(gentle music) - [Narrator] The National Transportation Safety Board issued its preliminary report on the East Palestine train derailment, and its chairperson says there's no room for politics, thousands of aquatic creatures died as a result of the chemicals released in the derailment according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, and a state lawmaker removes an amendment that would've blocked a bike lane project in Cleveland.

"Ideas" is next.

(bright music) Hello and welcome to "Ideas."

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thanks for joining us.

The National Transportation Safety Board yesterday said a dangerously overheated wheel bearing triggered an alarm, alerting the engineer to hit the brakes on that Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine.

The NTSB will hold a rare field hearing in East Palestine this spring.

The Ohio Department of Natural Resources this week said thousands of small fish were killed as a result of chemicals released in the derailment.

The ecosystem in East Palestine though is rebounding.

Experts at a town hall meeting last night warned residents to be wary though of possible dioxin, a nasty carcinogen, in their soil.

A transportation budget proposal that would've wiped out a planned bike lane project in Cleveland has been dropped, and Secretary of State Frank LaRose removed more than 120,000 inactive voters from the state's election roles.

Joining me to discuss these stories and other news this week, Ideastream Public Media Deputy Editor for Engaged Journalism, Stephanie Czekalinski, and General Assignment Reporter, Gabriel Kramer, in Columbus, State House News Bureau Chief, Karen Kasler.

Let's get ready to round table.

The National Transportation Safety Board issued a preliminary report on the East Palestine derailment focusing on an overheated wheel bearing on the Norfolk Southern train.

It said the derailment was 100% preventable.

The ongoing concerns about long-term health and environmental effects of the derailment, as well as criticism over the government response, became more politicized this week.

Former President Trump visited the site and blamed the Biden administration.

The White House, in turn, says the loosening of rail safety measures under Trump caused the disaster.

Biden caught flack for not visiting the site.

His environmental protection agency director was there for a while, and also, so was Pete Buttigieg, the transportation secretary, who threw shade on Trump as well.

Later, NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy was having none of it.

- This is not a time for politics.

There is a time for politics.

It is not this.

This is a tragedy that communities are suffering, not just physically, not just damage, but also mentally.

We never talk about that.

That's significant.

Now is the time to talk about potential solutions that would really address this tragedy, and folks need to allow the NTSB to lead this investigation and to highlight the right solutions, not to go after the ones that would do nothing to prevent this from reoccurring.

- The EPA ordered Norfolk Southern to handle all aspects of the cleanup, including removal and disposal of the contaminated soil and water from the area, and if they don't do it and do it right, the EPA will step in and charge them triple to do it.

Alright, we've got a lot to talk about, including all of that, as well as health clinics that have been opened up in East Palestine.

Stephanie, let's start with Homendy.

She had no patience for the politics.

- No, and I think what she said yesterday during a press conference was really the thing that people of East Palestine have been telling us that they want to hear.

They have questions, they want information, they want transparency, they want information that they can trust and that they can believe, and I think that they are just getting a sinking feeling that, you know, they're being used as pawns in a broader discussion that doesn't include addressing their real concerns and they're suffering, quite frankly.

- Yeah, if we're talking to people saying, well, you're here but the other guy isn't here, but then the other guy was here, and the reason he's here is because he's trying to do this and he's running for that, that's really not talking about the issues that these people are enduring.

- We're talking to people, for a story that's coming out next week, about just being concerned when you turn on your tap.

We are talking to people who are filling cracks in the sides of their homes with, you know, that spray foam to make sure that, you know, the chemicals don't come in.

I mean, there's a high level of anxiety here, and when you're talking about, you know, when you're talking about who's on scene like it's some kind of, like, prom or something, I think people are getting extremely frustrated by that.

- I was working with Zaria Johnson last night, one of our reporters, and she had been monitoring a town hall session that was organized by a grassroots organization there, it had some experts on the environment and medical issues, et cetera, and, you know, they were saying, while there is clear testing now and folks are telling you that the water is fine and the air is fine, the soil is good, the fact that these chemicals burned, including the ones that weren't the controlled burn because the cars themselves also had caught on fire, dioxin is an issue that you should be having your soil independently tested, that, you know, so folks are hearing one thing from the government and then there's also these experts saying, hold on a second, dioxin is long-lasting and nasty and it's something you might wanna check your soil for.

To your point, people are then, you know, sealing up cracks 'cause they're like, well, I don't know what's going on in my yard.

- Absolutely, and I think the other issue too is that you don't know necessarily who you can trust to even do this testing or, you know, who is appropriate and what you're going to need that testing for in the future.

It's not just about determining whether or not you're being exposed currently, if your kids can play safely in the yard.

It's about, you know, like, your future financial health for a lot of people and they're very concerned.

We talk to people who are worried about the values of their homes.

Are they ever gonna be able to sell or is this, you know, something they're stuck in with a valueless asset that they've been investing in for years?

- Yeah, I can't see that as being the number one selling point in the real estate ad.

- No, I don't think so.

- Gabe, the Ohio Department of Natural Resources also talked yesterday about what's going on with the environment and said that, in the immediate aftermath of the derailment, there was a pretty decent-sized fish kill.

There were somewhere around 40,000 fish, mostly minnows, that went belly up, but then said, you know, things are getting better.

- Right, and I think from the point of view of residents there, it's hard to kind of have a lot of confidence in that, right?

Because while they say, you know, long-term things should be okay, there's a lot of information that they don't really have yet and it's scary, especially at first when, you know, you're being told by the governor to, you know, just drink bottled water for now, and when no information really about what's happening to the water now and, you know, there's gonna be weekly tests done to the water supply and the sewage system in East Palestine, and I think, until we get to that point, people and residents won't really have a lot of confidence that's going on until there's definitive information because, you know, you can tell me, don't worry.

Things will be okay.

I'm still going to be worried until things really are okay.

- There have been some folks who have had some symptoms as well and for them, the Ohio Department of Health has opened a clinic in East Palestine.

Almost immediately, the scope of the clinic's role expanded, Stephanie.

- Yeah, initially they were, they set up this clinic to, like, help people navigate the health system, and that's not really what people in East Palestine were looking for.

Now, they're going to have people on board who can, like, check your vital signs and you can be seen by a physician.

They're coordinating with the Columbiana County Health Department, the Ohio Department of Health, and then doctors from the East Liverpool Hospital, but DeWine had to announce this change after residents started, you know, really insisting that they were, you know, they were concerned about rashes, they're concerned about, you know, respiratory symptoms, they have headaches and sore throats and things, and so, you know, that change sort of came about after the clinics were initially announced.

- Karen, what about that?

- Well, I think there were some concerns.

First of all, the clinic was booked solid, so there obviously is some concern from people in the area about what's been happening though this clinic was set up for people who do not have health insurance, so you can imagine that maybe some people did book appointments because they'd like to see a doctor and they don't have health insurance, but also, there were some questions raised about what was not being offered at the clinic.

For instance, no prescriptions, no blood or urine testing, at least that's what it was said early on, that it was just an opportunity to have those vital signs monitored and then to talk to some experts, especially mental health counselors.

So I think, as this ramps up, some of these things could change, but certainly, residents who are concerned right now are frustrated that they feel like their concerns aren't being heard and that is, I think, fueling the politicization that we were just talking about, and the politicization is coming from the Left and the Right.

I mean, you've got Donald Trump Jr tweeting about this along with former state senator Nina Turner, who could not be more politically opposite, and so all of this attention and all of this political attention is just crashing in on this community.

- [Mike] Absolutely.

Steph.

- Yeah, we talked to a resident out there.

We asked her, you know, are you gonna go to this?

And she said, "No, they're not doing toxicology testing and that's really what I'm looking for."

Now, you know, there is a toxicologist who's apparently available for consultation, but that's really what she was looking for.

You know, have I been exposed to these chemicals, what chemicals have I been exposed to, and what do I do now?

- So, there's a lot of discussion then, Karen, about better rail safety and more legislation and regulation, something Pete Buttigieg has been talking about as the transportation secretary, but then there's also an issue about whether the state of Ohio could do something as well and what kind of a role that would play given that the railroad network is national.

- Yeah, and this came up in the House Finance Committee this week because the transportation budget is being heard there, and there were some changes in the state transportation budget specifically designed to go after some of these regulations, for instance, a requirement that rail crews be made up of two people, which is the standard right now, but this would be a requirement in state law to make that forever, and then also a requirement that these wayside detection systems are updated, they are operating, all of this kind of stuff, but then when the railroad companies sent their lobbyist in, he said, "Hey, this is not an issue for the state to regulate.

This is federal government stuff.

This is Congress stuff," and so he pushed back on that saying it would be unconstitutional for you to pass something that would say, require us to have a two-person crew, even though that is the standard right now, and even Senate President Matt Huffman has said, "This is interstate commerce.

We in Ohio can't really do anything about this when it comes to passing regulations," but he also said that next week, he plans to have a public hearing and have state officials, and including the EPA director and other people, to come in and talk a little bit about what happened in East Palestine.

Of course, the idea of more regulations on trains may not be able to come up because the question is, can you pass a regulation in Ohio that is not a regulation in Pennsylvania?

How do you make that work?

- Certainly hearing politicians, you know, going by the book and determining who can and who cannot make whatever decisions in terms of law goes, it still doesn't bode well for the confidence of residents because they still wanna see action.

So, whether their politicians are trying to pass the buck or trying to take responsibility, you know, they want responsibility taken, and I think, you know, this just ties into what we talked about earlier of it being political.

- Claudia and Kent sends us an email and says that she doesn't have patience for the criticism of the president or the transportation secretary not being there immediately, saying, you know, there was an emergency response underway, and when they arrived, when Buttigieg arrived is when he should have, and she says further, and I'm quoting now, "These criticisms direct the conversation away from the real problems created by lawmakers stubbornly resistant to legislation, adequate legislating, adequate regulation of railway operation.

These politicians are the first to raise a human cry after a disaster occurs about what they characterize as an inadequate response and complain about the huge cost of cleanup.

They missed the valuable childhood message, 'A stitch in time saves nine.'

We need adequate regulation."

That's Claudia's point of view.

- On that note- - [Mike] Yes.

- The idea of regulation, it's been pointed out by people who are supportive of what the Biden administration has been doing, that when Donald Trump came to the area earlier this week and ended up in a McDonald's and throwing out "Make America Great Again" hats and things like that, that if he really wanted to make an effort and an impact here, he could be pushing Congress to make those kind of changes, that would be something that could actually, potentially do exactly what that letter writer, or that commenter just said.

(newscast music) - A Strongsville lawmaker has withdrawn a controversial amendment to the state's transportation budget that would've prevented a bike lane project planned for Superior Avenue in Cleveland.

Gabe, what were Representative Patton's objections to the plan in the first place?

And we got an email, by the way, asking, I wanna know the specific problems that he had with this, so let's go through that, and then what made him change his mind?

- Well, the big thing was, you know, these will be bike lanes perhaps in the middle of the road, and their access to emergency vehicles and things of that matter were a concern, and the concern was, are locals, communities, city councils, really thinking thoroughly about this?

These are bike lanes that, you know, won't be used for a good chunk of the year.

The winters can be pretty harsh in Ohio, but after speaking with NOACA, the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinated Agency, that does a lot of work in terms of transportation, his concerns were put at ease after that.

So, when you think about, you know, I think it's a fair concern to think, okay, these are bike lanes that we haven't really seen too often or too frequently, you know, are these things that will be an obstruction to emergency vehicles?

- [Mike] Right.

- It does matter.

- They're protected bike lanes, so it's not just striping.

- [Gabe] Right.

Right.

- And so how would that affect it?

And apparently, the senator, Karen said what he heard, and it was a pretty big human cry when people found out that this was in the budget, what he heard convinced him to make a change.

- People who advocate for bicycles and people who advocate for trains are really good at advocating.

I mean, I heard a lot about this just in what I wrote about it, but it was interesting to hear Representative Patton talk to the executive director from NOACA during that committee hearing about some of the other things that he was concerned about, the trucking industry concerns, but also, he seemed to be concerned about the financial obligation here.

The project is fully funded, but the city of Cleveland owes about $5,000,000 into that, and he said, "What if we put that up for a vote?

Would people want $5,000,000 spent on, say, snow plows rather than a bike lane?"

And, you know, she definitely responded that, "Hey, that's not what I'm here for.

I don't know what the voters would say.

I'm not an expert in that.

I'm talking about this," but yeah, the two did apparently talk, and so this is something that has been resolved and will no longer be part of the transportation budget.

- You're talking about Grace Gallucci from NOACA here?

- [Karen] Yes.

Yes.

- It's part of the transportation budget, as you mentioned.

There's another noteworthy aspect in that budget bill that lawmakers want a billion dollars earmarked for rural road projects.

Is that a lot?

- Yeah, that is a lot, and there were some questions raised about that money going to rural projects when there are plenty of projects in urban areas that also need funding, and this just shows some of the things that can happen very quickly with the transportation budget because it had been out for about a week and a half, maybe two weeks, and then all these proposals came down, all these changes, the ones I talked about before the break about the train regulations and all this bike stuff and some of these other things, came down this week, which, of course, was a shortened week because of President's Day.

So, the transportation budget could come to the house floor next week, which is fast, in a way, but also, the transportation budget deadline is March 31st, so lawmakers don't have a whole lot of time to think about some of this stuff.

- Gabe, when we talk about a center bike lane on Superior, another planned on Lorain, also side bike lanes that are throughout the city, the Complete and Green Streets legislation that the city of Cleveland follows, which is to make sure that the kind of commuting we're talking about is not just vehicles, but people being able to walk and people being able to ride, shows you a real change, it seems, in what our thinking is about transportation, especially in a city that was built for a whole lot more people.

- Right, and more and more and more, we're seeing the demand for walkability, ease.

Abled people want to be able to get around their city without having to rely on vehicles.

I'm a casual bicyclist.

Our friend, producer behind us, Drew Maziasz, is an avid bicyclist.

- [Mike] Yeah, we should just have 'em open up the microphone 'cause he'll go for an hour.

- People, you know, would be very excited about this, especially in a place like Cleveland, and when you think about the demographics that are really yearning for that ability to get around without a car, you know, these are demographics that Ohio is trying to attract to the state.

So, you know, in terms of wanting to bring people to Cleveland, we wanna make more attractive.

We've talked time and time again about increasing transit and busing systems, but increasing bike lanes and making it more accessible by a biker, on foot, would bring more people to Cleveland.

I know it's a tough place to get around in the wintertime, but, you know, I mean, like I said, this guy behind us, Drew Maziasz, he will happily ride around in the snow and ice.

- [Mike] Behind you.

- But- - [Gabe] Behind me, yes.

- [Mike] In front of me.

- [Gabe] True.

- I wanted to add that there is a disconnect though between people in urban areas who want these things and people in suburban and rural areas who may not want these things.

- [Mike] Right.

- And I think that there may be a misunderstanding by some lawmakers that there is this desire to have bike lanes and public transit and that sort of thing because we have three major cities in Ohio, as well as several smaller cities, and so getting that disconnect and bridging that gap can be a real challenge.

(newscast music) - Ohio Secretary of State Frank LaRose unveiled legislation he says will help address distrust in elections, and he purged more than 120,000 inactive voters from election roles.

DATAA, that stands for Data Analysis Transparency Archive Act, is sponsored by Republican State Senator Theresa Gavarone.

It codifies definitions for election data terms and standardizes it across all 88 counties, establishes a new analytics office under the Secretary of State.

Karen, LaRose says the bill will ensure all 88 counties are speaking the same language when it comes to elections.

Were they speaking different languages before and was there a problem?

- Well, I specifically asked him about that, and the tradition in Ohio is we have, basically, 88 elections on election day, 'cause counties really have a lot of control over the voting machines they can pick and the software they can use, things like this, and so the question is then, without taking away their control, how can you get that information more easily to the Secretary of State's office and come up with a process by which it's done easily?

And so, he says that's what this bill does.

It doesn't take away power from local boards of elections, though he says he hasn't talked to the Board of Elections Association, the Ohio Association of Elections officials about this.

He's talked to some Boards of Elections though, and he said this will just allow them to get rid of that headache of how do they define election data?

How do they send it on to the Secretary of State's office?

There's an office within the Secretary of State that will deal with just this data, and so he says it will standardize things.

Won't necessarily speed up the count on election night or anything like that, but the public could potentially see this in that it will all be published online and so there would be a place where people could go and see what the results of elections were and really get a better sense of what that data says.

- This goes hand in hand with the election reform bill signed by the governor.

Voting activists aren't happy about this though.

- Well, and I think that there's still the idea that that voting law changes bill that you're talking about here, that's the one that requires voters to show photo ID, there's still a lawsuit that potentially is going to affect that.

That bill goes into effect in April, so that means, by the May primary, though a lot of people won't see a May primary, you would have to show photo ID, and so, I think advocates are concerned about all these things, saying that this is not what the system needs, that the system really, if you're talking about overcoming a trust deficit, which is a word that LaRose used, that he says voters just simply don't necessarily trust the results of elections on the Left and the Right, he says, well, more transparency will overcome that trust deficit.

- [Mike] Hmm.

- But certainly, some folks would say, hey, if there were fewer claims of, say, voter fraud, which really doesn't affect elections.

I mean, it barely exists.

It's, you know, 0.0000 whatever percent, then maybe that would restore some of the trust that voters might have.

- [Mike] Gabe?

- I also think there might be concern from voter activists that, you know, perhaps what might make it harder to get registered, or stay registered, which I think is a concern for voter activists time and time again, but also, I find this whole thing to be very fascinating because over and over and over, Frank LaRose is telling people that the election is secure, there's nothing to worry about, there's no reason to distrust, and it seems like, you know, he has to take this action that goes against what he's been telling us for several years because, particularly, his party, and people from his party, are concerned about the results of elections despite him saying time to time again that it's secure and there's nothing to worry about, I think, to some people, might feel like a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

- He also purged the voter rolls of more than 100,000 voters.

It's a process that's been legally settled by the US Supreme Court.

Karen, who is purged?

Is it somebody that, how long have they been sitting there and not voting?

- Well, the process is that voters are removed from the voting roles if they don't vote or respond to mailed notices from elections officials over a six-year period.

So, you basically have to miss a couple of election cycles to get one of these notices and be then removed if you don't respond.

Now, there's been some changes in state law.

For instance, if you renew your driver's license, then that can trigger your voter registration to be updated.

The whole point of this is to keep the voter rolls accurate and get rid of people who have died, people who have changed addresses and moved completely outta state or moved into another district, and the more accurate the voter rolls are, the more accurate the election is, but there have been plenty of anecdotal stories of people saying, "Hey, I got a notice that I was purged and I didn't move.

I didn't change anything."

- [Mike] Right.

- And then now, I have to try to figure out how to register to vote and you need to register to vote 30 days before an election to actually cast a ballot.

So, the process of removing people from the voter rolls has been kind of difficult to understand for a lot of people.

It's confusing, but it has been supported, like you said, by the Ohio, by the US Supreme Court.

(newscast music) - Platform Brewery shut down local operations this week.

The once rising star in Cleveland's brewery scene was sold to Anheuser-Busch in 2019.

There were layoffs and rumbles of trouble and now, the local tap is running dry.

Employees have been laid off.

Cleveland was really gaining some steam with Noble Beast and Masthead and of course, the granddaddy of them all, Great Lakes Brewing Company, Market Garden, and then you add Platform, which suddenly launched, Gabe, to national prominence and then was bought up by Anheuser-Busch, and now, within years, gone.

What's that say?

- Well, and I think you can also tie it into the restaurant industry as a whole, or the nightlife industry as a whole, because, you know, in the last few years, you've seen other giants closing.

You see a Greenhouse Tavern in Downtown, Alola next to it Downtown on East Fourth Street, Sokolowski's in Tremont, and these kind of were the giants.

These were the places when someone came to town, you said, "You gotta check out these places."

- [Mike] Right.

- And, you know, say what you want about Platform and any controversy they may have had over the last few years, they were a player in this, in shaping, you know, the nightlife scene of Cleveland over the last few years, and for them to be gone, I think, you know, people can see that as a loss.

It was a cool place to go and, you know, when you include them in all those names, we still have a lot of those names, certainly, but when you lose, you know, institutions like so Sokolowski's, you wonder what institution is gonna be the next one as a mainstay in Cleveland for years and years to come, and it will not be Platform.

- But beyond as a pub, as a production facility, and the number of jobs that were employed there, the number of people that were employed there, it's a blow.

- Oh, absolutely, and, you know, you and I have personal friends who work in that industry and, you know, people might bounce around from job to job, but it's not like there's just a lot of them to go around, so losing, you know, losing these is a hit for people who once upon in time could have came to Cleveland as a place, oh, I work in the beer production facility.

Cleveland's a destination for me to go to.

You know, this is a hit in that world.

(newscast music) - Monday on the "Sound of Ideas" on WKSU, we welcome psychologist and author, Dr. Lisa Damour, back to the show.

She'll discuss her new book, "The Emotional Lives of Teenagers."

Anna Huntsman will be in for Rick Jackson for that discussion.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thank you so much for watching and stay safe.

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