>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> A GIANT OF DIPLOMACY DIES AT THE AGE OF 100.

WE REFLECT ON HENRY KISSINGER'S LIFE AND LEGACY WITH HIS BIOGRAPHER, WALTER ISAACSON.

>>> WITH THE IOWA CAUCUSES WEEKS AWAY, I DISCUSS THE POLITICAL MOOD IN AMERICA WITH COMMENTATORS MARGARET HOOVER AND JOHN AVALON.

>>> THE TRUCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IS EXTEND FOR ONE MORE DAY.

A JOURNALIST LIVING IN GAZA EXPLAINS WHAT IT'S LIKE REPORTING ON THE WAR WHILE FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL.

SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK CITY AND FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

>>> HENRY KISSINGER, ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS AMERICAN SKRA ACCURACIES OF STATE, DIED AT AGE 100.

FROM VIETNAM TO CHINA, KISSINGER WIELDED GREAT DIPLOMATIC POWER.

HERE'S WHAT CURRENT SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN HAD TO SAY ABOUT HIM.

>> SECRETARY KISSINGER REALLY SET THE STANDARD FOR EVERYONE THAT FOLLOWED IN THIS JOB.

FEW PEOPLE WERE BETTER STUDENTS OF HISTORY, EVEN FEWER PEOPLE DID MORE TO SHAPE HISTORY, THAN HENRY KISSINGER.

>> HIS INFLUENCE WAS EVIDENT AS WORLD LEADERS OFFER THEIR CONDOLENCES.

RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN CALLED HIM A WISE AND VISIONARY STATESMAN WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE DAY TAWN IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND REACH IMPORTANT DECISIONS.

IN MIDDLE EAST, HE WAS PRAISED FOR LAYING THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE PEACE AGREEMENT AFTER THE YOM KIPPUR WAR.

HE WAS REVILED MY MANY FOR THE BOMBINGS IN CAMBODIA AND GIVING THE RISE TO OPPRESSIVE REGIMES.

>> I KNOW ALL OF YOU WILL WANT TO HEAR FROM THE NEW SECRETARY OF STATE.

>> AS WE PUT A WORLD AT PEACE WITH JUSTICE, COMPASSION, AND HUMANITY, WE KNOW THAT AMERICA IN FULFILLING MAN'S DEEPEST ASPIRATIONS FULFILLS WHAT IS BEST WITHIN IT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> HISTORIAN AND JOURNALIST WALTER ISAACSON KNOWS HENRY KISSINGER'S LIFE STORY INSIDE AND OUT, WRITING WHAT SOME CALL THE DEFINITIVE BIOGRAPHY.

WALTER, WE ARE SO FORTUNATE TO HAVE YOU JOIN TO US TALK ABOUT HENRY KISSINGER.

AND LET'S START THERE WITH THE IMAGE THAT WE SAW WITH PRESIDENT NIXON, ONE OF THE UNITED STATES' MOST CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENTS, AND HENRY KISSINGER, ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL DIPLOMATS IN U.S. HISTORY.

ON THE SURFACE, THESE TWO MEN COULDN'T BE MORE OPPOSITE.

YET THEY SOMEHOW WORK TOGETHER IN A SYNERGY THAT FEW U.S. PRESIDENTS WERE ABLE TO CREATE WITH THEIR ADVISERS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THEY REINFORCED IN SOME WAYS THE DARK AND CONSPIRATORIAL MINDS THEY BOTH HAD.

THEY WEREN'T TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

RICHARD NIXON MADE ANTI-SEMITIC REMARKS.

KISSINGER GREW UP IN GERM 90, GOT OUT JUST BEFORE THE HOLOCAUST.

YET THEY BOTH HAD A SENSE OF POWER, THEY WERE BOTH VERY MANIPULATIVE.

KISSINGER WORKED FOR NELSON ROCKEFELLER BEFORE.

HAD HE ENDED UP BEING AIDE TO PRESIDENT NELSON ROCKEFELLER, I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN AS SECRETIVE AND MANIPULATIVE.

BUT HE AND NIXON BOTH REINFORCED EACH OTHER'S DARK SIDES.

>> THEY BOTH WERE ATTRACTED TO POWER.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THEY UNDERSTOOD POWER.

THEY UNDERSTOOD BALANCES OF POWER, WHICH WAS A THING THAT MADE THEM EFFECTIVE AT TIMES.

THE FIGURING OUT OF A TRIANGULAR BALANCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA AND THE U.S., SO THAT SENSE OF POWER BALANCE THEY GOT, THEY GOT THE SENSE OF AMERICAN MORAL VALUES THAT SHOULD UNDERPIN OUR FOREIGN POLICY.

>> YOU HEAR IT IN THE INTRODUCTIONS, AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING ALL DAY, HIS LEGACY.

REVERED AND REVILED.

YOU'VE HAD SEVERAL DECADES -- THE MAN LIVED TO BE 100, YET IT'S STILL VERY, VERY COMPLICATING TO DESCRIBE HIM, RIGHT?

EVEN IN ONE SENTENCE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE JUXTAPOSITION AND THE DIFFERING VIEWS AMONG SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST INFLUENTIAL LEADERS, EVEN ON THE NEWS OF HIS PASSING.

TONY BLAIR IN HIS EULOGY TO HENRY KISSINGER SAID HE WAS MOTIVATED BY GENUINE LOVE OF THE FREE WORLD AND NEED TO PROTECT IT.

NOW COMPARE THAT TO WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID TO "THE ATLANTIC" IN 2016.

WE'LL PICKUP IT GRAPHIC HERE.

"WE CROPPED MORE ORDNANCE ON CAMBODIA AND LAOS, YET KISSINGER WENT TO PARIS AND ALL WE HAD LEFT BEHIND WERE CHAOS, SLAUGHTER AND GOVERNMENTS THAT OVER TIME HAVE EMERGED FROM THAT HELL.

WHEN I GO TO VISIT THOSE COUNTRIES, I'M GOING TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN HELP THEM REMOVE BOMBS THAT ARE STILL BLOWING OFF THE LEGS OF LITTLE KIDS.

IN WHAT WAY DID THAT STRATEGY PROMOTE OUR INTERESTS?"

BETWEEN THESE TWO DESCRIPTIONS AND THOUGHTS ON HENRY KISSINGER, WHICH ONE DO YOU VIEW AS HIS BIOGRAPHER MORE CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH THE MAN HIMSELF?

>> I THINK IN THE END, IT WILL BE A MORE PROBLEMATIC LEGACY.

BECAUSE HE DID THINK THAT GREAT POWER DIPLOMACY COULD AFFECT THESE -- WHETHER EAST TIMOR OR CHILE OR VIETNAM, CAMBODIA, LAOS, HE SAW IT ALL IN THE CONTEXT OF A GREAT POWER STRUGGLE, AS IF HE WERE ONE OF HIS HEROES, BISMARCK, ONE OF THE EUROPEAN FOREIGN MINISTERS IN THE 1800s.

AND IN THE END, IT CAUSED A WHOLE LOT OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES THAT ARE TENFOLD THE NUMBER THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE MIDDLE EAST, A HUNDREDFOLD THE NUMBER.

GENOCIDE, WHETHER IT WAS LAOS, CAMBODIA, THE BOMBINGS THERE, THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN LIKE EAST PAKISTAN AND TIMOR.

ALL THESE PLACES GO UP IN FLAMES BECAUSE KISSINGER TRIED TO PUT IT INTO A FRAMEWORK OF THE SUPERPOWER COLD WAR STRUGGLE.

>> HE WAS MASSIVELY CREDIT SYTHED FOR ACTIONS IN CAMBODIA, BOMBING TO ERADICATE THE VIET CONG FORCES, "STRIKE ANYTHING THAT FLIES, ANYTHING THAT MOVES."

HE'S BEEN ACCUSED OF GENOCIDE, BREAKING INTERNATIONAL LAWS.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS KILLED.

DID HE EVER SEEM TO EXPRESS REGRET FOR HIS PAST ACTIONS?

EVEN IF THEY WERE WELL INTENTIONED, IN HIS MIND AT LEAST, TO YOU?

>> I THINK HE EXPRESSED THE SENSE THAT THEY HAD GOTTEN IT WRONG.

CLEARLY IF YOU LOOK AT CAMBODIA, THAT'S THE WORST.

THEY DID SECRET INVASION -- THEN THE SECRET BOMBING OF CAMBODIA, IT WAS CALLED.

BECAUSE KISSINGER OPERATED IN GREAT SECRECY.

BUT IT WAS NO SECRET TO THE CAMBODIANS.

THEY WERE BEING BOMBED.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS WERE KILLED.

AND NOWADAYS WE LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA AND OTHER THINGS AND WE WORRY ABOUT CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

THAT WAS NOT ON HIS RADAR SCREEN.

WHEN YOU COME OUT OF THAT, YOU END UP WITH A GENOCIDE AND CHAOS IN LAOS, CAMBODIA, ALL OF SOUTHEAST ASIA.

SO HE KNEW IT DIDN'T WORK.

I THINK HE WOULD ARGUE THAT HE WAS WELL INTENTIONED, THAT IT WAS TO TRY TO GET US OUT OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

BUT CERTAINLY SOMEBODY WITH HIS BRILLIANT MIND KNOWS THAT IT ENDED UP BEING A REALLY BAD STRATEGY.

>> HIS LEGACY ALSO LOOMS LARGE IN LATIN AMERICA, IN CHILE IN PARTICULAR.

HE WAS CRITICIZED FOR VIEWING SOME COUNTRIES AS DISPOSABLE, DISPENSABLE, AND OTHERS NOT SO.

BEING COMPARED TO CHESS PIECES ON A CHESS BOARD.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID TO CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR ON THE ISSUE SPECIFICALLY OF HIS POLICY AND U.S. INVOLVEMENT WITH REGARDS TO CHILE.

>> WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT AMERICA'S POSITION ON CHILE 40 YEARS AGO?

PARTICULARLY SINCE YOU'VE TALKED REALLY WELL ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY IN LATIN AMERICA?

>> I CAN'T GET INTO THAT TODAY.

BUT IF YOU LOOK INTO IT, YOU WILL FIND, WE DID NOT KNOW PINOCHET, WE DID NOT ORGANIZE THAT COUP.

BUT WE WERE NOT UNHAPPY THAT ALLENDE WAS OVERTHROWN.

BUT WE DID NOT ORGANIZE IT, WE HAD NO CONNECTION WITH PINOCHET WHEN HE OVERTHREW IT.

>> THAT SOUNDS VERY DEFENSIVE, WALTER.

>> YES.

I MEAN, I THINK TECHNICALLY, HE'S RIGHT, THE COUP THAT 87 THROWS ALLANDE AND THE RISE OF GENERAL PINOCHET WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT DIRECTLY ORGANIZED BY THE U.S.

BUT IT WAS THE KISSINGER/NIXON FOREIGN POLICY TO UNDERMINE A LEADER IN CHILE THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS GETTING -- WAS GOING TO GET TOO CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH RUSSIA.

AND HE SAW, AS I SAID, EVERYTHING AS PART OF THIS GREAT POWER GAME.

AND IT JUST ENDED UP HURTING -- HE TALKS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS A LOT IN HIS BOOK "ON DIPLOMACY."

IT'S A MINISTERIAL BOOK.

BUT EVERY TIME HE TALKS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS OR AMERICAN VALUES, THERE'S A COMMA, THEN THE WORD "BUT."

AND THEN IT'S, BUT WE HAD TO PROTECT OUR INTERESTS, OR WE HAD TO FIGHT THE COLD WAR.

AND I DON'T THINK HE GOT THAT BALANCE RIGHT.

>> ONE RELATIONSHIP THAT HE IS CREDITING WITH OPENING, THAT IS CHINA.

HE ORCHESTRATED THE U.S.

OPENING WITH CHINA IN SECRET IN THE EARLY '70s, ALLOWING FOR PRESIDENT NIXON ULTIMATELY TO MAKE HIS TRIP TO CHINA IN 1972, EVEN AS TENSIONS HAVE ONCE AGAIN TURNED MUCH DARKER AND HEIGHTENED BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA.

HE WAS JUST WELCOMED WITH OPEN ARMS JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, JUST TO GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF HOW THE CHINESE AND THE COMMUNIST PARTY THERE DOES VIEW HIM AND HIS LEGACY IN HELPING ESTABLISH CHINA TO A SUPERPOWER THAT IT IS TODAY.

HOW DO YOU VIEW HIS LEGACY VIS-A-VIS CHINA IN PARTICULAR?

>> I THINK THE OPENING TO CHINA WAS ACTUALLY A BRILLIANT MOVE.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ALL THE CHAOS THAT ENSUED BECAUSE OF KISSINGER'S GREAT POWER DIPLOMACY, YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE ON THE BIG SIDE WHICH IS BEING ABLE -- HE DID THIS EVEN IN A SPEECH, I THINK FOR ROCKEFELLER BEFORE NIXON GETS ELECTED, THAT YOU CAN HAVE A SUBTLE BALANCE AND PLAY RUSSIA OFF AGAINST CHINA.

BUT WE NEED AN OPENING TO CHINA.

AND SO HE SACRIFICES EAST PAKISTAN AND OTHER THINGS IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS OPENING TO CHINA.

AND I THINK IT WAS ACTUALLY RIGHT THAT WE SHOULD BALANCE A COMPETITION WITH CHINA, BUT AN ABILITY TO WORK WITH THEM.

AND THAT'S WHY SOMEWHAT AMAZINGLY, AT AGE 100, JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, HE FLIES TO BEIJING AND IS MET BY PRESIDENT XI JINPING AND HE WOULD SAY, WE DON'T HAVE TO BE IN A LIFE-AND-DEATH STRUGGLE WITH CHINA ACTION WE HAVE TO MANAGE THAT GREAT POWER RELATIONSHIP.

>> IT'S FASCINATING THAT PEOPLE, HOWEVER THEY VIEWED HIM, RIGHT OR WRONG, STILL TURN TO HIM FOR HIS THOUGHTS ON EVERYTHING BETWEEN U.S., CHINA, AND TAIWAN TO THE RUSSIA/UKRAINE WAR.

AND IT SEEMS THAT THE ONE AREA WHERE HE SEEMS TO BE A BIT MORE HUMBLE THAN HE TYPICALLY IS, IS ON THE SUBJECT OF NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION.

AND I'M WONDERING IF YOU CAN WEIGH IN ON THAT AND HOW THAT APPLIES TO A RATHER SURPRISING VIEW THAT HE HAD JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO ON WHERE UKRAINE SHOULD STAND.

IN EUROPE.

>> YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO WAY BACK TO HIS DOCTORAL DISSERTATIONS AND HIS WRITINGS AT HARVARD AS AN ACADEMIC AND WORKING WITH THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS IN NEW YORK, HE COMES UP WITH THE IDEAS OF LIMITED NUCLEAR WARS.

AND HE GOES THROUGH THAT.

AND THEN HE REALIZES THAT HE'S GOT THAT WRONG, THAT A LIMITED NUCLEAR WAR COULD MORPH.

SO ONE HAS TO GIVE HIM CREDIT THAT WHEN HE'S DOING THIS BALANCE BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA, PLAYING THEM AGAINST EACH OTHER, TRYING TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, AND DETENTE WITH RUSSIA, HE DOES SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT STRATEGIC ARMS AGREEMENTS WITH RUSSIA.

AND -- BUT IN TURN, HE REALIZES THAT WE HAVE TO BE, OR HE THINKS WE HAVE TO BE SENSITIVE TO THE BALANCE OF POWER ISSUES FOR RUSSIA, AND THAT'S WHY HE FEELS THAT THE UKRAINE ISSUE SHOULD BE SETTLED RATHER THAN ONGOING AND TRYING TO UNSEAT PUTIN.

>> WALTER, I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK OF THE CONFLICT NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

THAT WAR STARTING ON THE ANNIVERSARY, ONE DAY AFTER THE 50-YEAR MARK OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR AND THE HUGE IMPACT HE PLAYED IN NOT ONLY ENDING THAT WAR BUT ULTIMATELY CREATING PEACE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND EGYPT.

THE "FINANCIAL TIMES" DESCRIBED HIS PERFORMANCE THERE AS A VIRTUOSO.

I THINK MANY PEOPLE WOULD SAY THOSE WERE SOME OF HIS STRONGEST ACHIEVING MOMENTS THERE.

>> YOU KNOW, THE MIDDLE EAST SHUTTLE MISSIONS THAT COME AFTER THE 1973 YOM KIPPUR WAR ARE KISSINGER AT HIS MOST INTENSE.

HE SAID TO ONE OF -- IT WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD COMMENT THAT I GOT IN THE BOOK, I'M DESCRIBING THESE SHUTTLE MISSIONS, HE SAID, "I USED TO THINK HISTORY WAS MADE BY GREAT POWER, OF FORCES.

NOW I REALIZE IT'S MADE, WHEN I SEE IT UP CLOSE, BY PEOPLE."

AND HE SHUTTLED BACK AND FORTH.

GOLDA MEIR, SADAT, AND OTHERS.

IN ORDER TO LAY THE FOUNDATION FOR WHAT BECAME THE ISRAEL/EGYPTIAN DETENTE, AND FINALLY PEACE.

BUT HE DID IT WITH THIS INTENSE SHUTTLING, DAY AFTER DAY, TWO OR THREE STOPS A DAY, PLAYING OFF -- SOMETIMES BEING DECEITFUL, PLAYING OFF THE JEALOUSIES AND RIVALIES UNTIL HE WAS ABLE TO PULL THE PARTIES TOGETHER.

>> WALTER, IN THE INTERIM SINCE HE'S LEFT PUBLIC SERVICE, HE STARTED ADVISING -- SETTING UP HIS KISSINGER AND ASSOCIATES COMPANY.

WHAT IS HIS LEGACY AS AN ADVISER TO PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANIES AND TO EVEN OTHER COUNTRIES?

>> YOU KNOW, IN PHYSICS THERE'S A CONCEPT CALLED THE HALF LIFE, FROM RADIATION, WHICH IS HOW MUCH DOES POWER DIMINISH OVER A YEAR, 10 YEARS, 20 YEARS?

THE AMAZING THING WAS THAT FOR 50 YEARS AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE, KISSINGER'S POWER AND RADIATION, I CAN SAY, DIDN'T REDUCE AS MUCH AS CYRUS VANCE OR OTHER FORMER SECRETARIES OF STATE.

THAT'S BECAUSE HE WAS SO VALUED.

WHETHER IT'S A DISNEY COMPANY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET INTO SHANGHAI OR THE AMERICAN INTERNATIONAL GROUP INSURANCE COMPANY OR FREEPORT, MACK MORAN.

HE WOULD BE A DIPLOMAT FOR HIRE WHO WOULD DO TWO THINGS.

THE CEOs TO RUSSIA OR CHINA.

HE WOULD ALSO BE A GREAT STRATEGIC THEY ARE.

SAYING, HERE'S EXACTLY WHAT BUTTONS YOU'VE GOT TO PUSH, LEVERAGE YOU'VE GOT TO PULL, IN ORDER TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS IN THESE COUNTRIES.

>> YOUR BIOGRAPHY WAS PUBLISHED IN 2005.

I'M WONDERING, "A," IF YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD SEE HENRY KISSINGER LIVE TO BE 100.

AND IF YOUR VIEWS ON HIM SUBSEQUENTLY HAVE CHANGED?

>> NO, MY VIEWS ON HIM HAVEN'T CHANGED.

THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE BOOK I TALK ABOUT HIS ACADEMIC WORK ON METTERNICH, ABLE TO PLAY A SUBTLE GAME OF BALANCING PEOPLE'S RESENTMENTS IN ORDER TO CREATE WEBS OF BOTH DECEIT AND POWER.

ALL THE WAY TO THE VERY END, HE'S HAD THIS STRONG MIX OF REALISM, SUPER-REALISM, WHICH IS YOU DON'T CARE TOO MUCH.

>> ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND OTHER THINGS.

YOU THINK ABOUT STRAIGHT POWER AND STRATEGIC INTERESTS.

THAT WAS THE MARK HE LEFT.

AND I THINK HE WAS BRILLIANT AT BALANCE OF POWER DIPLOMACY, BUT HE DID NOT HAVE A FINGERTIP FEEL FOR THE VALUES THAT UNDERLIE -- THAT ARE THE GIRDING, THE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA'S POWER IN THE WORLD.

SO THAT MIX LEGACY, YOU CAN SEE IT 40 YEARS AGO, YOU CAN SEE IT THIS WEEK.

>> THAT BOOK WAS WRITTEN IN 1992, NOT 20 AYE 5, YOU WERE KIND NOT TO CORRECT ME.

>> WE WERE SO MUCH YOUNGER, THANK YOU.

>> YOUR INSIGHTS ARE SO WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU ON OUR SHOW, THANKS.

>>> AS WE REMEMBER HENRY KISSINGER WHOSE LEGACY STILL REVERBERATES IN THE U.S. POLICY TODAY, WE ALSO LOOK TO THE FUTURE WITH A POTENTIAL BIDEN/TRUMP REMATCH IN 2024.

HOW DID WE GET HERE AGAIN?

POLITICAL COMMENTATORS JOHN AVALON AND MARGARET HOOVER JOIN ME NOW.

IT IS WONDERFUL TO HAVE BOTH OF YOU ON TODAY.

LET'S CONTINUE OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT HENRY KISSINGER'S LEGACY, AND MARGARET, THE HOST OF "FIRING LINE" ON PBS, I'M WONDERING, AND YOU'VE COVERED HIM EXTENSIVELY OVER THE YEARS.

I'M WONDERING HOW YOU'RE PLANNING, ALONG WITH YOUR PRODUCERS, TO COMMEMORATE AND TALK ABOUT HIS LEGACY?

>> WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS, ON ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS, THERE ARE PREVIOUS -- I MEAN, BUCKLEY APPEARED WITH WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR., HOST OF THE INCARNATION OF "FIRING LINE" WHICH AIRED FOR 33 YEARS, MULTIPLE TIMES ON THE PROGRAM KISSINGER APPEARED WITH HIM.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY BECAUSE IT'S MULTIPLE TIMES HE APPEARED DURING DIFFERENT POINTS IN VIETNAM, DURING DIFFERENT POINTS IN HIS TENURE AS ESTEEMED STATESMAN, PART OF THE INTELLECTUAL FIRMAMENT, FOREIGN POLICY FIRMAMENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD.

AFTER HIS NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

AND ALSO IN REFLECTION OF HIS TIME -- YOU REMEMBER HE ESCAPED GERMANY AFTER THE JEWS.

HE REFLECTED ON ANTI-SEMITISM.

HE REFLECTED ON SERVING IN THE AMERICAN MILITARY.

HE SERVED IN THE ARMY IN WORLD WAR II AFTER EMIGRATING TO THE UNITED STATES.

SO WE HAVE CLIPS OF HENRY KISSINGER FROM VARIOUS POINTS THAT ARE ALL AVAILABLE ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND OUR SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS.

REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT -- WE SEE THIS, AS HE'S PASSED, BEGINNING TO BE A REAL NUANCED ANALYSIS OF HIS LEGACY.

WHICH IS SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T SEE IN THE PREVIOUS 10, 15 YEARS WHEN THE MAN WAS ALIVE AND VERY MUCH PARTICIPATING IN THE CIVIC AND INTELLECTUAL FIRM AT OF THIS COUNTRY.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT AS YOU LOOK AT A LEGACY IN FULL THAT ALL OF THESE INTERVIEWS AND ALL OF THE CONTRIBUTIONS ARE CONSIDERED IN CONTEXT.

>> YEAH.

AND HE ADVISED 12 PRESIDENTS, JOHN.

AND AS WE DISCUSSED WITH WALTER, REALLY ENGINEERED THE OPENING TO RELATIONS WITH CHINA.

AND AMONG THOSE PRESIDENTS HE ADVISED WAS EVEN DONALD TRUMP.

ONCE IN OFFICE, HE USED HIM AS SORT OF A BACK CHANNEL TO CHINESE LEADERSHIP.

LET'S TRANSITION TO TRUMP NOW AND TALK ABOUT A DIFFERENT BOOK, AND THAT OF LIZ CHENEY WHERE HE DISCUSSED -- SEE THAT TRANSITION I MADE THERE?

TRIED TO MAKE IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> WELL DONE.

>> LIZ CHENEY DESCRIBED DONALD TRUMP AS THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN TO EVER INHABIT THE OVAL OFFICE.

IF RE-ELECTED, HE'S BEEN, LET'S GIVE HIM CREDIT, HE'S BEEN PRETTY TRANSPARENT ABOUT ALL OF HIS PLANS.

ABOUT WHO HE'S GOING TO GO AFTER, ABOUT WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, YOU NAME IT, AND HIS SO-CALLED ENEMIES AND DETRACTORS.

GIVEN THAT, WHY DO YOU THINK HE STILL IS TODAY THE FRONT-RUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION?

>> I THINK BECAUSE HE'S GOT A CORE INTENSE BASE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, ROUGHLY A THIRD OF THE PARTY THAT WILL SUPPORT HIM LITERALLY NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES.

A CULT OF PERSONALITY THAT'S BEEN CREATED, A CULT OF A STRONGMAN.

I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR BEING OPEN ABOUT HIS AUTHORITARIAN AMBITIONS OR IMPULSES, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO SEE CLEAR-EYED THE STAKES OF THIS ELECTION THROUGH PRECISELY THAT PRISM.

>> BY CREDIT, NO ONE CAN DENY NOT KNOWING WHAT HIS POLICIES AND PLANS ARE.

>> YES, NO, I KNOW -- I KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT.

I MEAN, LOOK.

I THINK THAT -- IT JUST -- IT REMINDS YOU OF THE STAKES.

WE SHOULDN'T DRIFT INTO THE HORSE RACE ANALYSIS OF THIS ELECTION.

AND I THINK FRANKLY, THERE'S A FEELING OF WE'VE BEEN SLEEPWALKING, THAT TRUMP'S INCENDIARY COMMENTS, THE POLICIES HE'S PROPOSING, EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, KIND OF WELCOME BACKGROUND NOISE.

AND THERE'S A FOCUS ON THE POLLS AND HOW'S HE GOING TO DO VIS-A-VIS WHAT HOPEFULLY WILL BE A CHALLENGING PRIMARY.

JUST FOR THE GOOD OF THE REPUBLIC.

BUT THAT IS A VERY DANGEROUS THING.

WE'VE BEEN THROUGH A LOT IN OUR NEARLY 250 YEARS AS A COUNTRY, AND WE'VE NEVER HAD A LEADING PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE OF A MAJOR PARTY CAMPAIGN ON A FRANKLY AUTHORITARIAN OR AUTOCRATIC PLATFORM.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

SO BE WIDE EYED ABOUT IT.

AND THOSE ARE THE STAKES.

ONE OF THE THINGS LIZ CHENEY DOES IN HER BOOK IS TELL STORIES THAT SHOW HOW COWARDICE HAS MADE MANY SERVING REPUBLICANS SUPPORT HIM IN PUBLIC, CRITICIZE HIM IN PRIVATE.

A COALITION CREATED TO DEFEND OUR DEMOCRACY, DEFEND OUR CONSTITUTION AGAINST THIS UNIQUE THREAT THAT TRUMP REPRESENTS.

>> IS THAT A POSSIBILITY?

MARGARET?

THIS COALITION THAT LIZ CHENEY SAYS IS SO DESPERATELY NEEDED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU'VE SEEN VESTIGES OF THAT COALITION FORMING EVEN IN THE COALITION THAT ELECTED PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE COALITION THAT TURNED OUT IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS AND DIDN'T SWEEP REPUBLICANS INTO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IN THE VAST NUMBERS THAT WERE EXPECTED JUST BASED ON HISTORICAL TRENDS.

SO I DO THINK, YOU KNOW -- EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING, YOU LOOK AT SEGMENTS OF THE ELECTORATE, THE SUBURBAN VOTERS, THE FORMER REPUBLICANS WHO SELF-IDENTIFY AS INDEPENDENTS WHO HAVE LEFT THE PARTY.

THE COALITION IS THERE.

THE QUESTION IS A BROKEN PRIMARY PROCESS, FRANKLY, ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, WHICH IS A PROCESS THAT IS A CLOSED PARTISAN PRIMARY, WINNER TAKE ALL PROCESS, THAT STACK STATES THAT TREND TOWARD THE FEARLESS LEADER, THAT REALLY PLAY TO THE STRENGTH OF DONALD TRUMP EARLIER, SO THAT HE IS IN A BETTER POSITION TO LOCK UP THE NOMINATION SOONER BECAUSE OF THE WAY HE AND HIS SUPPORTERS AT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE HAVE STACKED THE STATES, THE PRIMARIES, AND FRANKLY, THE ENTIRE CALENDAR.

SO CAN IT BE DONE?

YES.

IS IT LIKELY?

IT'S GOING TO BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

AND THAT'S ACTUALLY WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ACTUALLY TAKE THIS MOMENT TO LEARN THE LESSON OF THE 2016 BATTLE WHEN THERE WERE A PLURALITY OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS NOMINATING DONALD TRUMP, NOT A MAJORITY.

IF THE FIELD WERE TO WINNOW SOONER RATHER THAN LATER AND THERE WERE CONTESTS BETWEEN TWO CANDIDATES, DONALD TRUMP AND ONE OTHER, THERE IS A REAL POSSIBILITY DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT WIN THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION, AND THAT WOULD BE BETTER FOR OUR COUNTRY, THAT WOULD BE BETTER, I BELIEVE, FOR OUR WORLD.

>> JOHN, IT LOOKS LIKE THAT ONE OTHER, AT LEAST SOMEONE WHO'S HAVING A MOMENT RIGHT NOW, IS NIKKI HALEY.

SHE'S WON THE ENDORSEMENT OF THE KOCH NETWORK.

THEY SAID, "IN SHARP CONTRAST TO RECENT ELECTIONS DOMINATED BY NEGATIVE BAGGAGE OF DONALD TRUMP, NIKKI HALEY AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET WOULD BOOST CANDIDATES DOWN THE BALLOT."

DO YOU AGREE, AND HOW BIG A DEAL IS THIS ENDORSEMENT?

>> LOOK, I THINK ON THE ONE HAND, IT'S NOT GREAT AS A COMMENTARY ON OUR REPUBLIC AND THE ROLE OF MONEY WHEN PRIVATE NETWORKS GETTING IN IS AN ENDORSEMENT THAT IS WIDELY SOUGHT, AS OPPOSED TO ELECTED OFFICIALS OR CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS.

BUT IT'S MEANINGFUL AND IT MATTERS.

IT MATTERS THAT A LOT OF THE DONORS ARE GETTING OFF THE SIDELINES.

A LOT MANY THEY HAVE BEEN NOT LEADING BUT FOLLOWING, PUTTING THEIR FINGER IN THE WIND.

LOOK, AS A MATTER OF STATISTICS, IF YOU LOOK AT CNN'S POLLING AND OTHERS, IF REPUBLICANS WANT TO PUT FORWARD THE MOST COMPETITIVE CANDIDATE AGAINST JOE BIDEN, IT'S NOT DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S BEEN NIKKI HALEY.

ALL ALONG.

I THINK CHRIS CHRISTIE WOULD HAVE LOT OF CROSS-AISLE APPEAL AS WELL, PARTICULARLY AMONG INDEPENDENTS, WHERE WERE THERE HE TO EMERGE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE WHERE DEMOCRATS OUTNUMBER REPUBLICANS AND THERE'S AN OPEN PRIMARY.

SO IT IS IMPORTANT, NOT JUST FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT THE REPUBLIC, THAT SOMEONE WHO IS AUTOCRATIC AND REPRESENTS -- IN HIS INSTINCTS AND REPRESENTS A REJECTION OF ANYTHING RESEMBLING CONSERVATIVE VALUES -- THE POLICIES PUTTING FORWARD ARE ABOUT MAKING A MORE POWERFUL EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO WREAK REVENGE ON HIS ENEMIES.

IF THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU NO MORAL CLARITY YOU'VE GOT NO SPINE, NO VISION, NO SENSE OF HISTORY.

I THINK IT'S GOOD THERE'S A COALESCING AROUND NIKKI HALEY AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO DONALD TRUMP.

CHRIS CHRISTIE HAS BEEN A HERO FOR STANDING UP AND CONDEMNING TRUMP IN CLEAR TERMS, AS OPPOSED TO A LOT OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES WHO HAVE TIPTOED AROUND HIM OUT OF FEAR.

WHICH IS NEVER THE RIGHT WAY TO LEAD.

>> WELL, LISTEN.

ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT'S REALLY CHALLENGING JOE BIDEN RIGHT NOW IS NOT JUST WHO HIS OPPONENT WILL BE BUT HIS POLL NUMBERS, WHICH REMAIN PERSISTENTLY LOW.

37% APPROVAL.

59% DISAPPROVAL ACCORDING TO THE LATEST GALLUP POLL.

EVEN ON ISSUES LIKE THE ECONOMY, FOREIGN POLICY, YOU CAN GIVE HIM ACCOLADES FOR HIS ROLE IN THE RUSSIA/UKRAINE INCREASE SISTER.

THE U.S. ECONOMY AS REBOUNDED, ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO OTHER DEVELOPED NATIONS AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

INFLATION IS STILL A PROBLEM, BUT IT IS GOING DOWN.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, THE LATEST ISSUE NOW IS THE WAR IN ISRAEL AND -- AMONG ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU ARE SEEING MANY IN HIS COALITION -- WELL, SOME OF THE MORE PROGRESSIVE MEMBERS OF HIS PARTY, AT LEAST, HAVING A REAL NEGATIVE VIEW ON U.S. POLICY IN THIS WAR.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THE POLL NUMBERS IN GENERAL.

>> SURE.

>> AND HOW MUCH OF A HEADACHE IS FOREIGN POLICY RIGHT NOW?

SPECIFICALLY WITH REGARDS TO THE MIDEAST?

>> I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY A CORE STRENGTH OF PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS ADMINISTRATION.

AFTER AFGHANISTAN, WHICH IS WHEN THAT WITHDRAWAL LED INDEPENDENT VOTERS TO ABANDON PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND THEY HAVEN'T COME BACK SINCE, HE HAS LED ADMIRABLY THE EXPANSION OF NATO AND THE STANDING UP TO PUTIN IN UKRAINE.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE TO BE RE-ELECTED, THAT WOULD BE DISASTROUS -- GREAT NEWS FOR AUTOCRATS AROUND THE WORLD, BAD NEWS FOR COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE.

ALSO STANDING WITH ISRAEL.

I KNOW IT'S CONTROVERSIAL AMONG SOME DOMESTIC AUDIENCES AND THERE'S BEEN A MORE NUANCED VIEW.

THE REALITY IS THERE NEEDS TO BE MORAL CLARITY IN A TIME OF TERRORISM, THAT WE STAND AGAINST OUR ALLIES, STAND WITH THE VICTIMS OF TERRORISM, CONDEMN TERRORISM.

AND NOT GET DRAGGED INTO RELATIVE MORALISM, ESPECIALLY WITH ANTI-SEMITISM BEHIND IT.

YOU DON'T MAKE FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS AROUND SHORT-TERM CONCERNS, YOU NEED TO KEEP THE BROADER PRINCIPLES IN MIND.

AND JUST LIKE CHUCK SCHUMER AS SPEECH ON THE SENATE FLOOR YESTERDAY WARNING ABOUT THE DANGERS OF ANTI-SEMITISM, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT BROUGHT BROADER COALITIONS IN OUR COUNTRY BECAUSE THERE'S MORAL ISSUES AS WELL.

PARTICULARLY HIS OPPONENT WANTS TO DEPORT MUSLIM MIGRANTS FROM THIS COUNTRY.

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

>> FILIBUSTERED HERE.

>> I TAKE ISSUE WITH THE FACT THAT IT'S A CORE STRENGTH FOR BIDEN, FOREIGN POLICY GENERALLY, BUT PLEASE.

>> FINISH THAT THOUGHT -- I WANT TO REBUT THIS PREMISE THAT -- I MEAN, THERE IS THIS -- THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN.

CERTAINLY JOE BIDEN'S DONE A WONDERFUL JOB REUNITING EUROPE AROUND THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE.

CERTAINLY HE'S DONE A VERY GOOD JOB OF BEING AN ADVOCATE FOR ISRAEL IN THE FACE OF ABSOLUTE EVIL SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

BUT JOE BIDEN HAS NOT HAD A STRONG RECORD ON FOREIGN POLICY LEADING UP TO THAT.

HE WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL IN DETERRENCE WHEN IT CAME TO THE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

HE FRANKLY -- I MEAN, IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY OF MOST FOREIGN POLICY INTELLECTUALS ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT THAT IT WAS THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN THAT WAS SO DISASTROUS, THAT PERHAPS PRECIPITATED THE INVASION OF UKRAINE AND THE FORWARD LEADING ASSERTIVENESS OF PUTIN, BECAUSE OF BIDEN'S ACTIONS.

FRANKLY, THE DITHERING WITH IRAN IN THE CONTEXT OF POTENTIALLY RENEGOTIATING THE IRAN DEAL ALSO LAID THE FRAMEWORK FOR EMBOLDENING IRAN'S PROXIES AROUND THIS MOMENT.

I JUST WANT TO REBUT THE NOTION THAT THIS IS A CORE STRENGTH OF JOE BIDEN.

THERE IS A VERY NUANCED ARGUMENT TO BE HAD AROUND FOREIGN POLICY.

I DON'T THINK ANY OF THAT DIRECTLY IMPACTS REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS AS THEY GO TO THE POLLS.

PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT INFLATION, TO YOUR POINT.

THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE ECONOMY.

THEY'RE LOOKING AT, FRANKLY, THE SOUTHERN BORDER MORE THAN THESE LARGER FOREIGN POLICY QUESTIONS.

>> JOHN, DO YOU -- IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU DO DISAGREE.

>> I DO.

>> PUT INTO THE CONTEXT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW -- >> YES.

>> -- WHERE YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORT AID GOING TO ISRAEL, NOW HOLDING THAT BACK BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT HAD BEEN HOPING TO GET AID, A BILL THAT WOULD SEND AID AND SUPPORT TO BOTH UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE STRATEGY REPUBLICANS ARE PUTTING OUT THERE RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHAT THEY SAY IS THEIR UNWAVERING SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL?

>> I THINK IT'S NO STRATEGY AT ALL.

I THINK IT'S NIHILISM.

IT'S THE TRIUMPH OF THE ISOLATIONIST WING OF THE PARTY THAT DONALD TRUMP REPRESENTS.

>> YES, THAT'S TRUE.

>> WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PUT FORWARD WAS A BALANCED PLAN.

AID FOR ISRAEL, AID FOR UKRAINE, AID FOR TAIWAN, MONEY FOR THE BORDER WALL -- >> THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS ALSO SUPPORTED IT.

>> YES, THEY ABSOLUTELY DO.

THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

IT'S A BALANCED PLAN.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE SENATORS ON BOTH PARTIES WORKING TO RESUSCITATE SOME VERSION OF THAT.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE SHOULD BE DOING IS BE FOCUSING ON THE FOLKS WHO ARE WORKING TOWARDS SOLUTIONS.

TALKING ABOUT THOSE SOLUTIONS.

AS OPPOSED TO RADIOACTIVE SQUIRRELS IN CONGRESS GETTING ALL THE ATTENTION.

I'M TALKING ABOUT GEORGE SANTOS AMONG OTHERS.

>> I WASN'T PLANNING TO BRING HIM UP IN THIS CONVERSATION.

>> I APPRECIATE THAT.

AND FRANKLY, THE GRAVITATIONAL PULL IS ELSEWHERE TOO OFTEN.

SO LOOK, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW -- IF YOU WANT TO ASK THE REAGAN QUESTION IN 1980, ARE YOU BETTER OFF AN THAN WHAT YOU WERE FOUR YEARS AGO, IS AMERICA BETTER OFF THAN THREE YEARS AGO?

THE ANSWER IS OBJECTIVELY YES.

IS INFLATION A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

YES.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?

THE ECONOMY IS ROBUST.

DESPITE HIGH INTEREST RATES TO GET INFLATION DOWN.

MANUFACTURING IS COMING BACK.

THE MIDDLE CLASS IS ACTUALLY GETTING MORE POWERFUL VIS-A-VIS WALL STREET.

AND IF YOU SUPPORT A TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY WHICH HAS BEEN BIPARTISAN IN THE PAST, WHICH VANDENBERG SAID, PARTISAN POLITICS OUGHT TO END AT THE WATER'S EDGE.

DONALD TRUMP REPRESENTS A REPUDIATION OF THAT AND A WELCOME INTO YOUR NEIGHBOR'S COUNTRY SIGN FOR ALL AUTOCRATS AND AGGRESSORS.

THOSE ARE THE STAKES OF THIS ELECTION.

IN A VERY REAL WAY.

AND THAT SHOULD ITSELF MAKE GREAT MORAL URGENCY AROUND WHAT LIZ CHENEY WAS CALLING FOR, WHICH IS A BROADER COALITION.

>> JOHN AVALON, MARGARET HOOVER.

REMINDING VIEWERS, YOU ARE MARRIED.

>> WE ARE MARRIED, IT'S ALL A-OKAY.

>> YES.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> TAKE CARE, GUYS.

>> JUST A NOTE, YOU MAY REMEMBER EARLIER THIS WEEK WE DISCUSSED CLAIMS AT INTERNATIONAL BODIES, INCLUDING THE UNITED NATIONS, HAVE BEEN SILENT ON ALLEGED SEXUAL VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY HAMAS IN ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th.

TODAY THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTONIO GUTERRES ADDRESSED THOSE CONCERNS HIMSELF, POSTING A STATEMENT ON X, FORMERLY KNOWN AS TWITTER.

THERE ARE NUMEROUS ACCOUNTS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE DURING THE ABHORRENT ACTS OF TERROR BY HAMAS THAT MUST BE VIGOROUSLY INVESTIGATED AND PROSECUTED.

GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE MUST BE CONDEMNED ANY TIME, ANYWHERE.

WELCOME WORDS EVEN IF IT'S 53 DAYS LATER.

>>> NOW MORE ON THE WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN MET WITH ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AS PART OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS TO EXTEND THE TENUOUS TRUCE IN GAZA.

ADDING TO FRAYED NERVES WAS A FATAL SHOOTING IN JERUSALEM TODAY.

TWO PALESTINIAN GUNMEN WHO HAMAS SAY WERE MEMBERS OF ITS MILITARY WING OPENED FIRE AT A BUS STOP, KILLING THREE PEOPLE.

POLICE SAY THE GUNMEN WERE KILLED BY SOLDIERS AND A CIVILIAN.

>>> LIVING CONDITIONS IN GAZA CONTINUE TO DETERIORATE AS THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION WARNS THAT MORE PEOPLE COULD DIE FROM DISEASE THAN BOMBINGS.

UMAIL SAYID, ENGLISH CORRESPONDENT IN GAZA AND MOTHER OF FOUR, HAS BEEN REPORTING AND EXPERIENCING PERSONALLY THESE CONDITIONS.

MICHELLE MARTIN SPOKE WITH HER TO DISCUSS WHAT IT'S LIKE WORKING AS A JOURNALIST WHILE NAVIGATING DAY-TO-DAY SURVIVAL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HOSTING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

>> YOU'VE BEEN REPORTING ON THE EVENTS SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

BACK IN OCTOBER, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, YOUR FAMILY RECEIVED A DISTURBING PHONE CALL FROM A PRIVATE NUMBER THAT WARNED YOU TO EVACUATE YOUR HOME MEET.

WOULD YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

>> YES, THAT'S TRUE.

MY HUSBAND RECEIVED A CALL FROM A PRIVATE NUMBER.

HE WAS IDENTIFIED BY HIS FULL NAME.

AND HE WAS ASKED TO EVACUATE, TOLD HIM TO "TAKE YOUR FAMILY AND EVACUATE FROM YOUR HOME, OTHERWISE, YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER."

WE LIVE IN A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING WHERE OTHER RESIDENTS ARE WITH US, OTHER NEIGHBORS.

NO ONE RECEIVED A CALL LIKE THAT.

USUALLY WHEN WE RECEIVE CALLS FROM THE ISRAELI ARMY, IT WAS WITH A NUMBER OR IT WAS IDENTIFIED.

BUT THIS CALL WAS DIFFERENT.

THIS CALL IDENTIFIED MY HUSBAND BY HIS FULL NAME, TELLING HIM TO TAKE HIS FAMILY AND EVACUATE, OTHERWISE OUR LIVES ARE IN DANGER.

>> HOW DID YOU INTERPRET THAT PHONE CALL?

DO YOU INTERPRET THAT PHONE CALL AS A THREAT?

>> WELL, IN THE SITUATION THAT WE ARE IN, OKAY, JUST A WEEK BEFORE THAT CALL, LESS THAN A WEEK BEFORE THAT CALL, MY COLLEAGUE, HIS ENTIRE FAMILY WAS KILLED IN A BOMBARDMENT.

AND THEY WERE IN A REFUGEE CAMP THAT'S SOUTH.

THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO EVACUATE.

AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BEEN WITNESSING A LOT OF TURBULENCE IN GAZA IN THIS WAR, BEING TARGETED AND KILLED, OVER 60 JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN ALREADY KILLED IN A MATTER OF 50 DAYS.

50 DAYS OF WAR.

WE GOT TO THE POINT WHERE WE'RE AFRAID TO PUT ON OUR PRESS VESTS BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO BE LABELED AS JOURNALISTS, BECAUSE THAT MIGHT PUT NOT JUST MY LIFE IN DANGER BUT THE LIFE OF MY ENTIRE FAMILY AS WELL.

>> SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE IDF IS TARGETING YOU AND OTHER JOURNALISTS.

WE KNOW THAT JOURNALISTS ARE NOT BEING SPARED, BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE IDF IS TARGETING YOU?

BECAUSE SOME MIGHT HEAR WHAT YOU JUST SAID AND SAY THAT YOU GOT A PHONE CALL THAT IT WAS A LEGITIMATE WARNING TO SAY THAT YOUR AREA WAS BEING TARGETED, AND SO I GUESS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU IS HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE BEING TARGETED AS OPPOSED TO THIS WAS A LEGITIMATE WARNING TO SAY YOU NEED TO LEAVE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY?

DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M ASKING?

>> I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND.

BUT WHAT ANSWERS THAT QUESTION OR THIS QUESTION IS FACTS AND FIGURES.

NUMBER OF JOURNALISTS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED, MOST OF THEM IN THEIR HOMES, MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY TARGETED.

THE FAMILY BEING TARGETED IN THEIR HOME.

THE CALL THAT I GOT OR MY FAMILY GOT WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE EVACUATION CALLS -- >> WAS THE TONE THREATENING?

>> THE TONE WAS DEFINITELY THREATENING.

WHEN YOU IDENTIFY SOMEONE WITH HIS ENTIRE NAME AND TELL HIM, I KNOW YOU, AND YOU CALL FROM A PRIVATE NUMBER THAT YOU USUALLY CALL OTHER CIVILIANS AND OTHER RESIDENTS WITH A NUMBER AND IT'S USUALLY A RECORDED MESSAGE.

SO TO GET THE CALL IN THAT WAY, IN THAT SAME WAY, THAT IS DEFINITELY A THREAT AND NOT A WARNING.

>> SO THE FAMILY DID EVACUATE.

WOULD YOU JUST DESCRIBE WHAT THAT WAS LIKE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I WASN'T ABLE TO EVACUATE INSTANTLY WHEN I GOT THE CALL.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT THE BOMBARDMENTS WERE VERY CLOSE TO MY HOME ITSELF.

JUST MY AREA OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

THEY WERE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND YOU PROBABLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

THAT'S MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO ALL THE BOMBARDMENTS, ALL THE EXPLOSIONS, ALL THE AIR STRIKES WERE IN THAT SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.

IT WAS VERY RISKY FOR ME TO TAKE MY CHILDREN AND TO GO OUT.

SECOND OF ALL, I WAS ASKED TO TAKE MY CHILDREN AND GO TO THE SOUTH ON FOOT.

THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I COULDN'T REALLY -- IT WASN'T EASY FOR ME TO DECIDE ON.

AND I FELT IT WAS VERY RISKY.

THIRD OF ALL, WE'VE SEEN CIVILIANS TAKE THAT RISK AND GO TO THE SOUTH ON FOOT AND GET TARGETED.

AND EVEN WHEN THEY WERE IN THEIR CARS, THEY WERE TARGETED.

INCLUDING UNITED NATIONS CARS.

HOW CAN I AS A MOTHER RISK MY KIDS TO THAT EXTENT?

WHERE I KNOW THAT I'M THROWING THEM UNDER FIRE?

NO.

I'M GOING TO STAY AT HOME.

AT LEAST IF I DIE, I'M GOING TO DIE AT HOME WITH MY KIDS.

RIGHT?

I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THEM TO THE STREETS AND LOSE THEM RIGHT THERE.

AND I WOULD NOT FIND SOMEONE TO EVEN CARRY OUR BODIES BACK.

I THOUGHT 100 TIMES BEFORE I TOOK THAT JOURNEY.

>> YOU DID EVENTUALLY GET OUT OF THERE.

YOU DID EVENTUALLY EVACUATE.

SO WHAT IS LIFE NOW?

YOU'RE STILL WORKING.

HOW ARE YOU MANAGING THAT?

BOTH CONTINUING TO REPORT AND ALSO TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILY?

>> LET ME GIVE YOU A PICTURE, OR LET ME PAINT A PICTURE OF HOUR OW DAY STARTS, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE WAKE UP IN THE MORNING, AND OUR STRUGGLE FOR FINDING WATER STARTS.

SO WE HAVE TO GET OUR CONTAINERS AND GO DOWNSTAIRS AND START LOOKING FOR WATER.

SO THAT'S USUALLY MY HUSBAND'S AND MY 11-YEAR-OLD SON, MOHAMMAD, HE GOES WITH HIS DAD, THEY TRY TO FILL A CONTAINER OR TWO SO THAT WE'RE ABLE TO WASH UP.

AND THEN OUR SECOND STRUGGLE STARTS WITH BREAKFAST.

FINDING BREAD.

FOR A WHILE, BEFORE THE HUMANITARIAN AID STARTED ENTERING IN THE CEASE-FIRE, IT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND BREAD, FLOUR.

THE QUANTITY IS ENTERING ARE VERY FEW COMPARED TO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

AND THEN THE STRUGGLE FOR LUNCH -- IT'S LITERALLY SIX DAYS' RICE, PLAIN RICE, AND ONE DAY EITHER PASTA OR BREAD.

SO FOR ME AS A MOTHER, YOU KNOW -- I TELL MY KIDS, DON'T BE SAD, DON'T BE FRUSTRATED, WE'RE JUST LIKE MILLIONS OF OTHERS.

YOU GUYS ARE JUST LIKE THOUSANDS OF OTHER CHILDREN.

AT LEAST YOU GUYS GET TO EAT.

WE'RE SLEEPING TOGETHER IN ONE ROOM, THE SIX OF US.

AND WE HAVE TWO OTHER FAMILIES WITH US IN THE SAME APARTMENT WHERE WE LIVE.

EACH FAMILY WITH OUR SAME STRUGGLE.

IT'S REALLY THE NATION'S STRUGGLE.

IT'S NOT JUST FAMILY OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE.

AND SO ON.

AT LEAST IN THIS CEASE-FIRE, THEY GOT TO, YOU KNOW, BREATHE A LITTLE BIT WITHOUT BEING AFRAID OF HEARING THE CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT, THE CONSTANT AIR STRIKE, THE CONSTANT ROCKETS FALLING.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH GAZA IS THAT IT'S VERY SMALL, A TINY TERRITORY.

HOMES ARE VERY TIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE EVERYWHERE.

AND THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T SAY THAT THIS BOMBARDMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, IS HAPPENING SOMEWHERE IN THE EAST AND YOU'RE IN THE WEST, YOU CAN'T HEAR IT.

NO, YOU JUST HEAR IT AS IF IT'S NEXT DOOR.

>> ARE THE CHILDREN UPSET WHEN YOU GO TO WORK?

DO YOUR CHILDREN EVER ASK, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO GO?

DO THEY ASK THAT, AND WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> TE TELL ME THAT EVERY DAY.

THEY TELL ME, "DON'T GO TO WORK, TAKE IT OFF, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO GO AND LEAVE US?"

BUT I TELL THEM THAT I HAVE -- THIS IS THE ONLY TIME I CAN DO STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE, I CAN MOVE FREELY IN AND AROUND THE SOUTHERN AREA BECAUSE OF THE CEASE-FIRE.

SO I HAVE TO USE THAT TIME WISELY.

AND BECAUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE DON'T HAVE ELECTRICITY.

THERE'S NO TELEVISION.

THERE'S NO INTERNET.

SO THEY CAN'T WATCH ME, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE'VE GOT VERY LITTLE ESSENTIALS WITH US WHEN WE EVACUATED TO THE SOUTH.

AND I KNEW THAT THEY WERE CARRYING THOSE BAGS, SO I COULDN'T PUT A LOT OF CLOTHES IN IT.

I DIDN'T WANT IT TO BE HEAVY BECAUSE I KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO WALK FOR AT LEAST SIX TO SEVEN KILOMETERS.

I ENDED UP JUST GETTING A LITTLE BIT OF SUMMER CLOTHES THAT ARE VERY LIGHT.

AND NOW SUDDENLY THE WEATHER GOT VERY COLD, IT'S GETTING COLDER DAY BY DAY, AND I CAN'T FIND CLOTHES FOR THEM.

THIS IS ANOTHER CHALLENGE AS A MOTHER.

I GO TO THE SHOPS, I GO TO THE MARKET EVERY DAY.

I TRY TO GET THEM ANYTHING TO KEEP THEM WARM.

BUT I CAN BARELY FIND -- THIS IS TOUGH.

THIS IS SOMETHING, FOR EXAMPLE -- THIS IS A DETAIL, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT OTHER PEOPLE WOULDN'T THINK ABOUT IT.

FOR ME AS A MOM, IT'S KILLING ME THAT I KNOW THAT MY 5-YEAR-OLD IS NOT WARM.

BECAUSE I CAN'T FIND HER CLOTHES.

I HAVE THE MONEY, BUT I CAN'T FIND THE PRODUCT, RIGHT?

OTHER PEOPLE, THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY NOR THE PRODUCT ALREADY BUT NOW WE'RE ALL THE SAME, RIGHT?

>> YOU'RE LIVING THE STORY YOU'RE REPORTING ON.

THIS IS YOUR LIFE.

>> EXACTLY.

I'M LIVING EVERY SINGLE DETAIL IN THE STORY OF OTHERS THAT I'M REPORTING ABOUT.

IT'S JUST THAT I DON'T GET TO REPORT ABOUT MY STORY OR -- I CONSIDER THAT MY STORY IS NOT IMPORTANT.

THE IMPORTANT THING THAT I DO IS REPORT ABOUT OTHERS.

BECAUSE THIS IS MY DUTY.

THIS IS MY TRADE IN LIFE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, PEOPLE DON'T REALLY KNOW THAT I'M LIVING ALL THE SAME STRUGGLES, THE SAME CHALLENGES, THE SAME PAIN, THE SAME WORRY, THE SAME FEAR, THE SAME EVERYTHING.

HELPLESSNESS THAT EVERY SINGLE MOTHER AND FATHER AND CHILD IN GAZA IS LIVING.

OUR KIDS ARE LIVING THE SAME AS WELL.

>> WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE DANGER TO JOURNALISTS IN THE CURRENT MOMENT.

THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS, IT'S AN ORGANIZATION THAT KEEPS TRACK OF DANGERS TO JOURNALISTS ALL OVER THE WORLD SAYS THE WAR HAS LED TO THE DEADLIEST MONTH FOR JOURNALISTS SINCE THE ORGANIZATION BEGAN COLLECTING THIS INFORMATION MORE THAN 30 YEARS AGO.

ACCORDING TO THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS, 50 PALESTINIAN JOURNALISTS, 4 ISRAELI JOURNALISTS, THREE LEBANESE JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

ARE THERE ANY PRECAUTIONS THAT YOU CAN TAKE NOW?

I HEARD YOU SAY EARLIER THAT YOU'RE NOT EVEN SURE WHETHER TO WEAR YOUR PRESS VEST ANYMORE.

WHAT HAVE YOU DECIDED ABOUT THAT?

>> HONESTLY, I WEAR MY GEAR.

BECAUSE I HAVE TO WEAR IT WHEN I'M WORKING.

BECAUSE MY ORGANIZATION FORCE METH TO WEAR IT.

WHEN I'M WORKING.

AND BECAUSE LEGALLY, AT LEAST, SOMETHING HAPPENS TO ME, I'M WEARING MY GEAR, MY PROTECTIVE GEAR THAT SHOWS THAT I'M A JOURNAL ITS, RIGHT?

BUT INSIDE ME, I KNOW THAT IT'S NOT PROBING ME.

IT MIGHT BE PUTTING MY LIFE IN DANGER.

ADDING TO THAT, MEDIA OFFICES SINCE THE WAR, 2021, BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, ALL MEDIA OFFICES IN THE GAZA STRIP, INCLUDING AL JAZEERA AND AP, WERE DESTROYED.

WHEN I SAY ALL, I MEAN ALL.

ALL AGENCIES, ALL MEDIA OFFICES WERE COMPLETELY AND DELIBERATELY TARGETED AND DESTROYED.

AND THIS IS NOT JUST A COINCIDENCE.

WHEN EVERYTHING IS DESTROYED THAT HAS TO DO WITH JOURNALISM IN THAT DIRT, IT'S A COINCIDENCE IF IT'S ONE OR THREE, JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THAT BUILDING, THIS BUILDING, WHATEVER REASON.

WHATEVER JUSTIFICATION TO COMPLETELY ELIMINATE, WIPE OUT, A CERTAIN -- I DON'T KNOW, LIKE THE JOURNALISM CATEGORY FROM THE GAZA STRIP.

I THINK THAT THIS IS TOTALLY ON PURPOSE AND DELIBERATE.

>> I DO HAVE TO SAY, AND YOU ARE AS A JOURNALIST -- YOU UNDERSTAND I DO HAVE TO SAY THAT THE IDF, THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, EXPLICITLY SAY AND HAVE SAID THAT THEY DO NOT TARGET AND ARE NOT TARGETING JOURNALISTS.

THAT IS THEIR PUBLIC STATEMENT ABOUT THIS.

>> I BELIEVE FACTS AND FIGURES.

I BELIEVE REALITY.

I BELIEVE WHAT I AM LIVING.

I BELIEVE WHAT I AM SEEING.

AND I BELIEVE -- IT'S NOT -- I CAN TELL YOU ANY -- I CAN GIVE YOU ANY STATEMENT, AND THE NUMBERS AND THE PICTURES AND THE REALITY SHOWS DIFFERENT TO MY STORY.

>> LET ME SAY FOREIGN JOURNALISTS HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED ACCESS INTO GAZA EXCEPT UNDER VERY LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN EMBEDDED WITH THE IDF, AND IT'S A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE UNDER VERY RESTRICTED CIRCUMSTANCES.

AS A CONSEQUENCE, WE ARE RELYING ON YOU AND OUR COLLEAGUES WHO LIVE IN GAZA TO BRING US THIS INFORMATION.

YOU AND YOUR OTHER COLLEAGUES, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WATCHING YOUR REPORTS, HAS EXPLODED AROUND THE WORLD.

WHY DO YOU THINK SO MANY PEOPLE ARE NOW SO MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN YOUR WORK?

>> BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN SEE WITH THEIR OWN EYES THE GENOCIDE THAT ARE BEING ENCOUNTERED IN THE GAZA STRIP.

THEY SEE THE NUMBERS OF CHILDREN THAT ARE BEING KILLED.

THEY WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT.

THEY'RE MORE INTERESTED NOW ABOUT KNOWING ABOUT THE GAZA STRIP AND THE PEOPLE OF THE GAZA STRIP AND THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS.

I THINK THE WESTERN PEOPLE AND THE WESTERN SOCIETIES ARE OPENING THEIR EYES AND TURNING THEIR EYES TOWARDS PALESTINE, TOWARDS THE GAZA STRIP, AND TOWARDS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

THEY BELIEVE ME, SO THEY FOLLOW ME.

I THINK THIS ALL HAS TO DO WITH CHANGING THE MIND OF THE WESTERN SOCIETIES, THE PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, THE PEOPLE IN EUROPE.

HOW PEOPLE NOW -- THE RESIDENTS THEMSELVES, THE CIVILIANS, HOW THEY DEAL WITH THE PALESTINIAN NARRATIVE AND THE PALESTINIAN SIDE OF THE STORY.

>> DO YOU FEEL LIKE SOMETHING HAS FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED WITH THIS CONFLICT?

IF IT'S CHANGED PEOPLE IN ANY FUNDAMENTAL WAY THAT YOU CAN SEE, THAT YOU CAN DETECT, THAT YOU HAVE OBSERVED?

>> THIS WAR HAS THE WORST TOLL, TRAUMA, PAIN, AND LOSS ON THE PEOPLE IN GAZA.

WITHIN OVER CONTEXTS, OTHER WARS, THEY WERE SHORTER.

THE CASUALTIES WERE NOT AS MANY AS THEY ARE NOW.

THE DESTRUCTION WASN'T AS DEVASTATING AS IT IS NOW.

AND WHAT WE ARE LIVING NOW, IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE SUFFERING THAT WE'VE EVER ENCOUNTERED BEFORE IN OUR LIFE.

AND DEFINITELY, IT HAS CHANGED PEOPLE A LOT.

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOW THINKING, ARE WE GOING TO SURVIVE?

THIS IS THE FIRST QUESTION PEOPLE ASK EACH OTHER.

IT'S THE SAME THOUGHT THAT WE TELL OUR CHILDREN EVERY SINGLE NIGHT INSTEAD OF KISSING THEM GOOD NIGHT AND WISHING THEM SWEET DREAMS.

WE KISS THEM GOOD-BYE, MICHELLE.

>> HM.

>> WHEN YOU'RE A MOTHER AND TRY TO PICTURE THAT WITH ME, HOW PAINFUL IS IT?

EVEN IF I DON'T SAY IT TO THEM, INSIDE ME, AS A MOTHER, I KNOW THAT I'M HOLDING THEM TIGHT AND I'M KISSING THEM GOOD-BYE.

BECAUSE WE MIGHT NOT EVEN WAKE UP.

BECAUSE I MIGHT GO OUT TO WORK AND NOT RETURN BACK.

OR I MIGHT RETURN AND DO NOT FIND THEM AGAIN.

SO YES, DEFINITELY, IT HAS CHANGED THE PEOPLE.

IT HAS CHANGED ME.

IT HAS CHANGED EVERYONE.

THE TRAUMA THAT WE'RE LIVING WITH EVERY SINGLE THING THAT WE HAVE LOST, STARTING WITH PEOPLE, OUR MEMORIES, OUR LIVES, OUR HOMES.

YES, WE'RE GOING TO LIVE WITH THAT TRAUMA FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.

>> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE, FOR HAVING ME.

>> SOBERING WORDS THERE.

>>> NEXT, IT'S DAY ONE OFCOP-28, THE U.N.'s ANNUAL CLIMATE SUMMIT.

ITS PRESIDENT IS ALREADY CLAIMING TO HAVE DELIVERED HISTORY.

DELEGATES IN DUBAI HAVE FORMALLY ADOPTED A DAMAGE FUND TO TRANSFER FINANCES TO COUNTRIES HIT HARDEST BY THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

THE DECISION RECEIVED THIS STANDING OVATION AND NO OBJECTIONS.

IT HAS BEEN A STICKING POINT FOR YEARS AND IS A KEY FOCUS OF THIS YEAR'S GLOBAL MEETING.

AS FORMER WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL CLIMATE ADVISER GINA McCARTHY TOLD ME WHEN WE SPOKE EARLIER THIS WEEK, TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE LOSS AND DAMAGE FUND.

WE HAVE TO GET SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES ON THE TABLE TO ACTUALLY HELP THE DEVELOPING WORLD MOVE FORWARD.

THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE LEGITIMATELY ADDRESSING THE REAL CHALLENGE OF CLIMATE CHANGE WHERE IT'S MOST EXTREME.

>> TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR THAT FULL INTERVIEW.

>>> FINALLY, IT'S THE END OF AN ERA.

BRITAIN'S ONLY TWO GIANT PANDAS ARE NOW PREPARING FOR THE LONG JOURNEY HOME TO CHINA AFTER 12 YEARS IN EDINBURGH.

THURSDAY WAS THE LAST DAY VISITORS WOULD SEE THE ICONIC BLACK AND WHITE-BEARS.

CHINA'S TRADEMARK PANDA DIPLOMACY BEGAN WHEN RICHARD NIXON AND HENRY KISSINGER MADE THEIR HISTORIC TRIP TO CHINA IN 1972, GIFTING THE U.S. TWO PANDAS.

TWO YEARS LATER, BRITAIN RECEIVED THEIR FIRST BEARS, BUT NO NEW PANDAS ARE MOVING TO THE UK ANY TIME SOON AS CHINA PULLS BACK FROM SENDING ITS CUDDLY DIPLOMATS OVERSEAS.

EDINBURGH WILL MISS THEM.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.