>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour will be made in New York State classrooms from kindergarten to 12th grade, starting in the fall of 2027.

The New York State Board of Regents recently approved new requirements.

Public school classrooms will integrate climate education, and that will include the causes of climate change, the impact of climate change, and even possible solutions, according to members of the board.

New York becomes only the second state in the nation to require this kind of climate education in its public schools.

New Jersey being the first.

But what exactly are the solutions to climate change?

What should students know about how to solve it and who sets the standards?

Now?

Critics have said for years that schools should stay out of this, and a number of states, mostly contiguous southern states, but not only those states have said that they want schools to stay out of climate change as an issue, especially when it comes to solutions.

Two controversial, they argue too many different opinions on what to do about climate change.

Well, our guests are closely involved in the process.

They are.

And they're all educators in one form or fashion, and they've got a lot to say about these new standards and how we teach students.

So let's talk about that.

Joining us in studio Dollinger, Don Haas is with us.

Don is director of teacher programming at the Paleontological Research Institution, center for Climate Change Education.

Don, welcome back to the program.

>> Thanks.

It's great to be back.

>> And next to Don, welcome to Dr.

Orlando Marrero, Orlando's director of steam for the West Irondequoit Central School District.

First of all, welcome.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thank you.

Happy to be here.

>> Remind us what steam stands for.

>> Steam is a science engineering, technology, arts and mathematics.

So I oversee curriculum instruction for all those content areas.

>> Very good.

It's great to have you in studio with us.

Thank you very much.

And on the line with us joining us remotely, doctor Joseph Henderson is a lecturer at the University of Vermont, member of the school board for the Saranac Lake Central School District.

Joseph, welcome back to the program.

>> Hey, Evan, how are you?

>> Very good.

And hello to Kelli Grabowski, who is a science teacher at the Salamanca Central School District.

Kelly, thank you for being with us as well.

>> Thanks, Evan.

>> So three of the four of our guests are members of the Climate and Resilience Education Task Force, and put in a lot of work to get this over the finish line.

Don, briefly, what is that task force?

>> So that's a task force that's funded by the National Wildlife Federation.

And coordinated by Emily Fano started in New York City working on climate change education, getting climate change education into the New York City public schools, and has spread across the state.

I think I've been involved for about four years.

did a lot of lobbying trips to Albany a few years ago.

and I'll say initially started working effectively against the New York State Education Department, but we kind of came around to work with them which is, which is much better.

and Joe and, and Kelly have been with, with me through most of that time.

And and last week, two weeks ago, two weeks ago they passed the requirement that climate change be taught across the grade span.

And there's more we'll talk about, about the specifics of that in a bit.

I'm guessing.

>> Nobody who works on climate education ever stops and celebrates because it just feels like this existential dread and a lot of hard work.

But for a moment, was this a we got this over the line celebration?

For you?

>> Yes.

Yeah, it was very very good feeling.

A lot of hard work.

a lot of time went into this and it feels good to actually have it on the books and have an expectation that all kids in K-12 schools in New York State are going to be getting some climate change education and ramping it up from what they're getting now, if they're getting anything now.

>> So before we jump in with the all four of our guests about what they want to see, students taught why they think this matters and why they think that the critics who say it's either too controversial or too difficult to settle on a set of standards for this issue, why they think that's wrong.

But I want to talk about the backdrop of what's going on right now.

First of all, in this country.

I get it.

We're in the northeast.

A lot of people are excited about some warm spring weather, and we're going to have warm ish spring weather compared to the rest of the country.

But if you're in 90% of the country right now for the next week or ten days, there's going to be records in unbelievable sections of the country.

I don't mean like a one day record in one state.

There are meteorologists in Europe who are just gawking at what's happening in this country with the heat dome, and it's going to set all kinds of records.

Meteorologist Greg Gallina of the National Weather Service's Weather Prediction Center said, quote, basically the entire U.S.

is going to be hot.

The area of record temperatures is extremely large.

That's the thing that's really bizarre about this, is how large an area and how long it's lasting.

So it's, it's a, it is not a one time or one day thing.

And it's, it's extreme.

That's what we talk about with extreme events here that's happening now.

Also happening now, of course, there's there's a war in Iran.

There's an energy crisis that is really just getting started because of that war.

There's all kinds of questions about where energy is going to come from, what forces this is going to move or mobilize, but certainly, you know, the folks who work on climate policy have said you don't wait for a crisis to realize, you know, then you want to reroute your energy policy.

So there's so much that's happening literally today that would be relevant, I think, in a lot of classrooms.

So let me start with Don.

I'm going to ask all four of you this.

Do you think that K through 12, there can be a uniform set of way of the standards for teaching climate that enough people will agree on?

I mean, you're always going to have critics.

I'm Joseph knows that, especially as a school board member.

I'm sure we'll talk about that, but I'm talking about even within climate action, can you can you satisfy the people who would say, well, we need more emphasis here.

We need more emphasis there.

Can you these standards work K through 12 in the state.

Done.

>> Yes, I think so.

And it's generally not going to actually produce new standards, but teach the existing standards with an eye towards climate change.

So that's fairly obvious in the science classroom.

And I don't, I can say a lot about that, but in the social studies classroom, you know, we started taking stuff out of the ground and burning it for the industrial revolution.

And whenever we change how we get energy, we change history.

And it's such a rich vein to tap into in the existing standards that teachers often are not doing, in part because they weren't taught about it themselves and in part lots, lots of in parts in part because they don't want to get them selves into controversy and and of course, the American teaching forces, like Americans writ large some substantial percentage of them align with climate change denial, as in, as in the American population.

And of course, in mathematics, there's ample opportunity for connecting to climate change.

And my one of my whipping boys or something is that we don't teach scale very well.

Okay.

and you need to understand the difference between a thousand, a million, a billion and a trillion to make sense of climate change and energy issues.

And most of us, frankly, don't get that.

I do an activity in a lot of our workshops where I put zero on a post-it note on one corner of the front wall of the room and a trillion on the other, and give everybody a post-it note and ask them to put where they think a billion goes between 0 and 1 trillion.

And the average answer is somewhere around 300 billion.

it should be a thousandths of the way across that distance.

And we just don't get that.

And I can talk about that for a long time.

No.

Me too.

>> I think we struggle with scale when it comes to money.

Yes.

When it comes to space.

Yep.

literally we could pick a lot of different things, but I, I take the point there.

And so Orlando, when it comes to the teachers that you work with, if they are, I don't know, nervous is the right word, but just if there's any apprehension about teaching this, have you have you heard it?

Have you seen it?

Or is there excitement about teaching this?

>> Not yet.

You won't hear a whole lot from teachers, because I think they are happy to wait for guidance.

Okay.

and so I've, I've been tasked with doing a lot of the thinking on this first so that we can provide a little bit more of a guidepost for them.

I can tell you that I've had conversations with seven, 12 teachers who are perfectly comfortable with this, this content and they're happy to make modifications and they believe that this is important.

I was talking to Don earlier.

I think the challenges and the nervousness will probably come more from your case.

teachers because they're not necessarily like specialists when it comes to this topic.

so they're going to need a lot of help in not just like learning and understanding the science, but also having rich resources that they can use with kids so that kids have meaningful experiences that they feel comfortable, either running or that they have a community partner that helps them run.

>> Well, let's talk to a teacher.

Kelli Grabowski is a science teacher at the Salamanca teaching what age?

Kelly.

>> I teach mostly 10th graders.

I do have a class of 11th and 12th graders for environmental science this year, too.

Okay.

And yeah.

Go ahead.

>> Oh, no.

So take me through, first of all, your thoughts on kind of the boldness of this effort.

Again, New York State becomes only the second state in the country with K through 12 climate standards that are going to go into effect in 2027, but also whether you think your colleagues who teach are going to embrace that and be ready to do that.

>> Yeah.

I am very happy that New York State has jumped on this.

I think it is long overdue.

I'm I can't believe that so many states haven't.

it's been something I've been teaching for at least a decade now.

Don's helped a lot with that.

And so as far as being happy to wait on guidance, I know a lot of teachers do feel that way.

I couldn't wait any longer for this to be a mandate.

I've been teaching it as a part of my earth science curriculum for, like I said, at least a decade.

Gosh, it's definitely more than that at this point.

the current earth science standards definitely lend themselves to teaching climate change in them.

my concern when it comes to colleagues is that beyond earth science and biology I don't know how many people are going to be comfortable with teaching it.

So whether it's six through 12 or K through six, I think outside of the science world, it's a little bit rare to hear teachers talking about climate change, but the main points like it's real.

We can't really argue that anymore.

That's taught in science class.

it's serious.

You can definitely touch on in science class too.

But when we start to look at what we can do about it, that starts to get into your social studies classes.

when we look at how society needs to make decisions based on the science.

>> So let me bring in Joseph Henderson who is teaching at higher ed, but is a school board member at for Saranac Lake Central School District and has been thinking and working on climate change education for years now.

So to Keli's point there what do you, are you worried, Joseph, that the K to six is going to be an uphill battle?

Do you think educators will embrace it?

Do you frankly think parents in rural counties and rural areas like yours will embrace this?

>> Yeah.

so thank you, Evan.

I think the, the research actually is pretty clear that a majority of Americans and a majority of people in New York state believe in climate science, or I shouldn't even say believe it, accept climate science.

think that it is in the purview of schools to teach reality.

which is the thing that I don't know, those of us who are in the scholarly community seem to still care about truth and reality.

And so so those things when you start to look at those numbers across New York state, you know, 60, 70, 80% of people, according to Yale climate opinion surveys, think this is an issue and think that it's well within the purview of public education to address that issue.

Right?

So, you know, will there be resistance?

Yeah, probably.

some of my own research published empirical research where we did surveys of teachers.

we found that some of that resistance was really overwrought.

And so I think, you know, there's this perception that there's more resistance out there than there actually is.

one of the things we know just from social science research is that most people really are concerned about climate science or climate change.

and don't know kind of what to do about it.

And so you know, the educational system is one important lever for adapting to climate change.

And frankly, we're behind in the United States, we're behind other countries.

I study education policy in the U.S.

because of, because of many things that we can go into if you want to we are lagging in terms of the rest of the world.

New York state now joins New Jersey in terms of interdisciplinary K-12 climate education.

where this occurs in the handful of other states, it tends to be primarily a science topic, which is important, but insufficient.

And so I think the education system is one place to do this work.

there are lots of other places to do climate education work that in some ways are more immediate.

but yeah, teachers are going to struggle with this.

Back to your question, because many of them haven't had training in climate education or environmental education, we don't have a kind of statewide environmental education teacher training program that exists in other states like Maryland and Washington.

and so there's a lot of conversation, you know, one, I think context that's important to understand for your listeners is that New York State is in the process of changing its graduation requirements, which I'm as a parent and former teacher and school board member.

totally in favor of we are moving towards the Board of Regents is moving towards a much more holistic kind of education and really moving away from the kind of high stakes testing regime that has dominated education for the last few decades, which has frankly caused a lot of damage to children and teachers and has has meant that we're not really focusing on issues of concern to communities like we know that climate change is stressful to kids.

And one of the things that that helps alleviate some of that stress is actually doing things about it, learning about it from trusted adults, and taking action in your community.

And so while I think there's going to be a lot of growing pains with this, there's also a lot of really interesting opportunities that I think a lot of us are really excited for.

>> So let me follow that point with Joseph and ask all of our guests about the branch of this that I think, again, may have some controversy.

And look, if this were in Florida or Alabama, and I'm not stereotyping, I'm actually looking at the list of states that seek to limit, to actually limit what teachers are saying and can say in classrooms about climate change, that'd be a whole different story.

I'm talking about the kind of controversy that comes from the folks who might say, yes.

Tell me about the causes.

Yes.

Tell me about the impacts.

But teaching the solutions is where it gets dicey.

New York State is is in the midst of quite a policy fight about energy, about climate issues.

Governor Hochul is is, I think, to put it mildly, from the communications I've had with people in climate action in the last week, not held in the highest regard right now, because, I mean, we'll talk about that probably next week on this program or in the days to come, because we are going to talk to folks about what New York State is and is not doing with climate policy and climate action, but that just goes to show there's so many different ideas about what you do about this.

And the governor, a Democrat, says, we need to slow down on parts of this.

We need to, you know, not electrify the same mandates and pace here with new buildings.

I mean, it's such a wide range of ideas, even within the ostensible political left.

So, Joseph, can you teach solutions as effectively as you can teach cause and effects of it?

Should K through 12 be teaching climate change solutions?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think the kind of conversation that you just had or that you just kind of laid out that that's a social, governmental, political dynamic that is entirely appropriate for high schoolers to deal with in a civics class or a social studies class, or an environmental science class, where you look at the kind of costs and benefits of different forms of energy and, and the trade offs that are involved.

And, you know, all of the things that have to do with global supply chains and the politics around those things.

I think we do our students a disservice if we don't teach them about the reality of the world that they live in.

And so, you know, I think you have to do that in a developmentally appropriate way.

You know, I wouldn't get into the oil issues at the Straits of Hormuz right now with elementary students.

But but, you know.

but high school.

>> Yes.

Right.

>> But, but high school.

Yeah, absolutely.

Of course.

And not for nothing, but I would argue that that would make school more relevant for a lot of students because they're sitting around learning about this stuff on TikTok with a whole bunch of adults who are either afraid or don't know how to explain these issues to them.

Right?

So I guess like they're learning about this stuff already.

And so really it's the, it's the, the kind of purview of educators to engage them in meaningful ways that help them understand their world.

And I think, I don't think we should shy away from that.

I think we need to engage students in that kind of complexity, scientifically rigorous, but also, you know, socially rigorous as well.

>> Kelli Grabowski, a science teacher.

Do you agree that high school students they're going to be hearing about and learning about the world in one way or another, especially with social media?

Joseph mentioned TikTok.

are they hungry to, to learn about it from, from you and other teachers?

>> Absolutely.

they have a lot of questions about the way the world works.

And they know that we are a trustworthy source as opposed to, I think they're pretty aware that not everything they see on TikTok is real.

and I also think that we can, it's like you said, it's almost easier to educate about like the causes and effects of climate change.

And the question was about, is educating about the solutions.

And this policy is that effective or is it is it okay to do with our students?

One thing I know when it comes to solutions is you can act locally too.

And so if they know about all these causes and of climate change and they see how it impacts them in their local area, you can do those actions almost a little bit easier than trying to go after the state government, for example, on their decisions, even though that also needs to happen.

when it comes to my science class, I don't know if we'll be going after the state.

but we can take a look at our practices right here in Salamanca and that therefore could be a domino effect as the kids get older.

even though we do need to act on this now.

so yeah, I do, I think that it is something high school civics class for sure could combine with the science class and get some action happening.

We have students go to, to Albany and DC all the time for other reasons.

why not climate change?

>> So Orlando Marrero director of Steam for the Wes Moore Irondequoit School District I, I, I hear the co-panelists that you have here pointing to events around the world saying especially high school students, they understand what's they see what's happening.

They want to understand it better.

There's age appropriate levels of talking about, for example, a war in Iran, the closure of an oil strait, the bombing of energy sites around the world, et cetera.

but how much do you think modern events are going to factor into the kind of education that's going to be part of the climate curriculum?

>> I think it's going to have to, especially for those older students, because they are they're inheriting the world that we're living, living, leaving them.

and they're seeing the effects of the world that we're leaving them right now.

So I think our older students, if we want to do this responsibly, we have no choice but to engage them in how climate change impacts them.

Now and I do agree that it has to go beyond sort of the science classroom.

and so with your older students, I think you have to engage in those conversations.

I think, like Joe said, engaging in those conversations with in age appropriate ways with younger students.

I think when it comes to climate change, you're talking more about them understanding more clearly their relationship to the environment and how the environment impacts their lives, and gaining an appreciation for the environment and for nature.

So you might take sort of like a more nature based approach just so that they understand like how important and precious our natural resources are and how our actions impact our natural resources and what they can do when those natural resources are potentially in danger.

so I think that's maybe more your focus at the younger levels, but I definitely agree that there's no, there's no getting around it.

If we want to make sure that they understand the urgency of, of the problem, then we need to engage with what's happening now.

>> Don, is it a missed opportunity if schools are not taking the events of the world?

That's I mean, quite literally in many ways on fire right now.

Yes.

And associating that with the curriculum that you're going to see.

>> Yeah, it's very much a missed opportunity.

And in bringing kids to Albany to lobby a year and two years ago, it was surprising how many of them said that when we had the smoke filled skies from the Canadian wildfires, none of their teachers talked about it.

And that, you know, people worry about climate anxiety and climate depression, which are real things to worry about, but they're not helped at all by not addressing the, the issues that we're seeing in real life and pretending it's not happening.

>> Why do you think teachers were avoiding that?

>> Well lots of reasons.

you know, the, the tightness of what they feel they have to get done to get kids ready for tests is probably top of the list.

the fact that they probably, unless they're an earth science teacher, probably don't have the preparation to teach about climate change.

and you know, those are, are probably the two biggest reasons, but there are more, you know, just feeling that they've got to get on with their day and not deal with these distractions of the world.

>> So let me ask Don one question about where the standards are going to be if people want to, because a couple of folks have said is the curriculum publicly available?

Can I see it so briefly, Don, do you want to hit that point?

Yes.

Okay.

>> Yeah.

So all of the standards are on the nice website for every discipline.

So you can go ahead and take a look at those.

and the, the science standards are in the process of changing.

And this is the penultimate, the second to last year before.

>> That was correct.

>> Yes.

The second to last year before.

>> I know you're not an English teacher.

>> Right, right.

They're, they're fully implemented.

and in many, many districts, they'll be fully implemented this year.

They have districts have the choice of offering the new physics and chemistry exams this year or next year.

and last year was the first year for the earth, the new earth science and biology exams.

And that new earth science exam.

I am confident, is the state exam that has the most climate change content of any state exam in the country.

I wrote a blog about the changing expectations that folks can find on our website, pre-web, and scroll down and look for the one that's about climate change education.

and that was written when the regulation was proposed.

It passed without change.

So it, even though it was originally written in November, the content still fully relevant.

And it links to the standards and it links to the exams and relatedly it's worth noting that before the new Regents earth science exam last June, the Regents exam that most reliably had in-depth climate change content was the English language arts exam.

>> Wow.

>> and the argument essays they were provided readings on the exam that address some issues and they're different every, every exam, of course.

But I think four of the last eight had substantial climate change Connections.

>> Yeah.

>> Can I add something?

earlier we were talking to about just like maybe some of the resistance or some of the hesitancy that teachers might have when, when tackling some of these topics.

And I want to express some sympathy and I think for your social studies and your humanities teachers just because whenever a sort of world event or some something relevant happens that might be tinged in any little bit of controversy at all they are kind of the first ones that have to deal with any potential community backlash or negative response.

You'll get emails or responses from families who, who might disagree, who might be unhappy with the child learning about a particular topic that they might deem controversial.

and so I do think in our part as districts, we do need to be prepared and ready to, to kind of stand firm to be able to support our teachers and stand behind them, but also work together to develop materials that we can stand behind when they do have to teach these things.

>> So does that mean, Orlando, that between now and the fall of 2027, when this officially rolls out, that it's up to each district and each director of steam and each classroom teacher to sort of read the curriculum and kind of come up with a plan for it, or is there training happening in every district?

Are you welcoming outside voices to work with your teachers?

>> I'm hoping that we get as much help as we can get.

So it's so early though that we, we, we don't have all the information, right?

This just past March 10th.

so we're hopeful that we'll get as you know, as many resources as, as we can, you know, hang on to, but I will say we will part of our vision for this is that we will rely as much as we can on local resources.

We got a lot of great people doing this locally.

And I think that's one way, I think, to break through with students and make it relevant for them.

>> So I just have one more question for the panel, and then what we'll do is after our break, I've got emails to share from listeners with questions about this as we talk about New York State becoming the second state in the country, that's going to have a required climate education curriculum in public schools, K through 12.

So I'll start with Joseph.

I'll go across the panel here.

When I was reading about the states that have done essentially the opposite, the Floridas, the Alabamas, that have said, we don't want teachers teaching this.

We don't want we certainly don't want solutions, but we don't want in some places, we don't want climate change mentioned.

You know, we're going to discourage teachers from even talking about this.

>> one of the main reasons I see sounds something like this.

Lawmakers, governors, state legislators, they say it is not our job to scare the daylights out of our children.

Our children should not come to school and go home scared and too much climate education would do that to kids.

And that's one of the justifications they they use for staying away from what they deem a controversial issue.

So I'm going to start with Joseph on this.

Your school board member, your lecturer at higher ed.

You've taught at different levels.

Tell me what you think about the criticism that says this kind of education, starting in kindergarten all the way to 12th grade, can scare kids, can can be the reason that they have anxiety.

Not I think the critics would say they're not anxious because of the climate change.

They're anxious because of the scaremongering about climate change.

That's the kind of thing I hear.

So go ahead, Joseph.

>> Yeah.

I have a article that's in review right now with some colleagues.

and one of the things that we are showing is that states that are censoring climate change education or not allowing it to develop tend to be states that have high levels of fossil fuel production, have high levels of organized politics that have vested interests in making sure that people don't have conversations about the implications of fossil fuel production.

Right?

So when I hear those kinds of conversations and those concerns, I just think it's incredibly disingenuous.

I think the, I think the thing that is far more traumatic to students is, you know not being able to explain what is happening in the world and not having an adult adults around them who can do that.

And I'll never forget the student who sat across the table from a lawmaker in Albany and said, look, my brother was having an asthma attack.

And the sky was orange and there were no adults in my world who can explain that to me.

Right?

So I just find those arguments to be really disingenuous.

And we know that there's an organized political campaign to keep people from talking about this issue, right?

The United States is doubling down on a fossil fuel economy right now, and other countries are not other countries are not having the same >> And kind of energy crisis that we are, partially because their educational systems deal with the realities of climate change and fossil fuel production.

So I just don't buy those arguments.

I think they're incredibly disingenuous.

And and, you know, even in places like Florida, like I work with a lot of climate educators in Florida and there's a lot of good stuff happening across those states, just not at the level of state policy.

And so so I guess that's what I would reinforce is that I think the, those kind of denier arguments come from a place of propaganda and people should see them for what they are.

It's the, it's the fossil fuel industry.

Talking points.

>> Kelli Grabowski science teacher at Salamanca.

What do you think?

>> So I think one way to approach any fear is to take action.

and so if we don't know that it's happening or we aren't talking about it, we can't act on it.

And that is only going to perpetuate that fear and anxiety.

So you know, I would say that you, you definitely have to discuss it.

for all the same reasons that Joe was saying.

And I mean, we denied for a long time that cancer, cancer was caused by cigarettes and that didn't do us any good until we figured out that cigarettes do cause cancer.

So.

Yeah.

See the propaganda for what it is and embrace the fear and the reality and take action on it.

Because I think that's really empowering.

>> Kelly, we're going to let you go back to class.

By the way, Kelly's popped in, literally going right back.

That's Kelli Grabowski from Salamanca Central School District.

All right.

In studio Orlando, same question for you.

So this idea, it's the chicken and egg thing.

The anxiety comes from where the critics, the lawmakers who say it's from the climate education that seeks to indoctrinate, indoctrinate them.

>> No, I think the problem is here now.

And we're all ready not, you know, teaching it across grade levels.

So if there is existing anxiety right now, it's it's not coming from the classroom.

and I do think one of the, one of our guiding principles, I think has to be to teach a certain level of resilience, right?

Teach them that this is something, this is a solvable problem and that we have the power to do very specific things about it.

so I don't think when we approach our curriculum, we are not going to approach it from a place of fear.

I think we're going to place it.

We're going to approach it from a place of, of hope and action that we can do something about this.

>> Don.

>> I have a lot to say on this topic.

I've given a talk called fear is our best hope.

And I think fear leads us to do things.

you know, why did we pass the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act and established the EPA?

We did those things because we were frightened of what would happen if we didn't.

fear shouldn't be the main thing you're doing when you're teaching about climate change, but maybe ballpark of 30%.

You got to know about the scary stuff to fix the scary stuff.

If you weren't worried about it, why would you do anything is a really, really important question.

and I think that as I already mentioned once, I think that if you're not being forthright with your students about what's happening in the world, that will induce more anxiety.

And as Kelly said, the best thing you can do about a negative emotion, generally anxiety, depression, whatever is get to work on the problem and ideally do that in community with others.

And we can do that in schools and we should be.

>> After our only break emails from listeners on the subject of climate change education, which is coming to a K through 12 school near you, if it's not already there.

I mean, in some ways it is, but an actual standard New York state curriculum is coming, and you're hearing from some of the people who've been closely involved with the effort to make that happen.

That is a big new development in New York state.

And 2027 fall of 2027 is when the climate change K through 12 curriculum will officially roll out.

We'll come right back with your feedback next.

I'm Evan Dawson Wednesday on the next Connections.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

So I'm a parent and I'm a member of the general public, so I'm going to keep calling it a curriculum because that's how I see this.

But Don Haas briefly, what's officially rolling out is it's not quite in the world of curriculum, although it kind of I mean, it's kind of what's going on.

>> So the state education department would be cranky with us if.

>> That's fine.

>> With me.

We said that it was a curriculum.

it's not a curriculum.

It's not exactly standards.

It is a regulation a curriculum is sort of a defined course of study.

And it's not that it's using the existing standards, which tell us what students are expected to learn, but it doesn't tell us the, the sort of cookbook of how to get them to learn that.

So it's a regulation, it's not a curriculum.

>> And this is where the distinction to me actually matters more than just in semantics.

I think the cynics would say, oh, so there will be some schools who just don't do this at all.

What do you think, Don?

>> I, I worry about that a lot.

there is within the regulation and expectation that schools will document and report to the state how they are addressing the regulation.

So hopefully we don't really have any details on what that looks like, but hopefully those details will clue us in to a way that schools won't be able to weasel their way out of it.

Okay.

>> A lot a lot could happen in the next year and a half.

Yeah.

To kind of firm that.

>> Up, I am worried as the regulation is written, that it will be parsed off, off to a partitioned off to a single class in each grade band.

The expectation is that at the end of the K-5 grade band, all students will have been instructed in climate change.

At the end of the six, seven and eight grade band again, and at high school.

And I do worry that they'll they'll put it off into a science class at each one of those levels, and I don't think that's the spirit of the regulation, but if you follow it to the letter of the law and figure out what the bare minimum is, you can do it that way.

As it's written now is the information we have now from the state.

>> All right, some emails here.

This is Christopher.

He says, listening to this conversation about climate change education right now as an environmental scientist working for over 30 years in this field, I see the need for such education as being fundamental, understanding our relationship as a society with our environment and our ecology is a duty that we owe to our children.

I've studied both the science and the sociology behind this, and it is important to know them both, but even more so, it is important to develop the ecological ethics in fundamental values associated.

here that are necessary for social change.

And he says, I'm interested in your guest's thoughts on how that fundamental value and how ethical change can be taught.

I'm not sure it's appropriate for the classroom, although I wish it was.

That's from Christopher Joseph.

You want to start?

What would you say to Christopher?

>> I mean, that's an incredibly well said comment.

So kudos to Christopher.

I do think, you know, there are really big philosophical questions here that that climate change helps us think about, which is, you know, what does it mean to be a human on the planet?

How how are we to live with other people, given the social inequities around resource use and impact of those things?

what is education for?

I think is a really interesting question that we should continue to ask.

You know, the way we've done education for the last 40 years is a kind of credentialing system.

Like we, we teach kids that like the point of education is to get out, get a certificate for the next phase of college or career readiness.

And, you know, there are, there are other traditions of education around engaging in real world problems and trying to understand your community and have an impact in your community.

I think I think it's a really good opportunity to have those larger questions.

And, and yeah, we, we should, we should have those conversations with kids.

I think, I think a lot of students, you know, it's, I've been, I've been highly attuned to the, the, there's been so much handwringing about social media and cell phones lately.

And I, I feel like it's in some ways a deflection from larger issues around things like crushing levels of economic inequality lack of affordable housing, eco side kind of destruction of the planet are persistent, like rendering of wars.

I just think we need to have bigger conversations around like, what is the point of education and what are we doing in the world?

I mean, the and, you know, to the point about environmental ethics, like we know that there are better or worse ways of treating nature and treating the environment.

We should talk about what those are.

Right?

Heavily extractive, exploitative ways of, of dealing with the environment has all sorts of negative implications on both people and planet.

And so there are lots of other countries that do a more kind of environmentally conscious or environmentally ethical form of education.

I do a lot of research in Scandinavia where this stuff is just infused throughout the system.

Nature based learning and understanding the human relationship to nature is just common sense in a place like Denmark or Norway, where, where, where they would be confused that we're even having a conversation around this as a specialized topic.

It's like understanding your place in nature and and how humans relate to nature.

Humans are deeply curious about nature.

People care about nature.

We should be, infusing that throughout the educational system.

>> So let me turn to our guest in studio with the same question.

Orlando Marrero, director of steam for the West Irondequoit Central School District, Christopher, wants to know if you know, if those fundamental values and ethical ideas on social change can be taught in the classroom.

>> Yeah, I think I think Joe said it really well.

I think I keep thinking about our youngest learners and they don't have a hard time learning about, you know, what's wrong and what's right, what's fair, what's not fair.

and I do think it's, it's perfectly fine for them to, to learn the consequences of, of our actions, how they impact nature and how that affects their lives.

we, we do have to present that, I think in a, in a way that is appropriate for, for the age level, but I think this is all, this all goes back to the conversation before about whether we need to be talking about the events that are happening right now.

You know, these things are happening now.

So I think it's I do think it's completely appropriate.

There's no reason not to.

>> Don.

>> Yeah, I, there was a lot in Christopher's very good question.

I think at the elementary level the most important thing to do in terms of teaching kids about climate is getting them outside.

my colleagues and I wrote the teacher friendly guide to Climate Change in the, the first chapter or the first two sentences of chapter one are whether tells you what clothes to wear, climate change, climate tells you what clothes to own.

and that's a very, you know, simple.

>> Why have I never heard that before?

It's really good.

>> It was in the ethos before I put those words on paper.

>> Everyone should read this document.

>> It's excellent.

Yeah.

and it's free online.

web.org.

but getting kids outside and doing things in in the natural world or, you know, whatever is your closest proximity, you know, facsimile of, of nature, wherever your school is or wherever your home is, is really the most important thing.

And getting kids out into the woods when you can is just so important to develop that environmental ethos.

And then, you know, nurture that along all throughout and get kids doing things that matter to the world outside of school.

>> Let me get Bob's comments.

Bob wants to know regarding teaching climate change in K through 12 schools, he says, what were the requirements before?

Now, if there were none, then does that mean teachers who have been teaching climate change have been going above and beyond the requirements?

And if so, then my follow up would be teachers say how pressured they are for time to fit everything in.

Were they skimping on other requirements to fit in things that weren't required?

Do they have the latitude to do that?

That's from Bob Orlando.

>> From the science perspective.

I mean, it is it exists.

It exists in the science standards.

I think you will in a traditional sort of like K-12 setting, you will see it most explicitly taught in places like the Earth Science classroom in your middle school classroom science classrooms as well.

If it is touched in any other subjects, it might be in social studies.

When they do talk about the Industrial Revolution.

But I don't I wouldn't expect if we were to do an audit of our curriculum today you wouldn't find it in very many places.

There are some science teachers who have gone above and beyond.

We have a chemistry teacher who has a fabulous chemistry unit on acids and bases about sort of coral bleaching.

That's the phenomenon that they study.

And so that's a great way to introduce it, but it's nobody required them to do that.

>> it is true though, that the greenhouse effect has been on the region's earth science exam since 1971. but that was about, it was just that putting more carbon dioxide into the air will warm up the atmosphere.

and it was maybe it would show up in 1 or 2 questions on what used to be the 100 point point per question exam.

but it has been there for a long time.

and, and so there has been a space for it, but a very, very small space.

>> Anything you want to add there?

Joseph.

>> Yeah.

I think the, you know, the research shows that if students are encountering climate change at all, it tends to be only in their science classes and it tends to only be for a couple of hours per year.

and that really, my own research has shown that depends often on the perspectives of the science teacher themselves.

And that's just in a science classroom, I think one, one thing that I would emphasize and Don talks about quite a bit is, you know, go ask the young people in your lives whether they're getting any climate education in their classrooms.

We've had like so many young people, more young people than I can even count who have said, like, I understand that we're supposed to be getting this, but like, I'm not getting it.

I'm not getting it at all.

Right.

And for a variety of reasons.

And so even, even though something is, you know, technically in the standards, doesn't necessarily mean that a teacher is comfortable teaching it.

and that they are trained in teaching it.

I mean, I think teacher training and professional development is a huge going to be a huge part of this.

You know, it remains to be seen whether New York State is going to adequately fund the rollout of this.

I think that's what we're all sitting and waiting for right now is New York State is changing its requirements.

And, you know, to go back to that conversation about the governor, like, is how much of a priority is this going to be?

Are they going to actually put money after it to help educators?

I'm sympathetic to teachers who feel like they have to kind of cover a lot of curriculum.

I wish we would get away from that kind of conversation.

I think the question should be more, how do we engage students in deeply meaningful learning experiences?

beyond just the mere coverage of kind of superficial knowledge?

>> Yeah, just I want to jump in there and the funding question call Carl Heastie.

The budget is being negotiated right now.

there is some funding in the Senate's version of the budget, but not the assembly.

So put some pressure on Carl Heastie to get it there and the governor to.

>> Yeah, this is not a small thing.

I do think whenever we have new.

Let's see, let's say rules that we need to follow that come from from New York State.

if they don't come with funding for us to do the work, this is going to require some changes in curriculum and materials and training.

And all of that costs money.

So yeah.

>> All right.

So last few minutes here briefly, Orlando, are you optimistic that you will get the support that you will get the resources and that what changes in the fall of 2027 won't just be this ephemeral thing that's in a regulation but is easily ignored, that this will be a fundamental change.

And this is going to, for lack of better word, it's going to work.

>> I have a lot of hope that that will happen.

obviously there's just so much in the air that it's hard to predict exactly how this will go.

But even the fact that this exists, I think is reason for hope.

It's a big win.

But it is also not a reason to, to rest and say like, great, we did it.

We got it through.

so we, I will work really hard as director of steam for my district to make sure that regardless of what kind of support we get from the state, that we have something robust for our students in our district.

and I'm hopeful I will, I will lobby as much as I can for as much support as I can.

>> and Joseph Henderson when you look around the world right now, you see 20% of the day, the daily oil flow of the world goes through the Strait of Hormuz.

That is obviously a big choke point in the energy system, and it's a huge issue right now.

The Trump administration has promised to bomb energy sites in Iran.

We see Russia and Ukraine attacking each other's energy sites.

There are all kinds of questions about whether this this war will lead to more electrification, you know, and who benefits?

I mean, it feels crass to say, you know, who wins that the energy war based on this war.

But I want to close just by asking you to take a minute and just tell me, when you look at the war in Iran and you think about energy and you think about climate, what's top of mind for you right now?

>> what's top of mind?

you know ExxonMobil knew about the implications of climate change 40, 50 years ago.

Their own scientists really nailed it.

you know, the Pentagon has called this the, you know, now we're entering the time of consequences.

And so I think the United States has had a long time to alter its energy systems and its educational systems.

And you know, we're, we're very slowly doing it.

And so on the one hand, it's exciting and on the other hand, we're way behind.

And so what I, what I would love to see is a, a, I mean, frankly, I think the United States doesn't take climate change seriously until it really does impact our energy system.

And so like, what's top of mind for me?

I look at how the United States is doubling down on a kind of deadly fossil fuel economy.

And and we're all suffering from that.

I mean, drive past a gas pump and see the price of that right now.

we could have taken different trajectories and countries like China are taking different trajectories.

And so, you know, we're, they're building out an electro state and, you know, it would be nice if we had, I'm not saying there's all sorts of problems with China.

I don't want to kind of valorize that country, but but it would be nice if we had the kind of attention to climate change that we have to things like A.I.

And, and I think that would be, that would really be helpful for kind of marshaling the resources, including in the educational system to really do this work at scale so that we all can have a kind of flourishing and productive future.

That's what I want.

I want a future with more joy and less suffering.

I think most people want that.

>> I want all four of you to come back in a year and a half when the regulation becomes reality, and New York schools are tasked with educating on K through 12 on climate change, I hope you'll do that.

Joseph Henderson lecture at the University of Vermont, member of the school board for Saranac Lake Central School District.

Thanks for being with us, Joseph.

>> Yep.

Always.

Always good.

Thank you.

Evan.

>> Great to have Don Haas with us, director of Teacher Programing at the Paleontological Research Institutions Center for Climate Change Education.

Come back, talk to us now.

>> I will I'll close out by noting that the price of wind and sunshine has stayed flat at zero.

>> Oh, man, the whole one story we could have done Orlando Marrero from Western Irondequoit.

Good luck.

Come back.

Talk to us sometime.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thank you.

>> For having me.

All right, everyone, I'll talk to you tomorrow.

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