>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY".

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> WAS LESS THAN 60 DAYS UNTIL TRUMP TAKES OFFICE, ONE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR IS PREPARING TO BOTH WORK WITH HIM AND PROTECT AGAINST HIS POLICIES.

COLORADO GOVERNOR JARED POLIS JOINS THE SHOW.

>>> THEN -- >> I SWITCHED ON THE ANTI- THROWING DEVICE BECAUSE OF THE THREAT AROUND HERE.

>> AS RUSSIA MAKES GAINS IN EASTERN UKRAINE, NICK HAYDEN WALSH TAKES US INSIDE THE STRUGGLE TO HOLD THEM OFF.

>>> PLUS, HOW MUCH U.S. SUPPORT CAN KYIV REALLY COUNT ON UNDER TRUMP, AND WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS?

I SPEAK TO UKRAINE'S FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER -- >>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE KNOW THAT FOOD HAS PLAYED A BIG ROLE IN SURVIVAL IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

>> Reporter: AS AMERICANS PREPARE FOR THANKS GIVING, MICHEL MARTIN EXPLORES THE DIVERSE CITY OF AFRICAN- AMERICAN CUISINE WITH THE AWARD- WINNING CHEF, BRYANT TERRY.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

HERE OVERSEAS, EVERY DAY, THE WORLD WAKES UP TO A SLEW OF NEW TRUMP APPOINTEES, WHO APPEARED TO BE NOT ONLY AMERICA FIRST, BUT TRUMP FIRST.

THE UNITED STATES UNDER A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY, LOOKS TO BE RETREATING FROM THE MANTLE OF GLOBAL LEADERSHIP, THAT PIONEERED AFTER WORLD WAR II AND SEEMS TO BE HEADING LONG INTO A TRANSACTIONAL AND EVEN PUNITIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WORLD.

TAKE THE LATEST LATE-NIGHT SOCIAL MEDIA POST ABOUT SLAPPING 25% TARIFFS ON AMERICA'S CLOSEST AND BIGGEST TRADE PARTNERS AND NEIGHBORS, CANADA AND MEXICO.

WHILE THREATENING TO LOG EVEN HAVE YOUR TARIFFS ON RIVAL, CHINA.

LEAD EYES -- LEADERS AND ALLIES OF INDUSTRY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO WITH FOUR MORE YEARS OF TRUMP.

IN THE UNITED STATES, SOME GOVERNORS LED BY J.B. PRITZKER OF ILLINOIS AND JARED POLIS OF COLORADO ARE TRYING TO STRENGTHEN THEIR OWN STATE- LEVEL INSTITUTIONS TO PROTECT AGAINST THE PROMISED RETRIBUTION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

COLORADO GOVERNOR JARED POLIS IS JOINING ME NOW, FROM BOULDER.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, TELL ME, HOW YOU, ALONG WITH A GROUP OF OTHER GOVERNORS, PLAN TO DO PRECISELY WHAT I JUST SAID, TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A WAY OF, YOU KNOW, PROTECTING, AND CARRYING ON THROUGH YOUR OWN STATES' BEST INTEREST?

>> YOU KNOW, JUST AS INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCES ARE TRYING TO GUESS WHAT COMES NEXT, SO OUR AMERICAN GOVERNORS AND AMERICAN CITIZENS.

THOSE OF US ACROSS THE COUNTRY NOT KNOWING QUITE WHAT TO EXPECT, NOT KNOWING WHAT IS CAMPAIGN RHETORIC, WHAT IS THE PRESIDENT-ELECT ACTUALLY GOING TO DO.

SO, TOGETHER WITH GOVERNOR PRITZKER, WE HAVE PUT TOGETHER A GROUP, GOVERNORS SAFEGUARDING DEMOCRACY.

ABOUT HALF THE STATES HAVE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS.

THIS IS A NONPARTISAN ORGANIZATION, WE HAVE FORMER GOVERNORS ON OUR ADVISORY BOARD, WE WELCOME ANY SITTING REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS TO JOIN.

AS YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS A COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE STATES AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

FUNDAMENTALLY, A FEDERALIST SYSTEM.

THERE IS A LOT OF AUTONOMY AT THE STATE LEVEL, AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT LAWS ARE FOLLOWED AND OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS ARE PROTECTED, WHETHER THAT IS ELECTION INTEGRITY, INDEPENDENCE OF THE COURTS, AND MAKING SURE THAT NOTHING DONE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL IS DONE ILLEGALLY OR EXTRA-LEGALLY WITH NEGATIVE RAMIFICATIONS HERE IN THE STATES.

>> AND DO YOU THINK, GIVEN THE CHARACTER OF TRUMP -- AND HE IS NOT BASHFUL ABOUT PROMOTING IT -- THAT HE WANTS TO DO HIS THINGS HIS WAY, OR IT IS THE HIGHWAY FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

DO YOU THINK THAT EVEN ON YOUR OWN STATE-LEVEL AND LOCAL LEVEL, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT?

OR, WILL THERE BE PUSHBACK EITHER FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, OR FROM ALLIES, MAGA ALLIES IN YOUR OWN STATE, IF THERE IS SUCH THING?

>> WELL, THERE IS, YOU KNOW, CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY THAT RESIDES WITH THE STATES.

AND SO, JUST AS WE HAVE A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN WASHINGTON, ONE OF THE FRUSTRATIONS FOR THE STATES, FOR INSTANCE, IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS THE ENTITY THAT DOES IMMIGRATION POLICY, AND DETERMINED CITIZENSHIP, AS WELL AS IT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING OUR BORDERS, AND WE HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES A GOOD JOB OF THAT.

HE CERTAINLY HAS SAID HE WANTS TO.

AT THE STATE LEVEL, WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF AUTONOMY MOVING FORWARD.

ONE OF THE FRUSTRATING THINGS, AGAIN, WHEN YOU SEE HIM COME OUT WITH THINGS LIKE 25% TARIFFS, THAT IS DEVASTATING TO OUR ECONOMY.

OF COURSE, 25% TAX ON AMERICAN CONSUMERS ON MANY PRODUCTS WE BUY INCLUDING CLOTHES ON OUR BACK AND FOOD ON OUR THANKS GIVING TABLES, BUT ALSO REALLY DAMAGING TO AMERICAN MANUFACTURING, AS MANY OF THOSE PARTS USED IN AMERICAN MANUFACTURING ARE SOURCED INTERNATIONALLY AND WILL FORCE MANY OF THESE FACTORIES AND JOBS OVERSEAS.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE, LEGALLY, STATES CAN DO ABOUT TARIFFS.

WE CAN ENGAGE IN MEANINGFUL MEMORANDUMS OF UNDERSTANDING AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AND STATES, IF WE DO.

BUT, WHEN IT COMES TO TRADE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS THE EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY AROUND TRADE CONDITIONS AND TARIFFS, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> IT APPEARS TO US THAT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT TARIFFS AGAINST MEXICO AND AGAINST CANADA, AT LEAST BY THE WORDS TRUMP USED, SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

IT BASICALLY APPEARED TO BE POLITICAL.

IT WAS ABOUT, HE SAID, DRUGS, LIKE FENTANYL, OR MIGRATION, AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS BEHIND SOME OF THESE TARIFFS?

IS IT ECONOMIC?

IS IT CORDIAL?

WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL, LOOK, THE GUY INCORRECTLY LIKES TARIFFS.

HE DOESN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE A TAX ON AMERICAN CONSUMERS, AS OPPOSED TO FOREIGN PRODUCERS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT TRADE.

TRADE, INHERENTLY, MAKES BOTH PARTIES BETTER OFF, WHEN THEY ENGAGE IN A CONSENSUAL TRANSACTION.

WHEN WE BUY OUR AVOCADOS, AND TOMATOES, AND STRAWBERRIES, AND RASPBERRIES FROM MEXICO, AMERICAN CONSUMERS, -- PARTICULARLY INTO WINTER AND IT IS SNOWING IN COLORADO -- WE DON'T GROW THESE THINGS HERE, WE LOVE HAVING THEM AVAILABLE AT LOW COST AND HIGH QUALITY AT OUR GROCERY STORES.

WINDOWS ALL INCREASE IN PRICE BY 25%, IT REALLY MAKES IT HARDER TO AFFORD TO LIVE THE LIFESTYLE AMERICANS WANT TO LIVE.

SO AGAIN, PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP ONCE CERTAIN THINGS, HE WANTS BETTER SECURITY AROUND FENTANYL.

WHO DOESN'T?

BETTER BORDER SECURITY.

WHO DOESN'T?

YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE IS AN OFFRAMP, THERE.

WE HOPE THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO BARREL FORWARD ON TARIFFS SO HARD THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO FIND AN OFFRAMP, BUT IN ALL HONESTY, AGAIN, HE DID RUN ON THIS.

I DON'T THINK HE IS EAGER TO FIND AN OFFRAMP.

BUT, FOR THE SAKE OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY AND THE MEXICAN AND CANADIAN ECONOMY -- AND I WOULD ADD THERE ARE RAMIFICATIONS FOR EUROPE, AS WELL, WITH THE TRADE WAR, RAMIFICATIONS FOR THE EUROPEAN ECONOMY -- I TRULY HOPE WE CAN FIND AN OFFRAMP TO PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP AND MOVE BACK TO ESTABLISHING MORE OPEN MARKETS FOR NATIVE AMERICAN, GROWN AMERICAN PRODUCT.

>> AS YOU SAID, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THOSE PARTICULAR OFFERINGS AND YES, EUROPE IS INCREDIBLY WORRIED ABOUT A WHOLE SLEW OF TARIFFS AND THE IDEA OF PROTECTIONISM, WHICH IS HIS FUNDAMENTAL PEACE, WHEN IT COMES TO TRADE.

NOW, YOU HAVE DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS A GLASS HALF-FULL KIND OF GUY, AS AN OPTIMIST, AND THEREFORE YOU HAVE DONE, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE THE RIGHT THING, MAYBE NOT, AND YOU HAVE OFFERED AN OLIVE BRANCH TO TRY TO WORK WITH TRUMP ON ISSUES THAT YOU CAN WORK WITH HIM ON.

SENSIBLE.

BUT, I WANT TO ASK YOU, HOW CAN YOU -- ALREADY, HIS BORDER CZAR- ELECT IS THREATENING YOUR OWN DENVER MAYOR, BECAUSE OF IMMIGRATION POLICIES IN COLORADO.

HE IS BASICALLY SAYING, I WILL PUT HIM IN JAIL IF HE DOESN'T GET RID OF THE SO-CALLED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, OR JAIL THEM.

HOUSE THAT SORT OF A WORKING TOGETHER KIND OF ATTITUDE?

>> WELL, LOOK, I'M NOT GOING TO GET BETWEEN THE DENVER MAYOR AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT AGAIN, LOOKING AT THE GLASS AS HALF-FULL, DO WE WANT MORE FEDERAL ASSISTANCE IN KEEPING OUR COMMUNITIES SAFE IN GOING AFTER BOTH IMMIGRANTS AS WELL AS AMERICANS WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIME?

ABSOLUTELY.

WE WELCOME THAT.

IF THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO FIND, APPREHEND, PROSECUTE, AND DEPORT, CRIMINALS WHO WERE BORN IN OTHER COUNTRIES AND HAVE COME HERE TO COMMIT CRIMES, WE WELCOME THAT.

WE WELCOME THAT.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS A MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF CRIME THAT IS COMMITTED BY AMERICANS WHO WERE BORN HERE AND LIVE HERE, WE WELCOME HELP FROM THE FBI ON THAT, AS WELL.

AGAIN, WE SAY WE WANT TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITIES SAFER, THAT IS OUR MAIN GOAL.

BUT, WHEN IT COMES TO GOING AFTER HARD-WORKING, DE FACTO AMERICAN FAMILIES WHO ARE A CRITICAL PART OF OUR ECONOMY, WHETHER IT IS IN THE AGRICULTURE SECTOR, THE CONSTRUCTION SECTOR, WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING WITHIN OUR LEGAL MEANS TO PROTECT OUR ECONOMY AND PROSPERITY, TO PUSHBACK.

>> I JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS BECAUSE I WAS LOOKING FOR IT, I WANT TO PLAY THIS PIECE FROM HOMAN, WHO IS THE DESIGNATED BORDER CZAR.

>> ME AND THE DENVER MAYOR, WE AGREE ON ONE THING, HE IS WILLING TO GO TO JAIL, I AM WILLING TO PUT HIM IN JAIL, BECAUSE THERE IS A STATUTE, TITLE 896 OF UNITED STATES CODE 1324 TRIPLE I AND WHAT IT SAYS, IT IS A FELONY IF YOU KNOWINGLY HARBOR AND CONCEAL ILLEGAL ALIEN FROM IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES, AND THERE IS ALSO A FELONY TO IMPEDE A FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

SO, IF HE DOESN'T WANT TO HELP, THAT IS FINE, HE CAN GET OUT OF THE WAY.

>> WE KIND OF DISCUSSED THIS ISSUE, BUT DO YOU THINK YOUR STATE IS HELPING TO CONCEAL AND HIDE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED, YOU KNOW, CRIMES?

>> WELL, LOOK, IF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION COMES IN AND STARTS ARRESTING AND JAILING DULY ELECTED MAYORS IN CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT WILL LEAD TO MORE DIVISION, RATHER THAN LESS DIVISION, AND FRANKLY, IT WILL MAKE IT HARDER TO SECURE THE BORDER AND FIX OUR BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

SO AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THE BORDER CZAR -- AND I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HIS AUTHORITY IS -- BUT, I DON'T THINK IT INVOLVES ARRESTING MAYORS OR CITY COUNCIL PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH HIM.

AND THAT IS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY.

SO, I AM HOPEFUL AGAIN THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT BETTER ANGELS PREVAIL AND HE TRIES TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AROUND AN ISSUE WHERE THERE IS A LOT OF COMMON SENSE.

WE ALL WANT TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITIES SAFER, APPREHEND AND DEPORT ANY IMMIGRANTS WHO COMMIT CRIMES, WHO ARE A DANGER TO OUR COMMUNITY, AND OF COURSE WE NEED BETTER BORDER SECURITY TO MAKE SURE WE CAN STOP THE DEADLY FLOW OF FENTANYL INTO OUR COUNTRY.

THESE ARE COMMONSENSE THINGS THAT I'M SURE NEARLY AFRICAN- AMERICAN AGREES ON.

WHEN IT COMES TO ARRESTING CITY OFFICIALS BECAUSE OF THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS, THAT IS VERY UN-AMERICAN AND THAT IS DANGEROUS TO THE CONSTITUTION OF OUR COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU HAVE DETECTED A POLITICAL BETTER ANGEL?

I MEAN, I'M BEING SERIOUS, BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW HOW A BLUE STATE, A DEMOCRATIC STATE LIKE YOURS, WHO STAYED BLUE DESPITE THE ODDS OF WHAT WAS GOING AROUND AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND EVEN GOT BLUER, I THINK.

WHERE IS THE BETTER ANGEL THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO ATTACH YOURSELF TO?

>> TO BE CLEAR, I VOTED FOR KAMALA HARRIS AND CAMPAIGNED FOR HER HARD, I WISH THAT SHE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SHE WASN'T.

DONALD TRUMP WON THE ELECTION FAIR AND SQUARE, HE WILL BE OUR PRESIDENT FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS AND OF COURSE WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO WORK WITH HIM WHERE WE CAN, TO MAKE PEOPLE IN OUR STATES BETTER, MORE PROSPEROUS, MORE SUCCESSFUL, AND TO IMPROVE AMERICA'S STANDING ABROAD.

HE WILL BE PRESIDENT FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS AND WE NEED TO MAKE THE BEST WE CAN OF THE SITUATION.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU, NOW THAT THE ELECTION IS, AS YOU SAY, YOU VOTED FOR KAMALA HARRIS, SHE DIDN'T WIN, THE MARGIN OF THE POPULAR VOTE IS NOT AS MASSIVE AS TRUMP TRIED TO PROCLAIM ON THE EARLY DAYS.

BUT, NONETHELESS, THERE IS A TRIFECTA IN WASHINGTON, AND HE IS THE DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT.

HOW DID YOUR STATE MANAGED TO OUTPERFORM MANY OTHER DEMOCRATIC LEANING STATES?

WHAT DID YOU DO?

HOW DID YOU APPEAL TO PEOPLE WHO WERE TALKING ABOUT THE COST OF LIVING, TO TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THESE SORT OF CULTURE WARS, AND SORT OF REBELLED AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, IN SO MANY OTHER PARTS?

>> WELL, I HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GOVERN WITH DEMOCRATIC MAJORITIES IN BOTH CHAMBERS OF OUR LEGISLATURE HERE IN COLORADO AND REALLY FROM THE VERY START, WE FOCUSED ON REDUCING COSTS AND SAVING PEOPLE MONEY.

WE REDUCED INCOME TAX THREE TIMES, REDUCED SALES TAX FROM EVERYDAY ITEMS, ESPECIALLY FOR PARENTS, LIKE FOR ITEMS LIKE DIAPERS AND BABY FORMULA.

WE ESTABLISHED UNIVERSAL FREE PRESCHOOL AND KINDERGARTEN.

WHEN I CAME IN AS GOVERNOR, PARENTS HAD TO PAY FOR FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.

PRIEST SCHOOL FOR FOUR-YEAR- OLDS WAS VERY EXPENSIVE.

WE MADE BOTH OF THOSE FREE AND SAFE FAMILIES AND $6000 A YEAR.

REALLY, JUST SAYING, LOOK, WE GET IT, COSTS HAVE GONE UP.

HOW CAN WE BE EFFECTIVE, AS A STATE, AS REDUCING YOUR COSTS, SO THAT YOU HAVE MORE MONEY LEFT OVER TO DO THE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO?

WHETHER IT IS BY A NEW HOME, WHETHER IT IS A FOR YOUR MONTHLY PAYMENTS, WHETHER IT IS GO ON VACATION, WHETHER IT IS SAVED FOR COLLEGE.

AGAIN, IT IS A LOT OF HARD WORK, BUT PEOPLE KNOW WE ARE WORKING FOR THEM, AND THAT IS THE MESSAGE AND POLICIES WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE SIX YEARS I HAVE HAD THE HONOR TO BE GOVERNOR OF THIS GREAT STATE.

>> IF YOU TRANSPOSE THAT TO THE WIDER DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHICH IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET ITSELF OUT OF THIS WILDERNESS, HOW THEY LOST OUT ON YOUNG VOTERS, WORKING-CLASS VOTERS, EVEN NONWHITE VOTERS, TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC COALITIONS, WHAT MUST THE PARTY DO, GIVEN THE FACT THAT BY ALL ACCOUNTS, YES, INDIVIDUALLY, PEOPLE WERE HURTING ON COST OF LIVING, BUT IN THE MACRO LEVEL, THE ECONOMY WAS DOING MUCH BETTER THAN WHEN TRUMP LEFT OFFICE.

HUGE NUMBERS OF JOBS, MILLIONS OF NEW JOBS WERE CREATED.

INFLATION WAS SLASHED BY AT LEAST TWO THIRDS.

WHAT'S MORE HAS TO BE DONE?

WHAT FAILED, THERE?

>> WELL, I THINK REALLY FOCUSING ON WHAT BRINGS US TOGETHER, RATHER THAN WHAT SEPARATES US.

LOOK, IT IS A STRONG ECONOMY, I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD WITH MESSAGING IS THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT JOBS, AND WE ALL LIKE JOBS, BUT THE TRUTH IS, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS VERY LOW IN OUR COUNTRY, PEOPLE HAVE JOBS.

BUT, THE FRUSTRATION THEY FEEL IS THEIR WAGES HAVEN'T KEPT UP WITH HER COSTS, WHETHER THAT IS HOUSING, WHETHER THAT IS HEALTHCARE, WHETHER THAT IS GROCERIES AT THE STORE, SO YOU REALLY NEED TO FOCUS THE AGENDA AROUND REDUCING COSTS.

ON HOUSING, WE REMOVED BARRIERS THAT PREVENTED HOUSING FROM BEING BUILT.

WE EXPEDITED APPROVAL PROCESS FOR NEW PERMITS.

WE HAVE DONE ZONING REFORMS THAT ALLOW MORE HOMES TO BE BUILT CLOSER TO JOB CENTERS AT WORK.

ON HEALTHCARE, WE ESTABLISHED REINSURANCE AND BROUGHT DOWN RATES 20%, 30% IN OUR HEALTHCARE EXCHANGE SO MORE PEOPLE CAN AFFORD COVERAGE.

I MENTIONED WE REDUCED INCOME TAX THREE TIMES, WE HAVE REDUCED SALES TAX FOR MANY ESSENTIAL ITEMS.

SO AGAIN, THESE ARE REAL-LIFE SOLUTIONS THAT MATTER TO PEOPLE AND WE HAVE MATCHED THAT WITH THE PAIN POINT PEOPLE FEEL WHICH IS THAT, LOOK, I MAY HAVE A JOB AND I MAY HAVE THAT SECURITY THERE, OR I MAY EVEN HAVE A BETTER JOB FOR A RAISE, BUT WHAT GOOD IS THAT WHEN MY EXPENSES HAVE GONE UP FASTER THAN MY INCOME?

WE NEED TO REVERSE THAT TREND AND THAT IS A LOT OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO HERE IN COLORADO AND I HOPE THAT BOTH PARTIES TO UNDERTAKE THIS NATIONALLY BECAUSE WE NEED IT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT A CONTROVERSY YOU KICKED UP IN THIS SERIES OF SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS ABOUT DEALING WITH RFK JR., WHO IS BEING NOMINATED TO LEAD THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES.

YOU WROTE, "I AM EXCITED BY THE NEWS THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WOULD APPOINT HIM TO THAT DEPARTMENT.

HE HELPED US DEFEAT VACCINE MANDATES IN COLORADO IN 2019 AND WILL HELP MAKE AMERICA HEALTHY AGAIN BY SHAKING UP HHS AND FDA."

SO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO THROUGH THE LITANY OF THE DAMAGE, THE DESTRUCTIVE, THE DISINFORMATION SPREAD BY RFK JR., AND THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES, AND BEAR DUMPING, AND I DON'T KNOW WHATEVER ELSE, BUT YOUR OWN DENVER POST HAS SAID, EVEN IF POSTED PRAISE TRUMPS CABINET PICKS, WHAT DOES HE EXPECT TO GET?

WILL TRUMP FORGET THE BAD BLOOD BETWEEN THEM?

JUST LAST MONTH, THE FORMER PRESIDENT CALLED POLIS A WEAK, INEFFECTIVE, COWARDLY, PATHETIC FRAUD.

I MEAN, HONESTLY, THAT IS THE LEVEL OF DIALOGUE THAT IS GOING ON, AND YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK WITH HIM?

>> WELL, THE PRESIDENT MAKES RUDE COMMENTS, OFTEN.

HE DOES THAT WITH BOTH POLITICAL ALLIES AND THOSE HE IS OPPOSED TO.

THAT IS WHO HE IS.

IT IS, SADLY, IN MY OPINION, WHO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ELECTED.

HE WILL BE PRESIDENT THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

AGAIN, AS A STATE, I THINK THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT RFK IN PARTICULAR, THE LAST TIME DONALD TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT, HE APPOINTED A PHARMACEUTICAL LOBBYIST AS HEAD OF THIS AGENCY, HEAD OF HUMAN SERVICES, A FELLOW BY THE NAME OF ALEC CESAR, BASICALLY A FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE.

WHILE RFK HAS ABSOLUTELY SAID MANY THINGS THAT ARE FALSE, DEMONSTRABLY, THAT ARE NOT FACTUAL, HE HAS SHOWN, AND IS SHOWING, A WILLINGNESS TO TAKE ON THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY IN WAYS THAT TRUMP'S PREVIOUS APPOINTMENT HAVE NOT.

SO AGAIN, IT IS A MATTER OF ENCOURAGING THOSE BETTER ANGELS.

I THINK WE CAN GET A BETTER RESULT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, OUT OF THE FDA, IF WE HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO WORK WITH SOMEONE WHO STARTS IN A CRITICAL PLACE, WITH REGARD TO THE PHARMACEUTICAL/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

AND FIND WAYS TO WORK TOGETHER.

I WILL GIVE YOU ONE SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, COLORADO HAS APPLIED FOR AT HHS, THE ABILITY TO IMPORT PRESCRIPTION DRUGS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, SPECIFICALLY CANADA, AT A MUCH LOWER COST.

THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY WITH TIES TO THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY WOULD EVER APPROVE THAT.

AM I HOPEFUL THAT RFK MIGHT APPROVE THAT?

I AM.

I HOPE I'M NOT BEING NAOVE, BUT HE SAID AS MUCH WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, AND HOPEFUL WE CAN WORK WITH HIM TO PROVIDE LOWER COST PRESCRIPTION DRUGS TO THE PEOPLE OF OUR STATE.

>> GOVERNOR POLIS OF COLORADO, THANK YOU DOES SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

REALLY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, TO UKRAINE, WHERE THE FIGHTING STEPS UP, AS RUSSIA MAKES ADVANCES IN THE EAST.

THE OUTLOOK SEEMS BLEAK FOR ONE UNIT THAT IS SO LOW ON INFANTRY, IT IS RESORTING TO DRONES INSTEAD.

NOW, A WARNING SUMMER SOME VIDEO IN THIS REPORT IS GRAPHIC.

>> Reporter: THEY ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME AND SPACE.

NIGHT IS KILLING TIME FOR DRONES.

THE IS SWITCHED ON THE ANTI- DRONE DEVICE BECAUSE OF THE THREAT AROUND IT.

THIS UKRAINIAN DRONE UNIT OF JUST TWO, HUNTING, BUT ALSO HUNTED.

>> I THINK I HEAR A DRONE COME INSIDE.

INSIDE.

>> Reporter: IS AT THE RUSSIAN DRONE?

IS IT ONE OF THEIRS?

THEY DON'T KNOW, BUT THEY HAVE TO CARRY ON.

DOGS ARE NOT FRIENDS.

THERE ARE HEAT SIGNALS CAN GIVE THEIR LAUNCH SPOT AWAY.

TO RUSSIA'S THERMAL CAMERAS, THEY CLOSE IN ON THE TARGET, A HOUSE.

JAMMING HITS THE SIGNAL, BUT THEY FIRE, ANYWAY.

RUSSIA ADVANCING TOO FAST, HERE.

IN THE EAST, TO MISS ANY CHANCES.

THE SKYLINE SPEAKS OF HOW HE IS IN RUSSIA'S CROSSHAIRS.

UKRAINE IS SHORT OF MANPOWER BUT IT IS SO BAD HERE, THEY SAY THEY MUST RELY ON DRONES, NOT INFANTRY, TO SLOW A BRAZEN RUSSIAN DAYLIGHT ASSAULT LIKE THIS ONE.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: WATCH HOW THE FIRST RUSSIAN TANK HERE IS RELENTLESS.

A TRUMP PRESIDENCY, AND POSSIBLE PEACE TALKS LOOM.

DO THEY EVEN HAVE TIME FOR THAT, HERE?

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: TALK HERE IS ABNORMALLY NEGATIVE WITH COSTLY AND CHAOTIC RETREAT ON FILM.

LIKE THESE UKRAINIANS HIT, WHEN THEY ARE MISTAKENLY TOLD THIS BUILDING DIDN'T HAVE ANY RUSSIANS IN IT.

THIS HOUSE HAS AN ENCIRCLED UKRAINIAN DRONE UNIT WITHOUT ANY INFANTRY TO HELP FIGHT ADVANCING RUSSIANS, SO THEY SENT A DRONE TO FLY JUST 30 METERS ACROSS THE STREET.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] [ SPEAKING IN A NON- ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: RUSSIAN TROOPS SAVAGE IN THE ASSAULT.

THIS FOOTAGE SHOWS A LOCAL ORANGE WHO WAS SHOWING UKRAINIANS WHERE RUSSIANS ARE HIDING.

THEY ARE LET OUT.

AND SHOT, WHILE FACEDOWN.

PART OF A PATTERN OF SURRENDERING UKRAINIANS EXECUTED, THE SAME PROSECUTORS INVESTIGATING THIS INCIDENT A FORTNIGHT AGO.

ACROSS KYIV'S SITES, BOMBED, BUT SO FAR, SPARED RUSSIA'S TRADEMARK DEVASTATION.

IT IS POSSIBLE, SOME SAY, MOSCOW IS MOVING SO FAST, IT THINKS IT WILL SPEND THE WINTER HERE.

>> NICK HAYDEN WASH REPORTING OUTSIDE AND ACROSS EASTERN UKRAINE.

AND RUSSIA HAS BEEN MAKING THOSE GAINS IN THE EAST AT THE FASTEST RATE SINCE THE EARLIEST MONTHS OF THE WAR.

IT IS A MAKE OR BREAK MOMENT FOR UKRAINE.

THE COUNTRY'S LEADERS ARE ALWAYS LOOKING TO SEE HOW TRUMP WILL DELIVER ON HIS VOW TO END IT.

FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER IS JOINING ME NOW FROM KYIV.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, MINISTER.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT LAST HORRIBLE SCENE FROM NICK'S REPORTING, WHERE DRONES SHOWED WHAT LOOKED TO BE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS ON THE GROUND, BASICALLY EXECUTING AT POINT BLANK RANGE, SURRENDERING UKRAINIAN FORCES?

>> WELL, THAT IS NOT THE FIRST TIME, UNFORTUNATELY, FAR FROM THE FIRST TIME.

THAT IS HAPPENING, UNFORTUNATELY, QUITE REGULARLY AND IT HAS ALL BEEN RECORDED AND FLAGGED TO INTERNATIONAL COURTS AND SO ON.

BUT, TO THIS DAY, IT STILL CONTINUES.

GENERALLY, WE NEED TO REMEMBER -- AND WE HAD A FEW DISCUSSIONS OVER THE LAST YEAR WITH YOU -- ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS WAR IS TOO MUCH ON THE GROUND AND TOO MUCH RELYING ON INFANTRY.

THAT IS NOT THE MODERN WAR WHICH UKRAINE NEEDED TO HAVE.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT, IS THE LACK OF LONG-RANGE FIREPOWER, AND A LACK OF THE CASE.

WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THIS FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS, AND UNFORTUNATELY, AS WE CAN SEE RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, INFANTRY WARS ARE EXTREMELY HIGH CASUALTY.

THEY ARE VERY, VERY TRAGIC, AND IN ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU -- I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU, THEN, BECAUSE OF THAT, THE RECON LEADER OF THAT PLATOON THERE TOLD OUR CORRESPONDENT THAT, YOU KNOW, I LOVE MY JOB, BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE COUNTRY DOESN'T LOVE THIS JOB AND WE NEED MORE PEOPLE.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE.

I DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE, SO WE HAVE TO RESORT TO DRONES.

WHAT IS -- I MEAN, THAT -- YOUR COUNTRY IS AT A BIT OF A BIND IN TERMS OF MOBILIZATION AND TROOPS, RIGHT?

>> AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO, AS LONG AS WE ARE RELYING ON THE MAIN CENTRAL GRAVITY FOR THIS WAR, IS CENTRAL TROOPS.

THAT IS NOT THE WAR WHICH WE CONSIDER TO BE PERMANENT DURING ALL OF THESE PERIODS OF TIME.

WE HAVE BEEN SAYING, WE NEED LONG-RANGE WEAPONS.

WE NEED F-16.

WE NEED THE ROCKETS.

WE NEED A PERMISSION TO STRIKE.

EVERY TIME WHEN WE ARE GOING TO GO BACK WITH YOU, OR ON ANY OTHER PROGRAMS, A QUESTION ON WHY INFANTRY WAR IS SO UNFAVORABLE TO UKRAINE, IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE UNFAVORABLE, BECAUSE THIS IS -- THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF OPERATIONS IS SUPPOSED TO BE MORE OF THE STRIKING IN A DEEP, AND DESTROYING THE ABILITY FOR RUSSIANS TO APPROACH TO THE FRONT LINE, IN THAT SORT OF READY CONDITION AND A CONDITION READY TO FIGHT WITH OUR TROOPS.

THAT IS HOW ANY NATO GENERAL WOULD FIGHT THE WAR.

UKRAINE HAS LOOKED AT THIS PARADIGM OF THE CONSTANT INFANTRY, INFANTRY BATTLE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO KIND OF RESOLVE WITH OUR PARTNERS, FOR YEARS AND YEARS, AND WE ARE STILL THERE.

SO, ALL OF THESE PICTURES, AND ALL OF THESE SPECIFIC SITUATIONS.

>> LET ME THEN ASK YOU, THE LAST TIME I SPOKE WITH YOU, IT WAS BEFORE PRESIDENT BIDEN I CHANGE THE POLICY ON THE USE OF ATTACK GUNS AND BEFORE THE BRITS HAD ANNOUNCED THAT THE STORM SHADOWS -- THESE ARE THE LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY -- COULD BE USED AGAINST RUSSIAN TARGETS.

HAS IT MADE A DIFFERENCE, NOW THAT THEY CAN?

>> IT IS GOING TO, OF COURSE -- AND IT HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE ALREADY BECAUSE WE USE THOSE WEAPONS FOR HIGH-VALUE TARGETS, THE COMMODITY CONTROL CENTERS, LOGISTICAL CONTROL CENTERS, AND THE OPERATIONS OF THE TROOPS IN THEIR LARGE GROUPS, AND ALSO FOR PIRATE SUPPORT AND SO ON.

SO, THAT IS DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED AND IT HAS A MASSIVE EFFECT.

LIKE I SAID, THAT AFFECT ON RUSSIA TO SEND TROOPS TO THE FRONT LINE.

SO, THE WHOLE MILITARY DOCTRINE OF TODAY'S WARS, AND THAT INCLUDES -- THAT GOES THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE NATO PHILOSOPHY -- IS TO STRIKE AS DEEP AS YOU CAN, AND IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE ABILITY OR ARRIVE IN THE FRONT LINE IN THE MOST READY CONDITION AND THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

OF COURSE, WE JUST STARTED DOING THAT, WE STILL NEED TO RAMP UP, WE STILL NEED TO HAVE A BETTER ABILITY TO DO THAT.

BUT OF COURSE, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY FOR ANY WAR TO BE AT LEAST MODERATELY SUCCESSFUL.

THE WARS WHICH ARE CLASHING ON THE FRONT, LIKE INFANTRY AGAINST INFANTRY, IS GOING TO BE TRAGIC FOR BOTH PARTIES, FOR BOTH SIDES.

RUSSIA HAS THAT, WE ARE NOT, THAT IS HOW IT GOES RIGHT NOW.

>> HERE IS AN EXPERT FROM THE ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE, THE THINK TANK HERE IN THE UK SAID JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, "UKRAINE IS RAPIDLY APPROACHING A POINT WHERE IF IT DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MANPOWER ISSUE, THEN IT WILL STRUGGLE TO DEFEND THE LENGTH OF THE FRONT.

AND SO, THE COLLAPSE IN ITS FIGHTING POSITIONS WILL ACCELERATE."

HOW DO YOU FIX THIS?

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

AND HOW YOU FIX THAT PROBLEM?

>> IF WE ARE CONSIDERING NOT CHANGING THE PARADIGM, YES, I DO AGREE WITH THAT AND UKRAINE ADDRESSES THIS.

BUT ALSO, UKRAINE RAMPS UP DRAMATICALLY THE DRONE PRODUCTION BECAUSE DRONES ARE ACTUALLY WHAT HELPS UKRAINE TO KEEP THE ENEMY AWAY FROM THE FRONT.

OF COURSE, DRONES ALSO REQUIRE PEOPLE, BUT LAST -- AND THIS IS A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT JOKE IN MANY CASES -- THESE LONG-RANGE DRONES AND SO ON.

BUT, WE ARE ALSO -- I, MYSELF, WAS WRITING TO THE SAME THINK TANK RECENTLY AND I AM ARGUING THAT IN ORDER TO KEEP THE ENEMY AWAY, WE NEVER SHOULD FORGET THE LONG-RANGE FIREPOWER, AND THE AIRPOWER AS THE KEY TO ANY VICTORY, ANY SUCCESS.

SO, WE, AGAIN, WE CANNOT FOCUS JUST ON THE INFANTRY.

THAT WOULD BE A HUGE AND HISTORICAL MISTAKE.

>> YEAH, SO, YOU KNOW, THE OTHERS -- PS, TO THE ATTACKERS USED -- WAS THEN, PUTIN SENT A VERY SOPHISTICATED, NEW, EXPERIMENTAL MISSILE INTO KYIV, I THINK.

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS NUCLEAR CAPABLE -- TO CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG -- BUT, IS -- YOU KNOW, IS THERE -- I MEAN, YOU COULD FACE MORE OF THAT.

NOT ONLY THAT -- AND I WILL JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE -- BECAUSE PUTIN THEN ADJUSTED THE SO-CALLED NUCLEAR DOCTRINE.

LET ME PLAY WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THAT A FEW DAYS AGO.

>> Translator: WE CONSIDER OURSELVES ENTITLED TO USE OUR WEAPONS AGAINST THE MILITARY OBJECTS OF THOSE COUNTRIES THAT ALLOW THEIR WEAPONS TO BE USED AGAINST OUR OBJECTS.

AND IN THE EVENT OF AN ESCALATION OF AGGRESSIVE ACTIONS, WE WILL RESPOND JUST AS DECISIVELY, AND IN KIND.

>> NOW, HOW DO YOU READ ALL OF THAT?

THIS IS A REALLY ESCALATING RHETORIC AND IN SOME CASES, USE OF FIREPOWER.

>> SO, FIRST, WE HAD ROCKETS FROM RUSSIA, WHICH ARE TECHNICALLY CAPABLE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, FROM THE FIRST MONTHS OF THE WAR, SO THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NEW WITH THAT.

WE HAVE THOSE ALL THE TIME BECAUSE THE DIFFERENT NUCLEAR WARHEADS THAT CAN BE PUT INTO DIFFERENT ROCKETS, AND SOMETIMES, THEY USE WITH REGULAR WARHEADS -- WELL, COULD BE USED WITH NUCLEAR.

SO, WE HAVE THOSE ALL THE TIME.

WE ALSO HAVE THE ONES PRIMARILY USED WITH NUCLEAR, BUT WITHOUT THE WARHEAD, ALSO.

ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE WAR.

SO, THERE IS NOTHING YOU WITH THIS.

WHAT IS NEW, IS THEY SENT SOMETHING NEW, AND THEY ADVERTISED IT QUITE A LOT, AND MADE A BIG INFORMATION PAIN OUT OF THAT.

IN ORDER TO BITTERLY -- LITERALLY SENT SHOCKWAVES AROUND THE WORLD, RUSSIA IS SENDING AN INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILE.

FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NO POINT IN SENDING INTERCONTINENTAL TO UKRAINE, WHICH IS A NEIGHBOR OF RUSSIA.

SECONDLY, THERE HASN'T BEEN A WARHEAD, OBVIOUSLY, AT ALL.

AND IT STRUCK THE CENTRAL AND HE BROUGHT IN CENTRAL UKRAINE, AND HASN'T DONE SUBSTANTIAL DAMAGE, BUT THE VIDEO THERE SHOWS THE ROCKETS FLYING, WITH THE REGULAR WARHEADS AT THE SAME TIME.

WE DO NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT PUTIN IS TRYING TO ESCALATE, THEY ARE TRYING TO SCARE THE WEST FROM SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

THE FACT THAT UKRAINE SHOULD SHOOT IN RUSSIAN TERRITORY IF IT WANTS TO SERIOUSLY DEFEND ITSELF, IT IS ABSOLUTELY BASIC LOGIC FOR ANY WAR FIGHTING.

AND ANY SINGLE GENERAL FROM ANY ARMY WILL NEVER TELL YOU IT IS POSSIBLE TO DEFEND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO SHOOT BACK ON THE ANNIVERSARY TERRITORY.

IT IS JUST VERY, VERY BASIC LOGIC.

AND OF COURSE, UNTIL RECENTLY, THAT WASN'T POSSIBLE AND RUSSIA WAS TRYING TO DO WHATEVER IT CAN IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE WEST FROM ALLOWING UKRAINE TO DO SO, AND THEN FINALLY ALLOWED AND NOW THEY ARE TRYING TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE VERY ANGRY AND THEY ARE TRYING TO ESCALATE.

AND IN FACT, LIKE 99% OF WHAT HAPPENED WAS JUST PURE INFORMATION.

>> OKAY, WELL, MAYBE ALSO PART OF THIS IS POSTURING AHEAD OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE MIGHT BE SOME CHANGE IN DIRECTION, AFTER JANUARY 2nd, RATHER THE 20th, WHEN TRUMP COMES IN.

SO, YOU TOLD ME LAST TIME, THAT IT IS AN EXISTENTIAL FIGHT FOR UKRAINE.

IT IS NOT ABOUT A COUPLE VILLAGES, OR A COUPLE OF TOWNS.

IT IS ABOUT WHAT UKRAINE REMAINS, WHAT KIND OF UKRAINE REMAINS.

AND SO, FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU KNOW OF KEITH KELLOGG, WHO TRUMP HAS JUST NOMINATED AS SPECIAL ENVOY FOR UKRAINE AND RUSSIA?

SO, I AM QUOTING NOW FROM REUTERS -- "KELLOGG'S PLAN FOR ENDING THE WAR, WHICH BEGAN WHEN RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE IN SOVEREIGN TERRITORY, INVOLVES FREEZING THE BATTLE LINES OF THEIR PREVAILING LOCATIONS AND FORCING BOTH KYIV AND MOSCOW TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE."

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> WELL, WE WILL SEE HOW IT UNFOLDS.

BECAUSE AGAIN, THESE WORDS ARE THE WORDS OF SOME OTHER PERSON ABOUT HIM.

SO, WE NEED TO SEE WHAT THEY SAY, WE NEED TO SEE WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS.

AND OF COURSE, RUSSIA IS PREPARING ITSELF AND THAT IS WHY THEY RAMP UP THE EFFORT, THERE.

RIGHT NOW, THEY ARE APPLYING NUMEROUS EFFORTS AND SUSTAINING NUMEROUS CASUALTIES IN ORDER TO GET MORE TERRITORY, PARTICULARLY TO BUILD A POSITION, INCLUDING AN INFORMATION SPACE, OF POSITIONAL STRENGTH.

AND THAT IS WHY EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA GETTING THE UPPER HAND, AND THEY ARE WINNING, PROGRESSING, SO ON, SO ON.

THEY ARE DOING THIS SPECIFICALLY BEFORE TRUMP WOULD COME IN AS PRESIDENT, AND POTENTIALLY, HE MAY TRY TO SETTLE IT, SOMEHOW.

IF UKRAINE IS GOING TO BE TOLD OR SUGGESTED, YOU KNOW, TO FREEZE THE LINE, THE WHOLE QUESTION WOULD BE, FIRST OF ALL, FROZEN CONFLICT IS NOT THE END OF THE WAR.

SO, IF TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS TO END THE WAR, WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT SORT OF SUGGESTED PLAN.

AND CLEARLY, HIS ADVISERS -- AND HE HAS SOME VERY, VERY QUALIFIED PEOPLE ALREADY NOMINATED TO THE NEW CABINET.

THAT FROZEN WAR IS NOT THE END OF THE WAR.

FROZEN WAR IS JUST GIVING APP OF TIME TO ANOTHER COUNTRY TO RENEW OR RESTORE, AND POTENTIALLY STRIKE AGAIN.

SO, THE QUESTION WOULD BE TO MAKE SURE HOW THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

THERE IS NO WORD YET FROM TRUMP'S UPCOMING CABINET ON THAT BUT THERE MUST BE SOME SIGNIFICANT WORK DONE IN THAT DIRECTION AND I'M SURE UKRAINE IS HAPPY TO WORK WITH THEM, AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS.

HERE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ACTUALLY ENDING THE WAR.

NOT JUST FREEZING IT FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

>> OKAY, I JUST WANT TO REDO SOMETHING THAT YOUR FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER SAID THIS WEEK.

HE SAID, "THE FIRST WEAPONS THAT UKRAINE RECEIVED FROM THE UNITED STATES CAME FROM A PRESIDENT WHO HATES UKRAINE.

IF HIS GOAL IS TO PROJECT STRENGTH AND TO SAY EVENTUALLY THAT I AM BETTER THAN BIDEN, THAT BIDEN FAILED AND I ENDED THE WAR, THEN SELLING OUT UKRAINE IS NOT THE WAY FORWARD."

SO, THAT IS WHAT HE SAYS.

SO, TO YOU, I WANT TO ASK, THERE SEEMS TO BE A HUGE AMOUNT OF FOCUS NOW ON SECURITY GUARANTEES.

IT IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE WHAT YOU TOLD ME BEFORE, THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS, IF THERE IS A BUFFER ZONE, OR WHATEVER IT IS, UKRAINE HAS TO BE PROTECTED AGAINST A FOLLOW-UP INVASION.

SO, SECURITY GUARANTEES.

IS THAT WHAT YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOU THINK, AND ALL THE PEOPLE IN THINK TANKS LIKE YOURSELF IN UKRAINE, ARE FOCUSING ON, NOW?

ON GETTING THE BEST SECURITY GUARANTEE?

>> AS A PART OF THE PROCESS, YES.

NOT JUST THAT, BUT ALSO THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A PART OF THE WORK.

AND OUR PRESIDENT PUBLISHED A SO-CALLED VICTORY PLAN, WHICH HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED TO VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS, AND IT HAS A WHOLE SECTION OF DETERRENCE.

DETERRENCE MEANS HOW TO ENSURE THAT THE ADVERSARIES ARE KEPT OUT OF THE BORDER, AND IS UNABLE TO STRIKE US AGAIN.

THERE IS A WHOLE THEORY ABOUT THAT.

THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS AND A LOT OF POSSIBILITIES ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE.

BUT, THE KEY THING IS, THIS INSECURITY LANGUAGE, DETERRENCE BY DENIAL, WHICH MEANS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THEM AWAY FROM UKRAINE IS TO MAKE SURE THAT IF HE TRIES AGAIN, HE FAILS.

HE FAILS PHYSICALLY, LIKE IN A KINETIC CONFLICT, AND DRAMATICALLY.

AND THAT MEANS THAT CAPABILITIES, UKRAINE NEEDS TO EITHER BE IN POSSESSION OR IN IMMEDIATE POSSESSION, MUST BE ADEQUATE IN ORDER TO ENSURE.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO AND THERE ARE LOTS OF FEATURES ABOUT THAT, BUT YES, THERE IS A LOT OF WORK GOING ON RIGHT NOW ON HOW TO DO THAT.

>> ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF LAND FOR A PEACE DEAL.

NOW, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

IT IS NOW BEING SUGGESTED THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION -- SURE, THEY RUSHED TO YOUR AID, THEY GOT NATO TOGETHER, BUT THEN THEY DID JUST ENOUGH TO ENABLE YOU NOT TO LOSE AND THEY DIDN'T DO ENOUGH TO HELP YOU WIN.

WELL, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT, NOW THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS OUTGOING?

OF WHAT THEY DID FOR YOU?

>> WELL, FOR SURE, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DID SAY THAT UKRAINE EXISTS.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE TALKING TO YOU FROM KYIV, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A SAFE PLACE BECAUSE WE HAVE AIR RAIDS ALMOST EVERY NIGHT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS SOME ECONOMY, THERE IS SOME LIFE, AND PEOPLE TRYING TO KEEP ON LIVING, AND FAMILIES, SO ON, SO ON.

SO, THAT WOULD NOT EXIST IF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION JUST WALKED AWAY FROM UKRAINE, OR PROVIDED THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, WHICH WOULD NOT BE ADEQUATE.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, YES, THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHY CERTAIN WEAPONS WERE NOT PROVIDED EARLIER.

AND WHY WE MISSED SOME MOMENTS WHEN UKRAINE HAD THE UPPER HAND, AND UKRAINE ACTUALLY WAS PUSHING VERY ACTIVELY, RUSSIA AWAY FROM ITS LAND, AND IN 2022, WE LIBERATED HALF OF WHAT RUSSIA SEIZED AND BY THE END OF '22, WE WERE ACTUALLY IN A MUCH STRONGER POSITION THAN EVEN RIGHT NOW.

BUT, THEN, THERE HAS BEEN A CONSTANT DEBATE ABOUT TANKS, F- 16S, AND AT THE MOMENT, THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF WEAPONS PROVIDED, UKRAINE DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE COMPETITIVE PLANE AGAINST RUSSIAN INVASION, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

AND GENERALLY, WE WOULD TELL YOU ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE -- SO, IT IS KIND OF A DIFFICULT -- AND IT IS A MULTIPOLAR SITUATION.

>> YES, WE WILL TALK MORE ABOUT IT, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE OUT OF TIME NOW, BUT ANDRE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AS AMERICANS PREPARE FOR THANKSGIVING MEALS, WE LOOK BACK AT MICHEL MARTIN'S CONVERSATION WITH BRYANT TERRY, AN AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND AUTHOR OF SIX BOOKS, INCLUDING "BLACK FOOD: STORIES, ART, AND RECIPES FROM ACROSS THE AFRICAN DIASPORA".

HERE IS THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> BRYANT TERRY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON, MICHEL.

IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU!

YOU ARE AN AWARD-WINNING CHEF, AUTHOR, COOKBOOK AUTHOR, ACTIVIST, AND ONE OF YOUR SIGNATURES IS TO KIND OF CONNECT FOOD, NOT JUST WITH HEALTH, AND ENJOYMENT, BUT WITH THE CULTURE.

JUNETEENTH CELEBRATES THE END OF SLAVERY, AND MORE BROADLY, KIND OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN RESILIENCE AND RESISTANCE.

HOW DO YOU THINK FOOD FITS INTO THAT?

>> YEAH, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

AS YOU MENTIONED, WE KNOW THAT JUNETEENTH COMMEMORATES THE ENDING OF SLAVERY IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IT HAS A SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC CONTEXT IN TEXAS.

BUT, IT HAS MOVED BEYOND THERE AND SINCE IT IS A NATIONAL HOLIDAY NOW, IT HAS EVOLVED INTO A DAY OF REFLECTION, CELEBRATION, AND EDUCATION ABOUT BLACK HISTORY AND CULTURE.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THE WORK I DO AROUND HEALTH, FOOD, AND FARMING ISSUES, AND BECAUSE I JUST LOVE TO EAT, I AM ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT DIFFERENT CULTURAL HOLIDAYS, OUR CULTURAL HOLIDAYS, THROUGH THE LENS OF FOOD.

AND WE KNOW THAT FOOD HAS ALWAYS PLAYED A CENTRAL ROLE IN CULTURAL EXPRESSION, COMMUNITY BUILDING, AND SURVIVAL IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

WE CAN GO BACK TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

WE THINK ABOUT SO MANY OF THE RESTAURANTS AND HOME COOKS WHO SUPPORTED BLACK ACTIVISTS.

IN FACT, SO MUCH OF THE STRATEGIZING AND ORGANIZING HAPPENED AT HOME KITCHENS.

WE THINK ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE FANNY LOU HANEBERG, WHO WE OFTEN ASSOCIATE WITH ELECTORAL POLITICS, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE AREN'T AWARE THAT FANNY LOU HANEBERG STARTED THE FREEDOM FARM IN MISSISSIPPI, WHICH HAD OVER 600 ACRES OF LAND, THEY HAD AFFORDABLE HOUSING, ACRES AND ACRES OF FARMLAND, AND EDUCATIONAL WORKSHOPS TO EMPOWER THE COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW, BUT, I JUST WANTED TO MENTION ONE OF MY BIGGEST INSPIRATIONS, AND THAT WAS THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY, FOR SELF- DEFENSE.

THEY ARE LOCALLY KNOWN AS THE BLACK PANTHERS.

WHILE THE MEDIA OFTEN PAINTS THEM AS KIND OF ANGRY, MILITANT, THEY HAD A NUMBER OF MEANINGFUL AND POWERFUL PROGRAMS THAT WERE AIMED AT MEETING THE BASIC NEEDS AND COMMUNITIES.

A NUMBER OF THEM LOOKED AT HEALTH, SPECIFICALLY FOOD.

THERE WERE GROCERY GIVEAWAYS AND THE FREE BREAKFAST FOR CHILDREN PROGRAM, FEEDING CHILDREN HOT NURSING BREAKFAST IS EVERY MORNING.

SO, WHEN I THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS THAT PREDATE THE TYPE OF ACTIVISM THAT I CURRENTLY DO AROUND THESE ISSUES, IT ONLY MAKES SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE THINK ABOUT JUNETEENTH AND JUST ALL THE CONNECTIONS WITH THE TRANSFER OF INGREDIENTS FROM THE AFRICAN CONTINENT, TO THE NEW WORLD, AS WELL AS COOKING TECHNIQUES.

SO, I USE IT AS A TIME TO CELEBRATE FOOD.

>> YOU KNOW, PEOPLE OFTEN THINK OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN CUISINE OR TRADITIONAL AFRICAN-AMERICAN CUISINE AS "SLAVE FOOD."

RIGHT?

WHAT WAS CREATED FROM THE REMNANTS, THE LEFT OVER, THE LEAST DESIRABLE PORTIONS, AS IT WERE.

YOU REALLY TALK ABOUT RESISTANCE, YOU REALLY RESIST THAT NARRATIVE.

DO YOU WANT TO SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS NOT QUITE RIGHT?

AND WHY DO YOU PUSH HARD AGAINST THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK IN GENERAL IN THE POPULAR IMAGINATION, THERE ARE THESE WAYS THAT WE THINK ABOUT BLACK FOOD, SPECIFICALLY FOOD IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO, AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE ARE KIND OF THESE TWO STRAINS THAT I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT.

THEY EITHER TALK ABOUT THE ANTEBELLUM SURVIVAL FOOD UPON WHICH MANY ENSLAVED AFRICANS SURVIVED.

AND PEOPLE OFTEN TALK DISPARAGINGLY ABOUT FOOD.

I HAVE HEARD IT REFERRED TO AS "SLAVE FOOD."

AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE IS THIS HISTORY OF PLANTATION OWNERS GIVING ENSLAVED AFRICANS THE WORST PARTS OF THE ANIMALS, THE ANIMAL BEZERRA, OR THE DISCARDED PARTS OF THE VEGETABLE.

AND ONE, LET'S NOT MENTION THE FACT THAT THERE WERE FREED BLACK PEOPLE, EVERY BLACK PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES, A PERSON OF AFRICAN DESCENT, WASN'T A SLAVE TO.

BUT, THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY WASN'T A MONOLITH.

SO, MAYBE IN THE DEEP SOUTH, THE BLACK BELT, IT WAS MORE OF A PATERNALISTIC SYSTEM IN WHICH EVERY NEED OF ENSLAVED AFRICANS WAS PROVIDED BY PLANTATION OWNERS, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY LOOKED DIFFERENT, THE WAY ENSLAVED AFRICANS MIGHT GROW FOOD, COOK IT, AND EAT IT IN THE COASTAL CAROLINAS MIGHT LOOK DIFFERENT THAN IT DID IN MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, AND TENNESSEE, AND THAT LOOKED DIFFERENT THAN IT DID IN LOUISIANA AND THAT LOOKED DIFFERENT THAN IT DID IN BY BRAZIL.

SO, TO REDUCE IT TO JUST "SLAVE FOODS" IT ERASES THIS HISTORY OF ENSLAVED AFRICANS MAYBE HAVING A GARDEN IN WHICH THEY COULD GROW THEIR OWN FOODS FOR THEIR FAMILIES OR HAVING A DAY OFF OR THEY COULD HUNT FOR PROTEIN, BUT THE OTHER STRAIN I SEE ARE THOSE BIG, FLAVORED MEATS THAT WE MIGHT FIND IN A SOUL FOOD RESTAURANT, OR THE SUGARY DESSERTS, OR OVERCOOKED VEGETABLES.

HERE IS THE THING, I AM NOT DENYING ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

CHITLINS, AND PIGS FEET, AND RED VELVET CAKE, MACARONI AND CHEESE, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE PART OF THIS VERY DIVERSE CUISINE THAT WE HAVE, BUT WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE TYPE OF FOOD THAT MY GRANDFATHER AND HIS PARENTS, AND, YOU KNOW, SO MANY OF OUR ANCESTORS, THEY WERE EATING THINGS LIKE NUTRIENT RICH COLLARDS, MUSTARDS, TURNIPS, KALE, DANDELION, SUGAR SNAP PEAS, SWEET POTATOES, BLACK-EYED PEAS.

THESE ARE THE KINDS OF FOODS MICHEL, AS YOU KNOW, THAT ANY WESTERN TRAINED PHYSICIAN, OR DIETITIAN, OR NUTRITIONIST, SHOULD SAY WE ALL EAT IT.

SO I WANT TO UPLIFT AND HIGHLIGHT THOSE NUTRIENT RICH, HEALTHFUL FOODS THAT ARE PART OF OUR TRADITION SO WE HAVE A MORE HOLISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE TYPES OF FOODS WE HAVE GROWN AND EATEN HISTORICALLY.

>> HOW DID IT START, FOR YOU?

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE PERIOD WHEN I -- YOU KNOW THERE IS A STEREOTYPE, MICHEL, I AM SURE YOU HAVE KIND OF HEARD OR SEEN THIS STEREOTYPE OF THE SELF-RIGHTEOUS, DOGMATIC, JUDGMENTAL VEGANS, RIGHT?

THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WAGGING THEIR FINGER AT YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT EATING A VEGAN DIET EVEN THOUGH THEY JUST CONVERTED TO VEGANISM LIKE THE WEEK BEFORE.

SO, THAT WAS ME IN HIGH SCHOOL.

ONE OF THE POWERFUL THINGS THAT REALLY HELPED TRANSFORM MY HABITS AND ATTITUDES AND POLITICS REGARDING FOOD, WAS A HIP-HOP SONG.

THE SONG "BEEF" BY THE HIP-HOP GROUP, BOOGIE DOWN PRODUCTIONS, ONE OF THE SEMINAL HIP-HOP GROUPS.

>> ♪ BEEF, WHAT A RELIEF WHEN WILL THIS POISONOUS PRODUCT TO CEASE ♪ THIS IS ANOTHER PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT ♪ YOU CAN BELIEVE IT OR YOU CAN DOUBT IT ♪ LET US BEGIN NOW WITH THE CAL ♪ >> IT REALLY JUST BLEW ME AWAY AND TRANSFORMED EVERYTHING FOR ME, BECAUSE THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT FACTORY FARMING.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT ANIMALS IN OUR FOOD SYSTEM HAD ENDURED SO MUCH VIOLENCE.

AS A YOUNG PERSON, IT HAD SUCH AN IMPACT ON ME, AND THE THING IS, I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THAT ABRASIVE PERIOD THAT I WENT THROUGH AND I THINK IT IS JUST NATURAL FOR A YOUNG PERSON TO HAVE A SHIFT IN WORLDVIEW, AND TO FEEL VERY ZEALOUS ABOUT TRYING TO CHANGE THE WORLD.

BUT, ONCE AGAIN, WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS THAT RATHER THAN PROSELYTIZING THE MOST POWERFUL WAY THAT I HAVE ENGAGED PEOPLE, IS BY DOING PRACTICAL THINGS, TEACHING PEOPLE COOKING SKILLS, WRITING COOK BOOKS, PROVIDING PEOPLE WITH DELICIOUS FOOD AND THAT IS SUCH A POWERFUL WAY TO TRANSFORM PEOPLE'S HEARTS, MINDS, AND SPIRITS.

>> WELL, WHAT MADE YOU BECOME A CHEF?

>> IT WAS REALLY THE POLITICS OF FOOD THAT MOVED ME TOWARD, YOU KNOW, JUST GOING TO CULINARY SCHOOL AND THINKING ABOUT USING FOOD AS A TRANSFORMATIVE TOOL.

AND IT STARTED WHEN I WAS A DOCTORAL STUDENT IN HISTORY AT NYU WHEN I WAS DOING RESEARCH ON THE BLACK PANTHERS.

THEY WERE DOING ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS AROUND HEALTH, DOING TESTING FOR SICKLE CELL ANEMIA.

BUT, THE ONE THAT TRANSFORMED ME THE MOST WAS THEIR FREE BREAKFAST RITUAL PROGRAM.

THIS WAS STARTED IN 1969, JANUARY OF THAT YEAR.

BY THE END OF THE YEAR, IT HAD SPREAD TO EVERY MAJOR CITY THAT HAD A BLACK PANTHER CHAPTER AND THEY WERE BEATING OVER 10,000 CHILDREN EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I JUST REMEMBERED THIS MOMENT OF CLARITY, I WAS ON THE SUBWAY ONE MORNING, GOING TO THE VILLAGE TO TEACH A CLASS, AND I SAW THESE KIDS ON THE SUBWAY EATING RED HOT CHEETOS, AND CANDY BARS, AND SUGARY DONUTS, AND THEY WERE DRINKING SODAS, AND ENERGY DRINKS, AND I REALIZED THAT THESE KIDS, AS MY MENTOR, ROSS PATEL WOULD SAY, THEY ARE BEING STUFFED AND STARVED.

THEY ARE EATING A LOT, BUT IT IS EMPTY CALORIES.

AND I REALIZED THAT THE SPIRIT OF THE ACTIVISM BACK IN THE PURGE IN 60s AND '70S, WE NEED IT NOW.

SO I WANT TO BE A FOOD JUSTICE ADVOCATE TO MAKE AN INTERVENTION, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO JUST BE IN THE REALM OF IDEAS AND POLITICS.

I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT FELT PRACTICAL, THAT FELT IMMEDIATE, THAT FELT LIKE IT WAS GIVING YOUNG PEOPLE SKILLS, SO I STARTED AN ORGANIZATION, BE HEALTHY, THAT USED COOKING AS A WAY TO WAKE UP THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TO THE REALITIES OF OUR FOOD SYSTEM, BUT ALSO GIVE THEM THE SKILLS SO THAT WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS, THEY WILL ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO MAKE MEALS FOR THEMSELVES, GO SHOPPING, PREPARE THE FOOD, AND REALLY HAVE THIS KIND OF SUSTENANCE BASED APPROACH TO TAKING CARE OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

>> HAVE YOU SEEN A CHANGE, OVER THE TIME, THAT SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING AS A CHEF AND ALSO AS A COOKBOOK AUTHOR, HAVE YOU SEEN A CHANGE?

I KNOW THINKING ABOUT ONE OF YOUR FIRST BOOKS, "AFRO-VEGAN", YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE, I THINK, MAY HAVE BEEN SURPRISED THAT SOMEBODY LIKE YOU EVEN EXISTS.

>> THAT BOOK WAS PUBLISHED A DECADE AGO, WE JUST CELEBRATED THE 10 YEAR ANNIVERSARY AND IT HAS BEEN SO ENCOURAGING, I HAVE TO SAY, TO SEE SO MANY PEOPLE, WHO ARE -- I WILL SAY -- OPEN TO EATING MORE PLANT-BASED FOODS.

EVEN PEOPLE WHO AREN'T NECESSARILY TRYING TO EMBRACE A FULL ON VEGAN OR PLANT-BASED DIET, WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS PEOPLE ARE OPEN TO DOING MEATLESS MONDAYS, OR PEOPLE ARE OPEN TO DOING, YOU KNOW, ONE MEAL A DAY THAT HAS JUST, YOU KNOW, A VEGAN MEAL WITH NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS.

AND WHAT THAT SAYS TO ME, IS THAT MORE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE -- I MEAN, LOOK, THE DATA IS OUT.

WE KNOW THAT HAVING MORE PLANTS IN OUR DIET IS MORE NUTRIENT DENSE, IT TENDS TO BE MORE HELPFUL, AND PEOPLE JUST FEEL LIGHTER.

AND YOU KNOW, MICHEL, YOU HAVE SEEN ME ON THIS JOURNEY FOR A DECADE, AND I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT THAT HAS BEEN MY APPROACH.

YOU CAN START WITH THE HEAVY, INTELLECTUAL IDEAS, OR THE POLITICS, BUT A LOT OF TIMES, WHEN YOU START THERE, PEOPLE RUN AWAY.

BUT, MY APPROACH HAS BEEN STARTING WITH THE FOOD, BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THESE NEGATIVE PERCEPTIONS OF WHAT PLANT-BASED CUISINE IS.

AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS, WHEN YOU SERVE PEOPLE DELICIOUS FOOD THAT IS DEVOID OF ANIMAL PRODUCTS, THEY ARE OFTEN SURPRISED, AND IT MAKES THEM MORE OPEN TO EATING THIS TYPE OF FOOD.

I WILL SAY, ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN A LITTLE FRUSTRATING TO ME IS THAT IT SEEMS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE SPENDING THEIR DOLLARS IN ALIGNMENT WITH THEIR VALUES IS ENOUGH.

IF I JUST GO TO THE BIG CORPORATE MARKET AND I BUY ALL OF THIS VEGAN AND ORGANIC FOOD, THEN I AM DOING MY JOB.

AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT TO SPEND OUR DOLLARS IN ALIGNMENT WITH OUR VALUES, BUT I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THE LARGER, STRUCTURAL REASONS THAT MANY COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTHY, FRESH FRUIT.

THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO SUPERMARKETS.

SO, I ALWAYS ASK PEOPLE TO CONSIDER, HOW CAN YOU GET INVOLVED WITH YOUR COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE HAS A HUMAN RIGHT TO HEALTHY, FRESH, AFFORDABLE, AND PLANT CENTERED FOOD?

>> DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE MAKING HEADWAY?

>> OH, FOR SURE.

YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT LETS ME KNOW I AM MAKING HEADWAY IS THIS GENERATION OF YOUNG COOKBOOK AUTHORS, AND CHEFS, AND FOOD JUSTICE ADVOCATES, WHO ARE IN THE STREETS DOING THIS BIG.

I TURNED 50 THIS YEAR, SO I AM AN OLD MAN, NOW.

[ LAUGHTER ] AND JUST AS I AM STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF SO MANY OF MY ANCESTORS WHO COME BEFORE ME, WHETHER IT IS FANNY LOU HAMER, OR ACTIVISTS LIKE GREGORY, THE ANTHROPOLOGIST AND COOKBOOK WRITER, I HOPE THAT MANY IN THIS YOUNGER GENERATION SEE THEMSELVES STANDING ON MY SHOULDERS, AND I IMAGINE THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS SO MUCH FURTHER THAN I EVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED, SO I AM HOPEFUL, SO HOPEFUL.

>> ONE OF YOUR LATEST BOOKS, THE 2021 BOOK, CALLED "BLACK FOOD: STORIES, ART, AND RECIPES FROM ACROSS THE AFRICAN DIASPORA" IT WON A BUNCH OF AWARDS, IT WAS HAILED AS ONE OF THE MOST CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED AMERICAN COOKBOOKS THAT YEAR.

EITHER ONE OR TWO STORIES OR ESSAYS THAT REALLY STAND OUT TO YOU?

OR, RECIPES, FOR THAT MATTER, THAT REALLY STAND OUT TO YOU?

>> WE PUT THAT BOOK TOGETHER IN NINE MONTHS, AND WE STARTED WORKING ON IT IN 2020, WHEN THE U.S. WAS KIND OF RECKONING WITH THE WAYS IN WHICH WE TREATED AFRICAN-AMERICANS HISTORICALLY, AND CONTEMPORANEOUSLY.

I KNEW THAT -- I SAW AN ANTHOLOGY LIKE BLACK FOOD THAT BROUGHT TOGETHER SCHOLARS, AND CHEFS, AND ACTIVISTS FROM AROUND THE GLOBE, IS SOMETHING THAT I DO LATER IN MY CAREER.

BUT, IN THAT MOMENT, I REALIZED THERE WAS A SENSE OF URGENCY TO DO IT THEN, BECAUSE IT WAS REVEALED, THERE WAS A LOT OF RACISM WITHIN THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY.

THERE WAS A LOT OF HIGHLIGHT OF THE WAYS IN WHICH AUTHORS OF COLOR AND BLACK AUTHORS WERE HAVING A HARDER TIME GETTING THEIR WORK PUBLISHED, SO I JUST FELT LIKE THIS WAS THE MOMENT, AND I REACHED OUT TO FRIENDS AROUND THE GLOBE TO BE A PART OF THIS BOOK AND I COULDN'T BE MORE PROUD.

MY FAVORITE ASPECT OF THE BOOK IS THE ARTWORK.

EVERY CHAPTER STARTS WITH A PIECE OF ART THAT I GOT PERMISSION, OR HAD ARTISTS CREATE OUR ORIGINAL PIECE, THAT REALLY ENCAPSULATED THE IDEAS AND THE CONTENT WITHIN.

AND YOU KNOW, I JUST, AS AN EDUCATOR, I AM ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT THE MULTIPLE WAYS THAT PEOPLE LEARN.

SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FORMALLY EDUCATED, THEY CAN DIG DEEPLY INTO A HEAVY, INTELLECTUAL ESSAY, BUT THEN SOME PEOPLE MIGHT BE MORE MOVED BY AN IMAGE THAT REALLY JUST SPEAKS TO, YOU KNOW, THESE ISSUES THAT WE ARE COVERING.

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NEED BE MOVED BY THE POETRY IN THE BOOK, OTHERS MIGHT SEE IT AS A BOOK THEY USE IN THE KITCHEN.

SO, WHEN I WROTE THE BOOK, OR WHEN I CONCEIVED OF IT, I SAID, I WANT THIS TO BE A BOOK THAT MOVES FROM ONE'S KITCHEN, TO THEIR NIGHTSTAND, TO THEIR COFFEE TABLE, AND THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN SO TREMENDOUS, AND, YOU KNOW, HERE WE ARE.

WHAT, THREE YEARS LATER, AFTER THE BOOK HAS BEEN PUBLISHED AND WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT AND I HOPE WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT A 30 YEARS FROM NOW.

>> OKAY, WELL, FOR THE MOMENT, THOUGH, SOME PEOPLE DO WANT THOSE RECIPES.

SO, WHILE PEOPLE ARE PLANNING THEIR JUNETEENTH GET-TOGETHERS, WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

ANY RECOMMENDATIONS?

>> OH, MY GOSH, MY FAVORITE RECIPE IN THE BOOK, FORKS DOWN, IS THIS BLUEBERRY VEGAN CHEESECAKE, BY THIS BRILLIANT PASTRY CHEF, MALCOLM LIVINGSTON.

TO BE CLEAR, THIS COOKBOOK HAS, YOU KNOW, DOZENS OF RECIPES, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALL VEGAN AND IT IS A DECISION I HAD TO MAKE AS IN AN EDITOR TO REALLY GIVE THE CONTRIBUTORS SPACE, OR CONTRIBUTE THE RECIPE THAT MADE SENSE TO THEM, OR TOLD THEIR FAMILIES STORIES.

NICOLE TAYLOR, A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE, WHO ACTUALLY HAS A BOOK ABOUT JUNETEENTH, THAT IS BRILLIANT, "WATERMELON AND RED BIRDS."

SHE DOES THIS COCOA BAKED FISH RECIPE, AND PEOPLE THINK, COCOA AND FISH?

BUT, IT IS ACTUALLY BRILLIANT, AND SCRUMPTIOUS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD, YOU KNOW, DRINK RECIPES.

TONY TIPTON MARTIN, THE CO-BOOK AUTHOR, AND EDITOR, DOES A RECIPE, I THINK IT IS A WHISKEY SOUR.

SO, THERE ARE JUST SO MANY GREAT RECIPES IN THERE AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IN TERMS OF MENU PLANNING FOR JUNETEENTH OR OTHERWISE, THIS IS A POWERFUL RESOURCE.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] THIS WILL HELP YOU OUT.

OKAY, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, WE HAVE TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT.

WHAT IS YOUR CELEBRATION FOOD?

WHAT IS YOUR GO TO FOR A GET TOGETHER DAY, LIKE JUNETEENTH?

>> IF I HAVE TO MAKE A DISH, IF IT IS ONE THING THAT IS IN THE MEDIC OF MY LOVE, HOPPEN JOHN, BLACK-EYED PEAS, RICE, THAT RICH TOMATO SAUCE, THAT IS, HANDS DOWN, THAT HAS TO BE MY DISH.

>> THAT HAS TO BE THERE.

ALL RIGHT.

BRYANT TERRY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHEL.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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