♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AMERICA'S TOP DIPLOMAT IS IN ISRAEL AS THE HEZBOLLAH CHIEF SAYS A WIDER WAR IS REALISTIC.

I'M JOINED BY MIDDLE EAST EXPERT AND FORMER KNESSET MEMBER TO DISCUSS THESE LOOMING FEARS.

>>> AND THE DEBATE ABOUT NATURAL ABILITIES AND GENDER IN SPORTS.

OLYMPIC MEDALIST CASTER SEMENYA SHARES HER STORY.

>>> THEN HOW NANCY PELOSI'S FAMILY BECAME A TARGET AFTER JANUARY 6th.

CHRISTIANE SPEAKS TO THE FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER'S DAUGHTER, FILMMAKER ALEXANDRA PELOSI ABOUT HER NEW DOCUMENTARY, "THE INSURRECTIONIST NEXT DOOR."

>>> ALSO AHEAD, THE SURGE IN ANTI-SEMITISM IN AMERICA.

HARI SREENIVASAN TALKS TO NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

AS THE SIEGE IN GAZA CONTINUES AND THE CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL MOUNTS, IN THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS, THERE ARE DOZENS OF CASUALTIES AFTER AN INCIDENT NEAR GAZA'S AL SHIFA HOSPITAL.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO MULTIPLE VIDEOS FROM THE SCENE AND THE PALESTINIAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH IN GAZA.

THE CAUSE IS NOT IMMEDIATELY CLEAR.

THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE MEANTIME IS IN ISRAEL.

SINCE THE COUNTRY LAUNCHED ITS WAR AGAINST HAMAS AFTER THE TRAGEDY OF OCTOBER 7th, THE RHETORIC FROM WASHINGTON HAS BEEN THAT ISRAEL HAS A, QUOTE, RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOW CALLING FOR HUMANITARIAN PAUSES AND THE PROTECTION OF CIVILIANS.

>> WE STAND STRONGLY FOR THE PROPOSITION THAT ISRAEL HAS NOT ONLY THE RIGHT BUT THE OBLIGATION TO DEFEND ITSELF AND DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAKE SURE THAT OCTOBER 7th CAN NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT WAS JUST MADE CLEAR THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE PROTECTION OF CIVILIANS WHO WERE CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE OF HAMAS' MAKING, THAT EVERYTHING BE DONE TO PROTECT THEM AND BRING ASSISTANCE TO THOSE WHO SO DESPERATELY NEED IT AND WERE NOT IN ANY WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

SO WE'RE WORKING ON ALL OF THAT TOGETHER.

BUT WE HAVE A SHARED DETERMINATION.

>> BLINKEN IS THEN TRAVELING TO JORDAN AS THE U.S. SEEKS TO AVOID A LARGER REGIONAL CONFLICT.

AND AT THE LEBANESE BORDER, THE IDF SAYS IT'S ON, QUOTE, VERY HIGH ALERT AFTER UNUSUALLY FIERCE EXCHANGES OF FIRE THERE.

NOW, THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH IS SPEAKING OUT PUBLICLY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE HAMAS' ATTACK NEARLY A MONTH AGO.

AN OPERATION HE SAYS WAS, QUOTE, 100% PALESTINIAN.

HE ALSO SAID THERE IS A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY OF WAR ESCALATING.

BEL TREW IS A CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT AT THE INDEPENDENT, HAS SPENT YEARS REPORTING FROM INSIDE LEBANON, COVERING MULTIPLE WARS BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL.

AND KSENIA SVETLOVA IS BACK WITH US.

SHE'S A FORMER OF THE ISRAELI KNESSET.

THEY JOIN ME FROM TEL AVIV.

BEL, LET ME FIRST GET YOU TO RESPOND.

I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH SOURCES ABOUT THE NEWS WE JUST REPORTED ABOUT DOZENS OF CASUALTIES AT THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL IN GAZA.

MORE DETAILS ARE COMING OUT.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

>> WELL, I'VE JUST BEEN SPEAKING TO DOCTORS ON THE GROUND.

THE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL IS ONE OF THE LARGEST HOSPITALS IN GAZA.

THERE'S NOT JUST AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE BEING TREATED THERE WHO ARE WOUNDED, BUT THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF DISPLACED PEOPLE SHELTERING WITHIN THE GROUNDS.

THE DOCTOR SAID IT WAS AN ISRAELI STRIKE.

IT HIT THIS AFTERNOON AS A CONVOY OF AMBULANCES WERE PREPARING TO TAKE PEOPLE FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH OF THE TRIP, HOPEFULLY TO EXIT OUT THROUGH EGYPT.

I'VE REACHED OUT TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

THEY SAID THEY WILL GET BACK TO ME.

THEY HAVEN'T CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS STRIKE.

THEY HAVEN'T ALSO CONFIRMED THAT IT IS THEIR MUNITIONS.

BUT THE MOMENT THE SCENES FROM THE GROUND SHOW AN AWFUL LOT OF WOUNDED PEOPLE, BLOOD EVERYWHERE.

AT LEAST ONE DAMAGED AMBULANCE.

AND THE PALESTINIANS ARE SAYING AS MANY AS 6 0 COULD BE DEAD.

AGAIN, WE CANNOT VERIFY THAT NUMBER RIGHT NOW.

>> WE'LL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW ANY DEVELOPMENTS AND HEADLINES WE ARE HEARING AS WELL.

IN THE MEANTIME, KSENIA, THIS COMES AS U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN IS IN TEL AVIV.

HE MET WITH THE PRESIDENT OF ISRAEL AND THE PRIME MINISTER.

IT'S A TIGHT ROPE THAT HE IS WALKING HERE BECAUSE HE'S REITERATED THE U.S. SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL'S RIGHT AND DUTY TO DEFEND ITSELF.

BUT HE ALSO SAID HOW ISRAEL DEFENDS ITSELF REALLY MATTERS, AND THE FOCUS SHOULD BE ON LIMITING CIVILIANS.

HOW WAS THAT RECEIVED WITHIN ISRAEL?

>> SO I BELIEVE THAT SECRETARY BLINKEN JUST REPEATED WHAT WAS ALREADY SAID BY PRESIDENT BIDEN DURING HIS VISIT AND DURING HIS PHONE CONVERSATIONS WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, THAT ISRAEL HAS ABSOLUTELY FULL RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.

BUT IT HAS TO FOLLOW THE INTERNATIONAL LEGISLATION.

IT HAS TO FOLLOW THE RED LINES INSIDE GAZA.

SO AS FOR THE CURRENT INCIDENT IN SHIFA, WE STILL DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THERE EXACTLY.

FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE, THERE IS NO RESPONSE.

JUST LIKE BEL SAID, THERE IS NO OFFICIAL VERSION OF THIS EVENT.

I JUST HAVE TO REMIND THAT JUST LAST WEEK, THEY RELEASED AERIAL FOOTAGE FROM THE AREA FROM WHERE THE SHIFA HOSPITAL IS LOCATED, AND IT CLAIMED THAT FOR YEARS THERE IS A CENTRAL COMMAND OF HAMAS HIDES THERE UNDERGROUND, UNDERNEATH THE HOSPITAL.

AND THERE ARE MANY MILITANTS IN THIS HOSPITAL, BUT ON THE GROUND FLOORS THAT YOU DON'T REALLY SEE.

SO IS THESE TWO THINGS CONNECTED?

WE STILL DON'T KNOW AS FOR NOW.

BUT IN ANY CASE, I HAVE TO TELL YOU BIANNA, IN MY PERSONAL VIEW, AND THIS IS WHAT MANY EXPERTS AND ANALYSTS AND POLITICIANS AND FORMER POLITICIANS ARE SAYING.

ISRAEL HAS TO DEFEND THE CIVILIANS IN GAZA NOT BECAUSE ANTONY BLINKEN ASKS FOR IT AND NOT BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN ASKS FOR IT.

BECAUSE THIS IS A VITAL INTEREST OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

THE NEXT DAY AFTER HAMAS -- AND THIS WAS -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE GOAL OF THE IDF AND THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL TO ELIMINATE HAMAS.

SUPPOSE THERE IS NO HAMAS.

YOU STILL HAVE TO TALK TO SOMEONE IN GAZA.

YOU STILL HAVE TO TALK TO THE SAME CIVILIANS THAT ARE BEING SO SEVERELY HIT RIGHT NOW AND IN MANY DIFFERENT OCCASIONS BEFORE AS WELL.

YOU STILL NEED TO DEVELOP A DIALOGUE.

AND IF YOU WANT TO BUILD SOME MODERATE RULE IN GAZA, THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE TO PROMISE TODAY, YOU HAVE TO VOUCH TODAY FOR THE CIVILIANS THAT YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE IN ORDER TO SAFEGUARD THEIR LIVES.

>> YEAH, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALSO HEARD FROM SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN, SAYING THAT AFTER THIS OPERATION CONDUCTED BY ISRAEL, THE WORLD AND THE REGION CANNOT GO BACK TO STATUS QUO OF OCTOBER 6th, AND THERE HAS TO BE ROOM FOR NEGOTIATION FOR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND FOR ANOTHER PARTY FOR ISRAEL TO BE WORKING WITH IN THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY.

BEL, LET'S GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THE OTHER MAJOR HEADLINE BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS WAITING TO HEAR FROM HASSAN NASRALLAH, THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH TODAY AND HIS SPEECH.

AGAIN, PUTTING EVERYTHING INTO PERSPECTIVE, EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A SPEECH THAT WOULD HAVE ALARMED THE WORLD HAD IT OCCURRED OCTOBER 6th.

BUT GIVEN THE ANTICIPATION AND THE CONCERN THAT PERHAPS WE COULD SEE WIDER ESCALATION WITHIN THE REGION, THERE WAS SOME SIGH OF RELIEF THAT THIS WASN'T AS HEATED RHETORIC FROM NASRALLAH AS MANY HAD EXPECTED.

LET'S PLAY SOME SOUND FROM HIM AND THEN HAVE YOU RESPOND AFTER.

>> Translator: THE WORRY IS THAT THE POSSIBILITY OF THIS FRONT ACTUALLY ESCALATING OR GOING INTO A FULLY FLEDGED WAR OR BECOMING A WIDER WAR IS A REALISTIC ONE.

IT CAN HAPPEN, AND THE ENEMY HAS TO MAKE EVERY PROVISION FOR THIS.

AND I'M SURE THEY DO MAKE EVERY PROVISION FOR THIS, AND I'M SURE THEY DO THINK ABOUT IT.

>> SO HE SAID A WAR CAN HAPPEN.

JUST IN READING AND PARSING EVERY WORD HE SAID, HE DIDN'T SAY A WAR WILL HAPPEN, MEANING THEIR INVOLVEMENT.

HOW DID YOU READ WHAT HE SAID AND WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU?

>> THE KEY POINT HERE IS THAT THERE WAS NO DECLARATION OF WAR, AND THAT WAS WHAT PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT.

I HAD A LATE NIGHT BRIEFING, VERY DEEP ON BACKGROUND BRIEFING WITH ISRAELI TOP OFFICIALS, MILITARY OFFICIALS.

THEY WERE SAYING THEY WERE ALARMED BY THE ATTACKS THAT HAD ESCALATED YESTERDAY ALONG THE BORDER, ALL ALONG THE BORDER.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS VERY, VERY, HEAVY FIRE, AND THERE WAS SOME INDICATIONS THAT THIS SPEECH COULD BE THE MOMENT THAT NASRALLAH ANNOUNCES THAT LEBANON IS IN A WAR WITH ISRAEL.

THE KEY THING IS THAT HE SAID IT COULD HAPPEN.

IT WASN'T A DECLARATION OF WAR.

HE SAID THERE WAS VERY MUCH A PALESTINIAN OPERATION, A PALESTINIAN CAUSE.

HE KEPT TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS WAS PALESTINIAN, NOT REGIONAL.

I THINK THE OTHER THING, THE MESSAGING HE'S TELLING HIS SUPPORTERS, OBVIOUSLY HE'S FACING A LOT OF PRESSURE.

HEZBOLLAH IS FACING A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM WITHIN ITS AFFILIATED RANKS WHO ARE PUTTING PRESSURE ON HEZBOLLAH TO HIT ISRAEL HARDER.

HE TALKED ABOUT THE GAINS THEY'VE ALREADY MADE.

HE SAID THE STRIKES ON ISRAEL HAD CAUSED ISRAELI TO MOVE A THIRD OF ISRAELI FORCES UP NORTH.

YOU KNOW, HALF THE NAVAL FORCES.

AGAIN, I CAN'T CONFIRM THOSE FIGURES.

THE POINT WAS HE'S SAYING IT'S CAUSED ISRAEL TO HAVE TO FIGHT EFFECTIVELY ON TWO FRONTS, WHICH WAS HELPING WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN GAZA.

I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT.

THE OTHER THING HE SAID IS HE VERY MUCH WAS TALKING TO THE U.S.

HE SAID MANY, MANY TIMES IN THIS SPEECH, THE U.S. COULD STOP THIS BY CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA AND ENSURING THAT ISRAEL FOLLOWS SUIT.

AND THAT, I THINK, IS QUITE KEY MESSAGING GIVEN BLINKEN WAS HERE IN ISRAEL DOING JUST THAT.

EVEN THOUGH THIS WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLY ALARMING SPEECH ON THE 6th OF OCTOBER, ACTUALLY COMES ACROSS AS FAIRLY CAUTIOUS.

>> KSENIA, IS THAT THE TAKE IN ISRAEL AMONG GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ALONG WITH THE SIGH OF RELIEF BECAUSE I DID SEE SOME DOOMSDAY SCENARIO TODAY, I HAVE TO ADMIT, THAT WERE VERY WORRYING AND FRIGHTENING, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE TRAUMA OF THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

BUT ALONG WITH THAT, THERE IS THIS UNDERSTANDING THAT FIRST OF ALL, ISRAEL HAS NEVER TRUST NASRALLAH.

HE CAN SAY ONE THING.

THEN HE CAN DO THE NEXT DAY SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT.

WHILE WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE IS NOT INTERESTED TO WASTE ALL OF HIS FIREPOWER, MANPOWER RIGHT NOW FOR HAMAS.

HE WILL BE WAITING FOR AN ORDER FROM TEHRAN ESSENTIALLY TO ACTIVATE EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS UNDER HIS COMMAND IN ORDER TO HARM ISRAEL WHEN IT'S LEAST EXPECTING THIS, IN THIS MOMENT.

SO GIVEN THE BUILDUP, YES, YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT HE WOULD DECLARE A WAR OR AT LEAST FORMALLY, YOU KNOW, THAT NASRALLAH AND HEZBOLLAH IS JOINING THE CONFLICT AGAINST ISRAEL ALONG WITH THE YEMEN WHO HE MENTIONED AND THE SYRIANS AND THE GAZANS THEMSELVES.

HE ALSO SAID SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

HE SAID, WE CANNOT HARM ISRAEL IN JUST ONE STRIKE.

WE CANNOT DO IT YET.

WHEN WILL WE BE ABLE TO DO IT?

THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

THAT'S WHY ISRAEL WILL NOT SLEEP, YOU KNOW, SOUND TONIGHT AND ALSO TOMORROW, BECAUSE THIS FRONT, IF IT'S NOT OPEN FORMALLY, IT MIGHT BE OPEN SOMEDAY SOON.

>> IT'S CLEAR, THOUGH, THAT THE PRICE THAT HEZBOLLAH PAID AFTER 2006 STILL HAUNTS HIM AS WELL, AS DOES THE IMPACT IT HAD ON LEBANON AS A WHOLE AFTER THE WAR WITH ISRAEL THEN.

BEL, LET ME ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION BECAUSE ANOTHER BIG PRIORITY IN THE REGION AND FOR SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN IS WATCHING CLOSELY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK.

IN THE PAST THREE WEEKS, OVER 100 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT SETTLER VIOLENCE THERE AND WHAT ISRAEL IS OR ISN'T DOING TO CONTAIN THAT.

I WANT TO READ AN EDITORIAL FROM AN ISRAELI NEWSPAPER THAT READS, IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT COME TO ITS SENSES IMMEDIATELY AND RESPOND DECISIVELY TO THE ACTIONS OF THE SETTLERS IN THE TERRITORIES, IT WILL BE ADDING ANOTHER CATASTROPHE TO ITS RECORD OF FAILURES.

BEL, HOW DO YOU VIEW THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE THUS FAR FROM PRESSURE BOTH INTERNALLY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, BUT OBVIOUSLY FROM ITS CLOSEST ALLY, THE UNITED STATES, AS WELL?

>> CERTAINLY WE'VE SEEN AN UPTICK ACROSSED BOARD IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK IN TERMS OF ATTACKS BY SETTLERS BUT ALSO PEOPLE BEING FORCED FROM THEIR LANDS AND ALSO IN TERMS OF NUMBERS OF ARRESTS AND ALSO DEATHS OF PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK.

THESE ARE NUMBERS BY THE WAY COMING FROM THE U.N.

THEY SAY IN 2021, THERE WAS ABOUT ONE SETTLER ATTACK A DAY.

NOW SINCE 7th OF OCTOBER, THAT'S ON AVERAGE SEVEN ATTACKS A DAY.

AT LEAST 864 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FORCED FROM THEIR HOMES.

THE U.N. IS SAYING THIS IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE OF ATTACKS IN THE WEST BANK, AND IT'S CAUSING A BIG PROBLEM.

I PUT THIS TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

I ASKED THEM BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SOME DISTURBING VIDEOS BEING SHARED SHOWING PEOPLE IN MILITARY UNIFORMS ABUSING PALESTINIANS.

THEY SAID THEY ARE INVESTIGATING THIS, PARTICULARLY THE ACCOUNTS OF ABUSE BY SOLDIERS, AND THEY ARE MONITORING THE SITUATION.

BUT, AGAIN, ISRAEL IS COMING UNDER PRESSURE BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE AS THE WAR IS HAPPENING IN GAZA, SETTLERS WITHIN THE WEST BANK ARE USING THAT MOMENT TO INCREASE FORCIBLE DISPLACEMENTS AND ATTACKS.

AND IF THAT ISN'T REINED IN, THEY'RE GOING TO COME UNDER PRESSURE INTERNATIONALLY AS WELL.

>> SOME OF THESE SETTLERS WE'VE SEEN VIDEOS OF, THEY SEEM EMBOLDENED TOO, ACTUALLY TAKING ON THE MILITARY, THE IDF SOLDIERS IN SOME SKIRMISHES THAT WE'VE SEEN AS WELL.

BEL TREW, KSENIA SVETLOVA, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND ANALYSIS.

>>> WELL, TURNING NOW TO DOMESTIC CHALLENGES FACING THE UNITED STATES.

VOTING RIGHTS CAMPAIGNERS ARE CALLING THE NEW SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, MIKE JOHNSON, THE MOST POWERFUL ELECTION DENIER IN WASHINGTON.

HIS EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION ARE RAISING ALARMS ABOUT HIS ROLE IN THE NEXT ELECTION IN 2024 AS WELL, WHICH MAKES A NEW HBO DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE INSURRECTIONIST NEXT DOOR" EVEN MORE TIMELY.

THE FILMMAKER IS ALEXANDRA PELOSI.

IF YOU RECOGNIZE HER LAST NAME, HER MOTHER IS FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE NANCY PELOSI AND WAS PERSONALLY TARGETED ON JANUARY 6th.

IT'S ABOUT BUILDING BRIDGES AS PELOSI TRAVELS ACROSS AMERICA TO SPEAK TO SOME OF THOSE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

HERE'S A CLIP.

>> SO HOW DID YOU GET INTO THE CAPITOL?

>> I JUST WALKED RIGHT IN.

>> JANUARY 6th REALLY ACTIVATED YOU.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT WAS IT INSIDE OF YOU THAT MADE YOU THINK, I'M GOING TO GO INSIDE THE CAPITOL?

>> I'VE BEEN ON THE ROAD MEETING SOME OF THE GEN SIXERS.

>> DID YOU GO TO THE CAPITOL TO ASSASSINATE MY MOTHER?

>> NO.

>> YOU HAVE YOUR MAGA TATTOO AND YOUR TRUMP SOCKS.

YOU'RE THE FIRST JANUARY 6thER TO WALK IN AND TAKE A FELONY CHARGE.

>> IT WAS A PEACEFUL PROTEST THAT WAS HIJACKED.

>> JOHNNY, WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING?

>> I'VE BEEN WRONG BEFORE.

>> DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WERE A LITTLE BRAINWASHED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> I FEEL SO REMORSEFUL FOR WHAT I DID THAT DAY.

>> THE LEFT SAYS THAT YOU'RE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.

THE RIGHT SAYS YOU'RE ALL JUST TOURISTS.

BUT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT -- >> WOW.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH ALEXANDRA PELOSI ABOUT SEARCHING FOR CLOSURE IN A DEEPLY DIVIDED AMERICA.

>> ALEXANDRA PELOSI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR DOCS, A LOT OF THEM HAVE BEEN PERSONAL, AND THIS ONE MOST ESPECIALLY.

YOU WERE THERE, BUT SO WAS YOUR MOTHER ON JANUARY 6th.

AND FRANKLY THE PEOPLE WHO WENT AND DESECRATED AND STORMED HER OFFICE AND WERE LOOKING FOR HER, IT WAS A SCARY MOMENT.

AND AT ONE POINT YOU ASKED ONE OF YOUR INTERVIEWEES, DID YOU GO TO ASSASSINATE MY MOM?

WERE YOU TRYING TO FIND THAT OUT?

WHAT WAS THEIR ACTUAL AIM TOWARDS YOUR OWN MOTHER?

>> FOR ME, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th AS YOU MENTIONED, AND I SAW THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE WINDOW.

AND MY 16-YEAR-OLD SON WAS THE ONE WHO CALLED AND SAID, WHAT IF THEY STORM THE CAPITOL?

ALL THE POLICE SAID, NO, THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

BUT I DID SEE THEM.

I COULD SEE THEIR FACES FROM THE WINDOW.

AND I ALWAYS HAD THIS BURNING, YOU KNOW, INSIDE OF ME.

I REALLY WANTED TO KNOW WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY EVACUATED THE BUILDING.

WE WERE TWO MINUTES AWAY FROM THE SPEAKER'S LOBBY.

I JUST REALLY NEVER GOT THE ANSWER.

SO THAT'S WHAT THIS FILM IS.

I SPENT TWO YEARS ON THE ROAD TRYING TO MEET PEOPLE, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS INSIDE OF THEM THAT INSPIRED THEM TO COME TO THE CAPITOL THAT DAY.

>> BUT, AGAIN, SPECIFICALLY TO YOUR PERSONAL, I MEAN THIS IS YOUR MOTHER, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WHO WAS A TARGET AND A RORSCHACH TEST ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

AND YOUR FATHER HAS BEEN ATTACKED, YOU KNOW, GRIEVOUSLY IN THE INTERVENING TIME.

DID YOU FIND OUT WHY THEY WANTED TO AND WHETHER THEY WANTED TO DO YOUR OWN MOTHER HARM?

>> NO.

I DIDN'T GET ANY REAL ANSWERS.

I DIDN'T GET THE CLOSURE I WAS LOOKING FOR IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE ASKING.

WHAT I DID -- I DID NOT MEET WITH ANY OF THE PEOPLE -- THE PROUD BOYS AND THE OATH KEEPERS, THE MILITANT -- YOU KNOW, THE HATE GROUPS, THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE IN JAIL RIGHT NOW, THAT WERE PLOTTING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT.

I MET WITH MORE OF THE PEOPLE THAT EVERYONE WHO PLED TO MOSTLY MISDEMEANORS FOR PARTICIPATING IN -- WE CALL THEM THE NORMIES BECAUSE IN THE TRIAL, THE PROUD BOYS TRIAL, ONE OF THE PROUD BOYS HAD SENT A MESSAGE ON TELEGRAM TO HIS FOLLOWERS THAT DAY THAT SAID, WE'RE GOING TO GET THE NORMIES TO BURN THE CITY TO ASH TODAY.

>> MM-HMM.

>> AND SO THE IDEA OF THE NORMIES WAS WHAT I WAS INTERESTED.

WHO WERE THE NORMIES THAT THE PROUD BOYS WERE USING AS THEIR CHORUS?

>> LET ME PLAY A CLIP BECAUSE THE NORMIES, YOU TALK ABOUT THIS WITH JOHNNY HARRIS.

HERE'S A CLIP.

>> DO YOU REALIZE THAT THE MILITANT ORGANIZATIONS THAT WERE THERE TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT NEEDED A CHORUS OF LITTLE PEOPLE?

THEY CALLED THEM NORMIES, PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT WERE JUST THE FOOLS.

THEY WERE USING YOU.

>> NOBODY USED ME.

I WENT THERE OF MY OWN FREE WILL.

NOBODY COME UP AND SAID, HEY, NORMIE, WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS TODAY.

NOBODY APPROACHED ME TRYING TO GET ME TO DO ANYTHING.

I DID STUPID [ BLEEP ] ON MY OWN.

>> SO WE KNOW THAT HE GOT, I THINK, A SEVEN-MONTH SENTENCE.

I MEAN WHAT DO YOU CALL A NORMIE?

>> WELL, I THINK THEY'RE JUST TRUE BELIEVERS IN THE CULT OF TRUMP, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT WERE WILLING TO GET OFF THEIR COUCH AND DRIVE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND BREAK INTO THE UNITED STATES CAPITOL WITH THE INTENTIONS OF TRYING TO DELAY, YOU KNOW, THE VOTE COUNT.

I JUST THINK THAT -- I THINK THEY'RE NOT ALL TERRIBLE PEOPLE.

THEY JUST DID SOME TERRIBLE THINGS THAT DAY.

I DON'T THINK OF THEM AS BEING VIOLENT AND DANGEROUS.

THEY'RE NOT THE PROUD BOYS.

THEY'RE NOT THE OATH KEEPERS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS MADE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT DEFENDANTS.

THEY HAVE SEPARATED THE PEOPLE THAT REALLY WERE THERE TO DO HARM, MAYBE HANG MIKE PENCE.

>> HANG MIKE PENCE!

HANG MIKE PENCE!

>> MAYBE PUT A BULLET IN NANCY PELOSI'S NOGGIN AS SOME OF THEM DECLARED THEY WERE THERE TO DO.

I THINK THESE ARE SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE YOUR NEIGHBORS.

THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED "THE INSURRECTIONIST NEXT DOOR."

WE HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR NEIGHBORS AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE PARTICIPATING IN THE NEXT ELECTION, AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO TRY TO ENGAGE.

>> WHAT SHOULD THE REST OF THE WORLD MAKE OF WHAT HAS UNFOLDED AND WHAT THEY'RE HEARING IN YOUR DOCUMENTARY, "THE INSURRECTIONIST NEXT DOOR"?

GIVEN, YOU KNOW, THE TRIBALIZATION WE SEE AND THE POLARIZATION ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THE ATTACK ON DEMOCRACY?

>> IN THE END, I REALLY FELT THAT TALKING TO THESE PEOPLE, IT WAS LIKE A COLLECTION, A MOSAIC OF BROKEN AMERICA.

IT JUST GIVES YOU A PORTRAIT OF HOW BROKEN THIS COUNTRY IS RIGHT NOW.

IT'S ABOUT -- I MEAN IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE GROW UP IN POVERTY.

THERE'S THIS THING CALLED THE AMERICAN DREAM THAT DIDN'T REALLY COME THROUGH FOR THEM.

THAT WE'RE REALLY NOT DOING, AS A COUNTRY, THE BEST WE CAN.

IT'S MANIFESTING ITSELF IN POLITICS IN A WEIRD WAY, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THIS FILM IS HOW BROKEN THIS COUNTRY IS RIGHT NOW.

>> AND THE CURRENT SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WHO IS AN ELECTION DENIER AND, YOU KNOW, AIDED AND ABETTED A LOT OF THE ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, IS SITTING IN YOUR MOTHER'S FORMER OFFICE.

>> YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY DARK THOUGHT.

WOW.

OKAY.

SO I WAS TRYING -- THIS WHOLE MISSION WAS ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE PEACE.

I HAD THIS WHOLE ABE LINCOLN, CHARITY TOWARDS ALL, MALICE TOWARDS NONE.

I WAS REALLY TRYING TO BRING SOME CLOSURE TO THIS JANUARY 6th, BUT I THINK THAT THE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE HAVE DECIDED THAT THEY HAVE OTHER PLANS FOR THIS COUNTRY, AND THEY'RE TAKING IT IN A MUCH DARKER DIRECTION.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T BROUGHT CLOSURE.

YOU HAVEN'T MANAGED TO BRIDGE THE GULF, BUT YOU HAVE MANAGED TO TALK TO ALL THESE PEOPLE AND FIGURE OUT WHO ARE OUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS.

ONE FINAL QUESTION.

A RECENT POLL SHOWS THE SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN THE UNITED STATES IS RISING.

OBVIOUSLY, AS I SAID, YOUR OWN FAMILY HAS BEEN A VICTIM OF THAT.

YOUR FATHER WAS BRUTALLY ATTACKED LAST YEAR.

IT'S A REALLY SCARY THOUGHT.

>> YOU KNOW, A STORM IS COMING, I WOULD SAY.

I WOULD SAY I FEEL IT EVERY DAY, AND IT'S A VERY FRIGHTENING THOUGHT.

WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TO TRY TO MAKE PEACE.

WE HAVE TO TRY TO MAKE PEACE BEFORE, YOU KNOW, IT GETS -- I MEAN I DON'T EVEN WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT CONSIDERING WHAT MY FAMILY HAS BEEN THROUGH.

I JUST -- YEAH.

SO YOU'RE ENDING THIS ON A REALLY DARK NOTE.

OKAY.

>> WELL, ALEXANDRA PELOSI, I'M SORRY.

LET'S HOPE THINGS DO GET BETTER.

BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH, ALEXANDRA PELOSI.

"THE INSURRECTIONIST NEXT DOOR."

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WELL, COMING UP, I WILL BE SPEAKING WITH OLYMPIC CHAMPION CASTER SEMENYA AS SHE OPENS UP ABOUT HER STORY AND GENDER DISCRIMINATION IN SPORT.

>>> BUT FIRST, WE RETURN TO THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR AND THE GLOBAL REPERCUSSIONS.

HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, ANTI-SEMITISM THREATS HAVE REACHED HISTORIC LEVELS AND ANTI-ARAB SENTIMENTS ARE ON THE RISE.

COLLEGE CAMPUSES ARE STRUGGLING TO MANAGE THE OUTBREAK OF PROTESTS AND UPTICK IN HATE.

HARI SREENIVASAN TALKS TO NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM ABOUT HOW THIS CONFLICT IS DIVIDING AMERICA.

>> JULIETTE KAYYEM, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

LET'S START WITH SOME OF THE IMAGES WE HAVE SEEN OF VERY FEW NUMBERS OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO LEAVE GAZA AND TO GET INTO EGYPT.

WE SHOULD SAY THAT FOR A LOT OF THESE, THESE ARE AMERICANS WHO ARE FINALLY GETTING A WAY OUT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE COMPLEXITY IN ORGANIZING THIS AND HOW LONG THIS COULD TAKE.

>> RIGHT.

THIS WILL TAKE A VERY LONG TIME.

THE NUMBERS WE'RE SEEING ARE MERE TRICKLES FROM THE COUPLE HUNDRED THAT WE KNOW OF U.S. CITIZENS THAT ARE STUCK IN GAZA RIGHT NOW.

THE COMPLEXITY IS THIS, IS THAT BASICALLY THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO FIND AN HONEST BROKER TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MOVEMENT OF THE CITIZENS IS SAFE.

THAT WILL PROBABLY BE A THIRD PARTY, EITHER EGYPT IN TERMS OF GETTING THAT PASSAGE.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN GET SAFELY TO THE BORDER AND THEN THROUGH THE BORDER.

ONCE THEY'RE IN EGYPT, THEY'RE TAKEN CARE OF.

WHAT THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T WANT TO DO, AT LEAST RIGHT NOW, IS TO HAVE ANY MILITARY PRESENCE THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE'RE GETTING INVOLVED ON THE GROUND TO ASSIST IN EVEN THE EXTRACTION OF OUR CITIZENS.

SO YOU HEAR PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, WELL, THE NAVY'S THERE.

WHY CAN'T WE GET A SHIP THERE?

IT'S NOT THAT EASY.

OUR SHIPS WOULD THEN BE VULNERABLE IF THEY'RE ATTACKED OR ANYTHING HAPPENS.

THEN YOU'RE INCREASING THE THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES AND TO THOSE CITIZENS.

HARRY, THERE'S A THIRD FACTOR, IS WHAT DO THE U.S. CITIZENS WANT TO DO THERE?

IT'S TERRIFYING THERE AS WE KNOW.

THEY'RE STUCK IN GAZA CITY.

TO GET THEM TO FEEL CONFIDENT TO LEAVE ONTO OPEN ROADS, DOWN GAZA TO EGYPT, IS ALSO A -- BASICALLY THEY'RE GOING TO BE MAKING THEIR OWN RISK CALCULATION AT THIS STAGE.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CHRISTOPHER WRAY, THE HEAD OF THE FBI.

>> YEAH.

>> WHO TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF CONGRESS EARLIER THIS WEEK.

HE HAD A LOT OF DIFFERENT WARNINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, I GUESS ONE OF THE HEADLINES WAS TO RAISE THE THREAT LEVEL BECAUSE HE IS CONCERNED ABOUT ATTACKS HERE ON U.S.

SOIL BY A VARYING NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ACTORS.

>> YEAH.

>> WHY DOES THE FBI TAKE THIS STEP NOW?

>> RIGHT.

SO IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TERROR ATTACK BY HAMAS, THE THREAT LEVELS -- THERE WAS A WARNING TO LOCAL AND STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THEN THAT GETS VERY SPECIFIC IN WHICH LOCAL AND STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE TOLD BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, THE JEWISH COMMUNITY IS UNDER PARTICULAR THREAT BECAUSE OF WHAT WE WERE SEEING ONLINE OR WHAT THE U.S. WAS SEEING ONLINE AND BECAUSE OF OBVIOUSLY THE ATMOSPHERICS.

THEN THAT, A THIRD TIME, INCREASES TO AN OVERALL INCREASE IN THE NATIONAL THREAT LEVEL.

WE DON'T USE A COLOR SYSTEM ANYMORE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, THE FBI DIRECTOR, THEN TESTIFIES TO SAY IT IS ESSENTIALLY OFF THE CHARTS NOW.

THAT'S HAPPENING FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

ONE IS, OF COURSE, THE CONFLICT ABROAD IS AN MIMATING A LOT OF POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS INTERESTS HERE THAT ARE, FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW, THE APPROPRIATE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION.

BUT IN SOME INSTANCES DO BECOME VIOLENT.

THE SECOND IS THE RIGHT-WING WHITE SUPREMACIST APPARATUS THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ANTI-SEMITIC, IS PLAYING OFF OF THIS CONFLICT TO DRAW OTHERS INTO THEIR SORT OF HISTORIC ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE THIRD PIECE IS, OF COURSE, FOREIGN ACTORS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR FIGHTS, OUR POLITICAL FIGHTS, OUR RELIGIOUS FIGHTS.

AND I MEAN, YOU KNOW, VERBAL FIGHTS AND PROTESTS, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF IT AND AMPLIFYING AND CREATING DISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

SO ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS COMBINED HAVE NOW INCREASED THE THREAT ENVIRONMENT FOR, OF COURSE, MUSLIM AMERICANS, ARAB-AMERICANS, BUT IN PARTICULAR, JEWISH AMERICANS AND THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SEEING LOCAL AND STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU KNOW, FORTIFY OR BE PRESENT AT SYNAGOGUES AND TRY TO PROTECT THAT COMMUNITY.

>> SO LET'S BREAK THAT DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

>> YEAH.

>> HE SAID BOTH HOMEGROWN VIOLENT EXTREMISTS AS WELL AS DOMESTIC VIOLENT EXTREMISTS.

FOR OUR AUDIENCE, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

>> SO THE HOMEGROWN IS THE GROUPS LIKE THE RIGHT-WING GROUPS WHOSE NAMES AREVARY DEPENDING, WHO HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VIOLENT AND HAVE ORGANIZED AROUND ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS THEY'RE VIEWING AS A LONE WOLF, SOMEONE WHO IS JUST GOING TO BECOME ANIMATED.

NO TIE TO AN ORGANIZATION.

MAYBE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY FEEL, WHO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET INSPIRED BY THIS LANGUAGE, INSPIRED BY THE HATE, INSPIRED BY THE SORT OF LACK OF, YOU KNOW, SORT OF -- I GUESS I WOULD SAY LACK OF ABILITY TO SHOW EMPATHY FOR EITHER SIDE.

LIKE EACH SIDE IS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, MORE ANIMATED THAN MAYBE IT OUGHT TO BE.

>> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT WE ARE NOT IN A COLOR-CODED SYSTEM IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

BUT IF WE WERE, IT WOULD BE KIND OF OFF THE CHARTS.

SPELL THAT OUT FOR US.

WHAT IS THAT THRESHOLD?

HOW DO WE GET TO AN 11?

>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

SO PEOPLE REMEMBER AFTER 9/11, WHICH THERE WAS A LOT OF ANALOGIES TO RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE DOMESTIC ISSUES GOING ON.

THERE WAS A COLOR CODE SYSTEM WHICH SORT OF WAS ROUNDLY CRITICIZED BECAUSE NO ONE ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT TO DO IF IT WENT UP TO RED ALERT OR ORANGE OR YELLOW.

AND SO IT'S BEEN REPLACED ESSENTIALLY WITH A NARRATIVE, WHICH YOU HEARD FBI DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER WRAY TELL, WHICH IS THESE ARE THE NUMBERS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN TERMS OF THE INCREASED THREAT LEVEL, RIGHT?

YOU HAVE A JEWISH POPULATION THAT'S BARELY 3% OF THE UNITED STATES POPULATION RECEIVING OVER 70% OF THE HATE-FILLED UGLINESS THAT WE'RE SEEING ONLINE AND THE KIND OF THING THAT THE FBI HAS BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO.

SO BASICALLY WHEN CHRISTOPHER WRAY SAYS THAT OR SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY MAYORKAS SAYS THAT, THEY ARE BASICALLY TALKING TO DIFFERENT CONSTITUENCIES.

THE FIRST IS YOUR LOCAL, STATE, TRIBAL, TERRITORIAL LAW ENFORCEMENT, WHICH IS THIS IS SERIOUS.

THIS IS NOT JUST BACKGROUND CHATTER.

YOU NEED TO KEEP VIGILANT.

YOU NEED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT INDIVIDUALS.

SUPPORT YOUR COMMUNITIES.

FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY WANT.

SO IN SOME WAYS, IT'S A MESSAGE TO THEM.

THE OTHER IS IT'S A MESSAGE TO THE IMPACTED COMMUNITIES, THAT SOME OF THIS IS ALSO ON YOUR OWN SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, YOUR OWN PROTECTION OF YOUR FACILITIES.

SO YOU DO SEE SYNAGOGUES, FOR EXAMPLE, HIRING PRIVATE GUARDS OR JUST FINDING WAYS IN WHICH THEY CAN MAKE PEOPLE FEEL PROTECTED IN THE MOST SACRED OF RELIGIOUS SITES FOR THEM, THEIR SYNAGOGUE.

THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT WE HEARD THIS WEEK, WAS EVERYONE, THIS IS SERIOUS.

THIS IS NOT JUST THE BACKGROUND STUFF ANYMORE.

AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL HELP MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL FOR HARM EVEN IF IT CAN'T MINIMIZE THE HATE LANGUAGE THAT'S OUT THERE.

>> SO WHAT SHOULD UNIVERSITIES AND CAMPUSES DO BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS THAT THE CONVERSATION IS PRIMARILY ABOUT WHOSE FREE SPEECH IS BEING RESTRICTED.

>> YEAH.

>> OR WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES TO THIS?

WHAT ARE STEPS THAT SCHOOLS OR COLLEGES ARE TAKING AND SHOULD BE TAKING?

>> THERE'S A COUPLE.

THE FIRST IS WE'VE GOT TO VIEW THIS THROUGH A PUBLIC SAFETY LENS FIRST.

THE STUDENTS ARE FREE TO HAVE WHATEVER OPINIONS THEY WANT.

THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO THREATEN.

THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO ISOLATE.

THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO INTIMIDATE, AND CERTAINLY NOT ACCUSED TO USE VIOLENCE, PERIOD.

THAT'S NOT EVEN A UNIVERSITY RULE.

THAT IS, IN FACT, RULES OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY SYSTEM THAT WE ARE GUIDED BY.

AND I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED IS IN THEIR SORT OF TWISTING OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY, UNIVERSITIES HAVE NOT TAKEN THAT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH.

I THINK THAT BEHAVIOR WOULD BE BETTER IN MANY WAYS IF WE BEGAN TO JUST VIEW THIS AS WE NEED -- YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO PROTECT STUDENTS AND THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY, WHATEVER THEIR OPINION IS.

THE SECOND IS JUST ACTUALLY KIND OF RELATED TO OUR FIRST PART OF THIS CONVERSATION.

I THINK I'VE BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME.

I THINK THIS IS THE FIRST SORT OF ISRAELI CONFLICT OR WAR OR VIOLENCE IN THE AREA THAT HAS HAD A VERY ORGANIZED PALESTINIAN SUPPORT, THAT YOU'RE JUST SEEING IT IN COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

I THINK THAT'S THE NATURE OF INFORMATION.

I THINK IT'S THE NATURE OF THIS GENERATION AND OTHER ORGANIZING.

I THINK UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT USED TO THAT.

THEY HAVE TO GET USED TO THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE OPINIONS ABOUT A VERY COMPLICATED AREA AND TO CREATE THE FORUMS WHERE WE CAN DO WHAT WE DO BEST, WHICH IS TRY TO FIND SOLUTIONS AND TO EDUCATE AND TO PROVIDE FORUMS FOR DIFFERENT IDEAS, AND MAYBE GIVE STUDENTS A SPACE TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

I DO BELIEVE THAT A LOT OF THESE HIGHER POLITICAL CONVERSATIONS AND FIGHTING THAT'S GOING ON IN UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES FROM THE FUNDERS, FROM OUTSIDERS AND OTHERS WHO ARE UNHAPPY WITH VARIOUS STATEMENTS THAT UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS HAVE MADE AND STUFF, I THINK THAT HAS INCREASED SOME OF THE TENSIONS THAT WE NOW -- I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG WAR THAT WE NOW NEED TO BEGIN TO MODERATE AND PROVIDE FORUMS FOR STUDENTS, WITH THEM UNDERSTANDING UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS VIOLENCE OR INTIMIDATION ALLOWABLE.

>> I WONDER IF, WHETHER IT'S THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR THE FBI, ARE LOOKING INTO THE IMPACT THAT OUTSIDE ACTORS MAY HAVE ON OUR SOCIAL MEDIA ECOSYSTEM BECAUSE IN THE RUN-UP TO THE ELECTIONS -- >> YEAH.

>> -- WE SAW THAT THERE WERE STATE ACTORS WHO PROFITED FROM DIVIDING AMERICANS.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THERE'S BEEN REPORTING IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT IRAN'S INVOLVEMENT IN TRYING TO PUSH A LOT OF THESE IMAGES, BEING PRO-HAMAS.

AND HEZBOLLAH, YOU HAVE THE RUSSIANS WHO ARE CLEARLY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF IT THROUGH THEIR BOT SYSTEM.

ANYONE WHO IS ONLINE CAN JUST TELL WHAT'S GOING ON.

PEOPLE WITH TWO FOLLOWERS ARE PUSHING STUFF.

AND THEN WHAT WE'RE ADDING TO IT IS ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SOCIAL MEDIA SITES, X, FORMERLY TWITTER, NOW HAS NO FILTERS TO GET THIS STUFF OUT.

AS ANYONE WHO IS IN THE FIELD OF ANALYSIS OR REPORTING, X USED TO BE A PLACE WHERE YOU COULD HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE OF WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT.

THAT'S NO LONGER TRUE BECAUSE THOSE FILTERS ARE GONE.

SO YOU HAVE OUTSIDE ACTORS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR DOMESTIC DIVISIONS.

THEN YOU HAVE THE FILTERING SYSTEM NO LONGER EXISTING.

THAT'S WHY YOU'RE GETTING THIS SORT OF -- IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S NO ROOM FOR CONVERSATION.

IN PARTICULAR, I MEAN YOU RAISED THE POLITICS AND THE ELECTION OF THIS.

SOMETHING THAT IS CLEARLY GOING ON THAT THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FACE IS MICHIGAN.

IF YOU'RE AN OUTSIDE COUNTRY THAT WANTS A GOP CANDIDATE OR HONESTLY IF YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AT THE POLLING RIGHT NOW, MICHIGAN, A SWING STATE.

IT IS SORT OF GROUND ZERO FOR THESE FIGHTS BECAUSE IT HAS A LARGE ARAB AND MUSLIM POPULATION.

AND PRESIDENT BIDEN'S POLLING AMONG THE MUSLIM AND ARAB COMMUNITY HAS PLUMMETED IN WAYS NO ONE HAS SEEN BEFORE, BASICALLY BECAUSE BIDEN IS BEING VIEWED AS TOO PRO-ISRAEL OR TOO PRO-NETANYAHU.

THAT, TOO, WILL HAVE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES IF, IN FACT, MICHIGAN BECOMES SORT OF A GROUND FOR FOREIGN ACTORS AS WELL AS DOMESTIC ONES TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE JUST HORROR THAT'S GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> I WONDER ABOUT WHAT THE POTENTIAL FOR SOME OF THIS CONTENT ONLINE, WHETHER IT'S REAL OR IT'S AMPED UP AND FAKE IS.

DIRECTOR WRAY, ONE OF THE QUOTES THAT HE HAD WAS "OUR MOST IMMEDIATE CONCERN IS THAT THE VIOLENT EXTREMISTS, INDIVIDUALS OR SMALL GROUPS, WILL DRAW INSPIRATION FROM THE EVENTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST TO CARRY OUT ATTACKS AGAINST AMERICANS GOING ABOUT THEIR DAILY LIVES."

SO, YOU KNOW, CONNECT THOSE DOTS.

>> YEAH.

>> HOW DOES THE FBI SEE WHAT IS THE SORT OF ONLINE CHATTER IN THIS AND TURN INTO ACTION?

>> RIGHT.

SO ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WITH THIS PARTICULAR CONFLICT FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSPECTIVE IS THE LANGUAGE IS SO HEIGHTENED IN WAYS THAT WE'VE NEVER REALLY SEEN IN RECENT HISTORY.

AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY THE LANGUAGE OF ANNIHILATION, OF ONE POPULATION OR ANOTHER.

IT IS EITHER THE PALESTINIANS AND THE MUSLIMS ARE EXPENDABLE OR THEY'RE ALL TERRORISTS, RIGHT?

OR IT'S THE ANTI-ZIONISM OR ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH MANY JEWISH AMERICANS WILL VIEW AS AND VIEW APPROPRIATELY AS SORT OF THE ANNIHILATION, NOT DISSIMILAR TO THE HOLOCAUST.

AND WE HAVE TO -- I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT'S HOW IT'S BEING PERCEIVED BY BOTH POPULATIONS OF AMERICANS TO MAYBE BE ABLE TO BRIDGE THAT GAP.

THIS IS NOT JUST "I DON'T LIKE THIS PERSON."

BOTH COMMUNITIES VIEW IT AS ANNIHILATION LANGUAGE.

SO TURNING TO THE FBI, THEY'RE SEEING THIS STUFF ONLINE.

SOMEONE RANDOMLY SAYS, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, "NO MORE JEWS" OR WHATEVER, BUT THAT'S JUST A STATEMENT.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE AN ACTION IN TERMS OF VIOLENCE.

YOU'RE ALLOWED TO SAY THAT IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHAT THEY DO IS THEY CONTINUE TO MONITOR THESE OPEN WEBSITES.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

DETERMINE WHETHER ANYONE HAS A CRIMINAL OR VIOLENT HISTORY.

SOMEONE WHO MAY AMPLIFY IT A BIT MORE, TARGET A PARTICULAR SYNAGOGUE, THAT'S ON THE SORT OF INVESTIGATORY FRONT.

THAT'S WHAT THE FBI CAN DO.

IT CAN'T DO MUCH UNTIL SOMEONE SAYS, I'M GOING AFTER THIS TEMPLE TOMORROW OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING MORE ORGANIZED THAN "I DON'T LIKE JEWISH AMERICANS" OR "I DON'T LIKE THE FAITH."

THE SECOND PIECE OF IT IS NOW DEFENSE.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE ALSO SEEING.

YOU'RE SEEING GOVERNORS, MAYORS, AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY BEGIN TO PUSH PROTECTIVE ASSETS AT SYNAGOGUES, JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTERS, JEWISH SC SCHOOLS WHERE PEOPLE MAY FEEL OR BE MORE VULNERABLE.

SO IT'S THAT COMBINATION OF THINGS.

BUT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS CHALLENGE IS THIS LANGUAGE OF ANNIHILATION BOTH AGAINST JUDAISM AND JEWS AND AGAINST -- OR VIEWING ALL PALESTINIANS AS PRO-HAMAS.

IT GIVES THE PERSON WHO MIGHT BE RADICALIZED A JUSTIFICATION FOR THE VIOLENCE, RIGHT?

THEY'RE JUST SIMPLY PROTECTING THEMSELVES.

AND THAT IS WHY YOU SAW CHRIS WRAY, I THINK, MORE ENERGIZED IN SOME WAYS THAN I'VE EVER SEEN HIM BEFORE IN THAT SENSE OF THIS IS REALLY A FLASHING RED LIGHT MOMENT, AND WE ALL NEED TO -- WE ALL NEED TO WATCH WHAT WE SAY AND TO PROTECT OURSELVES BECAUSE OF THIS HEIGHTENED ENVIRONMENT.

>> AND UNFORTUNATELY WE'VE SEEN ACTIONS TAKE PLACE AGAINST SYNAGOGUES, JEWISH INDIVIDUALS, AS WELL AS MUSLIM INDIVIDUALS IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

EITHER IT'S A -- IT'S THE ATTACKS AGAINST STUDENT GROUPS AT UNIVERSITIES, CONCERNS ABOUT SYNAGOGUES AND THE SPECIFIC THREATS AGAINST SYNAGOGUES AND OTHER AREAS, AND THEN OF COURSE THE KILLING BY STABBING, THE SORT OF MOST INTIMATE IN A WEIRD WAY VIOLENCE.

RIGHT?

HE KNEW THE KID OF A MUSLIM CHILD IN CHICAGO.

SO ALL OF IT IS WHAT CONCERNS THE FBI AT THIS STAGE.

IT'S NOT JUST TALK.

THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO WILL ACT ON IT, AND IT TAKES SORT OF, YOU KNOW, LOCAL, STATE, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE COMMUNITY TO REMAIN VIGILANT.

AND I SHOULD SAY, AND IT TAKES LEADERSHIP FROM ALL OF THESE INSTITUTIONS AND GOVERNMENT TO NOT AMPLIFY THAT TALK OF ANNIHILATION, RIGHT?

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT LANGUAGE IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT TRIGGERS PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR HATE.

>> JULIETTE KAYYEM, THANKS AS ALWAYS.

>> THANKS.

>>> WELL, NOW, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GENDER, SPORTS IS OFTEN ON THE FRONT LINE.

BUT WHILE THE DEBATE FREQUENTLY BECOMES A BINARY, THE TRUTH IS OFTEN MORE NUANCED.

NO ONE EXEMPLIES THIS MORE THAN CASTER SEMENYA.

THE EXTRAORDINARY ATHLETE HAS WON TWO OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALS FOR THE 800 METERS, BUT SHE ALSO HAS FOUND HERSELF AS THE SUBJECT OF A VERY TOXIC DEBATE SURROUNDING HER VERY OWN IDENTITY.

FOR YEARS SHE WAS FORCED TO TAKE HORMONES TO LOWER HER NATURAL TESTOSTERONE LEVELS.

NOW SHE'S TELLING HER STORY IN HER NEW MEMOIR "THE RACE TO BE MYSELF" AND RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE DEBATE NATURAL ABILITIES.

CASTER SEMENYA JOINS ME FROM LAX.

CASTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

YOU KNOW, THE TIMING OF THE BOOK, GIVEN THAT YOUR CAREER HAS SPANNED DECADES NOW, HAS RAISED QUESTIONS AS TO WHY YOU FELT NOW WAS THE TIME TO TELL YOUR STORY.

I WANT TO READ A BIT FROM THE BOOK.

"I HAVE NEVER SPOKEN ABOUT IT IN DETAIL, ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED DURING THIS TIME OF MY LIFE.

BUT NOW I AM READY TO DO SO."

WHY IS NOW THE TIME?

>> GOOD MORNING.

I THINK NOW IS THE TIME BECAUSE I'M MATURED.

I THINK I'VE GROWN INTO SPORTS.

BUT I THINK MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT WE NEED TO START GROWING WOMEN'S SPORTS.

WE NEED TO START UNDERSTANDING THE WORTH OF WOMEN IN SPORTS AND THEIR ABILITIES.

I THINK FOR ME, IT'S ALL ABOUT FIGHTING FOR WHAT IS RIGHT FOR WOMEN, EQUALITY, INCLUSIVITY, AND THE DIVERSE.

I THINK I'LL SAY, YES, I'M READY EMOTIONALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY.

WITHIN, I SAY I'M FULFILLED, AND NOW I THINK IS THE RIGHT TIME FOR US AS WOMEN TO TAKE OVER AND MAKE SURE THAT WE PROTECT OUR OWN.

>> ATHLETES -- YOU HAVE AN INNATE SENSE TO FIGHT, BUT YOU FIGHT ON THE FIELD.

YOU FIGHT IN YOUR SPORT.

YOU FIGHT WHEN YOU'RE RACING, AND YOU'RE FIGHTING AGAINST YOUR COMPETITORS.

IN YOUR CASE, THOUGH, YOU WERE FIGHTING BEHIND THE SCENES AS WELL, AND IT STARTED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK WHEN YOU WERE JUST 18, YOU FACED YOUR FIRST GENDER TEST.

YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS A DOPING TEST THAT ENDED UP BEING A GENDER TEST ON THE REST DAY BEFORE THE BIGGEST RACE IN YOUR LIFE.

CAN YOU TALK TO US ABOUT THAT MOMENT AND HOW VIOLATING THAT MUST HAVE FELT AT SUCH A VERY YOUNG AGE IN YOUR LIFE AND IN YOUR CAREER?

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT WAS A LIFE-CHANGING STORY BECAUSE HERE YOU ARE.

YOU ARE 18 YEARS OF AGE, AND THEN YOU'RE ASKED IF YOU'RE NOT WOMAN ENOUGH.

AND YOUR ENTIRE CHILDHOOD, YOU'VE BEEN A WOMAN, REGARDLESS OF THE DIFFERENCES THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR BODY.

BUT I THINK FOR ME, WHAT I HAD TO TURN AROUND WAS, LIKE, THE HUMILIATION, YOU KNOW, THE INJUSTICE, AND PEOPLE TREATING ME WITH NO RESPECT.

FOR ME, I HAD TO JUST KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR.

I THINK THE IMPORTANCE FOR ME, IT WAS KNOWING WHO I AM, MY IDENTITY, AND CARRY THAT, YOU KNOW, TO REPRESENT MY COUNTRY.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A MISCALCULATION, YOU KNOW, FROM IAAF THEN BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT FOR THEM DOING WHAT THEY DID TO ME, IT WAS STOP ME FROM LOVING THE SPORT, YOU KNOW, I'M DOING.

AND THAT WAS WRONG, AND THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY NEED TO START RESPECTING, YOU KNOW, YOUNG WOMEN, RESPECTING WOMEN IN SPORTS, AND THEY SHOULD STOP REGULATING WOMEN'S SPORT.

THEY SHOULD LET WOMEN DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR WOMEN.

BUT I'LL SAY IT HAS GROWN ME, IT HAS BUILT ME TO BE THE PERSON I AM.

NOW I UNDERSTAND THE PRINCIPLES OF LIFE.

I UNDERSTAND HOW TO TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT.

BUT THEN I KNOW THE RIGHT OF BEING.

I WILL SAY, YES, IT DID BUILD ME, AND I'M HAPPY TO BE WHERE I AM TODAY.

>> FOR THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW YOUR STORY, YOU MENTIONED THE DIFFERENCES IN YOUR BODY.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, OF COURSE.

FOR ME, THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, THE DIFFERENCES IN MY BODY, I'M BORN A WOMAN, BUT I'M A WOMAN WITH INTO UTERUS, NO FALLOPIAN TUBE.

I DON'T GO THROUGH MENSTRUATION AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

I HAVE A CONDITION, YOU KNOW, WITH DSD, WHICH, YES, I'M DIFFERENT, BUT IT DON'T MAKE ME LESS A WOMAN.

I HAVE HIGH ELEVATED T TESTOSTERONE, BUT IT DOES NOT REALLY PLAY A ROLE IN MY TRAINING OR A ROLE IN MY PERFORMANCES.

IT'S JUST THAT ONE OF THOSE THINGS WE SAY IT MAY BE A DISORDER.

BUT I THINK THROUGH MY HARD WORK, I AM HERE WHERE I AM BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, DEDICATION, HARD WORK, YOU KNOW, DISCIPLINE AND ALL THOSE THINGS.

BUT THEN IT'S CONSIDERED A THREAT TO A MAN, YOU KNOW, SPORTS BECAUSE WHEN A WOMAN DOES GREAT, IT BECOMES A PROBLEM.

BUT THEN WHEN A MAN DOES GOOD, THEY'RE PHENOMENAL.

BUT GENETICALLY, IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN SAY YOU CANNOT CONTROL IT.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE FORCED TO DO TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE.

>> YES.

>> THAT IS THE TESTOSTERONE-REDUCING DRUGS THAT YOU DESCRIBE HAVING A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON YOUR BODY.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET TESTED FOR DOPING AND GET PUNISHED FOR PUTTING CHEMICALS AND SUBSTANCES IN THEIR BODIES, AND YET THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE FORCED TO DO IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE.

CAN YOU GIVE US MORE INSIGHT INTO HOW THAT MADE YOU FEEL PHYSICALLY?

>> TO BE HONEST, I'LL SAY IT WAS HELL BECAUSE EACH AND EVERY DAY, YOU LIVE UNDER STRESS.

YOU'RE NOT HAPPY WITHIN.

YOU ARE NEVER HAPPY.

AND WHAT YOU FEEL, IT MAKES YOU FEEL SICK, NAUSEOUS.

YOU HAVE PANIC ATTACKS.

IT START CREATING A LITTLE BIT OF BLOOD CLOTS IN YOUR SYSTEM.

YOU CAN'T SLEEP.

I'LL NOT ADVISE ANYONE OUT THERE TO GO THROUGH WHAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH BECAUSE IT'S LIKE DIGGING A HOLE THAT YOU CAN NEVER FILL UP, YOU KNOW.

IT'S LIKE YOU MEASURE A CASKET, AND YOU GET IN, AND THEN YOU BURY YOURSELF.

IT WAS NOT EASY.

IT WAS HARD TIMES.

BUT I THINK THROUGH THAT, I HAD TO LEARN TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG, KNOW THE RIGHT OF BEING NORMAL AS A YOUNG GIRL.

AND FOR NOW, WE ADVOCATE FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.

WE FIGHT THIS CAUSE SO IT CANNOT HAPPEN TO THESE YOUNG GIRLS.

THAT'S HELL IF I MAY SAY.

>> AND YOU'RE SO POISED.

I MEAN IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT IT'S TAKEN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND YOUR NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE TO COME OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE AND TO TALK ABOUT IT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BE USEFUL FOR OTHERS.

>> OF COURSE.

>> YOU PERHAPS MAY BE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING SIMILAR AND THINK THEY ARE ALONE.

IN THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT THE WORLD OF ATHLETICS NEEDING TO CLEAN UP THE SPORT FOR MALE AND FEMALE ATHLETES.

I'M WONDERING JUST THE IRONY AND YOUR REACTION TO HOW IT FELT WHEN IN 2017, IT TURNED OUT THAT A RUSSIAN WINNER WAS ACTUALLY DOPING.

THAT RUSSIAN BEAT YOU IN THE LONDON OLYMPICS AND THEN WAS DISQUALIFIED.

SO AFTER ALL OF THIS ATTENTION FOCUSED ON YOU, TO THEN HAVE THIS HAPPEN, WHAT WAS THAT MOMENT LIKE?

>> I THINK FOR ME, I'LL SAY, YOU KNOW, WHEN THINGS ARE MEANT TO BE, THEY ARE MEANT TO BE.

AND REGARDLESS OF, YOU KNOW, THE BAN AND BEING OBLIGATED FOR, YOU KNOW, BEING OLYMPIC CHAMPION, WORLD CHAMPION, I THINK FOR ME IT'S MORE FOR START UNDERSTANDING THE IMPORTANCE OF, YOU KNOW, CLEANING THE SPORT, THE IMPORTANCE OF MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF, YOU KNOW, SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

AND LOOKING INTO WHERE THEY START TALKING THEY WANT EQUALITY FOR WOMEN, WHICH THERE IS NO EQUALITY.

THERE IS NO LEVEL IN THE SPORTS BECAUSE IT IS SPECIFICALLY FOR, YOU KNOW, CERTAIN WOMEN.

AND YOU SAY YOU WANT WHAT'S GOOD FOR WOMEN.

AND FOR ME, I'M UPGRADED.

I'M HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME IS WE'RE STANDING HERE AND MAKE SURE THAT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS TREATED WITH RESPECT, WITH DIGNITY, YOU KNOW, HUMANITY.

IT'S MOST IMPORTANT IN SPORTS, AND WE NEED TO TEACH THE SPORTSMANSHIP WITHIN US AS WOMEN.

YOU KNOW, BUT FOR ME, I'LL ALWAYS ADVOCATE FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.

I'LL ALWAYS QUESTION WHY WOMEN SPORTS?

WHY IS IT THAT IMPORTANT FOR A MAN TO WANT TO REGULATE WOMEN'S SPORTS?

WHY IS NOT IMPORTANT TO ALLOW WOMEN TO DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR WOMEN'S SPORTS?

WHY IS IT THAT IMPORTANT FOR A MAN TO WANT TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF.

HE WANTS TO SAY, THIS IS HOW A WOMAN SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

YOU UNDERSTAND?

FOR ME, I THINK IF THOSE THINGS, WE GET TO DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN, TO START UNDERSTANDING THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US AS WOMEN TO DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR US, I'LL BE FULFILLED.

>> CASTER, ON THE ISSUE OF DOPING, I HAVE TO FOLLOW UP WITH WHAT WORLD ATHLETICS SAID TO US IN A STATEMENT.

THEY SAID FULL-SCALE REFORMS WERE INITIATED BY WORLD ATHLETICS PRESIDENT SEBASTIAN CO-AFTER HIS ELECTION.

IN 2015, THE INTEGRITY UNIT AS SEEN AS THE GOLD STANDARD IN THE WORLD OF SPORT AND ITS ANTI-DOPING PROGRAM HAS MADE A REAL AND IMPACTFUL DIFFERENCE IN OUR SPORT, END QUOTE.

I DON'T WANT TO SPEND TIME LITIGATING THAT STATEMENT BECAUSE I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF GENDER IN SPORTS.

YOU ARE NOT TRANSGENDER, BUT AS YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BECOME A VERY HEATED DEBATE IN THE WORLD OF SPORTS.

I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE WE'RE HEARING FROM MANY ATHLETES WHO SUPPORT AND HAVE DIFFERENT COUNTERING VIEWS AS WELL.

>> OF COURSE.

I THINK THIS IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE TO BE DISCUSSED.

I'M NOT REALLY GOOD IN TERMS OF GOVERNANCE.

I'M NOT REALLY GOOD IN TERMS OF REGULATION.

BUT FROM MY UNDERSTANDING FROM SOMEONE WHO'S DIFFERENT, I UNDERSTAND THAT THINGS NEED TO BE, YOU KNOW, TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

ISSUES LIKE THIS, WE NEED TO SIT DOWN AND TRY TO IRON OUT, YOU KNOW, THOSE DIFFERENCES.

EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IN THIS WORLD HAS GOT THE RIGHT OF BEING, HAS GOT THE RIGHT TO COMPETE IN SPORTS.

BUT IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS, FOR US NOT TO STEP ON EACH OTHER'S TOES, I THINK IT WILL BE VERY IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, FOR WORLD SPORTS TO START UNDERSTANDING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE INCLUSIVITY AND DIVERSE, MAKING SURE THAT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS RESPECTED, EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS ACCEPTED, YOU KNOW, TO PARTAKE IN SPORTS.

BUT LIKE I SAID, FOR NOW, I'M NOT REALLY AN EXPERT IN TERMS OF REGULATING SPORTS.

I LOVE TRANS PEOPLE.

THEY ARE MY FAMILY.

THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL.

I LOVE THEM FOR WHO THEY ARE.

I THINK -- I HOPE, YOU KNOW, TOWARDS THE END, YOU KNOW, THESE SITUATIONS WILL BE RESOLVED, AND EACH AND EVERY ONE WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE PART IN SPORTS.

>> WELL, TO CONCLUDE, WE SHOULD LET OUR VIEWERS KNOW IN JULY, THE EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS RULED YOU HAD BEEN LET DOWN BY THE SWISS LEGAL SYSTEM IN YOUR BATTLE AGAINST LIMITS ON TESTOSTERONE LEVELS FOR FEMALE ATHLETES.

SO, CASTER, I DO WANT TO THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SPEAK TO US, FOR SPEAKING TO OTHER ATHLETES WHO MAY FIND THEMSELVES IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS LIKE YOURS, TO LET THEM KNOW THEY ARE NOT ALONE.

WE REALLY DO LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT IS NEXT IN YOUR LIFE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CONGRATULATIONS FOR ALL OF YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS THUS FAR.

CASTER SEMENYA, THANK YOU.

>> THANKS.

>>> WELL, SPEAKING OF HEROES, IN SOUTH AFRICA SPORTS, THE NATIONAL RUGBY TEAM IS BACK HOME AFTER A TRIUMPHANT WIN AT THE WORLD CUP IN FRANCE, BEATING NEW ZEALAND BY JUST ONE POINT.

WELL NOW TAKING A VICTORY LAP AROUND THE NATION, THOUSANDS OF SOUTH AFRICANS ARE LINING THE STREETS IN CELEBRATION FOR A COUNTRY PLAGUED BY POVERTY AND INEQUALITY, THIS WIN REALLY HAS BOOSTS MORALE.

CAPTAIN SIYA KOLISI SPOKE OF THE SIGNIFICANCE ON HIS RETURN.

>> THIS ONE IS FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN SOUTH AFRICA, RICH, POOR, DOESN'T MATTER.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE YOU COME FROM BECAUSE OF THE TEAM THAT WE HAVE, WHICH IS VERY DIVERSE TEAM, WHICH IS VERY BEAUTIFUL AS WELL.

WE ALL COME FROM DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE, DIFFERENT RACES.

I KNOW THIS WIN WILL INSPIRE A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE HOW PEOPLE ARE IN CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT FOR US AS PLAYERS, IT'S GOING TO GIVE US A PLATFORM THAT WE CAN OPEN MORE OPPORTUNITIES LIKE WITH OUR FOUNDATION, THE WORKS THAT WE DO AROUND SOUTH AFRICA.

SO, YEAH, WE REALLY HOPE THIS JUST DOESN'T END IT.

A LITTLE BIT OF CELEBRATIONS FOR A WEEK, AND IT NEEDS TO DO MORE.

>> THAT'S WHY WE LOVE THE WORLD OF SPORTS, REALLY UNITING COUNTRIES.

PRESIDENT CYRIL RAMAPHOSA HAS EVEN DECLARED A PUBLIC HOLIDAY ON DECEMBER 15th.

THAT IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SPORT BREAKING DOWN BARRIERS AND HARNESSING HOPE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.

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