NY's Education Dilemma: Budget Battles & Racial Justice

Season 2024 Episode 6 | 26m 46sVideo has Closed Captions

NY's proposed education budget & untold stories of racial justice in the Adirondacks.

Explore the intricacies of New York's education budget proposal, scrutinizing funding allocations and the ensuing debates. Plus, journey into the Adirondacks with author Amy Godine as she reveals the hidden history of black pioneers and their pursuit of racial justice.

02/09/2024 | Rating NR

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New York NOW is a local public television program presented by WMHT

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NY's Education Dilemma: Budget Battles & Racial Justice

Season 2024 Episode 6 | 26m 46sVideo has Closed Captions

02/09/2024 | Rating NR

Problems playing video? | Closed Captioning Feedback

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[ THEME MUSIC ] >> WELCOME TO "NEW YORK NOW.

" I'M DAVID LOMBARDO, HOST OF WCNY'S THE CAPITAL PRESS ROOM. ON TODAY'S PROGRAM, WE'RE GOING TO HIGHLIGHT THE BIG EDUCATION ISSUES IN ALBANY, INCLUDING THE FIGHT OVER STATE FUNDING FOR STATE SCHOOLS AND IT'S A FIGHT THAT STAKEHOLDERS DIDN'T EXPECT THEY WOULD BE IN WITH GOVERNOR KATHIE HOCHUL, WHO UPON TAKING OFFICE AS THE STATE'S CHIEF EXECUTIVE IN 2021, HAS CHAMPIONED THE LONG-AWAITED IMPLEMENTATION OF A FULLY FUNDED FOUNDATIONAL AID FORMULA WHICH IS THE WAY OF BULK OF STATE AID DOLLARS ARE DISTRIBUTED TO NEARLY 700 SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN NEW YORK. WHILE THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSING TO SPEND MORE THAN $35 BILLION ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS-- YES, THAT'S B WITH A BILLION-- A NEW RECORD AND THE HIGHEST PER-PUPIL INCREASE IN THE COUNTRY, THE INCREASE IS SHORT OF WHAT SCHOOL DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE HAD BEEN ANTICIPATING AND MORE THAN 300 DISTRICTS SAY THE PLANNED DISTRIBUTION OF FUNDS WOULD RESULT IN CUTS TO THEIR STATE AID. THE FIGHT IS FAR FROM OVER, THOUGH, WITH THE DEMOCRAT MAKE JOTTERS IN BOTH HOUSES OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE EXPECTED TO SECURE ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THE BUDGET DANCE GOES IN ALBANY. BUT HOW MUCH MORE STATE LAWMAKERS CAN SECURE FOR EDUCATION IS AN OPEN QUESTION, AS THERE IS A LOT OF DEMAND FOR STATE RESOURCES ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THE GOVERNOR PROPOSED IN HER BUDGET. ALONG WITH NEGOTIATIONS OVER PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDING WILL CONSUME A LOT OF OXYGEN AT THE CAPITOL FOR THE NEXT TWO MONTHS, IT'S NOT THE ONLY EDUCATION ISSUE ON THE TABLE FOR STATE LAWMAKERS. TO HELP MAKE SENSE OF THIS BIG PICTURE, WE'RE JOINED THIS WEEK ON THE REPORTER ROUNDTABLE BY KATELYN CORDERO, THE EDUCATION REPORTER AT THE CAPITOL FOR POLITICO NEW YORK AND AUSTIN JEFFERSON, A REPORTER FOR CITY AND STATE NEW YORK. [ THEME MUSIC ] >> WELL, KATELYN, I HOPE YOU CAN KICK THINGS OFF BY GIVING US SOME OF THE HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE GOVERNOR'S EDUCATION AID PROPOSAL, WHICH AS I MENTIONED AT THE TOP IS A 35 PLUS BILLION DOLLAR EXPENDITURE. >> YES.

SO THE EDUCATION AID PROPOSAL IS AN $825 MILLION DOLLAR INCREASE, BUT THE PART THAT HAS KIND OF CREATED SOME CONTENTIOUS DEBATES IN THE LEGISLATURE IS THAT 337 OF THE STATE'S DISTRICTS, SO THAT'S SLIGHTLY MORE THAN HALF, ARE RECEIVING $167 MILLION IN CUTS, FISCAL AID. SO THAT'S A RESULT OF HER PROPOSAL TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF DISTRICTS THAT ARE ON HOLD HARMLESS OR SOME CALL IT SAFE HARMLESS, WHICH IS A POLICY THAT PREVENTS DISTRICTS FROM USING STATE FUNDING YEAR TO YEAR. SO THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT ANTICIPATED TO BE IN THE BUDGET PROPOSAL, BUT ON TOP OF THAT, IT WAS-- THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT REQUESTED A $1.3 BILLION INCREASE, WHICH THEY DID NOT GET AND THE REASON FOR THE SMALLER NUMBER IS THE FACT THAT ON TOP OF REDUCING HOLD HARMLESS OR SAFE HARMLESS, THE GOVERNOR IS ALSO PROPOSING TO CHANGE THE WAY THE CONSUMER PRICE INDEX, OR THE INFLATION VALUE IN THE FOUNDATION NEED FORMULA, IS CALCULATED. SO RATHER THAN IT BEING CALCULATED THE WAY IT NORMALLY IS, WHICH BY SED'S PROPOSAL, IT WOULD BE-- OR THE STATE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT'S PROPOSAL, IT WOULD BE A 2.4% INCREASE INFLATION FACTOR, OR 3.8, SORRY. 3.8% FOR THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, AND THE DEPARTMENT OF BUDGET PUSHED THAT DOWN TO 2.4, WHICH IS A SIGNIFICANT DECREASE AND THAT'S RESULTING IN A $331 MILLION DECREASE IN FOUNDATION AID FOR SCHOOLS. SO THAT'S-- THAT IS THE LARGEST PART OF THE DECREASE THAT WE'RE SEEING AND WHAT DISTRICTS AND SCHOOL ADVOCATES ARE EXTREMELY UPSET ABOUT, AND THAT'S KIND OF THE-- THOSE ARE THE TWO COMPONENTS THAT ARE REALLY BEING TALKED ABOUT WITH THE-- WITH HER PROPOSALS FOR SCHOOL AID RIGHT NOW. >> AUSTIN, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE REACTION FROM EDUCATION STAKEHOLDERS AS WELL AS STATE LAWMAKERS. FOR EXAMPLE, ARE WE SEEING JUST DEMOCRATS HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THIS? IS THIS A REPUBLICAN ISSUE? WHAT IS SORT OF THE PUSHBACK, IF ANY, THAT THE GOVERNOR IS GETTING TO THIS EDUCATION PROPOSAL? >> IT'S REALLY ACROSS ALL PARTY LINES. I THINK THE MAIN ISSUE THAT LAWMAKERS ARE FEELING IS, WHY IS MY DISTRICT GETTING CUTS TO THEIR SCHOOL DISTRICTS WHEN OTHER SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE GETTING INCREASES? WHICH, I GUESS, ALMOST PLAYS INTO THE HOCHUL ADMINISTRATION, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO SEE INCREASES AND DECREASES. SO TOP LINE NUMBERS GOING UP, SO ALL IN ALL, WE'RE INCREASING AID TO SCHOOLS BUT I THINK ON THE GROUND PEOPLE ARE SEEING, OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO GET $9 MILLION LESS TO MY DISTRICT. WHY IS THAT HAPPENING? I MEAN, I BELIEVE MT.

VERNON, WESTCHESTER, THEY'RE SEEING A SLIGHT CUT IN FUNDING AND BY THE STATE'S OWN ADMISSION, THAT SCHOOL DISTRICT IS STARTING TO FAULTER FINANCIALLY. I THINK THEIR FEAR IS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE GETTING RID OF SAFE HARMLESS ON TOP OF CUTS IN THIS PROPOSED BUDGET, I MEAN, HOW BAD CAN THINGS GET FOR SOME DISTRICTS? >> SO KATELYN, WHAT IS THE IMPETUS OF THIS PROPOSAL FROM GOVERNOR KATHIE HOCHUL? BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO RUN CONTRARY TO THE EDUCATION AID PROPOSALS THAT SHE'S ADVANCED IN HER FIRST TWO BUDGETS AS GOVERNOR? >> YEAH.

SO THAT'S KIND OF BEEN THE CONFUSION, I THINK, WAS PART OF WHEN THIS BUDGET ROLL OUT, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONFUSION REGARDING WHAT SHE'S PROPOSING BECAUSE SHE HAS BEEN KIND OF A CHAMPION FOR EDUCATION. SHE HAD THESE HISTORIC INCREASES LAST YEAR, BUT SHE'S BEEN SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT-- THE INCREASES ARE NOT SUSTAINABLE, AND YOU KNOW, IN TALKING ABOUT THE BUDGET, SHE'S BEEN SAYING THAT TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FOR THE DISTRICTS ON LONG ISLAND THAT ARE SEEING CUTS SAYING THAT THEY HAVE SURPLUSES, THAT THEY NEED TO SPEND, AND THEN SHE'S ALSO BEEN TALKING ABOUT ENROLLMENT, AND WE KNOW THAT ENROLLMENT HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE IN NEW YORK STATE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS OVER THE PAST DECADE, AND SIGNIFICANTLY THERE WAS A TRANSITION DURING THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC, WHERE PARENTS WERE PUTTING THEIR KIDS INTO PRIVATE SCHOOL OR HOME SCHOOLING STUDENTS SO WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE ENROLLMENT TRENDS KIND OF COME BACK UP FROM THAT. AND SO THIS-- THIS MOVE SEEMS TO BE KIND OF OPENING DEBATE OVER HOW DO WE SOLVE FOR THESE ENROLLMENT ISSUES IN THE STATE AND HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD KNOWING THAT WE CAN'T SUSTAIN THESE LEVELS OF FUNDING? NOW, EVERYONE IN, YOU KNOW, ADVOCATES IN THE EDUCATION WORLD, THEY AGREE THAT WE DO NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION TO THE FOUNDATION AID FORMULA, WHICH IS BASED ON SOME OF THE COMPONENTS ARE FROM THE 2000 CENSUS, THE POVERTY DATA, WHICH IS INACCURATE. SO ASPECTS OF IT NEED TO BE CHANGED BUT THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT IS SAYING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE OVER THREE TO FOUR YEARS AND NOT OVER THE COURSE OF ONE YEAR AND ALSO PULLING OUT HOLD HARMLESS OR SAFE HARMLESS IN A WAY THAT IS JUST VERY SUDDEN WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE RAMIFICATIONS. >> SO NOT TO DATE MYSELF HERE, BUT THIS IS MY 13TH OR 14TH STATE BUDGET AND OVER THAT TIME, WE'VE SEEN PROPOSALS FROM THE GOVERNORS. THERE WAS CUOMO AND NOW HOCHUL, AND THE LEGISLATURE, WHETHER IT WAS REPUBLICANS IN THE STATE SENATE AND DEMOCRATS IN THE ASSEMBLY OR NOW DEMOCRATS IN BOTH HOUSES, COMING OVER THE TOP WITH THEIR OWN EDUCATION AID PROPOSALS AND THEN FINALLY, THEY HAMMER OUT SOMETHING THAT IS ABOVE WHAT THE GOVERNOR INITIALLY PROPOSED. KATELYN, ARE YOU ANTICIPATING THAT SAME SORT OF TWO-STEP, THREE-STEP DANCE TO PLAY OUT HERE? IS IT LIKELY THAT A FINAL BUDGET DEAL IS GONNA HAVE A DOLLAR AMOUNT IN EXCESS OF WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS PROPOSING? >> SO I THINK TYPICALLY THE GOVERNOR GOES LOWER. THE LEGISLATURE GOES HIGHER. SO WE'LL SEE A HIGHER NUMBER IN THOSE HOUSE BILLS COMING FROM THE ASSEMBLY AND THE SENATE, AND THEN THEY TYPICALLY MEET SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE, BUT IT IS GOING TO THE-- THE ISSUE HERE IS THAT WE'VE SEEN THE GOVERNOR DELIVER TWO LATE BUDGETS BACK TO BACK, AND SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENTS NEED TO GET A VOTE ON THEIR BUDGETS AND THEY NEED TO PUT OUT SO THEIR VOTERS -- INFORM THEIR VOTERS ON WHAT THEIR BUDGET IS GOING TO LOOK FOR, LOOK LIKE. SO IF THEY DON'T HAVE AN IDEA OF, OH, IS IT GOING TO BE THIS HIGHER END OF THE SCOPE? IS IT GOING TO BE THIS LOWER END? WHAT IS THE MIDDLE GROUND GOING TO LOOK LIKE? ARE THEY STILL GOING TO HAVE CUTS? ARE WE GOING TO SEE ANY INCREASES? THERE'S A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY AND WITH ALL THE SUPERINTENDENTS THAT I'VE TALKED TO, THEY'RE REALLY IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION ESPECIALLY IF THE PRECEDENT THAT HAS BEEN SET WITH LATE BUDGETS BACK TO BACK, IF THAT CONTINUES, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT COME, YOU KNOW, TIME FOR THEM TO INFORM VOTERS ON WHAT THEY'RE PROPOSING. >> SO WE'VE BEEN TALK EDUCATION AID DOLLARS IN THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS IF NOT THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, BUT THERE IS SOME EDUCATION MONEY IN THIS BUDGET IN A MUCH SMALLER CONTEXT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT $10 MILLION THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL IS ADVANCING FOR A NEW LITERACY INITIATIVE. AUSTIN, CAN YOU TALK US WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS HOPING TO ACCOMPLISH IN TERMS OF MAKING AN INVESTMENT IN INCREASING EARLY LITERACY RATES? >> I MEAN, IT'S MAYBE IT'S BEEN TALKED TO DEATH A BIT. I MEAN, THERE'S BEEN LEARN LOSS AS A RESULT OF THE PANDEMIC AND THERE'S REAL FEARS THAT KIDS IN SCHOOLS TODAY, ESPECIALLY NEW YORK, ARE GOING TO SEE REAL SETBACKS AS FAR AS THEIR ABILITY TO COMPREHEND WORDS. SO I THINK THE IDEA IS RATHER THAN-- IT'S AN ANACHRONISTIC TERM AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU KNOW, USING A HOOKED-ON PHONICS, APPROACH, SORT OF TEACHING THE KIDS WHAT AND WHY TO WORDS WHEN THEY LEARN TO READ, RATHER THAN THROW THROWING THEM LITERATURE AND LETTING THEM DISCOVER THAT AND GUIDING THAT. I THINK SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE RISING OUT OF THAT, THOUGH, IS TEACHERS IN SOME DISTRICTS AND SOME PARENTS, TOO, THEY ARE A LITTLE BIT WORRIED ABOUT NOT HAVING AUTONOMY IN THE CLASSROOM TO MEET KIDS' SPECIFIC NEEDS. I MEAN, IT'S SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN THAT THIS APPROACH DOES WORK A BIT BETTER THAN THINGS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST. I THINK THERE ARE FEARS THAT KIDS WON'T GET THAT SPECIALIZED SORT OF STRATEGY FOR WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THEM AS THEY LEARN TO READ. >> KATELYN, AS I MENTIONED THIS IS A $10 MILLION PROPOSAL. SO IS IT THAT BIG OF A DEAL, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT A BUDGET THAT'S GOT $35 BILLION IN IT? IS THIS REALLY A MASSIVE SEA CHANGE IN HOW WE'RE EDUCATING KIDS? >> I THINK IT'S A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE STATE BUDGET. WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS $10 MILLION THAT'S GOING TO TRAIN 20,000 TEACHERS, AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO IMPLEMENT BEST PRACTICES SO THAT'S WHERE THE REAL CHANGE IS GONNA COME. THEY'RE GOING TO IMPLEMENT BEST PRACTICES THAT DISTRICTS THEN HAVE TO IMPLEMENT INTO THEIR SCHOOLS BY 2025, AND THAT HAS TO BE APPROVED BY THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SO I THINK THAT'S KIND OF WHERE YOU HAVE THE REAL CHANGE THAT WILL COME. I MEAN, THE $10 MILLION WILL BE USED FOR TRAINING AND THEN ALSO FOR MICRO CREDENTIALS FOR TEACHERS, BUT IN TERMS OF THE IMPLEMENTATION, THE TEACHERS UNIONS TEND TO PUSH BACK ON ANY SORT OF MANDATE ON THINGS LIKE THIS. SO THE WAY THEY HAVE DONE IT IS THAT THERE STILL IS LOCAL CONTROL, BUT THEY HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE BEST PRACTICES PUT OUT BY SED, AND THEY HAVE TO BE APPROVED. >> WELL, YOU MENTIONED THE TEACHERS UNION AND WITH A MINUTE OR SO WE HAVE LEFT, YOU REPORTED A LITTLE BIT ON THE ONGOING NEGOTIATIONS OVER TEACHER EVALUATIONS, SOMETHING THAT'S KIND OF HAPPENING BELOW THE RADAR RIGHT NOW AS WE TALK ABOUT DOLLAR AMOUNTS. WHAT IS AT ISSUE RIGHT THERE WITH THE POTENTIAL FUTURE OF TEACHER EVALUATIONS? YOU GOT ABOUT A MINUTE. >> YES.

SO THEY ARE -- THERE IS NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON, AND I THINK THERE'S A HOPE THAT THEY CAN GET THIS PUT INTO THE BUDGET TO DO AN OVERHAUL OF THE TEACHER EVALUATION SYSTEM. IT WOULD HAVE MORE LOCAL CONTROLS, SO SCHOOL DISTRICTS WOULD BE ABLE TO CREATE A NEW SYSTEM AND THEN IT WOULD HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, BUT THE TIME LINE FOR HOW THAT'S GOING TO BE ROLLED OUT AND THE TRANSITION PERIOD IS STILL BEING NEGOTIATED AND TALKED ABOUT. SOMETHING WE ANTICIPATED WOULD BE AGREED UPON IN LAST SESSION. BUT AT THE END OF THE SESSION, THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO GET IT TO THE FINISH LINE. SO WE'RE HOPING-- THEY'RE HOPING TO SEE IT PUT INTO THE BUDGET, BUT IF NOT, THEN IT WILL BE ITS OWN LEGISLATION. >> UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE TODAY. WE'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH AUSTIN JEFFERSON OF CITY AND STATE NEW YORK, AS WELL AS KATELYN CORDERO OF POLITICO NEW YORK. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US. >> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE. >> THANK YOU. [ THEME MUSIC ] >> AND MAKE SURE TO CHECK IN EVERY WEEK WITH "NEW YORK NOW" AS WE BRING YOU UPDATES ON EDUCATION ISSUES WE JUST TALKED ABOUT AS WELL AS OTHER NEWS AND ANALYSIS FROM THE STATE CAPITOL. YOU CAN ALSO VISIT OUR WEBSITE FOR DAILY UPDATES AT NYNOW.ORG, BUT NOW WE'RE GOING TO TURN TO A CONVERSATION WITH AMY GODINE, AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, "THE BLACK WOODS," WHICH REVEALS THE UNKNOWN STORY OF THE BLACK PIONEERS IN THE ADIRONDACKS. THE STORY FOCUSES ON GARRETT SMITH, AN UPSTATE ABOLITIONIST IN THE 1800S AND HERE IS AMY GODINE'S INTERVIEW WITH MY COLLEAGUE, DAN CLARK. >> AMY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE. I APPRECIATE IT. >> I AM SO GLAD TO BE HERE. THANK YOU. >> OF COURSE, ANYTIME. SO THIS IS JUST SUCH AN INTERESTING BOOK, AND I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING AREA THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT AND HAVE NEVER LOOKED INTO. >> UH-HUH. >> AND YOU HAVE 500 PASSION, INCLUDING APPENDIXES OF JUST RESEARCHES AND THIS STORY THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT. AT THE SAME TIME THIS IS A TIME IN NEW YORK HISTORY THAT IS KIND OF CONFLICTED A LITTLE BIT, WHERE YOU HAVE THIS MOVEMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE BEING DONATED THIS LAND TO GO INTO THE ADIRONDACKS BUT YOU ALSO HAVE PRO-SLAVERY INTERESTS IN NEW YORK. THIS WAS THE 1840S, '50S, AROUND THAT TIME. DID YOU FEEL THAT TENSION WHILE YOU WERE WRITING IT AS THESE OPPOSING FORCES? >> WELL, THE OPPOSING FORCES ARE REALLY WHAT GAVE RISE TO THE IDEA FOR GARRETT SMITH'S GIVEAWAY IN THE FIRST PLACE. HE COULD SEE THAT AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION IN NEW YORK IN 1846, PRO-SLAVERY INTERESTS WOULD DOMINATE AND CALL THE SHOTS AND ONCE AGAIN, THERE WOULD BE A 25-YEAR-OLD VOTER RESTRICTION IMPOSED ON BLACK MEN ALONE BECAUSE OF BUSINESS INTERESTS, IN GOOD PART, THAT WANTED TO FAVOR PRO-SLAVERY CONCERNS IN THE SOUTH. >> IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY. BECAUSE WHEN I WAS READING THE PREFACE OF THE BOOK, THAT DIDN'T POP OUT IMMEDIATELY, BUT WHEN IT DID COME THERE IN THE BOOK, I THOUGHT THAT WAS SO INTERESTING. AND THAT'S JUST A SMALL PART OF THIS VERY LARGER STORY THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN. I WANT YOU TO DESCRIBE IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHAT YOU SEE WHAT THIS BOOK IS ABOUT. >> IT'S ABOUT GARRETT SMITH, HIMSELF, WHO GAVE THE LAND AWAY, 120,000 ACRES TO 3,000 BLACK NEW YORKERS IN 1846 AND '47. HE CALLED IT A SCHEME OF JUSTICE AND BENEVOLENCE AND THAT WAS APTLY NAMED. HIS IDEA WAS TO EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD. >> HMM. >> AND FAVOR VERY POOR BLACK MEN, MOSTLY FROM METROPOLITAN NEW YORK, WITH GIFTS OF LAND IN THE ADIRONDACKS, WHICH IF THEY WORKED THEM AND BROUGHT THEM UP TO VALUE, COULD MEET THE PROPERTY RESTRICTION REQUIREMENT IN ORDER TO VOTE. IF THEY COULDN'T VOTE, THEY COULDN'T EXPRESS ANTI-SLAVERY SENTIMENTS. THEY COULDN'T EXPECT REPRESENTATION OF THEIR CONCERNS. POLITICALLY, THEY WERE INVISIBLE. THEY WERE MOOT. THIS WAS A WAY TO GAIN BLACK NEW YORK A VOICE. >> WHICH IS SUCH LIKE A-- WHICH HEARD ABOUT THIS BOOK FIRST, I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST ABOUT THIS SETTLEMENT MOVEMENT IN THE ADIRONDACKS TO SEE THIS POLITICAL INSPIRATION BEHIND IT WAS SO INTERESTING TO ME, THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT LAYERS AS TO WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THAT TIME. >> THAT'S THE PART OF THE STORY THAT I DIDN'T SEE COMING. WHEN I STARTED TO FIRST RESEARCH IT, I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST A SETTLEMENT STORY AND A VERY SMALL STORY AT THAT. WHEN I DUG INTO WHAT INSPIRED SMITH AND ALL OF THE BLACK REFORMERS WHO CAME ON BOARD TO HELP HIM WITH THIS EFFORT, IT WAS A POLITICAL STORY AND IT WAS A STORY OF BLACK ENFRANCHISEMENT AND BLACK EMPOWERMENT AND BLACK PROPERTY OWNERSHIP. I LOVE THOSE THINGS. >> IRONY OF YOU AND I, TWO WHITE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THIS VERY DEEP BLACK HISTORY IN THE ADIRONDACKS IS NOT LOST ON ME. >> UH-HUH. >> HOW DID YOU BALANCE THAT WHILE YOU WERE WRITING THE BOOK ABOUT THIS BLACK HISTORY? HOW DID YOU APPROACH THAT? >> I ASSURED MYSELF THAT HISTORY CHANGES EVERY MINUTE AND EVEN BEFORE MY BOOK WENT TO THE PRESS I WAS LEARNING THINGS I WISHED I HAD INCLUDED WHATEVER I WRITE WILL BE SUPERSEDED VERY QUICKLY BY OTHER VOICES BRINGING THEIR OWN SINGULAR PERSPECTIVES TO THIS, AND THAT'S GOING TO INCLUDE MANY MORE BLACK VOICES THAT HAVE TAKEN THIS UP BEFORE, AND I'M EXCITED FOR THAT DISPLACEMENT. [LAUGHTER] I HOPE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN A YEAR. I HOPE I GET TEN OR MORE OUT OF MY BOOK, BUT I CAN SEE THIS COMING. ABSOLUTELY. I WELCOME IT. >> YEAH, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, YOUR BOOK IS KIND OF ONE OF THE FIRST OF ITS KIND. IT'S EXCITING FOR ME TO THINK THAT, YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS WILL INSPIRE MORE AND MORE RESEARCH INTO THIS. >> YEAH. >> WE CAN FIND OUT MORE AND MORE ABOUT THIS RICH HISTORY IN THE ADIRONDACKS THAT WE JUST DON'T KNOW ALL THAT MUCH ABOUT. YOU WRITE IN THE PREFACE OF THE BOOK THAT THE RESEARCH WAS GOING TO BE QUITE A HURDLE TO OVERCOME. THAT BEING SO LONG AGO, THERE ISN'T A LOT OF TANGIBLE EVIDENCE. >> THERE'S NOTHING. THERE'S ZIPPO. >> WHERE DO YOU START? >> YOU GO TO PAPER. I MEAN, YOU LOOK ON THE GROUND. THERE'S NO MATERIAL CULTURE LEFT ON THE GROUND. THERE ARE NO CABINS. THERE ARE NO BARNS. THERE ARE HARDLY WALLS. YOU CAN MAYBE SEE SOME SINK HOLES WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BELONGED TO GRANTEES BECAUSE MOST OF GRANTEES WHO CAME, AND NOT MANY DID, DIDN'T SETTLE ON THE LAND THEY WERE GIVEN. LIKE ALL ADIRONDACKERS WHO GO UP THERE AND LOOK AT LAND, THEY MOVED TO BETTER LAND AS SOON AS THEY COULD FIND IT. THEY DID THAT, TOO SO I WENT TO THE ARCHIVAL RECORDS AND TO SMITH'S CORRESPONDENCE WHICH WAS ENORMOUS AND TO TAX RECORDS, LEGAL DOCUMENTS, POLL LISTS, SCHOOL RECORDS, MILITARY PENSION FILES, A HUGE SOURCE OF INFORMATION, TAX ROLLS DOWN IN NEW YORK STATE ARCHIVES THAT DESCRIBED RELATIONS BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE NEIGHBORS AND THAT WAS A WORLD OF INFORMATION. >> YEAH.

ONE THING THAT I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT IS THE ELIGIBILITY THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE WE STARTED RECORDING. >> UH-HUH. >> AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT DURING THIS INTERVIEW, GARRETT SMITH DONATED THIS LAND TO 3,000 BLACK NEW YORKERS TO POSSIBLY COME SETTLE. HOW WERE THEY CHOSEN? BECAUSE THERE MUST HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 3,000 PEOPLE HERE. >> WELL, YEAH. YOU BET.

HE HAD A HUGE NETWORK IN THE BLACK REFORM ACTIVIST COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK. MOSTLY IN CITIES AND AMONG WHITE ABOLITIONISTS, TOO. AND HE PICKED 13 REFORMERS, WHITE AND BLACK. MOST OF THEM BLACK, TO HELP HIM PICK ELIGIBLE GRANTEES. HE STRICT RULES OF ELIGIBILITY WHICH THEY SHARED AND THEY WERE EVIDENT POVERTY, LANDLESSNESS, PHYSICAL FITNESS TO DO THIS. THEY HAD TO BE BETWEEN 20 AND 60, GOOD CHARACTER, AND TEMPERANCE-ABIDING ETHIC. SO THEY DID NOT DRINK. NO DRINKING WAS ALLOWED. THAT WAS A STICKING POINT. >> OH. >> FOR MANY POTENTIAL GRANTEES WHO DID RESENT BEING TOLD HOW TO LIVE AND DIDN'T WANT THIS STRUCTURE IMPOSING ON THEIR LIFE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY PARTOOK OF GIN OR WHATEVER. YEAH. >> YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW-- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MOST, BUT A LOT OF THE GRANTEES DIDN'T ACTUALLY COME UP TO THE ADIRONDACKS AND SETTLE. >> HARDLY ANY DID. >> THEY HAD THE LAND DEED BUT NEVER WENT UP. WHY WAS THAT? WAS IT BECAUSE OF RULES AND ELIGIBILITY LIKE THAT? >> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION. THERE WERE SEVERAL THEORIES ABOUT THAT. I'LL GIVE YOU TWO AND THEN I'LL GIVE YOU MINE. THE FIRST ONE THAT HISTORIANS PROMOTED-- AND BOTH THESE THEORIES ARE RACIALIZED. ONE IS THAT THEY HAD TO BE FUGITIVES BECAUSE GARRETT SMITH HAD SUCH INTIMATE DEALINGS WITH FUGITIVE INTEREST HELPING PEOPLE SELF-EMANCIPATE, BUYING THE FREEDOM OF SLAVES HE MET IN WASHINGTON, BUILDING AN ANTI-SLAVERY POLITICAL PARTY, THE LIBERTY PARTY IN NEW YORK. THAT'S HOW PEOPLE KNEW HIM, THE FRIEND OF THE SLAVE. AND THOSE HISTORIANS SAID THAT THE GRANTEES WHO CAME UP BEING EX-SLAVES, BEING SOUTHERN, LACKED THE CAPACITY TO HANDLE THE COLD. THEY WERE USED TO THE SUNNY SOUTH, AND THEY COULDN'T HACK IT UP HERE. THEY WERE AFRICAN AND USED TO FULL FORCE SUN ALL THE TIME AND THEY COULDN'T MANAGE THE WEATHER. THE HISTORIAN WHO DID A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH AND REALIZED THAT SMITH ACTUALLY WAS GIVEN LAND TO BLACK NEW YORKERS-- >> RIGHT. >> BLAMED IT ON THEIR CITY HABITS OF SOFT LIVING AND JOBS LIKE BARBERING OR TAILORING OR WAITING TABLES, AND THAT THEY WERE UNFITTED FOR THE RIGORS OF THE ADIRONDACK WILDERNESS FOR THAT REASON. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE JOB SKILLS. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE STRENGTHS OR THE PLANNING FORSIGHT AND BOTH EXPLANATIONS UNDERSCORED BLACK INCAPACITY AND UNFITTEDNESS TO THE REGION, WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT POINT IN ITS OWN RIGHT THAT WILL LAST FOREVER IN ADIRONDACK HISTORY, THE IDEA OF WHO BELONGS AND WHO DOESN'T TO THE REGION. MY REASONING IS A LITTLE MORE SIMPLE. I LOOK AT WHAT AGRICULTURAL HISTORIANS HAVE TOLD US ABOUT WHAT IT COST TO MOVE TO THE FRONTIER IN THE MID-19TH CENTURY. IT COST $1,500. THESE GRANTEES DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT KIND OF MONEY. >> RIGHT. >> NEITHER DID WHITE LABORERS FOR THAT MATTER, AND THEY COULDN'T AFFORD THE MOVE. IT WAS SIMPLY BEYOND THEIR MEANS. IF THEY HAD THAT KIND OF MONEY, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ELIGIBLE FOR THE GIFT OF LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE. SO SMITH GRIEVOUSLY MISUNDERSTOOD THE DEPTH OF BLACK POVERTY AT THIS TIME. THAT WAS A FATAL MISTAKE. >> SO I DON'T WANT TO SPOIL THE ENTIRE BACK FOR OUR AUDIENCE. I THINK THERE IS A LOT IN THERE FOR THEM TO EXPLORE. >> SURE. >> A NAME THAT KEPT POPPING UP AGAIN AND AGAIN AS I EXPLORED YOUR BOOK IS FREDERICK DOUGLAS. >> UH-HUH. >> TELL ME HOW HE PLAYS INTO THIS. I MEAN, THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN AMERICAN HISTORY. >> IT IS.

HE WAS ALL IN IN THE BEGINNING. WHEN HE MOVED TO NEW YORK FROM BOSTON, HE MOVES TO ROCHESTER AND GARRETT SMITH, WHO REALLY ADMIRES HIS ORATORY, HIS POLITICS AND HIS VISION, AND THEY WERE COMPLETELY ON BOARD WITH ABOLITIONISM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, GIVES HIM A GRANT OF LAND TO WELCOME HIM TO NEW YORK STATE. SMITH-- I MEAN, DOUGLAS IS DELIGHTED. HE STARTED THIS NEW NEWSPAPER. HE STARTS TO SUPPORT THIS VERY STRONGLY IN THE PAPER, URGING THE GRANTEES TO MOVE, SETTING THEM UP WITH A SURVEYOR WHO TURNS OUT NOT TO BE SO GREAT, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. AND THEN GETTING ANXIOUS WHEN THE EXODUS DOESN'T OCCUR AND POINTING OUT THAT THEY NEED MONEY, THEY NEED HELP, BUT HE DOESN'T, IT SEEMS TO ME, APPROACH GARRETT SMITH DIRECTLY AND SAY, CAN YOU HELP THEM AT THIS POINT WITH MONEY GIFTS AS WELL AS LAND? THEY CAN'T MAKE THAT NEXT HURDLE IF THEY AREN'T CAPITALIZED AT THE OUTSET. A FEW YEARS IN, HE'S DISENVOWED BLACK FARMING COMPLETELY AND SAYS IN A LETTER, FOR WHATEVER REASON, BLACK CITY PEOPLE ARE JUST NOT INTERESTED IN FARMING, SO I DON'T SUPPORT A FULL-BORE FARMING EFFORT OF ANY KIND, SO HE BACKS AWAY, WHICH IS THE LAST THING THE GRANTEES ON THE FRONTIER WANT TO READ IN THEIR FAVORITE NEWSPAPER, THEIR BEST CHAMPION SORT OF CUTTING THEM OFF. >> IT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING STORY AND I LOVE IT EVEN MORE BECAUSE IT'S PART OF OUR STATE'S HISTORY. >> ME TOO. >> I LOVE NEW YORK. AMY GODINE, THE AUTHOR OF "THE BLACK WOODS," FROM CORNELL UNIVERSITY PRESS. THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU. [ THEME MUSIC ] >> AND THAT WAS MY CAPITOL COLLEAGUE DAN CLARK, SPEAKING WITH AMY GODINE, THE AUTHOR OF "THE BLACK WOODS," PURSUING RACIAL JUSTICE ON THE ADIRONDACK FRONTIER. WELL, THAT ABOUT DOES IT FOR US HERE AT "NEW YORK NOW" THIS WEEK. IF YOU MISSED ANY OF TODAY'S PROGRAM, WANT TO REVISIT PAST EPISODES OR EXPLORE OUR WEB EXTRAS, CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE. AGAIN, THAT'S NYNOW.ORG. I'M DAVID LOMBARDO. FOR ALL OF US AT WMHT, THANKS FOR WATCHING THIS WEEK'S EDITION OF "NEW YORK NOW.

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