♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP -- >>> ISRAEL SAYS ITS TROOPS ARE AT THE HEART OF GAZA CITY, WHILE CALLS FOR A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE GROW LOUDER.

DAVID MILIBAND, HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, AND FORMER BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY, TELLS ME ABOUT TRYING TO HELP CIVILIANS UNDER SIEGE.

>>> THEN, HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DOES PRESIDENT BIDEN REALLY HAVE, EVEN OVER THE CLOSEST ALLIES?

I ASK FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL DANIEL KURTZER.

>>> PLUS, DECISIVE WINS FOR DEMOCRATS, DESPITE THOSE BIDEN POLLS.

"NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER ASTEAD HERNDON SPEAKS ABOUT LAST NIGHT'S ELECTION RESULTS.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS -- AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS ISRAEL SAYS ITS TROOPS HAVE ENTERED GAZA CITY, THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IS STARK.

BAKERIES IN NORTH GAZA ARE CLOSED, ACCORDING TO THE U.N.

HOSPITALS ARE NEARLY OUT OF FUEL, SAYS THE PALESTINE RED CRESCENT.

SO, GAZA IS AT A BREAKING POINT.

THE U.N.

INSISTS MORE AID BE DELIVERED INTO THE BESIEGED ENCLAVE, INCLUDING FUEL, WHICH IS CURRENTLY BANNED BY ISRAEL.

THE SECRETARY-GENERAL TODAY CALLED FOR AN UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE OF ALL THE HOSTAGES HELD BY HAMAS, BUT ALSO PLEADED FOR PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS TO BE SEEN AS SEPARATE FROM HAMAS.

>> THIS SHOULD NOT REDUCE OUR TOTAL REJECTION FOR THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HAMAS DID ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

HAMAS IS ONE THING.

THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IS ANOTHER.

IF WE DON'T MAKE THAT DISTINCTION, I THINK IT'S HUMANITY ITSELF THAT LOSES MEANING.

>> AND HE QUESTIONED ISRAEL'S MILITARY OPERATION.

MEANWHILE, IN TOKYO, G7 FOREIGN MINISTERS ARE PUSHING FOR HUMANITARIAN PAUSES, THOUGH THE UNITED STATES SAYS NO CEASE-FIRE.

WHILE THE IDF GAVE REMAINING GAZA CITY RESIDENTS FIVE HOURS TO EVACUATE SOUTH TODAY.

BUT AS SALMA ABDELAZIZ REPORTS, THE DESTRUCTION BY ISRAELI BOMBING MEANS TRAVEL IS SLOW AND DANGEROUS.

>> Reporter: TAKING ONLY WHAT THEY CAN CARRY, FAMILIES ARE FLEEING GAZA CITY.

THEY WAVE WHITE FLAGS MADE OF ANYTHING THEY CAN FIND.

AND AS THE SOUNDS OF WAR ECHO AROUND THEM, THEY SIGNAL YET AGAIN THAT THEY ARE INNOCENTS.

"NOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE SAFE AREA, BUT YOU CAN HEAR THE BOMBS BEHIND US," HE SAYS.

"ALL OF OUR HOUSES ARE GONE.

NOTHING IS LEFT."

"THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS BEEN CALLING FOR WEEKS ON ALL THOSE LIVING IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE STRIP TO MOVE SOUTHWARDS.

MOST RECENTLY, OPENING WHAT IT CALLED SAFE CORRIDORS FOR LIMITED WINDOWS OF TIME.

PUSHING THOUSANDS HERE, WHERE EVACUEES DESCRIBE A HARROWING JOURNEY.

"WE SAW ALONG THE ROAD DESTRUCTION, DEAD BODIES EVERYWHERE.

AND THE ISRAELI TANKS WOULD DEMAND TO SEARCH THE YOUTH," HE SAYS.

"WE SAW ONE YOUNG MAN STRIPPED NAKED.

WE WITNESSED UNBEARABLE SCENES."

THE ONLY WAY TO REACH THE ROUTE IS BY FOOT OR BY CART FOR THOSE WHO CAN FIND ROOM.

"THERE WAS HEAVY SHELLING ON OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND WE WERE FORCED TO FLEE.

WE HAVE TO USE THESE DONKEY CARTS, BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUEL," HE SAYS.

"THEY CUT EVERYTHING OFF TO FORCE US OUT OF OUR HOMES."

ISRAELI TROOPS ARE NOW IN THE HEART OF GAZA CITY.

AS ISRAEL'S DEFENSE MINISTER APPARENTLY DECLARED THE ENTIRE CITY THE WHOLE OF THE ENCLAVE'S LARGEST POPULATION CENTER A LEGITIMATE TARGET.

>> Translator: GAZA IS THE BIGGEST TERROR STRONGHOLD THAT MANKIND HAS EVER BUILT.

THIS WHOLE CITY IS ONE BIG TERROR BASE.

UNDERGROUND, THEY HAVE KILOMETERS OF TUNNELS CONNECTING TO HOSPITALS AND SCHOOLS.

>> Reporter: THE U.N. CALLS THIS EXODUS FORCIBLE DISPLACEMENT AND ACCUSING ISRAEL OF THE COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT OF SOME 2 MILLION PEOPLE.

AND THESE ROUTES CAN BE DANGEROUS AND DEADLY.

THIS WAS THE STREET JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO.

CNN GEO-LOCATED THESE VIDEOS SHOWING THE AFTERMATH OF EXPLOSIONS THAT KILLED EVACUEES.

YOU CAN SEE LUGGAGE AMONG THE BODIES.

AND MANY FEAR THEY WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO RETURN HOME.

SOME HERE SAY THIS IS REMINISCENT OF THE EXPULSION OF PALESTINIANS FROM THEIR TOWNS DURING THE FOUNDING OF ISRAEL.

"WE WALKED A VERY LONG WAY, IT FELT LIKE THAT AGAIN," SHE SAYS.

"WE WALKED BY DEAD PEOPLE WHO WERE RIPPED TO SHREDS, CHILDREN WERE VERY TIRED BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WATER, PEOPLE WERE DYING, AND THERE WERE ELDERLY WHO COULDN'T WALK."

AND FOR THOSE WHO DO MAKE IT, BOMBARDMENT AND SIEGE AWAIT THEM IN THE SOUTH, TOO.

THERE IS NO TRUE ESCAPE.

>> SALMA ABDELAZIZ REPORTING THERE.

AND THE IMAGES LOOK HORRIFIC.

SINCE ISRAEL STARTED BOMBING GAZA AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th HAMAS MASSACRES THAT LEFT 1,400 PEOPLE DEAD, MORE THAN 10,500 GAZANS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

THE U.N. SAYS 92 OF ITS STAFF MEMBERS HAVE BEEN KILLED AND THE RED CROSS REPORTS ITS CONVOYS HAVE COME UNDER FIRE.

THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE SAYS A FIVE-HOUR EVACUATION OR HUMANITARIAN PAUSE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH.

DAVID MILIBAND, THE FORMER UK FOREIGN SECRETARY, IS CEO OF THE IRC AND IS JOINING ME NOW.

DAVID MILIBAND, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN SEE THAT REPORT THAT SALMA ABDELAZIZ PUT TOGETHER, BUT THE SCENES, AND WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, ARE TRULY HORRIFYING.

CAN I FIRST ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON WHETHER A FOUR OR FIVE-HOUR EVACUATION CORRIDOR, SO TO SPEAK, YOU KNOW, PAUSE, IS -- IS ENOUGH?

>> WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON, CHRISTIANE.

I'VE COME ON WITH A SINGULAR PURPOSE TODAY, AND THAT IS TO SAY THAT IT IS DESPERATELY BEYOND TIME FOR THE WORLD COMMUNITY TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT WHAT A HUMANITARIAN HALT IN THE FIGHTING, WHAT A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE, WHAT THE AMERICANS CALL A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE, COULD MEAN IN PRACTICE.

OUR VIEW, BASED ON OUR TEAM ON THE GROUND IN EGYPT, WHO ARE TRYING TO GET AID IN, BUT ALSO OUR EXPERIENCE AROUND THE WORLD, IS THAT A HUMANITARIAN HALT, A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE NEEDS TO BE ORGANIZED, IT NEEDS TO BE COORDINATED, IT NEEDS TO BE LED, IT NEEDS TO BE MONITORED, IT NEEDS TO HAVE SUFFICIENT DURATION, IF IT'S REALLY TO RELIEVE THE SUFFERING AND SAVE LIVES.

WHAT I WOULD SAY TO YOU THAT IT IS BEYOND URGENT TO GET THIS HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE SO THAT OUR TEAMS CAN DO THE WORK AND THE PARTNERS THAT WE HAVE ON THE GROUND INSIDE GAZA CAN DO THEIR WORK.

BECAUSE MANY, MANY ARE DEAD ALREADY, BUT MANY, MANY MORE ARE GOING TO LOSE THEIR LIVES SOON.

AND SO, THIS IS A MATTER OF THE UTMOST URGENCY, AND I APPEAL TO YOUR VIEWERS THROUGH THIS PROGRAM THAT WE GET INTO THE DETAILS ABOUT WHAT A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE COULD DO OVER A PERIOD OF AT LEAST FIVE DAYS, WHICH IS THE ESTIMATE THAT WE BASE OUR EXPERTISE ON, THAT OUR EXPERTISE HAS LED US TO BELIEVE IS NECESSARY, IF WE'RE TO FULFILL THE PROMISE OF SAVING CIVILIAN LIVES.

>> SO, YOU SAY FIVE DAYS, THEY'VE GIVEN FIVE HOURS.

AND ONLY PERIODIC.

THIS IS WHAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S CHIEF ADVISER TOLD ME LAST NIGHT ON THIS PROGRAM.

>> WE'VE ALSO HAD PAUSES TO FACILITATE THE DEPARTURE OF GAZANS FOR THE NORTHERN GAZA STRIP TO THE SOUTHERN GAZA STRIP.

THERE ARE ALSO PAUSES TO ALLOW IN HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE'VE DONE IN THE PAST.

WE'RE HAVING TO SEE THEM IN THE FUTURE.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE HUMANITARIAN EFFORT TO THE PEOPLE OF GAZA CAN CONTINUE, AND, OF COURSE, THERE WILL BE PAUSES TO FACILITATE THAT.

WE'VE DONE ALL THAT.

WE'RE WILLING TO DO THAT IN THE FUTURE.

BUT TO CEASE A WAR AGAINST HAMAS WOULD BE A MISTAKE.

>> SO, THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A CONFLICTING IMPERATIVE HERE, AND CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL APPEAR TO BE IN CONFLICT, AS WELL, ABOUT WHATEVER IT MEANS.

SO, IN YOUR VIEW, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CEASE-FIRE, WHICH THEY SAY, FORGET ABOUT IT, WE'RE NOT DOING THAT, AND A FIVE-DAY HUMANITARIAN PAUSE OR CEASE-FIRE?

>> SO, THE WORDS MATTER MUCH LESS TO US AS A HUMANITARIAN AGENCY THAN THE SUBSTANCE OF THE ACTION THAT TAKES PLACE.

LET ME GO THROUGH WHAT'S NECESSARY.

WHAT'S ESSENTIAL TO SAVE LIVES TODAY.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A FLOW OF AID.

AT THE MOMENT, IT'S A TRICKLE OF AID.

FOUR TRUCKS AN HOUR BEING PROCESSED AT VARIOUS GATES, THE RAFAH GATE.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A MASSIVE SCALEUP OF THE AID FLOWS.

THAT'S MEDICINES, THAT'S NONFOOD ITEMS.

THAT IS FOOD, THAT IS WATER.

THE BASICS OF LIFE.

AND THE FUEL TO GET THOSE GOODS AROUND THE GAZA STRIP.

SECOND, YOU CAN'T DELIVER AID WITHOUT AID WORKERS.

YOU QUOTED THE U.N.

FIGURE, OVER 90 U.N. AID WORKERS KILLED.

IT'S NOT SAFE AT THE MOMENT.

ONLY 4 OUT OF 70 PARTNERS ON THE GROUND ARE ACTUALLY WORKING WITH FULL SERVICES AT THE MOMENT.

SO, WE NEED TO GET AID WORKERS IN.

THIRDLY, ESSENTIAL, WE'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SAFETY FOR CIVILIANS WHO COME TO RECEIVE AID, WHEN THEY BRING THEIR KIDS, WHEN THEY BRING THEIR WOUNDED, THEY'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO BE SAFE IN A HEALTH CENTER.

OVER 100 HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN HIT.

IT'S ALSO FOURTHLY VITAL THAT THOSE THAT NEED TREATMENT THAT CAN ONLY BE DELIVERED OUTSIDE THE GAZA STRIP ARE ABLE TO GET OUT AND YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR RECORD THAT THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO LEAVE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK.

THERE'S ONE OTHER THING THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

THAT'S THAT THE HOSTAGE ISSUE, WHICH IS ALSO A HUMANITARIAN ISSUE, IS PROPERLY ADDRESSED.

SO, WE DON'T PICK NUMBERS OR NAMES OUT OF THIN AIR.

OUR PLEA IS BASED ON THE EVIDENCE OF WHAT WE KNOW IS NECESSARY.

AND THIS IS A MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE, AND IT REQUIRES A MASSIVE OPERATION IF IT IS TO BE DONE.

IF THE FIGHTING STOPS, OR IS STOPPED, THEN A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE, EVEN FOR A LIMITED PERIOD, WE SAY FIVE DAYS IS THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, IT WILL ALLOW US TO SAVE LIVES, ALOUSE PARTNERS ON THE GROUND TO SAVE LIVES, AND THAT'S ABSOLUTELY THE HUMANITARIAN IMPERATIVE IN ACTION.

>> SO, YOU'RE TELLING US THIS.

HAVE YOU TOLD THIS OR ARE YOU IN ANY NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

OR WHO?

EGYPT, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE RAFAH CROSSING.

>> WE'VE -- WE'VE BEEN VERY OPEN ABOUT THIS.

WE'RE NOT NEGOTIATING.

WE'RE NOT A PARTY TO NEGOTIATIONS, I CAN SAY THAT VERY CLEARLY, BUT WE'VE USED OUR HUMANITARIAN EXPERTISE, THE FACT THAT OUR AIM, OUR SOLE AIM IS THE HUMANITARIAN MISSION OF SAVING CIVILIAN LIVES.

WE'VE USED THAT TO INFORM THE PUBLIC DEBATE.

NOW, THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL IS HAVING NEGOTIATIONS, THEY ARE TALKING.

THE G7 FOREIGN MINISTERS, YOU MENTIONED.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAVE GOT THEIR OWN WORDS AND PROPOSALS OUT THERE.

WE ARE SAYING THAT OUR TEAMS ON THE GROUND ARE SAYING THAT THERE IS THE -- WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF SOMETHING MUCH, MUCH WORSE, BECAUSE THE THREAT OF COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, THE THREAT OF CHOLERA, THE THREAT OF MEASLES AND TYPHOID, THERE IS THERE.

WHEN THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE U.N. SAYS RAW SEWAGE WILL BE FLOWING IN THE STREETS, THAT'S WHAT COMES IN ITS WAKE.

AND WE'RE SAYING THE IMPERATIVE OF RELIEVING THE SUFFERING IN GAZA NOW IS ABSOLUTELY CORE TO THE HUMANITARIAN MISSION.

THAT'S WHY I'M SPEAKING TO YOU.

IT'S ABOUT OUR JOB.

IT'S ABOUT OUR PURPOSE AS A HUMANITARIAN AGENCY THAT SAYS THAT EVERY SINGLE CIVILIAN LIFE IS OF EQUAL VALUE.

>> SO, IT IS YOUR PURPOSE, IT IS AT THE CORE.

CAN YOU GIVE US, OR VIEWERS, ANY KIND OF MODERN DAY EXAMPLE OF HOW IN THE MIDST OF A RAGING WAR, DON'T WANT A CEASE-FIRE.

WE'VE SEEN THE RUSSIANS IN UKRAINE, WE'VE SEEN IT IN MANY, MANY PLACES.

THEY SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, IT IS WHAT IT IS.

WE'VE GOT TO, IN THIS CASE, ANNIHILATE HAMAS.

AND THESE ARE OUR PAUSES, AS NETANYAHU, THE PRIME MINISTER SAID TO ABC, LITTLE PAUSES.

>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT WE, THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY, WE ARE ON THE BACK FOOT AROUND THE WORLD.

I MEAN, THERE'S 110 MILLION REFUGEES OF DISPLACED PEOPLE.

360 MILLION PEOPLE IN HUMANITARIAN NEED.

WE ARE ON THE BACK FOOT, ABSOLUTELY.

AND CIVILIAN -- CIVILIANS AND CIVILIAN PROTECTION IS NOT BEING RESPECTED AND NOT BEING DELIVERED.

AND THAT'S WHY THE APPEAL THAT WE'RE MAKING IS FOUNDED ON OUR KNOWLEDGE.

WE'RE NOT TAKING A POLITICAL POSITION, WE'RE SPEAKING TO WHAT WE KNOW OF THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND.

AND WE'RE DESPERATELY TRYING TO INFORM PUBLIC DEBATE AS EXPERT WITNESSES FOR WHAT CAN HAPPEN.

NOW, WE KNOW THAT WE CAN GET MOBILIZED QUICKLY.

BUT I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY FALSE PROMISES TO YOU, BECAUSE THAT ABSOLUTELY SATISFIES NO ONE.

>> I KNOW YOU'RE NOT MAKING ANY POLITICAL SUGGESTIONS OR COMMENTS, BUT YOU KNOW THIS WORD CEASE-FIRE HAS BECOME A POLITICAL FOOTBALL ALL OVER THE WORLD, INCLUDING IN THE G7, INCLUDING IN YOUR COUNTRY, BRITAIN, INCLUDING IN YOUR OWN PARTY, THE LABOR PARTY.

HUGE DILEMMA OVER SHOULD LEADERS ACTUALLY USE THIS WORD, CALL FOR THIS WORD.

IT'S BECOME A POLITICAL HOT POTATO WHILE PEOPLE ARE, IN FACT, DYING, AND AS ONE, YOU KNOW, AS THE U.N. UNRA CHIEF TOLD ME LAST TIME HE WAS IN, LITTLE CHILDREN CAME UP TO HIM ASKING JUST FOR A SIP OF WATER AND A SLICE OF BREAD.

YET THIS WORD, AND THE IDEA OF IT, SEEMS TO BE DOMINATING.

>> WELL, NO, CHRISTIANE, THIS IS ABOUT PEOPLE, NOT ABOUT WORDS.

AND ANY OF YOUR VIEWERS CAN GO TO THE IRC WEBSITE, THEY CAN SEE A PRESS RELEASE ON SUNDAY, WHAT A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE MEANS AND WHY IT IS NECESSARY.

WE'RE NOT ENTERING THE POLITICAL DEBATE.

WE'RE SAYING THAT THE WORD PAUSE OR CEASE-FIRE CAN DELIVER AS LONG AS IT'S DEFINED IN A VERY CLEAR WAY.

WE'RE SEEING, HUMAN CEASE-FIRE HAS TO BE AT LEAST FIVE DAYS, IT HAS TO COVER THE WHOLE OF GAZA, IT HAS TO BE PROPERLY MONITORED.

IT HAS TO BE THE FLOW OF AID WORKERS, BUT ALSO THE FLOW OF AID ITSELF, WATER, FOOD, NONFOOD ITEMS.

WE'RE DEFINING VERY CAREFULLY.

AND WE SHOULDN'T BE ARGUING ABOUT THE WORD.

WE SHOULD BE ARGUING ABOUT THE SUBSTANTIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DELIVER FOR THOSE CIVILIANS WHO ARE ON THE RECEIVING END OF THE MOMENT.

>> AND IN THE MEANTIME, DOCTORS, AS YOU KNOW, IN GAZA -- >> LET ME JUST SAY ONE OTHER THING.

>> UH-HUH.

>> THIS CRISIS HAS PLUMED NEW DEPTH.

NEW DEPTH ON OCTOBER THE 7th, WITH A REREHENSIBLE AND RIFFIC ATTACK BY HAMAS IN ISRAEL.

THE SITUATION IN GAZA DETERIORATING FAST.

AND AS HUMANITARIANS, WE ARE HONOR-BOUND TO SAY, THERE MUST BE A WAY, IN FACT, THERE IS A WAY TO AT LEAST STAUNCH THE DYING.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO TODAY.

>> AND MAYBE EVEN GET THEM FOOD, WATER, FUEL, AND ELECTRICITY, BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDER A VERY DRACONIAN SIEGE, AS WE DISCOVERED FROM THESE INTERVIEWS THAT WE'VE BEEN COLLECTING FROM INSIDE GAZA.

TAKE A LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE, THEY HAD BEEN SHELTERING, I BELIEVE, AT ONE OF THE HOSPITALS THERE.

>> Translator: LOOK AT OUR SITUATION.

IS THIS A LIFE THAT WE ARE LIVING?

WE HAVE NO FOOD, NO ELECTRICITY OR WATER.

WE SLEEP IN THE CORRIDORS WITHOUT ANY BLANKETS.

>> IT IS VERY COLD.

THIS IS NOT A LIFE.

>> Translator: THEY DISPLACED US FROM OUR HOMES.

THEY KILLED US.

OUR CHILDREN.

NO ONE IS LEFT.

WE LOST THE PEOPLE WE LOVE THE MOST.

IT'S A GENOCIDE.

I SWEAR IT'S A GENOCIDE.

>> 60% OF GAZA'S HOSPITALS ARE OUT OF SERVICE, ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

WHAT ABOUT A SIEGE?

WHAT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELIS SAY, WE'RE NOT SENDING FUEL, BECAUSE FUEL IS A DUEL-USE SUBSTANCE, AND YET, THE HOSPITALS CAN'T OPERATE WITHOUT IT.

>> WELL, I COULDN'T SEE THE PICTURES, BUT I CAN HEAR IN THE VOICES, THE ABSOLUTELY GUT-WRENCHING SITUATION THAT IS FACING CIVILIANS.

I THINK IT WAS A CHILD WHO WAS SPEAKING TO YOU.

>> YEAH.

>> AS I SAY, I COULDN'T SEE THE PICTURE.

LOOK.

THE FLOW OF FUEL TO DELIVER AID.

THE FLOW OF WATER, THAT NEEDS TO BE ONGOING.

THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN REQUIREMENT.

AND WHAT WE'RE ARGUING IS THAT THE HUMANITARIAN HALT IN THE FIGHTING, THE HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE, THE HUMANITARIAN PAUSE, IT NEEDS TO BE LONG ENOUGH TO ALLOW US TO ADDRESS THE IMMEDIATE NEEDS THAT EXIST.

TO GET THE WOUNDED OUT.

TO ADDRESS THE HOSTAGE ISSUE, WHICH IS, I'M SURE, IMMENSELY COMPLEX.

YOU'VE GOT THE AMBASSADOR LATER, HE'S A REAL EXPERT ON MUCH OF THIS.

WE'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THIS HUMANITARIAN NEED THAT'S BEEN EXPRESSED IN THOSE EXTRAORDINARY WORLDS THAT YOUR CHILD INTERVIEWEE USED.

>> AND A MOTHER THERE, AS WELL.

AFGHANISTAN IS SUDDENLY, AGAIN, IN THE NEWS FOR AWFUL, AWFUL REASONS.

YOU'RE DEALING WITH THIS OTHER URGENT ISSUE.

PAKISTAN HAS ORDERED ALL AFGHAN REFUGEES AND MIGRANTS WITHOUT OFFICIAL I.D.s TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, A LOOMING HUMANITARIAN DISASTER, NOT TO MENTION ABJECT CRUELTY.

THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING UPROOTED AGAIN, THEY ARE ALREADY REFUGEES, THEY ARE BEING SENT BACK.

ABOUT 129,000 PEOPLE HAVE FLED FROM ONE OF THE PROVINCES, YOU KNOW, ALONG THE BORDER.

AS OF LAST THURSDAY.

>> WELL, KLUS TEE YAN, THE -- I SAID EARLIER, WE'RE ON THE BACK FOOT, AND HERE'S A PRIME EXAMPLE.

WE'VE GOT A PROGRAM IN PAKISTAN, WHICH IS DOING EXCELLENT WORK.

WE'VE GOT VERY LARGE TEAM, 5,000 PEOPLE, AND 2,000 WOMEN, WORKING IN AFGHANISTAN, AND WE'VE GOT A MOBILE HEALTH TEAM AT THE BORDER THAT IS MEETING SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME ACROSS.

IN FACT, THE FIGURE I HAVE IS THAT 200,000 PEOPLE HAVE ARRIVED, AFGHANS HAVE ARRIVED FROM PAKISTAN TO THE PROVINCE ALONE IN AFGHANISTAN.

NOW, PAKISTAN HAS BEEN IMMENSELY GENEROUS, IT IS ONE OF THE MOST -- THE HIGHEST REFUGEE HOSTING COUNTRY POPULATIONS IN THE WORLD, OVER 3 MILLION AFGHANS HAVE BEEN IN PAKISTAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

THIS ISSUE ABOUT THE UNDOCUMENTED AFGHANS -- I MET SOME OF THEM WHEN I VISITED IN APRIL EARLIER THIS YEAR, WERE IMMENSELY CONCERNED ABOUT THE NEED TO MOBILIZE ESPECIALLY HEALTH TREATMENT FOR THESE PEOPLE, AND, OF COURSE, WE'RE CONCERNED THAT IN THE FACE OF THE GLOBAL EMERGENCY THAT EXISTS, THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE THE BANDWIDTH TO ADDRESS THIS.

SO, THESE CRISES PILE UP AND THEY PILE UP ABOVE ALL ON THE AID WORKERS OF ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE IRC, BUT WE ARE MOBILIZING IN RESPONSE TO THAT AFGHAN CRISIS.

>> THERE'S JUST SO MUCH CRISES AT THE MOMENT.

DAVID, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE G7 MEETING IN TOKYO TODAY, THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN AGAIN SAID THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OPPOSES ANY ISRAELI REOCCUPATION OF GAZA.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> AS IT CANNOT BE -- CONTINUE TO BE RUN BY HAMAS, THAT SIMPLY INVITES REPETITION OF OCTOBER 7th, AND GAZA USED AS A PLACE FROM WHICH TO LAUNCH TERRORIST ATTACKS.

IT IS ALSO CLEAR THAT ISRAEL CANNOT OCCUPY GAZA.

NOW, THE REALITY IS THAT THERE MAY BE A NEED FOR SOME TRANSITION PERIOD AT THE END OF THE CONFLICT, BUT IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE BE CENTRAL TO GOVERNANCE IN GAZA, AND IN THE WEST BANK, AS WELL.

>> INDEED, ON THIS PROGRAM YESTERDAY, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S ADVISER SAID THAT OCCUPATION IS NOT IN THEIR PLANS, BUT JUST HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DOES WASHINGTON REALLY HAVE AT THIS MOMENT?

DANIEL KURTZER SERVED AS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO EGYPT AND LATER TO ISRAEL FROM 2001 TO 2005.

DANIEL KURTZER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AMBASSADOR.

CAN I FIRST ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN GAZA, AND IRC AND INCREASINGLY LOUD VOICES, INCLUDING FROM THE UNITED STATES, CALLING FOR SOME KIND OF RELIEF.

IRC SAYING THAT IT NEEDS TO BE FIVE DAYS WITH CAREFUL DEPLOYMENT OF RESOURCES AND THE ABILITY TO ACTUALLY GET LIFE-SAVING RESOURCES IN.

OTHERS SAYING, AND CERTAINLY ISRAEL, NO, NO, NO, BECAUSE IT WILL ALLOW HAMAS TO REGROUP.

CAN YOU -- CAN YOU FIGURE OUT HOW TO THREAD THAT NEEDLE?

>> WELL, I THINK DAVID MILIBAND PUT HIS FINGER ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE.

NUMBER ONE, IT WILL REQUIRE MORE THAN A FEW HOURS TO PUT INTO PLACE THE KIND OF -- OF VOLUME OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, WHETHER IT'S FOOD AND FUEL AND WATER AND MEDICAL CARE THAT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, BUT HE ALSO NOTED CORRECTLY THAT BEFORE YOU CAN PUT A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE OR HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE INTO EFFECT, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

WHO ARE THE PARTIES TO IT?

IS IT ISRAEL AND HAMAS?

WHO SPEAKS FOR HAMAS?

WHAT ABOUT PALESTINE ISLAMIC JIHAD?

WHO MONITORS WHAT HAPPENS DURING THIS PERIOD?

AND WHAT HAPPENS IF ONE PERSON OR THE OTHER VIOLATES IT?

IT'S NOT SIMPLE TO SIMPLY SAY, WELL, LET'S HAVE A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE, WHEN EITHER SIDE COULD VIOLATE IT IN A WAY WHICH MAKES THE RESUMPTION OF HOSTILITIES THAT MUCH MORE CHALLENGING.

SO, I THINK THE EFFORTS NOW BY SECRETARY BLINKEN, CIA DIRECTOR BURNS, WHO IS OUT IN THE REGION, THE QATARIS AND OTHERS, ARE WORKING TOWARDS RESOLVING THESE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES, SO AS TO GET TO THE MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION OF BRINGING IN THE HUMANITARIAN REQUIREMENTS.

>> AND ON THAT BIG PICTURE, PARTICULARLY THE ISSUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOW TALKING MORE AND MORE ABOUT, AND THAT IS TO PROTECT CIVILIANS, TO SEPARATE CIVILIANS FROM THE FIGHTERS.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ABOUT THIS ISSUE, AND DID NOT GET THE ANSWER THAT HE WANTED, AND WAS SOMEWHAT TAKEN ABACK.

IT -- DO YOU FEEL THAT BIDEN AND THE ADMINISTRATION, WHO ARE STRONGLY BEHIND ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE, OBVIOUSLY, HAVE ANY INFLUENCE OVER WHAT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU DOES IN THIS CASE?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I THINK WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS TRIED TO DO FOR THE LAST FOUR WEEKS IS TO CREATE THE PUBLIC SPACE OF SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL THAT ALLOWS HIM TO HAVE VERY TOUGH AND DIRECT CONVERSATIONS WITH THE ISRAELIS.

AND I THINK WE'RE NOW SEEING THE SUM OF THE RESULTS OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

THEY'RE NOT ALL POSITIVE.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT WILL CONTINUE AT IT, AS WILL OTHER U.S. OFFICIALS, BUT THE UNITED STATES, FIRST OF ALL, DOES BELIEVE THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO DEGRADE HAMAS' CAPABILITIES.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO CREATE AN ATMOSPHERE AFTER THIS WAR ENDS THAT DOES NOT ALLOW HAMAS TO RE-ESTABLISH ITSELF AND GOVERN IN GAZA.

BUT THE PRESIDENT, I'M CONFIDENT, HAS BEEN TELLING THE PRIME MINISTER THAT, YOU NEED TO MODERATE AND CHANGE THE WAY YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING IN GAZA.

THE BOMBING MAY HAVE BEEN AIMED AT TRYING TO FIND THE TUNNELS AND THE UNDERGROUND HEADQUARTERS, BUT THE DEGREE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES SUGGESTS THAT THERE HAVE TO BE OTHER WAYS OF FINDING HAMAS, AND I THINK THE ISRAELI GROUND OPERATION IS NOW FOCUSED ON LOCATING THE TUNNELS, LOCATING THE UNDERGROUND BUNKERS, AND TRYING TO UPROOT HAMAS THAT WAY.

>> WE JUST HEARD FROM SECRETARY BLINKEN IN THE SOUNDBYTE THAT I PLAYED ABOUT THE DAY AFTER, SO TO SPEAK, AND THIS IS ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, BIG UNKNOWN.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SURPRISED EVERYBODY WHEN HE GAVE HIS FIRST INTERVIEW TO AN AMERICAN STATION, WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT INDEFINITE SECURITY CONTROL OF GAZA.

YOU JUST HEARD BLINKEN SAID, YOU KNOW, NEITHER ISRAEL SHOULD OCCUPY, NOR SHOULD HAMAS BE IN CHARGE.

LAST NIGHT, I ASKED AMBASSADOR REGEV ABOUT WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE, THIS INDEFINITE SECURITY CONTROL.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

>> IT WILL HAVE TO BE AN ISRAELI SECURITY PRESENCE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ISRAEL IS REOCCUPYING GAZA, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT ISRAEL IS THERE TO GOVERN THE GAZANS.

WE ARE INTERESTED IN THE GAZANS RULE THEMSELVES, WHERE THERE CAN BE SUPPORT TO REBUILD GAZA.

HOPEFULLY THERE CAN BE A DEMILITARIZED POST-HAMAS GAZA.

>> SO, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

AND WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON IT?

AND AS YOU KNOW, AND THIS IS, I THINK, IMPORTANT, BECAUSE PRIME MINISTER NET YA HUE IS IN COALITION WITH VERY SERIOUSLY IDEOLOGICAL RELIGIOUS NATIONALISTS THAT WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO GO BACK TO GAZA, AND WE'VE SEEN TWEETS AND WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, PICTURES OF SOLDIERS ON THE BEACH IN GAZA NOW WAVING THE ISRAELI FLAG AND IT IS PROVIDING FODDER FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO REOCCUPY.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO?

>> CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVE CALLED ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TO LEAVE OFFICE.

HIS LEADERSHIP IS DISCREDITED, HIS CABINET OF EXTREMIST POLITICIANS IS PROVING ITSELF EVEN DURING THIS FIGHTING TO BE BEYOND THE PALE.

AND SO, THESE STATEMENTS ABOUT REOCCUPYING GAZA OR CREATING WHAT COULD BE A LONG-TERM SECURITY PRESENCE, I THINK, HAVE TO BE TAKEN ONLY AT FACE VALUE.

SECRETARY BLINKEN IS 100% THAT ANY OCCUPATION OR REOCCUPATION OR LONG-TERM PRESENCE OF ISRAEL IS A GUARANTEE OF A LONG-TERM CONFLICT WITH UNTOLD CONSEQUENCES.

THE TWO ORDERS OF BUSINESS THAT NEED TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT NOW FOR THE DAY AFTER MEAN, NUMBER ONE, THAT ISRAEL HAS TO BE OUT, NUMBER TWO, THAT A VERY SIGNIFICANT EFFORT AT RECONSTRUCTION OF PALESTINIAN LIFE, OF BUILDINGS, OF OCCUPATIONS, OF RESOURCES WITHIN GAZA NEED TO BE UNDERTAKEN, BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE ALSO A HORIZON FOR A POLITICAL OUTCOME THAT ASSURES THAT WE ARE GOING TO MOVE TOWARDS A SETTLEMENT OF THE UNDERLYING DISPUTE, AND NOT HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE RETURN TO THE STATUS QUO, ONLY TO HAVE ANOTHER WAR OR MORE TERRORISM A FEW YEARS FROM NOW.

SO, SECRETARY BLINKEN IS EXACTLY RIGHT, I HOPE ISRAELI LEADERS ARE LISTENING TO THIS.

I'M NOT SURE THE PRIME MINISTER IS LISTENING TO IT.

BUT HIS DISCREDITED LEADERSHIP WILL PROBABLY END SHORTLY AFTER THIS WAR, AS A RESULT OF A COMMISSION OF INQUIRY, AND MAYBE WE CAN FIND AN ISRAELI LEADERSHIP THAT UNDERSTANDS THE NEED, FIRST OF ALL, TO HELP THE PALESTINIANS RECONSTRUCT THEIR LIVES IN GAZA, BUT ALSO TO LOOK FORWARD WITH THE PALESTINIANS TOWARDS A DIFFERENT FUTURE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON WHAT FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID RECENTLY IN A PODCAST ABOUT EVERYBODY'S RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CURRENT STATUS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS?

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> IF YOU WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, THEN YOU HAVE TO TAKE IN THE WHOLE TRUTH.

AND YOU THEN HAVE TO ADMIT NOBODY'S HANDS ARE CLEAN, THAT ALL OF US HAVE -- ARE COMPLICIT TO SOME DEGREE.

I LOOK AT THIS AND I THINK BACK, WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE DURING MY PRESIDENCY TO MOVE THIS FORWARD, AS HARD AS I TRIED, I'VE GOT THE SCARS TO PROVE IT.

BUT THERE'S A PART OF ME THAT'S STILL SAYING, WELL, WAS THERE SOMETHING I COULD HAVE DONE?

>> SO, AMBASSADOR, CAN YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

FIRST OF ALL, WAS THERE SOMETHING ELSE HE OR ANY OF THE OTHER RECENT AMERICAN PRESIDENTS COULD HAVE DONE BETTER?

>> WELL, 100%.

PRESIDENT OBAMA IS EXACTLY ON POINT.

WE'VE TRIED -- WE, BEING THE UNITED STATES, HAVE TRIED OVER THE PAST 30-PLUS YEARS TO ENCOURAGE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS TO FIND A WAY TO MEET EACH OTHER SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE ON QUESTIONS RELATED TO TERRITORY AND PEACE AND SETTLEMENTS AND SO FORTH.

AND WE WERE NOT ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL, AND I THINK WHAT PRESIDENT OBAMA IS SAYING, DID WE ALL WORK HARD ENOUGH?

WERE WE TOUGH ENOUGH?

WERE WE ABLE TO PUT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON BOTH SIDES AND TO OFFER INCENTIVES FOR BOTH SIDES THAT MIGHT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE?

NOW, THE REALITY, IS AND I WOULD THINK PRESIDENT OBAMA DOESN'T MEAN THAT ISRAEL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OCTOBER 7th, THAT WAS A HAMAS, HORRIFIC OPERATION, BUT IF YOU TAKE THE LONG VIEW OF ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN INTERACTION, PEACE NEGOTIATIONS AND CONFLICT, THE REALITY IS THAT NONE OF US IS EXEMPT FROM CRITICISM, AND ALL OF US BEAR RESPONSIBILITY.

THE ISRAELIS, FOR MAINTAINING A 56-YEAR OCCUPATION, BUILDING SETTLEMENTS, PALESTINIANS FOR CONTINUING VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM AND NOT RESPONDING WHEN PEACE PROCESS OFFERS WERE PUT ON THE TABLE BY ISRAEL.

AND THE UNITED STATES, AS MIGHT BE CALLED THE ESSENTIAL THIRD PARTY, OF NOT DOING ITS HOMEWORK AND NOT BEING TOUGH ENOUGH TO SEE THIS PROCESS OF PEACE-MAKING THROUGH TO ITS CONCLUSION.

>> INDEED, AS YOU SAY, PRESIDENT OBAMA ALSO URGES US TO, YOU KNOW, HOLD QUOTE, CONTRADICTORY IDEAS, WHAT HAMAS DID WAS HORRIFIC, AND THE OCCUPATION IS UNBEARABLE, AND ANTI-SEMITISM IS AN ONGOING THREAT, AND NOT ALL PALESTINIANS SUPPORT HAMAS.

SO, YOU HAVE PRETTY MUCH -- I'M LISTING AND EXPANDING ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID, BUT -- THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, PREVIOUS AMERICAN PEACE NEGOTIATORS WHO ARE ON THE RECORD SAYING WHAT YOU JUST DID, DID WE TRY HARD ENOUGH?

AND YOU ARE ON THE RECORD IN "THE HUMAN FACTOR," WERE THE UNITED STATES TOO MUCH ISRAEL'S LAWYER?

WAS THE UNITED STATES WILLING TO DO THE HARD JOB OF BEING A REAL FRIEND, LIKE PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND JAMES BAKER, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO WERE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT ISRAEL'S SECURITY AND TRYING TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT PEACEFULLY AND JUSTLY.

NOBODY WAS SINCE, SINCE GEORGE W. BUSH.

SORRY -- SORRY GEORGE H.W.

BUSH, PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W.

BUSH.

WOULD YOU AGREE?

>> 100%.

BOTH IN THAT DOCUMENTARY, AND IN A COUPLE OF BOOKS THAT I'VE DONE, AND ARTICLES SINCE LEAVING GOVERNMENT, I'VE TRIED TO TAKE A HARD LOOK IN THE MIRROR AT WHAT THE UNITED STATES DID, DID NOT DO, AND SHOULD HAVE DONE, AND YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT, CHRISTIANE.

AFTER THE GEORGE H.W.

BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND THE HEROIC EFFORTS AT THE TIME, OUR EFFORTS FELL SHORT, IN SUBSEQUENT CHALLENGES THAT WE FACED.

BOTH FOLLOWING THE OSLO ACCORDS, EVEN IN THE CAMP DAVID SUMMIT IN THE YEAR 2000, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH HAD A SUMMIT MEETING IN 2007.

THE UNITED STATES DIDN'T FOLLOW UP.

SECRETARY KERRY TRIED.

THERE'S BEEN ACTIVITY, BUT THERE'S NEVER BEEN THE DETERMINED, STRONG, PERSISTENT AMERICAN LEADERSHIP AND DETERMINATION TO SEE THIS THROUGH THAT WE SAW BACK IN THE FIRST BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN CALLING FOR, FOR MANY YEARS.

VERY OFTEN IN AN ECHO CHAMBER, WHERE NOBODY'S LISTENING, BUT THE QUESTION IS, ARE WE GOING TO TRY TO DO IT NOW?

BECAUSE IF ALL WE DO IS RECONSTRUCT GAZA, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A CRITICAL FIRST STEP, IF THAT'S ALL WE DO, WE'RE FATING OURSELVES TO REPEAT THIS WAR IN THE FUTURE.

WE MUST TAKE A HARD LOOK AT WHAT'S CALLED THE PEACE PROCESS AND GET THESE TWO PARTIES TO UNDERSTAND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE HARD CHOICES AND STOP DOING THE BAD THINGS THEY'RE DOING AND START REACHING OUT TO EACH OTHER FOR PEACE.

>> YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE IN WHICH YOU RECALLED WHAT YOUR ISRAELI HAD SAID BACK DURING THE IRAQ WAR PERIOD, THAT THEY WARNED ABOUT THE BLOW-BACK FROM THAT WAR, AND ESPECIALLY, THEY DERIDED THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S NOTION THAT SOMEHOW DEMOCRACY WAS GOING TO COME FLOURISHING IN THE MIDDLE EAST THROUGH THE BOMBING OF BAGHDAD.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY FOR YOU SOMETHING FROM THE ARCHIVE, IN FACT, SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FROM BACK IN 2005, WHEN THE U.S.

INSISTED THAT THESE ELECTIONS TAKE PLACE, THAT BROUGHT HAMAS TO POWER.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> WE WOULD HOPE THAT THE ELECTIONS CAN GO FORWARD AND THAT EVERYONE WILL COOPERATE TO -- TO MAKE THOSE ELECTIONS GO FORWARD, BECAUSE ELECTIONS ARE FUNDAMENTAL TO THE CONTINUED EVOLUTION AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE PALESTINIAN PROCESS.

>> SO, SHE THEN SAID AFTERWARDS, WE'VE GOT TO GO AND DO AN AFTER-ACTION REPORT, WE HAD NO IDEA HOW POPULAR AT THE TIME HAMAS WAS.

CAN THE UNITED STATES BE TRUSTED TO GET IT RIGHT IN THE FUTURE?

>> IT'S REGRETTABLE THAT SECRETARY RICE WAS GETTING THAT KIND OF ANALYSIS.

I HAPPENED TO HAVE BEEN IN THE REGION.

I HAD ALREADY RETIRED FROM GOVERNMENT WHEN THOSE ELECTIONS TOOK PLACE, AND ALL I WAS HEARING BEFORE THE PALESTINIAN ELECTIONS WAS THAT THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION ORGANIZATION WAS GOING TO LOSE.

NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HAMAS' POPULARITY, THEY WEREN'T ALL THAT POPULAR, BUT BECAUSE OF PLO CORRUPTION AND DISSATISFACTION AND MISMANAGEMENT WITH THEIR GOVERNANCE.

SO, AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHY WE BELIEVED THAT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO BE PUSHING FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS GOING TO END UP THE WAY IT ENDED UP.

I THINK WHAT THIS CALLS FOR IS A MUCH DEEPER ANALYSIS OF THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND.

AND NOT ONLY ANALYSIS, BUT COMING TO GRIPS WITH REALITIES.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW WITH WHICH WE CANNOT WORK ON THE PEACE PROCESS.

AND SO, ONE OF THE KEY REQUIREMENTS AFTER THIS WAR ENDS IS TO HAVE THE ISRAELI PEOPLE MAKE A DECISION ABOUT WHERE THEY WANT TO GO.

AND IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO WORK WITH THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT ON A PEACE PROCESS, SINCE THEY BARELY MANAGE TO GOVERN THE WEST BANK, AND WE'RE EXPECTING THEM TO TRY TO GOVERN GAZA.

SO, THERE'S A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE, AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S UNFORTUNATE OR NOT, THE UNITED STATES IS STILL THE ONLY REAL OUTSIDE PARTY THAT WITH DETERMINATION CAN TRY TO MAKE SOME OF THESE THINGS WORK.

>> AMBASSADOR KURTZER, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXPERTISE AND YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

HAVING BEEN IN THE ROOM.

>>> NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, DEMOCRATS DEFIED POLLSTERS LAST NIGHT, HOLDING THEIR GROUND IN THOSE STATEWIDE ELECTIONS.

IN VIRGINIA, THE PARTY GAINED FULL CONTROL OVER THE STATE LEGISLATURE, WHILE RHODE ISLAND ELECTED A BLACK CONGRESSMAN.

ASTEAD HERNDON FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAS MORE WITH HARI.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

ASTEAD, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

WHAT WERE YOU WATCHING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY LAST NIGHT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THE PRINCIPLE RACES, YOU KNOW, THE KENTUCKY GOVERNOR'S RACE, WE HAD THE KIND OF STATE LEGISLATURE AND STATE SENATE THAT WERE UP IN VIRGINIA, THOSE WERE CALLED KIND OF AT THE END OF THE NIGHT FOR DEMOCRATS.

WE WERE WATCHING MISSISSIPPI, BUT THAT ENDED UP NOT GOING TO A RUNOFF AND HOLDING WITH THE REPUBLICANS.

I THINK ON THE TOP LINE, YOU REALLY JUST HAVE BEEN WATCHING ALL OF THE KIND OF RACES THAT SHOW THE CONTINUED SAIL AGAINST OF ABORTION RIGHTS, BOTH FROM KENTUCKY TO OHIO TO, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THAT CONTINUES TO TREND FOR DEMOCRATS.

WE'VE SEEN BASICALLY SINCE THE DOBBS DECISION HAS FALLEN, AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING INTO THE NIGHT GOING INTO.

AND YOU LOOK AT VIRGINIA, KENTUCKY, AND OHIO, THERE'S A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THAT IS STILL TOP OF MIND FOR VOTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> FIRST, LET'S TALK ABOUT OHIO.

CHANGE TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS A CHANGE TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION FOR ABORTION RIGHTS.

AND LET'S REMEMBER, THIS IS THE KIND OF LATEST ITERATION OF A FIGHT THAT'S BEEN PLAYING OUT FOR AWHILE.

REPUBLICANS TRIED TO RAISE THE STANDARD ON THE STATE REFERENDUM, BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD DRIVE TO THE POLLS, THEY TRIED TO CHANGE THE DATE OF THE ELECTION, AND YOU STILL SAW DEMOCRATS HAVE A RESOUNDING, KIND OF DECISIVE VICTORY THERE.

THAT'S OVER THE CONCERNS OF SOME REPUBLICAN STATE OFFICIALS WHO HAVE REALLY CAMPAIGNED HARD AGAINST IT.

I THINK THE MARGIN THERE REALLY, TO ME, SAYS THAT WE NEED TO START REFRAMING HOW WE THINK ABOUT THIS.

THIS ISN'T JUST AN ISSUE FOR WOMEN IN SUBURBS.

YOU'VE SEEN THIS KIND OF CREATE A NEW TYPE OF COALITION THAT WHEN ABORTION RIGHTS ON THE BALLOT, THIS IS A, YOU KNOW, A WIDE RANGE OF PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER, EVEN IN A RED STATE.

AND SO, I THINK OHIO'S A CLEAR KIND OF MESSAGE AND THE REASON WHY, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS ARE TRYING TO REALLY CONSOLIDATE AROUND A MESSAGE OF PROTECTING FREEDOMS AND ABORTION RIGHTS FOR 2024, AND WHY REPUBLICANS REALLY HAVEN'T FOUND AN ANSWER TO IT.

BECAUSE AS THEY CONTINUE TO KIND OF STICK THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND AND TRY TO FEAR MONGER AROUND DEMOCRATIC TACTICS, THAT'S NOT WORKING FOR VOTERS.

THEY SEE THEM AS EXTREMISTS WHO ARE TAKING THEIR RIGHTS AWAY.

>> NOW, WHAT HAPPENED IN VIRGINIA?

IT WASN'T ON THE BALLOT, PER SE, BUT IT STILL PLAYED A FACTOR, YOU THINK, IN FLIPPING THE LEGISLATURE?

>> I THINK IT DID, BECAUSE I THINK WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT GOVER GLENN YOUNGKIN'S ROLE IN THESE RACES.

HE WON IN 2021 KIND OF ON THE MESSAGE OF A PRINCIPLE CONSERVATIVE AND HE TRIED TO USE THESE ELECTIONS AS A KIND OF LITMUS TEST OF HIS CONSERVATIVE AGENDA, BECAUSE THE FULLNESS OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE WAS UP, BOTH THE STATE HOUSE AND SENATE.

DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED ONE HOUSE, BUT WERE LOOKING TO SEEK BOTH, AND YOUNGKIN SAID, IF YOU GIVE ME TWO HOUSES OF A REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE, I WILL GIVE YOU A CONSERVATIVE AGENDA THAT INCLUDES KIND OF FINDING A MODERATE OR COMPROMISE POSITION ON ABORTION THAT WILL LIMIT IT TO SOMETHING LIKE 15 WEEKS.

THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS KIND OF GOING AROUND THE STATE SAYING, AND SPECIFICALLY PITCH IT TO NATIONAL MEDIA AS MAYBE AN ENTRY POINT FOR HIM TO GET INTO THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

BUT THAT DIDN'T COME TO FRUITION.

YOU SAW DEMOCRATS REALLY DO WELL, AND THEY TOOK CONTROL OF BOTH HOUSES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE, FUNCTIONALLY, YOU KNOW, KIND OF GRINDING YOUNGKIN'S PROPOSED AGENDA TO A HALT.

AND I THINK THAT'S SEEN AS A REAL BLOW TO HIS KIND OF -- PARENTS' RIGHTS, ABORTION PROTECTIONS, HE WAS TRYING TO PUT INTO PLACE.

AND ANOTHER KIND OF RESULT THAT, YOU KNOW, STUCK OUT IN VIRGINIA, THAT LOUDOUN COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD ALSO WENT TO LIBERALS.

THAT WAS A PLACE WHERE THERE HAD BEEN SO MANY VOTES ABOUT CULTURE WARS, THE SO-CALLED WOKE MESSAGES THAT WERE COMING FROM EDUCATION, AND THIS IS NOT REALLY MOTIVATED REPUBLICANED TO THE DEGREE THAT THEY HAD HOPED ONCE AGAIN.

AND SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL THE NATIONAL NARRATIVE ABOUT JOE BIDEN'S PROBLEMS, WE ACTUALLY SAW A DEMOCRATIC PARTY, PARTICULARLY IN VIRGINIA, THAT WAS SHOWING REAL SIGNS OF HEALTH.

>> SO, WHILE WE HAVE ONE GOVERNOR IN VIRGINIA WHOSE PRESIDENTIAL PROSPECTS MIGHT HAVE DIMMED A LITTLE AFTER LAST NIGHT, ANDY BESHEAR IN KENTUCKY SEEMED TO KIND OF IMPROVE HIS STATURE.

>> I MEAN, HE IMPROVED HIS STATURE, NOT ONLY NATIONALLY, BUT WHEN WE THINK BACK TO WHEN HE RAN FOUR YEARS AGO, HE SAW EVEN BIGGER MARGINS THIS TIME AROUND THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO SOMEONE WHO USED THE POWER OF INCUMBENCY TO HIS ADVANTAGE AND HAS A REAL NAME BRAND IN THE STATE.

NOW, REMEMBER THAT BESHEAR IS A UNIQUE KIND OF KENTUCKY FIGURE.

HAS A LONG-STANDING FAMILY NAME AND HAS A HISTORY OF BEING A KIND OF APPROACHABLE DEMOCRAT IN A RED STATE, BUT THAT SHOULD NOT OVERSHADOW WHAT HE DID IN THIS RACE.

HE EMBRACED THE IDEA OF PROTECTING ABORTION RIGHTS.

HE CAST HIS OPPONENT DANIEL CAMERON AS KIND OF AN EXTREMIST ON THIS ISSUE.

AND YOU ALSO SAW HIM REALLY, YOU KNOW, AS A STATE THAT HAS EXPERIENCED A RECENT MASS SHOOTING, YOU KNOW, HE WAS THE FACE OF THE KIND OF CONSOLATION AND, YOU KNOW, FOR CITIZENS, AND THAT SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY DONE HIM WELL.

WE SAW A LOT OF COUNTIES THAT VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP AS RECENTLY AS 2020 VOTE FOR ANDY BESHEAR LAST NIGHT.

AND SO, THAT REALLY SAYS THAT THERE WAS SOME CROSSOVER APPEAL FOR THIS INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATE.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A MODEL, IF WE LOOK ABOUT HOW DEMOCRATS CAN RUN BROADLY COME 2024.

IF YOU TRY TO MAKE IT NOT ABOUT THE KIND OF NATIONAL RACE, BUT LOCALIZED SPECIFICALLY THE ISSUES OF ABORTION AND PROTECTING DEMOCRACY, THAT'S GOING TO BE THE PLAYBOOK.

I WAS TALKING TO A STATE PARTY SHARE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, AND HE TOLD ME, THEY HAVE TO COMMUNICATE THE STAKES OF THOSE ISSUES TO THEIR VOTERS, BECAUSE WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SINCE 2020 IS THAT DEMOCRATS WILL COME OUT WHEN THAT IS -- WHEN THAT IS COMMUNICATED.

THAT'S TRUE IN THE MIDTERMS, THAT'S TRUE IN THE OFFYEAR ELECTIONS AND THEY'RE HOPING THAT'S GOING TO BE TRUE NEXT YEAR.

>> TATE REEVES HELD ONTO HIS SEAT IN MISSISSIPPI.

HE WAS CHALLENGED BY A COUSIN OF ELVIS PRESLEY?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

THERE WAS AN INTERESTING RACE IN MISSISSIPPI, PARTIALLY BECAUSE TATE REEVES HAS BEEN EXPERIENCING A SPATE OF SCANDAL, WHICH CAUSED HIM TO REALLY THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGER, BRANDON PRESLEY, COULD DO SOME REAL -- COULD MAKE SOME REAL INROADS THERE, BUT MISSISSIPPI IS A FAMOUSLY TOUGH STATE FOR DEMOCRATS TO WIN.

THE HIGHEST PROPORTION OF NONWHITE VOTERS IN THE COUNTRY.

IT'S A VERY BLACK STATE.

SO, YOU CAN ACTUALLY GET TO KIND OF 45%, 46%, IF A DEMOCRAT MOBILIZED ALL THOSE BLACK VOTERS LIKE WEE KIND OF SAW LAST NIGHT.

THE DIFFICULTY OF MISSISSIPPI IS GETTING PAST THAT THRESHOLD TO MORE THAN 50%.

IT'S A STATE THAT JUST IMPLEMENTED A RUNOFF LAW, SO, ACTUALLY, LAST NIGHT, WE WERE LOOKING TO SEE IF REEVES WOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD PAST 50% TO AVOID THE RUNOFF, AND HE DID DO SO.

>> WHAT'S THE MESSAGE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE FACING RIGHT NOW, IF THEY ARE TAKING THESE LOSSES THAT ARE MOVED BY VOTERS WHO CARE A LOT ABOUT ABORTION, OR WHO CARE LESS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS AND IS NOT WOKE AND WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS?

>> I THINK, FOR REPUBLICANS, THERE HAS TO BE A REAL SOUL SEARCH ABOUT THEIR MESSAGE BY ABORTION RIGHTS.

THEY HAVE BEEN LED BY A WING OF THE PARTY THAT IS CLEARLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

SO, IF THE LESSON FOR CONSERVATIVES IS THAT THE DOBBS DECISION WAS GOING TO BRING THIS BACK TO THE STATES, WAS GOING TO BE A KIND OF DEMOCRATIC REPOSITIONING OF THIS ISSUE, THEY NEED TO TAKE THE LESSONS OF DEMOCRACY AND MAKE CLEAR THAT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, IF THEY ARE PUT IN FRONT OF THEM, ARE GOING TO ACT TO PROTECT ABORTION RIGHTS.

REPUBLICANS HAVE TO ASK THEMSELVES THAT.

THE OTHER KIND OF QUESTION HERE IS, JUST LIKE, THE GENERAL TRUMP TRY ANGULATION.

THEY HAVE NOT SEEN A KIND OF -- HIS KIND OF ENERGY TRANSLATE TO OTHER CANDIDATES.

AND SO, IF THERE IS AN ENTHUSIASM PROBLEM, IF THERE'S A SPLIT AMONG THE REPUBLICAN BASE, THEN THAT MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE LESS ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ANY DEMOCRATIC SHORTCOMINGS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS AT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION EARLIER THIS YEAR, THE FIRST AND FOREMOST THING THEY SAID THEY NEED HEADING INTO 2024 IS UNITY AROUND THE PARTY.

NOW IN THE PRIMARY, THERE HAS BEEN BASICALLY A DEFERENCE TO DONALD TRUMP, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM YOU HAVE A UNITED PARTY AROUND THAT FIGURE.

AND BECAUSE YOU STILL HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING THAT HE HAS TOO MUCH BAGGAGE THAN OTHERS.

SO, IF YOU ARE REPUBLICANS THERE'S NOT ONLY A MESSAGE PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO ABORTION, THERE IS A UNITY PROBLEM, WHEN IT COMES TO WHETHER THE BASE OF THIS PARTY WANTS AND WHAT ITS DELIVERING IN TERMS OF CANDIDATES, BECAUSE IT IS NOT DELIVERING WINS.

THESE ARE WINNABLE RACES FOR REPUBLICANS LAST NIGHT, AND IN 2022, AND THEY ARE LOSING THEM.

AND THAT'S A CLEAR MESSAGE.

>> LAST YEAR, WHEN WE SPOKE, YOU DESCRIBED THE, QUOTE, STENCH THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS LEFT ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE REPUBLICAN BRAND, BUT HERE WE ARE NOW, FOUR INDICTMENTS, 90-PLUS CRIMINAL CHARGES LATER, AND HE IS STILL OUTPERFORMING ALL THE OTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND HE DOESN'T EVEN >> YEAH, YEAH, IT'S STUNNING, REALLY.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS A KIND OF DIFFERENCE IN ASSUMPTIONS FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT POST-MIDTERMS, THERE WAS A LOT OF ASSUMED POLITICAL FALLOUT THAT FOLKS THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN FROM THE INDICTMENTS.

OF COURSE, VOTERS COULD HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND SAY THAT THAT MAKES HIM, YOU KNOW, DISQUALIFIES HIM FOR A PRESIDENT SI, AND THAT REALLY HASN'T HAPPENED.

ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU'VE SEEN PEOPLE REALLY CONSOLIDATE AROUND HIM, UNDER THE VISION OF HIM BEING PERSECUTED.

THE LATEST CNN POVLING HAS HIM AT 61% NATIONALLY AMONG -- IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.

THAT MEANS THAT THIS WHOLE YEAR, YOU KNOW, THESE OTHER CANDIDATES, HAVEN'T REALLY MADE A DENT IN HIS SUPPORT, AND HE IS CONSOLIDATING AND GROWING THAT OVER THE SUMMER.

I THINK THAT'S ONE PIECE OF IT.

BUT I DO THINK THERE IS AN IMPACT TO THE INDICTMENTS, WHEN WE THINK BROADLY AND LOOK AHEAD TO A GENERAL ELECTION.

THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT WANT A REMATCH OF 2020.

THAT THINKS THAT JOE BIDEN IS SIMPLY TOO OLD AND THINKS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SIMPLY TOO MUCH BAGGAGE.

AND SO, THAT IS THE BIG IMPACT OF THEM -- OF US BEING BROUGHT BACK TO THIS POINT.

IT COMPLICATES THE QUESTION OF JUST WHO'S GOING TO WIN, BECAUSE I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE AN ELECTORATE THAT IS NEAR OPEN REVOLT.

SO, WILL THAT MEAN THERE'S MORE INTEREST IN A THIRD PARTY CANDIDATE?

WILL THAT MEAN PEOPLE VOTE DOWN BALL LATE?

WILL THAT MEAN YOUNG PEOPLE STAY OUT?

I DON'T KNOW KIND OF WHERE THAT KIND OF -- WHERE THAT IMPACT FALLS, BUT I DO THINK IT COMPLETELY UPENDS THE TYPE OF CALCULATIONS WE'RE SEEING.

IN A TYPICAL YEAR, I THINK WE COULD TAKE THESE OFF-YEAR ELECTIONS AS A SIGN FOR THE NEXT YEAR, BUT WITH THOSE TWO CANDIDATES AT THE TOP OF THE BALLOT, I THINK IT SCRAMBLES EVERYTHING.

>> IS THERE A SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH CONVERSATION IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RIGHT NOW TO SAY, AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE CANDIDATE, THAT PERHAPS LOTS OF OTHER REPUBLICANS STAND A BETTER CHANCE AT BEATING JOE BIDEN?

REGARDLESS OF WHAT HE'S BEEN ABLE TO DO WITH THE ECONOMY, WHAT HE'S ABLE TO MANAGE IN FOREIGN POLICY AND SO ON?

>> I THINK THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I -- YOU KNOW, I -- LAST WEEK, YOU KNOW, FOR THIS WEEK'S EPISODE OF "THE RUNUP, OTHER OUR PODCAST, WE TALKED TO THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN IN DELAWARE TO ASK THEM THIS QUESTION, AND WHAT THEY SAY IS, THEY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE REAL WORK TO DO, THAT THEY'RE INVESTING MONEY EARLY TO WIN OVER BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, THAT THEY'RE TREATING THEM AS PERSUADABLE VOTERS, NOT BASE VOTERS.

THEY RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE TO CONVINCE THEM TO COME OUT, RATHER THAN JUST ASSUME THEY WILL COME OUT.

BUT I GUESS THAT'S STILL COMING UP AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTAL FLAW HERE, WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, A CANDIDATE THAT WAS SEEN AS AN EMERGENCY OPTION IS ASKING FOR A RENEWAL OF HIS CONTRACT, AND I THINK THAT FOR A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE, IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHETHER JOE BIDEN WAS A GOOD PRESIDENT OR NOT.

IT'S ABOUT WHERE THEY WANT HIM TO BE THE PRESIDENT GOING FORWARD.

SO, I THINK DEMOCRATS MIGHT FIND THEMSELVES COMING BACK AROUND TO TRYING TO MAKE THAT EMERGENCY MORAL ARGUMENT THAT YOU HAVE TO COME OUT, BECAUSE THE PROSPECT OF DONALD TRUMP WINNING IS SO SCARY.

AND I THINK THAT WILL MOTIVATE SOME PEOPLE, BUT I JUST WONDER IF THAT'S HARDER TO DO A SECOND TIME AROUND, PARTICULARLY WHEN THE ELECTORATE'S VIEWS OF DONALD TRUMP HAVE BECOME MORE NIGH LISTIC, AND THEY HAVE SEEN HIM AS KIND OF LESS AS AN EMERGENCY THREAT.

MAYBE THAT CHANGES COME NEXT YEAR, AFTER THESE CRIMINAL TRIALS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT AS OF NOW, THE ACT OF CALLING DONALD TRUMP DISTASTEFUL HAS NOT WORKED.

THE ELECTORATE DOES NOT SEE HIM AS UNIQUELY MORE EXTREME THAN JOE BIDEN.

AND THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR JOE BIDEN.

>> THERE'S ANOTHER PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE THAT'S HAPPENING TONIGHT, AND I'M WONDERING HOW MUCH YOU THINK NOW FOREIGN POLICY PLAYS INTO HOW THESE CANDIDATES ARE AUDITIONING?

AND THE IN VERSE, WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO JOE BIDEN'S SUPPORT BECAUSE OF THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK WE HAVE TO SEPARATE IT BY PARTIES.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT REPUBLICANS, THE SHEER FACT IS THAT THE -- YOU KNOW, THE CHANGES IN THE -- INCREASING GLOBAL CONFLICT HAS NOT UPENDED THAT RACE AT ALL.

THERE'S UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT WHEN YOU GET TO REPUBLICANS ABOUT THE NEED TO KIND OF UNCONDITIONALLY SUPPORT ISRAEL.

YOU HAVE KIND OF DONALD TRUMP SAYING, YOU KNOW, PRAISING HEZBOLLAH'S SMART AND SAYING RIDICULOUS, RHETORICAL THINGS.

HE'S BEEN PREVIOUSLY ACCUSED OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

THAT HASN'T REALLY HURT HIM ON THIS ISSUE.

REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO BE IN UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT TONIGHT ABOUT THE NEED TO SUPPORT ISRAEL, AND BLAMING THE CONFLICT ON JOE BIDEN'S SUPPOSED WEAK LEADERSHIP.

WHERE THERE IS NOT AGREEMENT FOR THEM IS ON THE QUESTION OF INCREASED AID TO UKRAINE, WHICH MUCH OF THAT INTERVENTIONIST TO NONINTERVENTIONIST SPLIT COMES UP, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SUPPORTING THEM ON THAT FRONT.

AMONG DEMOCRATS, THOUGH, IT'S UNQUESTIONABLY TRUE THAT THE CONFLICT IN ISRAEL AND GAZA HAS CHANGED KIND OF SOME FOLKS PERCEPTION OF JOE BIDEN.

I'VE BEEN SEEING REPORTING COMING OUT OF MICHIGAN ABOUT THE LARGE COMMUNITY THERE.

AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITIES KIND OF CHANGING BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS BEING DIFFERENTIAL TO PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS.

AND THEN, I THINK, WE SHOULD ALSO SAY, THE BIGGEST GROUP WHERE WE HAVE SEEN THIS TAKE ROOT IS YOUNG FOLKS, WHO HAVE BEEN INCREASINGLY CALLING, LEADING THE CALLS FOR A CEASE-FIRE, PRESSURING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO EMBRACE THAT TYPE OF LANGUAGE.

AND WE HAVE SEEN ONLY SOME DO THAT, AND REALLY THE TOP OF THE PARTY, JOE BIDEN, CHUCK SCHUMER, OTHERS, REALLY STAY CLEAR FROM THAT.

AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE THE INCREASING QUESTION FOR THIS, IS, DOES THE UNITED STATES' SUPPORT FOR REAL PUT FURTHER AWAY FROM WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ON THIS ISSUE, AND DOES THAT HURT THE PRESIDENT WHO NEEDED THOSE PEOPLE IN 2020.

>> YOU HAVE ANOTHER SEASON OF YOUR PODCAST UP, AND OF COURSE, THERE'S WHAT PEOPLE IN THE PRESS AND SORT OF PEOPLE WHO WATCH POLITICS THINK EVERYONE CARES ABOUT, AND HERE YOU ARE IN RURAL WASHINGTON STATE.

SO, WHAT DO THE VOTERS THAT YOU'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH, WHAT DOES RESONATE WITH THEM?

>> YEAH, IT'S A LOT OF THE ISSUES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

ONE THING THAT I REALLY LOVED THAT WE DID ON "THE RUNUP," WE WENT BACK TO PEOPLE AND THEY MATCHED UP A LOT OF OUR REPORTING.

WE WERE IN WASHINGTON STATE, A KIND OF RANDOM PLACE TO GO, BECAUSE IT'S THE LAST AND LONGEST STANDING BELLWETHER COUNTY IN AMERICA.

THIS IS THE ONLY COUNTY THAT'S GOTTEN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE CORRECT EVERY CYCLE SINCE 1980.

WE STAYED IN A DINER AND ASKED THE FOLKS WHO LIVED IN THIS TOWN, OF COURSE, HOW IS THIS GOING TO GO?

YOU TELL US.

AND SO, ONE OF THE THINGS WE KIND OF FOUND FROM THAT EXPLORATION IS, YOU KNOW, TO YOUR POINT, A REAL DISTASTE FOR TRUMP, NOT ONLY AMONG KIND OF OBVIOUSLY DEMOCRATS, BUT AMONG THOSE INDEPENDENTS AND REPUBLICANS.

I TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM IN 2016 WHO HAD SOURED, WOULD NOT VOTE FOR REPUBLICANS AGAIN.

TALKED TO SOMEONE WHO WROTE IN DAFFY DUCK IN 2020, BUT REFUSES TO BACK DONALD TRUMP IN 2024, AND HAS KIND OF BEEN UPSET WITH THE PARTY FOR AIDING AND ABETTING HIS CANDIDACY'S RISE.

AND SO, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE THAT KIND OF GROUP OF TRUMP SUPPORTERS, IT SEEMS LIKE A COMMUNITY THAT IS TRENDING FURTHER AWAY FROM WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS, LIKE A LOT OF SWING VOTERS ARE RIGHT NOW.

SO, THAT WAS THE KIND OF OVERALL THING WE TOOK FROM IT, WAS THAT THERE WAS A SENSE OF ANXIETY AND DREAD ABOUT NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION, THAT THREATENS TO REALLY UPEND THIS FROM THE TOP DOWN.

AND IF PEOPLE FEEL KIND OF UNSATISFIED WITH THESE TWO OPTIONS AND CANDIDATES, IT IS REALLY GOING TO EFFECT HOW THEY VIEW THEIR OWN SENSE OF POWER AND ABILITY TO MAKE CHANGE IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AND SO, THAT REALLY CAME UP, AND SORT OF WHAT WE WERE DOING IN WASHINGTON, AND IT WASN'T JUST WHO THEY THOUGHT WAS GOING TO WIN, WHICH, FOR THE RECORD, WAS JOE BIDEN, BUT ALSO, THE KIND OF MOOD THAT PEOPLE WERE FEELING ABOUT NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION, AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY STUCK WITH ME, IS THAT IF WE GET THIS TYPE OF REMATCH THAT NOBODY SEEMS TO WANT, WHAT IS THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS OF THAT?

>> HOST OF "THE RUNUP" PODCAST AND "NEW YORK TIMES" NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER ASTEAD HERNDON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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