GAUTAM: I AM GAUTAM MUKUNDA.

TONIGHT, HOW IS CLIMATE CHANGE THREATENING MASSACHUSETTS AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

SPENCER GLENDON, FOUNDER OF CLIMATE NONPROFIT PROBABLE FUTURES JOINS ME.

THEN, I WILL TALK WITH CONGRESSMAN SETH MOULTON ON THE LATEST OF THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR.

PROSPECTS FOR A CEASE-FIRE AND HOW THE U.S. IS INVOLVED.

LATER, I WILL TALK TO A FORMER COLLEAGUE OF HENRY KISSINGER OF THE WAR CRIMES AND LEGACY OF THE FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE.

SEA LEVELS ARE RISING PUTTING MASSACHUSETTS COASTAL COMMUNITIES AT RISK.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO A RECENTLY UNVEILED CLIMATE ACTION PLAN, WHICH ESTIMATES THAT IF GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT SLOW DOWN,'’S 1500 MILES OF SHORELINE WILL SUFFER ONE BILLION DOLLARS OF DAMAGES ANNUALLY BY 2070.

WELL ALL OF THIS LOOK LIKE AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

I AM GOING TO BUY SPENCER GLENDON, FOUNDER OF PROBABLE FUTURES, AND NONPROFIT THAT WORKS TO MAKE PRACTICAL CLIMATE SCIENCE INFORMATION, TOOLS, AND RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

SPENCER: THANKS SO MUCH.

GAUTAM: WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

CAN YOU PUT IT IN A LARGER PERSPECTIVE WHAT THAT REALLY MEANS?

SPENCER: THE REASON WE TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE IS BECAUSE THE CLIMATE DID NOT CHANGE FOR 12,000 YEARS.

CIVILIZATION, WHICH IS LIVING FOR THE LONG TERM, SPECIALIZING, DOING AGRICULTURE, WAS BUILT ON A STABLE CLIMATE.

IF YOU KNEW WHAT THE PAST WAS, YOU COULD PLAN FOR THE FUTURE.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS TAKING US OUT OF THAT LONG STABILITY.

AND WITH THAT LONG STABILITY CAME THESE PATTERNS.

THE LONG HISTORICAL ANSWER IS, FOR 12,000 YEARS, THE CLIMATE STAYED IN A NARROW RANGE OF PLUS OR MINUS ONE DEGREE.

THE REASON THINGS ARE GETTING FUNKY NOW IS BECAUSE WE ARE ABOUT 1.5 DEGREE ABOVE THAT LONG-TERM AVERAGE, OUTSIDE THE RANGE OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

BUT ALSO MOVING.

GAUTAM: 1.5 DEGREES IS HARD FOR PEOPLE TO GET THEIR HEAD AROUND WHAT THAT MEANS.

FOR MASSACHUSETTS, WHAT DOES A 1.5 DEGREE CHANGE AND GLOBAL TEMPERATURES MEAN FOR US?

SPENCER: WE STARTED BY TALKING ABOUT THE SEA LEVEL RISE.

I THINK THAT IS THE EASIEST THING TO IMAGINE.

I DO THINK IT IS A GOOD PLACE TO START.

THE WATER, THE OCEANS ARE BIG AND AQUEOUS.

THEY SHOULD NOT STAY STILL.

WE DON'’T THINK OF WATER AS BEING INERT, YET WE COUNT ON THAT COAST BEING IN ONE PLACE.

I THINK THE EMPHASIS ON SEA LEVEL RISE IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT PROBLEM, FOR NOW.

AND FOR 1.5 DEGREES.

BECAUSE WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED IS THE RANGES OF TEMPERATURES HAVE CHANGED, EVEN JUST WHERE WE LIVE.

I WILL TALK ABOUT TWO THINGS TODAY THAT I THINK COULD BE HELPFUL TO ILLUSTRATE THIS.

THEY MAY NOT BE AS HEADLINE GRABBING.

THEY ARE SLEEP AND FRUIT.

SLEEP, WE NEED TO COOL DOWN AT NIGHT TO SLEEP WELL.

AND BECAUSE THE SUN GOES AWAY, THAT USUALLY HAPPENS.

BUT NIGHTS ARE GETTING HOT FASTER THAN DAYS ARE.

THERE ARE MORE RECORD HOT NIGHTS THAN DAYS.

THE RANGE OF TEMPERATURES IS MOVING UP HERE WHAT THAT MEANS IS NIGHTS ARE SOMETIMES CALLED TROPICAL NIGHTS.

IN THIS LATITUDE, IT IS NICE THAT DON'’T DROP BELOW 50 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT.

USED TO BE RARE.

MAYBE YOU HAD A WEEK OF IT.

A COOL YEAR, YOU MAY NOT HAVE ANY.

A HOT YEAR, MAYBE THREE WEEKS OF IT.

THEY ARE NOW BECOMING MORE COMMON.

GAUTAM: WE SAW IN PHOENIX WHERE YOU HAD THREE OR FOUR WEEKS IN A ROW OF 130 DEGREE TEMPERATURES EVEN.

THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN AND BOSTON IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR US THAT IT IS OVER 68?

SPENCER: IT MEANS PEOPLE ARE NOT SLEEPING AS WELL.

IT MEANS PEOPLE WILL START DEMANDING HVAC EQUIPMENT, HAVE AIR CONDITIONING WHEN THEY DID NOT USE TO.

IT IS HARD ON KIDS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS EVEN THOSE HOT SUMMER NIGHTS NOW OUR SCHOOL NIGHTS ALSO.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED THE FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL THIS YEAR IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND A LOT OF KIDS WERE SENT HOME BECAUSE IT WAS TOO HOT IN SCHOOL, AND THE SCHOOLS NOT BILLED FOR AIR CONDITIONING OR THESE TEMPERATURES.

IT IS NOT AN EXPERT WE DID NOT BILLED FOR PHOENIX.

THAT'’S ONE THING.

THE SECOND THING IS, WE WILL GO TO FRUIT.

IN THE CENTER OF MASSACHUSETTS THERE ARE ALL OF THESE ORCHARDS.

ALL OF THOSE TREES WERE TRAINED, WERE SUITED TO THE PAST CLIMATE.

.

ONE OF THE THINGS THEY NEED IS A STRONG SIGNAL THAT WINTER HAS COME AND GONE.

COLD HARD THAT LAST, AND THEN YIELD TO WARMER NIGHTS AND DAYS, THIS YEAR, THERE WERE NO STONE FRUITS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

NO PEACHES, NO PLUMS, BECAUSE THE TREES WERE TRICKED BY COLD WEATHER BEING FOLLOWED BY VERY WARM WINTER DAYS, THAT CAUSED THEM TO THINK SPRING HAD COME, WHICH MADE THEM UNABLE TO PRODUCE FRUIT.

GAUTAM: IN THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS, ESSENTIALLY EVERY CROP DEPENDING ON STONE FRUITS FAILED.

SPENCER: YES.

GAUTAM: WITHOUT EXCEPTION?

SPENCER: ESSENTIALLY.

GAUTAM: WE SHOULD EXPECT THAT TO BE ROUTINE?

SPENCER: YES.

GAUTAM: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE STATE?

SPENCER: IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO OTHER CROPS, PRECIPITATION USED TO BE -- MASSACHUSETTS HAS A WIDE RANGE, BUT THERE WERE HOT YEARS AND WHAT YEARS AND DRY YEARS AND COLD YEARS.

THOSE HOPS AND WETS AND DRIVES ARE GETTING MORE EXTREME, WHICH MAKES IT HOTTER -- HARDER TO PRACTICE OUR GROUP CULTURE.

YOU MAY THINK, IT'’S FINE, I WILL STILL BUY STRAWBERRIES.

STRAWBERRIES ARE GROWN IN CALIFORNIA.

THE CALIFORNIA STRAWBERRIES, THEY ARE IRRIGATED BY SNOWMELT.

MASSACHUSETTS GROCERY EXPERIENCE IN THE WINTERTIME, WHICH WE ARE NOW IN, IS GOVERNED BY SNOWMELT IN CALIFORNIA.

IF IT SNOWS IN THE MOUNTAINS ABOVE THE SACRAMENTO VALLEY, AND THEN THAT SNOW MELTS GRADUALLY OVER THE COURSE OF THE SUMMER, SPRING AND FALL, WE GET STRAWBERRIES.

THAT IS BREAKING DOWN ALSO.

FEWER COLD RELIABLE RENT -- WINTERS IS CHANGING THE PRODUCTION OF FRUIT EVERYWHERE.

GAUTAM: IF WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE DROUGHTS, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, EVEN IF WE WON'’T SEE MORE DROUGHTS IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHAT IS MORE DOUBTS LOOK LIKE ON A GLOBAL SCALE?

SPENCER: DROUGHT IS A FASCINATING CONCEPT.

IT IS AN UNLIKELY THING.

IT IS A THING THAT IF YOU DEFINE A SEVERE DROUGHT THAT HAPPENS ONCE IN A GENERATION, A 5% CHANCE, JUST GOING FROM THE CLIMATE OF THE LATE 20TH CENTURY TO NOW IS A TRANSITION FROM DROUGHT BEING LOCALLY DEFINED AS RARE, TO IN LOTS OF PLACES WHAT WAS THAT RARE DROUGHT BEING SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS EVERY FEW YEARS.

THAT IS NOT A DROUGHT ANYMORE.

IT IS A WRIT OF VACATION.

IT IS DIFFERENT CLIMATE.

IF YOU THINK OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WHERE THESE FIRES ARE IN THE WORLD, IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE THOSE TREES ARE THE WRONG TREES FOR THE CLIMATE THEY ARE IN.

IT IS DRIER AND HOTTER.

DROUGHT IS NOT JUST A FUNCTION OF A LACK OF PRECIPITATION.

EVERYONE DEGREES CENTIGRADE WARMER THAT THE ATMOSPHERE GETS, IT GETS THIRSTIER.

IT PULLS 7% MORE MOISTURE.

AIR THAT IS 10 DEGREES WARMER CENTIGRADE CAN HOLD 100% MORE MOISTURE, WHICH MEANS IT DRIES OUT THE EARTH AND THE PLANTS MORE.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?

ONE OF THE PLACES THAT IS DRYING THE FASTEST AS THE AMAZON.

THE AMAZON RAIN FOREST IS THE LUNGS OF THE PLANET.

AS IT GETS HOTTER, IT GETS DRIER.

AND A CAN HOLD LESS CARBON.

IT CAN ACT LESS WELL AS THIS PLACE THAT IS OUR LUNGS AND IT IS MORE INCLINED TO BURN.

EVEN THESE DISTANT CHANGES, AND THE LAST THING I KNOW YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN POLITICAL SCIENCE, ONE OF THE BEST PREDICTORS OF SOCIAL UNREST AND MIGRATION IS DROUGHT AND AGRICULTURE COMMUNITIES.

THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES WHERE DROUGHT IS BECOMING SO FREQUENT, THAT IT IS JUST NOT VIABLE TO BE A FARMER.

GAUTAM: YOU ARE SAYING THAT FREQUENTS -- THE GLOBAL FREQUENCY OF EXTREME DROUGHT GO UP SIGNIFICANTLY.

IF I'’M UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY, HUMAN HISTORY HAS NOT SEEN ANYTHING THAT LOOKS LIKE THAT.

THERE ARE LOTS OF PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE ESSENTIALLY EVERYTHING THEY DO.

IN THE UNITED STATES, WHAT PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES D.C.

MOST EFFECTIVE -- MOST AFFECTED BY THESE CHANGES?

SPENCER: THE BIGGEST CHANGES WILL BE FROM IN THE NEAR-TERM, OR THREE CLIMATES.

ONE IS SENSITIVE MEDITERRANEAN CLIMATES, PLACES THAT ARE DRY BUT NOT TRUE DRY.

OR HISTORICALLY HAVE BEEN DRY BUT NOT TOO DRY.

AND WARM BUT NOT TOO WARM.

THOSE ARE IN CALIFORNIA AND MOSTLY ALONG THE WEST COAST AND SOUTHWEST, WHERE IT WAS BETWEEN A DESERT AND OCEAN.

IT WAS THAT RIGHT.

IT IS SO NARROW, THAT CLIMATE, THAT TIPPING INTO A DESERT OR THE MEDITERRANEAN FOREST TO A GRASSLAND IS UNDERWAY.

THE SECOND IS WHERE HEAT AND HUMIDITY ARE BECOMING INTENSE.

IN THE SOUTH AND IN FLORIDA, THE SOUTH EAST.

THE COMBINATION OF HEAT AND HUMIDITY IS LEADING TO MUCH HIGHER KIDNEY DISEASE BECAUSE THE BODY HAS TO WORK HARDER.

WE ARE BIG MAMMALS.

WE NEED TO OFFLOAD HEAT.

THE AIR NEEDS TO TAKE IT FROM US.

THAT WARMER, MORE MOIST AIR IS NOT FRIENDLY TO US.

THAT IS A GLOBAL PHENOMENON, AS WELL AS A LOCAL PHENOMENON.

THE LAST IS PLACES WHERE WE BUILT A VERY, VERY COMPLEX SYSTEMS LIKE BOSTON, WE BUILT ALL OF THIS INFRASTRUCTURE YOU CAN SEE IN THE BACK.

LIKE OUR ASPHALT.

ALL OF WHICH IS SPECIFIED FOR A RANGE OF TEMPERATURES.

WHEN YOU GET OUTSIDE THAT RANGE EVEN A LITTLE BIT, THE ENGINEERS DID NOT PLAN FOR THAT EXTRA FEW DEGREES, IN THE ASPHALT TURNS TO GOO.

WHERE WE BUILT THE MOST SOPHISTICATED, MOST TECHNICAL, THE MOST SPECIFIC INFRASTRUCTURE, WE WILL SEE THE MOST COSTS.

GAUTAM: I THINK IT IS HARD FOR US TO UNDERSTAND ASPHALTS MELTING.

WE REPLACE THE ROADS.

CAN YOU DRILL IT DOWN AND GIVE US SPECIFICS AS TO NUMBERS OR DISLOCATION OF WHAT YOU EXPECT IN A CITY LIKE BOSTON?

SPENCER: IN A CITY LIKE BOSTON, THE CHALLENGE IS THAT IT IS KIND OF EVERYWHERE, AND IT IS NOT ALWAYS A CATASTROPHE.

THE SEA SEEMS THE MOST OMINOUS.

THE REST OF THESE THINGS ARE ALL INCREMENTAL.

EVERYBODY GETS AIR CONDITIONING.

H, YOU KEEP REPAIRING THE ROADS.

OH, WE SLIGHTLY CHANGE OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE.

OH, WE GET OUR FOOD FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS CUMULATIVELY IMPOSE A COST.

AND ONE OF THOSE COSTS FOR US IS ACTUALLY HUMAN HEALTH.

THE PEOPLE THAT WE FIND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN LITERATURE THAT ARE MOST AT RISK ARE THE ELDERLY, THE SICK, AND CHILDREN.

CHILDREN HAVE A HARD TIME OFFLOADING HEAT.

ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE WE WILL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE MORE IS SCHOOLS.

FEWER SNOW DAYS, MORE HEAT DAYS.

WHAT IS THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THOSE SCHOOLS?

HOW DO WE ABOUT HOW MAYBE YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE A TEST AFTER A HOT NIGHT, BECAUSE WE LOCATED'’S CONNECT -- WE KNOW THAT KID'’S COGNITION GOES DOWN.

RESILIENCY IS PART OF JUST BEING MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE FACT THAT WE NEED TO BE MORE IN TUNE WITH OUR PHYSICAL WORLD.

THAT IS A CULTURAL CHANGE THAT EVERYBODY CAN MAKE.

GAUTAM: I KNOW YOU HAVE FAMOUSLY SAID THE TERMINAL VALUE OF ANY FLORIDA-BASED CAPITAL ASSET IS ZERO.

BOSTON IS NOT FLORIDA.

BUT IT WAS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES AND WE NEED TO START MAKING THEM NOW.

SPENCER: THAT'’S RIGHT.

THE SECOND PART OF THAT IS, MAYBE NOT IN BOSTON PER SE, BUT IN GREATER BOSTON, OVER TIME, WE SHOULD EXPECT THE PEOPLE WHO LEFT TO GO TO FLORIDA FOR THE LOW TAX RATES TO COME BACK.

THAT IS A HARD THING TO PLAN FOR.

TO COMPETE OVER TAXES AND OTHER THINGS, AND HAVE THOSE PEOPLE NOT LEAVE.

BUT ON THE OTHER SENSE, BE READY FOR THEM TO COME BACK.

BECAUSE OUR CLIMATE WILL STAY A VERY LIVABLE ONE AND OTHER PLACES WILL STAY IF NOT UNLIVABLE, AND INVESTABLE.

THERE IS THIS CHALLENGE OF THE SHORT, MEDIUM, AND LONG-TERM CARE THE LONG-TERM SHOULD BE VERY GOOD FOR THE STATE IN TERMS OF MIGRATION.

BUT HARD INFRASTRUCTURE, AGRICULTURE, AND EVEN JUST CULTURE WISE.

IT IS A CHALLENGE.

I KNOW THE CLIMATE CHIEF OF THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS IS DOING A GREAT JOB, MELISSA HOFFER.

IT IS A LOCAL ISSUE IN EVERY TOWN, AND IT IS A CIVIC ISSUE EVERYWHERE.

IF WE CAN ALL BECOME MORE AWARE, I THINK WE CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF IT.

GAUTAM: SPENCER GLENDON, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE WITH US TODAY.

SPENCER: IT WAS A TREAT.

GAUTAM: IT WAS DOWN TO THE WIRE, BUT THE CEASE-FIRE HAS BEEN EXTENDED FOR ANOTHER DAY, MAKING WAY FOR 2 MILLION RESIDENTS HAVE STRUGGLED TO ACCESS FOOD, WATER, AND MEDICINE FOR WEEKS.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ITSELF HAS VOICED CONCERN THAT CONTINUED ISRAELI OFFENSIVE COULD RESULT IN THOUSANDS MORE OF CASUALTIES AND A RAIL THE RELEASE OF REMAINING HOSTAGES HELD.

MY NEXT ASKED SHARES THAT CONCERN.

.

CONGRESSMAN SETH MOULTON OF SALEM.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

REP. MOULTON: GOOD TO BE BACK.

GAUTAM: AND A NOTE FOR OUR VIEWERS, THE CONGRESSMAN AND I ARE OLD FRIENDS FROM COLLEGE AND I DONATED TO HIS FIRST CAMPAIGN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE PROSPECTS OF THE CEASE-FIRE CONTINUING FURTHER?

REP. MOULTON: IT SOUNDS ENCOURAGING.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE A LOT OF HOSTAGES THAT HAVE YET TO BE RETURNED.

WE ALL WANT THOSE HOSTAGES BACK.

THE CEASE-FIRE HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE IN ACCOMPLISHING THAT GOAL.

BY THE WAY, IT IS ALL THE MORE REASON WHY HAD ISRAEL AGREED TO A UNILATERAL CEASE-FIRE, AS MANY PEOPLE WERE CALLING FOR IN THE WEEKS PRECEDING THIS DEAL, ALL THE HOSTAGES WOULD STILL BE WITH HAMAS.

HAMAS WAS NOT GOING TO RETURN THE HOSTAGES OUT OF SOME KINDNESS, SOME KIND TERRORIST HEART OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THE FACT THAT ISRAEL AND HAMAS WERE ABLE TO COME TO A DEAL IS IMPORTANT.

MY HOPE IS THAT THAT DEAL CAN BE EXTENDED.

GAUTAM: THAT DEAL WAS NEGOTIATED THROUGH INTERMEDIARIES, PRESUMABLY WITH US PLAYING A LARGE ROLE.

ARE WE CONTINUING TO WORK TO EXTEND IT?

REP. MOULTON: ABSOLUTELY.

SECRETARY BLINKEN HAS BEEN IN ISRAEL.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS CLEARLY BEHIND THIS DEAL AND HAVE BEEN QUIETLY HELPING IT COME TOGETHER.

THERE IS A RESOLUTION MAKING ITS WAY THROUGH CONGRESS TO ESSENTIALLY CONDEMN QATAR, THE DEALMAKER HERE, THE HOST FOR THE NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT IS NOT ILL-TIMED.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF WORK BEHIND THE SCENES TO MAKE THIS COME TOGETHER, DESPITE PLENTY OF POLITICAL PRESSURE AND DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS THAT HAS MADE IT DIFFICULT.

GAUTAM: THE UNITED STATES PROVIDES CONSIDERABLE AID TO ISRAEL HISTORICALLY AND IN THE CURRENT MOMENT.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS BEEN OPENED THAT HE FEELS THAT HE CAN CONTROL THE U.S.

POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT TO THE EXTENT THAT HE HAS A FREE HAND, NO MATTER THE EIGHT.

WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT WITH HOW HE IS DOING THIS?

REP. MOULTON: I HAVE BEEN PUBLIC IN SAYING THAT I THINK YOU STEP DOWN.

I THINK HE IS FUNDAMENTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SECURITY SITUATION IN ISRAEL.

YOU HAD THE SECURITY SERVICES AHEAD OF THE ARMY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR FAILURES ON OCTOBER 7.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS YET TO DO SO.

CLEARLY THE DOMESTIC UNREST THAT HAS FOMENTED UNDER HIS REGIME, HIS EXTREMIST POLICIES, CONTRIBUTED TO THE FACT THAT ISRAEL WAS NOT ON -- NOT AS ALERT AS IT SHOULD BE.

IT IS NOT OUR DECISION IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE IS AN ELECTED LEADER.

THAT IS MY POSITION.

I DON'’T THINK HE IS HELPFUL TO THE SITUATION.

GAUTAM: I WILL PUSH ON YOU THAT A BIT.

IT CANNOT BE OUR POSITION, BUT THE U.S. HAS INTERVENED IN AT ALL -- IN ISRAELI POLITICS ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION.

IF IT IS AS SEVERE AS YOU ARE DESCRIBING, WE HAVE DONE THAT BEFORE.

REP. MOULTON: LOOK, THAT IS PRESIDENT BIDEN'’S DECISION TO WHAT KIND OF PRESSURE HE WILL APPLY.

I DON'’T KNOW WE HAVE DONE IT BEFORE IN AMIDST A WAR ONGOING LIKE THIS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF ISRAELIS WHO WANT TO SEE NETANYAHU GO.

BUT DON'’T THINK HE SHOULD BE ACTIVELY PUSHED OUT WHILE THE BATTLE IS UNDERWAY.

GAUTAM: ON THE AMERICAN SIDE OF THE POLITICAL DEBATE, SENATOR SANDERS HAS BEEN PUSHING TO CONDITION AMERICAN AID.

WHAT IS YOUR STANCE ON THAT?

REP. MOULTON: I THINK ISRAEL SHOULD BE HELD TO THE EXACT SAME STANDARDS AS ANY COUNTRY TO WHICH WE DELIVER AID.

NO MORE, NO LESS.

THE REALITY IS THAT WE DO HAVE SOME CONDITIONS ON ALL AID THAT IS DELIVERED AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT THE CONDITIONS THAT SENATOR SANDERS AND OTHERS ARE CALLING FOR ARE NOT CONDITIONS WE APPLY TO A DIVORCE ZAKIM EGYPT OR SAUDI ARABIA.

I WILL NOT SUPPORT CONDITIONS ON AID TO ISRAEL THAT WE DO NOT HAVE ON AID TO SAUDI ARABIA.

.

HAVING SAID THAT, THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS THAT WE SHOULD EXERT PRESSURE AND LEVERAGE ON THE ISRAELIS TO CONDUCT THIS WAR IN A MORE EFFECTIVE MANNER.

I HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT I THINK THEY ARE KILLING WAY TOO MANY PALESTINIANS.

THAT IS NOT ONLY A MORAL TRAVESTY, IT IS A MILITARY MISTAKE.

THEY WILL LIMIT LEAD TURN MORE PALESTINIANS AGAINST THEM IF THEY CONTINUE KILLING SO MANY INNOCENTS.

GAUTAM: YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE IN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THE URBAN WARFARE THE ISRAELIS ARE FACING.

DRAWING ON THAT EXPERIENCE, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT THEY NEED TO DO?

REP. MOULTON: FUNDAMENTALLY, THEY ARE MAKING A LOT OF THE SAME MISTAKES WE MADE IN THE EARLY DAYS OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

WE FELT WE COULD BRING A MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS FUNDAMENTALLY POLITICAL PROBLEM.

YES, ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT, I WOULD ARGUE, A RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE OUT HAMAS.

YOU CANNOT HAVE PEACE WITH HAMAS IN POWER.

BY THE WAY, HAMAS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE PALESTINIANS EITHER.

HAMAS IS USING THEM AS HUMAN SHIELDS IN THIS CONFLICT.

EVERYONE BENEFITS FROM ISRAEL TAKING OUT HAMAS.

BUT HOW THEY DO THAT REALLY MATTERS.

AND THEY HAVE TO BE A MUCH MORE SURGICAL IN THEIR APPROACH.

WHAT WE LEARNED IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN IS THAT KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS SERVES AS A RECRUITMENT TOOL FOR THE TERRORISTS.

GENERAL MCCHRYSTAL AND AFGHANISTAN COMMISSIONED A STUDY BY HIS STAFF THAT DETERMINED IN THEIR ESTIMATE, ABOUT 10 TERRORISTS ARE EFFECTIVELY RECRUITED FOR EVERY INNOCENT CIVILIAN THAT IS KILLED.

THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR ISRAEL WHEN THEY ARE KILLING LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PALESTINIANS IN THE COURSE OF THESE ATTACKS.

NEED TO TAKE MUCH MORE OF A COUNTERINSURGENCY APPROACH.

THE MUCH MORE SURGICAL IN THEIR MILITARY OPERATIONS.

BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE AT EVACUATING CIVILIANS, ENCOURAGING THEM TO GO TO AREAS THAT HAVE MORE ROBUST HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT.

KENDALL TIMIDLY, HAVING A BELIEVABLE POLITICAL ENDGAME.

BELIEVABLE BY BOTH SIDES, BUT IS RARELY TROOPS CAN FIGHT FOR AND THAT PALESTINIANS CAN SUPPORT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'’T BELIEVE ISRAEL CAN HAVE SECURITY UNLESS PALESTINIANS ARE FREE.

I DON'’T THINK PALESTINIANS ARE GOING TO HAVE SECURITY UNLESS THEY GIVE UP THIS COMMITMENT OF HAMAS.

.

TO ERADICATE ISRAEL.

GAUTAM: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

REP. MOULTON: THANKS FIRST -- THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

GAUTAM: WITH THE MOST INFLUENTIAL FIGURES IN THE HISTORY OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SAKKARI OF STATE FOR PRESIDENTS RICHARD NIXON AND GERALD FORD, DIED YESTERDAY AT 100.

HE PLAYED KEY ROLES IN USING COLD WAR TENSIONS AND BRINGING AN END TO THE WAR IN VIETNAM.

HIS ACTIONS DURING THOSE CONFLICTS LOOM LARGE, WITH COUSINS OR BEST KNOWN TODAY FOR ILLEGAL BOMBINGS IN CAMBODIA DURING THE VIETNAM, WORK FOR WHICH MANY IN THE REGION AND HERE AT HOME CONSIDER HIM A WAR CRIMINAL.

TO PARSE THROUGH HIS TOWERING AND CONTROVERSIAL TENURE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, I AM JOINED BY FORMER MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR KISSINGER ASSOCIATES, DAVID ROTHKOPF.

ALSO A COLUMNIST FOR THE DAILY BEAST.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

DAVID: MY PLEASURE.

GAUTAM: HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OF A CAREER LIKE HENRY KISSINGER'’S?

DAVID: WELL, I DON'’T KNOW THAT I CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT.

.

IT IS A VERY LONG CAREER.

AND THEREFORE, IT IS FULL OF EXTRAORDINARY AND OFTEN CONTRADICTORY COMPONENTS.

AS YOU KNOW, AS SECRETARY OF STATE AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, HE HAD SOME CONSIDERABLE ACHIEVEMENTS TO HIS NAME.

, SHUTTLED DIPLOMACY.

MANAGING DÉTENTE WITH THE SOVIET UNION.

AND MOST ESPECIALLY, PARTICIPATING IN THE OPENING ABOVE THE U.S.

RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA.

THAT IS BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIP THE U.S. HAS IN THE WORLD TODAY.

HAVING SAID THAT, THE CONDUCT OF THE WAR IN VIENNA, THE BOMBING OF CAMBODIA -- IN VIETNAM THE BOMBING OF CAMBODIA, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT LIVES THAT WERE LOST.

THE PARTICIPATION IN COUPS AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT IS A BLACK MARK ON HIS RECORD.

IT IS A BLACK MARK ON THE UNITED STATES'’ RECORD.

.

NONE OF THOSE THINGS WERE THINGS HE UNDERTOOK ALONE.

BUT HE HAD A LOT OF RESPONSE ABILITY FOR THEM.

AND HERE AS WE CONSIDER HIS LIFE, IN REFLECTION, THOSE THINGS DON'’T FADE INTO THE BACKGROUND.

INDEED, FOR MANY PEOPLE, THEY ARE AT THE FOREFRONT OF HIS LEGACY.

IT IS HARD TO RECONCILE THAT.

THAT IS WHERE WE ARE.

THAT IS WHO HE WAS.

GAUTAM: I'’M STRUCK THAT ON THAT LIST, WHAT I WOULD ASSESS THE GREATEST CATASTROPHE AS SECRETARY OF STATE, IS ACTIVE SUPPORT FOR THE -- FOR PAKISTAN'’S GENOCIDE IN BANGLADESH, IN VIOLATION OF AMERICAN LAWS.

DID NOT EVEN GET MENTIONED, WHICH TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE SCOPE OF HIS CAREER, AND THE LEVEL OF DAMAGE.

DAVID: YEAH.

AND I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THAT.

I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED EAST HIMMLER AS WELL, AS PLACES WHERE WHAT HE DID HAD GREAT GRIEVOUS, NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES.

BUT AGAIN, HE WAS A FIGURE IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY FOR HALF A CENTURY.

HE SERVED EIGHT YEARS BOTH AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, THEN SECRETARY OF STATE.

BUT HE WAS ACTIVELY INVOLVED, FOR MANY YEARS AFTERWARDS, AND INFLUENCED MANY OUTCOMES, ADVISED MANY PRESIDENTS.

HE WROTE I THINK 30 BOOKS OR SO.

IT IS HARD TO CRAM ALL OF THAT INTO A CAPSULE ASSESSMENT OF THAT LIFE.

GAUTAM: HIS STATURE AS A DIPLOMAT HAS NO RIVAL IN THE AIR ESSENCE.

IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE JAMES BAKER, FOR EXAMPLE, GETTING THAT LEVEL OF ATTENTION HE DID, OR DATING MOVIE STARS THE WAY HE DID.

CAN YOU CLAIM TO SOMEONE WHO WAS NOT ALIVE DURING THE ERA HOW HENRY KISSINGER SUDDENLY BECAME THIS DOMINANT FIGURE IN THE AMERICAN I?

DAVID: -- IN THE AMERICAN EYE?

DAVID: I AM STUCK WITH THE IMAGE OF JAMES BADER DATING MOVIE STARS.

I WILL TRY TO MOVE ON.

BUT KISSINGER, I THINK HE WAS THE FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE TELEVISION ERA.

HE WAS ALSO A MAN WHO WAS DEEPLY ENGAGED IN DEVELOPING HIS PUBLIC PERSONA.

IT TURNED INTO A BRAND, A BRAND THAT HE USED FOR A COMPANY, A BRAND HE USED TO SELL BOOKS.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR HIM, A BRAND THAT KEPT HIM RELEVANT IN POLICY DISCUSSIONS AND IN DISCUSSIONS WITH PEOPLE IN POWER AROUND THE WORLD.

BY CULTIVATING THAT, HE HAD A ROLE THAT VIRTUALLY NOBODY ELSE WHO SERVED AT A HIGH LEVEL IN THE GOVERNMENT IS HEATED HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO DO.

TO MAINTAIN THAT.

TO BE RELEVANT UNTIL THE DAY HE DIED AT AGE 100 IS ASTONISHING.

PART OF THE WAY HE DID THAT WAS HE REALLY IMMERSED HIMSELF IN UPDATING HIMSELF ON THE ISSUES OF THE WORLD.

JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO, HE WROTE A BOOK ON THE AGE OF AI WITH ERIC SCHMITT OF GOOGLE.

WHICH SHOWS SOMETHING OF THE PLASTICITY OF HIS MIND, THE BREADTH OF HIS INTERESTS.

HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT, I WOULD SAY, YOU BROUGHT UP JAMES BAKER.

JAMES BAKER MIGHT ARGUABLY HAVE BEEN A BETTER SECRETARY OF STATE.

BRENT'’S COCO GAUFF WAS PROBABLY A BETTER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

ANOTHER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR WAS PROBABLY STRATEGICALLY SMARTER THAN KISSINGER.

BUT WHAT NONE OF THESE PEOPLE HAD WAS KISSINGER'’S MASTERY OF THE SPOTLIGHT.

HIS MASTERY OF CREATING HIS OWN LEGEND, IF YOU WELL.

AND THAT IS WHY HE LOOMS SO MUCH LARGER.

GAUTAM: I GUESS WE COULD ALMOST TAKE AWAY FROM THIS THAT IF YOU CAN GET ENOUGH ATTENTION, EVEN DISASTERS OR CRIMES OF REMARKABLE EXTENT, THEY BE LOST IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

DAVID: WELL, I DON'’T KNOW THAT THEY ARE LOST IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

BUT FOR MANY PEOPLE, SADLY I GUESS, THEY RECEIVED A BIT.

PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE CELEBRITY, WALKING AROUND WITH HENRY IN NEW YORK AND IN OTHER PLACES.

AND PEOPLE WOULD COME UP TO HIM LIKE HE WAS A ROCK STAR.

AND HE ENJOYED THAT.

AND HE ENJOYED BEING SEEN ON THE SOCIAL SCENE.

A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WANTED TO BE SEEN WITH HIM.

AND A LOT OF THE BUSINESS THAT HE DID WAS FROM CEO'’S WHO WANTED TO BE ABLE TO SAY, I SPOKE TO HENRY KISSINGER ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS, AGAIN, AND IS A PHENOMENON THAT OTHERS HAVE TRIED TO REPLICATE.

BUT NONE HAVE BEEN AS SUCCESSFUL AS HE WAS.

GAUTAM: DAVID, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

DAVID: MY PLEASURE.

GAUTAM: THAT'’S IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS.

ADAM REILLY WILL TALK TO THE WOMEN IN CHARGE OF IMPLEMENTING THE NEW PLAN TO PROTECT MASSACHUSETTS COAST FROM CLIMATE CHANGE.

PLUS, WEEKS AFTER THE OFFICIAL END OF THE LEGISLATIVE YEAR, STATE LAWMAKERS HAVE FINALLY REACHED A DEAL ON A NEARLY $3 BILLION SPENDING BILL.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

I AM GAUTAM MUKUNDA, AND GOOD NIGHT.