♪ TORI: I AM TORI BEDFORD.

TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON THE UNITED STATES AND MORE THAN A DOZEN OTHER COUNTRIES ARE TAKING STEPS TO MAKE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE MORE SECURE, BUT IS IT ENOUGH TO MAKE REAL CHANGE AND EASY FEARS OVER THE RAPIDLY EVOLVING AND POTENTIALLY DESTRUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY?

I WILL TALK TO A FORMER TECH ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

OVER ONE THIRD OF COLLEGE STUDENTS END UP TRANSFERRING, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF HIDDEN COSTS BEHIND THE MOVE.

THE TEAM BEHIND GBH NEWS'’ COLLEGE AND COVERED A PODCAST JOINS ME ON THE BARRIERS TO TRANSFERRING CREDITS.

♪ UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, AND MORE THAN A DOZEN OTHER COUNTRIES ARE COMING TOGETHER ON AN INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT ON HOW TO KEEP ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SAFE AND SECURE.

RESPONDING TO WIDESPREAD CONCERNS ABOUT AI AND ITS POTENTIAL TO DISRUPT EVERYTHING FROM ELECTIONS AND ENERGY GRIDS, TO EDUCATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT, THE 20 PAGE DOCUMENT OUTLINES TOP RARITIES TO MAKE AI SECURE BY DEFAULT, FOCUSING ON SECURITY FOR CUSTOMERS, TRANSPARENCY, AND ACCOUNTABILITY AND ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURES THAT PRIORITIZE THE SECURE BY DESIGN GOAL, BUT THE AGREEMENT IS NONBINDING AND ONLY MAKES RECOMMENDATIONS FOR MONITORING AI SYSTEMS FOR ABUSE.

SO WILL THIS MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

TO DISCUSS I AM JOINED BY A FORMER ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT BIDEN ON TECHNOLOGY ALEX PASCAL WHO IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT HARVARD'’S ASH CENTER FOR INNOVATION AND A MEMBER OF GETTING CLARITY RESEARCH ON EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES.

THINK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

ALSO JOINED BY A THIRD GUEST THAT WILL BE AI GENERATED TO JUST COUNTER EVERYTHING YOU SAY.

ALEX: I LOOK FORWARD TO THAT.

IT IS NONBINDING.

DOES THIS HAVE ANY TEETH?

ALEX: IT DOES NOT HAVE TEETH BUT DOES HAVE POWER OF RECOMMENDATION AND GUIDANCE, AND THE FACT THAT IT WAS DEVELOPED WITH INPUT FROM AI DEVELOPERS THEMSELVES AND SHARED WIDESPREAD INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT IS A GOOD SIGN THAT THE AGREEMENT WILL SHAPE THE DEVELOPMENT OF TECHNOLOGY, BUT THAT SAID IT IS ONLY VOLUNTARY, AND IF WE HAVE LEARNED ANYTHING FROM THE SOCIAL MEDIA ERA IS LEAVING THE INDUSTRY TO SELF REGULATE IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

TORI: YOU MENTIONED THERE WAS A LOT OF INPUT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW MOST ABOUT IT, BUT SHOULD THOSE PEOPLE BE IN CHARGE OF REGULATING IT WHEN THEY ALSO HAVE VESTED PRIVATE INTEREST IN THE INDUSTRY?

ALEX: AI DEVELOPERS THEMSELVES AND OF THE MOST ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES DEVELOPING IT, SO THEY HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE AND WHAT CAN HELP KEEP IT SAFE.

THAT SAID, WE NEED MORE TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE PUBLIC SECTOR TO ENSURE THAT THESE GUIDELINES, RECOMMENDATIONS ARE FOLLOWED AND ENFORCED, AND WE CANNOT DO THAT WITHOUT REGULATION AND LEGISLATION.

TORI: WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIGGEST CONCERNS ADDRESSED IN THIS REPORT?

ALEX: THIS REPORT IN PARTICULAR HIS FOCUS ON SECURITY DESIGNED AND MISUSE BY MILITIAS OUTSIDE ACTORS, SO WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN THE CYBER INDUSTRY BEFORE, THE INTERNET THAT THE TECHNOLOGY NEEDS TO BE SECURED BY DESIGN SO THAT OUTSIDE HACKERS, ACTORS, THOSE WHO WANT TO ABUSE THIS TECHNOLOGY DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THAT, IN THE SECURITY IS BUILT INTO THE TECHNOLOGY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

TORI: WHAT WOULD ABUSE LOOK LIKE?

DOES THAT LOOK LIKE SELLING PEOPLE'’S DATA?

CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF ABUSE?

ALEX: THERE IS A RANGE OF POSSIBLE ABUSES.

IT COULD BE DATA BREACHES.

IT COULD BE RETOOLING THE TECHNOLOGY FOR MISUSE USING THE TECHNOLOGY FOR DEEP FAKES OR SCAMS OR IS THERE -- OTHER KINDS OF THINGS.

REWIRING WHAT IS INTENDED TO BE GOOD TECHNOLOGY FOR PEOPLE TO BENEFIT AND USE AND USING IT FOR CERTAIN MALICIOUS INTENT.

IT COULD ALSO INVOLVE BUILDING A BIOHAZARD OR BIO SECURITY CONCERNS OR CYBER HACKING, THINGS LIKE THAT.

TORI: THESE KINDS OF DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT A PUBLIC OR PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS EVERYWHERE, RIGHT?

I KNOW PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD TO WORK OUT AI POLICIES FOR THEIR UNIVERSITIES, RIGHT?

THIS IS A KIND OF TECHNOLOGY THAT IS BECOMING ENTRENCHED IN SO MANY INDUSTRIES, SO THIS IS SOMETHING EVERYONE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT.

ALEX: THAT IS PART OF THE CONCERN, AND WHY THE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT IS SO TIMELY AND IMPORTANT AND WHY IT IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT NOT THE END OF THE STORY.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT BECAUSE THIS TECHNOLOGY IS BEING SEATED THROUGHOUT OUR SOCIETY AND LIVES, IT IS INCUMBENT UPON THE DEVELOPERS, THE COMPANIES, THOSE OF BUILDING THE TECHNOLOGY THEMSELVES TO ENSURE THEY CANNOT ABUSE IT, BECAUSE END-USERS ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO KEEP IT SECURE.

TORI: WHAT IS THE JURASSIC PARK QUOTE?

THERE WERE SO OBSESSED ABOUT IF THEY COULD THEY DID NOT THINK IF THEY SHOULD?

ALEX: YEAH.

TORI: I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT WE SAW AN EXAMPLE OF THIS DEBATE REALLY PLAYING OUT IN A VERY PUBLIC WAY WITH SAM ALTMAN, OPENAI, WHICH OWNS CHATGPT.

MICROSOFT IS BEEN A BIG INVESTOR, AND THAT COMPANY, YOU CAN SPEAK MORE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THERE, BUT THERE WAS A BIG DIVISION ABOUT MOVING TOO FAST VERSUS BEING MORE CAREFUL ABOUT THE USE OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, RIGHT?

THAT IS WHAT IT CAME DOWN TO?

ALEX: WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED INSIDE THE BOARD ROOM AND WHAT THE CAUSE OF THAT PEOPLE WAS, WHAT I THINK THE LARGER DEBATE IS A VERY REAL ONE AT A VERY TIMELY ONE, AND IT IS ABOUT HOW SHOULD THESE TECHNOLOGIES BE USED AND TO WHAT END AND WHAT PATIENT THE INNOVATION BE HAPPENING, AND THERE IS AN OLD SAYING THAT YOU CAN GET IT FAST OR YOU CAN GET A GOOD, AND IF AI IS AS POWERFUL AS IS DEVELOPERS ARE SAYING, WE SHOULD NEEDED TO BE GOOD RATHER THAN FAST.

IT NEEDS TO BE SECURE, SAFE, TRUSTWORTHY, AND UNBIASED, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE IT IS ALL OF THOSE THINGS BEFORE IT IS UNLEASHED ON THE WORLD.

TORI: THIS IS A VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT.

IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE WORKS WERE GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION OR FURTHER REGULATION OF THESE LARGELY PRIVATIZED INDUSTRIES?

ALEX: I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF WORK DONE IN CONGRESS ABOUT LEGISLATING.

WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THERE.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RELEASED THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE EXECUTIVE IN HISTORY THAT COVERS A WIDE RANGE OF DIMENSIONS OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND THAT IS TO ENSURE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS REALLY GETTING A HANDLE AND STARTING TO SHAPE THE TRAJECTORY OF THE TECHNOLOGY UPSTREAM BEFORE IT REALLY GETS SEATED THROUGHOUT OUR ECOSYSTEM, AND SO THE GOVERNMENT IS TAKING A LOT OF ACTION.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF AGENCIES BEGINNING TO OFFER AND DEVELOP GUIDELINES AND REGULATIONS, RULEMAKINGS, AND THE GOVERNMENT CAN BE AN IMPORTANT SORT OF CUSTOMER AND SHAPER OF THE TECHNOLOGY IN THAT REGARD.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS A LOT TO DO, AND THESE ARE ONLY VOLUNTARY GUIDELINES.

TORI: GOVERNMENT REGULATION OF TECHNOLOGY, THE GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A COUPLE OF STEPS BEHIND, RIGHT?

ALEX: THAT HAS BEEN THE CASE IN THE RECENT PAST, BUT I THINK IN THIS CASE IT IS THE INDUSTRY ITSELF CALLING FOR REGULATION, AND GOVERNMENT IS SAYING THIS IS A REALLY BIG MOMENT.

WE NEED TO STEP UP AND GET AHEAD OF THIS, AND THAT IS WHAT YOU SAW SUCH A COMPREHENSIVE EXECUTIVE ORDER FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND SO MUCH ATTENTION PAID TO THIS ISSUE.

IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS A RECOGNITION THIS IS A POWERFUL AND POTENTIALLY TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY, AND WE NEED TO SHAPE HOW IT DEVELOPS, NOT JUST REACTIVATE HIS DOWN THE ROAD.

TORI: I WENT TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING TRULY TERRIFYING THAT I STUMBLED UPON ON THE INTERNET THAT DEMONSTRATES THE GREAT SCOPE AND POWER OF THIS TECHNOLOGY AND THE DANGERS THAT IT HOLDS.

THIS IS ANNA INDIANA WHO IS AI GENERATED.

>> HELLO, WORLD.

MY NAME IS ANNA INDIANA AND I AM SO EXCITED TO SHARE MY MUSIC WITH YOU.

HERE IS MY FIRST SONG, BETRAYED BY THIS TOWN.

♪ >> ♪ BETRAYED BY THIS TOWN LET'’S TEAR IT ALL DOWN WE'’VE LOST IT ALL ♪ ♪ TORI: OBVIOUSLY THAT IS GARBAGE, BUT IT IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

WE SAW AI GENERATED IMAGES THAT PEOPLE HAD 12 FINGERS AND NOW THEY HAVE 10, AND WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING STAGES OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, AND IT HAS IMPLICATIONS FOR EDUCATION AND BOSTON DYNAMICS ROBOTS, WEAPONRY, WE TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT FIELDS, AND IS PART OF THE CONCERN THAT IT IS EVOLVING, AND THAT MIGHT SOUND SILLY, BUT THE FACT THAT THAT CAN EXIST WHERE THERE CAN BE IMAGES GENERATED, LYRICS IT GENERATED, MUSIC AND CORDS AND HUMAN WASTE GENERATED.

I KNOW THAT WAS SILLY BUT IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW FAR WE HAVE GONE.

ALEX: ONE OF THE SCARIEST PARTS ABOUT THIS IS ALL OF THIS IS UNREAL.

IT IS NOT MADE BY PEOPLE ANYMORE , AND THAT CAN BE ENTERTAINING FOR SURE, AND WE WILL GET A LOT OF LAUGHS FROM AI, I HAVE NO DOUBT, AND THE FACT THAT WE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO TRUST OR SEE WHAT WE HEAR OR READ OR EXPERIENCE IN THE WORLD, AND THAT MIGHT NOT BE REAL ANYMORE IS GOING TO CAUSE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE EROSION OF TRUST THAT WILL CAUSE IN OUR SOCIETY, AND THAT IS A HUGE CONCERN, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE SCARIEST PARTS OF THIS.

TORI: WE HAVE SEEN THAT ALREADY ON A LOT OF SOCIAL MEDIA WEBSITES WHERE THERE IS SO MUCH BOT ACTIVITY THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN REALLY TELL WHAT IS REAL ANYMORE, WHICH IS WHITE MEDIA LITERACY IS A BIG PART OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS, OR IT SHOULD BE.

ALEX: AND AGAIN IT IS INCUMBENT UPON THOSE DEVELOPING AI TO ENSURE WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS NOT, WHAT IS AI GENERATED AND WHAT IS NOT AND WE CAN DISCERN, BECAUSE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT WHETHER IT IS IN OUR POLITICS, CONSUMER BEHAVIOR, HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS, ALL OF THAT IS AT STAKE HERE.

TORI: ALEX PASCAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ALEX: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

TORI: AS THE FALL SEMESTER WINDS DOWN MANY COLLEGE STUDENTS ARE BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SCHOOL THEY ARE AT IS NOT THE RIGHT FIT.

MORE THAN 2 MILLION STUDENTS EVERY YEAR DECIDE TO TRANSFER, BUT THIS WHICH CAN BE COSTLY NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE MOVE IN HIGHER TUITION, BUT BECAUSE A LOT OF CREDITS DO NOT END UP TRANSFERRING WITH THEM, AND THAT AMOUNTS TO A TOTAL OF $6 BILLION WORTH OF $6 BILLION WERE DEBATE CLASSES EVERY YEAR WITH NOTHING TO SHOW FOR THEM.

THOSE ON SCENE COSTS -- UNSEEN COSTS ARE THE LATEST TOPIC OF COLLAGEN COVERED IN COLLABORATION WITH THE HECK INJURY REPORT.

KIRK WHO IS THE GBH NEWS MANAGING EDITOR JOINS ME NOW ALONG WITH JON MARCUS AND SIMBA GANDARI WHO AS A PODCAST SHEARING HISTORY.

I WENT TO START WITH YOU, BECAUSE WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE WORK THAT BOTH OF YOU HAVE BEEN DOING TO UNCOVER, HOW DO YOU SAY PULL BACK THE IV.

YOU CAME HERE, AND YOU WERE GOING THROUGH THE U.S. EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM, AND WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THAT?

SIMBA: I STARTED AT PIEDMONT COLLEGE AND GOT MY ASSOCIATES DEGREE, AND I WAS READY TO TRANSFER TO A FOUR YEAR COLLEGE.

THE OPTIONS THAT I LOOKED AT IN SOME CASES WOULD ONLY TAKE HALF OF MY CREDITS.

I HAD 66 CREDITS IN TOTAL.

SOME SCHOOL WOULD ONLY TAKE 45.

I DID FIND A SCHOOL IN MILWAUKEE THAT WAS WILLING TO TAKE 60 OF MY CREDITS, AND I CHOSE TO TRANSFER THERE.

HOWEVER, ALMOST IN MY LAST SEMESTER I WAS INFORMED THAT I WAS STILL MISSING CREDITS AND I WOULD HAVE TO TAKE AN EXTRA SEMESTER OF COLLEGE.

TORI: I MEAN, YOU SPEND MONEY ON THESE COURSES.

YOU TOOK THE COURSES, YOU LEARNED THE INFORMATION AND YOU WERE TOLD THEY WERE NOT VALID OR THEY WERE NOT WORTH THIS MUCH AT A FOUR YEAR SCHOOL?

SIMBA: I WAS TOLD THAT I WAS MISSING SPECIFICALLY ENGLISH LITERATURE.

I HAD TAKEN WHAT I NEEDED AT THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

HOWEVER, THEY STILL SAID I WAS MISSING AN ENGLISH LITERATURE CLASS AND A SECOND CLASS, AND I WOULD HAVE TO STAY FOR THAT EXTRA SEMESTER.

I WAS HEARTBROKEN AND JUST DID NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL MEANS TO TAKE ANOTHER SEMESTER.

TORI: DID YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF GUIDANCE THROUGH THAT PROCESS?

DID ANYBODY TELL YOU HOW THAT WAS HOW IT WAS GOING TO BE?

SIMBA: I WOULD MEET WITH THE GUIDANCE COUNSELOR BEFORE EACH SEMESTER STARTED WHO WOULD GUIDE ME TOWARD THAT, SO IT WAS A SURPRISE WITH THE SEMESTER TO GO TO FIND OUT THAT I WAS STILL MISSING SOME CREDITS.

TORI: YEAH, BECAUSE THEY WERE TELLING YOU THAT IT WAS GOING TO WORK OUT AND YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO TRANSFER THEM, RIGHT?

SIMBA: THAT IS CORRECT.

TORI: I WENT TO GET YOU -- TO GET TO YOU, BUT IT REMINDS ME OF YOUR IMMIGRANT EXPENSE IN GENERAL WHERE YOU MIGHT BE A DOCTOR OR LAWYER AND THEN COME TO THE U.S. AND ARE TOLD YOU NEED MORE CREDENTIALS.

SIMBA: ABSOLUTELY AND WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL MEANS OF A FAMILY TO SUPPORT YOU, YOU ARE RELYING ON THE SCHOOL STAFF TO GUIDE YOU THROUGH THAT PROCESS, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE EXPERT, AND WHEN THEY LET YOU DOWN IT IS HEARTBREAKING, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE THE OTHER OPTIONS THAT MAY BE AMERICAN STUDENTS HAVE.

TORI: YEAH, SO WHY THIS STORY.

YOU HAVE COVERED SO MANY GREAT STORIES.

ANYBODY WHO IS IN COLLEGE OR APPLYING TO COLLEGE OR HAS A CHILD IN COLLEGE OR HAS ALWAYS HAD A SUSPICION THAT COLLEGE IS A SCAM.

KIRK: IF YOU LIVE NEAR A COLLEGE.

SIMBA: -- TORI: YOU ARE ELIMINATING THESE STORIES BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO TELL YOU THIS IS HOW IT WORKS.

KIRK: AMERICAN HIGHER EDUCATION IN OUR PSYCHE TAKES UP A BIG SPACE.

IT IS A LOT ABOUT GETTING INTO COLLEGE OR HOW DO I GET MY GET INTO COLLEGE, BUT WE ARE TRYING TO PULL BACK THE CURTAIN AND LOOK AT THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS IN THE BUSINESS OF COLLEGE ADMISSIONS, BUT ALSO LOOKING AT WHAT HAPPENS TO TRANSFER STUDENTS, BECAUSE THIS AFFECTS A LOT OF STUDENTS LIKE SIMBA.

WE ARE TALKING MILLIONS OF STUDENTS EVERY YEAR WHO TRY TO TRANSFER AND THERE CREDITS ARE NOT TRANSFERRING.

THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE THE OFFICE FINDS THAT FOUR IN 10 COLLEGE CREDITS DO NOT TRAVEL FROM INSTITUTION TO INSTITUTION, AND WHILE THIS AFFECTS COMMUNITY COLLEGE STUDENTS AND TECHNICAL COLLEGE STUDENTS COME THIS AFFECTS EVERYBODY TOO.

IF YOU ARE AT A PRIVATE INSTITUTION 90% DO NOT TRANSFER, SO THIS COST STUDENTS A LOT OF TIME, MONEY, AND IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY MANY STUDENTS DO NOT GRADUATE IN THIS COUNTRY IN FOUR YEARS.

TORI: YOU TALKED ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE.

IS ANYTHING BEING DONE?

IS ANYBODY REGULATING THIS?

KIRK: -- JON: UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES HAVE ALMOST NO ACCOUNTABILITY DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY GET HUNDRED 40 BEGIN DOLLARS PER YEAR IN TAXPAYER MONEY IN THE FORM OF PELL GRANT'’S THAT IS NOT LOAN AIDE RESEARCH FUNDING, THERE WAS ALMOST NO ACCOUNTABILITY TO SHOW FOR IT, SO THERE IS VERY LITTLE WE GET OUT OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES EXCEPT FOR INFORMATION, THE PROPORTION OF STUDENTS THAT THEY GRADUATE, AND EVEN THAT INFORMATION IS MISLEADING AND OFTEN PURPOSEFULLY SO.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT WE LOOKED AT TRANSFER, 33% OF THE PEOPLE THAT START COLLEGE NEVER FINISH.

THERE ARE 30 MILLION AMERICANS WHO STARTED COLLEGE I NEVER FINISH AND SPENT NOT ONLY MONEY BUT TIME.

THEY ARE VERY ANGRY, AND FOR SO MANY OF THEM, AND I TALKED TO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, THE TRANSFER PROBLEM IS THE BIGGEST FRUSTRATION.

THERE WERE TOLD THAT THERE CREDITS WERE TRANSFER BUT THEY WERE NOT TOLD THEY WOULD NOT TRANSFER INTO THEIR MAJOR, SO THEY ACQUIRED CREDITS THAT WOULD BE GENERAL EDUCATION TRANSFER CREDITS, BUT THEY HAVE TO TAKE A BUNCH OF OTHER COURSES OVER.

THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR COMMUNITY COLLEGE STUDENTS, 80% OF WHOM SAY WHEN THEY START THEY PLAN TO TRANSFER INTO GET A BACHELORS DEGREE.

IT IS ONLY ABOUT 12% TO ACTUALLY MANAGE TO SUCCEED IN DOING THAT.

KIRK: WHEN YOU TALK TO COLLEGE PRESIDENTS ABOUT THIS, THEY WILL SAY OUR STUDENTS ARE SWERVING OR THEY DO NOT WANT TO GET A DEGREE, BUT WHEN YOU SERVE COLLEGE STUDENTS 80%, 90% WENT TO SAY THEY WANT TO EARN A BACHELOR'’S DEGREE.

FOR VARIOUS REASONS THEY ARE NOT GETTING THROUGH.

WE ALSO FEATURE ANOTHER STUDENT WHO EARNED AN ASSOCIATE'’S DEGREE WHILE HE WAS STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL, FULL ASSOCIATES DEGREE, AND HE INTERVALS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, AND THEY ACCEPTED ZERO CREDITS.

THEY SAID WE DO NOT TAKE CREDITS FROM INSTITUTIONS WHO DO NOT GRANT FACTORS DEGREES.

TORI: I WOULD MENTION THE AP CREDITS AS WELL BECAUSE THAT IS A PROMISE A LOT OF COLLEGES MAKE THAT AP CREDITS WILL TRANSFER OVER.

THAT IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE.

THEY CAN SUBJECTIVELY DECIDE RANDOMLY IT SEEMS THAT IS NOT TRUE.

LISTENING TO THIS PODCAST, I WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOL AND I HAD FRIENDS WHO WERE IN PRIVATE SCHOOL, AND MY GUIDANCE COUNSELOR DID NOT KNOW WITH THE COMMON APP WAS, AND THEIR GUIDANCE WAS THEY HAD SPECIFIC SAT TUTOR'’S.

THERE WAS INVESTMENT IN THEIR COLLEGE PATH BEYOND ROTC OR TRADE, WHICH MORE AND MORE PEOPLE THOSE ARE APPEALING BECAUSE OF THE COSTS THAT THEY HAVE ACCRUED, BUT IT IS ABOUT EDUCATION, RIGHT?

THERE IS JUST NO ACCESS TO THAT.

ALL OF THESE THINGS EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW, AND NOBODY TALKS ABOUT IT.

JON: THERE IS ACCESS TO THAT FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD PRIVATE CONSULTANTS AND PRIVATE COLLEGE COUNSELORS.

FOUR-YEAR UNIVERSITIES DO NOT HAVE MUCH OF AN INCENTIVE TO ACCEPT THESE CREDITS, BECAUSE THEY WANT STUDENTS TO TAKE COURSES WITH THEM FOR COURSES AND ENROLLED THERE, SO IT IS A SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT WORK AND JUST NOT GETTING BETTER.

KIRK: WE SPOKE TO A RESEARCHER AND SHE TOLD ME THERE WAS A BIG INCENTIVE TO ACCEPT STUDENTS BUT NOT A BIG INCENTIVE TO ACCEPT THEIR CREDITS.

TORI: THERE IS A BIG INCENTIVE TO ACCEPT STUDENTS WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT HOW A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN GET IN LATER AS SOPHOMORES, AND THAT INCLUDES PEOPLE THAT MAYBE THEY WANTED TO BRING IN JUST BOTH DIVERSE CANDIDATES THAT DID NOT MAKE IT IN, AND MAY THE CHILDREN OF STAFF OR PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT ACADEMICALLY AT THAT LEVEL BUT COME IN AND SLIDE IN THE SECOND YEAR.

WHY IS THAT?

JON: STAFF ALUMNI, DONORS, THOSE STUDENTS WHO CANNOT GET IN THE FIRST YEAR ARE ENCOURAGED TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IN QUEBEC BACK AS A SOPHOMORE.

THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS UNIVERSITIES DO THIS.

COLLECTIVELY 25% OF FRESHMEN DO NOT COME BACK AS SOPHOMORES.

THE DROPOUT RATE IS ESSENTIALLY BETWEEN FRESHMAN AND SOPHOMORE YEAR, SO UNIVERSITIES NEED TO FILL THE SEATS OF THE SOPHOMORE YEAR, SO THEY HAVE ESSENTIALLY A WAITING LIST OF STUDENTS WHO ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR FRESHMAN YEAR AND COME BACK AS SOPHOMORES.

THE OTHER REASON UNIVERSITIES DO IT THIS WAY, TELL PEOPLE TO COME BACK AND SOPHOMORES WHO MIGHT NOT INITIALLY QUALIFY IS THAT THE RANKINGS IN U.S. NEWS AND OTHER VERY INFLUENTIAL RANKINGS MEASURED THE QUALITY OF THE INCOMING FRESHMAN.

THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT TRANSFER STUDENTS, SO THOSE STUDENTS ARE NOT REFLECTED IN THE RANKINGS IF THEY DO NOT START AS A FRESHMAN.

TORI: EVEN IF YOU TRANSFER, YOUR CREDITS MAY NOT TRANSFER EVEN IN THAT CASE?

JON: FIRST WHEN YOUR CREDITS TEND TO BE MORE GENERAL EDUCATION, SO GENERAL EDUCATION CREDITS, AND THESE SOPHOMORE ADMITS HAVE STARTED EXCLUSIVELY ANOTHER FOUR YEAR UNIVERSITIES.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT THE TRANSFER PROBLEM IS QUITE SO BAD THERE AS IT IS GOING FROM A COMMUNITY COLLEGE TO A FOUR YEAR UNIVERSITY.

TORI: I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT VARSITY BLUES, BECAUSE WE WERE TOGETHER IN THE NEWSROOM AND YOU ARE ALL OVER THAT.

HE WENT TO EVERY BIGWIG TRIAL.

YOU COVERED THE HECK OUT OF THAT.

THAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF THESE WEALTHY PEOPLE DOING EVERYTHING, AND HAVING EVERY ADVANTAGE.

THEY HAVE THE COACHES.

THEY HAVE EVERY PRIVILEGE AND THEY STILL CHEAT TO GET IN.

KIRK: AND WE USE THAT AS A JUMPING OFF POINT.

IF YOU HAVE A PEOPLE GUESSING SUBSCRIPTION YOU HAVE READ ABOUT LORI LOUGHLIN AND FELICITY HUFFMAN.

TORI: WHO BRIBE TO GET THE CHILDREN INTO PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES.

KIRK: PEOPLE PHOTOSHOP PICTURES OF THE KIDS TO MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE WATER POLO ATHLETES.

IT IS TO TELL YOU THINGS YOU DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE ADMISSIONS PROCESS AND THE MANY OTHER WAYS THAT RICH FAMILIES GAIN THE SYSTEM TO GET THEIR KIDS INTO THE RIGHT COLLEGE, SO WE LOOK DEEPLY AT EARLY DECISION OR SOME SCHOOLS ARE ADMITTING 50%, 60 PERCENT, 70% VIA EARLY DECISION, AND THAT PRIMARILY BENEFITS RICH FAMILIES, BECAUSE YOU ARE ACCEPTING AN OFFER BEFORE YOU CAN SEE YOUR FINANCIAL AID OFFER.

TORI: YOU TALKED ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE, RIGHT?

THERE IS AFFIRMATIVE ACTION FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE.

IT IS NOT ABOUT NECESSARILY GIVING EVERYONE THE SAME THING.

IT IS ABOUT EQUITY, RIGHT?

RAISING PEOPLE UP WHO MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES.

FROM YOUR SOURCES, WHAT DID THEY MAKE OF THAT RECENT DECISION ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION?

KIRK: ON RACE CONSCIOUS ADMISSIONS A LOT OF SOURCES ARE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THIS IS GOING TO DO TO THE INCOMING CLASS.

IT WILL BRAK -- WILL BLACK AND BROWN STUDENTS BE LESS LIKELY TO APPLY IF THEY DO NOT THINK THEIR RACE OR IDENTITY IS BEING CONSIDERED?

WE WILL NOT KNOW UNTIL NEXT YEAR WITH THE ACTUAL EFFECT IS.

THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT SCHOOLS CAN DO, RIGHT?

THERE IS A BILL ON BEACON HILL THAT WOULD BAN EARLY DECISION, BUT IF YOU CONTINUE TO ADMIT SO MANY RICH FAMILIES VIA EARLY DECISION YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY A TAX THAT SUPPORTS COMMUNITY COLLEGE STUDENTS.

WE LOOK AT SOME OF THE WAYS WEALTHY COMPANIES ARE PAYING CONSULTANTS TO COME IN AND WORK WITH THEIR EMPLOYEES TO HELP THEM DO THE APPLICATION PROCESS FOR THEM, BECAUSE IT IS BECOME SO CONVOLUTED, AND FAMILIES ARE TRYING TO GET AN EDGE HOWEVER THEY CAN, AND ONE OF OUR KEY TAKEAWAYS IS RICH FAMILIES WILL ALWAYS SEEK THE EDGE, AND IT IS ON THE INSTITUTIONS TO HOLD THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE.

JON: THE OVERARCHING THEME IS THAT UNIVERSITIES WORK ON THEIR OWN SELF-INTEREST, AND FOR SOME REASON WE AS A SOCIETY TEND NOT TO THINK THAT ABOUT UNIVERSITIES, BUT THEY ARE HUMAN INSTITUTIONS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER INSTITUTION AND IN SOME CASES WORSE.

IF YOU LOOK AT SCANDALS LIKE PENN STATE, USC, NOT JUST VARSITY BLUES BUT OTHER SCANDALS, YOU SEE THAT ACTING IN THE SELF-INTEREST.

THAT IS THE MOTIVATION OF UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES.

TORI: THEY ARE MAKING MONEY.

I WENT TO END QUICKLY WITH YOU.

WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE NOW?

WHERE DID YOU END UP?

SIMBA: I ENDED UP AT HARVARD.

TORI: HELL YEAH.

SIMBA: FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE A SUPPORT SYSTEM, MY WIFE AND FAMILY WERE ABLE TO GUIDE ME AND TAKE SACRIFICES AS WELL.

I ENDED UP WITH MY MASTERS IN EDUCATION LEADERSHIP, AND I AM HOPING TO GET BACK TO STUDENTS THINKING OF COMING TO COLLEGES AND THINKING ABOUT TRANSFERRING AND HELPING THEM GET TO A FOUR YEAR INSTITUTION.

TORI: WAS THIS PROCESS, DID IT INFLUENCE YOUR PATH MOVING FORWARD?

SIMBA: IT DEFINITELY DID INFLUENCE THIS PATH MOVING FORWARD.

I REALIZED I WAS IN THIS POSITION 15 YEARS AGO, AND THIS IS MY CHANCE TO GIVE BACK ESPECIALLY KNOWING THE SYSTEM A LITTLE BETTER NOW.

TORI: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

TORI: THANK YOU -- HUMAN -- SIMBA: THANK YOU.

TORI: EPISODES OF COLLAGEN COVERED WILL BE AVAILABLE.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

I AM TORI BEDFORD.

THANK YOU.

GOOD NIGHT.

♪ ♪