>> Braude: ACCUSATIONS OF RACING BULLYING AND COVER UP ON THE DANVERS HIGH SCHOOL HOCKEY TEAM.

SCHOOL AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS TRIED TO BURY THE DETAILS FOR YEARS.

THREE TIME ALL STATE WRESTLING CHAMPION MAX LEETE AND DARTMOUTH INTERIM ATHLETICS DIRECTOR PETER ROBY AND LATER FORMER WHITE HOUSE RUSSIA EXPERT FIONA HILL JOINS HE, FAMOUSLY TESTIFIED IN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IMPEACHMENT TRIAL THE FIRST ONE, AND NOW IS OUT WITH A MEMOIR THAT SERVES AS A WARNING ABOUT WHERE THIS WASN'T MAY BE HEADED.

>> BRAUDE: PARENTS AND MEMBERS OF THE DANVERS COMMUNITY ARE CALLING ON THE SCHOOL'S SUPERINTENDENT TO STEP DOWN OVER HOW THEY HANDLED, OR PERHAPS MORE ACCURATELY, DIDN'T HANDLE, DISTURBING RACISM, HAZING, BULLYING, AND ASSAULT ACCUSATIONS AMONG MEMBERS OF THE VARSITY BOYS HOCKEY TEAM.

>> I DO NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE SUPERINTENDENT, NOR IN THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS LONG TERM INVESTIGATION.

EVERYBODY HERE IS JUST COVERING THEMSELVES.

BE HONORABLE AND RESIGN.

THIS IS EMBARRASSING.

>> BRAUDE: OVER THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF, THERE HAVE BEEN THREE SEPARATE, UNDISCLOSED INVESTIGATIONS INTO WHAT'S HAPPENED.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL THE "BOSTON GLOBE" PUBLISHED A STORY THIS PAST WEEKEND, BASED ON HEAVILY REDACTED SCHOOL REPORTS, THAT MOST PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY FOUND OUT ABOUT ANY OF THIS.

IT STARTED BACK IN JUNE OF LAST YEAR, WHEN THREE SENIORS ON THE TEAM WAVED A TRUMP 2020 FLAG, AND WERE ACCUSED OF SHOUTING RACIAL SLURS AT BLACK SANITATION WORKERS, WHICH THEY LATER DENIED.

BUT AS THE SCHOOL CONDUCTED INTERVIEWS WITH PLAYERS ABOUT THE INCIDENT, ONE TOLD THEM HE WAS ASSAULTED DURING WEEKLY LOCKER ROOM RITUALS.

HE TOLD SCHOOL OFFICIALS, POLICE, AND THE SPECIAL INVESTIGATOR THAT A PLAYER TOUCHED HIM INAPPROPRIATELY AFTER THE TEAM STRIPPED NAKED IN ANOTHER LOCKER ROOM RITUAL KNOWN AS "GAY TUESDAYS."

ON "HARD R FRIDAYS," TEAM MEMBERS ALLEGEDLY APPROACHED PLAYERS AND COMMANDED THEM TO SHOUT THE N-WORD.

R BEING THE FINAL LETTER.

THE ALLEGED VICTIM SAID HE HAD SEEN TEAMMATES WHO REFUSED TO OBEY BE HELD DOWN AND BEATEN WITH A PLASTIC SEX TOY CALLED "THE PINK DRAGON" UNTIL IT LEFT AN IMPRINT ON THEIR FACES, WHICH IS WHAT HE SAID HAPPENED TO HIM THAT JANUARY.

THE REPORTS NOTED AT LEAST ONE MEMBER OF THE TEAM'S COACHING STAFF WITNESSED ONE TO HAVE THE RITUALS AND IN A TEXT MESSAGE OBSERVE STAINED PI THE GLOBE WHICH MORE THAN HALF THE TEAM APPARENTLY PARTICIPATED, ONE TEXT MADE A CRASS JOKE ABOUT HOW JEWS WERE MURDERED DURING THE HOLOCAUST, WHILE NUMEROUS OTHERS INCLUDED VIDEOS MAKING LIGHT OF THE VIOLENT DEATHS OF BLACK PEOPLE, AND ONE MOCKED AN IMAGE OF A BLACK DANVERS HIGH STUDENT, SUGGESTING HE WAS BEING LYNCHED."

AS THE INVESTIGATIONS WENT ON, OFFICIALS PUT HEAD COACH STEVE BALDASSARE ON LEAVE IN JANUARY.

THEN THEY REINSTATED HIM IN FEBRUARY, BEFORE HE RESIGNED IN JULY.

HE'D ALSO BEEN THE SCHOOL'S RESOURCE OFFICER, AND IS STILL A SERGEANT ON THE POLICE FORCE, WORKING IN THE COMMUNITY RELATIONS/JUVENILE DIVISION.

BUT IT SEEMS THERE'S BEEN NO OTHER DISCIPLINARY MOVES, APART FROM SOME ADDITIONAL TRAINING FOR OTHER COACHES.

FOLLOWING THE GLOBE'S REPORT, ENDICOTT COLLEGE, WHERE THE TEAM HAD PRACTICED, BANNED DANVERS FROM USING ITS RINK.

BUT EVEN WORSE, DANVERS HIGH IS NOT ALONE.

# MANY MARCH DUCKS BREW FIRED ITS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH AFTER HIS PLAYERS USED ANTI-SEMITIC AND OTHER OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE ON THE FIELD.

AND IN SEPTEMBER, ROXBURY PREP COACHES SAID GEORGETOWN HIGH FOOTBALL PLAYERS SHOUTED RACIAL SLURS AT THEIR TEAM, AND THAT FACULTY AND STAFF JOINED IN.

I'M JOINED NOW BY A RECENT DANVERS GRAD WHO'S BEEN PUSHING FOR LARGER CONSEQUENCES, THREE-TIME ALL-STATE WRESTLING CHAMPION AND FORMER SCHOOL COMMITTEE STUDENT REP MAXIMILIAN LEETE, AND PETER ROBY, INTERIM DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS AND RECREATION AT DARTMOUTH COLLEGE, AND FORMER HEAD OF NORTHEASTERN'S CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF SPORT IN SOCIETY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

BEFORE WE STARTED TAPING, "THE GLOBE" REPORTED RACIST, HOMOPHOBIC AND ANTISEMITIC GRAFFITI WAS DISCOVERED IN A MIDDLE SCHOOL IN DANVERS.

PETER, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION NOT JUST TO DANVERS BUT WHAT SEEMS TO BE AN EPIDEMIC OF THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR IN MASSACHUSETTS HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S REALLY DISAPPOINTING, IT'S DISTURBING, IT'S -- THERE ARE SO MANY ADJECTIVES YOU COULD USE, JIM.

AND, SO, FOR ME, IT'S AN ISSUE OF WHY IS THIS HAPPENING, WHERE IS IT EMANATING FROM, AND WHAT ROLE ARE ADULTS PLAYING IN PROMOTING IT.

SO EACH OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF THESE THINGS ARE CHILDREN OF PARENTS, AND I'M WONDERING WHAT THE CONVERSATIONS ARE LIKE AT THE LIVING ROOM -- AT THE DINING ROOM TABLE, IN THE LIVING ROOM WATCHING TV, WATCHING THE NEWS, READING THE PAPERS, ARE THEY BEING ENCOURAGED TO FEEL THIS WAY?

ARE THEY JUST -- ARE THEY LEADING BY EXAMPLE AND INFLUENCING THE WAY THEIR KIDS THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS?

SO IT'S A REAL CONCERN FOR ME ABOUT THE ROLE THAT ADULTS ARE PLAYING IN THE LIVES OF YOUNG PEOPLE, NOT JUST THE COACHES AND ADULTS AT DANVERS HIGH SCHOOL, BUT THE PARENTS TO HAVE THE KIDS -- PARENTS OF THE KIDS WHO ARE ALLEGED TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS THIS THING.

>> Braude: YOU ARE QUOTED IN "THE GLOBE" SAYING FOR THE ADULTS THERE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY.

THERE'S BEEN NONE SO FAR, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?

>> AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE ADMINISTRATIVE LEVEL OR ANY OF THE COACHES THAT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE SITUATION.

FOR A LONG TIME, OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS IN A PATTERN, IN A CONSTANT REPETITION OF SWEEPING UNDER THE RUG, PER SE, AND LEADING THEM TO CONTINUE TO COVER AND COACHES' SAKE WHO HAVE BEEN A PART OF THIS CULTURE.

>> Braude: MAXIMILIAN, WHEN YOU HEAR THE COACHES SAY THAT THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THIS, AS SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN AT THAT SCHOOL INVOLVED IN THE ATHLETIC COMMUNITY THERE, DOES THAT RING TRUE TO YOU?

>> UM, NO, IT ACTUALLY -- QUITE THE OPEN IT RINGS TRUE TO ME BECAUSE, AS BEING AN ATHLETE, A PAST ATHLETE OF DANVERS PUBLIC SCHOOL FOR QUITE SOME TIME, ONCE PARENTS AND LEGAL GUARDIANS DROP OFF THEIR KIDS INTO DANVERS SPORTS AND INTO ANY SPORTS DISTRICT IN A PUBLIC EDUCATION SCHOOL, THEY SHOULD HAVE FULL CERTAINTY THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF BY THE ADULTS AND THEIR COACHES IN CHARGE, AND THAT HAS BEEN TRUE FOR ME PERSONALLY, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

SO IT WAS QUITE DISTURBING, HONESTLY, TO HEAR THAT THE COACHES HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON TO SOMETHING TO A DEGREE THAT HAS CREATED AN ENTIRE CULTURE.

>> Braude: DO YOU BELIEVE THEM, MAXIMILIAN, THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING?

>> NO, I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER EXCUSE BY OUR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION TO COVER UP A CERTAIN INCIDENT, COVER PEOPLE'S JOBS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET A BAD REPUTATION.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE -- AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE -- THAT THE ADULTS ARE VERY INVOLVED, AND FOR THE ADMINISTRATION, THE COACH ALSO, THE ATHLETIC DIRECTOR TO SAY THAT THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, I THINK IT'S QUITE PROPOSTOUS.

I FIND IT REALLY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE ADULTS DIDN'T KNOW.

>> Braude: PETER, THE REALITY AS A COACH'S RESPONSIBILITY, YOU HAVE BEEN ONE, YOU'VE SUPERVISED THEM.

THEIR RESPONSIBILITY DOESN'T END ON THE PLAYING FIELD.

IF SOME DIDN'T KNOW THEY SHOULD HAVE BECAUSE THE LOCKER ROOM IS AS MUCH THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TAS THE PLAYING FIELD, IS IT NOT?

>> SURE IT IS, AND THEY'RE SETTING THE TONE FOR WHAT THEIR EXPECTATIONS ARE IN THE LOCKER ROOM AND OFF THE ICE.

THEY'RE CREATING A CULTURE ON THEIR TEAM BASED ON THE VALUES THEY ESPOUSED AND I'M SURE THERE ARE OTHER INCIDENTS THAT SUGGESTED THERE WAS A CULTURAL ISSUE THAT THE COACHES HAD TO ADDRESS AND THE FIRST TIME THEY SAW EVIDENCE OF THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE ADDRESSED AND CONTINUED TO ADDRESS IT SO IT SENT A MESSAGE THAT NONE OF THAT WAS GOING TO BE TOLERATED, PLUS IT WOULD HAVEwnK BEEN A MESSAGE WERE VICTIMIZED TO FEEL LIKE THEY COULD COME FORWARD AND THE TELL THE COACH WHAT YOU SAID HAPPENING ON THE TEAM IS NOT HAPPENING AND I HOPE YOU WILLED ADDRESS IT.

>> Braude: PETER, YOU DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT PROBLEMS, YOU'RE A PROBLEM SOLVER.

BUT WHEN YOU HAVE SO MANY OF THE ADULTS IN DENIAL -- IN FACT, LET ME PLAY YOU SOUND FROM THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE SECRETARY, NAME IS ARTHUR SCARMISE.

>> IF YOU THINK THAT WE HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.

OR, AS SOME PEOPLE IN HERE LIKE TO SAY, 'SWEPT IT UNDER THE RUG,' THAT'S A BUNCH OF CRAP.

WE'RE DEALING WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO OCCASIONALLY SLIP UP AND DO SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULDN'T DO.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE DO THE BEST WE CAN.

YOU KNOW, THE FUNNY THING IS, THE GLOBE WRITES A STORY, FROM A PERSPECTIVE, NOW THE GLOBE WANTSlp TO SELL PAPERS.

WE CARE ABOUT THE KIDS.

THE GLOBE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE KIDS, IT WANTS TO SELL PAPERS.

>> Braude: THAT'S ABOUT AS CHEAP AS IT GETS IN MY ESTIMATION, PETER ROBY.

WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN A LEADER LIKE THAT IS, AGAIN, IN TOTAL DEFENSIVE DENIAL?

HOW DO YOU PIERCE THAT?

>> WELL, YOU VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE, YOU KNOW, YOU EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT, AND YOU DEMAND THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE POTENTIALLY IS TO PROTECT THE IDENTITIES OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED, BUT LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW THAT SOMETHING REALLY A GREIGES HAS HAPPENED AND WE'RE ADDRESSING IT AND IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO DEMAND OUR COACHES BE INVOLVED IN WHAT GOES ON IN THE LOCKER ROOMS THAT THEY ARE SENDING THE RIGHT MESSAGE ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT THEIR CULTURE TO BE, AND THE ATHLETES HAVE AN EXPECTATION THAT IF THEY DON'T LIVE UP TO THE EXPECTATION AND THEY DON'T GET THE PRIVILEGE OF REPRESENTING THE SCHOOL AND THE DISTRICT ON THE ATHLETIC FIELDS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, MAXIMILIAN, I'M ASSUMING -- WELL, I SHOULDN'T ASSUME ANYTHING, I SHOULD ASK.

WITHIN THE SCHOOL COMMUNITY, DO YOU PEOPLE KNOW, DID YOU AND YOUR FELLOW STUDENTS WHO WERE NOT ON THE HOCKEY TEAM KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON OR AT LEAST HEAR STORIES ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE GOING ON IN THE LOCKER ROOM?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

FOR ANC] WHILE, THE STUDENTe1 BODY WAS DEFINITELY IN AN OBLIVIOUS STATE, BUT THE CULTURE THAT THEY CREATED WITHIN THEMSELVES DEFINITELY RANG THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE STUDENT BODY.

THERE WAS LIKE THIS LEVEL OF INFALLIBILITY THAT THIS SPECIFIC SPORT HAD THAT I THINK IT'S SPECIFICALLY DANGEROUS FOR HIGH SCHOOL BOYS, ESPECIALLY WHITE BOYS, TO HAVE A LEVEL OF INFALLIBILITY WHERE THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT.

ESPECIALLY I THINK THE SYSTEM BEARS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE RULES ARE NOT CONSISTENT AND THE RULES HAVE BEEN TAINTED AND LEVERAGED FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE TO SUCCEED AND GET AWAY WITH THINGS.

BUT I WOULD SAY THE SCHOOL FOUND OUT ABOUT THE INTENSITY OF THE CULTURE WHEN IT CAME TO THE PARADE THAT WAS IN THE ARTICLE, AND WHEN KIDS ON PAST HOCKEY TEAMS AND KIDS WHO WERE AROUND THESE CIRCLES BEGANW: COME FORWARD.

>> Braude: I HAVE A MINUTE OR TWO LEFT.

PETER, BASED ON YOUR LIFE OF EXPERIENCE HERE, WE HAVE A GUY CALL OUR RADIO SHOW TODAY.

HE IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS A BLACK KID AND TALKED ABOUT GOING TO A SUBURBAN SCHOOL.

HE WAS AN ATHLETE, HAD BEEN AN ATHLETE AND HE SAID THE RACISM THERE AROUND THE SPORTS COMMUNITY WAS NOT AS OVERT AS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN DANVERS, BUT IT WAS SUBTLE, AND HE FELT IT.

AND I SAID, WHAT DID THAT FEEL#; SR)Q AND HE SAID, FRANKLY, I'LL BE FEELING IT FOR MY WHOLE LIFE.

IS THAT HYPERBOLE, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, OR IS THIS KIND OF TOXIC BEHAVIOR AS LONG-LASTING AND AS INTRUSIVE AND AS AS HE MADE8 >> OF COURSE, IT'S PAINFUL AND INTRUSIVE AND IT'S LONG-LASTING AND IT DOESN'T STOP WHEN YOU UyDd IT CONTINUES WHEN YOU GO TO FIND A JOB,ñr IT CONTINUES WHEN YOU TRY TO APPLY FOR A MORTGAGE, IT CONTINUES WHEN YOU TRY TO MOVE INTO A CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOOD, IT APPLIES TO THE ISSUES AROUND DISPARITIES IN HEALTHCARE, IT APPLIES TO THE ISSUES AROUND VOTING RIGHTS.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NAIVE IF WE THINK THIS IS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.

THESE ARE THE ISSUES IN OUR$ ON A DAILY BASIS, AND, SO, WE ALL HAVE TO WAKE UP AND UNDERSTAND THAT ROLE TO PLAY IN TRYING TO ELIMINATE THESE ISSUES THAT ARE KEEPING PEOPLE FROM UNDERREPRESENTED COMMUNITIES FROM HAVING AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO THE AMERICAN DREAM.

AND, SO, IT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN MORE OVERT WAYS WITH ISSUES AROUND RACISM AND HOMOPHOBIC SLURS AND USING THE N WORD, BUT IT'S MUCH MORE INSIDIOUS THAN THAT AND MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN WHAT WE'RE SEEING PLAYING OUT IN DANVERS.

>> Braude: MAXIMILIAN DO YOU WANT TO REFLECT ON WHAT PETER HAD TOç SAY?

>> I AGREE WITH WHAT PETER SAID.

!f7"d REPUTATION OF THE SINISTER BEHAVIOR IN THE UNDERVALLEYS AND UNDERTONES IN SCHOOL CULTURES AND MOVING FORWARD IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT HOW OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS RESPOND TO THE ALLEGATIONS IN ORDER TO BUILD A MORE PRODUCTIVE FUTURE.

>> Braude: MAXIMILIAN.

I WISH YOU A LOT OF LUCK.

YOU'LL'RE OFF TO A GOOD START.

PETER, WONDERFUL TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS.

THANK YOU BOTH, GENTLEMEN.

>> Braude: MY NEXT GUEST WENT FROM BEHIND-THE-SCENES WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR TO HOUSEHOLD NAME IN A SINGLE DAY, AFTER SHE TESTIFIED AT THEN-PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IMPEACHMENT HEARING, THE FIRST ONE THAT IS, ABOUT WHAT SHE KNEW OF RUSSIA'S INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONND >> SOME OF YOU ON THIS COMMITTEE APPEAR TO BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA AND ITS SECURITY SERVICES DID NOT CONDUCT A CAMPAIGN AGAINSTñ&r OUR COUNTRY, ND THAT PERHAPS, SOMEHOW, FOR SOME REASON, UKRAINE DID.

THIS IS A FICTIONAL NARRATIVE THAT HAS BEEN PERPETRATED AND PROPAGATED BY THE RUSSIAN SECURITY SERVICES THEMSELVES.Ko <9ü FIONA HILL IS A HIGHLY RESPECTED RUSSIA EXPERT, AND, IN FACT, CO-WROTE A 500-PLUS-PAGE BOOK ON VLADAMIR PUTIN.

SINCE THAT TESTIMONY, SHE'S CONTINUED TO SPEAK OUT, WARNING OF WHERE THE NATION IS HEADED, INCLUDING IN HER NEW MEMOIR: "THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU HERE:e1 FINDING OPPORTUNITY IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

"ee THE TITLE IS TAKEN FROM ADVICE HILL'S COAL-MINER FATHER GAVE, HOME IN NORTHERN ENGLAND AND PURSUE OPPORTUNITIES IN AMERICA ADVICE SHE MOST CERTAINLY Q FIONA HILL IS A FORMER WHITEKi[ñ HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBER AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST, SHE'S SERVED THREE PRESIDENTS, AND SHE'S NOW A SENIOR FELLOW OF THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION.

FIONA HILL, GREAT TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR@ettMYD HERE.

>> WELL, THANKS, JIM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

SO, AS I MENTIONED, YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT PUTIN, YOU SERVED UNDER TRUMP.

COULD YOU COMPARE THE TWO MEN FOR US.

>> WELL, THERE ARE A FEW POINTS OF COMPARISON.

THERE'S THE SERIOUSÑi SIDE OF THINGS.

BOTH PUTIN AND A VERY STRONGw3 PRESIDENCY.

YOUr PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TALKING ABOUT HIS IDEA OF A PRESIDENCY, THE FAMOUS INTERVIEW HE GAVE NOT SO LONG AGO WITH39' BOB WOODWARD IN PREPARATION FOR THE BOOKS HE WAS WRITING WHERE HE SAYS HE LIKES THE STRONG MAN.

HE LEADERS BEEN STRONG AND POWERFUL AND IN THAT REGARD THAT'S THE13 ALSO, THEY'VE GOT A VERY MUCH DIRECT RELATIONSHIP IN THEIR VIEWPOINT BETWEEN THE PEOPLE AND THE PRESIDENT, WITH NOT MUCH MEDIATION ON THE PART OF POLITICAL PARTIES OR OTHER REPRESENTATION.

BUT THERE'S A COUPLE OF POINTS WHERE THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT.

PUTIN IS IRONICALLY MUCH MORE OF A UNIFIER.

PUTIN LEAVES BELIEVES IN THE POWER OF THE RUSSIAN STATE, HE RULES AND GOVERNS THROUGH THE STATE.

HEçó WANTS TO HAVE THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE GROUP OF PEOPLE SUPPORTING HIM, WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS FOCUSED ON DIVISION, PLAYING TO HIS OWN BASE, AND NOT TO A LARGER MAJORITYK÷ STATE ANDfá PRETTY MUCH RUN THE COUNTRY OUT OF THE OVAL OFFICE AND FROM THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.

>> Braude: I THINK YOU USED THE EXPRESSION THAT TRUMP HAD AUTOCRAT ENVY, WHICH I LOVE THE EXPRESSION.

IHáHOUGHT IT< WAS PERFECT.

YOU ALSO TELL A TA PLACES, YOU GREW UP, THEt( RUSSIA AT THE TIME THAT WAS TAKEN OVER BY VLADIMIR PUTIN, AND AMERICA AT THEmJy TIME OFlp TRUMP'S ASCENDANCY.

WHAT'S THE COMMON THREAT, PHI OWNA, THAT YOU -- FIONA THAT YOU WEAV >> THE COMMON HOW I FIRST IMAGINED THE UNITEDó[iO STATES WHEN I CAME TO BOSTON ANDGopp SAW IN THE UNITEDW STATES THERE WAS THE BEGINNINGS ANDnb!3Ep STIRRINGS I'D SEEN IN THE NORTHEAST OF ENGLAND.

Ikt HEARTLAND OF, THE MOTOR OF THE!7 INVENTING PASSENGER RAILWAYS, IRON AND STEEL CONVERSION, IT WAS THE PLACE OF COAL MINUS, THEW?"

OF THE BIGCk: COAL MINING A2N#z9ñ Iú BYYjI THE: '80s, THAT'S CLOSING TOWN.

A LOT IS POLICY FROM THE GOVERNMENT, THE OTHER IS IT'S NO LONGER COMPETITIVE.

I BASICALLY SEE THE SAME SORT OF THINGS HAPPENING WHEN I GET TO BOSTON AND MASSACHUSETTS IN 1989 AND THE UNITED STATES,xD BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I SPENT A YEAR IN THE SOVIET UNION IN 1997 AND '98 AS A STUDENT AND I SEE THE SOVIET UNION FALLING APART.

THE SAME PRODUCT IN THE ECONOMY, THE ECONOMY GRINDING TO A HALT, NOTHING IN THE SHOPS.

WORKERS IN BLUE CAR INDUSTRIES WHO ARE BAREñr BUSINESSES, NO LONGER COMPETITIVE.

IN THE 1990s, WHEN I START TO STUDY IS IT RUSSIA AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION, IN MY ACADEMIC AND ANALYTICAL WORK, I SEE EVERYBODY THERE START TO LOSE THEIR JOBS AS WELL AS A MUST PRIORITIZATION OF THE HEAVY INDUSTRIES, AND THE SAME PHENOMENON OFko DEINDUSTRIALIZATION, PEOPLE LOSING JOBS, LOSING LIVELIHOODS, THEIR IDENTITIES AND DISLOCATION, I SEE IN ALL THREE PLACES BUT IN DIFFERENT TIME SEQUENCES.

IT'S OUT OF THAT ENVIRONMENT THE SOCIOECONOMIC DISLOCATION, PEOPLE'S FEELING THEY'VE LOST THEIR CULTURAL AND PERSONAL IDENTITY AS WELL THAT YOU SEE POPULAR RISE IN ALL THREE COUNTRIES.

>> Braude: THE CAUTIONARY TALE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND ITS LEADERS?

>> WELL, THE CAUTIONARY TALE COMES OUT OF RUSSIA WHICH IN THE BOOK I DESCRIBE AS THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS FUTU REMEMBER IN CHARLES DICKENS A CHRISTMAS CAROL, THE GHOST IS SOMETHING EBENEEZER SCROOGE CONJURES UP.

HE WORRIES ABOUT WHAT WILLi] HAPPEN IN THE DREADFUL NIGHTMARE ON THE EVE OFw3 CHRISTMAS.

RUSSIA WENT THROUGH A PERIOD IN THE 1990s OF EXPERIMENTATION WITH DEMOCRACY.

IN THE LATE 1980s UNDER GORBACHEV, THEY THOUGHT THEY'D OPEN UP THE SYSTEM TO PLURALIZE IT TO COMMIT THE ECONOMY AND POLITICS ON A DIFFERENT SETTING, GETTING INDEPENDENT PARTIES NOT JUST THE COMMUNIST PARTY AND OPEN IT UP.

BUT PEOPLE ARE DISILLUSIONED BECAUSE THE NEW SYSTEM DELIVERS NOTHING BY UNEMPLOYMENT, DISLOCATION, POVERTY, MASS YOU'RE INEQUALITY AND A LOT OF CORRUPTION BECAUSE YOU GET A GROUP OF OLIGARCHS, PEOPLE WHO CASH IN ON RUSSIAN INDUSTRY AND BECOME RICH.

RUSSIA WAS SOME OF THE LARGEST WITH BILLIONAIRES.

TO THINK ABOUT 20, 30 YEARS AGO WHEN THEY HAD NONE.

PEOPLE STARTM DEMOCRATIZATION WITH US AND THROW ASIDE A LOT OF THE FREEDOMS THEY ENJOYED AND ARE READY TO BASICALLY SUPPORT A STRONG MAN LEADER IN THE FORM OF VLADIMIR PUTIN WHO SAID HE WOULD FIX THIS BUT ROLLS BACK THE DEMOCRATIC GAINS.

THAT'S THE RISK WE SEE IN OTHERñr COUNTRIES, POPULARRISM RISES ON THE BACKS OF GRIEVANCES AND PEOPLE TURN AWAY FROM DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE SYSTEM ISN'T DELIVERING AND WANT A STRONG MAN TO FIX THINGS FOR THEM.

>> Braude: ENTER DONALD TRUMP.

DOES A YEAR OF JOE BIDEN SUGGEST TO YOU HE GETS IT, MEANING DOES HE UNDERSTAND THAT THREAT?

>> I THINK JOE BIDEN HIMSELF GETS IT.

HE'S BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME.

THIS IS A PERSON WHO HAS SEEN THE UPS AND DOWNS NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES BUT INTERNATIONALLY.

HE WAS VERY WELL VERSED OF WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN EUROPE AND RUSSIA.

BUT I'M NOT SURE EVERYBODY ELSE AROUND HIM GETS IT.

IT'S HARD FOR SOMEBODY TO ENVISION THIS COULD HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES.

I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT JANUARY 6th AND THE STORMING OF THEP SEE THE RISKS.

THE PEOPLETó THEY WERE PATRIOTS, HAD GRIEVOUS, MANY SAW THEMSELVES AS5a THE VICTIMS OF DEMOCRATIC, POLITICAL, SOCIOECONOMICLE CHANGE, BUT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF THE OTHER PEOPLEDX$P)E NOT WAKING UP TO THE RISKS WE FACE HERE.

I THINK BIDEN'S PROBLEM IS GETTING HIS PARTY AND EVERYBODY ELSE AROUND HIM IN THE PURSUIT OF WE'VE GOT THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL PASS BUD THESE OTHER BILLS THAT HE'S TRYING TOçó PUTL BUILD BACK BETTER, TO TRY TO TACKLE THE SOCIOECONOMIC ISSUES THAT HAVE FESTERED FOR DECADES IN UNITED STATES, NOT JUST FIXING ROADS BUT OTHER PARTS TO HAVE THE SYSTEM THAT ARE NOT DELIVERING FOR PEOPLE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THERE'S A PIECE IN YOUR BOOK WHERE YOU'RE SITTING IN THE BACK TO HAVE THE ROOM AFTER YOU'VE STARRED WORKING FOR DONALD TRUMP, I'LL NEVER FORGET THIS SCENE, HOW DOES DONALD TRUMP WHO APPARENTLY HAS NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE A TOP ADVISOR ON CRITICAL PARTS TO HAVE THE WORLD, HE APPEARS TO THINK YOU'RE AN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, HOW DOES HE REFER TO YOU, FIONA, HILL.

>> HE SAYS, HEY, DARLING, ARE YOU LISTENING?

BECAUSE I WASN'T AWARE HE WAS TALKING TO ME AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT.

IT WAS ONE TO HAVE THE WORST MOMENTS ON THE JOB MOMENT THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE THAT THIS WAS NOT A GOOD PROFESSIONAL MOMENT BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

>> Braude: WAS EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE ROOM MEN AT THE TIME?

>> NO, TWO OTHER IVANKA, AND I FIGURED HE WASN'T REFERRING TO HER AND THE OTHER WAS ADVISOR TO CHIEF OF STAFF SECRETARY TILLERSON AND SHE WAS SITTING OUT OF HIS SIGHT LINE AND I KNEW IT WASN'T HER EITHER.

AT FIRST HE WAS ASKING IF SHE COULD WRITE SOMETHING UP.

IT WASN'T FOCUSED BECAUSE I WAS BUSY TAKING NOTES FROM A PHONEG CALL FROM PRESIDENT PUTIN.

I DIDN'T REALS THE PRESIDENT WANTED ME TO GO AND REWRITE THE PRESS RELEASE FROM THE CALL.

AND IN ANOTHER MOMENT I WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW,B.

REACTED DIFFERENTLY, BUT IT'S ONLY WHEN HE SAID, HEY, DARYL, ARE YOU LISTENING, THAT I THOUGHT, OOOH, THAT MOMENT, HE DOES MEAN ME AND I SORT OF SIT UP AND THEN IT'S ALL TIRR IN THE HEAD LIGHTS,D MY GOODNESS, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BE DOING?

HE THINKS I'M THE SECRETARY.

NOBODY HELPS ME OUT.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE GOD-AWFUL MOMENTS Wá JOB.

>> Braude: THAT WAS MY TAKE THAT NOBODY HELPED YOU OUT.

>> NO, THEY DIDN'T SAY, OH, PRESIDENT TRUMP, THIS IS FIONA HILL, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

BUT, SURE, I COULDN'T GO AND FIGURE IT OUT.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ONLY A COUPLE OF WEEKS INTO THE JOB.

I HAD NO IDEA AT THIS POINT WHAT WAS GOING ON BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF THINGS WERE WINGING IT, YOU KNOW, SEAT OF THE PANTS BECAUSE PEOPLE WALKED ON EGG SHELLS AROUND HIM.

THAT WAS APPARENT FROM MY FIRST DAY.

AND THE POSITION NOBODY WANTED TO CHALLENGE HIM.

HE CLEARLY THOUGHT EVERYBODY IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WAS A SECRETARY AND EVEN TOOK THE TITLE SECRETARY OF STATE5) DEFENSE LITERALLY, YOU KNOW, WE WERE ALL THE STAFF ANDY!ç÷ WOMEN ABSOLUTELY SO.

>> Braude: OH, MY GOD.

EVEN THE MEN IF THEY RECORD TO HIM THE SAME KIND OF THING.

>> Braude: WHAT WOULD TRUMP 2.0 DO LIKE, THAT'S A MOSTDA MUSE--- NOSTRADAMUS TYPE QUESTION.

>> THIS HAS NOT GOT TO DO WITHçoI POLICY AND÷ñ IDEOLOGY, BUT< THE KIND OF PERSON I SAW HIM TO BE, UNFORTUNATELY, SOMEONE WHO'S VERY FOCUSED ON THEMSELVES, THEIR OWN PRIVATE PERSONAL POSITION.

HE WOULD CERTAINLY WANT TO HAVE REVENGE ON ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO HE SEES AS DEEP STATE COUP, THE PEOPLE WHO SERVE IN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND PERFORM PUBLIC SERVICE TO HAVE THEM PUNISHED FOR MAINTAINING THE CONSTITUTION, AND THE INSTITUTIONS ALL THE PEOPLE WHO -- YOU KNOW, THE TECHNOLOGY DODGE AND ALL ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT ON AND AROUND JANUARY 6th TO TRANSFER POWER PEACEFULLY FROM ONE PRESIDENT TO THE NEXT, I CERTAINLY ANTICIPATE HIM HOLLOWING OUT GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS EVENgi"ñ FURTHER.

ALSO, I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE IF HE COULD EXTEND HIS TERMS IN OFFICE.

I THINK HE WOULD BE VERY LIKELY TO SAY, LOOK, YOU KNOW, I w CHEATED THE LAST TIME, IRVED STILL HAVE BEEN IN OFFICE, I DESERVE TWO MORE TERMS.

AND, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S THE CASE.

HE'S VERY MUCH FOCUSED UNFORTUNATELY ON HIMSELF AND THIS IS A VERY PERSONALIZED PRESIDENCY THAT TIME, AND WE'VE NOW SEEN THE HALLMARKS OF A PERSONALITY CULT FORMING AROUND HIM THAT WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER PLACES.

THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF USUAL PRESIDENCY OR KIND OF EXECUTIVE POLITICS THAT WE SEE IN THE UNITED STATES BUT IT'S THE TURN THAT WE'VE SUDDENLY TAKEN.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE LEAVE, BEFORE WE STARTED THIS INTERVIEW, YOU MENTIONED -- WELL IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE A PART-TIME RESTAURANT REVIEWER.

WE HAVE BEENÑi TO THE S&S DELI IN INMAN SQUARE.

COULD YOU GIVE ME A QUICK REVIEW.

>> BACK IN THE DAY WHEN I WAS THERE, THIS WAS THE PLACE TO BE FOR SUNDAY BRUNCH, I THINK PRETTY MUCH EVERY WEEK WENT THERE FOR SUNDAY BRUNCH.

I'M DELIGHTED TO HEAR IT'S STILL THERE.

IN MANY CITIES, YOU HAVE THE REVAMPING OF% NEIGHBORHOODS, AND IT WAS PART OF THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

I PERSONALLY LOVED IT.

I'M DELIGHTED 3B+y IS STILL THERE.

>> Braude: S&S WOULD SURVIVE A NUCLEAR ATTACK ON3h-÷ CAME BRIDGE.

>> I HOPE SO.

I NEED SOMEWHERE TO GO AND EAT.

>> Braude: YOUR BOOK IS TERRIFIC, REALLY IMPORTANT READ.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR=SI TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS, JIM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: d>BOOK AGAIN IS "THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU HERE: FINDING OPPORTUNITY IN THE 21ST CENTURY."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

I'LL TALK TO THE NPR REPORTER THAT GOT A HOLD OF SECRET RECORDINGS OF N.R.A.

MEETINGS HELD AFTER THE 1999 COLUMBINE SHOOTING, IN WHICH THEY ARGUED OVER OPTICS AND CONCERNS THEY WOULD "LOSE FACE," WHILE A DOZEN FAMILIES WERE BURYING THEIRN CHILDREN.w THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.é@ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org