From WXXI news.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

I'm laughing because I hit the wrong button there.

I'm a tech professional.

Everybody.

Our connection this hour was made on a debate stage when the two candidates for New York governor got together to spar on the issues.

Incumbent Governor Kathy Hochul and Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman went hard on each other over a wide range of issues taxes, the Cornell investigation, the cost of energy, housing, AI, and a whole lot more leading us off this hour is my colleague Jon Campbell, who is, of course, with the New York Public News Network.

He's albeit Albany correspondent for WNYC and Gothamist.

Jon, welcome back to the program, sir.

Thanks so much for having me, Evan.

So first of all, we're going to listen in a moment to a clip of the candidates talking about energy.

But they were pretty hard at each other all night long.

They did the classic thing where you kind of ignore the question that you were asked and answer and, well, you know, kind of level the attack that you want.

The question is, you know, is something breaking through here?

How do we figure out where this race stands?

What do you see?

Well, I mean, listen, in a modern debate in the modern era of how we all consume content on the internet, whether it's social media, whether it's, you know, through news sites, whatever.

I mean, your goal is to get some sort of clip that you can share with your followers that can ricochet across the internet and, and perhaps pick off some, some undecided voters then, or some of your opponent's voters to come to your side.

I mean, but, you know, in this race in particular and in a lot of races across the country, you know, people have already made up their minds.

Generally speaking, there was a American University poll, two weeks ago, that that found just 5% of voters said that they were undecided in this race.

And of those that were supporting Hochul or Blakeman, only 2% said that they'd be open to switching their vote before Election Day.

So, you know, I don't know that we got any of those, you know, mega viral, moments that that really do ricochet across the internet and could have some sort of impact.

And I certainly don't know that the debate had any moments that really would lead many voters to, to change their minds.

I mean, there was a lot of falling back on the same talking points that we've heard a lot throughout the campaign from both of these candidates, Kathy Hochul and Bruce Blakeman.

So, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much this debate really kind of broke through with the with the general audience and, and whether or not that would have any real impact on flipping voters one way or another.

You know, I thought it was interesting.

Bruce Blakeman appeared on this program and expressed a lot of optimism.

I mean, every candidate does, but here's what I think is at least interesting to see comparing to four years ago.

First of all, it would be I'll let Jon characterize it.

It would be an earthquake if a Republican won the governor's battle in New York State, especially in this climate.

Yes.

We've had Republican governors in the past.

But obviously right now this looks like a big blue wave kind of year.

And if Bruce Blakeman wins, it's a huge, huge story.

If you look at four years ago, Lee Zeldin loses by only five points.

The Republican candidate, Kathy Hochul, only wins by five points.

Most of the polling in the weeks before had her up well into double digits.

Now there's a couple of different polls out.

When Bruce Blakeman was on this program a couple of weeks ago, there was one poll.

Hochul was up 18, but another poll, I think Siena, she was only up nine.

And if you look at the same sort of trajectory, Blakeman feels like this could be, you know, a margin of error race.

Yeah.

Can you compared to four years ago, how do you follow that logic?

Jon?

What do you think?

Well, I mean, you used the word earthquake and yes, it would be.

Yeah, I think that's the right word because New York has twice as many Democrats as Republicans.

And we haven't had a Republican win a statewide race since 2002, when George Pataki has his third and final term as governor.

But I do think that that race four years ago with with Lee Zeldin and Kathy Hochul showed that it's at least possible.

Right?

It showed the pathway and and it's what what Bruce Blakeman, another Long Island Republican, is trying to to follow what he's banking on and the polls, you know, the university polls that are out there or anywhere from 9 to 19 points in terms of the, excuse me, the governor's margin of victory, you know, the conventional wisdom.

And you do see this a lot.

You did see it four years ago is that the race tightens up as you get closer to Election Day.

So Bruce Blakeman is is really banking on that.

You know, listen, Kathy Hochul, the Democratic incumbent, is the favorite.

There's no doubt about it.

But it's not, out of the realm of possibility that the race could tighten and tighten as we as we get closer to Election Day.

And, you know, you said it's lining up to be a blue wave year.

It kind of was four years ago everywhere but New York.

I mean, Kathy Hochul had a kind of weak showing at the top of the ticket in that trickled down to congressional races across the state.

You know, I don't know if that's lining up this year, but there are times where I mean that is an example of when a state can kind of buck the national trend.

And that's what happened four years ago.

So let's listen to this clip.

You'll hear the moderator's question on the subject of energy, and you'll get a sense for what both candidates want to focus on from this debate.

New Yorkers pay among the highest energy costs in the nation, with experts saying that older plants are being shut down at a faster pace than the state can build new generation.

And you've acknowledged that problem by sending out energy rebate checks to many New Yorkers.

But the demand for energy continues, and those prices continue to soar.

Will these checks be going out annually and beyond that, what are you doing in the short term to lower utility costs?

You know, Susan, great question.

I understand the pain that so many people are going through.

Energy prices are high all over America.

And the issue is, is he put out so perfectly is that we don't have enough supply to meet the demand.

So I have an all the above approach.

I did do energy rebates just as a short term solution, but I'm trying to build more.

But you know what the real problem is?

I've got Donald Trump standing in the way of my energy projects.

Literally shut down a project, kicking 1300 people off their jobs that would have powered half a million homes in Brooklyn.

I also want to do part of my all the above.

I'm trying to do nuclear with the white House playing politics.

Want to sign off on it?

So we're doing the best we can, but don't overlook the fact that is the war with Iran that is driving up gasoline costs and energy cause almost double of what they were in the past.

Get diesel is now double what it was.

That is a real cost of energy that people are dealing with.

And it was so unnecessary.

And my opponent supports exactly what Donald Trump did with that war.

Well, you raise income taxes.

Many of your progressive allies respond to that first.

Sure.

I'd like to respond to the utility bill issue, because that's probably one of the most prevalent issues that we have here in New York.

Kathy, Donald Trump didn't raise utility rates 48 times.

You did.

Donald Trump didn't increase our utility bills by 50% since you become governor.

You gave $150 back to people in a rebate in an election year right before the election, when you've raised the average bill $4,000 a year and your own energy research department says your policies will raise it another $4,000 in the next five years time.

It's out of control, and it's because of you, Kathy.

All right.

So that's their one of their exchanges last night.

So Jon Campbell a couple of things here and I'm gonna hit it point by point.

The governor multiple times in this debate said that she has an all of the above energy plan, but she doesn't.

She is not for fracking.

Bruce Blakeman is.

So I think, first of all, just factually the governor is incorrect on that point.

Do you agree do you agree with that?

I would say all of the above ish.

And you just mentioned the big one, right?

Fracking for natural gas.

New York sits on the Marcellus Shale formation, which is this gas rich underground shale formation that you would need high volume hydraulic fracturing to tap into that has been banned in New York state since officially since 2014, and unofficially for years before that.

And that is in state law now that that has been codified in state law.

The governor has said that Donald Trump himself has pressured her on that point.

And she said, no, that's the law.

I can't do it.

But she has allowed, there was a gas pipeline called the Northeast Supply Pipeline near New York City, taking fracked gas from Pennsylvania, bringing it to New York.

She has allowed that that was a pipeline that was stalled under the Cuomo administration.

So all of the above sort of.

But but, you know, her larger point is I'm all for nuclear.

I'm for, natural gas, aside from allowing fracking in New York, she's for renewables.

That's what she's trying to get across when it comes to nuclear.

Her position is if not for the Trump administration, we would be seeing more nuclear happening under her watch.

Is that a fair characterization?

Yeah, that was one that was a little surprising when she said that.

I don't I don't know that we were aware of a Trump administration roadblock in terms of, in terms of nuclear in particular.

She is trying to open a new nuclear facility.

But that's something that is years away from happening.

I mean, the process is really just started.

So, you know, she was not very clear about how the Trump administration was throwing a roadblock up there.

There certainly will be federal approvals that are needed.

But she has, you know, clashed with the Trump administration, with Donald Trump in particular, about energy policy on a number of different things, including natural gas fracking, including, another pipeline called the Constitution Pipeline that would go through the Southern Tier that has not yet been approved in in New York that the Trump administration very much wants approved.

Then the other very frequent attack line from the governor last night was on data centers.

We are seeing governors races across the country focusing on this issue.

And I spent a lot of time driving across the state this summer.

I was in rural New York a lot.

I saw anti data center signs right next to anti safe signs.

And I'm like it was it's pretty bipartisan I mean I think the polling shows if you oppose it you're slightly more likely to oppose data centers.

If you're a Democrat than a Republican.

But both sides essentially oppose data centers right now.

And Bruce Blakeman has endorsed data centers he had.

Now he has put some conditions on it.

But clearly, I think the governor sees an opening here and tried to pin Blakeman on that multiple times.

Yes.

Yeah.

Which is kind of interesting because the data center thing is kind of new for Kathy Hochul.

I mean, she imposed a, data center moratorium, a one year data center moratorium within the last couple of months.

Before that, she, you know, was was, asked about data center moratoriums and said, well, you know, we're not looking exactly at that, but she wants to make sure that there are pathways for for communities who want these data centers to, to, get the benefits that they deserve from them.

But yes, she absolutely sees this as a potent line of attack against Bruce Blakeman, who opposes the governor's data center moratorium.

You know, he says the governor hasn't done enough to prepare for this and is blocking innovation, essentially blocking, blocking this route, potentially for communities that want them.

So, yeah, it is a clear line of demarcation between the two candidates.

And it's one that the governor is really, really trying to press in these last few weeks of the campaign because obviously it's polling.

Well, I mean, it is you said it yourself.

It's polling well among Democrats.

It's only one among among Republicans.

The idea of, blocking data centers.

I mean, they are just not popular right now.

And she's, she's doing her best to try to make that a potent political issue in the final weeks of the campaign.

Well, one thing I would love to ask her, and she's never been on this program.

And, Jon, I'm not salty about that.

Do I sound salty?

And put in a good word for us, Jon Campbell.

We'll see.

The governor I don't know that that would help.

The governor turned us down during this campaign.

Bruce Blakeman did come on this program, and we appreciated his time.

They were both invited.

They'll both be invited in the future.

That's just how it goes.

But to Jon's point on the recent ness of the governor's position on data centers.

Up until, you know, six, seven months ago, the governor's office was talking about making New York state, you know, an AI leader, kind of comparing us to sort of silicon Valley and talking about, you know, the right kind of but, but strong, very forward thinking innovation.

And to me, that just shows ever since the hugging face hack, and some of the high profile resignations, Jon, that we've seen from anthropic and OpenAI, the public, the, the, the culture and everything has changed so quickly.

I've rarely seen an issue become this politicized.

And this flipped this quickly in recent memory.

Have you know, and that's exactly right.

I would also say that the governor is trying to kind of walk a thin line here, right?

She's saying, I'm not trying to block innovation.

I'm not saying no to data centers, ever.

I'm just saying we need to take a pause to to put in place measures that, ensure the communities get the benefits that they, that they want and deserve from this and ensure that, energy production is in place for these, these, these facilities that we have, you know, guardrails in place.

So she's she is trying to kind of walk a thin line there.

But you're absolutely right.

I mean, in the last several months, the tide has turned big time on, on data centers.

And, a lot of these AI companies in particular, that require these data centers.

So, yeah, there is a certain amount of reading the political winds there.

And, she's trying to ride those winds to reelection.

All right.

Before we let Jon go, producer Megan Mack, we should put in our show notes a link to the full debate.

Let people if they want to see a I mean, there's different sources on YouTube.

You you're have a chance to watch the candidates in full and and you should especially if you're undecided.

But, it's always nice to see the Kennedys together, and I appreciate seeing them together.

The last question I'll have for Jon is on the issue of Cornell.

I thought it was, you know, it's pretty striking that the county executive, Blakeman, accused the governor of prejudging that case, accused Letitia James of prejudging that case for what both of them have said publicly.

And and then tried to hit the governor, basically saying, look, all of your connections to Cornell and you're if you truly cared, you're late to the game here.

You could have done more sooner.

The governor basically deflected and said she continued to call it a brutal assault.

That was her word last night, a brutal assault, and said she's not going to apologize for that characterization.

She's a mother.

She's thinking about, you know, the way that she wants women to be protected.

I wonder, number one, if you think any sort of political blood was drawn either direction there.

And if you do think that there's interesting questions about whether the governor and the attorney general have sort of, you know, muddied the water by some of their public statements about this before an investigation is complete.

Well, certainly with the attorney general.

I mean, should she bring a case against the, the seven Cornell, students who have been accused of this, this gang rape, alleged gang rape, certainly that is going to come up in the court process.

And certainly that is going to be something that the the potential defendants would use.

In their defense, the attorney general, you know, said, if something to the effect of my heart goes out to the, to, to Jane Doe in this case, and, you know, so it'll it'll certainly be, potential fodder there.

You know, the the real interesting thing that I, I don't know that either side drew any, any political blood there.

I mean, Bruce Blakeman was trying to make the case that the governor is is a trustee and Cornell University, whoever the governor is, is a trustee of Cornell University.

The governor the governor was saying, well, that's ex-officio, which means it's non-voting.

It's almost ceremonial, the role.

But I don't know how much that resonated.

The one really interesting thing about the Cornell part of that debate, though, was Bruce Blakeman did come out in favor of of legislation to close what some people call the voluntary intoxication loophole in New York.

That's a, the way the law is crafted in New York and 18 other states in the country.

It makes it more difficult for prosecutors to win a conviction in a case where an alleged victim voluntarily becomes intoxicated, takes drugs, drinks before the, the event in question, the sexual assault question.

So, Bruce Blakeman said he does want to to change that in New York, change the law that followed the governor, who said the same, two weeks ago, I believe, October 1st.

And, you know, that is an issue that's going to be taken up in Albany.

And whomever the governor is seems to be, supportive of that, of closing that whether the state assembly goes along with that come January.

That's another question.

Jon Campbell wears a lot of hats.

He's Albany correspondent for the New York Public News Network.

We always love talking to Jon and appreciate your time and expertise.

Have fun with the the coverage.

And it's a very, very busy time for you.

Thanks for making time for our program today, sir.

Hey, thank you having very much appreciate it.

That's Jon Campbell short break.

My colleague Gino Fanelli next talking about, the city of Rochester reviving the city's only sanctioned homeless encampment.

That story ahead, support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

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Our college's doing enough to support students struggling with mental health.

I'm Evan Dawson.

On Thursday, October 22nd, Connections is leaving the studio and you're invited.

Join us at noon at the Little Theater for a live conversation about mental health on college campuses.

What's working, what isn't, and what students say they need.

Come be part of the conversation.

Reserve your seat at WXXI news.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

We would love to see you there live at the Little Theater.

And as producer Megan Mack, I've been saying, if you have ideas where you want us to be in the community for live events, let us know.

We're going to be doing a lot more of that in the months and the years to come here.

My colleague Gina Fanelli is with us in studio, and I'm going to start by reading a little bit of his recent reporting on the issue from New York City Council, gave the go ahead Tuesday to revive peace Village, the city's only sanctioned homeless encampment.

The unanimous vote came three years after a decision to buy a series of prefabricated pallet shelters to replace what replaced what was a chanty village of tents and sheds.

And a month after, the shelter manufacturer shut down, meaning the city will be on its own for replacement parts and maintenance.

And, Gino's here.

We're going to talk about the implications of this decision, which I don't think was a surprise.

But, there's a lot to talk about here.

So thank you for being here.

And no surprise on this particular story on Tuesday night.

Oh, no.

I mean, I think we had known for a long time.

I've been covering this for many years now.

And, we knew it was going to move forward.

I think the only surprise that we saw the actual night of the vote was that, there were some last minute amendments that several members of the council had submitted that are largely inconsequential.

They didn't want armed guards there.

They didn't.

They want to study in the future, whether they will allow tents on the site, why it took them four years to at the last minute, say, hey, we have some decisions to make.

It's beyond me.

But yeah, that was the only real surprise there.

We've known this is coming.

It got held, last month when was supposed to go to a vote, went to a special vote, earlier this month.

And now it seemed like it actually happening and supposed to be supposed to be done before the winter.

I want to emphasize this point.

That was in your second paragraph.

Do you know there is such a great job, but not only telling you the story, but finding some of these nuggets?

The shelter manufacturer has shut down.

That's how long this has been going on.

Yeah.

Pep pellet was based out of Everett, Washington, and started up as kind of a lot of cities around the country were trying to deal with this growing, issue of homelessness.

So with kind of this innovative idea and, yeah, they, they shut down, they there was a number of reasons for it, but it seems like a big part of it was, people found a ways to do it way, way cheaper than they were doing it.

So they are saying they're moving on to their next phase of, solving the issues of homelessness.

But, yeah, we took so long that the company that made these things, which was kind of the height of pallet being like the new innovative thing when we first signed up for it, it's gone.

It doesn't exist anymore.

Okay.

Will that affect anything?

The city is operating going forward.

The city will be have to pay for the repairs on it.

They're going to have to, palette.

As far as my understanding how it actually came out to help assemble, the shelters themselves.

But as far as the maintenance, replacement of the heating and cooling and electrical and everything the city is on the hook for, dealing with all of that.

All right.

So let's work through some of the details once again.

Where is Peace Village located?

Peace village is an industrial street.

It's a little like Dead End Road.

It's a little bit north of downtown on the, you know, west side of the river.

It's, vacant lot was a vacant lot, 2018, there was another homeless encampment called Peace Village on South Avenue got cleared out.

So this was kind of given over a designated site for people to set up tents.

And, it used to be like a set of, like, shower sheds.

Most of them were burned down, moves infested with rats, with trash and needles everywhere.

It was not a great place, but it was like a place where the city said, if you want to set up a tent in the city, you can go here and do it.

Okay.

And so from your reporting, person centered Housing Options is going to serve as the contractor for the site, providing outreach services in case management, trying to transition people into actual long term housing.

And residents at Peace Village are going to need to apply for one of the 18.

There's 18 units of units.

Yeah.

So they'll have to apply and then they'd have to follow rules for living in Peace Village.

Yeah, I presume that means a number of things, including perhaps is is drug use included or.

No.

This was one of the specific questions I had is, needle use.

Yeah.

Are people being allowed to use intravenous drugs on the site?

And there was a lot of, like, back and forth.

I'm like, maybe, I don't know.

But then, PCO, which is running the site, they were pretty straightforward.

Like, no, like people are not going to be allowed to use drugs here.

They can leave and do it and then come back and they're not going to, you know, hold them, you know, from being able to enter the site.

But yeah, they're there.

And this is kind of the big thing that some of the homeless, people that I talked to, that had lived at Peace Village were kind of upset about.

It's not just the fact that you can't do drugs there, but this is not a homeless encampment anymore in the traditional sense.

It's basically an open air homeless shelter with rules, with obligations, with applications, with, you know, oversight or people complaining about that.

Some of the homeless advocates are complaining about it.

And some of the homeless people that have lived there have, complained about it, that this is not what it was originally meant to be.

And it opens up the door to this kind of philosophical argument about, do people have a right to live on the street in any fashion?

If they so choose.

And it's a really, really complicated, conversation to have.

Well, yes.

And I want to without endorsing any side, I want to just observe something I think is important.

When you talk about the debate or just the question of, are people going to be allowed to use needles and use drugs?

There ultimately says, no, but there were certain certainly people in the audience kind of go like, well, you know, like maybe.

And in my experience, in the last 10 to 15 years, I think there has been a real split.

There is still a big push toward harm reduction, toward, leniency toward meeting people where they are.

And then there is a shift among some toward a that hasn't worked.

People are struggling.

Drug use is not good for them, and allowing it in any way is enabling.

And you have to draw firmer lines.

And I just, you know, those two camps are sort of getting more further entrenched.

And I don't know what's going to sort of quote unquote, win in the city of Rochester.

Yeah, it's a great point.

I had a pretty long conversation with a city council member about, this idea of harm reduction and what it actually means for a municipality to, you know, endorse those kinds of measures.

And it is a very complicated conversation that gets really dark really quickly if you start getting into the, really granular details of it.

Narcan is probably one of the biggest harm reduction measures that we've adopted as a county.

You can find it anywhere public parks.

It's it's pretty easy to get and it saved a lot of lives.

It also opened to the philosophical question of, did it do anything to improve the lives of the people that it was meant to save?

And that's a really, really tough thing that, no, that you end up with people that are still in street addiction and, are surviving through a really, really tough style of life.

That, yeah, I think a lot of our harm reduction measures that we, we look at as solutions to the problem are not really solutions as much of.

They are Band-Aids to prevent the more critical acute effects of, you know, street homelessness, drug addiction, mental health issues.

And I think when you look at the whole as like macro lens picture of the country that we live in is, we, we have not substantially invested into public mental health services to, easy access to a drug addiction treatment.

It's expensive to go to treatment if someone else has been paying for it.

So all these factors into like, how do we frankly, the harm reduction measures, they exist or how do we prevent people from dying?

All right.

A couple other things before we let you go on timeline and and money.

So what is the timeline for getting this thing online now?

There hasn't been an exact date on when it's going to be open.

The shelters are done.

They're they're built.

They're they're ready to go.

They're finishing out with some of their like, contractual obligations of how they're going to actually roll this out.

But as far as I understand it, McGowan will.

And of the council president had estimated like, mid-November.

But they want it done and ready to go before the snow falls.

Essentially, yeah.

And for people who either remember or maybe you don't remember, or maybe you're new to this community, there is a sensitivity, obviously, toward the cold weather months, as any community is sensitive about its homeless population.

Then there's a especially a sensitivity around the holidays, given sort of the Christmas Eve bulldozing of 2014, I think was the was back in 2014, 2015.

It was right around then and we had 1 in 2024 to another in 2022.

South Clinton there was fairly large homeless encampment that was cleared out in December 23rd, before, pretty major blizzard happened.

So that was the reasoning the city had given.

Yes.

The city told you, if I recall, was this was literally to make sure people are off the streets and forcing them into shelters because we worried about people dying.

Yeah.

I got Barbara Pierce fired up over at City Hall about that.

She it was really like, one of those things where we were there was a lot of homeless advocates there that were really upset about it.

And, the communications, office there was like, look, do you want these people to die enough to have to clear their bodies off the street?

Because that's what we're going to have to do.

Yeah, that's pretty awful.

I think she was fired up because I think they felt like there was they didn't want anything mischaracterized.

I think they understood what happened in 2014, back when Mayor Lovely Warren was in charge, and there was literally bulldozers taking out sleeping bags and tents and belongings, down near 490.

And I think they understood the optics at that.

But, in this case, there was a blizzard attached there.

I think they would say that they wouldn't have done that on December 23rd were it not for the weather.

Right?

Yeah.

And, I would be remiss not to mention to, as I'm saying, that the city was really adamant we don't want people to die.

They did offer, transportation to a shelter, to everyone that was staying there.

And, zero of them took it.

So they just went somewhere else.

Yeah.

Again, it kind of emphasizes the complexity of the problem of like, you know, it's there.

You know, these people are at risk.

Do you do something about it, and destabilize that population, potentially put them into a worse condition, or do you do nothing and then go have to move a frozen corpse when the snow is that.

Yeah.

I just hope they don't die, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

So let's close up here with this one more time.

I'm going to read from Gina's reporting the initial funding for Peace Village is set at $1.2 million, and it will come from the money the city received from state settlements with opioid manufacturers.

That money would carry operations through June of 2027.

The annual operating cost going forward is estimated at 1.9 million.

So you've got some opioid settlement money for now, but it's very finite.

And so the city is committing essentially to almost $2 million a year starting next year for this.

Right.

Yeah.

And it's one of those things where well first of all I think there is some confusion when I've been doing these stories that like why does it cost so much to have the shelter.

If I could build sheds for weight loss and I this like.

But it's not about the shelters, like, it's the services and these nonprofits, they rack up bills pretty quickly if you're doing, you know, inpatient treatment, your, the the food, the security, all of these things, they do add up.

So, it is expensive to do the kind of project that they're talking about dealing.

As far as where the money is going to come from, that's a tougher question.

And I don't think anyone has a clear answer for that yet.

The city I know is hoping to partner with the county on this, who has some obligation in dealing with homeless services.

In fact, you can make a very strong argument that they are the, government body who's supposed to take care of homeless services.

That hasn't materialized yet, though.

So there's always fancy accounting you can do, to, to make it work.

But yeah, where that money is going to come from and how it's going to be sustained over, you know, the long term is, a question still in the air.

We we don't really know that yet.

Now, the the city of Rochester's annual budget is I mean, I'm trying to find it real quick here.

A little over 500 million, I think.

I mean, it's hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yeah.

So they may say, okay, it's $2 million a year.

We will find the money in the budget.

It's worth doing.

I suspect that's what council President Miguel Melendez would say.

Yeah.

The deputy mayor said effectively the same thing.

Okay.

So, but certainly they do have to decide because opioid settlement is going to be running, it's going to run out.

It's going to run.

Any other questions that are still in your mind about this project?

Before we let you go?

I mean, I think the big thing is, when it's off the ground, I mean, what difference does it make?

Right?

I think I and I say this, a lot when I talk about these, you know, we we, as someone who lives in Rochester and, you know, talks to a lot of people that live in the city.

The the issue is palpable.

The street homelessness and addiction is really bad right now.

And I think, I think on one hand is, you know, as a reporter watching it, you get to kind of look at these not to be complimentary, but innovative solutions, these, these new ideas of how to deal with these things.

And you get to see whether or not they work.

So I guess the big question is, will it work?

Will it make a tangible difference?

And it is a small population.

It's it is not, as, council President said, not a panacea.

It's not going to solve all the problems here, but it is one tool that we can have, and we might need more of them if we're going to actually address the problem in that way.

Or how many people don't want the oversight, they don't want a security.

They don't want someone knocking on their their door and asking them what they need that day.

Some people do just want to be out there.

And, so how many people will they even have a problem filling up those, 18 shelters with a question that still, is on my mind, too.

So, there's a lot of questions about how this moves forward and what we do as a community to kind of deal with something that, you know, puts a lot of people's lives at risk and a lot of death and injury happens as a result of how our homeless services have operated for a very long time.

So lots of questions there, I guess, you know, finally, great work.

Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me.

And before we get to our last break of the hour, I just want to mention, if you want to know what Gina's working on, if you want to know what's coming up on Connections every morning, if you want to know what's happening in the newsroom, you really need to sign up for the WXXI daily newsletter.

It's WXXI news.org/newsletter, WXXI news.org/newsletter.

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After World War II, two cities across the country mandated bigger lot sizes for single family homes, leading to fewer houses and higher prices.

You need to build a large McMansion just to justify the cost of assembling so much land.

A ballot measure in Massachusetts aims to create more affordable starter homes on smaller lots.

How Voters are responding and all things considered.

From NPR news.

This afternoon at four.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

When producer Meagan Mack saw that at the end of October, there was going to be a documentary on Bea Arthur coming to the little it like, we got to talk about this.

If you.

I mean, maybe you love the Golden Girls.

Maybe you watched Maude.

Maybe you appreciate Bea Arthur's career from.

Well, before that, this documentary is really, really beautiful.

It is comprehensive, and it tells the life of someone who.

Maybe you're like me.

Maybe you really only knew Bea Arthur from a little bit of Maude.

And certainly the Golden Girls.

Her story is much more interesting than maybe I would have thought.

And she's a really.

She was a really interesting celebrity.

She died in 2009.

She was a really interesting celebrity because she wasn't all about the celebrity life.

She was very private.

She didn't do a lot of interviews.

Doesn't mean that she was a curmudgeon.

She just had her own way.

And so this is the first chance you really get to peel back and see the full story and relive some of the behind the scenes stuff with Golden Girls, if you like.

Maude I didn't even know models for season.

They did a big two part episode on abortion that was a natural national controversy.

But it's a really, really interesting documentary.

And the name of the documentary is Bea Arthur.

The documentary.

I've done everything except porn, which is something she actually said.

Scott Pukos from Little Theater, director of communications for The Little Is Here, and I'm sure a big Golden Girls fan.

Of course.

Of course, yes.

Thank you for having me.

And I want to welcome Dan Watt, who's an Emmy winning producer and director who is also with us to talk about it.

Hello, Dan.

Welcome.

Thanks for being here.

Oh, thanks for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

Dan, you just did such a lovely job with this.

I had a chance to watch it last night.

Your affection for Bea Arthur is obvious.

But also, I just love the fact that for me, there's so many different pearls, nuggets and stories that I would never have had any kind of access to.

So I want to start this by asking you, you know, we lost her 17 years ago, so why now?

Why is this story being told now?

Well, you know, I was her assistant for six and a half years, before she passed away.

And we had these wonderful conversations like that over lunch at her house, and I said, we should film this.

People need to know these stories.

And she kind of said, oh, you think you can interview me?

And I said, yes.

And then she said, well, let's do it next Saturday.

And I'm like, oh my gosh.

She said, yes.

So I had access to, to to those stories every weekend.

And I thought, the world needs to know this, be it.

So I just decided to film it, and capture it and but then I because I was also her friend, it had to be just right.

And I didn't know my way in until three years ago.

Well, let's let's listen and watch if you're watching on YouTube, part of the trailer for the documentary Bea Arthur, the documentary, I've done everything except porn.

It's coming your way.

Wednesday, October 28th.

Two Wednesdays from now.

Two weeks from yesterday at the little at 7 p.m.. Here's part of the trailer for Big Personality.

But she didn't have to say much, and when she did, every word counted.

Which was very interesting because I never dreamed I could do comedy.

I learned an enormous amount from me in terms of comedy timing.

She was like a precision assassin.

Boom.

She got it.

She hit it right on the right spot.

I have a reason to be here.

It's not just for fun.

I have something to give.

I have something to show people.

Be was a wonderful singer.

She's very musical.

What can you get a nudist for her birthday?

How?

She didn't get money until she was 49 years old.

I mean, there's a whole career that happened before that.

So that what we see, that witty one liner from Dorothy, she studied 50 years to bring that to us.

God, I have done everything.

Everything except porn.

I really.

And they're still down there.

They're still so it's got puke is.

What did you learn from.

Have you seen it though?

Yes I have okay.

So what did you learn?

What did you enjoy?

Kind of peeling back that the birther story that you didn't know before?

Well, I learned a lot because I obviously know her from Golden Girls, but I did not know much of her history before, so I was learning a lot from it.

I didn't wasn't really familiar with modern Al, so a lot of that was very interesting.

And just starting your career, like they said of the trailer, she got married when she was 49, like starting her career later.

Obviously Golden Girls was even later in the career.

So it was just really fascinating.

And I really enjoyed the intimate, parts with her.

So was Dan and her together at the dining room table, just having a conversation, and she could be a little witty and sassy.

I really enjoy it.

You don't usually get a very intimate look at a celebrity like that, so it was very fascinating for me to watch.

I could not agree more.

And you know, Dan, I really love the approach here.

You give us this these wonderful interviews that you did, and you also give us really extended looks at a show I didn't know existed, which was her one woman show that she did about 20 years ago.

That was just so lovely.

And in a way, it probably feels feels comprehensive.

Every human being alive should get Dan to tell their story like this, because I feel like we actually get to know her in a way that you can't just know her if you know where is as Dorothy.

So what was your goal?

What do you want people to walk out of Little Theater in a couple weeks with once they see this documentary?

Well, I think they'll they'll get a glimpse of, you know, her personality comes through in all of her characters, little glimpses into it.

But to see, you know, so many times we put celebrities on a, a different level.

And, you know, you can see that she's just just a human being like the rest of us.

And she likes to joke around and, you know, she eats lunch just like the rest of us.

And dinner, and.

She was so she was fearless, and she was direct, but she loved love to have conversations.

So that's why, our lunches were so, so fun.

Because she wanted to know your opinion, but she also like to share hers and compare.

I did not know that she was in the service.

She met her first husband in the service.

And one really interesting part for me.

I want to ask you about this, Dan, is.

So we learned that Bea Arthur had a, a lot of friends who were gay friends in the LGBTQ community.

She became throughout her life and really the later part of her life, not only a fierce advocate for LGBTQ rights, but, a fundraiser.

She left money for causes.

But at the same time, this documentary is not, like, overtly political.

And, you know, we you bring us the mud abortion story, which is, again, not one that I was familiar with.

I thought that was very interesting at the time because here's the early 70s, you know, ro, it hasn't even happened yet.

Ro is like weeks away and I thought that was so fascinating.

But Bea Arthur also, you know, sort of kind of shrugged at the, you know, well, how much was I like Maude?

How much was I a firebrand feminist, you know, like.

Well, and she doesn't talk to you in ways that feel politically cheerleading.

She just talks to you in ways that were real.

What do you what did you make of her politics and and the way that, you know, the current political lens always tries to box things in really neatly.

I wonder where she would have been over time throughout her life, over the decades.

Well, I think that if you the segment in her one woman show that I put in there and I did it for this because of what's going on right now, in the world where she says that, we're fighting for freedom of speech.

She said, we're fighting for a woman's right to choose.

It was 2002.

So she said, you know, gay marriage is becoming legal in some states.

While the government is trying to take it away from us, and they're fighting for trans rights.

So she was purely look at it this way.

She was on stage and took that and stated those facts.

And then she said, and, so many people are full of fear, uneducated, uneducated and ignorant.

So one of the reasons I released it now is we need more warriors like her.

Because look, 20 years ago she was saying this and we're exactly back where we were then.

Yeah, fighting the same fights.

Yeah.

Some of those comments do look like they could have been taken from last week.

I, I also think it was I want to go back and watch the mod abortion up.

I want to go back and watch mod.

I just got picked up.

Yeah.

Does it make you want to?

I think I'm going to watch the pilot of Golden Girls tonight, because I love the story of how she even gets on Golden Girls and how, I mean, there's so many great little backstories in this documentary.

But I kind of want to reintroduce myself to Golden Girls.

And I want to see Maude.

I want to see these abortion episodes because it's easy now, in 2026 to go like, oh, I know how this would have gone, but this is weeks before ro.

And, you know, as Dan and the producers of the documentary tell us, this stuff happens with this two part mod episode and some stations won't carry it.

They're losing an advertiser.

Advertisers.

You know, Scott, I mean, that's a courageous thing.

I mean, I doesn't it make you want to go back and watch.

Oh yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It was interesting.

They mentioned specifically how many different stations would not pull it.

I think they said it was a lot in the South specifically.

Yeah.

Right.

And yeah, I mean, it did make me want to watch that.

I just again, wasn't familiar, but I like, especially in that era of doing something that they must have that they knew would get this reaction.

But it was important.

And I don't yeah, it definitely made me want to watch anything related to PR there and check out her stuff.

She really is such an icon.

Well, so.

And if you're not familiar with that episode.

So here's the idea.

You know, Arthur was 49, as Dan says in the trailer, when she got more, when she got mad.

Mudd's character on the show was 47.

When she finds out she's pregnant unexpectedly, she's already a grandmother.

She's got kids.

She and Walter are not thinking about starting a family anew.

And if you're thinking, who would have a kid at 47?

What is a 46 year old last year?

Let me tell you, it's a lot.

But, it's it is really an interesting, it's an interesting concept for a show today.

But imagine in the early 70s what that must have been like.

So, Dan, are you as much a mod fan as you were Golden Girls?

Yeah.

Because, when I started working for, you know, I caught up on everything I remembered being on in our house, but I was so young that I, you know, I would laugh at certain things, or I'd hear my parents laugh, but I didn't really pay attention to the storylines as much.

But then, you know, when I started working for, I thought, I better look into this and find out what it is, because, you know, like the in the movie, what, what I was so fascinated with was, you know, she moved to New York City in 1947.

And her early career, she started as a classically trained actress.

One of her first roles was Catherine and Taming of the shrew.

And that's what people Don't Don't know.

Or that she did Greek.

Greek tragedies and Greek comedies.

And for her to then end up being Dorothy Zbornak.

Right?

You know, that's a that's a big jump.

You know, and I just loved and found all of that fascinating.

Yeah.

And that I had access to it because she was sitting right across from me.

Yeah, yeah.

The the stage career that she was very serious about is a whole part of Bea Arthur.

I had no idea.

So I really appreciated that part.

And that's the early part of the documentary.

And then, of course, you got to get The Golden Girls.

We do have one clip, just in case.

And look, it's it's Connections.

We can do this.

Let's let's listen to a little bit of Bea Arthur as Dorothy.

Dorothy and why we loved her so much.

Boy, am I stuffed.

I must have sampled food from over ten caterers.

Did you find one for the banquet?

Not yet.

Oh, but I did learn that baked Alaska can actually be cooked locally.

Rose, I have an even bigger scoop for you.

Mars bars are made right here on Earth.

Thanks a lot, Rose.

Oh, this is a great Valentine's weekend.

Stuck in a hotel at a nudist camp for ten hours.

I'm sorry, Dorothy, it's all my fault.

I misunderstood the brochure.

Fun in the buff at a mountain retreat, hike, swim and play volleyball while the sun beats down on your fanny.

Call David Horowitz.

I mean, how can they get away with this misrepresentation?

They are tearing down the most important building.

And Blanche Devereaux, family history.

Oh my God, they're tearing down Mattress World.

Wait for you.

Wait till you see in the documentary.

Oh, The writer.

So when they get to the show, they get.

They literally sitting there doing table reads.

And then the the cast realizes, I don't want to give it away.

I just I thought that was really fun.

The story of the writers and working with the stars and how different the stars were.

I mean, Scott is I guess people are people.

People are very different.

Bea Arthur and Betty White very different.

It doesn't mean that they were enemies and of course, the documentary addresses this, but, very different styles.

That was a little surprising to me.

Yeah.

Any time, like, there's such an iconic show like that, it's really cool to get inside insights.

Yeah.

The relationship.

So whether it's with the writers are the two two of the main stars, two like listening and watching about their dynamic was very interesting.

And like any, you know, people who who work a job that is probably high pressure, high stress, like there was, of course, some different opinions.

But it was really, for me, fascinating to to watch those insights.

And the reason that I think Golden Girls is going to last, people will be watching it until the machines take over and we merge with them and we do something else.

It is for two reasons.

I think the writing is that good, and the documentary touches on the pressure that people felt writing for Bea Arthur, because she has very high standards.

She's very smart.

You know, she is not a typical sitcom star, but also that show in the 80s was addressing LGBTQ issues, some really hard stuff at the time in very courageous ways that apart from maybe some of the the particular language that was used, then it may not be used now.

I mean, it really seems to hold up and probably will going forward.

How do you see it?

Well, I think the machines will end up watching it, you know, I mean, you know, it's that good.

But the, one thing that, that people are always curious, curious about is that, they always want to know how they got, episodes on with, topics that the, actors and actresses were connected with and that the B and the other performers never went to the writers and say, let's talk about this.

But the writers were so good, they would ask the celebrities when they came in, what did you do over the weekend?

And if they said, oh, you know, I went to, you know, I did an Aids benefit.

I raised money for the California Center or, I did something, with one of my animal rights groups.

So they would always have this little talk on Mondays, just discussing the weekend.

And the writers then found out what was important to the actresses, and then they developed scripts around it.

That's great.

What a story.

I mean, what a series of stories.

The documentaries called Bea Arthur, the documentary.

I've done everything except porn.

Two Wednesdays from now.

Wednesday, October 28th, 7 p.m.

at the little doors are open at 630.

Little rule number one, right, Scott?

Yep.

And Dan is going to be there in person two for a Q&A tickets at the little.org or at the box office as well.

This one's going to sell out I think the little.org.

Yes.

Okay.

Hey 30s Dan Bea Arthur's legacy should be what?

That you should stay grounded on what's going on in your community and get involved.

Did it in less than three I did that is.

That's beautiful.

Hey, this is a great piece of work.

It was intensely enjoyable to watch.

As someone who was just a fan of the Dorothy character, but now I feel like I know Bea Arthur, thanks to you.

I thank you very much, Dan.

Thanks for bringing it to us, and we're looking forward to seeing you in Rochester.

Yes.

See you soon, guys.

Bye, Arthur.

The documentary.

I've done everything except porn.

Scott Pukos is the Little Theater.

Have fun with that.

Two Wednesdays from now, the 28th.

You guys are always doing some fun stuff.

Anything else you want?

You got 10s.

What else has happened at the little, spooky season?

So a ton of ton of great, scary movies come out to them.

Absolutely.

It's all the little.org, the schedule there, the little.org.

It's an institution from all of us at Connections.

Thanks for finding us wherever you're finding us.

Thanks for joining us on YouTube, listening on your terrestrial radio, streaming on the app, etc.

or on the podcast wherever you find us.

Thank you.

We're back with you tomorrow on Member supported public media.

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