>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> WE LOOK AT THE EXTREMIST IN THE HOUSE, THEY CERTAINLY DON'T REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY.

AND SOMEBODY HAS TO STAND UP AND SAY ENOUGH.

>> POLITICAL TURMOIL IN THE UNITED STATES, AGAIN.

THE OUSTING OF KEVIN McCARTHY, CHAOS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND AID FOR UKRAINE HANGING IN THE BALANCE.

CHRIS JOHN SPEAKS TO HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON ABOUT IT ARE >> >>> THE FRACTURED STATE OF CONGRESS WITH NORM ORNSTEIN.

>>> PLUS .

>> I TOLD MYSELF THAT EVEN IF THEY ARREST ME, I WILL STAND UP AND TELL THEM I DON'T WANT TO BE KEPT AT HOME.

>> EXTRAORDINARY BRAVERY OF YOUNG GIRLS LIVING UNDER THE TALIBAN , THE WAR ON AFGHANISTAN'S HIDDEN SCHOOLS.

>>> THEN THE IDENTITY TRAP, JOINS US TO DISCUSS HIS LATEST BOOK AND WHAT HE BELIEVES IS OUR OBSESSION WITH GROUP IDENTITY.

AND.

>> IN SOME COURT FILINGS THE NEW CEO OF FTX DESCRIBED FTX BEFORE THE COLLAPSE AS A DUMPSTER FIRE.

>> AND EMPIRE OF LIES?

THE TRIAL OF CRYPTO KING, SAM BANKMAN-FRIED.

TAXES WITH THE NEW YORKERS SHEILA.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE WE ARE, THE FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS XXXX JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS XXXX MARK J POSNER XXXX CJ J MELVIN XXXX CHARLES ROSENBLUM XXXX PATRICIA YOU AND , COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IS OUR COMMUNITY.

XXXX BOB AND HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

IN YORK, SITTING IN FOR AMANPOUR.

DOZENS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN A RUSSIAN MISSILE STRIKE ON A VILLAGE NEAR THE EASTERN UKRAINIAN CITY .

ONE OF THE DEADLIEST ATTACKS AGAINST CIVILIANS SINCE THE CONFLICT BEGAN THIS IS VITAL AID FROM THE UNITED STATES IS INCREASINGLY IN DOUBT.

SOMETHING THAT HAS LEFT THE U.S. PRESIDENT, QUOTE, WORRIED.

ONCE AGAIN THE U.S. IS IN A STATE OF POLITICAL CHAOS ON HIS OWN .

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, A PARTY HAS FIRED ITS OWN SPEAKER RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONGRESSIONAL TERM.

THE OUSTING OF KEVIN McCARTHY IS JUST THE LATEST EVIDENCE OF DEEP DIVISIONS AND TURMOIL IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THE RACE TO FIND HIS REPLACEMENT IS ON.

REMEMBER THE HOUSE ALSO NEEDS TO REACH AN AGREEMENT BY MID- NOVEMBER TO FUND THE GOVERNMENT OR RISK A SHUTDOWN.

LET'S NOT FORGET THE LIKELY REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IS CURRENTLY FACING FOUR CRIMINAL TRIALS.

>>> WE WILL DIG INTO ALL OF THIS BUT FIRST, JUST SAT DOWN WITH FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE AND FIRST LADY, HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON.

SHE ASKED HER ABOUT THE HOUSE SPEAKER DEBACLE, INCLUDING THE DEMOCRATS ROLE IN THIS.

HERE'S A CLIP.

>> Reporter: SHOULD THE DEMOCRATS HAVE SAVED HIM, SO TO SPEAK?

SHOULD THEY HAVE VOTED TO KEEP HIM IN?

>> NO, THAT WAS A VERY TOUGH CALL FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS BUT THE PROBLEM WAS FOR THEM, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE WAS TOTALLY ON TRUSTWORTHY BY ANY MEASURE.

HE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY DID HELP HIM KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPEN, AS YOU KNOW, BEGAN TO BLAME THEM FOR ALL KINDS OF EXTRANEOUS MATTERS AT SOME POINT A LEADER WHO HAS LOST ALL CREDIBILITY IN DEALING WITH THE OPPOSITION WHERE YOU WANT TO HAVE AN OPEN LINE OF COMMUNICATION, YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRUST HIS WORK, IS GOING TO ASK FOR THEIR HELP AND NOT GET IT.

>> Reporter: IT IS SAID THAT THE MAIN CONTENDERS FOR HIS POSITION ARE JIM JORDAN, YOU KNOW VERY WELL.

>> I DON'T KNOW HIM WELL, I WATCHED HIM AND STARED AT HIM FOR 11 HOURS WHILE HE MADE STUFF UP ABOUT ME.

I DON'T KNOW HIM BUT I HAVE SEEN HIM IN ACTION.

>> Reporter: WHAT WILL IT MEAN IF HE GETS THE SPEAKERSHIP X >> HE IS ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL RINGLEADERS OF THE CIRCUS THAT HAS BEEN CREATED IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

I HAVE NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT THE REPUBLICANS WILL DO, WHO THEY WILL END UP VOTING FOR, BUT WHEN DO THEY PUT THE COUNTRY FIRST?

THEY DO NOT REPRESENT A MAJORITY OF EVEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY .

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE EXTREMIST IN THE HOUSE, THEY CERTAINLY DON'T REPRESENT A MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY .

AND SOMEBODY HAS TO STAND UP AND SAY ENOUGH WE COULD HAVE DISAGREEMENTS, I AM ALL FOR EIGHT YEARS, I WORK WITH A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND OPPOSE THEM WHEN I DIDN'T AGREE.

BUT AT SOME POINT THERE NEEDS TO BE A BACKLASH AGAINST THE CONTROL THAT THIS SMALL GROUP OF EXTREMIST HAVE AND I DON'T KNOW WHO WILL LEAD THAT BUT LET'S HOPE WHOEVER BECOMES THE NEW SPEAKER WILL.

>> BE SURE TO CATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW THAT AIRS ON MONDAY.

>>> WE WANT TO TURN OVERSEAS NOW IN AGREEMENT MILESTONE IN AFGHANISTAN.

LAST YEAR MARKED TWO YEARS SINCE THE TALIBAN AND OUTLAWED FEMALE EDUCATION.

GIRLS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL FROM SIXTH GRADE ONWARDS AND ARE BARRED FROM UNIVERSITIES.

BUT A CLANDESTINE NETWORK OF BRAVE WOMEN HAVE SET UP SECRET CLASSROOMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND DIRECT DEFIANCE OF THAT BAND.

>> Reporter: YOUR WITNESSING A COURAGEOUS ACT OF REBELLION .

YOUNG GIRLS GATHERED TO LEARN IN A SECRET CLASSROOM.

TO THE TALIBAN, THEY ARE CRIMINALS, DEFYING A BAN ON FEMALE EDUCATION.

BUT THE STUDENT SAY THEY ARE DETERMINED TO CONTINUE THEIR SCHOOLING NO MATTER THE COST TWO OF THEM TOLD US.

>> Translator: I HAVE TOLD MYSELF THAT EVEN IF THE TALIBAN ARRESTS ME.

I WILL STAND UP AND TELL THEM I DON'T WANT TO BE KEPT AT HOME.

SHE SAYS, I JUST WANT TO LEARN AND THAT IS NOT A CRIME.

>> Reporter: CNN WAS GRANTED ACCESS TO THIS UNDERGROUND CLASSROOM ON THE CONDITION WE CONCEAL THE IDENTITY OF THE STUDENTS AND STAFF WHO KEEP THE LOCATION HIDDEN.

BUT ALLOWING OUR CAMERAS IN COMES AT EXTRAORDINARY RISKS.

AROUND 30 STUDENTS HUDDLED INTO THIS LITTLE ROOM TO HUDDLE EVERYTHING FROM SCIENCE TO MATH TO TAILORING AND DRAWING.

NOT HER REAL NAME, IS A TEACHER.

>> Translator: FEAR IS WITH US EVERY SECOND .

BUT THERE IS A POWER STRONGER THAN FEAR, OUR >> Reporter: THIS IS ONE OF NINE SECRET SCHOOLS THAT EDUCATE MORE THAN 400 GIRLS ACROSS EIGHT AFGHAN PROVINCES.

IT IS OPERATED BY A CLANDESTINE NETWORK CALLED SERAC .

THEY FIND THE PROGRAM THROUGH WORD-OF- MOUTH AND DEMAND IS GROWING.

IT WAS FOUNDED BY THIS WOMAN .

SHE SAYS BECAUSE OF HER ACTIVISM, SHE WAS RECENTLY FORCED TO FLEE AFGHANISTAN.

BUT IN THE SUMMER OF 2021, AS DOUBLE FAN FELL TO THE TALIBAN, SHE ANTICIPATED THE BAN ON FEMALE EDUCATION AND GOT TO WORK.

LISA WE WERE WATCHING SOME DOCUMENTARIES.

I WAS LOOKING AT AFGHAN WOMAN SITTING UP AND HIDING UNDERGROUND IN PLACES.

>> Reporter: INSPIRED IN PART BY THE 1996 CNN DOCUMENTARY, BATTLE FOR AFGHANISTAN, SHE BEGAN TO FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF WOMEN SET NEARLY 25 YEARS AGO.

MY WORK, IT IS MY RIGHT TO WORK AND I NEED TO WORK.

>> AFGHANISTAN IS FULLY SHATTERED.

IT IS IN DARKNESS.

>> Reporter: THE TALIBAN IS FORCING WOMEN INTO THIS DARKNESS.

EFFECTIVELY ERASING THEM FOR MUCH OF PUBLIC LIFE.

THE U.N. SAYS THE TACCONE AND RULES AMOUNT TO GENDER APARTHEID AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

BUT THIS LITTLE CLASSROOM IN THE SHADOWS PROVIDES A RAY OF HOPE.

>> Translator: THIS SCHOOL IS LIKE A LIGHT FOR ME.

IT IS LIKE THE LOW ROAD FOR ME THAT I CAN SEE HAPPINESS AND SUNRISE AT THE END OF IT.

IT IS ALSO A LIFELINE , RATES OF CHILD MARRIAGE, UNDER AGE LABOR, AND REPORTED SUICIDE HAVE INCREASED SINCE THE BAN ON FEMALE EDUCATION, ACCORDING TO THE U.N.. COUNTLESS GIRLS CONFINED TO THEIR HOMES ARE SUFFERING ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION.

FATIMA WAS AMONG THEM.

>> Translator: IT FELT JUST LIKE BEING A PRISONER , LIKE A TO EAT AND DRINK BUT NOT ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Reporter: WITH THE SUPPORT OF HER FAMILY SHE DISCOVERED THE SCHOOL, AND FOUND HER PASSION.

SHE WANTS TO BE A FAMOUS FASHION DESIGNER.

>> Translator: I WANT MY FUTURE TO BE A BRIGHT ONE.

I DON'T WANT TO BE BEHIND A MASK FOREVER .

I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SHOW MY REAL FACE.

BRAVE WOMEN AND GIRLS DREAMING OF A FUTURE WITHOUT THE TALIBAN AND BOLDLY PREPARING TO STEP OUT INTO THE LIGHT AGAIN.

>> INCREDIBLE GIRLS AND WOMEN , FIGHTING FOR THEIR RIGHT TO EDUCATION.

OF COURSE WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER THIS IMPORTANT STORY.

THANKS FOR REPORTING THERE.

>>> LET'S DIG INTO OUR TOP STORY, THAT IS THE UNFOLDING POLITICAL CHAOS FOLLOWING THE HISTORIC OUSTER OF SPEAKER McCARTHY.

LITTLE SCIENTISTS UNDERSTAND THE INNER WORKINGS OF WASHINGTON MORE THAN MOST.

HE IS ALSO A SENIOR FELLOW EMERITUS AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE AND CONSERVATIVE THINK TANK.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNDER WORKINGS OF WASHINGTON BUT IT IS HARD TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN TRANSPIRE OVER THE LAST 48 HOURS CONGRESS REMAINS WITHOUT A SPEAKER AT THE HANDS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

10 YEARS AGO , YOU WROTE A PIECE WITH THOMAS MANN AND THE WASHINGTON POST.

I WANT TO QUOTE FORD FOR OUR VIEWERS, WE HAVE BEEN STUDYING WASHINGTON POLITICS FOR MORE THAN 40 YEARS, AND NEVER HAVE WE SEEN THEM THIS ASSUMPTION OPTIONAL.

A REMINDER , THIS WAS 10 YEARS AGO.

SO ASIDE FROM JUST BEING PRESCIENT, WALK US THROUGH THE EVOLUTION SPECIFICALLY OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS IT HAS VEERED FURTHER AND FURTHER TO THE RIGHT.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT WHILE WE SAW AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONGRESS IN JANUARY OF LAST YEAR, KEVIN McCARTHY TAKE 15 BALLOTS AND HAVE TO MAKE ALL KINDS OF CONCESSIONS TO THE LUNATIC FRINGE OF HIS PARTY.

BUT IT DIDN'T START WITH THAT.

HE GOES BACK NOT JUST 10 YEARS BUT EVEN FURTHER , IT GOES BACK TO NEWT GINGRICH , TO A CONSIDERABLE DEGREE AND RADICALIZING HIS OWN PARTY AND TRIBE LIES IN OUR POLITICS THAT HAS CARRIED THROUGH TO THIS POINT.

BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT IN 2010 , KEVIN McCARTHY JOINED BY TWO OF HIS COLLEAGUE, ERIC CANTOR AND PAUL RYAN, DID A BOOK CALLED YOUNG GUNS , FROM THE MOVIE OF THE SAME NAME.

BYPASSING THEIR OWN LATER, JOHN BADER, GOING OUT TO THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT, ANGRY OVER THE FINANCIAL COLLAPSE THAT HAD OCCURRED IN 2008 AND 2009 , AND RECRUITED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE TO COME TO CONGRESS WITH THE PROMISE THAT THEY WOULD IMMEDIATELY/GOVERNMENT SPENDING , USE THE DEBT CEILING AS A WEAPON TO FORCE BARACK OBAMA, THE PRESIDENT, TO HIS KNEES , AND IT DID NOT WORK, THEY BROUGHT IN THE RADICAL GROUP BUT THEN THEY DIDN'T ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH THEIR GOALS WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS, ERIC CANTOR A TEA PARTY RADICAL NAMED DAVE BRAD, THEN JOHN BADER, WHO TRIED TO SAVE THEM FROM CATASTROPHE BY SAVING US FROM GOING INTO DEFAULT WHEN THEY TRIED TO BASICALLY BLACKMAIL THE PRESIDENT , FOUND THAT HE COULDN'T STAY AS SPEAKER AFTER FOUR YEARS, HE QUIT AND HIS PLACEMENT IN THE END, PAUL RYAN , ANOTHER ONE OF THESE YOUNG GUNS , COULDN'T LAST FOR MORE THAN FOUR YEARS AND QUIT, AS WELL.

KEVIN McCARTHY HELPED US SOW THE SEEDS HERE.

AND NOW HE IS SUFFERING HIS DEMISE IS COMING TO SOME DEGREE AT HIS OWN HANDS.

>> AND HE AGREED TO THE ONE MEMBER ONE VOTE MOTION TO VACATE.

AND SO THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT APPEARED TO BE INEVITABLE .

IN FACT, I BELIEVE MOST PEOPLE BUT HE LASTED LONGER THAN THEY EXPECTED HIM TO.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD SEE HIM LEAVE DURING THE DEBT CEILING CRISIS A FEW MONTHS AGO.

SO GIVEN THIS RULE , ONE MEMBER CAN BRING UP A MOTION TO VACATE RULE AND VOTE , HOW DOES IT REPLACEMENT EXPECTS TO GOVERN PROPERLY, AND HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCE IN THE U.S. AND INTERNATIONALLY HOW IT MEMBERS CAN SORT OF HIJACK A MAJORITY IN ONE PARTY.

>> FIRST, YOU KNOW, KEEP IN MIND THAT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE IS A RAZOR THIN MAJORITY.

THEY COULD ONLY LOSE FOUR MEMBERS AND THEY LOSE A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE .

AND THERE IS NO WAY IN WHICH THE MEMBERS OF THE MINORITY PARTY ARE GOING TO JOIN TOGETHER TO SAVE THE MAJORITY FROM ITS OWN MEMBERS.

SO WHEN McCARTHY , HAVING TO SELL WHAT REMAINED OF HIS SOUL TO THE DEVIL , IN THIS CASE, NAMED MATT GAETZ, TO ALLOW THIS MOTION, A PRIVILEGE MOTION, ONE MEMBER CAN BRING IT, REALLY DID SET HIS DEMISE IN PLACE.

IT'S A CRAZY POSITION TO BE IN.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT THE NEXT SPEAKER, WHOEVER THAT MAY BE, IS GOING TO TRY TO REMOVE , BUT LET'S REMEMBER, AS WELL, THAT EVEN IF IT IS NOT JUST ONE MEMBER, IF YOU'RE ENTHRALLED TO THE LUNATIC FRINGE OF YOUR OWN PARTY AND I WILL BE FRANK HERE, THE LUNATIC FRINGE ENCOMPASSES A MAJORITY OF THOSE MEMBERS NOW, EVEN THOSE WHO DECIDED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT KEVIN McCARTHY , YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GOVERN VERY WELL BECAUSE THIS IS NOW NOT JUST A POLITICAL PARTY, THE REPUBLICANS WHO I HAVE WORKED WITH OVER MANY DECADES IN CONGRESS, FOR MANY OF THEM, IT IS NO LONGER A PROBLEM SOLVING PARTY, IT IS MORE OF A RADICAL COLT, A NIHILIST CALLS, AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GOVERN, DON'T RESPECT YOUR OWN INSTITUTION, REALLY DESIRE TO BLOWUP THE GOVERNMENT AND THE COUNTRY FOR WHAT YOU THINK WILL BE A BETTER FUTURE OF FREEDOM , WE ARE IN A VERY VERY DIFFICULT PLACE, AND FRANKLY, THE NEXT PERSON TO COME ALONG IS LIKELY TO BE EVEN LESS WILLING TO TRY AND FIND SOME SOLUTIONS TO THESE PROBLEMS THAN KEVIN McCARTHY, WHO IS NOT EXACTLY A PROBLEM SOLVER HIMSELF.

>> WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHETHER DEMOCRATS MADE THE RIGHT MOVE BY NOT SUPPORTING KEVIN McCARTHY UNDER THE IDEA THAT PERHAPS THE DEVIL THEY KNOW IS BETTER THAN WHO CAN FOLLOW HIM .

AT LEAST KEVIN McCARTHY, ACCORDING TO SOME ARGUMENTS, PUBLICLY SAID THAT HE SUPPORTED FUNDING FOR UKRAINE, THOUGH HE OMITTED IT FROM THE CR, AT LEAST THE CR WAS PASSED .

SOME OF THESE NAMES THAT HAVE BEEN MENTIONED AS A POSSIBLE SUCCESSOR HAVE PUBLICLY SAID THAT HE HAS NO PLANS, DOES NOT SUPPORT CONTINUED FUNDING FOR UKRAINE AND WE ARE LIKELY TO SEE A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IF THIS CRISIS CONTINUES.

WAS THAT A SMART MOVE ON THE PART OF DEMOCRATS GIVEN THAT?

>> I WOULD SAY YES , FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

FIRST IS DEMOCRATS DON'T TRUST KEVIN McCARTHY .

AND REMEMBER, BACK WHEN JON WEINER LEFT THE SPEAKERSHIP, CARTHY WAS NEXT IN LINE, THE REPUBLICANS SAID YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE SPEAKER BECAUSE WE DON'T TRUST YOU.

BUT WHAT ALSO CREATED A KIND OF SIMMERING ANGER BY DEMOCRATS ABOUT KEVIN McCARTHY WAS THAT HE TURNED AGAINST THEM AFTER JANUARY 6th, HE VOTED AFTER THE CHAOS THAT HAD OCCURRED THAT ELECTION HAD BEEN STOLEN, HE DISCREDITED THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE AND BLOCKED A FURTHER INVESTIGATION , AND IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS EVEN FROM A PRAGMATIC STANDPOINT, IF DEMOCRATS HAD STEPPED IN TO SAVE McCARTHY , THE ODDS ARE THAT McCARTHY WOULD HAVE TURNED EVEN MORE RADICAL, HE WOULD'VE SAID OH MY GOD, I DON'T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN AGAIN, SO I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE EVEN MORE TO THEM MATT GAETZ WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW IT IS UNDENIABLE THAT THE CHOICES THAT ARE OUT THERE NOW ARE WORSE THAN McCARTHY.

WE HAVE JIM JORDAN, WHEN HE LEFT , JON WEINER PREFERRED JORDAN AS A LEGISLATIVE TERRORIST.

WE HAVE STEVE SCALISE WHO HAS BEEN A PART OF THE LEADERSHIP FOR SOME TIME, A MORE SYMPATHETIC FIGURE IN SOME WAYS, BUT SELF DESCRIBED AS DAVID DUKE, THE LEADER WITHOUT THE BAGGAGE.

SO WE ARE NOT LIKELY TO SEE SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING TO REACH OUT TO DEMOCRATS BUT KEVIN McCARTHY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT OTHERWISE.

THE ALTERNATIVE HERE, POTENTIALLY, IS THAT SOME OF THE MORE REASONABLE REPUBLICANS COULD TURN TO HAKEEM JEFFRIES AND DEMOCRATS AND TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENT COALITION BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE IN THE WORKS RIGHT NOW.

THEY ARE NOT EXACTLY COURAGEOUS ABOUT STEPPING AWAY FROM EITHER EXCOMMUNICATED OR PHYSICAL THREAT, WHICH IS ANOTHER PART OF OUR CULTURE RIGHT NOW THAT IS DEEPLY TROUBLING.

>> I DO THINK, I AGREE WITH YOU MODERATE REPUBLICANS ARE THE ONES TO WATCH NOW GOING FORWARD.

BUT THAT ALSO RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHETHER NEXT WEDNESDAY WHAT COULD HAVE ANOTHER SPEAKER, BECAUSE AS THIS DEBATE CONTINUES, AS THE PROCESS CONTINUES, THE CLOCK IS TICKING IN TERMS OF KEEPING THIS GOVERNMENT OPEN, WE ARE NOW DOWN TO BELOW 40 DAYS.

I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE FIRST QUESTION AND THAT IS SOMETHING YOU WROTE 10 YEARS AGO, IDENTIFYING A PARTY THAT YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THE LIKES BEFORE, AND IT GOES BACK TO PRIOR TO THAT.

IT PIQUES MY INTEREST BECAUSE SO MUCH FOCUSES ON DONALD TRUMP, AND THE QUESTION OF WHETHER HE IS A SYMPTOM OR A CAUSE OF THE DYSFUNCTION THAT WE ARE SEEING IN WASHINGTON NOW, SPECIFICALLY WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THIS PREDATES HIM, ACCORDING TO YOUR CALENDAR.

SO HOW DOES HE FIT INTO ALL THIS?

PLEASE DONALD TRUMP IS AN ACCELERANT, HE IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS POURED TONS OF GASOLINE ON A FIRE THAT ALREADY EXISTED.

AND HE IS ADDING TO THE DIFFICULTIES THAT WE HAVE.

ADDING EVEN MORE BECAUSE HE IS ALSO PROMOTING A CULTURE OF AND ABETTED THE VIOLENCE INSURRECTION.

IT TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE THAT MANY REPUBLICANS WANT DONALD TRUMP TO BE THE SPEAKER.

AND IN FACT, HE HAS NOW SAID HE MAY COME TO WASHINGTON AND COME TO CONGRESS TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT.

THAT WOULD BE BIZARRE, OF COURSE.

WE HAVE NEVER HAD A SPEAKER , ARGUING THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE HOUSE SHALL CHOOSE THEIR SPEAKER COULD ALMOST EVERYBODY.

BUT THAT WOULD MAKE OUR DYSFUNCTION LOOK MILD BY COMPARISON , OUR DYSFUNCTION NOW.

BUT TRUMP IS THE LEADER OF THE CULT , THE CULT PRECEDED HIM , AND IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT IF DONALD TRUMP FADES FROM PUBLIC VIEW, WHETHER HE IS OFF TO PRISON OR JUST NO LONGER AROUND US , THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE NOW , A PARTY THAT IS A NIHILIST PARTY , THEY ARE STILL GOING TO BE THERE.

THE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS, THE PEOPLE IN STATE LEGISLATURES AND CITY COUNCILS, NOW EVEN MORE, IN SCHOOL BOARD, WHO ARE GOING TO MOVE UP TO BE THE NEXT GENERATION ARE NOT EXACTLY PROBLEM SOLVING MAINSTREAM CONSERVATIVES.

THIS IS NOT CONSERVATISM ANYMORE.

IT IS RADICALISM , DESTRUCTIVE RADICALISM.

>> YOU ARE SEEING FISSURES AMONG REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE, NOT REALLY UNDERSTANDING WHAT THEIR COLLEAGUES IN THE HOUSE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW.

ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU , NORM, THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THINGS INTO PERSPECTIVE FOR US.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> NOW WE TURN TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE IDENTITY TRAFFIC.

YASCHA MOUNK HAS BUILT HIS ACCLAIMED SCHOLARLY CAREER OF BEING THE FIRST TO WARN THE RIGHT RING DEMOCRACY.

IN HIS LATEST BOOK HE IS WARNING THAT MANY ON THE LEFT AND CENTER ARE ALSO STRUCK IN A TRAP, AND OBSESSED WITH GROUP IDENTITY.

LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO IT, YASCHA MOUNK JOINS ME.

NOT EVERY DAY WE HAVE TWO BACK- TO-BACK POLITICAL SCIENTIST ON THE PROGRAM.

TO SEE YOU , AND CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

SO FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ IT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHAT THE IDENTITY TRAP IS?

>> YEAH, SO YOU KNOW, LIKE YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST , I LIKE TO SAY THAT I'M A DEMOCRACY CRISIS HIPSTER, I WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE CRISIS OF DEMOCRACY BEFORE IT WAS COOL AND I REMAIN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE DANGEROUS FAR RIGHT POPULISTS WHO WERE NOW IN CONTROL OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AT THE SAME TIME, SOMEBODY WHO IS A PROFESSOR, WHO IS A MEMBER OF MANY MAINSTREAM INSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK WE ARE STRUCK BY AN IDEOLOGICAL TRANSFORMATION ON THE MY SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ON THE POLITICAL LEFT, THERE IS A NEW SET OF IDEAS ABOUT RACE AND GENDER AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND THE WAY WE SHOULD TREAT EACH OTHER.

THE ROLE THAT OUR BELONGING A PARTICULAR GROUP SHOULD PLAY THAT HAS BECOME VERY PROMINENT OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST DECADE.

I THINK THAT THESE IDEAS ARE ALLURING FOR UNDERSTANDING THE REASONS THEY CLAIM, THAT THEY TO DO AWAY WITH A GENUINE INJUSTICE IS THAT PERSIST IN OUR SOCIETIES.

BUT I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY THAT TRAP , BECAUSE AS WE HAVE SEEN, WE HAVE MADE IT MUCH HARDER FOR INSTITUTIONS TO SERVE THE IMPORTANT MISSIONS BECAUSE OF A KIND OF MELTDOWNS IN THESE ORGANIZATIONS , THESE NORMS HAVE INSPIRED.

IT IS A TRAP BECAUSE IN MANY OF OUR SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES IN THE UNITED STATES NOW, PEDAGOGUES HAVE STARTED TO TAKE TO TEACH STUDENTS TO THINK OF THEMSELVES PRIMARILY AS RACIAL BEINGS, BUILDING THESE CHILDREN'S UP INTO THE FRONT RACIAL GROUPS WHICH I THINK IS GOING TO INCREASE ZERO-SUM CONFLICT BETWEEN GROUPS RATHER THAN MAKE US EMPHASIZE THE WAY WE COULD POLITICALLY OPERATE.

I THINK IT IS A POLITICAL TRAP, AS WELL.

BECAUSE ACTUALLY THERE ARE MANY POLES NOW THAT SHOW THAT THESE IDEAS ARE PUSHING SOME PEOPLE INTO THE ARMS OF DANGEROUS EXTREMISTS LIKE DONALD TRUMP, ACCORDING TO ONE RECENT ANALYSIS BY THE NEW YORK TIMES, 10% OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS NOW ARE DOMINANTLY YOUNG, PREDOMINANTLY QUITE LEFT- LEANING ON SOCIAL ISSUES BUT SO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY CALL, WOKENESS, THAT THEY INTEND TO VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK UNDERSTANDING THESE IDEAS AND LEARNING HOW TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THEM IN A PRINCIPLED WAY AND FIGHTING THIS FORMER FAR RIGHT POPULISM ONTO SEPARATE ENDEAVORS, WE NEED TO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

>> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE YOUR NOTICING THAT WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN THIS BOOK ACTUALLY LEADS, IN YOUR RESEARCH, TO CONTINUED FAR RIGHT POPULISM.

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IDEOLOGY THAT YOU FOCUS ON HAS GAINED SO MUCH MOMENTUM SO RAPIDLY?

>> WELL, TO ME THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT POLITICAL TRADITIONS THAT ARE REALLY FIGHTING AGAINST EACH OTHER HERE.

ONE IS THE TRADITION OF FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND CERTAIN RESPECTS ABRAHAM LINCOLN AND MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND THOSE OF THE PEOPLE THAT RECOGNIZE THE DEEP HYPOCRISY OF RECOGNIZE THAT AMERICA HAD NEVER LIVED UP TO THE GRAND PRINCIPLES WRITTEN IN ITS CONSTITUTION.

BUT THEY SAID, AS FREDERICK DOUGLASS DID, THE RIGHT CONCLUSION IS NOT THE FIRST OPTION, IT IS TO GET RID OF THOSE ASPIRATIONS, IT IS TO PUSH AND ORGANIZE AND FIGHT FOR US TO LIVE UP TO THEM.

HE RECOGNIZED FREE SPEECH, LOT OF PEOPLE TO SAY TERRIBLE THINGS IN HIS DAY BUT HE SAID IT IS THE DREAD OF TYRANTS BECAUSE IT ALSO ALLOWS ABOLITIONISTS TO FIGHT FOR POLITICAL CAUSES.

I THINK PEOPLE WHO FEEL , BECAUSE OF POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT OVER THE LAST DECADE, BECAUSE CELL PHONES AND OTHER THINGS WE HAVE MORE EVIDENCE OF THE REMAINING INJUSTICES IN THE UNITED STATES LIKE POLICE VIOLENCE THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO MAKE ANY PROGRESS, THE FOUNDER OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY CLAIMED IN 1950 OR IN 1850.

THEREFORE PERHAPS WE SHOULD GET RID OF WHAT HE CALLS A DEFUNCT RACIAL EQUALITY IDEOLOGY OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE HOW PEOPLE CAN COME TO THINK THAT.

MY BOOK IS CALLED THE IDENTITY TRAP THE TRAP HAS A LOWER .

SOMETHING THAT ATTRACTS PEOPLE.

I CAN SEE WHY PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO THIS PARTICULAR LUER.

BUT I NEVER REALIZED THINK IT IS A TRAP.

IT IS VEERING AWAY FROM THAT PROUD POLITICAL TRADITION ROOTED IN PEOPLE LIKE FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND AM OKAY THAT HAS ACTUALLY HISTORICALLY ALLOWED US TO MAKE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS IN OVERCOMING HISTORICAL INJUSTICES.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT A COUPLE OF CASE STUDIES.

ONE IS A MOTHER IN ATLANTA WHO WASN'T ABLE TO REQUEST A SPECIFIC TEACHER FOR HER CHILD , THE SCHOOL PRINCIPAL HAD DENIED THAT REQUEST AND PLACED HER CHILD AND WHAT SHE CALLS THE BLACK CLASS.

THE MOTHER OF THE CHILD AND THE PRINCIPAL WERE ALL BLACK, IN THIS CASE.

WHAT IS THIS INCIDENT TELL YOU ABOUT BROADER TRENDS IN AMERICA?

COULD YOU JUST DESCRIBED THIS AS A ONE OFF ?

THESE AREN'T TYPES OF CASES, THEY ARE SO GLARING THAT IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS SPEAKING TO A BIGGER TREND THAT WE ARE SEEING NATIONWIDE.

>> SO UNFORTUNATELY , FOR THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT IS AN EXTREME ONE, IT IS ROOTED IN A MUCH BROADER TREND .

AS YOU ARE SAYING, THE PRINCIPAL IN THIS CASE, IS A BLACK WOMAN WHO IS A PROGRESSIVE AND WHO THOUGHT THAT IT IS HER DUTY TO TEACH CHILDREN TO THINK OF THEMSELVES AS RACIAL BEINGS .

WE SEE NOW MANY SCHOOLS AROUND THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY IN THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN PLACES LIKE NEW YORK CITY AND WASHINGTON, D.C. AND LOS ANGELES, START TO SEPARATE CHILDREN INTO DISTINCT RACIAL GROUPS IN THIRD GRADE, AND SECOND GRADE, IN FIRST GRADE.

TEACHERS COMING IN AND TELLING KIDS IF YOU ARE BLACK , IF YOU ARE LATINO YOU GO TO THAT CLASSROOM, IF YOU'RE ASIAN- CLASSROOM, IF YOU'RE WHITE YOU GO TO THIS CLASSROOM HERE.

THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS TO ALLOW THEM TO FIGHT BACK, TO ORGANIZE, TO HAVE SOME SOLIDARITY.

I THINK IT IS ENCOURAGING THE KIND OF ZERO-SUM ETHNIC CONFLICT WHICH ALWAYS ENDS UP PROFITING THE RIGHT.

I AM PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO WHITE CHILDREN IN THESE GROUPS.

NOT BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE UNCOMFORTABLE.

I THINK IT IS GREAT AND FINE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE IN EDUCATION SOMETIMES.

RATHER BECAUSE EVERYTHING IN HISTORY AND A QUALITY TEACHES YOU THAT ONCE YOU THINK OF A GROUP AS YOUR ANGER, YOU'RE GOING TO TREAT THOSE PEOPLE BETTER AND PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF OTHER GROUPS WORSE, THIS IS MEANT TO INSPIRE ANTIRACISM, I THINK IT IS MORE LIKELY TO INSPIRE RACISM.

>> YOU'RE THE PROFESSOR, YOU'RE THE EXPERT AND YOU KEEP ON SAYING YOU THINK.

I AM WONDERING, IS THIS ALL HAPPENING SO RAPIDLY THAT WE DON'T HAVE CONCRETE EVIDENCE AND DATA POINTS TO BACKUP YOUR HYPOTHESIS?

OR DO YOU HAVE SPECIFIC EVIDENCE SUGGESTING THAT IS IN CLEAR THERE IS LOTS OF SPECIFIC EVIDENCE OF THIS HAPPENING BUT NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS HAS SUPPORTED THE POLICY OF SPLITTING CHILDREN UP AS YOUNG AS THE FIRST GRADE INTO THESE DIFFERENT GROUPS.

IT HAS GIVEN DIVERSITY AWARDS TO SCHOOLS THAT PRACTICE THIS.

>> I'M NOT ARGUING THAT IT'S NOT, I'M NOT ARGUING THAT IT IS NOT TAKING PLACE.

I AM JUST ASKING YOU, SOME OF THE RAMIFICATIONS THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT AND THAT YOU WARN OF GIVEN THESE NEW POLICIES.

HAVE WE SEEN THE OUTCOME AT ALL?

OR IS IT TOO SOON TO TELL?

>> ABSOLUTELY WE HAVE SEEN MANY MEMBERS OF THOSE GROUPS ACTUALLY EMBRACE MORE FORMS OF FAR RIGHT POLITICS.

ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING PHENOMENA THAT YOU SEE AT THE MOMENT IS THAT YOUNG BOYS HAVE STARTED TO BE ATTRACTED MUCH MORE TO THE FAR RIGHT THAN YOUNG GIRLS .

THERE IS NOW A HUGE GENDER DIVIDE IN THE PARTISAN AFFILIATION OF YOUNG AMERICAN VOTERS.

THE MOST THAT THEY ARE PART OF THE PRIVILEGED GROUP THAT HAS TO OWN THEIR WHITE AND MALE PRIVILEGE ARE ALSO, AT THIS POINT, MOST LIKELY TO VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH IS DANGEROUS FOR ALL OTHER REGIONS.

IT USED TO NOT BE THE CASE 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO.

THAT GENDER GAP HAS GROWN ENORMOUSLY OVER A NUMBER OF DECADES.

LISA WHEN YOU'RE ASKED A QUESTION WHAT ALARMS YOU MOST, WHETHER IT IS RIGHT WING POPULISM AND CENSORSHIP AND BOOK BANNING OR WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IN THIS BOOK, I KNOW YOU ENCOURAGE YOUR STUDENTS TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS AND DIRECTIONS IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS AND TO THINK CRITICALLY, ALSO NOTED THAT SOME OF HER TEACHINGS WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES IN FLORIDA.

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION?

>> I AM MORE RIGHT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, I'M MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAN I AM ABOUT SOME OF THESE RECENT INTELLECTUAL TRENDS.

BUT I WILL SAY THE FIRST IS WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK AND TO GOVERN AT THE SAME TIME.

THAT WENT MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY CAN'T EXPRESS THE KINDS OF OPINIONS THAT I HAVE SAID IN THIS INTERVIEW OPENLY FOR FEAR OF CONSEQUENCES, WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN PART BECAUSE IT IS GOING TO UNDERMINE TRUST IN THOSE INSTITUTIONS, AS IT HAS.

BUT WE HAVE ADOPTED MANY REALLY WRONGHEADED PUBLIC POLICIES THAT HAVE LED, I BELIEVE, TO HIGH DEATH TOLL IN THE PANDEMIC BUT HAVE LED TO PEDAGOGICAL POLICIES BUT MAKE IT HARDER FOR MEMBERS OF MINORITY GROUP TO GET THE INSTRUCTION IN WRITING AND MATH THAT THEY NEED TO SUCCEED.

ALL THESE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT EVEN IF SOMETHING ELSE THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, I THINK IT IS A FALSE CHOICE TO SAY THAT YOU SHOULD EITHER FIGHT AGAINST FAR RIGHT EXTREMISM AND POPULISM OR AGAINST SOME OF THESE TRENDS ON THE LEFT.

THESE IDEAS HAVE BECOME SO INFLUENTIAL ON THE LEFT BECAUSE CRITICIZE HIM WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF BEING A TRAITOR, OF RUNNING INTERFERENCE FOR THEM BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE GENUINELY SCARED OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT TODAY, THE HOLD THAT THESE IDEAS HAVE OVER MAINSTREAM INSTITUTIONS IS THE BIGGEST GIFT TO DONALD TRUMP, MAKES IT MUCH EASIER FOR HIM TO WIN ELECTIONS IN 2024 .

ACCORDING TO POLLS, I DON'T SHARE THIS OPINION BUT ACCORDING TO POLLS, MORE AMERICANS THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS TOO EXTREME, THEY THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS TOO EXTREME.

SO EVEN IDEOLOGIES MAY HAVE DIFFERENT POLITICALLY AND PRACTICALLY SPEAKING, ONE IS INTO THE OTHERS FACTUALLY A POST ONE WE SHOULD OPPOSE BOTH.

>> AND THE MINUTE AND A HALF WE HAVE LEFT, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT SOME SOLUTIONS THAT YOU OFFER?

>> YES, OF COURSE.

PART OF THE SOLUTION IS TO THINK ABOUT THINGS IN A MORE SENSIBLE WAY.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO CULTURAL ON A GENERAL POLL OF SUSPICION THE EXACT KINDS OF MUTUAL CULTURAL INFLUENCE WHICH IS A HALLMARK OF THRIVING DIVERSITY MARKERS.

WE SHOULD CELEBRATE WHEN PEOPLE INSPIRE EACH OTHER, CO-CREATE WITH EACH OTHER, RATHER THAN WORRYING ABOUT IT.

BUT THE OTHER SOLUTION I WOULD POINT TO IS OLD-FASHIONED UNIVERSAL WELFARE STATE, WE SHOULD BE DOING SOMETHING TO HELP ALL FOUR CHILDREN IN A PLACE LIKE THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE ALL CHILDREN ARE RESPECTIVE OF THEIR SKIN COLOR DESSERT THAT HELPED THOSE POLICIES ARE LIKELY TO GAIN MAJORITIES AND POLICIES THAT ARE DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY TO A RACIAL GROUP AND BECAUSE THEY CAN EVEN HELP TO OVERCOME HISTORICAL INJUSTICE .

IF YOU HAVE UNIVERSAL POLICIES COMBATING CHILD POVERTY, THEY ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY GOING TO HELP GROUPS THAT HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF CHILDREN WHO SUFFER FROM CHILD POVERTY.

>> IS A REALLY INTERESTING TOPIC AND FASCINATING BOOK, I'M GLAD WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ARE JUST TOO NERVOUS TO EVEN RAISE AND BRUSH THIS TOPIC.

THERE ARE SOME REALLY CONSEQUENTIAL OUTCOMES FROM SOME OF THESE TRENDS .

WOULD LOVE TO COME TO YOUR CLASS AND SIT IN ON ONE OF YOUR LECTURES, AS WELL.

YASCHA MOUNK, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, I'M OFF TO TEACH MY CLASS NOW.

>> OKAY, I WILL COME NEXT TIME.

>>> UP NEXT, TO THE TRIAL OF SAM BANKMAN-FRIED, THE FORMER CRYPTO WONDER KID AND CEO OF THE NOW BANKRUPT CRYPTOCURRENCY EXCHANGE, FTX, IS TAKING SEVERAL CRIMINAL CHARGES OF FRAUD AND MONEY LAUNDERING.

WHEN HIS EMPIRE CAME CRASHING DOWN LAST YEAR, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WERE LEFT EMPTY-HANDED AND INVESTORS LOST BILLIONS.

PROFILED BANK BEEN FREED AND HIS FAMILY FOR THE NEW YORKER AND JOINS US TO DISCUSS HER REPORTING.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT IS GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOU SPENT TIME WITH SAM BANKMAN-FRIED, ALSO KNOWN AS SPF, HIS TRIAL IS NOW STARTING, AUDIENCE WHO MIGHT NOT KNOW ALL OF THIS, WHAT IS HE CHARGED WITH, WHAT IF YOU FACING?

>> SAM OWNED TWO COMPANIES THAT WERE VERY INTERCONNECTED, SO ONE WAS CALLED ALAMEDA RESEARCH.

IT WAS BASICALLY A HEDGE FUND VANISHING A PRIVATE POOL OF MONEY , INVESTING ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY IN CRYPTO RELATED THINGS , YOU KNOW, TOKENS, CURRENCIES, CRYPTO COMPANIES .

AND THE OTHER COMPANY WAS CALLED FTX, AND THAT WAS AN EXCHANGE WHERE PEOPLE COULD SEND ORDERS TO BUY OR SELL O.R.

BORROW CRYPTO ASSETS AND THEY WOULD TRADE ON THAT EXCHANGE.

AND CUSTOMERS WOULD COME TO FTX , THEY WOULD OPEN AN ACCOUNT THERE, THEY WOULD DEPOSIT A BUNCH OF MONEY JUST LIKE YOU WOULD AT EáTRADE OR CHARLES SCHWAB OR FIDELITY AND THEY WOULD PLAN TO USE THAT MONEY TO BUY OR SELL BIT GOING FOR ETHERIUM OR THE DOZENS OF OTHER CRYPTO TOKENS THAT WERE TRADING AT THE TIME.

AND HE IS BASICALLY ACCUSED OF TAKING THAT CUSTOMER MONEY AND USING IT FOR OTHER THINGS , MOSTLY HAVING TO DO WITH OTHER PARTS OF THE COMPANY , WITHOUT THE EXPLICIT PERMISSION OF THOSE CUSTOMERS.

AND THE GOVERNMENT IS REALLY ALLEGING THAT THIS WAS GOING ON FROM THE TIME FTX WAS LAUNCHED , WHICH WAS IN 2019.

THEY ARE SAYING THAT FROM THAT TIME, UNTIL IT WENT UNDER LAST FALL/WINTER , HE WAS MISUSING AND MISHANDLING CUSTOMER FUNDS.

>> GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW HIGH THE HIGHS WERE FOR FTX AND FOR SAM BANKMAN-FRIED.

THIS IS A COMPANY THAT TOOK OUT SUPER BOWL ADS.

HAD ENORMOUS CELEBRITY ENDORSEMENTS.

AND WHAT WAS IT WORTH AT ITS PEAK?

>> IT WAS ALLEGED TO BE WORTH $32 BILLION OR THEREABOUTS DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ASK AND YOU KNOW, SAM HIMSELF APPEARED ON THE COVER OF FORBES AND FORTUNE AND HE WAS DECLARED THE NEXT WARREN BUFFETT AND THE YOUNGEST MULTIBILLIONAIRE , ONE OF HIS INVESTORS SAID PUBLICLY IN A PROFILE PUBLISHED HE MIGHT BE THE FIRST BILLIONAIRE THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN .

INVESTORS WERE FIGHTING TO INVEST IN THE COMPANY, IT WAS LIKE THIS ROCKETSHIP, IT WILL BE THE NEXT FACEBOOK.

HE ULTIMATELY RAISED TWO MEN DOLLARS FROM VENTURE CAPITAL INVESTORS.

VERY EXPERIENCED GROWN-UPS WHO SHOULD KNOW RED FLAGS WHEN THEY SEE THEM.

DID NOT PAY ATTENTION.

AND YES, HE WAS BENDING LAVISHLY ON SUPER BOWL ADS, CELEBRITY ENDORSEMENTS , GENERAL MARKETING, TRYING TO BRING MORE PEOPLE INTO TRADING AT FTX.

>> YOU ALSO GOT VERY INVOLVED IN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS, RIGHT?

>> HE DID , AND THERE IS SOME CONFUSION AROUND EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO POLITICALLY.

HE SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON CAPITOL HILL MEETING WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, THEIR STAFFS, REGULATORS , OSTENSIBLY TRYING TO EDUCATE THESE PEOPLE ABOUT CRYPTO AND WHY IT SHOULD BECOME A FULLY LEGALIZED IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IT STILL IS NOT , HE REALLY HE SAID THAT HE WANTED TO BRING LEGITIMACY TO THIS INDUSTRY.

AND SO THAT WAS A BIG PART OF HIS POLITICAL ACTIVITY.

THE PART OF HIS POLITICAL ACTIVITY INVOLVED FUNDING PEOPLE WHO HE FELT WOULD HELP UPHOLD DEMOCRACY DURING THE ERA FOR PRESIDENT AND EVEN AFTER HE BECAME PRESIDENT THERE WERE A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, SO HE DID FUND SOME CANDIDATES IN THAT REALM, AND THEN THE LAST SORT OF BUCKET WAS PHILANTHROPIC ORIENTED POLITICAL GIVING WHERE HE WAS GIVING MONEY TO CANDIDATES WHO HE HOPED WOULD PURSUE CAUSES IN CONGRESS THAT HE THOUGHT WERE IMPORTANT TO THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY.

>> PART OF THIS ETHOS THAT YOU MENTIONED, YOU WRITE ABOUT EFFECTIVE ALL TOURISM.

SOMETHING THAT SAM BANKMAN-FRIED WAS A FOLLOWER OF THIS IDEA.

EXPLAIN THAT FOR US.

>> EFFECTIVE ALL TOURISM IS REALLY INTERESTING PHILOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT.

IT IS REALLY BASED AROUND THE WORK OF PETER SINGER, AN AUSTRALIAN PHILOSOPHER WHO HAS RECENTLY RENOUNCED, ANNOUNCED HIS RETIREMENT FROM PRINCETON.

HE WROTE SOME VERY THOUGHTFUL , THOUGHT-PROVOKING THINGS ABOUT QUESTIONS OF MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES.

SO IF WE ARE HERE IN THE WEST BUYING THINGS THAT WE DON'T NEED, BUYING SHOES AND FLATSCREEN TVs, TAKING CABS, WE DON'T NEED THOSE THINGS .

AND THERE ARE PEOPLE IN OTHER PLACES STARVING BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BUY FOOD.

HE BASICALLY SAID WE SHOULD BE CONTRIBUTING THAT MONEY THAT WE ARE RESPONSIBLE, WE ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT SUFFERING.

SO THIS MOVEMENT CALLED EFFECTIVE ALTRUISM, IT SEEMED TO REALLY BECOME VERY POPULAR WITH A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTANDABLY WERE DISAFFECTED WITH THE WORLD AND THE IMPOTENCE OF OUR POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS TO TACKLE SERIOUS EXISTENTIAL PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE.

POVERTY , INEQUALITY, CLIMATE, SO ON.

APPEALED TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH QUANTITATIVE MATTHEY INTERESTS.

SO A LOT OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE WERE ENCOURAGED TO GO OUT INTO THE WORLD , EARN AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY COULD, PURSUE HIGH- PAYING JOBS, AND GIVE AWAY ALL OF THE MONEY THAT THEY DIDN'T REALLY NEED TO SURVIVE TO SAVE LIVES IN OTHER PLACES.

AND IS A VERY INTERESTING PHILOSOPHY BUT THERE WERE SOME REAL WEAK SPOTS BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO EARN MONEY DOING ALL SORTS OF QUESTIONABLE THINGS BUT THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO GET THE MONEY AWAY IT DIDN'T MATTER THAT THEY WERE WORKING IN THIS DUBIOUS INDUSTRY OR THAT THEY WERE WORKING ON WALL STREET WHEN THEY COULD'VE BEEN WORKING IN PUBLIC HEALTH OR IN EDUCATION, HELPING PEOPLE DIRECTLY.

THEY WERE EARNING TO GIVE THAT WAS THE PHILOSOPHY.

>> ADDING TO THE INTERESTING LAYERS OF THIS STORY IS WHERE SAM BANKMAN-FRIED COMES FROM .

I MEAN, HIS FAMILY, HIS DAD OR HIS MOM ARE RESPECTED INTELLECTUALS AT STANFORD.

TELL US ABOUT THAT, YOU GOT TO SPEND SOME TIME WITH THEM.

>> HIS PARENTS ARE BOTH VERY INTERESTING, ACCOMPLISHED PEOPLE , THEY ARE BELOVED ON THE STANFORD CAMPUS.

THEY ARE BOTH PROFESSORS AT STANFORD LAW SCHOOL.

VERY STEEPED IN THE CULTURE OF STAMFORD.

THEY , FOR DECADES, HAVE HAD THESE INFORMAL SUNDAY NIGHT DINNERS WHERE OTHER FACULTY MEMBERS AND GUESTS WOULD SHOW UP AT THEIR HOME AND THEY WOULD JUST HAVE A BIG MEAL AND DRINK WINE AND TALK ABOUT ALL SORTS OF THINGS FROM DEMOCRACY TO ANCIENT GREECE TO MOVIES AND POLITICS.

SO SAM AND HIS BROTHER, THEY GREW UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

THEY WERE ASKED THOSE DINNERS , YOU KNOW, THEY LOVED TALKING WITH ADULTS FROM AN EARLY AGE, ALMOST MORE THAN THEY COULD RELATE TO OTHER KIDS AND ONE THING SAM'S PARENTS SAID WHEN I WAS RECORDING MY NEW YORKER ARTICLE WAS THAT SAM SEEMED SO INTELLECTUALLY PRECOCIOUS , THEY SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT HE HAD ADEQUATE INTELLECTUAL STIMULATION.

THEY SOUGHT OUT SPECIAL MATH CLASSES, THEY SENT HIM TO SUMMER CAMP IN HIGH SCHOOL, YOU HAD TO DO A REALLY DIFFICULT TEST TO GET INTO.

AND THEY REVERED HIM THEY REALLY DID.

THEY THOUGHT HE WAS BRILLIANT AND MY SENSE IS THAT THEY DID NOT QUESTION HIS DECISIONS.

HE MADE HIS OWN DECISION, HE PURSUED HIS OWN PATH .

ALTHOUGH THEY CERTAINLY HELPED HIM WHEN THEY COULD , THEY DID NOT INTERVENE.

PERHAPS ULTIMATELY THEY SHOULD HAVE INTERVENED, MARK.

>> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU POINT OUT THAT HIS FATHER TOOK A LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM HIS VERY RESPECTED JOB AT STANFORD TO GO TO WORK FOR HIS SON, AND THE FATHER'S RESEARCH AND TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS TALKS ABOUT TAX HAVENS AND HOW TO CLOSE TAX LOOPHOLES.

BUT HERE HE IS, SITTING IN THE BAHAMAS , WITH HIS SON.

>> SAM'S FATHER IS A VERY WELL RESPECTED EXPERT ON TAX LAW.

SO WHEN FTX WAS STARTING OUT, IT WAS IN, IT WAS INITIALLY IN HONG KONG AND IT MOVED TO THE BAHAMAS.

ALL SORTS OF TAX QUESTIONS AND OTHER LEGAL QUESTIONS.

SO SAM'S DAD WAS ROLLED UP HIS SLEEVES AND WAS HELPING OUT AS MUCH AS HE COULD.

OVER TIME HE BECAME MORE INVOLVED.

AS THE COMPANY BECAME SO SEEMINGLY SUCCESSFUL , WAS PLEDGING TO GIVE AWAY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THROUGH A FOUNDATION THAT FTX STARTED.

HE HAD ULTIMATELY ATTRACTED HIS DAD TO TAKE TIME OFF FROM HIS JOB THAT HE LOVES AT STANFORD, AND MOVED TO NASSAU AND HELP FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIND WORTHY, CHARITABLE PROJECTS TO INVEST THIS FTX PHILANTHROPIC MONEY INTO.

TO HIM I THINK, AT THE TIME, IT WAS SORT OF A DREAM JOB BECAUSE WHO WOULDN'T LIKE TO GIVE AWAY A LOT OF MONEY TO WORTHY CAUSES?

SO HE EMBRACED IT.

>> YOU WRITE THAT HIS MOM IS LITERALLY THE EXPERT ON ETHICS, AND SHE IS SOMEBODY THAT PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD REQUEST AND I WONDER , IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH HER , DID YOU GET A SENSE THAT SHE EVER QUESTIONED THE ETHICS OF HER SON?

DID SHE EVER SEPARATE OUT THE FACT THAT SHE HAS THIS MATERNAL INSTINCT TO WANT TO PROTECT HER CHILD?

VERSUS WHAT SAM HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF ?

>> THAT IS A REALLY REMARKABLE THING ABOUT THE FAMILY DYNAMIC, THE PORTRAIT PAINTED OF SAM BY THE PROSECUTORS AND EVEN BY THE BANKRUPTCY LAWYERS TRYING TO SORT THROUGH THE COMPANY NOW IS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE ONE THAT SAM HIMSELF PORTRAYED AND THAT HIS FAMILY HOLDS OF HIM.

AND ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE MOMENTS, FOR ME, REPORTING ON THIS, WAS WHEN I ASKED SAM'S MOM, BARBARA, WHO IS A VERY VERY SMART RIGOROUS THINKER , IMPRESSIVE WOMAN, I ASKED HER DID YOU READ THIS INDICTMENT AND HAVE TO KIND OF GO TO HIM AND SAY SAM, DID YOU DO ANY OF THESE THINGS?

WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT ACCUSING YOU UP?

HOW CAN YOU SING THIS?

SHE SAID NO SHE NEVER EVEN HAD TO GO AND ASK HIM ABOUT IT.

SHE JUST KNEW, SHE KNEW HIS CHARACTER, SHE KNEW HE WOULD NEVER INTENTIONALLY STEAL MONEY OR DEFRAUD ANYONE, AND I DID FIND THAT SHOCKING BUT SHE SAID NO, AND SHE VERY FIRMLY BELIEVES THAT HE IS INNOCENT, THAT HE COULD HAVE SORTED ALL OF THIS OUT IF HE HAD GIVEN A LITTLE MORE TIME TO KIND OF SELL SOME ASSETS, COULD PAYBACK HIS CUSTOMERS, EVERYTHING WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE.

OF COURSE, LEGALLY BIG QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER, IF HE HADN'T DONE THAT WHETHER THAT WOULD HAVE MEANT HE HAD NOT COMMITTED A CRIME.

CERTAINLY MANY PEOPLE THAT EVEN IF YOU MANAGE TO PAY THE CUSTOMERS BACK IN THE END, HAVING DONE SOMETHING WITH THEIR MONEY THAT THEY WEREN'T EXPECTING IS WRONG.

THAT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER.

SHE IS CONVINCED .

AND IT SEEMS LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF, IN A WAY, THE STORY FOR ME WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE POWER OF MATERNAL LOVE AND DEVOTION BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE IMPLYING THE ETHICAL RIGOR AND ANALYSIS THAT SHE DOES TO MOST THINGS IN HER LIFE TO HER SON.

>> I WONDER RIGHT NOW, PARENTS ARE NOT CRIMINALLY CHARGED WITH , THERE ARE CIVIL LAWSUITS AGAINST FTX, RIGHT?

>> THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT OUT OF LEGAL PERIL.

FOR STARTERS, IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR GOVERNMENT PROSECUTORS WHO HAVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE THEY CAN WIELD ON PEOPLE TO USE FAMILY MEMBERS AS LEVERAGE ON DEFENDANTS.

EITHER EXPLICITLY OR INDIRECTLY.

AND IT IS NOTABLE THAT JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE AND SAM BANKMAN- FRIED'S TRIAL STARTED THE BANKRUPTCY STATE FILED A HUGE LAWSUIT AGAINST HIS PARENTS WHERE THEY HAVE HAD ALMOST A YEAR TO JUST MINE ALL THEIR PERSONAL EMAILS, THEY PRINTED ALL SORTS OF SALACIOUS STUFF, PARTLY INTENDED TO REALLY INTIMIDATE THEM RIGHT BEFORE THIS TRIAL EVEN THOUGH THEY MADE SOME VALID POINTS.

AND IN COURT , IN LOWER MANHATTAN, THE PROSECUTOR DID SAY THAT SAM'S PARENTS , JOE AND BARBARA, AND HIS BROTHER, GABRIEL, COULD BE CALLED AS WITNESSES.

THEY WERE INCLUDED ON A LONG LIST OF POTENTIAL WITNESSES SO WE WILL HAVE TO SEE IF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, OBVIOUSLY THAT WILL BE A REALLY TRICKY POSITION FOR THEM .

BUT I THINK WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL SAM'S TRIAL IS OVER.

MORE WHAT LIES IN STORES FOR HIS PARENTS.

>> I WONDER IF , HOW MUCH OF THIS IS THE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF SAM BANKMAN-FRIED?

>> WHAT FTX WAS DOING WAS PRETTY MUCH OUT IN THE OPEN.

I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT IN SOME COURT FILINGS THE NEW CEO OF FTX DESCRIBED FTX BEFORE THE COLLAPSE AS A DUMPSTER FIRE.

HE SAYS OH IT WAS JUST LIKE A DISASTER.

WELL, IF THAT IS THE CASE, WHY DID SOMEONE PICK UP ON THAT SOONER?

WHY DID GOVERNMENT REGULATORS NOTICE IF IT WAS SUCH A THREAT TO AMERICAN INVESTORS ?

WHY DID THE S.E.C.

DO SOMETHING?

WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL THIS HUGE BUBBLE BLEW UP IN THIS INDUSTRY?

AND THEN ONE AFTER THE OTHER THESE THINGS COLLAPSED LIKE A BUNCH OF DOMINOES, CREATE ALL THIS FINANCIAL DESTRUCTION .

OFTEN ARE EXPOSED BY REPORTERS, FRANKLY.

CHARGE EVERYBODY, IT LEAVES ME WONDERING WHY DIDN'T YOU BECOME A LITTLE MORE PROACTIVE SOONER?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT THAT SAM BANKMAN-FRIED IS BASICALLY , WAS AT HIS HOME WORKING ON HIS DEFENSE.

HE MAINTAINS HIS INNOCENCE THROUGH ALL THIS?

>> HE MAINTAINS HIS INNOCENCE.

AND FROM WHAT I CAN TELL, IT IS SINCERELY HELD.

HE IS ADAMANT THAT HE DID NOT INTENTIONALLY DEFRAUD ANYONE OR DO ANYTHING HE THOUGHT WAS IMPROPER.

HE SEEMS TO STILL THINK HE CAN EXPLAIN THAT TO A JURY AND EXPLAIN THAT TO THE WORLD AND MAKE EVERYONE UNDERSTAND THIS WAS AN INNOCENT MISTAKE, HE WAS MAYBE IN OVER HIS OWN HEAD.

BUT THAT HAS BEEN HIS POSITION FROM THE BEGINNING.

AND IT IS REMARKABLE BECAUSE WE RARELY SEE A TRIAL , A CASE LIKE THIS .

THIS SCALE GO TO TRIAL, USUALLY DEFENDANTS END UP PLEADING GUILTY BECAUSE A TRIAL IS AN EXCRUCIATING EXERCISE , THE ODDS ARE AGAINST YOU.

AND HE HAS FORGED AHEAD INTO AN ABSOLUTELY CHALLENGING SITUATION WHERE HE IS GOING TO BE THERE LISTENING DAY AFTER DAY TWO PEOPLE SAYING HE DID TERRIBLE THINGS.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> HE HAS SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE BEING TOLD THAT HE IS INTELLECTUALLY , COGNITIVELY SUPERIOR TO MOST PEOPLE.

HE WAS RAISED THAT WAY, HE WAS ALWAYS TOLD HE WAS SPECIAL AND BRILLIANT, HE WAS GIVEN ALL THESE OPPORTUNITIES.

HE WAS ALLOWED TO NOT DO THINGS HE DIDN'T WANT TO DO AND FOCUS ON CULTIVATING HIS BRAIN.

AND EVEN WHEN HE WAS RUNNING HIS BUSINESS, PEOPLE WOULD TELL ME STORIES, HE WOULD END UP IN MEETINGS ABOUT SOME PARTICULAR EXAMPLE BUSINESS AREA WITH A BUNCH OF EXPERTS, AND HE WOULD VERY QUICKLY BONE UP ON THE TOPIC AND SUDDENLY IT SEEMS LIKE MORE THAN ALL THE EXPERTS.

WHAT THAT IS ACTUALLY TRUE , YOU KNOW, I'M A LITTLE SKEPTICAL BUT HE REALLY THINKS HE KNOWS BEST.

AND IT IS HARD TO SEE, GIVEN WHAT HE IS FACING , THAT IT WILL GO THE WAY HE HOPES.

BUT WE WILL SEE.

>> STAFF WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER, SHEILA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS.

>>> FINALLY, FROM CRYPTO TO K- POP, WE ARE ABOUT TO MEET THE GIRL BAND , MAY HAVE, WHOSE FIRST VIDEO HAS BEEN VIEWED 26 MILLION TIMES IN JUST A FEW MONTHS.

THAT IS NOT THE MOST ASTONISHING THING.

TAKE A CLOSER LOOK GET CLOSER , THE BAND IS ACTUALLY AN ANTI- ASSISTED VIRTUAL CREATION.

IVAN WATSON GOES BEHIND THE IN AI GENERATED MUSIC.

>> A K-POP CONFECTION.

THIS VIDEO BY GIRL GROUP ETERNITY RACKED UP 6.5 MILLION VIEWS ON YOUTUBE IN NINE MONTHS.

BUT NOT ALL IS OUT AS IT APPEARS HERE.

>> MY NAME IS IVAN, WHAT IS YOUR NAME?

>> MY NAME IS JANE.

WE CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT YOUR BAND?

>> I'M FROM THE WORLD'S FIRST VIRTUAL K-POP GIRL GROUP, SHE TELLS ME.

JANE AND THE 10 OTHER MEMBERS OF ETERNITY AREN'T REAL.

TECH CONTAINMENT COMPANY PAUL STEIN CREATED THESE CHARACTERS AND FAYE SWAPPED THEM OVER HUMAN ACTORS USING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

I AM SPEAKING TO AN AI POPSTAR.

>> IS THIS THE FUTURE OF ENTERTAINMENT?

>> OF COURSE WE CANNOT BE SEEN IN PERSON BUT IF YOU HAVE A DEVICE YOU CAN COMMUNICATE WITH US ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME .

AS A VIRTUAL GROUP WE ARE NOT LIMITED BY LOCATION.

WE CAN BROADCAST ANYWHERE.

THE ONLY THING WE CANNOT DO IS SIGN AN AUTOGRAPH.

>> ETERNITY ISN'T THE ONLY AI K- POP CREATION.

MAEVE IS ANOTHER VIRTUAL GIRL BAND WITH VIDEOS THAT HAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF VIEWS.

CLEARLY PICTURED AND TURNED IT INTO 3-D IMAGES WITH AI.

>> META-VERSE ENTERTAINMENT CREATED MAEVE .

DESIGNERS SAY THE GOAL ISN'T TO TRY TO REPLACE HUMAN ARTISTS LIKE BTS OR BEYONCE .

INSTEAD, THEY WANT TO CREATE SOMETHING LIKE THE NEXT GENERATION OF THEORY .

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT WOULD BE AN AVATAR THAT SINGS AND DANCES, THAT YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO TALK TO.

CLEARLY THEY KNOW ABOUT YOU AND THEY WILL TALK BASED ON THAT >> AI CREATIONS WITH THEORETICALLY DEVELOP A UNIQUE RELATIONSHIP WITH EVERY USER AND BE AVAILABLE AROUND THE CLOCK ON EVERY DEVICE.

>> HI, EVERYONE.

THIS IS TYRA FROM MAEVE DESIGNERS ARE PROGRAMMING THESE AI POPSTAR'S TO INTERACT WITH FANS.

THE TECHNOLOGY STILL HAS A LONG WAY TO GO AND SOME PROGRAMMERS SEE THEIR NEED TO BE LAWS TO REGULATE THESE CREATIONS.

>> WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL, IF SOMEBODY CAN USE IT IT MAY BE A DISASTER.

>> DESIGNERS SAY UNLIKE HUMAN CELEBRITIES, THESE AI POPSTAR'S WANT AGE AND WON'T EVER TIRE OUT AND CAN DO ANYTHING THEY ARE PROGRAMMED TO DO.

>> IT IS LIKE SCIENCE FICTION TO BE TAKING OVER.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] YES, LIKE THE ROBOTS THAT CONQUER THE HUMAN WORLD, WE APPEAR TO CONQUER THE POP MUSIC WORLD TO STEAL PEOPLE'S HEARTS.

>> THIS MAY BE A GLIMPSE OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THE NOT TOO DISTANT FUTURE.

>> THAT WAS IVAN WATSON REPORTING.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.