>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> FINALLY, A BREAKTHROUGH.

ISRAEL AND HAMAS AGREE ON A FOUR-DAY TRUCE TO EXCHANGE ISRAELI HOSTAGES FOR PALESTINIAN PRISONERS.

VETERANGOTIATOR GERSHON BASKIN JOINS ME.

>>> PLUS, I SPEAK WITH LUIS MORENO OCAMPO TO GET HIS TAKE ON ARGENTINA'S CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

>>> AND, MICHELLE MARTIN ASKS ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS ABOUT HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY EXPLORING THE ROOTS OF RACISM FROM AMERICA.

>>> AND FINALLY, THE MUSIC AND LIFE LESSONS IN THE MUSIC OF YUSUF/CAT STEVENS.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

NOW THAT BOTH ISRAEL AND HAMAS HAVE SIGNED OFF ON A HOSTAGE DEAL, WE ARE LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE DETAILS.

AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL TELLS US THE FIGHTING IS SET TO PAUSE BEGINNING 10:00 A.M. LOCAL TIME, 3:00 IN THE MORNING NEW YORK TIME THURSDAY.

IF ALL GOES ACCORDING TO PLAN, AT LEAST 50 HOSTAGES HELD BY HAMAS WILL BE RELEASED, IN EXCHANGE FOR SOME 150 PALESTINIAN PRISONERS IN ISRAELI JAILS.

MUCH-NEEDED HUMANITARIAN RELIEF WILL ALSO COME TO GAZA.

THE PAUSE COULD POTENTIALLY LAST LONGER, WITH AN EXTRA DAY ADDED FOR EACH ADDITIONAL TEN ISRAELI CAPTIVES RELEASED.

THE HOSTAGES' FAMILIES FACE AN EXKRUSH YAFTING WEEK, NOT KNOWING IF THEIR LOVED ONES WILL BE AMONG THOSE RELEASED.

H >> THIS IS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT, WHEN YOUR EYES CLOSE AT NIGHT AND WHEN YOU WAKE UP NEW THE MORNING, AND IT'S ALL CONSUMING.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE NOT PROCESSING.

WE'RE JUST LIVING THROUGH, UNTIL EVERY ONE OF THESE HOSTAGES ARE HOME AND OUR SOLDIERS ARE SAFE.

>> FOR DISPLACED PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN GAZA, THE PAUSE CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH.

>> Translator: WE HOPE THE CEASE-FIRE WILL BE GOOD.

WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS CEASE-FIRE.

WE HAVE BEEN HOPING FOR IT.

WE PRAY FOR PEACE, FOR ALL THESE PEOPLE, SO WE CAN BE DONE WITH THESE CHALLENGES WE ARE FACING.

>> BOTH SIDES ARE CLEAR -- THIS IS NOT A CEASE-FIRE.

ONCE THE PAUSE IS OVER, THE FIGHTING CONTINUES.

GERSHON BASKIN IS A VETERAN HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE PLAYERS IN THIS BREAKTHROUGH DEAL.

HE PLAYED A ROLE IN THE RELEASE OF ISRAELI SOLDIER GILL AD SCHAT IN 2011.

YOU'VE BECOME A REGULAR NOW ON THIS PROGRAM, GIVING US A SENSE OF THE CRISIS AT HAND, BUT BREAKTHROUGH, FINALLY.

FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO THIS DEAL.

>> WELL, THIS WAS THE FIRST GOOD DAY WE'VE HAD SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR ON OCTOBER 7th.

ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, I THINK IT'S A PRETTY GOOD DEAL.

IT'S ONE THAT I PROPOSED ON THE SECOND OR THIRD DAY OF THE WAR, AND PASSED IT OVER TO THE ISRAELIS AND HAMAS PEOPLE, THE QATARIS AND THE EGYPTIANS.

I TALKED ABOUT A BIGGER DEAL, ALL THE WOMEN AND ALL THE CHILDREN IN EXCHANGE FOR THE WOMEN AND MINOR PRISONERS IN ISRAEL, BUT THIS IS A GOOD START.

50 IS A GOOD NUMBER TO BEGIN WITH, IT WILL HAPPEN IN FOUR DAYS.

AND AS YOU SAID, IT CAN BE EXTENDED TO FIVE DAYS OR SIX OR SEVEN OR EIGHT.

I THINK OUR GOAL SHOULD BE TO GET ALL THE CIVILIAN HOSTAGES OUT OF GAZA.

THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE AND GAZA ARE GETTING THE DESERVED BREAK FROM THE BOMBING THAT THEY NEED SO BADLY.

HUMANITARIAN AID WILL BE ENTERING AT A MUCH BIGGER QUANTITY.

I THINK EVEN THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS CAN USE A BREAK.

THEY'VE BEEN MORE THAN A MONTH IN THE FIELD, IN NOT THE BEST CONDITIONS THAT ANYONE WOULD WANT TO BE IN, SO, ALL AROUND, EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE RISKS, AND THERE ARE DANGERS, A PAUSE IN THE FIGHTING MAKES THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS EXPOSED TO DANGER.

AND IT GIVES HAMAS TIME TO REARM AND REGROUP AND REPLAN THEIR STRATEGY FOR THE NEXT PHASE OF THE WAR, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS BRINGING THESE CHILDREN AND WOMEN HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES.

>> NO DOUBT, THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT HERE.

BUT IT STRUCK ME WHEN YOU SAID THAT THIS WAS A DEAL, IN FACT, YOU PROPOSED AN EVEN LARGER DEAL JUST DAYS INTO THE WAR.

WHY WAS THAT MET WITH RESISTANCE AT THE TIME?

WAS IT COMING MORE FROM THE ISRAELIS OR WAS IT HAMAS?

AND WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU ABOUT AN AGREED-UPON DEAL NOW?

WHO IS FEELING MORE VULNERABLE AT THIS POINT?

>> IT TAKES TIME FOR ANY KIND OF HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION TO BE READY TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE PARTIES.

THEY ALL THINK THEY HAVE OTHER OPTIONS, RATHER THAN NEGOTIATING.

THESE ARE VERY STRANGE NEGOTIATIONS, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DIRECT.

HAMAS AND ISRAEL ARE NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

IT'S DEPENDING UPON THIRD PARTIES WHO HAVE THEIR OWN INTERESTS AND THEIR OWN WAYS OF WORKING.

IT IS ESSENTIALLY A ONE-SIDED NEGOTIATION.

ISRAEL RESPONDS TO PROPOSALS PUT FORTH BY HAMAS AND EITHER SAYS YES OR NO.

ON THIS PARTICULAR PROPOSAL, PRESIDENT BIDEN WEIGHED IN HEAVILY ON THE QATARIS TO IMPROVE SOME OF THE TERMS FOR THE ISRAELIS, BUT THE OTHER VERY BIZARRE THING ABOUT THESE NEGOTIATIONS IS THAT ISRAEL IS ESSENTIALLY NEGOTIATING PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE DETERMINED TO KILL.

AND JUST IMAGINE THAT KIND OF NEGOTIATION.

ISRAEL IS DETERMINED TO REMOVE ALL THE LEADERS OF HAMAS, THE MILITARY LEADERS AND THE POLITICAL LEADERS, AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING DECISIONS ON THESE HOSTAGES.

>> YOU MENTIONED EACH PARTY IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS HAVING AN INTEREST.

IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT THAT'S THE CASE FOR THE ISRAELIS AND HAMAS, BUT FOR A MEDIATOR, YOU WOULD ASSUME THAT THEY WOULD HAVE NO INTEREST OTHER THAN PLAYING AN OBJECTIVE MEDIATOR.

SO, WHAT IS THE QATARI INTEREST HERE?

>> WELL, THE QATARIS HAVE SPENT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BE INTEGRATE D INTO THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

QATAR IS A STATE THAT SUPPORTS TERRORISM, THEY HAVE SUPPORTED HAMAS FOR YEARS.

THEY HOST THEIR RELATIONSHIP LEADERSHIP, THEY HAVE FUNDED HAMAS WITH MORE THAN A BILLION DOLLARS OVER THE YEARS.

THEIR AL JAZEERA ARABIC-SPEAKING STATION OPPOSED TO THE ONE THAT SPEAKS ENGLISH SPEAKS FOR HAMAS.

THEY HAVE PLAYED ROLES IN NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S. AND TALIBAN.

THEY HAVE PLAYED ROLES IN NEGOTIATING WITH IRAQI INSURGENTS AT THE TIME.

IT'S A VERY BIZARRE COUNTRY WITH A VERY BIZARRE SET OF INTERESTS.

NO ONE CAN REALLY PUT THAT MUCH PRESSURE ON THEM.

THE UNITED STATES HAS A LARGE MILITARY BASE IN QATAR.

AND EUROPEANS DESPERATELY NEED THE QATARI GAS TO KEEP WARM IN THE WINTER, SO, NO ONE IS GOING TO PUT QATAR ON THE LIST OF NATIONS THAT SUPPORT TERRORISM, WHICH WOULD CUT THEIR ABILITY TO INVEST IN THE WORLD, WHICH THEY'RE DOING.

AND THEY WANT TO APPEAR IN THE FAVOR OF THE WEST, BECAUSE THEY ARE BUSY BUYING COMPANIES ON NASDAQ AND SILICON VALLEY AND PROPERTIES IN LONDON AND QATAR AIRLINES FLIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> HOW ARE WE EXPECTED TO SEE THIS HAPPEN?

WILL THE PUBLIC SEE ANY IMAGES, IN YOUR VIEW?

BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WHEN TWO ELDERLY LADIES WERE RELEASED, WE SAW HAMAS HAND THEM OVER TO THE RED CROSS.

NOW, WE'RE GETTING INFORMATION THAT THAT WILL NOT BE THE CASE HERE LIKELY, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN AMONG THIS FIRST AMOUNT OF HOSTAGES WILL BE YOUNG CHILDREN.

SO, WHEN DO YOU EXPECT THE PUBLIC TO EITHER SEE OR GET CONFIRMATION THAT THEY HAVE MADE IT INTO ISRAEL SAFELY?

>> I THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT BEFORE THIS EVENING IS OVER, THE ISRAELIS WILL GET THE LIST OF THE FIRST 10, 12 HOSTAGES TO BE RELEASED.

THERE WILL BE A SIX-HOUR PAUSE IN ISRAELI FLYING DRONES OVER THE GAZA STRIP IN ORDER TO ENABLE HAMAS TO ORGANIZE THE HOSTAGES.

I ASSUME THAT WHAT THEY WILL DO IS USE SEVERAL DIFFERENT CONVOYS OF IDENTICAL VEHICLES LEAVING FROM DIFFERENT LOCATIONS IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE ISRAELIS FROM ACTUALLY IDENTIFYING WHERE THE HOSTAGES ARE COMING FROM.

THEY WILL ARRIVE TO THE BORDER CROSSING WITH EGYPT AND THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS WILL RECEIVE THEM AND CHECK THEM, VERIFY THEIR IDENTITIES, AND TURN THEM OVER TO THE EGYPTIAN SIDE OF THE BORDER, WHERE THEY'LL BE TRANSPORTED TO THE ISRAELI SIDE.

ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, THEY'LL BE TAKEN IMMEDIATELY TO HOSPITAL IN ISRAEL FOR MEDICAL CHECKUPS, I ASSUME THAT THEIR FAMILIES WILL BE WAITING FOR THEM AT THE HOSPITALS, WHERE THEY WILL BE TAKEN.

SHORTLY AFTER THEY'RE ALL CHECKED MEDICALLY AND IF THEY DON'T NEED MEDICAL TREATMENT, THEY WILL CERTAINLY NEED PSYCHOLOGICAL TREATMENT, BUT I IMAGINE THAT THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE PEOPLE WILL WANT TO TALK TO THEM AS MUCH AS PO POSSIBLE, AS GENTLY AS POSSIBLE, IN ORDER TO GATHER FROM THEM INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH OVER THE LAST 47 DAYS.

>> YEAH, I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY ONE REPORT THAT IDF SOLDIERS WILL BE ESCORTING THE YOUNG CHILDREN TO ISRAEL AND ARE ALREADY INSTRUCTED TO NOT DIRECTLY ANSWER QUESTIONS REGARDING THE FATE OF THEIR PARENTS.

OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF THESE CHILDREN WILL BE COMING HOME AS ORPHANS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS, I MEAN, I KNOW THIS IS THE FURTHEST WE'VE COME AND IT LOOKS LIKE BOTH SIDES HAVE SIGNED OFF ON IT, BUT SPECIFICALLY, WHEN IT COMES TO HAMAS AND HOW MERCURIAL THEIR LEADERSHIP HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT ANY LAST-MINUTE HICCUPS?

>> I'M WORRIED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IF THE CEASE-FIRE IS VIOLATED.

THERE'S A LOT OF ANGER, THERE'S A LOT OF HATRED, IN BOTH BY THE PART OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS AND HAMAS FIGHTERS.

ANYTHING COULD GO WRONG ON THESE DAYS AHEAD OF US, INCLUDING INDIVIDUALS TAKING ACTION ON THEIR OWN.

THERE ARE EVEN SCENARIOS THAT COULD HAPPEN.

WHAT IF TOMORROW, THE NEXT DAY, THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE DISCOVERED THE LOCATION OF THE HAMAS LEADERS IN GAZA?

WOULD THEY TAKE THE SHOT OR THEY WOULDN'T TAKE THE SHOT?

I THINK THEY PROBABLY WOULD, IF IT WAS A ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY, AND THEN THE DEAL IS OFF, IT'S FROZEN, IT'S FINISHED.

>> AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO THE REST OF THE HOSTAGES?

WHAT WOULD THEN HAPPEN TO THE REST OF THE HOSTAGES?

>> WELL, THEY WOULD BE LEFT BEHIND AND MORE NEGOTIATIONS WOULD HAVE TO TAKE PLACE, OR THE WAR WOULD IMMEDIATELY PICK UP AND SEARCH AND RESCUE OPERATIO S WOULD BEGIN, BUT IT'S ALL VERY FRAGILE, PARTICULARLY WHEN THE TWO PARTIES HAVE ZERO TRUST IN EACH OTHER, AND THERE'S SO MUCH EMOTION INVOLVED HERE FROM BOTH SIDES.

>> THERE HAS BEEN SOME CONFUSION OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE RED CROSS.

FROM OUR UNDERSTANDING, THE RED CROSS WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE HOSTAGES, BUT WHAT'S UNCLEAR IS WHICH HOSTAGES SPECIFICALLY.

IS IT THE 50 IN THE FIRST TRANCHE THAT HAMAS HAS AGREED TO TURN OVER, OR WILL THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE REMAINDER OF THE HOSTAGES HELD IN GAZA?

>> RIGHT, THERE WAS SOME TALK THAT THE RED CROSS WOULD BE HAVING ACCESS TO ALL THE HOSTAGES WHO WERE LEFT BEHIND, THAT THEY WOULD BE TAKEN IN, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO VISIT THEM, THEY WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BRING MEDICINE WITH THEM.

I THINK IT'S VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN, BUT I WOULD BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED IF IT DOES.

I THINK THIS WAS ACTUALLY AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT CAME OUT OF WASHINGTON, AND NOT FROM QATAR OR FROM SOME PLACE ELSE.

THE RED CROSS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS, ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, THEY SHOULD.

THEY ARE NOT A PARTY TO THE CONFLICT.

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO.

THEY WILL CERTAINLY BE ON THE GROUND IN GAZA TO RECEIVE THE HOSTAGES.

THEY WILL ALSO VERIFY THE IDENTITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS THAT ARE RELEASED BY ISRAEL AND SUPERVISE THAT RELEASE, AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY ARE A TRUSTED THIRD PARTY.

BUT THERE'S A LIMIT OF WHAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO BY HAMAS.

AND THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE BY HAMAS SINCE ITS FORMATION.

THEY NEVER GAVE ACCESS TO THE RED CROSS BEFORE A DEAL WAS MADE.

>> GIVEN THAT, AND GIVEN ITS INDEPENDENCE, I JUST SPOKE WITH A FAMILY MEMBER OF A HOSTAGE IN THE LAST HOUR, AND I'M HEARING CONSISTENTLY THAT THERE IS A LOT OF DISAPPOINTMENT AND FRUSTRATION THAT THERE WASN'T MORE PRESSURE FROM THE RED CROSS SPECIFICALLY TO HAVE ACCESS THROUGHOUT THESE SEVEN WEEKS TO THESE HOSTAGES.

DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE?

I MEAN, YOU KNOW THESE HAMAS LEADERS.

>> I ALSO KNOW THE PEOPLE FROM THE RED CROSS, AND I KNOW THEY'VE MADE EVERY EFFORT TO HAVE ACCESS TO DO THE JOB THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.

THEY ARE NO A PARTY TO THE CONFLICT AND THEY DON'T CARRY ARMS, THEY'RE NOT PEACEKEEPERS, THEY DON'T WEAR A HELMET THAT ALLOWS THEM TO GO INTO A WAR ZONE.

THEY HAVE TO BE ALLOWED IN.

AND WHEN THEY GO INTO A WAR ZONE, THEY'RE TAKING GREAT PERSONAL RISK TO THEMSELVES.

I KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO VISIT THE HOSTAGES, HOW MUCH THEY WANT TO FULFILL THEIR MANDATE.

IT'S NOT A MATTER OF PRESSURE.

I DON'T THINK HAMAS COULD BE PRESSURED INTO IT, UNLESS THE UNITED STATES WAS WILLING TO USE THE ULTIMATE WEAPON AGAINST THE ULTIMATE STICK AGAINST QATAR, AND THAT'S THE THREAT TO PUT THEM ON A TERRORIST -- STATE THAT SUPPORTS TERRORISTS LIST, BUT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT WILLING TO DO THAT, SO, THERE'S A LIMIT.

THE RED CROSS ITSELF HAS NO ABILITY TO PRESSURE.

>> YOU ARE WELL-KNOWN WITHIN THIS ORBIT OF HOSTAGE NEGOTIATIONS, AND SADLY, YOU'VE BECOME WELL-KNOWN INTERNATIONALLY AS THE FACE OF WHAT GOES ON BEHIND THE SCENES, AND WHAT'S COME TO LIGHT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH SOME OF THESE OFFICIALS AND LEADERS, NAMELY ONE OF THE LEADERS OF HAMAS, WHO YOU HAVE MAINTAINED A RELATIONSHIP WITH FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, UNTIL JUST RECENTLY.

YOU DECIDED TO STOP COMMUNICATING WITH HIM, YOU WERE VERY PUBLIC ABOUT THAT.

IS THERE ANYTHING MORE THAT YOU'D LIKE TO SHARE ON THAT FRONT, AND HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING FROM HIS END?

>> WE WERE IN CONTACT FOR 17 YEARS, AND OVER THE 17 YEARS WE SPOKE AND COMMUNICATED MORE THAN 1,000 TIMES.

WE MET FACE-TO-FACE FOUR TIMES, TWICE IN GAZA, AND TWICE IN EGYPT.

IN 2021, I WAS TRYING TO PUSH HIM TO AGREE TO MEET WITH ME SOMEWHERE IN A COUNTRY THAT ALLOWS HIM TO VISIT, IT WAS NORWAY, OR SWITZERLAND, AND IT ALMOST HAPPENED.

OVER THE LAST MONTHS, INCLUDING A MONTH BEFORE THE WAR, I WAS PUSHING HIM TO MEET TOGETHER IN CAIRO, FOR US TO BRAINSTORM TOGETHER TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BREAK THE DEADLOCK BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

HE LEFT GAZA BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN, APPARENTLY KNOWING THAT THE WAR WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND HE BECAME THE SPOKESPERSON OF THE WAR, AND IN DOING SO, HE HAS ACTUALLY BECOME A DIFFERENT PERSON THAN THE ONE THAT I KNEW.

IN FACT, I SPOKE TO A JOURNALIST YESTERDAY FROM NORWAY WHO WAS IN BEIRUT A FEW DAYS AGO AND MET HIM, AND HE WAS ALSO VERY SURPRISED WHEN HE HAD A CONVERSATION, BECAUSE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, HE WAS DENYING THAT HAMAS DID THE THINGS THAT IT DID, AND SHORTLY AFTER THAT, HE WAS LEGITIMIZING IT AND SAYING THAT THEY WOULD DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND FOR A PERSON WHO I SPOKE ABOUT LONG-TERM ARRANGEMENTS AND EVEN POSSIBILITIES OF PEACE, TO TALK ABOUT THE ANNIHILATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND IT NOT HAVING ANY RIGHT TO EXIST, HE'S SIMPLY NOT THE SAME PERSON THAT I KNEW.

AND THERE'S NO POINT OF ME TALKING TO HIM.

I DO ADMIT THAT I HAVE SENT HIM MESSAGES SINCE I CUT OFF WITH HIM, BECAUSE IF HE WOULD HELP TO SAVE HUMAN LIVES, I WOULD CONTINUE TO SPEAK WITH HIM.

BUT I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S IN THAT POSITION ANYMORE.

>> GERSHON BASKIN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

I HOPE WE WILL HAVE SOME GOOD NEWS THE NEXT TIME WE SPEAK.

>> ME, TOO.

>>.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW, AS WE ENTER A NEW PHASE OF WAR, QUESTIONS ARE BEING RAISED ABOUT WHAT JUSTICE WILL LOOK LIKE IN THE LONG-TERM.

POPE FRANCIS MADE SOME DAMNING REMARKS TODAY.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: THIS MORNING, I RECEIVED TWO DELEGATIONS.

ONE OF ISRAELIS WHO HAVE RELATIVES HELD HOSTAGE IN THE GAZA STRIP, AND ANOTHER OF PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE RELATIVES IMPRISONED IN ISRAEL.

THEY SUFFER SO MUCH.

AND I HEARD HOW BOTH SIDES ARE SUFFERING.

THIS IS WHAT WARS DO.

BUT HERE, WE HAVE GONE BEYOND WARS.

THIS IS NOT WAR.

THIS IS TERRORISM.

>> BUT HOW DO WE GO ABOUT PROSECUTING ALLEGED CRIMES?

JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER PROSECUTOR OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT LUIS MORENO OCAMPO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS DEAL, THIS HOSTAGE DEAL THAT HOPEFULLY WILL GO INTO EFFECT IN JUST A FEW HOURS.

FROM A HUMAN RIGHTS PERSPECTIVE, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO IT?

>> WELL, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A NEW VISION.

WHAT VISION?

JUST VISION.

PROTECT BOTH.

PROTECT PALESTINIAN VICTIM AND ISRAELI VICTIM.

PROTECT BOTH.

WHEN ISRAELIS BOMB PALESTINIANS, IT IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT HAMAS WAS INTENDED.

HAMAS ATTACK ISRAEL TO PROVOKE ISRAEL.

TO PROVOKE THE WAR.

TO PROVOKE THE BOMBING OF PALESTINIANS.

AND THAT'S WHAT HAMAS DID.

HAMAS DOES NOT CARE ABOUT PALESTINIANS.

IN FACT, HAMAS IS USING PALESTINIANS AS A SHIELD.

WHICH IS A WAR CRIME, BY THE WAY.

BUT -- SO, FOR ME, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A NEW VISION TO PROTECT BOTH.

>> YEAH, I WANT TO READ, FOR OUR VIEWERS, WHAT YOU RECENTLY SAID IN DESCRIBING THE WAR AND WHAT STARTED THE WAR, IN AN INTERVIEW.

YOU SAID WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th WAS A GENOCIDE, BECAUSE HAMAS' INTENTION IS TO DESTROY THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

FURTHERMORE, IT IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, A MASSIVE ATTACK AGAINST THE CIVILIAN POPULATION AND THE TAKING OF HOSTAGES IS A WAR CRIME.

>> YEAH.

>> AND YOU WENT ON TO SAY, YOU'VE BEEN CRITICAL OF ISRAEL'S RESPONSE, SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO THE BLOCKADE AND THERE'S BEEN CONCERN, OF COURSE, ABOUT POTENTIAL FORCED DISPLACEMENT.

GIVEN THE ICC'S ROLE, WHAT INFLUENCE AND WHAT ROLE COULD IT PLAY AS AN INDEPENDENT POST-WAR INVESTIGATION BEGINS, HOPEFULLY, WHEN THIS WAR IS OVER, ISRAEL'S NOT A SIGNATORY TO THE ICC.

THE COURT DOES, HOWEVER, HAVE JURISDICTION OVER GAZA.

>> YES.

IN MY -- I WAS THREE YEARS INVOLVED IN THIS CONFLICT WHEN I WAS A PROSECUTOR, THEN, IN 2015, PALESTINE BECAME A STATE PARTY, AND IN 2021, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ACCEPTED TO OPEN INVESTIGATION THERE, AND FEW DAYS AGO, THE CURRENT PROSECUTOR WENT TO EGYPT AND TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO INVESTIGATE BOTH SIDES.

BUT FOR ME, THE PROBLEM IS, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT PROSECUTORS OR JUDGES, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE LATE -- THREE, FOUR YEARS, WE NEED TO STOP THE PROBLEM NOW, SO, WHEN ISRAEL UNDERSTANDING IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DO THIS WAR.

THIS NEGOTIATION SHOULD BRING A NEW VISION.

LOOK, HOW MANY DAYS, 40 DAYS, DOING THIS BOMBING AND KILLING?

HOW MANY HOSTAGES WERE RESCUED?

ZERO.

ZERO.

HOW MANY CIVILIANS WERE KILLED, HOW MANY HAMAS COMMANDERS WERE KILLED?

NUMBERS ARE NOT CLEAR, BUT AT LEAST 12,000 CIVILIANS KILLED.

SO, WE ARE GOING NOWHERE.

AND IN -- AS YOU SAY, THE HAMAS ATTACK IS CLEARLY FOR ME A GENOCIDE, BECAUSE HAMAS HAS INTENTION TO DESTROY THE ISRAELIS FROM THEIR LAND.

BUT THE ANSWER, IN PARTICULAR, THE BLOCKING OF THE WATER AND THE GASOLINE TOL 2 MILLION PEOPLE, NOT HAMAS, THAT IS A WAR CRIME, A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, AND PROBABLY A GENOCIDE.

SO, I TALK TO MY FRIENDS WHO ARE SUPER EXPERT INTERNATIONAL LAW FROM ISRAEL, AND THEY AGREE WITH ME THAT -- THEY REJECT THE GENOCIDE THERE, BUT THEY AGREE WITH ME, WAR CRIMES CLEARLY, CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, CLEARLY, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BLOCK AND AFFECT 2 MILLION PEOPLE.

PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS.

HAMAS IS NOT PALESTINE.

AND THAT IS TEACHING -- THAT'S WHY THE JUST APPROACH HAS TO IDENTIFY ALTERNATIVES.

>> LET ME TURN TO SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS AND CONCERNS FROM SOME IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, YOUR HOME COUNTRY OF ARGENTINA, AND THEIR NEW PRESIDENT-ELECT.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE ELECTIONS, THE SURPRISING TURNAROUND, AND SOME OF HIS POSITIONS, SPECIFICALLY IN THE PAST, IN HIS SKEPTICISM ABOUT THE MURDER OF 30,000 PEOPLE OR SO BETWEEN 1976 AND 1983?

>> WELL, INTERESTING, ARGENTINA DURING THE '70s, HAD A WAR, INTERNAL WAR, CIVIL WAR, BETWEEN GUR LITTLE LA GUERRILLAS AND THE ARMY.

THE POPE IS ARGENTINEAN.

I BECAME A PROSECUTOR IN MY COUNTRY 40 YEARS AGO, AND THAT'S WHY, FOR US, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE JUSTICE.

WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE JUNTA TRIBES -- NOW, RECENT ELECTION, SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING HAPPENED.

AN ECONOMY WITH NO PAST, NO PARTY, ALMOST ALONE, WON THE ELE ELECTION.

5 56%.

>> WHO IS HE?

WHO IS HE, IN YOUR VIEW?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I WAS READING ABOUT, BECAUSE I LIVE IN LOS ANGELES, SO, I'M READING ABOUT HIM NOW.

HE'S AN ECONOMIST, AND HE'S A LIBERTARIAN.

HE'S A LIBERTARIAN.

HE IS -- IN THE U.S., SO, HE BELIEVED IN MARKETS AND IN FREEDOM.

THAT'S WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.

AND TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM TRUMP.

WHEN YOU LISTEN TO HIM, HE'S TALKING ABOUT HE'S THE PRESIDENT OF ALL ARGENTINEANS, AND ALSO, HE'S TALKING ABOUT SUPPORTING THE LAW, RESPECTING THE LAW, RESPECTING THE JUDGES.

IN FACT, HE WAS SAYING, MAKING JUDICIAL INDEPENDENT.

HOW DOES HE DO IT?

THAT'S A CHALLENGE.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

I DON'T THINK HE KNOWS.

HE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT WITH NO PARTY, SO, HE HAS LESS THAN 10% OF THE VOTES IN THE SENATE AND ALMOST A LITTLE MORE THAN TEN IN THE HOUSE.

SO, HE HAS NO MAJORITY.

SO, THE REAL CHALLENGE IN ARGENTINA NOW IS HOW ARGENTINEANS PLAY TOGETHER, AND CAN THIS PRESIDENT, WHO WAS ELECTED, CHALLENGING THE OLD POLITICAL CLASS, CAN HE BE SMART ENOUGH TO UNITE ALL ARGENTINEANS, TO PUSH FOR HIS REFORMS, THAT'S A CHALLENGE.

HE'S NOT TRUMP, HE'S NOT BOLL SON THEIR OWE, HE'S DIFFERENT.

HE'S A LIBBER TAURN.

HOW CAN HE MOVE ARGENTINA?

WE DON'T KNOW.

>> BUT IT MAY, I THINK, REFLECT A SIGN OF JUST DESPERATION FROM THE STATUS QUO FOR MANY DECADES IN THE COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY IN TERMS OF ITS ECONOMIC MALAISE.

YOU HAVE INFLATION AT NEARLY 150%, NOW IT'S ESTIMATED TO GO TO ABOUT 185% BY THE END OF THE YEAR, WITHIN A MATTER OF A FEW MONTHS.

POVERTY IS AT A HIGH LEVEL RIGHT NOW.

CORRUPTION IS RAMPANT THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

SO, WHAT DOES IT SAY THAT THERE IS A SOCIETY WILLING TO ELECT SOMEBODY -- I MEAN, THIS IS SOMEBODY, I THINK THE COMPARISONS WITH TRUMP ARE MADE, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HIS ANATURE THE OFF-COLOR REMARKS HE MAKES, BECAUSE HE COMES ACROSS AS AN OUTS OUTSIDER.

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE DIRE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTRY, THAT THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO TAKE A RISK ON SOMEONE LIKE HIM NOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

THAT WAS THE REASON OF HIS ELECTION, BECAUSE HE'S PROMISING TO TRANSFORM THE ECONOMY.

ARGENTINA HAS DEMOCRACY.

THAT'S OKAY.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED 40 YEARS AGO.

NOW, PEOPLE CHOOSE THIS PERSON, WITH NO PAST, CHALLENGING THE POLITICAL CLASS, CHALLENGING HOW ARGENTINA CHALLENGES THE ECONOMY, PROPOSING FREE MARKET.

THAT'S HIS CHALLENGE.

COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP.

HE'S PROPOSING JUDGES AND LAW.

THE OPPOSITE OF TRUMP.

SO, I BELIEVE IN ARGENTINA, IT'S DIFFERENT THAN BRAZIL AND U.S., SO, IT'S A NEW -- ARGENTINA IS A VERY INTERESTING COUNTRY, VERY CRAZY COUNTRY, INTERESTING ONE.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

HE'S PROPOSING ECONOMIC REFORM.

CAN HE DO IT?

WE DON'T KNOW.

>> YEAH, BUDGET CUTS, DOLLARIZING THE CURRENCY, BUT YOU KNOW, SOME OF HIS DETRACTORS AND CRITICS ACCUSE HIM OF BEING A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU AREN'T WILLING TO GO THERE JUST YET.

>> WELL, HE WAS ELECTED BY 56% OF THE VOTE.

IN MY COUNTRY, EVERYONE HAS FAIR ELECTIONS, EVERYONE AGREE, AND HE WAS SAYING, I WILL GOVERN FOR ALL ARGENTINEANS.

I LIVE IN THE U.S., TRUMP IS NOT SAYING THAT, SO, IT'S DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP, DIFFERENT THAN BOLSONARO.

CAN HE DELIVER?

THAT'S THE QUESTION.

I FEEL IT'S A MISTAKE TO CONFUSE HIM WITH TRUMP.

HE'S DIFFERENT.

HE'S A LIBLIBERTARIAN.

HOW WILL HE MANAGE?

WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT ARGENTINEANS LEARN ABOUT WAR IS WRONG, JUSTICE IS NEEDED, AND THAT LESSON THAT THE POPE PRESENTED IS A LESSON THE WORLD HAS TO LISTEN IN ISRAEL-GAZA.

IT'S A NEW VISION.

WE HAVE TO PROTECT EVERYONE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE POPE, I MEAN, I JUST WOULD BE REMISS NOT TO SAY THAT HE HAS TRASH-TALKED THE POPE, AND OTHERS, BUT HE IS -- >> WELL, WELL -- >> YEAH -- >> YES.

>> THE POPE, BEING THE POPE, HE CALLED HIM, SO, NOW HE WAS TALKING TO THE POPE, VERY HAPPY, AND AS THE PRESIDENT, HE INVITED THE POPE.

AS THE PRESIDENT, HE'S SHOWING A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE.

MUCH MORE INTEGRATING PEOPLE AND HE INVITED THE POPE AND RESPECT THE POPE.

SO -- ARGENTINA COULD BE IN AGREEMENT.

>> YEAH, MAYBE THEY CAN RECONCILE.

IF ANYBODY CAN DO THAT, IT WOULD BE THE POPE.

LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> WELL, NOW TO THE U.S.

THE FILM INDUSTRY IS STILL FALLING SHORT ON DIVERSE REPRESENTATION, BOTH ON-SCREEN AND OFF.

ACCORDING TO UCLA'S LATEST REPORT, ONLY 16% OF LAST YEAR'S TOP HOLLYWOOD RELEASES WERE DIRECTED BY PEOPLE OF COLOR.

OUR NEXT GUEST, ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS, WAS THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN DIRECTOR TO WIN AN OSCAR, AND NOW HAS A COLLECTION OF AWARDS UNDER HIS BELT.

STILL, HIS JOURNEY HAS BEEN AN UPHILL BATTLE.

RELEASED THIS WEEK, WILLIAMS' NEW DOCUMENTARY FOCUSES ON RACISM IN THE COUNTRY.

>> STARTLED CIRCULATING -- >> AND IT WORKED.

♪ >> WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE TELL THESE MYTHS ABOUT WHO BLACK PEOPLE ARE?

AND WHAT THEY'RE ROLE IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS?

>> AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS FURTHER.

>> ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US, WELCOME.

>> YES, IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> SO, ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR.

HOW DOES IT FEEL TO HEAR IT?

>> IT STILL FEELS SPECIAL WHEN PEOPLE SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE, I WILL ALWAYS BE KNOWN AS ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR.

AND WHAT'S CRAZY ABOUT IT IS BEING THE FIRST BLACK MAN -- BLACK PERSON -- TO WIN AN ACADEMY AWARD FOR DIRECTING IS KIND OF CRAZY, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY AMAZING DIRECTORS THAT CAME BEFORE ME.

SO, THE ACADEMY IS A LITTLE BEHIND.

>> DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT FELT LIKE WHEN THEY CALLED YOUR NAME?

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT FEELING?

CAN YOU TAKE US BACK?

>> IT'S THE MOST TERRIFYING, SCARY, OUT OF BODY FEELING, SO, WHEN THEY CALLED ME NAME, I LITERALLY WAS OUT OF BODY, BUT I REMEMBER RUNNING DOWN THE AISLE AND HIGH FIVING PEOPLE AS I WAS TAKING THE STAGE, BECAUSE I WAS SEEING, YOU KNOW, FRIENDS AND FELLOW NOMINEES WHO YOU SPEND SO MUCH TIME WITH, AND I WAS HIGH FIVING UNTIL I TOOK THE STAGE, SO, YEAH, IT'S -- NOTHING -- AND THEN YOU -- THE -- I REMEMBER SEEING MERYL STREEP, I REMEMBER LOOKING DOWN IN THE FIRST ROW AND SEEING MERYL STREEP AND I WAS LIKE, OH, MY GOD, MERYL STREEP IS WATCHING ME.

>> AS YOU POINTED OUT, IT WAS AN HISTORIC MOMENT.

THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN PERSON TO WIN FOR DIRECTING, AND THEN, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T REMEMBER THIS IS FOR YOUR SHORT IN 2009, AND IT WAS ALSO, WEIRDLY, A PRECURSOR TO SUBSEQUENT DISRUPTIONS OF THE ACADEMY AWARDS CEREMONY, WHEN YOUR ACCEPTANCE SPEECH WAS INTERRUPTED BY ONE OF THE PRODUCERS OF THE FILM WHO STORMED ONTO THE STAGE AND DISRUPTED YOUR SPEECH.

>> NEVER IMAGINED IN MY WILDEST DREAMS THAT I'D END UP HERE.

THIS IS SO EXCITING.

DID IT MAR THE MOMENT FOR YOU?

>> IT DID.

IT DID.

YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME, IT WAS REALLY UPSETTING, AND, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE IT WAS, LIKE, KARENISM BEFORE IT BECAME KARENISM.

BUT IT WAS REALLY UPSETTING, BUT IN THE LONG RUN, IT WAS THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME, BECAUSE EVERYONE REMEMBERED THAT MOMENT, AND I, YOU KNOW, WAS THE BIGGEST STORY IN THE NEWS THE NEXT DAY, WHICH DIDN'T SEEM GREAT, BUT THEN LATER, EVERYONE JUST KNEW WHO I WAS AND IT REALLY PUT ME ON THE MAP, BECAUSE WHEN THE SHORT DOCUMENTARY CATEGORY IS GOING, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GO FOR THEIR NACHOS OR WHATEVER, THEY DON'T PAY ATTENTION, BUT THEY PAID ATTENTION.

>> DOCUMENTARY SHORTS ARE OFTEN THE KIND OF THE GATEWAY TO THE OTHER OPPORTUNITIES.

DID IT WORK THAT WAY FOR YOU, THOUGH?

I MEAN, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THIS KIND OF NOTION, YOU WIN AN ACADEMY AWARD, YOU GET THAT STATUE, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE DOORS OPEN.

>> NO, IT WAS -- IT WAS, YOU KNOW, A DIFFERENT TIME IN HOLLYWOOD.

NO ONE CALLED.

I GOT NOT ONE PHONE CALL, NO AGENTS CALLED, I GOT NO JOB OFFERS, I WAS SLEEPING ON MY FRIEND JEFF MARTZ, WHO IS MY BUSINESS PARTNER NOW, SLEEPING ON HIS COUCH, I HAD NOTHING, NO MONEY, NO OPPORTUNITIES.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT JUST NOTHING CHANGED?

>> BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME DON'T GET THOSE KINDS OF OPPORTUNITIES, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS DON'T LOOK LIKE ME.

SOL THEY'RE HIRING, YOU KNOW, THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR AFRICAN AMERICAN, GAY MEN TO CREATE CONTENT.

NO ONE WAS INTERESTED IN WHAT WE HAD TO SAY IN HOLLYWOOD, AND SO, THEY WEREN'T CALLING.

YOU KNOW, AND -- YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS CHANGING, YOU KNOW, AND I'M TRYING TO CHANGE THAT NOW, YOU KNOW.

WHAT'S CRAZY IS THAT FLASH FORWARD TEN YEARS LATER, I BECOME ONE OF THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LEADING THE ACADEMY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S RUN BY A BOARD OF GOVERNORS, I WAS ELECTED AS THE HEAD OF THE DOCUMENTARY BRANCH, YOU ARE ELECTED TO THAT POSITION, AND I'M LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE, OH, MY GOD, NOW I'M IN A LEADERSHIP POSITION, I WAS ONLY THE SECOND, MAYBE SECOND OR THIRD AFRICAN AMERICAN ELECTED TO THE BOARD, AFTER THE LEGENDARY SHELL BOURN ISAACS.

I WENT IN THAT ROOM, AND THERE IT IS,SPIELBERG, TOM HANKS, ALL THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE SIT ON THAT BOARD.

I WAS INTIMIDATED, NOT GOING TO LIE, BUT I COULD BREAK DOWN THE BARRIERS, BREAK DOWN THE DOORS FOR OTHERS, SO, I WAS LIKE, I'M GOING TO KICK OVER THE TABLE, I'M GOING TO CHANGE MY BRANCH.

I'M GOING TO INVITE PEOPLE LIKE ME TO HAVE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS IN THE DOCUMENTARY BRANCH, AND THE DOCUMENTARY BRANCH IS NOW THE MOST DIVERSE BRANCH IN THE WHOLE ACADEMY.

>> TO HAVE SUCH A SIGNATURE ACHIEVEMENT, AND THEN TO BASICALLY HAVE THE PHONE GO SILENT THE NEXT DAY, I MEAN, HOW DID YOU HANG IN THERE ALL THESE YEARS?

>> I THINK IT'S BECAUSE I HAVE A PASSION FOR STORYTELLING AND I HAD THINGS I WANTED TO SAY, WHETHER ANYONE WANTED TO BUY IT OR HEAR IT, AND, YOU KNOW, -- AND GOING ON AFTER THAT, I STRUGGLED AND MADE MY FIRST FEATURE FILM.

AND I DID IT THROUGH GRANTS AND THROUGH ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE FORD FOUNDATION, WHO WOULD GIVE GRANTS TO FILMMAKERS LIKE ME, AND PUBLIC TELEVISION.

YOU KNOW, WHO GAVE ME THE MONEY TO GO MAKE "GOD LOVES UGANDA," ABOUT THE ANTI-HOME SEXUALITY BILL IN EUGANDA, WHICH TEN YEAR LATER, HAS JUST PASSED.

I WENT TO UGANDA, BECAUSE I WANTED TO EXPLORE THIS REALLY DARK PLACE WHERE AMERICAN E VAN GEL CALLS WERE GOING TO UGANDA AND DOING THINGS THEY COULDN'T GET PASSED IN AMERICA IN UGANDA, A COUNTRY WHERE THEY WERE TAKING MONEY AND RESOURCES SO THEY HAD POWER.

SO WHEN I -- I MADE THAT FILM AND IT TOOK ME YEARS AND I STRUGGLED THROUGH GRANTS AND I WAS DETERMINED, BECAUSE I WAS DETERMINED TO TELL THAT STORY, TO TELL THE STORIES THAT ARE PERSONAL TO ME.

>> SO, FAST FORWARD TO NOW, YOU ARE HAVING THIS INCREDIBLE MOMENT.

YOU HAVE NOT ONE, NOT TWO, BUT THREE DIFFERENT PROJECTS, ALL PREMIERING THIS FALL, AND WHAT'S REMARKABLE, THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT.

THERE'S CASSANDRA, YOUR FIRST NARRATIVE FEATURE.

IT'S A FICTIONALIZED ACCOUNT OF THE LIFE OF A REAL PERSON WHO IS AN OPENLY GAY PROFESSIONAL -- MEXICAN PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER.

IT'S BILINGUAL.

YOU'VE GOT YOUR STAMPED, WHICH IS BASED ON THE BEST SELLER OF THE SAME NAME, AND YOU HAVE A FILM ABOUT THE SUPER MODELS, THE FOUR, THE FAMOUS FOUR.

LOOKING AT THEM SORT OF SUPER OFFICIALLY, I'M THINKING, THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT, BUT ARE THEY?

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT UNITES THEM?

>> THEY'RE ALL ME.

YOU KNOW, I TELL STORIES THAT ARE REALLY PERSONAL TO ME.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE STORY OF CASSANDRA, OF A REALLY OPENLY GAY, PROUD GAY MAN WHO GOES INTO THE MACHO WORLD OF MEXICAN WRESTLING AND ACHIEVES GREAT SUCCESS AND FAME ON HIS OWN TERMS, AS HIMSELF, AS WHO HE IS, IS REALLY A STORY, A JOURNEY OF SELF-ACCEPTANCE, A STORY THAT I TOOK AS A GAY MAN.

I WANTED TO TELL THAT STORY, IT WAS MY STORY, THE STORY OF A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM THE LGBTQ+ COMMUNITY.

SO, THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THE SUPER MODELS WAS, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH THE SUPER MODELS.

I -- I WAS COMING OF AGE, I WAS IN NEW YORK, YOU KNOW, GOING OUT TO NIGHTCLUBS AND I KNEW THESE WOMEN AND THESE WOMEN, THAT WAS A DEFINING TIME IN CULTURE WHEN MUSIC AND ART AND FASHION IS ALL COMING TOGETHER AND HOLLYWOOD ALL COMING TOGETHER.

THEY WERE THE ORIGINAL INFLUENCERS, YOU KNOW?

AND SO, THAT WAS REALLY PART OF MY, YOU KNOW, MY STORY, AS WELL.

>> WE ONLY HAVE ONE BLOCK THAT SEASON, IT WAS THAT TIME.

BLACK GIRLS CAN ONLY DO SHOWS IN THE SUMMER.

BLACK GIRLS CAN ONLY WEAR THE BRIGHT COLORED CLOTHES.

>> I SAID TO THEM, IF YOU DON'T BOOK HER, YOU DON'T GET ME.

>> AND WITH STAMPED, IT'S REALLY ABOUT ME STRUGGLING TO REALLY UNDERSTAND MY PLACE IN AMERICA AS A BLACK MAN, YOU KNOW, WHY IS EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY, FROM THE RACIAL RECKONING THAT WE'VE ALL EXPERIENCED THAT NOW SEEMS TO BE, LIKE, FORGOTTEN, TO THE DAILY DESTRUCTION OF BLACK BODIES, ALL OF THAT, I'M TRYING -- I'M GRAPPLING WITH THAT, LIKE, WHEN I STEP OUT MY DOOR, I'M IN DANGER, I SHOULD BE SHOT DOWN, I COULD BE, YOU KNOW, KILLED AT ANY MOMENT BY THE POLICE OR ANYONE ELSE WHO DEEMS ME NOT -- NOT WORTHY OR EQUAL TO THEM.

AND I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND THE BOOK DID THAT FOR ME, AND I WAS LIKE, I'M GOING TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT THIS.

SO, IT'S ALL PERSONAL.

>> IT'S SO INTERESTING, I WONDER, IN A WAY, THAT THIS IS KIND OF THE UNIVERSE MAKING UP FOR THE FACT THAT YOUR PHONE DIDN'T RING ALL THOSE YEARS AGO, AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, I'M THINKING, IT DOESN'T STOP RINGING, YOU KNOW?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW -- IT'S DEFINITELY STILL RINGING.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE GREAT THING ABOUT IT IS THAT I GOT TO CREATE A COMPANY, A PRODUCTION COMPANY, AND I GOT TO INVITE CREATORS, BLACK CREATORS, BIPOC CREATORS, WHO STILL DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE, INTO REALLY VOUCH FOR THEM, WITH BUYERS, WITH THE BIG STREAMERS, AND GET THEM TO CREATE THEIR -- THEIR WORK.

GET THEM, YOU KNOW, GET THEM A PLATFORM FOR THEIR WORK, AND IT HAS PAID OFF.

IT'S SO REWARDING TO DO, TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, AND TO BE ABLE TO BE IN A POSITION TO DO THAT, SO, NOT ONLY IS IT PAYING OFF FOR ME, IT'S PAYING OFF FOR ALL THE PEOPLE, ALL THE LITTLE ROGERS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT I NOW HAVE.

>> YOU CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE THAT THESE -- MOMENT IN OUR HISTORY WHERE SOME OF THE GROUPS THAT YOU FOCUS ON, THERE'S BEEN SORT OF TREMENDOUS RESISTANCE, BACKLASH, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT, AGAINST WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

I MEAN, THERE'S A CONCERTED EFFORT IN SOME JURISDICTIONS TO, FOR EXAMPLE, DISALLOW THIS BOOK FROM BEING TAUGHT, OR EVEN APPEARING ON LIBRARY SHELVES.

YOU CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE THAT IN SOME JURISDICTIONS THAT THERE IS SORT OF A CONCERTED AND ORGANIZED ATTEMPT TO DISAPPEAR THE STORIES OF QUEER PEOPLE, TRANS PEOPLE FROM SORT OF PUBLIC LIFE, ESPECIALLY FROM EXPOSURE TO KIDS.

OBVIOUSLY, ALL THESE PROJECTS TOOK YOU YEARS TO DEVELOP AND TO BRING INTO PRODUCTION, BUT IT IS SORT OF INTERESTING THAT THEY'RE ALL ARRIVING NOW IN THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU DRAW ANYTHING FROM THAT.

>> I THINK WE'RE IN A VERY CRITICAL PLACE IN AMERICA, YOU KNOW, IT'S SO DIVIDED, AND -- YOU KNOW, WHEN SOMEONE WHO IS REALLY A HISTORIAN, WHO IS REALLY AN ACADEMIC, A BRILLIANT ACADEMIC, HAS TO WEAR A BULLETPROOF VEST TO GO OUT IN PUBLIC, BECAUSE HIS LIFE IS IN DANGER, HIS BOOKS ARE BANNED, WHERE -- THAT SAYS SO MUCH ABOUT THIS COUNTRY AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK, FOR ME, UNDERSTANDING THAT THE FACT THAT THIS COUNTRY HASN'T REALLY GRAPPLED WITH THE LEGACY OF SLAVERY, IT'S WHY I ALSO DID THE 1619 PROJECT WITH NICOLE HANNAH JONES, SERIES.

THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN EXPLORING THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, A PLATFORM LIKE NETFLIX, WHICH IS SO WIDELY WATCH AND VIEWED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, I'M TRYING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE, REALLY, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE ORIGINS OF THIS, WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?

THEY CAN UNDERSTAND IT SO WE CAN BEGIN TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS AROUND THIS, AND THAT'S RE REALLY -- EVEN WITH CASSANDRO, YOU KNOW, WHERE BEING, YOU KNOW, DRAG, YOU ARE -- IT'S BEING OUTLAWED TO BE DRAG, I WANTED TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT SOMEONE WHO DRESSES IN DRAG IN A MACHO W WOWORLD AND DOES IT ON HIS OWN TERMS AND IS PROUD AND OUT ABOUT IT.

AND I THINK THAT AMERICA NEEDS TO SEE THESE KINDS OF FILMS.

REALLY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY I'M -- THAT'S MY MOTIVATION, FOR MAKING ALL OF THEM.

>> CAN I JUST GO TO CASSANDRO FOR A SECOND.

HOW ON EARTH -- HOW DID YOU GET CONNECTED TO THIS PROJECT?

BECAUSE ONE MIGHT THINK, THIS IS OUTSIDE YOUR EXPERIENCE, I MEAN, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, I DON'T THINK YOU'RE BILINGUAL, I DON'T THINK YOU'RE AMERICA MEXICAN AM.

SO, HOW DID YOU GET CONNECTED TO THIS PROJECT?

>> WELL, IT WAS A "NEW YORKER" ARTICLE AND "THE NEW YORKER" DID A SERIES ON AMAZON CALLED "THE NEW YORKER PRESENTS," WHICH TURNS THE MAGAZINE INTO ART, SO, I DID A SHORT 15-MINUTE DOCUMENTARY ABOUT CASSANDRO FOR "THE NEW YORKER" SERIES AND I -- WHEN I MET CASSANDRO, WHO LIVES IN EL PASO, JUAREZ, GOES BACK AND FORTH, HIS FAMILY IS ON THE BORDER, I WAS COMPLETELY BLOWN AWAY BY HIS STORY OF RESILIENCE, HIS STORY OF, LIKE, HIS JOURNEY OF SELF-ACCEPTANCE.

YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT HE'S AN E FEMME GNAT, OUT, GAY MAN WRESTLING IN DRAG.

AND THE FIRST TIME I SAW HIM WRESTLE IN JUAREZ IN A STADIUM, HE WALKS INTO THE STADIUM WITH HIS THEME SONG "I WILL SURVIVE" PLAYING AND EVERYONE IS SINGING "I WILL SURVIVE" AND THESE MACHO MEN ARE HUGGING HIM AND PEOPLE ARE HANDING HIM THEIR BABIES AND KISSING HIM.

I STARTED TO CRY.

I WAS LIKE, THIS IS ABOUT BREAKING DOWN THOSE BARRIERS.

THIS SHOWS, TO ME, IT SHOWS THAT WE'RE NOT SO DIVIDED, THAT IF PEOPLE CAN LOVE HIM AND HE CAN BECOME A BIG SUPERSTAR IN THIS WORLD, AND HE CAN BE ACCEPTED AND LOVED, I WAS LIKE, THIS IS A REALLY INSPIRATIONAL STORY, AND I WANT TO TELL INSPIRATIONAL STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE IN THE GAY COMMUNITY, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY DEPRESSING AND SAD STORIES.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, TO THAT END, NOT TO DETRACT FROM ANYTHING YOU JUST SAID, BUT THERE ARE -- THAT PATH TO ACCEPTANCE WAS NOT A SMOOTH, STRAIGHT LINE, YOU KNOW, AS IT WERE.

THERE ARE SOME SCENES THERE, TO HEAR HIM BEING YELLED AT AND HAVING PEOPLE YELLING SLURS, ANTI-GAY SLURS AT HIM.

I JUST FOUND IT -- I FOUND IT PAINFUL.

DO YOU MIND IF I ASK, LIKE, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO FILM THOSE SCENES?

>> WELL, THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT CASSANDRO IS THAT HE TOOK THOSE SLURS AND ALMOST USED IT AS HIS SUPER POWER.

I SEE IT AS A SUPER POWER/HERO NARRATIVE, WHERE HE TOOK THOSE SLURS AND HE USED -- HE USED IT AND THEY MADE HIM STRONGER IN THE RING.

THEY MADE HIM -- HE'S LIKE, I'M NOT GOING TO LET IT DEFEAT ME, I'M GOING TO LET IT, YOU KNOW, ENERGIZE ME AND HE WAS GOOD AS A WRESTLER.

HIS MOVES, EVERYTHING HE DID WAS SO GOOD.

AND HE GOT STRONGER.

AND THAT CONFIDENCE THAT HE USED TO BUILD HIS CONFIDENCE IN THE RING AND THE AUDIENCE, THAT CONFIDENCE INFECTS THE AUDIENCE AND HE WINS OVER THE AUDIENCE.

I JUST FOUND THAT FASCINATING.

I HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

AND SO -- SO MANY OF US IN THE GAY COMMUNITY, WHEN SOMEONE USES A SLUR AGAINST US, WE'RE DEFEATED, WE SHRINK DOWN, WE WANT TO RUN AWAY AND HIDE.

HE RAN RIGHT INTO THE FIRE, SO TO SPEAK, AND SAY, I AM WHO I AM, LITERALLY, AND I'M PROUD AND I'M GOING TO -- AIME GOING TO DO THIS AND YOU'RE GOING TO LOVE ME, AND THEY FELL IN LOVE WITH HIM.

>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, WHAT'S NEXT?

WHAT ELSE YOU GOT?

>> A LOT IS COMING.

YOU KNOW, NOW PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CALLING ME AND I'M -- YOU KNOW, FOR ME, WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS BUILDING MY COMPANY AND ALLOWING THESE YOUNG BIPOC FILMMAKERS TO TELL THEIR STORIES, GIVING THEM, YOU KNOW, LICENSE TO TELL THEIR STORIES, GIVING THEM THE OPPORTUNITIES TO TELL THEIR STORIES.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IS, LIKE, OPENING THE DOOR, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S STILL A STRUGGLE.

THE STRUGGLE IS NOT OVER.

AND I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO CREATE WORK THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT, THAT I THINK INFORMS AND INSPIRES PEOPLE ALL ACROSS THE WORLD, AND I LOVE WHAT I DO, SO I'M GOING TO KEEP DOING IT.

>> ROGER ROSS WILLIAMS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT WAS GREAT TO SPEAK TO YOU.

>>> WELL, AS WE COME TO THE AMERICAN HOLIDAY OF THANKSGIVING, LET'S TAKE A MOMENT TO REFLECT ON THE GOOD THINGS LIFE HAS TO OFFER.

WHICH, FOR US, AT LEAST, INCLUDING THE MUSIC OF SINGE SINGER/SONGWRITER YUSUF/CAT STEVENS.

HE'S OUT PLAYING THE CLASSICS.

PEACE TRAIN, MORNING HAS BROKEN, FATHER AND SON, WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE SO WELL.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH HIM EARLIER THIS YEAR.

>> YUSUF/CAT STEVENS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO YOU SINCE I WAS A TEENAGER.

NOW, "KING OF LATEST ALBUM.

THIS IS A CULMINATION, A VERY CLEARLY DEFINED OUTCOME OF WHERE I'VE BEEN AND WHERE I AM.

SO, FIRST, WHERE ARE YOU?

>> IN THIS TIME AND PLACE RIGHT NOW, WHERE I'M 75, COMING UP, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I'VE KIND OF LIVED A LOT, AND I'VE ACHIEVED MANY OF MY DREAMS, AND THERE WERE SOME NIGHTMARES ALONG THE WAY, YOU KNOW, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, I'VE LIVED.

I'VE DONE -- I'VE HAD MORE LIVES THAN QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF POP STARS, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN -- I CAME OUT OF THE BUSINESS, AS WELL, YOU KNOW, AND THAT WAS LIKE -- I'VE GOT A LIFE.

AND I CAME BACK AGAIN.

SO, I'VE BEEN THERE, I'VE DONE THAT.

THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I AM.

>> SO TELL ME THE NIGHTMARES.

>> THE NIGHTMARE, FOR ME, BEGAN REALLY -- BECAUSE I WAS AN IMMI IMMIGRANT, YOU KNOW, MY FATHER WAS FROM CYPRUS, MOTHER FROM SWEDEN, AND, LIKE, WHERE DID I FIT?

AND, YOU KNOW, AT SCHOOL, THEY CAN BE A LITTLE BIT CRUEL.

>> DEFINITELY.

>> AND SO, I HAD TO FIND MY PLACE, AND I THINK ART WAS THE THING WHICH KIND OF, I THINK, ELEVATED ME TO A STATUS WHERE I COULD BE ACCEPTED.

>> SO THIS NEW ALBUM, IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS, YOU KNOW, TAKING US BACK TO THAT MOMENT OF CHILDHOOD, THE HAPPY TIMES.

WAS THAT YOUR INTENTION?

BECAUSE IT'S AN ALBUM THAT FALLS AT A TIME WHERE WE ARE -- YOU JUST HAVE TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF SUCH DISCORD AND UPHEAVAL AND ALL OF THAT.

>> TRUE.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHY WE DO NEED THESE OPPORTUNITIES -- THESE MOMENTS TO REFLECT ON SOME OF THE GOOD THINGS.

AND MUSIC MAKES US FEEL GOOD.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOMETIMES WHEN, YES, YOU'RE DEPRESSED, AND YES, THE SONG MAKES YOU FEEL MELANCHOLY, BUT IT HELPS YOU.

IT GIVES YOU A REFERENCE POINT.

MAYBE GOING BACK TO SOME OTHER TIME WHEN YOU WERE KIND OF MORE SAFE, IN A BETTER SPACE.

AND SO, MUSIC CAN DEFINITELY HELP, BUT OF COURSE, IT CAN'T DO THE FULL JOB.

IT CAN ONLY PROMISE, IT CAN'T FULFILL THE PROMISE.

>> I DO WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM ONE OF THE SONGS, THE SONG THAT WE'RE ALLOWED TO USE, AND THIS IS A SONG "TAKE THE WORLD APART."

♪ I'LL TAKE THE WORLD APART ♪ TO FIND A PLACE FOR A PEACEFUL HEART ♪ ♪ I KNOW ♪ I'VE GOT TO FIND IT ALL ALTHOUGH ♪ ♪ BREAK DOWN THE WALLS ♪ AND SHATTER I WILL ♪ I'LL TAKE THE WORLD APART ♪ DO DO DO DO DO >> SO, I MEAN, JUST THAT LAST IMAGE, ALMOST LITTLE PRINCE-ESQUE, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> WHY IS IT THE LAST, AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, TAKE THE WORLD APART?

WHAT DOES THIS SONG MEAN TO YOU?

>> WELL, IT'S THE LAST TRACK BECAUSE IT'S AN UPTURN, AND MAYBE THE TRACK BEFORE IT IS -- IS A LITTLE BIT DEEP, BUT I WANTED PEOPLE TO COME AWAY AFTER THE ALBUM WITH AN UP, YOU KNOW, FEELING GOOD.

AND OPTIMISTIC.

AND THAT'S WHY -- AND FOR ME, PEACE, YOU KNOW, IS THE FIRST STOP AND IT'S THE LAST STOP, YOU KNOW?

WHATEVER HAPPENS IN BETWEEN, THAT'S LIFE.

BUT PEACE IS THE OBJECTIVE, SO, WE EMPHASIZE THAT BY BEING THE LAST TRACK.

>> WELL, I MEAN, YOUR FAMOUS EWE F EUPHORIC PEACE TRAIN -- ♪ EVERYBODY ABOARD THE PEACE TRAIN ♪ ♪ COME ON ♪ COME ON ♪ COME ON ♪ COME ON PEACE TRAIN ♪ YES IT'S THE PEACE TRAIN >> ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED IN ALL THE YEARS THAT HAVE TRANSPIRED SINCE, WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE A PEACE TRAIN OR PEACE?

>> WELL, PEACE HAS MANY ASPECTS, I MEAN, I DO NOT THINK THAT IT'S JUST -- THERE'S A PHYSICAL ASPECT, FOR INSTANCE, IF SOMEBODY'S STARVING, HOW CAN YOU, YOU KNOW, EXPECT THEM TO FIND PEACE?

THEY WANT TO FEED THEIR CHILDREN, THEY WANT TO FEED THEMSELVES.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE STARTED PEACE TRAIN, WHICH TURNED INTO A KIND OF CHARITY, CONCENTRATING ON FEEDING PEOPLE.

BUT THERE'S MORE PEACE -- IT'S NOT ALSO JUST THE PHYSICAL, YOU KNOW, PEACE, I MEAN, THERE'S THE SAYING, JESUS, I THINK, WE SHOULD ALL KNOW IT, YOU KNOW, THAT MAN DOES NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE.

YOU KNOW, SO, WE'RE -- WE'RE SPIRITS.

AND FOR THAT REASON, ALSO, OUR SPIRITS NEED -- NEED SOME KIND OF PEACE, NEED TO FIND OUT -- WE NEED TO FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH WHO WE ARE, AND COMFORTABLE WITH OUR NEIGHBORS.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH THAT CAN CREATE PEACE, BUT SEEMS TO BE WORKING AGAINST IT.

>> INDEED.

I THINK ONE OF YOUR EITHER COLLEAGUES OR CERTAINLY PEOPLE YOU ADMIRED WAS GEORGE HARRISON OF THE BEATLES.

HE WAS INCREDIBLY SPIRITUAL.

I THINK YOU DID THE FINAL PRODUCTION, AT HIS HOME/STUDIO HERE IN ENGLAND?

>> CORRECT.

WE WERE ALLOWED TO USE THE DARK HORSE STUDIO, WHERE HIS, YOU KNOW, HIS HOUSE, HIS MANSION IS, AND HIS SON WAS THE FACILITATOR, AND IT WAS -- IT WAS FANTASTIC, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, THE BEATLES PERSONIFIED, YOU KNOW, THE WAY FORWARD, THE WAY IN WHICH WE COULD DEFINE A NEW WORLD, EVEN IF IT WAS ONLY THROUGH MUSIC, LYRICS, FOR THAT TIME, BUT WE BELIEVED IN IT, BUT THERE WAS MORE TO GEORGE THAN JUST, YOU KNOW, THE SONGS AND, YOU KNOW -- HE WAS ACTUALLY LOOKING.

AND HE HELPED US TO TURN EAST.

SO THEREFORE, HE WAS REALLY AN INSPIRED PERSON, FOR ME, AND ESPECIALLY AT A TIME WHEN I WAS SICK, AND I WAS IN BED WITH TUBERCULOSIS.

I HAD MY FIRST EXPOSURE TO FAME AND EVERYTHING THAT CAME ALONG WITH IT, AGAIN, PART OF THE NIGHTMARES, WHICH I WAS REFERRING TO BEFORE, AND THEN I NEEDED SOMETHING WHEN I'M LYING ON THE BED, YOU KNOW, WHERE AM I GOING TO END UP WHEN ALL OF THIS DISAPPEARS, YOU KNOW, WHEN I DROP OFF THE PLANET?

AND THAT'S WHERE GEORGE WAS ALREADY, YOU KNOW, EXPERIMENTING OR, YOU KNOW, SEEKING WAYS TO FIND THE LIGHT, ALL THAT.

BUT THAT WAS INSPIRING FOR ME.

>> AND ACTUALLY, YOU'VE SAID GEORGE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO PUT A CHARITY CONCERT ON FOR THE POOR, AT THE TIME, MILLIONS OF BANGLADESHIS WERE FLEEING FROM CONFLICT.

IT WAS A BRAVE THING TO DO, AND AGAINST ALL ESTABLISHMENT RULES.

I'M HAPPY TO SING ONE OF HIS SONGS, ESPECIALLY AS IT REPRESENTS THE RETURN OF LIGHT AND HOPE TO A SERIES DARK AND BROKEN WORLD.

WE'LL GET TO THE SONG YOU RECORDED IN HONOR OF HIS 80th BIRTHDAY, BUT THIS IS SO RELEVANT NOW WITH THIS BROUHAHA ABOUT REFUGEES AND THE OTHER AND ASYLUM AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO NEED -- WHO NEED, YOU KNOW, US TO BE KIND.

>> YEAH.

IT'S SO OBVIOUS.

I MEAN, AND THEN, WHEN THEY START TO MOVE, WHICH IS THE NATURE OF HUMAN BEINGS, WHEN THEY'RE NOT HAPPY WHERE THEY ARE NOW, THEY'RE GOING TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND THEN YOU CLOSE THE DOOR.

EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE BEEN ADVERTISING AS BEING THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO BE.

NOT REALLY FAIR, IS IT?

I FELT -- THAT'S THE ONE SONG I REALLY THINK PERSONIFIES, YOU KNOW, THE OPTIMISM THAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.

♪ IT'S BEEN A LONG COLD LONELY WINTER ♪ ♪ LITTLE DARLING ♪ IT FEELS LIKE YEARS SINCE IT'S BEEN HERE ♪ ♪ HERE COMES THE SUN ♪ HERE COMES THE SUN ♪ AND I SAY ♪ IT'S ALL RIGHT >> WHAT A POIGNANT MESSAGE OF HOPE AND OPTIMISM.

>>> AND FINALLY, LET'S TAKE A MOMENT NOW TO LOOK BACK ON A DAY THAT SHOCKED THE WORLD.

60 YEARS AGO, ON NOVEMBER 22nd, 1963, PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY WAS ASSASSINATED IN DALLAS.

HIS TRAGIC DEATH FUELED COUNTLESS CONSPIRACY THEORIES, BUT HE IS REMEMBERED AMONGST OTHER THINGS AS THE PRESIDENT WHO NAVIGATED COLD WAR TENSIONS AND COMMITTED THE UNITED STATES TO PUTTING A MAN ON THE MOON.

TAKE A LISTEN TO HIS WORDS ON PEACE, DELIVERED AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN JUNE OF THAT YEAR.

>> SO LET US PERSEVERE.

PEACE NEED NOT BE IMPARACTICAL.

AND WAR NEED NOT BE INEVITABLE.

BY DEFINING OUR GOAL MORE CLEARLY, BY MAKING IT SEEM MORE MANAGEABLE AND LESS REMOTE, WE CAN HELP ALL PEOPLE TO SEE IT, TO DRAW HOPE FROM IT, AND TO MOVE TOWARDS IT.

>> WORDS STILL RELEVANT, 60 YEARS LATER.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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