>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

TRUMP'S TARIFFS FACE THE SUPREME COURT AS THE WORLD BRACES FOR IMPACT.

THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION SPEAKS TO CHRISTIANE ABOUT NAVIGATING THESE TURBULENT TIMES.

THEN A RECORD NEARLY 60,000 RUNNERS TOOK PART IN NEW YORK CITY'S MARATHON, INCLUDING ELITE RUNNER NICHOLAS THOMPSON.

I ASKED ABOUT HIS PASSION AND NEW BOOK THE RUNNING GROUND.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> HE'S BEEN ABLE TO EXPLOIT THE GRIEVANCES OF WORKING PEOPLE WHO FEEL ELITES LOOK DOWN, AND HE GOES AFTER THOSE ELITES.

>> HOW TRUMP WON OVER THE WORKING CLASS.

AWARD-WINNING HARVARD PROFESSOR SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE DEEPENING DIVIDE SWAYING BLUE COLLAR FOR MAGA.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, THE THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

IN NEW YORK SITTING FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, THE TRUMP WAR LANDS IN COURT FACING ITS BIGGEST CHALLENGE YET.

THEY WILL CHALLENGE THE LEGALITY OF MANY OF HIS ADMINISTRATION'S TARIFFS, A MOVE THAT COULD UPEND HIS TRADE AGENDA AND DECIDE THE LIMITS OF A PRESIDENT'S POWER.

RELYING ON AN EMERGENCY LAW, TRUMP HAS PUSHED IMPORT TAX RATES AS HIGH AS 50% ON KEY TRADING PARTNERS, INCLUDING INDIA AND BRAZIL, AND AS HIGH AS 145% ON CHINA EARLIER THIS YEAR.

AT STAKE ARE ALMOST $90 BILLION IN REVENUE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS ALREADY COLLECTED AND POTENTIALLY TRILLIONS MORE.

TRUMP HAS BEEN WARNING THAT RULING AGAINST HIM WOULD ENDANGER NATIONAL SECURITY AND CREATE WHAT HE CALLS A FINANCIAL MESS.

>> I WILL TELL YOU, THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CASES IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY BECAUSE IF WE DON'T WIN THAT CASE, WE WILL BE A, UH, WEAKENED, TROUBLED FINANCIAL MESS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS TO COME.

>> THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION IS PAYING VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS LEGAL CHALLENGE, AND CHRISTIANE SET DOWN WITH ITS DIRECTOR GENERAL IN LONDON AT A SUMMIT FOCUSING ON AFRICA.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THE FIRST THING AS A FORMER NIGERIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL, PRESIDENT TRUMP THIS WEEKEND ANNOUNCED HE WILL INTERVENE MILITARILY IN NIGERIA.

[LAUGHTER] >> IF THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T STOP THE ANTI-CHRISTIAN ATTACKS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

>> WELL, YOU CAN SEE THAT, UH, THE AUDIENCE IS WITH ME.

[LAUGHTER] >> BECAUSE THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY COMPLEX QUESTION.

LET ME SAY THIS.

NIGERIA IS A VERY COMPLEX COUNTRY.

374 DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS AND AS MANY LANGUAGES.

TWO RELIGIONS.

AND THE SITUATION IS VERY DIFFICULT AND NEEDS CAREFUL THOUGHT.

IT HAS, UH, RELIGIOUS ISSUES INVOLVED IN IT.

IT HAS RESOURCE ISSUES INVOLVED IN IT.

IT HAS DIFFERENT COMPLEXITIES.

SO I JUST THINK WE NEED CAREFUL THINKING THROUGH.

>> I JUST WONDER, THIS ADMINISTRATION, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HAS TO GO TO THE SUPREME COURT IN THE UNITED STATES THIS WEEK TO DEFEND ITS TARIFF PROGRAM.

BECAUSE AS MOST PEOPLE KNOW, TARIFFS ARE A PREROGATIVE OF CONGRESS, INSTEAD OF JUST UNILATERAL DECISIONS BY THE EXECUTIVE.

DO YOU HAVE AN EXPECTATION, A DESIRE TO SEE A RESULT FROM THE SUPREME COURT THAT WILL PUT IT BACK IN THE HANDS OF CONGRESS?

>> WELL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION WE FOCUS ON THE MULTILATERAL ASPECTS OF THE TRADE.

AND WHILE I ALWAYS SAY AND PEOPLE HAVE HEARD ME SAY THIS THAT WHILST YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH THE UNILATERAL ACTIONS OF THE U.S., I AGREE WITH A LOT OF THE CRITICISMS THAT THEY'VE MADE OF THE ORGANIZATION AND THE WORLD TRADING SYSTEM, AND I ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WANT TO SAY THAT THE SYSTEM HAS TO TAKE THIS, THIS CRISIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REFORM.

AND THAT'S THE WAY THAT I THINK WE SHOULD GO.

WE SHOULD NOT WASTE TIME BUT LOOK AT WHAT WORKS WITHIN THE SYSTEM, WHAT DOESN'T WORK, AND HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT?

WE SHOULD USE THIS AS A CHANCE TO REFORM THE ORGANIZATION AND THE TRADING SYSTEM.

>> SO YOU SAY YOU AGREE WITH SOME OF THE CRITICISMS OF THE PRACTICES OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION AND THE GLOBAL TRADING SYSTEM.

CAN YOU JUST TELL US, I MEAN, OF US WHO AREN'T, WHAT ARE THE BIG ISSUES YOU THINK NEED REFORM?

>> FIRST IS THE WAY WE MAKE DECISIONS.

WE ARE A CONSENSUS DECISION- MAKING ORGANIZATION, WHICH IS GREAT.

TRUE CONSENSUS, MEANING THE VOICE OF THE SMALLEST, IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE VOICE OF THE LARGEST.

BUT WE PRACTICE THIS AS UNANIMITY MEANING ALL ONE 166 MEMBERS HAVE TO AGREE TO ANY DECISION, AND YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW DIFFICULT THAT IS, CHRISTIANE.

SO SOMETIMES IT DOES RESULT IN PARALYSIS, AND YOU CAN'T MAKE DECISIONS ON SOME OF THE KEY THINGS.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO MAKE CONSENSUS, WE SHOULD KEEP IT, BUT MAKE IT MORE EFFICIENT IN TERMS OF THE WAY WE MAKE DECISIONS.

ANOTHER IS THAT MANY MEMBERS FEEL THERE'S LESS TRANSPARENCY IN THE SYSTEM NOW, AND THEY ALSO TALK ABOUT PRACTICES, THE FACT THAT BARRIERS TO TRADE ARE GOING UP MORE, NOT DOWN.

AND LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, SUBSIDIES, INDUSTRIAL POLICY, TO TRY TO INDUSTRIALIZE AND PROTECT MANUFACTURING.

GUESS WHAT, CHRISTIANE?

THERE ARE EXCITING THINGS HAPPENING IN TRADE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

WE'VE GOT DIGITAL TRADE AND DIGITALLY DELIVERED SERVICES GROWING AT 8% A YEAR.

WE'VE GOT GREEN TRADE GROWING ALMOST $2 TRILLION WORTH OF GREEN TRADE.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME SERVICES GOING TWICE AS FAST AS GOODS TRADE.

THERE ARE SO MANY EXCITING THINGS HAPPENING THAT IF WE REFORM OURSELVES, WE CAN TAKE OPPORTUNITY OF THOSE NEW THINGS HAPPENING, AND SERVE PEOPLE.

THE ORGANIZATION'S PURPOSE, AS WRITTEN IN ITS FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, IS TO HELP ENHANCE LIVING STANDARDS, HELP CREATE JOBS, AND SUPPORT SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S ALL ABOUT PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT US TO FOCUS ON.

>> THE MOST RECENT BIG GROUP OF AFFECT TRADE JUST HAPPENED LAST WEEK IN SOUTH KOREA.

PRESIDENT TRUMP MET WITH HIS OWN ALLIES AND PARTNERS AND ALSO WITH PRESIDENT XI PING OF CHINA.

I TALKED TO ONE OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIALS, AN EXPERT ON CHINA, MATT POTTINGER.

HE SAID AT BEST, THE AGREEMENT THAT CAME OUT WAS A FRAGILE TRUCE.

IT WAS ALMOST STATUS QUO, ANTE.

HOW DO YOU SEE THE RESULT OF WHAT CAME OF THEIR MEETING AND THEIR, YOU KNOW, SLIGHTLY BACKING OFF SOME OF THE HARDEST LINE POLICIES THAT THEY HAD?

>> I SEE VERY POSITIVELY.

IF YOU THINK BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE INSTALLATION WHEN THE TARIFFS CAME IN, IN APRIL, I THINK I WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO SAY THAT WE WOULD LIKE CHINA AND THE U.S.

TO DEESCALATE BECAUSE ANY ESCALATION AND BREAKUP OR DECOUPLING OF THE TWO ECONOMIES, IT'S NOT JUST CHINA AND THE U.S., BUT OTHERS.

AND MY MEMBERS, MANY OF THEM, SMALLER ECONOMIES, THEY ARE CAUGHT BETWEEN.

AND THEY DON'T WANT TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY'RE TRYING TO BE MADE TO GO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

SECONDLY, DECOUPLING OF THESE SEPARATE TRADING GROUPS, FRAGMENTATION OF THE TRADING SYSTEM WILL RESULT IN LOSSES TO THE GLOBAL GDP IN THE LONGER TERM.

7% GLOBAL GDP LOSSES IN THE LONGER TERM.

THIS IS NOT GOOD.

AND FOR DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, IT WILL BE DOUBLE DIGIT LOSSES.

SO WE ARE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THE DEESCALATION.

I THINK EVEN IF PEOPLE FEEL IT'S FRAGILE AND TEMPORARY, GIVE TIME FOR MORE DIALOGUE, AND COMING TO TERMS WITH EACH OTHER'S DIFFICULTIES AND NEEDS.

>> TRUMP OBVIOUSLY GETS A LOT OF KUDOS FOR CALLING OUT THE UNFAIR PLAYING FIELD THAT CHINESE TRADE PLAYS.

BUT HE HAS IMPOSED DRACONIAN TARIFFS.

BUT EVEN ON ALLIES LIKE INDIA, I MEAN BRAZIL, EUROPE, JUST ALL OVER THE PLACE.

SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN.

USING TRADE AS A TOOL, WHAT DOES IT MEAN IF ALLIES, IF YOUR ALLIES ARE BEING PUNISHED IN THE SAME WAY AS YOUR ADVERSARY OR YOUR COMPETITOR IS?

IF YOU'RE TRYING TO BUILD A FAIR, COMPETITIVE PLAYING FIELD AGAINST THE RISING SUPER POWER?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, LET ME SAY THIS.

GLOBAL TRADE AND THE SYSTEM BUILT OVER 80 YEARS HAS LARGELY DELIVERED PROSPERITY TO ALL NATIONS.

IT'S LIFTED MORE THAN A BILLION PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY.

IT'S MADE BOTH RICH COUNTRIES AND POOR COUNTRIES BETTER.

WAY THEY SHOULD.

WE RECOGNIZE THAT.

AND I THINK SOME PROBLEMS HAVE CREPT INTO THE GLOBAL TRADING SYSTEM THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH.

THAT'S WHY I SAY I AGREE WITH SOME OF THE CRITICISMS THAT THE AMERICANS MAKE.

BUT BY THE WAY, THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES CRITICIZING THE SYSTEM.

DEVELOPING COUNTRIES FEEL THE SYSTEM HAS NOT WORKED AS WELL FOR THEM.

THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN INTEGRATED INTO THE SYSTEM, THEY HAVEN'T BENEFITED AS MUCH.

I WANT TO USE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY TO THE MEMBERS, TO GIVE THEM CREDIT BECAUSE WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW?

A VERY INTERESTING THING.

MANY OF THEM, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE THEY TOOK IT FOR GRANTED.

THE JOKE IS LIKE THE PLUMBING.

I'LL KEEP REPEATING THIS JOKE.

IN YOUR HOUSE, YOU DON'T NOTICE IT UNTIL A PIPE BREAKS, AND THE WATER RUINS YOUR WONDERFUL PERSIAN CARPETS.

THEN YOU REALIZE OH, WOW, THE PLUMBING MATTERS.

IT'S THE BEDROCK OF RULES THAT MAKES THE WORLD TRADING SYSTEM A PREDICTABLE AND STABLE FASHION.

THEY'RE SAYING WE NEED THIS SYSTEM AND WE HAVE TO WORK AT TRYING TO REFORM THOSE THINGS, LIKE YOU SAID.

>> SO THAT'S ALL GREAT, EXCEPT THAT TRADE GROWTH IS DECLINING.

GLOBAL TRADE GROWTH IS COLLAPSING UNDER THIS NEW U.S.

TARIFF REGIME.

WTO NOW FORECASTS YOUR ORGANIZATION THAT ONLY 2.4% THIS YEAR OF GROWTH, BUT JUST 0.5% NEXT YEAR.

YOU'VE DESCRIBED THIS AS THE GREATEST DISRUPTION IN 80 YEARS.

BUT YOU SAY THE SYSTEM MIGHT BE BATTERED BUT IT'S NOT BROKEN.

BUT THAT'S A LOT OF BATTERING.

>> YES, IT IS A LOT OF BATTERING.

>> AND MANY NATIONS, AFRICAN NATIONS, EUROPEAN, SOUTH AMERICAN, ASIAN, THEY SEE THEIR ECONOMIES AT RISK OF A SERIOUS BATTERING OR IN SOME CASES COLLAPSE.

LOOK AT LE SOTO BECAUSE OF THESE JUST TARIFFS.

>> CHRISTIANE, YOU'RE RIGHT.

AND I'VE SAID THAT, IT'S THE GREATEST DISRUPTION IN TRADE IN 80 YEARS.

THE SYSTEM, YOU CAN SEE THE BATTERING BY THE FACT THAT THE TRADE CAME DOWN FROM 80% TO 72%.

BUT THERE'S ALSO ONE THING THAT HAS COME UP, WHICH I THINK ALL NATIONS ARE TAKING ACCOUNT OF.

THE SYSTEM WAS BUILT FOR INTERDEPENDENCE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> NOT OVER OVER DEPENDENCE.

MANY NATIONS HAVE BECOME TOO DEPENDENT ON THE U.S.

FOR DEMAND AND CHINA FOR CRITICAL SUPPLIES.

THIS IS A WAKE-UP CALL TO DIVERSIFY YOUR SOURCES OF DEMAND AND SUPPLY.

>> WE KNOW CHINA HAS MADE HUGE INROADS INTO THE ECONOMY AND THE RESOURCES OF AFRICA, OUTPACING THE UNITED STATES.

WE KNOW THAT THE UAE, THAT REGION IS ALSO DOING A LOT OF THAT.

GIVE US A HEALTH CHECK OF THE AFRICAN ECONOMY.

I KNOW, I KNOW THERE ARE MANY COUNTRIES, BUT IN GENERAL AS A CONTINENT, ESPECIALLY I MEAN NIGERIA, SOUTH AFRICA, THE BIG POWERHOUSES.

>> I WOULD SAY THE CONTINENT IS FORECAST TO GROW.

THE IMF AT ABOUT 4% FOR THIS YEAR AND NEXT YEAR, WHICH IS ONE PERCENTAGE POINT ALMOST ABOVE GLOBAL GROWTH.

BUT IT SHOULD REALLY AIM TO DO, YOU KNOW, MORE GIVEN THE POPULATION SIZE.

BUT STILL, IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT THERE'S A TREND ABOVE GLOBAL GROWTH.

THAT'S ONE.

AND THE CONTINENT HAS A LOT OF RESOURCES AND A LOT OF THINGS GOING FOR IT.

BUT THERE ARE ALSO MANY CHALLENGES.

SO LET ME SAY ONE OR TWO OF THE POSITIVE THINGS FIRST.

BY 2050, THERE WILL BE 2.5 BILLION PEOPLE IN THE CONTINENT.

IT WILL HAVE 22% OF THE WORKING AGE POPULATION OF THE WORLD.

IF THIS POPULATION IS SKILLED, FOR THE CONTINENT AND FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

SO THAT'S PRETTY AMAZING IN A WORLD IN WHICH MANY PARTS ARE CHALLENGED DEMOGRAPHICALLY, WHETHER IT'S EUROPE OR THE U.S.

OR CHINA, THERE'S AN AGING POPULATION OR THE U.K., YOU HAVE A YOUNG POPULATION.

IF IT IS PROPERLY SKILLED, AND YOU CAN'T JUST SAY WE HAVE PEOPLE, THEREFORE WE'RE RICHED.

THEY HAVE TO BE SKILLED.

WE HAVE TO BE UP WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE A.I.

AND SO ON.

WE HAVE 30% OF THE WORLD'S MINERAL RESOURCES.

WE HAVE 67% OF THE WORLD'S LAND.

AND I COULD GO ON AND ON.

A FEW OF THE THINGS GOING FOR THE CONTINENT, BUT HOW DO WE MAKE THIS WORK FOR US?

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH SEVERAL CHALLENGES, INVESTING IN INFRASTRUCTURE IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THEM.

I THINK INFRASTRUCTURE IS GETTING IN THE WAY, LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE, PORTS, ELECTRICITY IS THE NUMBER ONE.

OF SKILLS AND EDUCATION, CONNECTIVITY.

WE HAVE THE AFRICAN CONTINENTAL FREE TRADE AREA, WHICH IS I THINK ONE OF THE BEST THINGS WE HAVE GOING ON TRADE.

BUT WE'VE GOT TO ACCELERATE THE WORKINGS OF THE ORGANIZATION BECAUSE WE ARE TRADING WITH OURSELVES ONLY 15-20% OF OUR TRADE IS AMONG OURSELVES NOW.

COMPARE THAT TO THE EU WHERE MORE THAN 60% OF TRADE.

SO WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO.

THAT BRINGS ME TO THE LE SOTO COMMENT.

I WAS ASKING WHY DON'T WE BUY THIS $200 MILLION WORTH OF TEXTILES WITHIN THE CONTINENT?

IF WE SPEND $7 BILLION TO IMPORT SOME OF THE SAME KINDS OF TEXTILES, WHY DOES LE SOTO HAVE TO STRUGGLE?

IT COSTS 20% MORE FOR US TO TRADE WITH EACH OTHER ON THE CONTINENT THAN WITH OTHERS EXTERNALLY.

SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THAT.

SO WE NEED TO BRING OUR AVERAGE COSTS DOWN.

IF WE DO ALL OF THESE THINGS, WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL THESE WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITIES THAT I LISTED.

BUT I HAVE TO JUST ADD, WHAT MAKES ME EXCITED ABOUT THE CONTINENT, WHAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE DOING.

YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY'RE INVENTING NEW THINGS.

IN AGRITECH, WE HAVE COMPANIES THAT ARE HELPING FARMERS DO BETTER.

IN HEALTH TECH AND CREATIVE INDUSTRIES, ALSO AFRICAN MUSIC AND CREATIVITY, AND I SAY TO MYSELF IF WE HAVE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE THIS CREATIVE, HOW DO WE SUPPORT THEM BETTER?

BECAUSE IT SHOWS WE REALLY HAVE WHAT IT TAKES.

AND WHEN I SAY I AM, I THINK THIS IS AN EXCITING CONTINENT AND I FIND MY COUNTRY VERY EXCITING, IN SPITE OF THE CHALLENGES.

I'M NOT TRYING TO RUN AWAY FROM CHALLENGES, CHRISTIANE, I'M NOT.

BUT I'M JUST EXCITED TO BE BECAUSE OF WHAT I SEE.

>> [CHEERING AND APPLAUSE] >> WELL, WE WENT OVER, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> I'M SORRY.

>> NO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND NOW TO THE DEATH OF FORMER VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY REGARDED AS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL AND CONTROVERSIAL SECONDS IN COMMAND IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

HIS CAREER REDEFINED THE VICE PRESIDENCY AND SHAPED AMERICA'S RESPONSE AFTER 9/11.

A RELENTLESS ADVOCATE FOR EXPANDING PRESIDENTIAL POWER, HIS INFLUENCE STILL LOOMS LARGE OVER WASHINGTON.

WE LOOK BACK AT SOME OF THE KEY MOMENTS IN HIS TENURE.

>> GRADUALLY, I REALIZE THAT THE PERSON WHO WAS BEST QUALIFIED TO BE MY VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE WAS WORKING BY MY SIDE.

>> FOR MOST OF HIS ADULT LIFE, RICHARD BRUCE CHENEY WAS THE ULTIMATE WASHINGTON INSIDER.

>> I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THE DUTIES OF THE OFFICE I AM ABOUT TO ENTER, THE DUE CITIES OF THE OFFICE I'M ABOUT TO ENTER.

>> NAMED AS GEORGE BUSH'S RUNNING MATE IN 2000, HE BECAME A NO-NONSENSE POWERFUL POLITICIAN TO WHOM AND THROUGH WHOM ACCESS AND INFLUENCE FLOWED.

HIS APPEARANCE AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT WAS BY NO MEANS HIS FIRST IN THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT.

HE BEGAN AS PUBLIC SERVICE CAREER IN THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, WORKING IN SEVERAL WHITE HOUSE JOBS DEALING WITH THE ECONOMY.

AFTER PRESIDENT NIXON RESIGNED BECAUSE OF WATERGATE, CHENEY WORKED FOR THE NEW PRESIDENT GERALD FORD EVENTUALLY BECOMING HIS CHIEF OF STAFF.

WHEN THAT 29-MONTH PRESIDENCY ENDED, CHENEY RETURNED TO HIS HOME IN WYOMING.

BUT IT WAS A VERY SHORT STAY.

ELECTED AS THE STATE'S ONLY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, CHENEY RETURNED TO THE CAPITOL AND SERVED FOR A DECADE IN CONGRESS.

HE WAS IN THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP HIERARCHY WHEN THE FIRST PRESIDENT BUSH CHOSE HIM TO BE HIS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

IN CHARGE OF THE PENTAGON, CHENEY WAS INSTANTLY ENGAGED IN TWO OF THE MILITARY'S LARGEST AND MOST COMPLICATED OPERATIONS SINCE THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

FIRST, HE LED THE REMOVAL OF PANAMA'S NORIEGA FROM POWER.

AND THEN, OPERATION DESERT STORM.

THE AMERICAN AND ALLIED RESPONSE AFTER THE INVASION OF KUWAIT BY SADDAM HUSSEIN.

>> WE HAVE IN EFFECT DESTROYED MOST OF THE IRAQI ARMY.

WE HAVE TAKEN OUT MOST OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

THE LIGHTS ARE OUT IN BAGHDAD.

>> HIS EXPERIENCE AND STEADFASTNESS WERE OF CRITICAL IMPORTANCE, AND THOSE TRAITS WERE NOT UNNOTICED.

OUT OF GOVERNMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YEARS DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, CHENEY BECAME HEAD OF IT KEPT HIM STEEPED IN FOREIGN POLICY AND BECAME A LIGHTNING ROD FOR HIS CRITICS.

BY THE TIME THEY SECURED THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION, CHENEY'S HEALTH WAS A MAJOR CONCERN.

THREE MILD HEART ATTACKS AND A QUADRUPLE BYPASS BEFORE HE WAS 50.

DOCTORS GAVE HIM A GREEN LIGHT, BUT SHORTLY AFTER THE 2000 ELECTION, HE SUFFERED ANOTHER MILD HEART ATTACK.

>> I'VE GOT A DOCTOR THAT FOLLOWS ME AROUND 24 HOURS A DAY THAT COMES WITH THE JOB AS VICE PRESIDENT.

>> HE BECAME A TARGET FOR BUSH ADMINISTRATION CRITICS ESPECIALLY FOR CONVENING OIL AND ENERGY INDUSTRY REPRESENTATIVES TO A WHITE HOUSE MEETING, AND THEN DECLINING TO MAKE PUBLIC ANY CONTENTS OF THE SESSIONS.

>> AND LATER, AFTER THE TERRORIST ATTACKS ON 9/11, HE BECAME AT TIMES INVISIBLE TO THE PUBLIC.

ONLY A FEW PEOPLE KNEW WHERE HE WAS FOR MUCH OF THE TIME.

BUT BEHIND THE SCENES, CHENEY WAS A DRIVING FORCE BEHIND SOME OF THE BIGGEST CONTROVERSIES OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

MISTAKES MADE AND CONCERNS AMONG SOME REPUBLICANS THAT THE WAR HAD DAMAGED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S CREDIBILITY.

>> I SIMPLY DON'T ACCEPT THE PREMISE OF YOUR QUESTION.

I JUST THINK IT'S HOGWASH.

>> THE HEALTH PROBLEMS RETURNED AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE, FOR A TIME DRASTICALLY ALTERING HIS APPEARANCE.

ANOTHER HEART ATTACK IN 2010 PROMPTED DOCTORS TO IMPLANT A BATTERY OPERATED DEVICE TO HELP HIS HEART PUMP BLOOD.

HIS HEALTH SEEMED TO STABILIZE AFTER A 2012 HEART TRANSPLANT AT THE AGE OF 71.

CHEN.Y LARGELY DISAPPEARED FROM PUBLIC LIFE UNTIL EMERGING AT THE SITE OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION ONE YEAR AFTER IT HAPPENED.

DURING A MOMENT OF SILENCE ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, CHENEY ACCOMPANIED HIS DAUGHTER, LIZ CHENEY, ALSO A MEMBER OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE THAT INVESTIGATED THE ATTACK.

HE WAS WARMLY GREETED BY THE HOUSE SPEAKER, DEMOCRAT NANCY PELOSI.

>> OUR NATION'S 246-YEAR HISTORY, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN ININDIVIDUAL WHO IS A GREATER THREAT TO OUR REPUBLIC THAN DONALD TRUMP.

>> LATER THAT YEAR, CHENEY TRIED TO HELP HIS DAUGHTER'S PRIMARY CAMPAIGN AFTER SHE CAME UNDER FIRE FROM FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS DEVOTED SUPPORTERS OVER HER WORK ON THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

>> HE'S A COWARD.

A REAL MAN WOULDN'T LIE TO HIS SUPPORTERS.

>> WHEN HE RAN IN 2024 AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS, CHENEY ENDORSED THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE.

>> DICK CHENEY WILL BE VOTING FOR KAMALA HARRIS.

>> THERE WERE JUST AS MANY, PERHAPS MORE WHO SAW HIM AS A RESOLUTE, DISCIPLINED LOYALIST WHO WOUND UP BECOMING ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL AND POWERFUL VICE PRESIDENTS IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT ANY VICE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO KNOW IS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THE PRESIDENT HE WORKS FOR WANTS HIM TO DO.

>> AND NOW TO THE SPIRIT OF RUNNING.

ON FULL DISPLAY THIS WEEKEND AS NEARLY 60,000 RUNNERS TOOK TO THE STREETS OF NEW YORK CITY FOR THE LEGENDARY MARATHON.

KIPUTO WON BY 300ths OF A SECOND.

BIRRIE SET A WOMEN'S COURSE RECORD FINISHING IN 219.51.

FINISHING LAST TO A WAVE OF CHEERS AND TEARS, THE CROWD WAS VENEZUELAN DE SANTOS, AN AMPUTEE WHO RAN FOR OVER 15 HOURS.

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN, CLOSER TO THE FIRST FINISHES WAS OUR NEXT GUEST, NICHOLAS THOMPSON, CEO OF THE ATLANTIC AND A SERIOUS ELITE RUNNER IN HIS OWN RIGHT.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, THE RUNNING GROUND, HE EXPLORES WHAT FUELS THAT PASSION.

AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

NICK, BY GOOD FRIEND, IT IS CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS BOOK.

I READ IT IN ONE DAY, IN ONE SITTING ALMOST.

IT'S A WONDERFUL READ.

AND I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT YOU.

AND AS A FELLOW RUNNER, THERE'S SO MUCH I IDENTIFIED WITH AS WELL, EVEN THOUGH I'M MUCH SLOWER THAN YOU.

LET'S START OUT WITH THE MARATHON ON SUNDAY.

I KNOW YOU WERE DISAPPOINTED WITH YOUR TIME.

JUST TO GIVE THE VIEWERS A SENSE OF YOUR TIME, YOU FINISHED IN THREE HOURS, SIX MINUTES, AND 41 SECONDS.

I LOOKED THIS UP ON ChatGPT, THAT'S THE 85th TO 90th PERCENTILE OF ALL FINISHERS.

YOUR SON SAID DO NOT POST THAT RACE ON STRAVA, WHICH IS A FITNESS APP.

ENTER ANOTHER ONE IMMEDIATELY AND BURY THAT GARBAGE.

WHY WERE YOU DISAPPOINTED IN THAT TIME, NICK IT'S INCREDIBLE.

>> YOU KNOW, EVERY FINISH IS BEAUTIFUL.

EVERY FINISH IS WONDERFUL.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO OUT AND YOU'RE TRYING TO RUN, LIKE I WANTED TO RUN A LOT FASTER.

IT WASN'T MY DAY, SO I RAN A LOT SLOWER.

SOMETIMES YOU'RE HAPPY.

SOMETIMES YOU'RE SAD.

THE SERIOUS POINT IS, IT IS WONDERFUL.

EVERY FINISH IS A GIFT.

IT WAS BEAUTIFUL.

BUT IN MARATHONING, YOU SET VERY SPECIFIC GOALS.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM.

MOST PEOPLE THINK YOU DID GREAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU FINISHED.

SOMETIMES AS YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PSYCHED, AND SOMETIMES YOU'RE NOT.

>> MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW YOU HAVE TO WAKE UP AT UNGODLY HOURS FOR A RACE.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT EVEN THE TRAINING FOR THE RACE.

LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT RACE DAY, ESPECIALLY HERE IN NEW YORK.

YOU HAVE TO WAKE UP SOME PEOPLE ABOUT SEVEN HOURS BEFORE THEY START THE RACE AND TREK ON A FERRY AND ON BUSES ALL THE WAY TO STATEN ISLAND IN THE SHIVERING COLD SOMETIMES OR THE RAIN.

AND EAT AT 2:00 OR 3:00 IN THE MORNING WHILE YOUR FAMILY IS NICE AND COZY IN BED.

I BELIEVE THIS IS YOUR 12th NEW YORK CITY MARATHON?

I'M NOT SURE.

DETAILING THAT TREK TO THE START LINE.

WHY DO YOU DO IT?

EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS SUCH A SPECIAL EVENT.

YOU DO IT MUCH BETTER THAN I DO.

>> WELL, THE NEW YORK CITY MARATHON IS A PARTICULARLY SPECIAL EVENT, RIGHT?

I LIVE IN NEW YORK, AND IT CROSSES THROUGH ALL FIVE BOROUGHS.

IT MAKES IT HARD TO GET TO THE START, BUT IT MEANS YOU'RE PASSING THROUGH THE ENTIRE CITY IN A MAGICAL WAY.

AND FOR ME, THE RACE HAS REALLY CAUGHT UP WITH DEEP, EMOTIONAL THINGS.

IT WAS THE FIRST MARATHON I RAN REALLY FAST WHEN I WAS 30 YEARS OLD.

I HAD STRUGGLED FOR A DECADE TO BREAK THREE HOURS, AND THEN I DID.

I RAN TWO HOURS AND 43 MINUTES IN NEW YORK.

I FELT ON TOP OF THE WORLD.

THAT'S A GREAT TIME.

RIGHT AFTER, I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH THYROID CANCER, AND THERE WAS THIS TWO-YEAR JOURNEY TO GET BACK WITH SURGERIES, RADIATION.

IT WAS VERY HARD.

THEN I CAME BACK IN 2007, AND I RAN THE EXACT SAME RACE IN THE EXACT SAME TIME, TWO HOURS AND 43 MINUTES.

AND SO THIS RACE IN PARTICULAR HAS EMOTIONAL RESONANCE TO ME BECAUSE IT'S A REMINDER THAT I'M ALIVE AND I GOT THROUGH THIS VERY HARD THING THAT HAPPENED NOW 20 YEARS AGO.

>> AND AS A CANCER THRIVER NOW, YOU TALK ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK JUST THE FACT THAT YOU APPRECIATE LIFE MORE.

IT'S MADE YOU HAPPIER AS A HUSBAND, AS A FATHER, AS AN ENTREPRENEUR AND AS A RUNNER.

THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO YOUR CASE.

YOU LAY OUT THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO SURVIVE A DISEASE LIKE CANCER AND COME OUT THRIVING APPRECIATE LIFE A LOT MORE.

AND THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

.

NICK, IF YOU COULD JUST READ FOR US IF YOU DON'T MIND A PASSAGE FROM YOUR BOOK JUST TO GIVE US SORT OF A DAY IN THE LIFE OF WHAT TRAINING TO BE AN ELITE RUNNER FEELS LIKE AND HOW GRUELING IT IS.

SERIOUS MARATHONER, THIS PASSAGE APPLIES TO YOU.

TO GET FASTER, PARTICULARLY IN A LONG RACE LIKE A MARATHON, YOU HAVE TO GET OUT EVERY DAY AND RUN.

EVEN WHEN YOU'RE SORE, TIRED, COLD, GRUMPY, BUSY, OR ALL OF THE ABOVE.

YOU HAVE TO RUN WHEN YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH ACHES, BLISTERS, CRAMPS, DIARRHEA, EXHAUSTION, INGROWN TOENAILS, JOCK ITCH, LIGHTHEADEDNESS, MENSTRUATION, NUMBNESS, OVERHEATING, QUEASINESS, RASHES, SWELLING, TOOTHACHES, VOMIT, WOUNDS.

AND YOU HAVE TO RUN WHEN YOU'RE ZONKED.

THE DEEPER TRUTH ABOUT TRAINING FOR A MARATHON IS YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO RUN WHEN YOU'RE HURT AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO HURT WHEN YOU RUN.

YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO ENJOY THE PAIN.

THAT WAS A HARD PASSAGE TO WRITE.

COMING UP WITH AN X FOR THE ALPHABETICAL LIST WAS TOUGH, BUT I GOT XANTHOMAS.

>> THAT'S HOW I GOT TO COMPLETE THE MARATHONS.

NOT NEARLY AS MANY AS YOU HAVE.

WHY CAN YOU NOT IMAGINE LIFE WITHOUT THAT NOW?

>> A, IT'S A REMINDER ABOUT WHAT I GOT THROUGH.

B, IT'S A WAY TO KIND OF SET A STOIC GOAL AND TO SET AN OBJECTIVE.

AND YOU KIND OF REPEAT AND RELEARN THAT LESSON OF WHAT IT MEANS TO SET A GOAL, HOW TO PACE YOURSELF, HOW TO GET OUT EVERY DAY, AND THEN WHAT I SAY ABOUT YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO ENJOY THE PAIN, IT ISN'T JUST THE PAIN WHILE YOU RUN.

IT'S KIND OF THE ACHE YOU HAVE.

AND YOU'VE HAD THIS A LOT.

YOU HIT TWO MARATHONS IN THE LAST MONTH WHERE YOU'RE TRAINING SO HARD AND PUSHING YOURSELF TO THE LIMITS OF WHAT YOU CAN DO PHYSICALLY, BUT YOU'RE NOT ACROSS THE RED LINE.

YOU'RE NOT AT THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE BREAKING YOURSELF DOWN, BUT YOU ARE AT THE POINT WHEN YOU STAND UP FROM YOUR CHAIR, YOU FEEL THAT ACHE IN YOUR QUADS AND FEEL IT IN YOUR CALVES.

IT'S A REMINDER OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR BODY.

AS WE GET OLDER AND AS WE GET PAST OUR PHYSICAL PEAK, THE FACT THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO PUSH OURSELVES AND CONTINUE TO GET STRONGER IS A REALLY BEAUTIFUL FEELING ABOUT BEING ALIVE.

AND SO THAT'S WHY I KEEP DOING IT.

AT SOME POINT, I'LL STOP.

I'M 50 YEARS OLD.

YOU CAN'T RUN FOREVER.

AT SOME POINT, I'LL STOP RACING.

AT SOME POINT, I'LL STOP RUNNING.

I'LL KEEP DOING BOTH AS LONG AS I CAN.

>> I THINK THE OLDEST RUNNER ON SUNDAY WAS WELL INTO HIS 90s.

SO I THINK YOU HAVE MANY, MANY MORE YEARS AHEAD OF YOU.

AND EVERY SINGLE RUNNER HAS A STORY AS TO WHAT GOT THEM INTO RUNNING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AN INSPIRATION, MOST PEOPLE AT LEAST.

AND FOR YOU, THAT WAS YOUR FATHER WHO WAS ALSO A DISTANCE RUNNER, QUITE GOOD AT IT.

YOU RAN YOUR FIRST MILE.

THERE'S A PICTURE OF YOU WITH LONG HAIR.

I REALLY DIG THIS LOOK.

>> THANK YOU.

NICK, BUT IT WORKS.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> YOU RAN YOUR FIRST MILE AS A VERY YOUNG CHILD RUNNING ALONGSIDE YOUR DAD AS HE TRAINED.

YOU WRITE RUNNING CONNECTS ME TO MY FATHER.

IT REMINDS ME OF MY FATHER, AND IT GIVES ME A WAY TO AVOID BECOMING MY FATHER.

AND THOSE LAST FEW WORDS, YOU HAD A VERY COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR FATHER WHO'S A VERY COMPLICATED MAN.

HE PASSED AWAY RECENTLY.

THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF LOVE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.

THERE WAS ALSO A LOT OF TORMENT.

YOUR FATHER'S OWN PERSONAL DEMONS, HIS STRUGGLE WITH ALCOHOLISM, HIS STRUGGLE WITH HIS OWN SEXUALITY, JUST TALK ABOUT THE ROLE HE PLAYED IN YOUR LIFE AS NOT ONLY HIS SON BUT A RUNNER LIKE HIM.

>> YEAH.

SO MY FATHER'S AN AMAZING PERSON.

HE GROWS UP IN A TOUGH SITUATION IN OKLAHOMA.

HE BUSTS OUT, GETS SCHOLARSHIPS, JOHN F KENNEDY SAYS THIS KID'S GONNA BE PRESIDENT, COMES BACK, MARRIES MY MOTHER WHO IS A PROMINENT WASHINGTON FAMILY.

MY GRANDFATHER WAS UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

MY FATHER IS MARRYING INTO THIS WORLD HE ONLY COULD HAVE IMAGINED, AND EVERYBODY THINKS IT'S JUST GONNA BE A ROCKET SHIP UPWARDS.

THEN HE STARTS TO STRUGGLE.

HE DOESN'T FULFILL HIS PROFESSIONAL AMBITIONS.

HE DRINKS TOO MUCH.

IT'S A LITTLE CHAOTIC.

AFTER I'M BORN, HE REALIZES HE'S GAY, AND HE COMES OUT OF THE CLOSET.

HE LEAVES MY MOTHER, MOVES TO WASHINGTON.

IN SOME WAYS, HE BECOMES A GAY CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER.

HE ALSO HAS THIS, YOU KNOW, REALLY ROUGH SEX ADDICTION, AND HIS LIFE BECOMES INCREDIBLY CHAOTIC.

AND YOU KNOW, IT ENDS WITH HIM BANKRUPT RUNNING SOMETHING KIND OF LIKE A BROTHEL IN BALI.

IN THE PROCESS, LIKE IN THAT PERIOD WHERE HE'S COMING OUT AND HIS LIFE IS CHANGING DRAMATICALLY AND EVERYTHING IS CHAOS, HE STARTS TO RUN.

IT'S THE END OF THE '70s.

HIS FATHER JUST PASSED AWAY, THINGS.

AND I'M FIVE OR SIX YEARS ODE, SO HE STARTS TO TAKE ME RUNNING.

I'LL RUN A MILE, RUN TWO MILES WITH HIM.

THAT'S HOW I LEARNED THE SPORT.

THEN WHEN I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD, I GO TO THE QUEENSBORO BRIDGE, MILE 16.

IT'S ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF THE RACE.

IT'S LOUD.

YOU GO ON THE BRIDGE, IT'S KIND OF SHADY, QUIET, STRANGE.

IT'S STEEP UPHILL, THEN YOU GO DOWN, AND YOU HEAR THE LOUDNESS CLIMBING, CLIMBING, CLIMBING.

I WAS ONE OF THOSE FANS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BRIDGE.

I GIVE HIM A NEW PAIR OF SHOES, A GLASS OF ORANGE JUICE, HE HURRIES ON.

SO THOSE MEMORIES OF HIM RUNNING, OF HIM STRONG, OF HIM RUNNING WITH HIM IMPLANTED THEMSELVES IN ME.

SOMETHING HIS FRIENDS TOLD ME WHEN I WAS DOING RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK, THAT RUNNING HELPED HIM CONTROL HIS DEMONS AT THIS HARD PART OF HIS LIFE.

RUNNING HELPED HIM STAY DISCIPLINED, STRONG, AND CONNECTED.

I ALWAYS FELT THAT RUNNING FOR ME IS A WAY TO CONNECT ME TO HIM, THIS THING WE DID TOGETHER, AND WE DID IN OUR ADULTHOOD.

BUT IT'S ALSO A WAY TO KIND OF BE DIFFERENT FROM HIM, RIGHT?

TO KEEP MY DISCIPLINE, TO KEEP THAT STOICISM, TO KEEP THE SENSE THAT EVERY DAY YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP THINGS IN CONTROL.

IT ISN'T A COINCIDENCE I DON'T THINK THAT AFTER HE DIED, THAT'S WHEN I GOT MUCH FASTER.

I WENT TO A 229 TO SETTING RECORDS.

I THINK IT WAS PARTLY, YOU KNOW, RUNNING MORE INTENSELY WAS A WAY TO MOURN HIM, AND ALSO TO NOT BE HIM.

>> YEAH.

YOU TOOK THE BEST OF YOUR DAD FROM EVERYTHING I READ IN THIS BOOK, AND I HAVE TO SAY YOU YOURSELF ARE AN INCREDIBLE FATHER.

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU JUGGLE EVERYTHING FROM MANAGING A COMPANY TO MANAGING YOUR RUNNING SCHEDULE, AND OBVIOUSLY MOST IMPORTANTLY YOUR FAMILY.

QUICKLY, FOR THOSE AT HOME THAT SAY THIS IS SO INTIMIDATING, THERE'S NO WAY I CAN PICK UP A PAIR OF SNEAKERS AND START RUNNING MYSELF, A FEW WORDS OF ADVICE IN THAT EVERYONE CAN REALLY GO OUT AND JOG.

>> EVERYONE CAN GO OUT AND JOG, NO MATTER YOUR BODY TYPE.

LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO RAN THE LOOK AT THE PERSON WHO FINISHED LAST, WHO FINISHED THE WHOLE THING.

THIS IS WHAT I RECOMMEND.

GET A PAIR OF RUNNING SHOES, GO OUT THE DOOR.

MAYBE YOU RUN TO ONE STREET LIGHT.

MAYBE YOU RUN TO THE NEXT BLOCK.

AS YOU DO IT, CLOSE EVERY SENSE BUT ONE.

JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HEAR, RIGHT?

AND FOCUS ON THAT FOR A SECOND.

OR JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SEE.

OR THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SMELL.

OR JUST THINK ABOUT YOUR BODY.

THINK ABOUT YOUR HEEL, YOUR ACHILLES, YOUR KNEE, YOUR HIP.

THINK ABOUT BALANCE, WHERE YOUR HEAD SITS ON YOUR NECK.

BE FULLY PRESENT AND AWARE OF WHERE YOU ARE.

>> AND IT HELPS YOU MAKE BETTER CHOICES THROUGHOUT YOUR DAY AND LIFE.

I HAVE TO SAY.

IT'S A GREAT BOOK.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT.

CONGRATULATIONS, MY FRIEND.

THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN'T DO.

>> AND CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU ON YOUR KILLER MARATHONS RECENTLY.

>> THANK YOU.

NOWHERE NEAR YOUR TIME, BUT THANK YOU.

NICK THOMPSON, REALLY APPRECIATE.

>>> HUGE NUMBERS VOTED FOR PRESIDENT IN THE LAST ELECTION, EVEN AS HE PROMISED TO EXTEND TAX BREAKS TO THE RICHEST IN THE COUNTRY.

OUR NEXT GUEST CLAIMS TRUMP WAS ABOUT TO EXPLOIT WORKING CLASS ANGER TO WIN THE PRESIDENTIAL DESPITE SOME OF HIS SIGNATURE POLICIES HAVING THE POTENTIAL TO MAKE THEIR LIVES MEASURABLY WORSE.

MICHAEL SANDELL JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT HE SAYS IS THE WIDENING INCOME AND EDUCATION GAP IN THE U.S.

THAT'S HELPED FUEL TRUMP'S POPULOUS RISE TO POWER.

>> PROFESSOR SANDELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> AND CONGRATULATIONS BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS WE ARE SPEAKING WITH YOU TODAY IS THAT YOU HAVE JUST BEEN AWARDED WHAT'S CONSIDERED A VERY PRESTIGIOUS PRIZE FOR PHILOSOPHY, THE VERGUAN PRIZE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF A BODY OF WORK.

NOT JUST A BODY OF WORK, BUT A BODY OF WORK THAT HAS GLOBAL IMPACT.

IT'S SORT OF TIMELY TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

WE ARE IN A MOMENT IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THE WORST IMPULSES OF BROUGHT TO THE FLOOR BUT AMPLIFIED.

WE TALK A LOT ABOUT POLITICAL POLARIZATION, BUT WE SEEM TO BE SEEING IS POLITICAL HATRED.

IT ISN'T JUST PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE ABOUT TAX POLICY, LIKE WHAT SHOULD THE CORPORATE TAX RATES BE?

IF WE DISAGREE WITH YOU, YOU ARE EVIL, YOU ARE STUPID, YOU ARE WRONG.

AND I JUST WONDER HOW DOES A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHER LIKE YOU THINK OF A MOMENT LIKE THIS?

>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT, MICHELLE.

OUR CIVIC LIFE ISN'T GOING VERY WELL.

WHAT PASSES FOR POLITICAL DISCOURSE CONSISTS OF SHOUTING MATCHES, OF IDEOLOGICAL FOOD FIGHTS WHERE PEOPLE ARGUE PAST ONE ANOTHER WITHOUT REALLY LISTENING.

AND SO PART OF WHAT I TRY TO DO AS A TEACHER OF POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY BUT ALSO WHEN I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TRAVEL AROUND THE WORLD AND TO SPEAK TO PUBLIC AUDIENCES, ESPECIALLY REALLY INVITE THEM TO ENGAGE IN A DISCUSSION NOT ONLY WITH ME BUT WITH ONE ANOTHER ON SOME OF THE MOST ETHICALLY FRAUGHT QUESTIONS.

THE MORAL AND CIVIC DILEMMAS OF OUR TIME.

AND WHAT I FIND IS THAT GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, GIVEN THE OCCASION TO STEP BACK, THERE'S A HUNGER AMONG PEOPLE GENERALLY, DEMOCRATIC CITIZENS, BUT ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE TO REASON TOGETHER, TO ARGUE TOGETHER, TO DEBATE TOGETHER IN PUBLIC ABOUT BIG QUESTIONS THAT MATTER.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT OUR POLITICAL PARTIES AREN'T REALLY ATTENDING TO THIS.

THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA FOR THE MOST PART DOES NOT PROVIDE THESE KINDS OF FORUMS FOR SERIOUS PUBLIC DEBATE.

AND SOCIAL MEDIA ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE.

SO WE NEED TO LEAN AGAINST THESE TENDENCIES, THE HOLLOWING OUT OF OUR PUBLIC DISCOURSE IF WE'RE TO ADDRESS THE QUESTIONS THAT REALLY MATTER FOR SELF- GOVERNMENT.

>> FORGIVE ME FOR ASKING A QUESTION IN THIS WAY, BUT YOU'VE SPENT MUCH OF YOUR CAREER, YOUR CAREER AT ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST ELITE INSTITUTIONS.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING HOW IT IS THAT YOU'RE SO CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AND THE PRIVILEGE TO SPEND TIME AT ONE OF THESE ELITE INSTITUTIONS HAVE THIS HUNGER.

AS YOU SEE IT.

>> YES.

THAT'S A FAIR QUESTION.

FAIR ENOUGH, MICHELLE.

AND HERE'S AN UN-SCIENTIFIC SAMPLING BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE.

WHEN PEOPLE HAVE READ MY BOOKS ABROAD AND WHEN I GET A CHANCE TO TRAVEL AROUND, WELL IN THIS COUNTRY BUT ALSO IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, I POSSIBLE TO FIND NOT ONLY UNIVERSITY AUDIENCES, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ATTEND PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES, BUT ALSO TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT HAVE GONE TO UNIVERSITY.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN BRAZIL WHERE I VISITED A NUMBER OF TIMES, I'VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO INTO FAVELLAS, THE URBAN AREAS IN THE HILLS OUTSIDE DEL RIO WHERE PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH VIOLENCE, AND YET THERE ARE CIVIC ASSOCIATIONS WHERE PEOPLE COME TOGETHER.

AND I'VE BEEN ABLE TO MEET WITH THEM, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE MEANING OF JUSTICE, COMMUNITY, CITIZENSHIP, VOICE, VIOLENCE, HOW TO CONFRONT IT, AND I FIND THAT WHETHER I'M SPEAKING TO STUDENTS AT HARVARD GENERAL PUBLIC, WITH OR WITHOUT COLLEGE EDUCATIONS, THERE IS THIS HUNGER.

I THINK PHILOSOPHY CAN SPEAK TO EVERYONE, AT LEAST THAT'S MY HOPE.

AND THAT'S MY AMBITION, MICHELLE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP BORN TO WEALTH, ACCUMULATED MUCH MORE OVER HIS TIME IN PUBLIC LIFE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CLAIM SO MUCH LOYALTY FROM PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES ARE SO DIFFERENT FROM HIS?

>> I AM CRITICAL OF WELL- EDUCATED, WELL-CREDENTIALED ELITES WHO WERE COMPLETELY BLINDSIDED BY THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.

AND WE SEE THIS AROUND THE WORLD.

INCREASINGLY, THE DIVIDE.

AND THIS REALLY GOES BACK FOUR OR FIVE DECADES, MICHELLE.

THE DIVIDE BETWEEN WINNERS AND LOSERS HAS BEEN DEEPENING.

POISONING OUR POLITICS, SETTING US APART.

THIS HAS PARTLY TO DO WITH THE WIDENING INEQUALITIES OF INCOME AND WEALTH BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE AGE OF GLOBALIZATION.

IT'S NOT ONLY THAT.

IT HAS ALSO TO DO WITH THE ATTITUDES TOWARD SUCCESS THAT HAVE ACCOMPANIED THE WIDENING INEQUALITIES.

THOSE WHO LANDED ON TOP HAVE COME TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR SUCCESS IS THEIR OWN DOING.

THE MEASURE OF THEIR MERIT AND THAT THEY, THEREFORE, DESERVE THE FULL BOUNTY THAT THE MARKET BESTOWS UPON THEM.

AND THIS HAS LED TO, UH, A SET OF ANGER.

IT'S LED TO ANGER, RESENTMENTS, AND A SET OF GRIEVANCES, ESPECIALLY AMONG WORKING PEOPLE WITHOUT COLLEGE DEGREES.

THE DIPLOMA DIVIDE IS ONE OF THE DEEPEST DIVIDES NOW IN POLITICS.

A GREAT MANY WORKING PEOPLE FEEL THAT CREDENTIALED ELITES LOOK DOWN ON THEM.

AND HERE'S WHERE DONALD TRUMP COMES IN.

HE'S BEEN ABLE TO EXPLOIT THE GRIEVANCES OF WORKING PEOPLE WHO FEEL ELITES LOOK DOWN.

AND HE GOES AFTER THOSE ELITES.

IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT IN ONE OF HIS, AFTER ONE OF HIS PRIMARY VICTORIES BACK IN 2016, HE PROCLAIMED I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED.

>> WE WON WITH POORLY EDUCATED.

I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED.

>> IT WAS A CRUDE PERHAPS WAY OF ADDRESSING WHAT HE SENSED, WAS THIS WELLSPRING OF ANGER THAT HE'S MANAGED TO TAP INTO.

AND SO I THINK THAT TO RESPOND EFFECTIVELY TO DONALD TRUMP, IT'S NOT ENOUGH SIMPLY TO SAY HE THREATENS DEMOCRACY AND CONSTITUTIONAL NORMS.

IT'S ALSO NECESSARY FOR PROGRESSIVES, FOR DEMOCRATS, FOR LIBERALS TO RECONSIDER THEIR OWN POLITICAL PROJECT AND TO ASK IF DONALD TRUMP REPRESENTS A THREAT AND IF HE'S AS DISAGREEABLE AS WE SAY HE IS, HOW COME PEOPLE WENT FOR HIM INSTEAD OF WHAT WE HAVE TO OFFER?

I THINK THAT PROGRESSIVES NEED TO OFFER A REIMAGINED POLITICAL PROJECT.

>> WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

I TELL YOU, BECAUSE THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT, UM, I WOULD SAY THE CONTINUUM OF REACTION AMONG PROGRESSIVES IS UNEASE TO RAGE.

BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, THEY LOOK AT THEIR POLICY ACCOMPLISHMENTS, THEY LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE THE AFFORDABLE CARE ABILITY, AND THEY SAY 49 MILLION PEOPLE UNINSURED BEFORE.

IT'S DOWN TO SINGLE DIGITS.

NOT BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP AND HIS POLICIES BUT BECAUSE OF DEMOCRATS PUSHING FOR THIS LAW, PUSHING FOR SUBSIDIES TO HELP PEOPLE AFFORD THE LAW, AND YET PEOPLE DON'T SEEM, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY GRATEFUL, BUT THEY DON'T SEEM, IT'S NOT SORT PERSUASIVE ON THE OTHER HAND.

AND YET DEMOCRATS ARE SORT OF PUZZLED BY THEIR IDEA OF STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS, EVOKE THIS KIND OF RAGE, AND THEY LOOK AT THAT AND THINK WHY?

WHAT'S SO TERRIBLE ABOUT THAT?

I'M CURIOUS, HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> RIGHT.

AND YOU'RE CERTAINLY RIGHT, MICHELLE.

NOT ONLY IS THE DEMOCRATS WHO PRODUCED THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, BUT DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO GET RID OF THOSE SUBSIDIES.

>> AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.

AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS, SINCE HIS FIRST TERM.

>> ON WHICH HIS VOTERS, HIS SUPPORTERS DEPEND, MANY OF THEM FOR THEIR HEALTH CARE.

WHAT THAT SUGGESTS IS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON HERE.

AND IT GOES BACK TO THIS IDEA OF ELITES LOOKING DOWN.

DEMOCRATS, ALONG WITH REPUBLICANS SINCE THE 1980s AFFIRMED AND PROMOTED A VERSION OF MARKET-DRIVEN GLOBALIZATION THAT DID PRODUCE SUBSTANTIAL ECONOMIC GROWTH OVER THE PAST FIVE DECADES.

BUT MOST OF THAT, MOST OF THE GAINS WENT TO THE TOP 20%.

AND ALMOST NONE WENT TO THE BOTTOM HALF.

THE MEDIAN, THE WAGE IN REAL TERMS FOR THE MEDIAN WORKER IN THE UNITED STATES WAS NEARLY FLAT, NEARLY STAGNANT FOR FIVE DECADES.

AND THIS WAS DURING A PERIOD WHEN DEMOCRATS, AS WELL AS REPUBLICANS PROMOTED FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS, THE DEREGULATION OF THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY, WHEN THE FINANCIAL CRASH CAME, THE WALL STREET BAILOUT, AND VALORIZED GETTING A COLLEGE DEGREE.

THE RESPONSE TO EQUALITY WAS IF YOU WANT TO COMPETE AND WIN IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, GO TO COLLEGE.

WHAT YOU EARN WILL DEPEND ON WHAT YOU LEARN.

YOU CAN MAKE IT IF YOU TRY.

BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT INDIVIDUAL UPWARD MOBILITY THROUGH HIGHER EDUCATION IS NOT AN ADEQUATE RESPONSE TO INEQUALITY.

IN FACT, IT ADDS THAT MANTRA, I CALL IT THE RHETORIC OF RISING.

IT ADDS INSULT TO THE INJURY OF ECONOMIC INEQUALITY BECAUSE IT SAYS TO PEOPLE IF YOU'RE STRUGGLING IN THE NEW ECONOMY AND IF YOU DIDN'T GET A DEGREE, YOUR FAILURE MUST BE YOUR FAULT.

THOSE OF US WHO SPEND OUR DAYS IN THE COMPANY OF THE CREDENTIALED CAN EASILY FORGET THAT MOST OF OUR FELLOW CITIZENS DO NOT HAVE A FOUR- YEAR COLLEGE DEGREE.

ABOUT 60% DO NOT.

SO IT WAS FOLLY FOR DEMOCRATS AND MAINSTREAM REPUBLICANS TO CREATE AN ECONOMY ON A FOUR- YEAR DEGREE THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE.

SO WITH THAT SUGGESTION, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON THE DIGNITY OF WORK, ASKING HOW TO MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR EVERY WHO CONTRIBUTES TO THE COMMON GOOD, WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT, IN YOUR VIEW, THE CENTER LEFT OR PROGRESSIVES ARE, AS YOU PUT IT EARLIER, I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD SAY THIS, BUT ALLERGIC TO INFUSING THESE SORT OF POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS WITH A MORAL SENSIBILITY?

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> WELL, IT'S NOT MERELY POLITICS, IT'S PRINCIPLE.

I THINK IT'S A MISPLACED PRINCIPLE, BUT IT'S THE IDEA, IT'S A CERTAIN VERSION OF LIBERAL POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY THAT SAYS SINCE WE ALL DISAGREE IN PLURALIST SOCIETIES ABOUT THE MEANING OF VIRTUE AND THE GOOD LIFE, THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF JUSTICE AND RIGHTS BY WHICH WE LIVE TOGETHER SHOULD TRY TO BE NEUTRAL TOWARD THOSE CONTESTED MORAL AND SOMETIMES RELIGIOUS CONTROVERSIES.

THIS IS THE WAY TO CONTEND WITH MORAL DISAGREEMENT ACCORDING TO A CERTAIN, UH, CERTAIN VERSION OF LIBERAL POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY.

IT'S NOT JUST POLITICS.

IT'S THE PRINCIPLED CONVICTION THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO RESPECT DISAGREEMENT, MORAL DISAGREEMENT BY AVOIDING IT FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES.

>> INTERESTING.

>> TO AVOID COERCING PEOPLE, TO AVOID IMPOSING VALUES ON THOSE WHO MAY DISAGREE.

BUT VALUE-NEUTRAL POLITICS IS NOT INSPIRING TO ANYONE.

PEOPLE WANT PUBLIC LIFE TO ADDRESS LARGER QUESTIONS OF VALUES AND MEANING.

AND SO I THINK THAT THEIR HESITANCY, EVEN THEIR ALLERGY SOMETIMES, AND THIS IS NOT TRUE OF ALL PROGRESSIVES, BUT IT'S A STRAIN WITHIN LIBERALISM, AND EMBRACE RATHER THAN AVOID MORAL ARGUMENT IN POLITICS.

>> IS THERE ANYBODY ON THE LEFT WHO YOU THINK IS DOING THIS OR THE CENTER LEFT WHO'S DOING THIS WELL?

>> WELL, IF WE CAN LOOK BACK TO RECENT HISTORY, I THINK WE CAN FIND EXAMPLES.

MARTIN LUTHER KING DREW EXPLICITLY ON MORAL AND SOMETIMES RELIGIOUS ARGUMENTS IN HIS POLITICS, IN MAKING A CASE AGAINST SEGREGATION, JIM CROW.

HE DREW ON A MORALLY RESONANT, SPIRITUALLY RICH POLITICAL VOCABULARY, AND THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF HIS POWER AND APPEAL.

ROBERT F KENNEDY IN 1968, I DON'T MEAN THE JUNIOR.

I MEAN THE SENIOR RFK, HE WAS ON TO THIS WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE WAR IN VIETNAM AND POVERTY IN AMERICA.

HE WAS DRAWING ON MORALLY AND SPIRITUALLY GROUNDED POLITICAL RHETORIC, POLITICAL DISCOURSE.

AND IT WAS VERY COMPELLING.

AND SO THESE ARE TWO EXAMPLES.

>> WELL, THAT'S KIND OF DEPRESSING, THOUGH.

THOSE ARE BOTH GENTLEMEN WHO LIVED SOME DECADES AGO, AND THOSE ARE BOTH GENTLEMEN WHO MET AN UNTIMELY END BY BEING ASSASSINATED, IN PART BECAUSE OF THEIR, I MEAN, IN PART BECAUSE OF THEIR EFFORTS TO ADVANCE THESE BELIEFS.

>> WELL, WE DID HAVE ANOTHER GLIMPSE, AND I SHOULD MENTION THIS.

ANOTHER GLIMPSE OF POSSIBILITY AND SPIRITUALLY INFUSED PROGRESSIVE POLITICS, AND THAT WAS BARACK OBAMA DURING THE 2008 CAMPAIGN WHEN HE STIRRED A CIVIC IDEALISM THAT INSPIRED NOT ONLY AMERICANS BUT PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

AND HE PROMISED, I MEAN BY HIS EXAMPLE AND HIS RHETORIC AND HIS ELOQUENCE DURING THE CAMPAIGN, HE GESTURED TOWARD A MORALLY MORE ENGAGED KIND OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE.

THEN THE TECHNOCRATIC KIND OF MARKET-DRIVEN DISCOURSE THAT DEMOCRATS ESPECIALLY HAD EMBRACED FROM THE '80s UP UNTIL THAT POINT, THAT WAS PART OF HIS PROMISE AS A CANDIDATE.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HE TOOK OFFICE RIGHT IN THE MIDST OF THE FINANCIAL CRISIS.

AND APPOINTED ECONOMISTS WHO HAD BEEN PART OF THE NEOLIBERAL ORTHODOXY THAT HAD SHARED IN THE DEREGULATION AND THEN CAME THE WALL STREET BAILOUT, AND I THINK THIS DAMPENED AND DIVERTED HIM FROM THE CIVIC IDEALISM THAT HIS CAMPAIGN, THAT AMAZING CAMPAIGN SEEMED TO GESTURE TOWARD.

AND DEMOCRATS SLID BACK INTO MORE TECHNOCRATIC HABITS AND MODES OF POLITICAL ARGUMENT.

THERE WAS A GLIMMER THERE.

WHO KNOWS?

PERHAPS AS PEOPLE STRUGGLE WITH THE QUESTION OF HOW TO CONFRONT DONALD TRUMP AND MAGA, PERHAPS WE WILL HEAR AND FIND NEW VOICES AMONG PROGRESSIVES FOR THE POLITICS OF THE COMMON GOOD THAT TAKES COMMUNITY SERIOUSLY, THAT OFFERS A VERSION OF PATRIOTISM THAT CAN INSPIRE THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO ASSOCIATE PATRIOTISM MERELY WITH HOSTILITY TO IMMIGRANTS, BUT ALSO A MORE AFFIRMATIVE PROJECT OF MORAL AND CIVIC RENEWAL.

>> PROFESSOR SANDELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US, AND CONGRATULATIONS ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.