>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

RELEASED FROM CAPTIVITY.

I SPEAK TO THE NEPHEW OF AN ISRAELI HOSTAGE, AND TO AN ISRAELI PSYCHOLOGIST ON HOW ISRAELIS ARE GRAPPLING WITH THE TRAUMA.

>>> THEN, THE LIVED REALITY OF PALESTINIANS.

JOURNALIST NATHAN THRALL BRINGS US THE STORY OF A 2012 TRAGEDY FROM HIS NEW BOOK, "A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ABED SALAMA."

>>> PLUS, ROXANE GAY TALKS ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF INTERNET DISCOURSE AND HER LIFE AS A FAMOUS OPINION WRITER.

>>> AND FINALLY, THE BOOK REPRICE GOES TO PAUL LYNCH.

HE JOINS ME TO TALK ABOUT HIS WINNING NOVEL, "PROPHET SONG."

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA, IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

A TRUCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IN GAZA IS EXTENDED BY TWO DAYS.

QATAR ANNOUNCED THAT TODAY.

THE PAUSE IN FIGHTING GIVES SOME RELIEF TO A BESIEGED GAZA AND MORE TIME TO WORK OUT DEALS TO SWAP ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND PALESTINIAN PRISONERS.

OVER THE WEEKEND, 4-YEAR-OLD AMERICAN ISRAELI ABIGAIL EDAN WAS RELEASED, BUT NOT INTO THE ARMS OF HER PARENTS.

THEY WERE KILLED IN FRONT OF HER ON OCTOBER 7th, WHEN HAMAS STORMED THEIR KIBBUTZ.

ABIGAIL'S AUNT, UNCLE, AND GRANDPARENTS ARE NOW TAKING CARE OF HER AND HER SIBLINGS.

ALSO RELEASED WAS 9-YEAR-OLD EMILY HAND, AN EXTREMELY EMOTIONAL MOMENT FOR HER SISTER AND FATHER THAT INITIALLY BELIEVED SHE WAS DEAD.

HERE'S EMILY'S FATHER, THOMAS, BEFORE SHE WAS DISCHARGED FROM THE HOSPITAL.

>> YESTERDAY, WE FINALLY GOT EMILY BACK FROM THE HANDS OF THE GAZAN TERRORISTS.

SHE'S LOST A LOT OF WEIGHT.

FROM HER FACE AND BODY.

BUT GENERALLY, DOING BETTER THAN WE EXPECTED.

WE'RE IN THE HOSPITAL, TAKING CARE OF EMILY, AND WE'D LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE THAT HAS HELPED AND SUPPORTED US THROUGHOUT THIS WHOLE 50 DAYS, IT'S BEEN GREAT.

WE CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT YOU.

>> THE IMAGE OF THOMAS HUGGING HIS DAUGHTER IS JUST SO HEARTWARMING, AFTER EVERYTHING THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH.

WELL, EYAL NOURI'S AUNT, ADINA MOSHE, WAS RELEASED ON FRIDAY.

YOU MAY RECALL THIS HORRIFYING PICTURE OF ADINA BEING CAPTURED ON OCTOBER 7th.

HER HUSBAND WAS MURDERED, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS ON HER KIBBUTZ.

EYAL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SOME MUCH-NEEDED RELIEF, I WOULD IMAGINE, FOR YOUR FAMILY, THE RELEASE OF YOUR AUNT.

TELL US HOW SHE'S DOING AT THIS MOMENT.

>> SHE'S GETTING HER STRENGTH BACK.

SHE'S A BIT WEAK AFTER SPENDING MORE THAN SEVEN WEEKS IN THE TUNNELS OF THE HAMAS, BEING UNDER -- FIVE FLOOR UNDER WITH LIGHT ONLY FOR TWO HOURS A DAY, SO, IT'S REALLY EMOTIONAL FOR HER TO BE BACK HOME, AMONG PEOPLE THAT LOVE HER.

>> HER STRENGTH IS JUST REMARKABLE.

A WOMAN OVER 70 YEARS OLD, TO -- ACCORDING TO REPORTS, AND WHAT YOUR AUNT SAID, WHEN SHE FOUND OUT THAT SHE WAS BEING RELEASED AND OTHERS WHO WERE IN WORSE CONDITION THAN SHE WAS, AND OLDER, SHE SAID, THERE'S BEEN A MISTAKE, YOU SHOULD RELEASE THEM FIRST BEFORE ME.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THOSE REALLY REMARKABLE SELFLESS WORDS COMING FROM HER?

>> YEAH, SHE TOLD THIS TO THE MINISTER OF HEALTH OF ISRAEL, AND WHEN I HEARD THAT, I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, THIS IS EXACTLY MY AUNT.

THIS IS THE SAME SPIRIT.

SHE SHOWED ALSO WHEN SHE WENT DOWN FROM THE HAMAS VEHICLE AND THE TERRORIST GAVE HER A HAND FOR SUPPORTING HER, SHE SLAPPED HIS HAND, I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP, I CAN WALK BY MYSELF, AND THIS IS THE POWER THAT SHE SHOWED, WHERE EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS SO WEAK, STILL, SHE DIDN'T NEED THEIR HELP.

>> YEAH, TELL US ABOUT THAT.

WE SAW THAT VIDEO, WE DON'T REALLY LIKE REPLAYING IT, BECAUSE IT FALLS INTO HAMAS PROPAGANDA, THEY ALL OF A SUDDEN WANT TO BE SEEN AS HUMANITARIANS BEING KIND TO THE HOSTAGES WHO THEY, THEMSELVES TOOK FROM THEIR HOMES.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT SAY FROM YOUR AUNT, THAT SHE WOULD SLAP A HAND AWAY, AND WOULD RATHER WALK, AS WEAK AS SHE WAS, THAN HAVE THE HELP OF SOMEBODY FROM HAMAS?

>> I THINK IT MOSTLY SHOWED THAT SHE WANTS TO TAKE HER OWN DESTINY IN HER OWN HANDS.

SHE HAD BEEN IN CAPTIVITY, WHEN SOMEONE TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO ALL THE TIME, AND HUMILIATE YOU AND DO THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO DO, AND AVOID YOU FROM TAKING SHOWER AND ALL KINDS OF STUFF, THIS IS NOT THE WAY SHE WANTS TO LIVE HER LIFE.

SO, SHE WANTED TO START DOING WHATEVER SHE WANTS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS AMAZING ABOUT MY AUNT, SHE DECIDED THAT SHE WANTS TO BE AGAIN.

SHE WANTS TO RETURN.

SHE'S FORBIDDEN US TO SHOW ANY PICTURES AFTER HER RELEASE, SHE WANTS TO GO BACK TO THE SAME WOMAN SHE WAS BEFORE.

EVEN THOUGH THE WORLD HAS CHANGED FOR HER, COMPLETELY UPSIDE DOWN.

SHE HAS NO HUSBAND TO HUG HER, AND, BY THE WAY, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT GAVE HER STRENGTH IN CAPTIVITY, BECAUSE SHE SAID, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE.

YOU KILLED MY HUSBAND, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO TO ME.

THAT COURAGE, TO SUPPORT ALL THE OTHERS THAT WERE WITH HER IN THE SAME ROOM, FIVE FLOOR UNDER IN THE TUNNEL, SO, SHE WAS THE ONE SUPPORTING THE CHILDREN THERE.

AND THE OTHERS.

THIS IS MY AUNT.

>> YOU MENTIONED YOUR UNCLE WHO SADLY WAS KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th.

THEIRS WAS A TRUE LOVE STORY, I READ, THAT BEGAN AT THE KIBBUTZ, THEY MET AT A SWIMMING POOL THERE AND WERE MARRIED AND INSEPARABLE, BEST FRIENDS FOR DECADES.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR UNCLE.

>> MY UNCLE, HE'S THE BROTHER OF MY MOTHER.

HE MET HER WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG, AT THE AGE OF 20 SOMETHING, 22.

AND THEY ACTUALLY WENT TO THE DESERT WHEN THERE WAS NOTHING THERE AND THEY WERE FARMERS AND SHE WORKED IN THE KIBBUTZ AS A TEACHER, AND TEACH A LOT OF GENERATION OF CHILDREN, AND HE RAISED POTATOES AND CARROTS AND PEANUTS, HE WAS CALLED MR.

POTATO, PROFESSOR OF POTATOES, AND THE BRAND NAME, UNCLE MOSHE, THAT EVERYONE KNOWS IN ISRAEL AND IN EUROPE, ACTUALLY, IT WAS HIS BRAND, AND HE WAS KNOWN FOR THAT.

JUST BEFORE THE MASSACRE OF OCTOBER 7th, HE WAS IN MADRID, AN EXHIBITION FOR FRUIT AND VEGETABLE, WHERE HE SHOWED HIS UNCLE MOSHE BRAND, AND HE RUSHED BACK HOME TO BE WITH HIS FAMILY ON OCTOBER 6th.

AND ONE OF THE MIRACLES WE HAD THAT HIS GRANDDAUGHTER ASKED TO STAY WITH HIM, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY, AND ALSO HER MOTHER DOESN'T KNOW WHY, SHE TOLD HER, YOU'RE NOT STAYING WITH GRANDPA TODAY, I'M TIRED.

AND LUCKILY, SHE AND MY COUSIN, HER SON, AND FIVE CHILDREN SURVIVED, AND SHE -- IF SHE WOULD STAY WITH HIM, SHE WOULD PROBABLY GET KILLED.

SO, WE SEE A LOT OF MIRACLES, GIVEN THOUGH IT WAS VERY DARK SATURDAY, THAT STOPPED THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

>> OUR CONDOLENCES FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR UNCLE.

HE SOUNDS LIKE A WONDERFUL MAN, WHAT HE DID IN MAINTAINING HIS COMMUNITY.

IF YOU COULD TELL ME A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU HEARD, FROM YOUR AUNT OR OTHER REPORTS, ABOUT HOW THESE HOSTAGES WERE TREATED, BECAUSE I HAVE READ THAT, WHILE SOME MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PHYSICALLY ABUSED, AT LEAST THE REPORTS THAT WE'VE READ, THERE WAS LITTLE FOOD, LITTLE ACCESS TO MEDICINE, NO NEWS OF LOVED ONES.

JUST SOUNDS LIKE COMPLETE HELL IN DARKNESS UNDERNEATH TUNNELS FOR SO MANY WEEKS.

SITUATION MAY BE DIFFERENT FOR SOME OF THE OTHER HOSTAGES, BUT WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOUR AUNT ENDURED?

>> THERE WERE DIFFERENT CONDITIONS FOR DIFFERENT HOSTAGES, BECAUSE THEY WERE IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

MY AUNT WAS TAKEN FROM THE WINDOW OF HER SAFE ROOM AFTER SHE TRIED TO STOP THE BLEEDING OF MY UNCLE.

SHE WAS PUT OUT, BARE FEET, ON A MOTORCYCLE TO GAZA.

AND THEN THEY TOOK HER INSIDE THE TUNNELS, LONG, VERY LONG WALK, NOT A WALK THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR PEOPLE AT THEIR AGE.

SHE WALK BARE FEET IN THE MUD OF THE TUNNELS WITHOUT AIR TO BREATHE, AND THERE WERE PEOPLE EVEN OLDER THERE THAT WAS VERY HARD TO BREATHE, AND THEY MARCH HOURS IN THE TUNNELS UNTIL THEY REACH A ROOM WHERE THEY STAYED TOGETHER, MANY PEOPLE, AND THEY GOT LIGHT ONLY FOR TWO HOURS A DAY.

THEY WERE FED ONLY BY RICE AND SOME BEANS FROM CAMP, WHICH THEY TRY TO AVOID EAT IN ORDER NOT TO HAVE STOMACH ACHE, AND, YOU KNOW, NOT TO MENTION, THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY DECENT FACILITIES LIKE SHOWER.

THEY DIDN'T SHOWER FOR SEVEN WEEKS.

SO, IT'S HORRIBLE CONDITION, AND I THINK THE WORST THING IS THAT THEY ARE NOT ONLY IN DARKNESS, LITERALLY, BUT ALSO IN DARKNESS IN TERMS OF KNOWLEDGE.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING, WHAT HAPPENED ABOVE.

IN ISRAEL AND ALL THE OTHER EVENTS.

THEY JUST HEARD THE BOMBING, NONSTOP BOMBING, UNTIL THE DAY BEFORE THEY RELEASE, SUDDENLY, THERE WAS AMAZING SILENCE.

AND THEY KNEW SOMETHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT.

>> WELL, EYAL, WE ARE SO HAPPY FOR YOU THAT YOUR AUNT IS HOME WITH YOU, AND I KEEP THINKING ABOUT THE WOMAN WHO SAID SHE GO IN HER PLACE.

THAT TELLS US A LOT ABOUT THE WOMAN YOUR AUNT IS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

BYE-BYE.

>>> WELL, THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGE IS A SMALL HEALING STEP FOR A COUNTRY GRIEVING.

AYELET GUNDAR-GOSHEN SAYS MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT CENTERS IN ISRAEL ARE STRUGGLING TO COPE, AND THAT SURVIVORS ARE GRAPPLING WITH INTENSE FEELINGS OF GUILT.

AYELET, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM FROM TE AVIV.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

SO MANY QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THIS REALLY IS UNCHARTEREDER THE TROIR THAT ISRAEL AND I WOULD IMAGINE MOST COUNTRIES ARE IN RIGHT NOW, NEVER AT SUCH A SCALE DID YOU HAVE SO MANY TRAUMATIZED PEOPLE RETURNING FROM BEING HELD CAPTIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT IS STILL SHELL-SHOCKED BY WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED OVER THE PAST SEVEN WEEKS.

CAN YOU JUST -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE ABLE TO LISTEN TO MY PREVIOUS INTERVIEW WITH EYAL ABOUT HIS AUNT, BUT HE SAID THAT SHE IS DETERMINED TO COME BACK BETTER THAN EVER, JUST AS SHE WAS, OBVIOUSLY THINGS ARE SO DIFFERENT, BEFORE, BUT THAT IS HER STRENGTH, AND THAT IS HER DETERMINATION, DESPITE THE FACT THAT SO MANY LOST THEIR LIVES, INCLUDING HER HUSBAND.

HER VINDICATION HERE IS COMING BACK, BUT WE KNOW, AS ENCOURAGING AS THAT MAY SOUND, THAT THAT'S REALLY NOT THE CASE.

FOR ANYONE.

>> I THINK YOU'RE VERY MUCH RIGHT.

I THINK WE CAN'T LOOK AT THIS AS THE HAPPY ENDING OF THE HOSTAGES COMING BACK HOME, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A HAPPY ENDING.

IT'S NOT LIKE A CLASSICAL CASE, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY BEING ABDUCTED AND COMING BACK TO THEIR LIVES.

THEY CAN'T GO BACK TO THEIR LIVES.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT ABIGAIL EDAN, A 4-YEAR-OLD GIRL, SHE WAS TAKEN TO GAZA, SHE RETURNS HOME NOW, BUT THERE IS NO HOME.

HER MOTHER WAS MURDERED, HER FATHER WAS MURDERED IN FRONT OF HER FACE, HER HOME WAS BURNED DOWN.

SHE COMES BACK AFTER 50 DAYS IN PRISON, SO, OF COURSE, WE HAVE HAPPY THAT SHE CAME BACK, BUT AS A THERAPIST, WE ALL KNOW THAT HER JOURNEY IS JUST BEGINNING.

THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

THIS IS NOT THE HAPPY ENDING THAT PEOPLE ARE STRIVING FOR.

>> EVERY PERSON IS DIFFERENT, EVERYBODY'S EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENCE AND HOW EVERYONE COPES WITH TRAGEDY IS DIFFERENT AND SHOCK LIKE THIS, BUT IF YOU COULD GIVE US A BROADER PICTURE OF HOW THE HEALING AND THE PROCESS OF TREATING THESE PEOPLE FROM CHILDREN TO 72-YEAR-OLDS BEGINS.

>> I THINK THE THING IS THAT YOU CANNOT TAKE AWAY THE SUFFERING.

YOU CANNOT TAKE AWAY THE PAIN.

WE CAN'T CHANGE REALITY.

WE CAN'T CHANGE WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

WE CAN TRY AND HELP THE WAY PEOPLE DEAL WITH REALITY.

IF A MOTHER COMES BACK HOME, AFTER BEING HELD IN PRISON, AND HER DAUGHTER DIDN'T SURVIVE AND HER DAUGHTER WAS KILLED, WE CANNOT HELP HER IN HER PAIN OVER HER DAUGHTER.

WHAT WE CAN TRY AND DO IS SEE IF SHE BLAMES HERSELF FOR HER DAUGHTER NOT SURVIVING THE ATTACK WHILE SHE SURVIVED IT, BECAUSE SELF-BLAME AND SURVIVOR'S GUILT ARE PHENOMENONS THAT WE KNOW MAKE PEOPLE PRONE TO HAVING PTSD, THAT CAN STOP THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO RECOVER OR EVEN TO HEAL A LITTLE BIT.

SO, EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T TAKE AWAY THE SUFFERING, WE CAN TRY AND HELP MOTHERS, VICTIMS, FATHERS, KIDS WHO SURVIVED, TO REALIZE THAT THIS IS NOT THEIR FAULT, THIS IS NOT THEIR FAULT FOR SURVIVING.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE ASHAMED FOR COMING BACK HOME WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE WILL NEVER COME BACK HOME.

AND I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE AS THERAPISTS HAVE TO DEAL WITH RIGHT NOW.

THE COLLECTIVE GUILT, THE SURVIAL GUILT, WHICH IS SOMETHING WE SEE AMONG MANY PATIENTS.

PEOPLE BLAME THEMSELVES FOR STAYING ALIVE WHILE THEIR CHILDREN WERE SUFFERING.

FATHER BLAMED HIMSELF FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO HELP THE MOTHERS OR HELP THEIR KIDS, SO THAT EVEN PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED THE MASSACRE WITHOUT BEING DIRECTLY AFFECTED ARE POISONED, IT'S LIKE THE ENTIRE NATION IS GOING WITH THIS ARROW OF GUILT STUCK IN THE HEART, AND WE ARE TRYING TO TAKE IT OUT, SO AT LEAST THIS PAIN CAN BE RELIEVED.

>> DOES ISRAEL AND THOSE IN YOUR PROFESSION THAT ARE SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT FINANCIALLY, AT LEAST, DOES ISRAEL HAVE THE RESOURCES NECESSARY NOW TO TAKE ON SUCH A CHALLENGE THAT, AGAIN, AS WE NOTED, NO OTHER COUNTRY, I CAN THINK OF, HAD TO EXPERIENCE SOMETHING AT THIS SCALE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN ISRAEL'S SIZE, AND WE KNOW THAT -- THAT THE HEALTH CENTERS, SPECIFICALLY WHEN IT COMES TO MENTAL HEALTH, WERE ALREADY STRAINED FOLLOWING COVID.

>> I'M WORKING AT A MENTAL HEALTH HOSPITAL, AND I MUST SAY, WE HAVE MORE VOLUNTEERS, MORE PSYCHOLOGISTS WHO ARE WANTING TO COME AND EVEN TO VOLUNTEER AND TO GIVE AID TO THE PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED THE MASSACRE.

WE SEE THE ENTIRE CIVIC SOCIETY, CIVIL SOCIETY, STANDING UP TO SUPPORT THE SURVIVALS.

IT IS A BIT TRICKY, THOUGH, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO WHEN YOU SEE SOMEONE WHO SURVIVED THE MASSACRE IS, YOU WANT TO HELP THEM WITH EVERYTHING, YOU WANT TO BRING THEM FOOD, YOU WANT TO DO THEIR LAUNDRY, YOU WANT TO LET THEM JUST STAY IN THE HOUSE, STAY IN BED, SO THAT THEY CAN HEAL.

AND THIS IS QUITE OFTEN A MISTAKE THAT THE COMMUNITY DOES, BECAUSE SOMETIMES WHEN YOU WANT TO SUPPORT SOMEONE, IT'S NOT ABOUT MAKING THEM STAY AT HOME AND YOU DO EVERYTHING FOR HIM.

SOMETIMES THE SUPPORT IS HELPING SOMEONE RECLAIM HIS -- THE WAY HE WAS BEFORE.

RECLAIM HIS LIFE SCHOOL SKILLS LIFE SKILLS.

SO, INSTEAD OF BRINGING THEM FOOD OR DOING THEIR LAUNDRY, YOU WOULD TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE PERSON TO GO BACK TO -- TO ACTIVITY.

AND IT'S VERY, VERY HARD, BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN, WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH NORMAL GRIEF.

WE'RE DEALING WITH A HUGE TRAUMA IN HUGE SCALES.

SO, OBVIOUSLY, MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL -- I KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T LEFT THEIR ROOMS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE GET BACK TO LIFE, BUT MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT IF THEY DO GET BACK TO LIFE, IT'S LIKE ABANDONING THE HOSTAGES.

THAT IF WE HAVE A SPARK OF LIFE IN US, IT MEANS, LIKE, MAYBE WE DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THE KIDS AND THE MOTHERS WHO ARE STILL UNTIL GAZA.

AND THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL SOLIDARITY ON ONE HAND, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRESERVES THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA.

THIS IS WHY THE ENTIRE COUNTRY IS IN TRAUMA RIGHT NOW.

THE HOSTAGES WILL HOPEFULLY BE RELEASED TODAY, A FEW OF THEM.

IF YOU GO OUT NOW TO TEL AVIV, NOBODY'S IN THE STREETS, NOBODY'S IN THE RESTAURANTS, BECAUSE EVERYONE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE KIDS ARE BACK AND THAT THE KIDS ARE SAFE, AND IT'S A BEAUTIFUL SOLIDARITY, BUT IT HAS A HUGE IMPACT OVER OUR ECONOMY, OVER OTHER PEOPLE WHO START SUFFERING FROM NIGHTMARES AND START SUFFERING FROM TRAUMA.

>> I KNOW YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL, BUT I CAN SEE HOW THIS HAS IMPACTED YOU, AS WELL, HOW COULD IT NOT?

YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING, AND THIS IS YOUR COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN ATTACKED.

YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA, UNDERSTANDABLY, MYSELF BEING PART OF IT, AND US CONDUCTING THIS INTERVIEW, WE WANT TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AS WE CAN, AND IT'S SORT OF A HEALING PROCESS, I WOULD SAY, FOR THE WORLD, HAVING SEEN WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, TO SEE THESE -- THESE FAMILIES REUNITED.

I'M JUST CURIOUS, FROM YOUR PROFESSIONAL PERSPECTIVE, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU SEE THESE FIRST VIDEOS AND THE IMAGES OF THE FAMILIES REUNITING WITH THEIR LOVED ONES?

>> I -- IN THESE MOMENTS, I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL, I'M A MOTHER, AND WHEN I SAW ABIGAIL COMING BACK, I HAVE KIDS HER AGE.

AND THINKING HOW HAPPY I AM THAT SHE'S OUT AND I'M THINKING HOW MUCH SHE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THE WORLD YET THAT AWAITS FOR HER WHEN SHE'S COMING OUT RIGHT NOW.

SO, THESE ARE VERY EMOTIONAL MOMENTS, AND I THINK AS A PROFESSIONAL, THE MAIN THING I'M THINKING ABOUT IS WHAT'S NEXT, HOW ARE WE GOING TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE?

IT'S NOT JUST THE HOSTAGES RELEASED.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT BEHIND EVERY HOSTAGE, THERE IS A FAMILY, THERE IS A COMMUNITY, THE BEAUTIFUL COMMUNITY LOST ONE OF EVERY FOUR MEMBERS IN THE COMMUNITY.

ONE OF EVERY FOUR MEMBERS BUT EITHER MURDERED, KIDNAPPED, OR MISSING.

SO, PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T EVEN DIRECTLY EFFECTED CAN'T BREATHE RIGHT NOW, AND THE ONLY GOOD THING I CAN THINK ABOUT IS THAT WE ARE STANDING STRONG AS A COMMUNITY, TRYING TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER, AND I HOPE THAT THIS GIVES THE FAMILIES A LITTLE BIT OF COMFORT, THAT AT LEAST THEY KNOW THEY ARE NOT ALONE NOW.

THEY WERE ALONE ON THE DAY OF THE MASSACRE, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALONE NOW.

I HOPE THEY KNOW THAT.

>> AYELET THANK YOU FOR THE TIME, AND IT IS REASSURING TO HEAR THAT NOT ONLY PROFESSIONALS LIKE YOU, BUT AS YOU MENTIONED, SO MANY OTHERS, ARE JUST OFFERING TO HELP IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE, AS THESE REALLY TRAUMATIZED AND WOUNDED HOSTAGES RETURN HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES AND FOR NOW, THEY ARE THE LUCKY ONES, BECAUSE CLEARLY THERE ARE SO MANY MORE TO MAKE A SAFE RETURN, AS WELL.

WE HOPE TO YOU HAVE BACK SOON.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WELL, WE TURN NOW TO JUBILANT SCENES IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

AS THEY CELEBRATE DETAINEES RELEASED.

PEOPLE IN RAMALLAH CAN BE SEEN WAVING PALESTINIAN AND HAMAS FLAGS.

HERE IS THE MOMENT A WOMAN WAS REUNITED WITH HER SON IN EAST JERUSALEM AFTER NEARLY A DECADE IN PRISON.

SHE WAS SENTENCED TO 13 YEARS BACK IN 2015, AFTER ISRAEL ACCUSED HER OF ATTEMPTED MURDER WHEN HER CAR BLEW UP AT A CHECKPOINT, A CHARGE SHE HAS DENIED.

IT COMES AS PALESTINIANS ARE SUBJECT TO ONGOING RESTRICTIONS, PARTICULARLY FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.

"A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ABED SALAMA SALAMA" IS THE STORY OF A 2012 BUS ACCIDENT AND A FAMILY CAUGHT UP IN THE TRAGIC BUREAUCRATIC REALITY OF BEING PALESTINIAN LIVING IN THE WEST BANK.

JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR NATHAN THRALL FOUND HIMSELF PROMOTING HIS BOOK WHEN THE DEVASTATING EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th UNFOLDED, AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK TO DISCUSS.

NATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IF I CAN JUST PICK UP ON A POINT AYELET MADE IN OUR PREVIOUS CONVERSATION NOW, WHERE THE SUFFERING, SHE NOTED, IS ON BOTH SIDES, OBVIOUSLY IN GAZA, AS WELL.

SHE HAD WRITTEN AN OP-ED LAST MONTH WHERE SHE NOTED THAT THE TRAUMA IS PROFOUND ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER.

WE KNOW THAT PALESTINIAN CHILDREN AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS HAVE WITNESSED HORRORS, AS WELL.

IF YOU COULD JUST PUT INTO CONTEXT HOW YOU'VE BEEN DEALING WITH A BOOK WHICH YOU WROTE PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7th, BUT NOW, THE SCENES THAT WE'RE SEEING CAN -- ONE COULD ARGUE COULD APPLY TO THE MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING IN THIS BOOK, AS WELL.

>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S TREMENDOUS TRAUMA RIGHT NOW FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, MILLIONS OF ISRAELI JEWS, MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS, AND THE SUBJECT OF MY BOOK IS THAT THEME, IS THE DEEP, DEEP TRAUMA THAT MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS FACE, LIVING IN A SYSTEM OF GROSS INEQUALITY.

AND THROUGH THE STORY OF THIS TRAGIC BUS ACCIDENT AND A FATHER WHO CAN'T PASS THROUGH CHECKPOINTS TO FIND HIS OWN SON, HIS KINDERGARTEN SON, WHO WAS KILLED IN THAT ACCIDENT, HE DIDN'T KNOW IT AT THE TIME, I TRY TO TELL THE WHOLE STORY OF ISRAEL/PALESTINE AND THE DEEP SCARS THAT BOTH OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LIVING WITH.

YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST HAD MENTIONED THE SURVIVOR'S GUILT AND THE BLAME THAT MANY OF THESE PARENTS ARE INFLICTING ON THEMSELVES, AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, A THEME THAT EXISTS IN MY BOOK, AS WELL.

THESE PARENTS HAD ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO PREVENT THIS ACCIDENT, HAD NO WAY TO GET TO THEIR CHILDREN FASTER, DESPITE ALL OF THE OBSTACLES, HAD NO WAY TO ENSURE THAT ISRAELI FIRE TRUCKS WOULD GET THERE SOONER THAN A HALF HOUR AFTER THE BUS CRASH.

AND YET, THEY BLAMED THEMSELVES, AND ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT THINGS IN MY CONVERSATIONS WITH THESE FAMILIES AND THESE PARENTS WAS THE TREMENDOUS GUILT THAT THEY FELT.

THEIR INABILITY TO FORGIVE THEMSELVES FOR THE DEATH OF THAT ARE THEIR CHILDREN.

AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING NOW AT THE TREMENDOUS SUFFERING OF MORE THAN 14,000 DEAD IN GAZA, AND HUNDREDS OF HOSTAGES AND MORE THAN 1,200 DEAD IN ISRAEL, IT'S EASY FOR US TO FOCUS NARROWLY ON THIS IMMEDIATE SUFFERING AND IT IS RIGHT THAT WE FOCUS ON IT, BUT WE SHOULD ALSO LOOK AT THE DECADES-LONG SYSTEM THAT KEEPS PRODUCING THESE TRAUMAS, THAT KEEPS PRODUCING THIS BLOODSHED.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT MY BOOK AIMS TO HIGHLIGHT, IS THE STRUCTURAL FORCES THAT ARE IN PLACE, THAT ARE PRODUCING DAILY VIOLENCE, IN ORDER TO KEEP THE SYSTEM IN PLACE, BECAUSE NO PEOPLE WILL WILLINGLY ACCEPT OPPRESSION, AND THE VIOLENCE THAT IT PRODUCES IN RETURN.

>> CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HOW YOU CAME TO KNOW ABED, AND AT THE TIME, HIS SON, WHO DIED IN 2012, WAS MILAD, HE WAS JUST 5 YEARS OLD.

I KNOW YOU LIVED JUST, WHAT, 2 1/2 MILES AWAY FROM EACH OTHER, BUT ONE COULD DESCRIBE IT AS TWO VERY DIFFERENT WORLDS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I LIVE IN JERUSALEM, AND I'M JUST TWO MILES AWAY FROM ABED SALAMA, WHOSE SON MILAD DIED IN THIS TRAGIC ACCIDENT, BUT ABED LIVES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A 26-FOOT TALL CONCRETE WALL IN A COMMUNITY THAT IS ENCLOSED ON FOUR SIDES BY WALLS.

AND IN THAT COMMUNITY, THERE ARE VIRTUALLY NO MUNICIPAL SERVICES PROVIDED BY THE JERUSALEM MUNICIPALITY.

THERE IS TRASH BURNED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET.

THERE ARE NO SIDEWALKS, THERE ARE NO PLAYGROUNDS.

THERE ARE NO LANES IN THE ROAD.

AND WHEN I WOULD TRAVEL TO VISIT ABED IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT'S JUST TWO MILES AWAY FROM ME, SOMETHING THAT I WOULD PASS BY ALMOST EVERY DAY AND NOT PAY A MOMENT'S THOUGHT, WHEN I WOULD GO AND VISIT HIM, I WOULD HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, ROLL DOWN MY CAR WINDOW AND PULL IN MY SIDE MIRROR, JUST TO PASS BY A BUS ON THE MAIN THOROUGHFARE FOR ABOUT 130,000 PEOPLE.

AND YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT THE TRAFFIC JAMS ARE LIKE DAY IN AND DAY OUT FOR ALL OF THESE PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS WALLED ENCLAVE.

IT COULDN'T BE A MORE DIFFERENT EXISTENCE THAN THE ONE I HAVE IN JERUSALEM, JUST TWO MILES AWAY, AND MY, YOU KNOW, MOTIVE IN WRITING THIS BOOK WAS TO TELL THE STORY OF THESE PEOPLE THAT SHARE THE CITY WITH ME, AND LIVE A SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL EXISTENCE.

SO, I FOUND ABED THROUGH A MUTUAL FRIEND WHO WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO HIM, KNEW I WAS INVESTIGATING THIS TRAGIC CAR ACCIDENT, AND PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH ANOTHER RELATIVE, WHO PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH ABED.

>> THE STORY CENTERS AROUND A BUS ACCIDENT, WHICH ANYONE CAN RELATE TO, IN WHICHEVER COUNTRY THEY LIVE IN.

YOU THINK OF YOUNG CHILDREN WHO DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE ACCESS TO A GREEN, THRIVING PARK CLOSE TO THEM, AND THEY ARE EXCITED ABOUT SPENDING A DAY ON AN ADVENTURE GOING TO A PARK A BIT FURTHER, AND TRAGICALLY DIE IN A CAR ACCIDENT.

BUT YOU REALLY LAY OUT THE COMPLEXITIES IN WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT CAR ACCIDENT.

THAT REALLY COULD LEAD TO WHETHER OR NOT SOME OF THESE SURVIVORS END UP LIVING, OR IN THE CASE OF MILAD, DYING.

TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENT COLOR IDENTITY CARDS THAT ONE FAMILY MAY EVEN HAVE AMONG THEMSELVES.

>> YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS WALLED ENCLAVE, THERE ARE, INSIDE A SINGLE FAMILY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GREEN WEST BANK I.D.s THAT FORBID THEM FROM USING ONE OF THE EXITS FROM THE ENCLAVE INTO THE REST OF JERUSALEM, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE SAME FAMILY, IN THE SAME ENCLAVE, WHO HAVE BLUE JERUSALEM I.D.s THAT LET THEM ENTER THE REST OF JERUSALEM.

AND THIS HAD ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR THE PARENTS AND CHILDREN AND TEACHERS ON THE DAY OF THIS ACCIDENT.

IN FACT, THE EXISTENCE OF THIS SYSTEM, WITH SEPARATE GREEN AND BLUE COLORED I.D.s FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN THE SAME COMMUNITY, WAS WHY THIS BUS ACTUALLY TRAVELED A GREAT DISTANCE TO GO TO A PLAY AREA CLOSE TO RAMALLAH, RATHER THAN A PLAY AREA JUST ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL IN THE JEWISH SETTLEMENT.

AND ON THIS DAY, WHEN THE BUS WAS STRUCK, FLIPPED OVER AND CAUGHT FIRE, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE ROAD THAT DAY, PALESTINIAN BYSTANDERS, THEMSELVES HAD GREEN OR BLUE I.D.s, AND WHEN THEY TOOK THESE CHILDREN OFF THE BUS, BECAUSE THE EMERGENCY SERVICES TOOK SO VERY LONG TO REACH THIS NEGLECTED AREA, THEY WOULD TAKE THE KIDS BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR I.D.

TO A SPECIFIC LOCATION, SO, IF YOU HAD A BLUE JERUSALEM I.D., YOU WOULD TAKE A SOOT-COVERED KINDERGARTEN IN THE BACK SEAT OF YOUR CAR TO A NEARBY JERUSALEM HOSPITAL, WHICH IS FAR SUPERIOR THAN THE HOSPITALS FOR PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK, AND IF YOU HAD A GREEN WEST BANK I.D., YOU COULDN'T GO TO JERUSALEM HOSPITALS, SO, YOU WENT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION TO THE HOSPITAL IN RAMALLAH.

AND SIMILARLY, WHEN THE PARENTS THEMSELVES RUSHED TO THE SCENE OF THE CRASH, THEY GOT THERE AND ALL OF THE PARENTS -- THE CHILDREN HAD BEEN EVACUATED BY THESE BYSTANDERS WHO HAD GREEN OR BLUE I.D.s.

ABED HIMSELF ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AND FOUND A CROWD AND ASKED, WHERE ARE THE CHILDREN?

AND HE RECEIVED SO MANY DIFFERENT ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION, THEY'RE AT THIS JERUSALEM HOSPITAL, THEY'RE AT THIS WEST JERUSALEM HOSPITAL, THEY'RE AT THE ISRAELI MILITARY BASE A MINUTE UP THE ROAD, THEY'RE AT THE HOSPITAL IN RAMALLAH, AND ABED HIMSELF HAS A GREEN WEST BANK I.D., SO, HE IS UNABLE TO GO AND SEARCH IN MANY OF THESE PLACES.

HE CAN'T GO TO WEST JERUSALEM, HE CANNOT GO TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY BASE, AND SO, HE GOES TO THE HOSPITAL IN RAMALLAH AND CALLS ON RELATIVES WHO HAVE BLUE I.D.s TO GO SEARCH FOR HIS SON IN THE HOSPITAL.

>> AND IT WAS -- IT WAS ULTIMATELY A BLOOD TEST WITH HIS OLDER -- ONE OF HIS OTHER CHILDREN THAT CONFIRMED THE DEATH OF MILAD.

I WAS REALLY TOUCHED, JUST BY THE RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU BUILT WITH ABED, YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS A THERAPY SESSION, I WOULD IMAGINE, NOT ONLY FOR ABED, BUT FOR YOURSELF, AS WELL, AND EVERYONE THAT YOU SPENT SO MANY THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND YEARS INTERVIEWING AND SPENDING TIME WITH, PUTTING THIS BOOK TOGETHER.

NATHAN THRALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING IT WITH US TODAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WELL, NOW LANGUAGE CAN BEAR INCREDIBLE WEIGHT.

ESPECIALLY IN TIMES OF CONFLICT.

OUR NEXT GUEST UNDERSTANDS THIS BETTER THAN MOST.

ROXANE GAY IS A BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTOR FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND HAS BEEN SHARING HER THOUGHTS ON A WIDE RANGE OF TOPICS SINCE 2014.

SHE RECENTLY PUBLISHED A NEW BOOK, "OPINIONS: A DECADES OF ARGUMENTS, CRITICISM, AND MINDING OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS."

AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE POWER OF SPEECH.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

ROXANE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU STARTED YOUR PUBLIC OPINION JOURNEY ONLINE, AND WAS JUST WONDERING, DO YOU REMEMBER WHY YOU FIRST STARTED SHARING YOUR OPINIONS PUBLICLY ONLINE?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MOTIVATED YOU?

>> YEAH, IT STARTED A LONG TIME AGO, EVEN BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA, I WOULD GO ON BULLETIN BOARDS IN THE OLD DAYS OF THE INTERNET, AND IT WAS GREAT TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE.

THE INTERNET WAS TRULY A MARVEL.

YOU COULD BE SITTING IN A DORM ROOM IN CONNECTICUT AND YOU COULD TALK TO SOMEONE WHO WAS LIKE A HAM RADIO ENTHUSIAST IN PHOENIX, OR IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY.

AND THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO ME.

AND WHEN YOU FOUND AN AFFINITY GROUP WITH PEOPLE THAT CARED ABOUT THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU DID, YOU COULD HAVE ALL KINDS OF INTERESTING NICHE CONVERSATIOS ONLINE.

SO, IT STARTED THERE, FOR SURE.

>> AND IT WAS -- ALL THE BAD STUFF HADN'T STARTED YET.

>> THIS WAS WELL BEFORE THE BAD STUFF.

AND IT'S NOT TO SAY IT WAS A PARADISE.

I MEAN, THERE ARE ALWAYS STRANGE PEOPLE AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY NO SHORTAGE OF PREDATORS, BUT IT WASN'T THE SORT OF TOXIC MEASMA THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BECOME NOW.

AND I DEFINITELY MISS THOSE DAYS.

I THINK MOST OF US DO.

>> WELL, YOU WRITE ACROSS A NUMBER OF PLATFORMS, AND YOU WRITE ABOUT ACTIVISM, RACE, GENDER, WORK/LIFE ISSUES, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, INTERESTING.

BUT ONE THING THAT I NOTICE COMES UP A LOT IS SPEECH ITSELF, AND THE WAY SPEECH WORKS UNTIL, RIGHT NOW.

WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STUDENT ACTIVISM OR JOKES BY COMEDIANS OR RACIST HATE SPEECH.

YOU'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO KIND OF MAKE DISTINCTIONS AMONG DIFFERENT KINDS OF SPEECH.

I WAS JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THAT COMES UP A LOT OR COMES UP AS MUCH AS IT DOES.

>> PRIMARILY, WE'RE DEALING WITH THIS SORT OF OPEN-AIR BAZAAR OF IDEAS ON THE INTERNET, WHICH MEANS THAT ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WITH ALL KINDS OF PERSPECTIVES ARE COMING TO THE TABLE, AND SOME OF THOSE PERSPECTIVES ARE DANGEROUS.

AND, OF COURSE, WHEN YOU BELIEVE IN FREEDOM OF SPEECH, AS I DO, IT MEANS THAT THOSE KINDS OF SPEECH ARE GOING TO BE AROUND, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO TOLERATE THEM IN THE SPACES THAT WE INHABIT.

AND SO, I THINK QUITE A LOT ABOUT HOW WE CARE FOR THE SPACES THAT WE ARE APART OF.

AND WHAT KINDS OF LIMITS AND GUARDRAILS WE'RE GOING TO PUT AROUND THOSE SPACES TO PROTECT THEM.

NOT TO MAKE THEM SAFE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK SAFETY EXISTS, BUT TO CREATE PLACES WHERE YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH BIGOTRY IN WAYS THAT ARE JUST UNPRODUCTIVE.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FIND REALLY INTERESTING, THOUGH, IS THAT YOU ARE CONSTANTLY ASKING PEOPLE TO THINK WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLEXITY, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY.

I'M THINKING ABOUT ONE OF THE PIECES IN THE COLLECTION, THE SEDUCTION OF SAFETY ON CAMPUS AND BEYOND, WHICH WAS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND IT TALKS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CENSORSHIP AND CONSEQUENCES.

YOU SAID, I BELIEVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS SACRED.

THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF CONSEQUENCE.

YOU CAN SPEAK YOUR MIND, BUT YOU CAN BE SHUNNED.

YOU CAN BE CRITICIZED, YOU CAN LOSE YOUR JOB.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM.

BUT YOU ALSO GO ON TO SAY THAT EVERY CONSEQUENCE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME, AND THAT YOU CALL ON PEOPLE TO SORT OF MAKE SOME DISTINCTIONS, AND I WAS -- YOU KNOW, THIS SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING THAT -- THAT YOU'VE RETURNED TO, AND I'M JUST INTERESTED IN WHY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO, FOR ONE THING.

WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO YOU, AND WHY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

THEY THINK THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH MEANS THE RIGHT TO PUBLISH A BOOK, TO BE ON A PRIVATE SOCIAL MEDIA NETWORK SAYING ANY OLD THING.

THAT'S NOT AT ALL WHAT FREE SPEECH MEANS.

IT MEANS YOU WON'T BE ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR WHAT YOU SAY.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BRING NUANCE TO THESE SUBJECTS, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, BUT THE CONSEQUENCES FOR FREE SPEECH, THERE SHOULD BE A RANGE OF CONSEQUENCES.

THE IDEA THAT EVERYONE WHO MISSTEPS, AND I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT STAYING SOMETHING YOU DISAGREE WITH, I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ACTUAL HATE SPEECH, DEATH THREATS, RAPE THREATS AND THE LIKE, YOU KNOW, THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES, BUT WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE CONSEQUENCE FOR WHATEVER THE THING IS, INSTEAD OF ASSUMING THAT WE CAN JUST SORT OF TAKE A BROAD HAMMER TO A SINGULAR NAIL.

THAT'S NOT REALLY HOW IT WORKS.

AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN THERE YET IN TERMS OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE, IN TERMS OF FIGURING OUT, HOW DO WE MANAGE SCALE AND PROPORTION?

WE JUST -- WE'RE NOT THERE YET.

>> I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN NOW, WHERE WE'RE FINDING COLLEGE STUDENTS, LAW STUDENTS, HAVING JOB OFFERS WITHDRAWN BECAUSE THEY PARTICIPATED IN DEMONSTRATIONS THAT SOME PEOPLE FELT, OR WROTE A LETTER, OR SIGNED A LETTER, THAT SOME PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED BY.

>> I THINK IT'S A PROBLEM.

I THINK IT'S A REAL -- I THINK IT'S REALLY STRAINING THE SORT OF BOUNDARIES THAT WE'RE GOING TO PUNISH COLLEGE STUDENTS FOR STANDING UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

NOW, IF THOSE COLLEGE STUDENTS ARE BEHAVING IN WAYS THAT ARE ANTI-SEMITIC, ISLAMISLAMOPHOBIC, PROBABLY DON'T DESERVE A JOB AT THE END OF THAT JOURNEY.

BUT THAT'S REALLY NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

IN MANY INSTANCES, WE'RE SEEING COLLEGE STUDENTS, RIGHT OR WRONG, ARE ADVOCAING FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN, AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN, WE SHOULD ALL BELIEVE IN.

WHICH IS AN END TO ATROCITY, A CEASE-FIRE.

AND SO, WHAT KIND OF CONDITION ARE WE IN AS A PEOPLE IF WE THINK THAT'S A BRIDGE TOO FAR?

YOU KNOW?

I THINK WE REALLY SORT OF HAVE TO HAVE THAT KIND OF CHECK-IN WITH OURSELVES, BECAUSE I THINK SOME MORAL COMPASSES ARE WILDLY OFF.

>> I WANTED TO GO BACK FOR A SECOND AND ASK ABOUT YOU, LIKE, DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME SOMETHING YOU WROTE GOT ATTENTION?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU WROTE AND -- TELL ME ABOUT IT.

>> IT WAS AN ESSAY THAT'S CALLED "THE CARELESS LANGUAGE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE."

A YOUNG GIRL IN CLEVELAND, TEXAS, HAD BEEN GANG RAPED, AND IT WAS A HORRIFIC CRIME, AND THE TOWN WAS REELING, AND I WAS JUST LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT?

THE TOWN?

I THINK THE CHILD WHO DEALT WITH, LIKE, 20, 30 ASSAILANTS, I THINK PERHAPS SHE WAS REELING A BIT MORE THAN THE TOWN.

AND I WAS JUST INCENSED.

AND SO, I WROTE THIS ESSAY IN A MATTER OF HOURS, AND IT WAS PUBLISHED AND IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PIECES I WROTE THAT GAINED A SIGNIFICANT AUDIENCE, IT WAS PUBLISHED IN A MAGAZINE CALLED "THE RUMPUS."

AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ENDED UP REREPORTING THE STORY, AND PUTTING THE FOCUS MORE APPROPRIATELY WHERE IT BELONGED.

ON THE YOUNG GIRL AND THIS SORT OF STAGGERING DETAILS OF THIS CRIME.

AND SO THAT WAS AMAZING TO ME, THAT I COULD WRITE SOMETHING FROM, LIKE, MY LITTLE OLD LIFE, AND I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AT THE TIME GETTING MY Ph.D IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, AND STILL, MY WORDS REACHED PEOPLE WELL BEYOND MY IMMEDIATE SPHERE.

IT WAS ABSOLUTELY UNEXPECTED.

AND WHEN THE PIECE FOUND AN AUDIENCE, AND IT DID CONTRIBUTE TO AN ONGOING CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND HOW WE WRITE ABOUT IT, HOW WE TALK ABOUT IT, HOW WE DEPICT IT IN FILM AND TELEVISION, YOU KNOW, THAT FELT BITTERSWEET, IN THAT I WAS SORRY THAT THIS THING HAD HAPPENED TO THIS CHILD, THAT REQUIRED THIS WRITING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS GLAD THAT WE COULD AT LEAST PERHAPS HAVE A BETTER CONVERSATION ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH WE TALK ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT WHETTED YOUR APPETITE TO TRY TO PERSUADE OR INFLUENCE OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH YOUR WRITING?

THE IMPRESSION I GOT IS THAT SOME OF YOUR WRITING STARTED OUT AS BEING FOR YOU, AND A LOT IS JUST FOR THEM.

AND I'M WONDERING, IS THERE -- IS THERE A POINT IN WHICH YOU WRITE FOR A PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO CLARIFY YOUR OWN THINKING?

>> I PRIMARILY STILL WRITE FOR MYSELF.

AND THAT OTHER PEOPLE FIND WAYS TO CONNECT WITH THE WORK IS AN AMEND ADDED BONUS, HONESTLY.

EVERY TIME I WRITE SOMETHING AND I SEND IT TO AN EDITOR, I TELL MYSELF, GIRL, DON'T WORRY, NO ONE IS GOING TO READ IT.

IT IS INCREASINGLY MORE DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT, SOMETHING OF AN AUDIENCE FOR MY WORK NOW, BUT TELLING MYSELF, NO ONE'S GOING TO READ IT IS WHAT ALLOWS ME TO SAY WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SAY ON THE PAGE FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

AND, YOU KNOW, DID IT WHET MY APPETITE?

I MEAN, THERE IS SOMETHING WONDERFUL ABOUT BEING READ, AND I THINK ANY WRITER WOULD ADMIT THAT, IF THEY'RE BEING HONEST.

YES, YOU WRITE FOR YOURSELF, BUT WHEN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR YOURSELF MANAGES TO REACH OTHER PEOPLE, IT FEELS GREAT, AND I -- I CAN'T PRETEND THAT IT DOESN'T.

IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE AT A PLACE IN MY CAREER WHERE I KNOW THAT MY WORK WILL BE READ.

MAYBE NOT BY MILLIONS, IT WILL BE READ BY AT LEAST, LIKE, ONE PERSON, AND THAT -- THAT IS GREAT.

AND I THINK IT MAKES YOU FEEL LESS ALONE IN THE WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT CRACKED ME UP IS YOU SAID, YOU ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE AS MANY OPINIONS AS PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE, AND PEOPLE SOMETIMES USE YOU LIKE AN OPINION VENDING MACHINE.

IS IT LIKE AT PARTIES WHERE, LIKE, PEOPLE WOULD, YOU KNOW, CORNER A DOCTOR AND WANT PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THEIR RASH, I MEAN, IS IT -- IS IT LIKE THAT, LIKE, YOU GO TO A PARTY -- >> IT'S EXACTLY LIKE THAT.

MOST WRITERS, YOU GET TO BE ANONYMOUS.

NOBODY'S EVER GOING TO KNOW YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET, BUT I AM TALL, I AM FAT, I HAVE TATTOOS, LIKE, I'M PRETTY RECOGNIZABLE TO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY READ MY WORK, SO, I GET STOPPED QUITE A LOT.

AND WHEN I AM, PEOPLE TEND TO SAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT -- AND IT COULD BE ANYTHING FROM THE NEWS "HOUSEWIVES" TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, AND, YOU KNOW, OCTOBER 7th.

SOMEONE'S RECENT NEWS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

IT'S A RANGE OF THINGS.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE THAT INSTINCT COMES FROM, BUT SOMETIMES I HONESTLY DON'T HAVE AN OPINION OR I DON'T HAVE AN OPINION THAT I'M GOING TO SHARE WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT MY FAMILY.

AND OTHER TIMES, IT'S JUST LIKE, OH, MAN, I DON'T KNOW, I'M JUST TRYING TO WALK INTO THIS OPERA RIGHT NOW, AND SIT FOR THREE HOURS LISTENING TO PEOPLE SING.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU, SO, IT'S A MIXED BAG.

>> YOU SAY YOU KNOW WHERE THAT INSTINCT COMINGS FROM.

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT COMES FROM?

IT'S INTERESTING, ON THE ONE HAND, PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION, ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE LIKE, WHO THE HELL ASKED YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THERE IS ALWAYS THAT, AND I'M JUST WONDERING, WHAT IS IT DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE SEEKING IN SEEKING YOU OUT?

>> I THINK A LOT OF TIMES, PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY THINK IS ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

THEY WANT TO BE AFFIRMED IN THEIR POINT OF VIEW, OR, THEY LOOK TO MY WORK OR TO THE WORK OF OTHER WRITERS LIKE ME TO HELP THEM FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO THINK.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S JUST, AGAIN, THAT SENSE OF CONNECTION, THAT SENSE OF GUIDANCE, AND THEY MAY NOT AGREE WITH ME, BUT WHAT I WRITE OFTENTIMES PEOPLE TELL ME HELPS THEM ARRIVE TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

YOU KNOW, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, SO, I THINK A LOT OF IT COMES FROM THAT, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S MALICIOUS.

I ACTUALLY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT'S NOT, MOST OF THE TIME, MALICIOUS, UNLESS, LIKE, PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO, LIKE, CATCH ME IN SOMETHING, LIKE, OH, YOU SAID SOMETHING ELSE THE OTHER DAY.

YEAH, PROBABLY, I'M HUMAN.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S OFFERED IN GOOD FAITH, I TRY TO BE AS PATIENT AS POSSIBLE.

>> YOU ALSO WROTE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

>> YEAH.

>> SYSTEMIC RACISM, BLACK PEOPLE BEING KILLED BY THE POLICE, OR BY, YOU KNOW, VIGILANTES, AND YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT YOU'RE TIRED OF IT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> YOU'RE TIRED OF WRITING ABOUT IT.

YOU WROTE IN THE WAKE OF GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER, I WRITE SIMILAR THINGS ABOUT DIFFERENT BLACK LIVES LOST OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I TELL MYSELF, I AM DONE WITH THIS SUBJECT.

THEN SOMETHING SO HORRIFIC HAPPENS THAT I KNOW I MUST SAY SOMETHING, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO TRULY NEED TO BE MOVED ARE IMMOVABLE.

SO, SAY MORE, LIKE, WHY?

IF THE IDEA IS TO MOVE PEOPLE, WHY KEEP WRITING ABOUT SOMETHING WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE THEY'RE NOT LISTENING?

IS IT FOR YOU?

WHO IS IT FOR?

>> I THINK IT'S OFTEN FOR ME, BECAUSE I DO -- WITH EVERY NEW INSTANCE OF POLICE BRUTALITY OR EXTRAJUDICIAL MURDER THAT WE LEARN ABOUT, EVERY GRAVE INJUSTICE I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, I JUST THINK, AGAIN?

AND CLEARLY WORDS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP THIS.

I KNOW THAT A LOT OF US WHO WRITE BELIEVE THAT SORT OF, WE'RE GOING TO ENGENDER ENOUGH EMPATHY THROUGH THE WRITTEN WORD TO MAKE EVERYTHING BETTER, BUT THAT'S CLEARLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT DOES THAT MEAN WE DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?

I MEAN, THAT'S WHERE I STRUGGLE.

LIKE, SILENCE IS NOT GOING TO MAKE THE PROBLEM BETTER, EITHER.

AND SO, THERE ARE THESE INSTANCES, LIKE, WITH GEORGE FLOYD, WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THIS MAN, DEREK CHAUVIN, STARING AT THE CAMERA FOR 8:44, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, KNOWING WHAT HE WAS DOING, KNOWING THAT PEOPLE WERE WATCHING HIM, AND THINKING THAT HE COULD CONTINUE HIS SORT OF DEATH SPIRAL WITH IMPUNITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, EACH SORT OF NEW HORRIFIC CASE IS SO EXTRA HORRIFIC, IT'S LIKE, HOW COULD I NOT SAY SOMETHING?

AND SO, IT'S THIS ONGOING DILEMMA.

BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE WHAT A LUXURY IT IS TO BE EXHAUSTED WHEN REALLY, YOU CAN'T.

I MEAN, YOU CAN FEEL THAT WAY, BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO MOVE ON FROM THAT, BECAUSE SILENCE, AS I SAID, ISN'T GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, I DON'T KNOW THAT WRITING IS GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, BUT AT LEAST WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT, WHEN WE BEAR WITNESS, WE MAKE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT OKAY, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, THIS MAN LOST HIS LIFE, AND THEN, OF COURSE, PEOPLE WITHIN LIKE, HE DID THIS, THAT -- I DON'T CARE.

THE PENANCEF COUNTERFEIT MONEY OR WHATEVER IS NOT DEATH.

ESPECIALLY NOT IN MINNESOTA, OKAY?

LIKE, LET'S JUST GET SOME PERSPECTIVE HERE.

LET'S REALLY FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS, WHICH IS THAT NO ONE SHOULD TAKE ANYONE ELSE'S LIFE.

AND CERTAINLY NO ONE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOULD BE DOING THAT.

AND WE SHOULD BE SAFE.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRIVE, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD A PACKAGE OF SKITTLES IN OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD WITHOUT BEING KILLED BY SOMEONE.

WHO THINKS THAT THEY'RE DOING THE WORLD A FAMOUS BY GETTING RID OF ONE MORE BLACK PERSON.

>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS ONE THING, EVERYBODY ASKS, YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO ASK.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WERE JUST WRONG ABOUT?

>> NO.

AND THE THING IS, IT'S NOT THAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING, WHAT I SAY IS, AND THIS IS WHAT I TRULY FEEL, I DID THE BEST I COULD WITH THE SKILLS AND THE KNOWLEDGE I HAD AT THE TIME.

AND IF ANYTHING, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THATTAL LOT OF MY OPINIONS HAVE EVOLVED.

THEY HAVE GOTTEN MORE SOPHISTICATED, MORE PROGRESSIVE.

WHERE TEN YEARS AGO, I WOULD HAVE PROBABLY SAID, LIKE, LET'S FIND A WAY TO REFORM THE POLICE, NOW I'M LIKE, HMM, PRETTY SURE THEY CAN'T BE REFORMED.

AND WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT SOMETHING ELSE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SOMETHING ELSE IS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT BETTER WAY OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IS, BUT YOU CANNOT REFORM SOMETHING THAT IS SOER REPAIR BLY BROKEN.

SO, IT'S MORE THAT I'VE JUST LEARNED MORE, AND HOPEFULLY GOTTEN MORE NUANCED IN MY THINKING, BUT -- THE REASON IT'S EASY TO SAY NO, I HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY WRONG, IS BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT I BELIEVE IS JUST, WOMEN ARE PEOPLE.

WE SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM.

POLICE BRUTALITY AND EXTRAJUDICIAL MURDER ARE BAD.

LIKE, THESE ARE NOT REALLY THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE DEBATING, EVEN THOUGH CLEARLY WE ARE DEBATING THESE THINGS.

SO -- IT'S REALLY THAT.

>> ROXANE GAY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, IRISH AUTHOR PAUL LYNCH WINS THIS YEAR'S BOOK REPRICE FOR HIS FIFTH NOVEL "PROPHET SONG."

SET IN A DYSTOPIAN FUTURE, IT DEALS WITH THE STORY OF A FAMILY FACED WITH THE DOWNFALL OF DEMOCRACY IN IRELAND.

PAUL IS WITH US NOW.

THIS BOOK SAYS YOU HAVE THE BEST ENGLISH LANGUAGE BOOK OF THE YEAR.

>> IT'S VERY STRANGE, BIANNA.

I GENUINELY -- I'M STILL PINCHING MYSELF.

I HAVE NOT PROCESSED THIS, I'VE BEEN IN A MEDIA SORT OF TUNNEL NOW SINCE HALF SEVEN THIS MORNING.

MY FEET HAVEN'T TOUCHED THE GROUND, AND I'M THINKING ABOUT LIFE BACK HOME AND IT SEEMS VERY FAR AWAY AND VERY HUM DRUM, A SUDDEN CHANGE IN MY LIFE HERE.

>> WELL, YOU'RE DUE TO FLOAT IN THE AIR FOR, WE'LL GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF DAYS TO TAKE THIS ALL IN, BUT AS WE TALK ABOUT YOUR SUCCESS AND THIS BOOK AND WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU, TELL OUR VIEWERS HOW YOU CAME UP WITH THE PLOTLINE AND THE MESSAGE THAT YOU'RE SENDING WITH IT.

>> OH, YOU KNOW, IT'S TRICKY TO DESCRIBE HOW ONE COMES UPON A BOOK, BUT YOU KNOW, AROUND THE TIME I STARTED WRITING IT AT THE END OF 2018, JUST THE SENSE OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL A DISORDER OR UNRAVELING IN THE SORT OF MODERN WORLD WAS JUST LEAKING INTO THE PAGES.

THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS TRUMP AND THERE WAS BREXIT AND THERE WAS THE SURGE TO THE RIGHT ACROSS EUROPE IN THE WAKE OF THE SYRIAN REFUGEES, THERE WAS, OF COURSE, THAT CRISIS.

AND I'M NOT A POLITICAL NOVELIST, THAT'S NOT MY CALLING, I'M NOT SETTING OUT TO DELIVER, YOU KNOW, A SINGLE MESSAGE, I THINK THAT WOULD BE DISASTROUS IF YOU ARE A NOVELIST, BUT ALL THESE THINGS WERE LEAKING INTO THE STORY, AND I JUST ENDED UP WRITING A TALE ABOUT THE -- YOU KNOW, I SORT OF MARCHED A FEW STEPS FORWARD AND THOUGHT, OKAY, WHERE MIGHT ALL THIS LEAD TO?

AND IF IT LEADS TO THIS, WELL, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> AND IRELAND IS TYPICALLY A COUNTRY THAT HAS WELCOMED IMMIGRANTS, BUT WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED JUST WITHIN RECENT DAYS, THERE WAS A STABBING ON THURSDAY THAT TRIGGERED A BACKLASH AND RIOT, SOME SPECULATING THAT PERHAPS THIS ATTACKER WAS AN IMMIGRANT, AND THUS WE HAD SOME REACTION FROM FAR-RIGHT ELEMENTS IN THE COUNTRY.

WE KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF THE JURY SAID THE DECISION WAS MADE TO AWARD YOU THIS PRIZE ON SATURDAY.

I'M CURIOUS IF YOU THINK RECENT EVENTS FOLDED INTO THAT DECISION-MAKING.

>> YOU KNOW, THE INJURY SPOKE ABOUT THAT AND SAID IT DIDN'T, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A BOOK WHERE, WHEN I HAD FINISHED WRITING IT, THE WAR IN UKRAINE BROKE OUT VERY SOON AFTERWARDS, AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS YEAR, WE'RE SEEING THE CONFLICT IN GAZA.

I MELT A PALESTINIAN YESTERDAY, AND HE SAID, YOU TOLD OUR STORY.

A UKRAINIAN TWO NIGHTS AGO SAID, YOU TOLD OUR STORY.

THIS IS THE MAGIC OF FICTION.

SOMEHOW, THE CLOSEST YOU CAN GET TO UNIVERSAL TRUTHS, THE MORE NARRATIVES YOU CAN HOLD WITHIN THAT CONTAINER, YOU CAN TELL MULTIPLE STORIES WITHIN ONE NARRATIVE, AND SETTING IT IN DUBLIN ALLOWED ME TO CREATE SOMETHING WITH UNIVERSAL WEIGHT.

>> YOU ARE ONE OF TWO IRISH NOMINEES FOR THIS PRIZE.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT PERHAPS A NEW GOLDEN AGE OF IRISH LITERATURE THAT WE ARE WALKING INTO?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I HOPE SO, IT'S CERTAINLY EXTRAORDINARY.

I MEAN, THERE WERE FOUR IRISH WRITERS ON THE BOOKER LONG LIST, AND YOU YOU KNOW, THAT JUST SEEMS TO BE HIGHLY UNUSUAL.

I THINK THAT MANY OF US HAVE BENEFITED FROM SUPPORT FROM THE IRISH GOVERNMENT, WHICH HAS MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE FOR US TO BE ABLE TO BE FULL-TIME WRITERS.

IT'S NOT EASY AND FINANCIALLY CHALLENGING, SO, THAT'S BEEN A BIG HELP.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S -- WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE LITERATURE IS TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY, AND WE STILL HAVE THAT ENERGY THAT WRITERS LIKE BECKETT AND JOYCE HAVE JUST TRANSMITTED INTO THE CULTURE.

WE'RE STILL, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SO DEEPLY IN THE LANGUAGE, THEY'RE THERE WITH YOU EVERY DAY, WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT, AND WE ARE STILL PULLING DOWN OFF THAT GLORIOUS ENERGY.

>> IS THAT WHERE YOU DRAW YOUR INSPIRATION, FROM SOME OF THE COUNTRY'S BEST AUTHORS OF THE PAST?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, LOOK, I'M A WIDE READER, AND I'M DRAWING INSPIRATION FROM EVERYWHERE, BUT THERE WAS AN INTERESTING THING, WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK, I REALIZED THAT I HAD SORT OF COME UPON MY OWN -- I DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHAT REFERENCES TO HAVE FOR THIS BOOK THAT I WAS SORT OF PUSHING OUT INTO MY OWN SORT OF WORLD, THAT THIS BOOK WAS PERHAPS SAYING SOMETHING NEW AND I SORT OF HAD THAT FEELING WHILE I WAS WRITING IT.

>> SO, THE PRIZE MONEY IS ABOUT $60,000, I READ THAT YOU ARE GOING TO USE IT TO PAY YOUR MORTGAGE, ONCE AGAIN BRINGING YOU DOWN TO EARTH, THE REALITIES OF DAY-TO-DAY LIFE AND COMMITMENTS.

IS THAT WHERE THIS MONEY IS GOING?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE A TRACKER MORTGAGE, YOU KNOW, ECB RATES HAVE BEEN INCREASING FOR A YEAR AND A HALF, AND MY MORTGAGE USED TO BE VERY AFFORDABLE, YOU KNOW, FOR A WRITER, PERFECTLY AFFORDABLE AND IT'S GONE UP 75% AND IT'S UNAFFORDABLE.

HAS BEEN UNAFFORDABLE FOR ME.

SO, THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO SPEND THE MONEY ON.

IT'S VERY HUM DRUM, I'M SORRY TO SAY.

I'M NOT GOING TO BE BUYING LIE LIFESIZE HORSE LAMPS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

>> PERHAPS SOME OF THE ECONOMIC CHALLENGES YOU'RE FACING AND YOU'RE NOT ALONE SHOULD BE THE NEXT SUBJECT OF YOUR NEXT BOOK.

CONGRATULATIONS, AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US TODAY.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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