALTHY RIGHT WINGER TOSES WINE AND DINE THE JUSTICES OF THE COURT AND WITH THE SPECIFIC INTENTION OF TRYING TO INFLUENCE THEM IN THEIR DECISION.

AND HOW THE COURT HAD GONE ALONG WITH IT OR HOW CERTAIN JUSTICES HAD GONE ALONG WITH IT AND WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

AND WE GOT AN EXTREMELY BLAND REPLY FROM A COURT OFFICIAL BACK SAYING WE HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS.

SO WHEN THIS BROKE WE WROTE BACK TO HIM AND SAID HEY, YOU REALLY NEED TO ANSWER OUR QUESTION.

SAYING THAT WE HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHETHER IT WAS BROKEN.

AND IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF A COURT THAT HAS NO INQUIRY, NO PLACE WHERE COMPLAINTS CAN BE LODGED, NO FACT FINDING, NO DETERMINATION AND AND NO REPORTING AS TO WHAT THE OUTCOME WAS AS REGARDS ETHICS CONCERNS.

SO THEY HAVE TO AT SOME POINT MAKE THE CODE OF ETHICS REAL AND PRACTICAL IN THE COURT BY BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT EVERYBODY HAS AROUND AN ETHICS CODE, TO INVESTIGATE, DETERMINE AND DECLARE WHAT THE RESULT WAS.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY THAT PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY LOOKED INTO WAS HAVING FORMER FEDERAL JUDGES SERVE AS SOME SORT OF OVERSIGHT BOARD TO HEAR QUESTIONS ABOUT RECUSAL AND ETHICS.

SPEAKING OF RECUSAL, THE ONE THAT PUTS ME TOTALLY OVER THE EDGE.

EVERYBODY WATCHING OBVIOUSLY KNOWS ABOUT GINNI THOMAS AND CLARENCE THOMAS.

CLARENCE THOMAS IS THE LONE DISSENTER OF A CASE ABOUT TURNING OVER TRUMP RECORDS.

LO AND BEHOLD WE FIND OUT WHAT IS IN THOSE TRUMP RECORDS, AMONG OTHER THINGS, MESSAGES HIS WIFE SENT TO PEOPLE LIKE THE CHIEF OF STAFF FOR DONALD TRUMP.

AND THAT SAME CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS IS WILLING TO STAND UP AND DECRY THE LEAK OF THE DOBS DECISION BUT IT'S BEEN CRICKETS ON THE SMOO OF-- ISSUE OF RECUSAL ON THE PART OF JUSTICE THOMAS.

IS THERE ANY ARGUMENT AGAINST THOMAS RECUSING HIMSELF IN CASES WHERE HIS WIFE HAS INVOLVEMENT, SENATOR?

>> SO THIS IS A DOUBLE DECKER PROBLEM.

THE ORIGINAL PROBLEM WAS THAT JUSTICE THOMAS SAID HE KNEW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, HADN'T A CLUE, NOT THE FAINTEST ING-- INKLING OF HIS WIFE'S ENGAGEMENT IN THIS INSURRECTION ACTIVITY.

THAT IS A FACTUAL PROPOSITION.

FACTUAL PROPOSITIONS LEND THEMSELVES TO INVESTIGATION.

THE CHIEF JUSTICE HAS SHOWN THAT HE IS WILLING TO INVESTIGATE THINGS BY HAVING AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE ALITO-DOBS OPINION LEAK LEAK, WHY NOT WE HAVE SUGGESTED TO THE CHIEF JUSTICE, INVESTIGATE THE FACTS OF WHAT THOMAS KNEW AND WHEN WE KNEW IT SO WE ACTUALLY HAVE A COMMON FACTUAL PLATFORM TO DECIDE WHETHER HE SHOULD RECUSE HIMSELF.

THAT IS THE FIRST SLIGHT.

THE SECOND IS THAT HE VOTED AGAIN RECENTLY IN A RELATED CASE INVOLVING INVESTIGATIONS AROUND THE INSURRECTION.

AND BY NOW WHATEVER HE KNEW IN THAT EARLIER CASE, BY NOW HE DEFINITELY KNOWS WHAT HIS WIFE WAS UP TO BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN IN ALL THE NEWSPAPERS.

AND YET HE STILL DID NOT RECUSE HIMSELF AND WE DON'T HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT.

SO THE SILENCE AND THE LACK OF DISCIPLINE AND THE LACK OF ORDER AND PROCESS, PECULIAR AROUND A COURT WITH RESPECT TO THESE ETHICS THINGS.

IT REALLY BECOMES A VERY ACUTE PROBLEM FOR THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

>> GOING FORWARD, I READ AN INTERVIEW YOU DID, I THINK IT WAS IN FEBRUARY OF THIS YEAR WITH THE GUARDIAN, IN WHICH YOU SUGGESTED YOU THOUGHT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT WOULD DO ON ROE V. WADE WAS NIBBLE AWAY IT AT IT BY THE WAY I SHARED YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

WE WERE BOTH OBVIOUSLY DEAD WRONG.

AND I WORRY THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT PEOPLE IN SOME STATES ROSE UP AND VOTED AGAINST REPUBLICANS ON THE ISSUE OF THE DOBS CASE, THAT THE FACT THAT THEY DIDN'T NIBBLE AWAY AT IT, BUT TOTALLY OVERTURNED A 50 YEAR OLD PRECEDENT JUST EMBOLDENS THEM TO DO MORE OF THE SAME GOING FORWARD.

IS THERE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT JUNE WAS JUST AN OPENING ACT FOR THIS?

>> I THINK THERE IS EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR AMBITIONS TO CHANGE THE WAY AMERICA OPERATES IN TO ALIGNMENT WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE VERY BIG DONORS WHO GOT THEM OUT OF THE COURT IN THE FIRST PLACE, IS VERY, VERY STRONG.

THEY ARE NOT A COURT THAT WANTS TO HONOR PRECEDENT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO JUST CALL BALLS AND STRIKES.

THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE STRIKE ZONE.

THEY DON'T WANT TO BE MODEST.

THEY WANT TO BE ACTIVISTS.

AND WHEN THEY FIND AN OPENING THEY SWING FOR THE FENCES.

SO THERE'S NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT ON AN ISSUE LIKE ABORTION, THEY WOULD BE SO UNRESTRAINED BUT WHEN THEY MOVE ON TO OTHER ISSUES, THEY SUDDENLY FIND A RESTRAINT TO BE A VALUE.

IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS, I THINK, THAT PUTTING A SPOTLIGHT ON THEM AND KEEPING THE SPOTLIGHT ON THEM IS IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE THEY DO GO OUTSIDE THE CHALK LINES ON THE DECISION.

AND TO CALL THEM OUT FOR THE VIOLATION OF APPELLATE PROCESS AND TRADITION AND IN SOME CASES EVEN LAW, I THINK IS ESSENTIAL AT THIS STAGE.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, I WILL TELL YOU IN ADVANCE, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I WANT THE ANSWER TO BE IN ADVANCE.

THE ANSWER I WANT TO BE IS YES THEY DO AND THE QUESTION IS DO YOUR CONSTITUENTS CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES?

I DON'T MEAN THE INDIVIDUAL ISSUES.

OBVIOUSLY SOME PEOPLE CARE ABOUT GUNS.

OTHERS CARE ABOUT THE RIGHT TO REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM.

OTHER PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THE ABILITY OF EPA TO REGULATE EMISSIONS FROM POWER PLANTS.

BUT DO YOUR CONSTITUENTS CARE ABOUT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF DARK MONEY AND JUSTICES BEING BOUGHT AND THEIR DECISIONS BEING BOUGHT.

OR IS THIS JUST A PERSONAL CRUSADE?

>> I THINK IT'S BOTH.

WHEN I STARTED, IT WAS A PERSONAL CRUSADE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT I SAW BUT I FELT OBLIGED TO SHARE WITH PEOPLE.

BUT AS THE COURT HAS INCREASINGLY MADE THE DECISION FOR ME, IT HAS BECOME MORE APPARENT ENT BOTH TO ADVOCACY GROUPS LIKE CIVIL RIGHTS GROUPS AND ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS AND GOOD GOVERNMENT GROUPS, THAT SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG AND IT HAS ALSO BECOME MUCH MORE APPARENT TO REGULAR VOTERS THAT SOMETHING HAS GONE SERIOUSLY WRONG AT THE COURT.

AND SO I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE IGNORED MY CASE IN THE BEGINNING, ARE NOW TAKING A SECOND LOOK AT IT AND THINKING YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO THIS NOW.

SO THERE HAS BEEN IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE A VERY BIG SHIFT.

I'M NOT A LONELY GUY ANY LONGER.

>> THAT WAS THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR.

SENATOR WHITEHOUSE AS ALWAYS, THANKS, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

AND THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

GOOD TO BE ON WITH YOU.

>> SENATOR WHITEHOUSE'S BOOK IS THE SCHEME, HOW THE RIGHT WRING USE DARK MONEY TO CAPTURE THE SUPREME COURT.

NEXT UP, THERE ARE JUST A LITTLE MORE THAN 24 HOURS LEFT UNTIL THANKSGIVING, AND IF YOU'RE ANYTHING LIKE ME, ALL YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IS FOOD.

SO RATHER THAN FIGHT IT, I'VE CHOSEN TO EMBRACE IT.

AND I'VE ENLISTED ONE OF THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS TO JOIN ME.

YOU MAY KNOW HER BY HER CATCHPHRASE: >> TUTTI A TAVOLA A MANGIARE!

>> Braude: THAT WOULD BE THE GREAT LIDIA BASTIANICH, HOST OF LIDIA'S KITCHEN ON PBS, WHO'S CELEBRATING HER 25th YEAR ON PUBLIC TV, THIS FALL.

SHE'LL BE AT EATALY BOSTON ON DECEMBER 6th, BUT FIRST, SHE'S JOINING ME HERE ON "GREATER BOSTON."

LIDIA IS A TWO-TIME EMMY AWARD-WINNER, A SEVEN-TIMES JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF, A BEST-SELLING COOK BOOK AUTHOR, AND THE RESTAURATEUR BEHIND EATALY AND BECO.

GOO TO SEE YOU, LYDIA.

>> PLEASURE BEING ON THE SHOW, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: SO LYDIA, JUST SIGNING BOOKS AT BECO.

WHAT IS THE TYPICAL DAY IN THE LIFE OF LYDIA.

WHAT DO YOU DO ALL DAY?

>> IT IS ALL ABOUT FOOD, WELL, YOU KNOW, I DO VISIT MY RESTAURANTS ON A REGULAR BASIS, TALK WITH THE CHEFS, TALK THE MENU.

AND I DO EVENTS LIKE THIS, BOOK SIGNINGS.

I DO COOKING CLASSES AT OUR STORE EATALY, YOU KNOW, EATALY IS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

SO I TRAVEL, COMING TO BOSTON AGAIN, HAVE I BEEN NOT TOO LONG AGO.

AND IT IS ALL ABOUT FOOD AND TRAVELING AND SPREADING THE GOOD WORD.

>> WELL, YOU'RE NOT DOING ANY OF THOSE THINGS ON THANKSGIVING BECAUSE YOU TOLD ME ON THE RADIO, YOU ARE COOKING FOR 22 FAMILY AND FRIENDS WHICH IS JUST TERRIFYING TO ME.

SO LET'S THINK SMALL.

WHAT IS THE SECRET TO THE PERFECT TURKEY ON THANKSGIVING, LYDIA?

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS ABOUT GETTING A GOOD TURKEY.

I LIKE AN ACTUAL TURKEY, NO HORMONE, NONE OF THAT STUFF.

>> YEAH, I LIKE TO SEASON IT WELL, TWO DAYS BEFORE.

LEAVE IT IN THE REFRIGERATOR, LET IT DRY NICE AND THEN YOU PUT IT IN THE OVEN BUT I TAKE SOME MELTED BUTTER, SOME WINE, SOME SEASONING AND I SOAK THE CHEESE CLOTH AND COVER THE BEARD WITH THAT, AND PERIODICALLY GO BACK AND FORTH AND BASE THE BIRD WITH THE JUICES AND VEGETABLES THAT ARE IN THE ROASTING PAN.

THE QUESTION IS NOT TO OVERCOOK IT, WITH THE THERMOMETER.

MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE ON TIME.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT I DO AT THE END WHEN I REMOVE THE CHEESE CLOTH, I TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF BALSAMIC REDUCTION AND I BRUSH THE BIRD, ABOUT HALF AN HOUR BEFORE.

AND IT IS DELICIOUS IT BECOMES NICE MAHOGANY COLOR.

SO YOU KNOW, IT IS GOOD PRODUCTS AND SIMPLE PREPARATION.

>> SO JUST TEXT ME AND TELL ME WHAT TIME TO COME OVER.

SPEAKING OF KOMENTING OVER, I'M COOKING FOR SIX ON THANKSGIVING.

I LOVE COOKING BUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE COMING OVER I AM CAUSED GREATS ANXIETY.

DID YOU FEEL ANXIETY A BUNCH OF YEARS AGO WHEN TWO PEOPLE NAMED JULIA CHILD AND JAMES BEARD WALKED INTO YOUR RESTAURANT TO CHECK OUT YOUR RISOTTO.

>> I CERTAINLY DID YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER.

WHEN THEY WALKED IN WAS PEEKING FROM THE KITCHEN WINDOW.

AND I SAW THESE TWO BIG HUMONGOUS FIGURES COMING IN, BECAUSE THEY WERE BOTH BIG.

AND I DID GET A LITTLE PAL PI TAITION.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, YOU ARE SURE OF YOURSELF, YOU DO THE BEST THAT YOU CAN AND YOU MOVE ON.

SO A A LITTLE PAL PI TAITION IS GOOD.

YOU WILL DO A GREAT JOB.

>> Braude: EASY FOR YOU TO SAY, YOU OBVIOUSLY DEVELOPED A RELATIONSHIP WITH HER, I KNOW YOU TOOK HER TO THE HOUSE AND ULTIMATELY SHE HAD YOU ON HER SHOW.

AND BY THE WAY WE HAVE SOME FABULOUS FOOTAGE, THIS IS FROM A 1993 EPISODE OF JULIA CHILD'S SHOW COOKING WITH MASTER CHIEF.

WERE YOU THE FEATURED MASTER CHIEF THAT DAY.

AND AFTER YOU DEMONSTRATED THE RECIPE, YOU ALL ATE TOGETHER AT THE DINNER TABLE, THREE GENERATIONS OF YOUR FAMILY THERE.

>> THAT IS AT MY HOUSE.

>> ST REALLY, LOOK, OH MY GOD.

LOOK AT THAT, THAT IS JUST INCREDIBLE.

AND BY THE WAY, IT'S FAIR TO SAY, WERE IT NOT FOR THOSE APPEARANCES ON JULIA CHILD'S SHOW AFTER YOU MET HER, THERE WOULDN'T BE 25 YEARS OF YOU ON PBS, WOULD THERE?

>> WELL, NO.

SHE WAS ACTUALLY VERY INSTRUMENTAL.

THAT SHOW KIND OF PUT ME IN FRONT OF A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND THE PRODUCER SAYS YOU KNOW, LYDIA, ARE YOU PRETTY GOOD.

HOW ABOUT A SHOW.

AND SHE REALLY EGGED ME ON.

SHE SAID LYDIA, YOU CAN DO IT.

YOU CAN DO ITALIAN FOOD, SO SHE WAS, WE REMAINED FRIENDS UNTIL THE VERY END.

AND I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I REALLY STUDIED HER MANNERISM ON TELEVISION.

THE WAY SHE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE VIERS UNDERSTANDING AND OUTCOME OF THE COOKING.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT, YOU KNOW, A SHOW IS ALL ABOUT.

IF YOU HAVE THE VIEWERS TO VIEW HALF AN HOUR OF THEIR TIME, THEY HAVE TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM THAT SHOW.

>> Braude: I THINK 25 YEAR, THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.

SO I AM ASSUMING A COUPLE OF POPES, BENEDICT AND FRANCIS MUST HAVE BEEN WATCHING THE SHOW AND SAID I LIKE THAT WOMAN AND WHAT SHE DOES, NO?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I HAD THE HONOR OF COOKING FOR BOTH OF THEM WHEN THEY CAME HERE TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND THERE I GOT A LITTLE APPREHENSION-- APPREHENSIVE, WHAT DO YOU COOK THE POPE, THE FIRST ONE WAS POPE-- AND THAT S YOU KNOW STRKS-- I STILL PUNCH MYSELF S IT POSSIBLE, NOT ONE BUT TWO POPES.

LET ME TELL YOU, THEY LOVE TO EAT.

THEY HAVE THEIR WINE.

THEY LOVE DESSERT.

AND IT WAS WONDERFUL BECAUSE WHEN POPES TRAVEL, THEY DON'T-- SLEEP IN HOTELS OR EAT IN RESTAURANTS.

THEY GO TO THE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

SO I MOVED IN WITH THE POPE FOR THE TWO DAYS.

>> MOVED IN WITH THE POPE, THAT SAN EXPRESSION MOST OF RUSS NOT ABLE TO USE, LYDIA.

SO 25 YEARS OF DOING THIS, DO YOU STEP BACK AT ALL, I KNOW YOU ARE BUSY AS ANY PERSON ON THE PLANET AND THINK ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT THINGS ARE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CAMERA J BOTH IN TERMS OF YOU, AS TEACHER AND THE VIEWER AS STUDENT, 25 YEARS IN?

>> I THINK THAT ALL THE TIME, I FEEL A CERTAIN RESPONSIBILITY.

AND I FEEL A LOT OF GRATITUDE AND REWARD IN THE POSITION THAT I HAVE.

THE RESPONSIBILITY IS THAT I CONVEY THE SIMPLIST, THE TRUE ITALIAN CUISINE BECAUSE I'M A CONDUIT OF CUISINE, NOT A CHEF INVENTOR.

SO I HAVE THAT RESPONSIBILITY THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ITALY, I BRING TO MY HOME HERE IN AMERICA NOW, MY NEW HOME.

AND THEN THERE IS THAT THEY GO OUT THERE BEGUNKED AND DO IT AND COOK.

WHEN I GET AN EMAIL THAT SAYS LYDIA, YOU EMPOWER ME, I FEEL GOOD, I FEEL CAN I DO IT.

THAT IS THE ULTIMATE.

I REALLY FEEL LIKE OH, I DID MY JOB.

>> Braude: DO YOU STILL LEARN THINGS FROM YOUR WORK?

DO YOU LEARN NEW THINGS ABOUT COOKING.

>> ALL THE TIME.

>> Braude: LIKE WHAT, GIVE ME SOMETHING IN RECENT TIMES THAT WAS NEW TO LYDIA.

>> IT IS ENDLESS.

YOU KNOW, I GO TO ITALY THREE, FOUR TIMES A YEAR.

CERTAINLY NOW THAT COVID IS OVER, AND DO I JUST THAT.

I VISIT FAMILY BUT DO I RESEARCH.

NOW ITALY HAS 20 REGIONS SO I TRAVEL TO WHICHEVER REGION I FEEL, YOU KNOW.

BECAUSE EACH REGION SORT OF SHINES IN A DIFFERENT TIME OF THE YEAR, YOU KNOW, THE, AND SO LIKE NOW IN OCTOBER, NOVEMBER, I WOULD GO OFF AND BUT SOME OF THE LATEST THINGS, YOU KNOW, IN THE SOUTHERN REGIONS OF ITALY, WHETHER IT IS SICILY OR CALABRIA, THOSE ARE THE REGIONS, BECAUSE I'M FROM THE NORTH, STUFF THAT I DIDN'T KNOW.

LIKE NOW IT SAUL OVER THE PLACE, LET'S SAY A FEW THINGS.

-- THE CHINESE HAD IT ALL THE TIME.

THEY USE IT ALL THE TIME, THE I TRALLIANS HAVEN'T STRKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW WHAT ST, THEY SORT OF SPRINKLED WITH SALT AND THE PRESSURE IS PUT ON THEM AND ONE OF THE SORT OF SEEPS OUT, THAT KIND OF FERMENTED JUICE OF THE ALICI, OF THE BEANS AND THE SALT AND ALL THAT, THAT IS WHAT IS SORT OF INTENSE FLAVOR.

AND ST GREAT STRKS OR THE OF BRINGS A DISH TO A DISH OF PASTA.

>> Braude: LET ME JUST SAY IF IT TASTES ONE TENTH AS GOOD AS IT SOUND STS A HIT.

LID YARKS HAPPY THANKSGIVING, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOUS TO YOU, TO EVERYBODY, HAPPY THANKS GIVING.

ENJOY, LISTEN, RELAX, DON'T BE SO UP TIGHT, YOU KNOW WHAT, GIVE THEM A GOOD BOTTLE OF WINE, NICE WINE AND WILL YOU BE JUST FINE.

>> Braude: IT'S A DEAL, WORKING YOUR MAGIC AGAIN, LYDIA, SEE YOU SOON.

>> THAT'S