>> welcome back.

We have a community activist working on the water crisis and that is our lead story enjoying the panel we have Stephen Henderson and Emily Lowery.

We get the inside out, off the record.

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>> welcome to this edition of off the record.

We are moving into a weekend which will have a change in the weather.

We have capitol correspondence and political gurus and a panel.

It's a great to have you on board.

Greg, what did we learn new this week about the problem in Benton Harbor?

>> we learned a couple of big things this week the first is, when the director of the state environmental department appeared before the house oversight committee this week she did not come up quickly with a straight answer on whether the water is safe to drink in Benton Harbor and then she eventually said she did not believe the water is safe to drink and so that was a fascinating moment in itself and we also learned the estates answer for why they all of a sudden have been focused on these issues answer is they are worried about what's going on there and they are worried about the effectiveness of the filters people are using in the city.

>> the central question is, should they have done something differently prior to what they are doing now?

>> no question they would have acted more swiftly this has been going on for some time and think of it this way, is there any day that you can say it is acceptable that people don't have access to clean drinking water?

Unfortunately here in Michigan there are many days that many people in our state do not have access to clean forgive what it does to clean drinking water.

And there are common problems we should think about like in Benton Harbor and Flint where we also have this problem.

We are not moving fast enough with the replacement of lead line and we are not moving fast enough with infrastructure.

These are small issues and problems but it can cause massive numbers of people to lose access to clean drinking water in a state in the country that is one of the wealthiest in the world.

It is not acceptable and it is not just the administration currently.

Were going back decades.

>> the governor has a two track problem here she has the public health problem and the potential political problem.

This is a dual challenge is facing.

>> absolutely.

We have learned from the director that she does not think the water is safe to drink and we think there has been a messaging problem when the state initially put the notice out and started delivering bottled water in a widespread manner they framed it as out of the abundance of caution.

The water is not safe to drink I would not say that is in out of abundance of caution.

People deserved a better warning on this and I think that a lot of this will trace back to really when the warning should have been more widespread and the tone has changed on how severe and serious the warnings are.

>> the second most interesting question yesterday was the question of what have you learned and what would you have done differently and basically she said I cannot answer that question right now because we are looking at it and maybe the message should have been clearly, the situation is not good we are reviewing it and may be some mistakes were made but they don't want to admit mistakes were made is that correct?

>> yes there is a strong appearance that they don't want to say they handle this wrong or improperly in any way would you can understand but there is a looming issue over the legislature that there are billions of dollars in Federal aid just sitting there in a putt that could be used right now to fix some of these embedded service line problems that are happening in all of these cities, many cities across the state and the money is not being allocated to be used right now and the question is, can the legislature both investigate what happened in Benton Harbor also recognizing that they have to take action to try to fix these problems because right now we have had is that -- because right now we have had oversight happening but we have not had votes on spending the money sitting there to combat the problem yet.

>> and to the point they want to get the lead pipes out in 18 months and you cannot do that on a dime you need more money in the mayor made a clear point saying or writing the -- saying write to the check we needed right now.

>> they need it yesterday, months ago.

These are not problems that -- there is an urgency of what is going on in Benton Harbor in that people do not have access to clean drinking water but there is a broader context here that is seeing as it ignore these problems that have been lurking beneath the surface and this has been happening in cities all over the state for really long time and what we need is for them to act swiftly in Benton Harbor and act deliberately in broader sense and really come up with a plan to spend the money that we will have two replace infrastructure that is not aiding us.

If you compare this to the situation in Southeast Michigan all Summer with the storms that are causing flooding all over the place with other kinds of infrastructure problems around the state, this is our major issue in Michigan and leadership has got to be focused on it all the time not just when there is a crisis.

>> the redistricting is that you also refuses to go away and gets more interesting by the minute, what did we learn about that this week?

>> certainly this has been a long process and we know that almost no one that I can think of is >> that would indicate that they got it right?

>> I think that is the answer we will see with the redistricting commission.

But really it garnered a lot of opposition particularly in Detroit and particularly from African-Americans who feel like the vote is split too many ways that they are cracked into different districts that take away a lot of the different block power or power that they have traditionally had at the pole and so really, honestly, just the breath of opposition to this has been incredible.

You have everyone from Detroit area Senators to elected officials to chair of the Michigan Democratic Party and the group that launched this hole initiative that created the commission has some issues with how they have conducted themselves and you have a Republican political consultants down there testifying against them and really it seems like almost no one is happy or completely happy with how this has gone.

>> we are talking about raw political in the African-American community and they are worried about losing the same.

>> that certainly is one dimension of this it is accompanied issue here in Detroit.

For starters, the people were hearing from the most our political representatives here in Detroit and actually this is not about them.

The process was taken away from the partisan elements that was in the legislature by the 2018 constitutional amendment.

The fact that representatives in Detroit are not happy about the map it does not matter the question is are the Detroit people better or worse represented by these new maps than the old one and the answer is kind of yes and kind of now.

It has been packed into districts of black voters are packed into districts for at least two map cycles now that really deny the -- any sort of influence outside the city for the folks who represent the city and you do have some Detroit representatives who represent parts of the suburbs but for the most part they're stuck in the city these maps to try to imagine a different reality.

There has been a lot said about this 40 percent number that the maps don't create majority African-American districts with somewhere between 40 and 50.

Nationally, black represented districts have amine black population of 40 percent until the likelihood that those districts will produce African-American representation is actually quite high.

Should you have some over 50?

That's a reasonable question to ask and the risible issue to discuss but the idea that we don't have one that is 50 is not as dire as it is being painted.

This comes out of a small data points out of the senses the fact that there are now more African-Americans living in the Detroit suburbs and there are living in the city of Detroit actually matters quite a bit in this map map drawing process and that is also one of the things I think the Detroit representatives are very worried about it these districts, in my view, increase the likelihood that you could have an African-American women in and represent people in the city.

We see that in Congress right now in the 14th industrial -- congressional district but we don't see in the state house.

These maps make this more popular -- possible and that's one of the things estate representatives in the city of Detroit who now have more control over worried about.

There are a bunch of good things going on and a bunch of different questions to ask for the great thing I think is that we do get to ask these questions as this is all happening in the public as the public has access to the maps and we get to say what we think as they will be drawing this with the public's interest in mind hopefully and not the legislature.

He clearly that is preferable to a room in Lansing but them major overriding issue is this this was sold to the electorate -- electorate is that we would end up with the districts that were competitive were both parties would have a equal chance of winning so we have a representative government that is not gerrymandered.

Are they on target to reach this goal?

>> from what we have seen so far broadly across the state they are on target to a degree because they are taking this into account where we are right now on October 22nd is preordained it has been preordained from 2018 with a ballot initiative took shape and was approved by voters.

It is a car crash of political -- a political car crash that we should have seen coming for three years if you make the districts more competitive you have to have districts that read from urban areas out into suburban or rural areas where there are more Republican voters.

You have to spread at the Democratic voters among the districts and that's where this debate is, how do you balance having competitive districts, more competitive, with this idea that you want to have minority communities represented in the legislature and this is what the commission has to figure out right now it's not surprising that this is a main battle point of this process.

>> it would change we currently have which is in many districts, the primary is a general election if you win the primary then you are in you to go to Florida for the fall campaign and come back and still be elected this supposedly will change that so that we have candidates running against one another who have a semi- equal chance of getting elected and getting the nomination.

Let's call in the good reverend from Benton Harbor who's working on the water crisis there it is good to see you sir are welcome to the program.

On a scale of one to ten with ten being absolutely fabulous, how is the administration doing on your water crisis, sir?

Question >> I would give her four on that.

And here's the reason.

The bottled water situation is in total chaos.

It is almost unheard of.

She is distributed bottled water there but probably 80 percent of the bottled water is going to the surrounding communities Benton, Saint Joe, all these other areas which are getting the water and so I would give her four just because at least 5,000 bottles of water going into the city.

>> talk about how things are in the community in Benton Harbor.

We have heard about the politics and the inaction in Lansing but you are on the ground interacting with people who are not getting access to clean water.

Give us a sense of what your days look like they -- they are.

>> this is what we do, they don't trust the mayor here and they don't trust the government because they understand that the governor has said a lot of things when she was about to close our high school she made a commitment to forgive the debt of the high school and she had never done it and also they feel that the mayor has failed to them because he never told them or told us that the water was contaminated, or talking about three years ago he never mentioned it in the governor knew it.

She had to know it if she didn't know she should have known that there is a problem because she received all the tests and a matter of fact the community water and my team to come in and help them get samples because they cannot go door-to-door.

>> a follow-up.

>> what do you need need in practical terms for the governor to do differently at this point?

If she had a week where she could make a series of decisions and make a difference in the lives of people in Benton Harbor, what with the decisions look like?

>> here's a major decision, I believe right now that you should be pounding the ground, removing the pipes and now, and don't tell us that we still need more money that you cannot find.

What she needs to do is write the check.

If she came to Benton Harbor she did not come with a checkbook.

The lieutenant governor came and he did not come with a checkbook you have to come at a checkbook to write this problem because right now it's on you.

This water is contaminated.

>> V referenced earlier the three years at this problem has been on your radar and certainly you have been on the ground trying to raise the alarm about this but why do you think it took so long for state officials to really key in on this issue that has been affecting your community for so long?

>> it is the petition that we filed with the DPAA.

That got the ball rolling.

She got the heads up from someone.

She got a heads up from someone that she made the statement that she would provide $20 million for the city of Benton Harbor and somebody in our group lead to that information and the petitioners not us because the water for four days we were in that room debating and arguing and trying to get the right language together to turn it over with my other group of petitioners we were working together and they were finalizing what we had said.

If we had not filed it would have been three to four more years in the black city of Benton Harbor with nothing being done because you cannot trust or depend upon that mayor and whatever you do you cannot trust them.

What we have to deal, we have to force their hand and that is what we did with the petition.

>> that is incredible.

Why do you think that the state did not take notice when you were trying to get attention at the state level?

Ideally you should have to go to the Federal government to get the kind of attention that you're getting now?

>> absolutely.

A lot of times what they do when it is a majority black city when the officials don't care than they don't care.

The mayor didn't set the alarm he didn't stand up to say we had a problem, he never mentioned that the water was contaminated for three hole years.

He had the evidence to support it right in front of him.

It's a main problem.

If they don't do anything in the mayor doesn't do anything then it could have been going on forever if we didn't file this petition.

>> if you watch the director Lisa Clark testimony yesterday, what do you make of her response on her department's argument that it was not the petition that spurred them into action?

Do you think they're trying to protect themselves from political fallout?

What did you make of it?

>> I thought she was being deceiving pic they got a heads up and they made a statement on the eighth because someone leaked the information to them.

Without the petition they would have done exactly nothing.

They would have done nothing.

And that is why the.

The question should have been how come you haven't done anything in three years.

And now the petition is heads up on the petition which is why you're moving.

>> how often, and when did you raise alarms with this administration I believe there is a video out there of you talking about this in 2019, how often have you brought up these concerns to the administration over the last three years?

>> after the samples were completed in 2019, we immediately, even Michael O'Malley was terminated and they took his license from him because he was sounding the alarm.

This is something they don't want people to know.

They try to make it like he was a terrible person but he is the one who was telling them, he told the mayor and he told the city, he told them and kept telling them because they have been wanting to fire him but they said the water was contaminated with lead you have to do something and they came out and they were looking for any reason to fire that man is they fired him because he was sounding the alarm.

He is a whistleblower.

>> reverent, with regard to your charge of the administration did nothing, they laid out a litany of timeline of what they were doing doing almost from the get-go starting with filters going in and starting with the discussion about putting something in the water to get rid of the lead so they have been doing something.

Some of that they admitted they did not work but it's not exactly like they were sitting in Lansing watching it unfold is that a fair statement?

>> let's say this, the Benton Harbor community water that passed and -- that bought water filters and pass them out the communities they got wind of what we were doing so that's what they brought the filters out because I didn't look good that a very poor community organization who does not get grant money -- they could trap us.

We raised money and bought water filters than educated them on how to use them and also how to put them on.

Then they decided to go out only because we went out and passed out water filters.

After doing that we don't know whether they actually work to take the lead out of the water that -- it was such a high amount of lead so we did not know if it would be able to filter that amount of lead out of the water so that's why we want to the Federal government to come in and do a study.

That's not their thinking that's our thinking they're taking credit for something they did not do.

>> the mayor said at the beginning he asked for more money from the administration after they sent $285,000 acknowledging that there was a problem did he not say that sir?

>> he did not tell the people that the water was contaminated.

You may have asked for more money I can say yes or no on that but by me being part of this I have never heard him say or tell the people that the water was unsafe and that the water was contaminated.

He may have asked I cannot deny that.

It's a possibility because I don't know it but he did not tell the people that he was asking for money because the water was unsafe.

He never said that to the people.

>> Mr. Henderson.

>> let's go back in time, Benton Harbor has had a lot of trouble financially over long period of time and was under emergency management from 2010 until 2016 and that was supposed to make representation better in Benton Harbor it was supposed to make services better in Benton Harbor and so talk about why five years later we are still dealing with significant drawbacks when it comes to government being responsive and responsible to the people in your city?

>> I look at it like governmental failure because they did not take it seriously and they didn't take it seriously until he filed a petition on September the ninth.

All were just years of it will go away, that was the mentality that I was receiving from the city that the lead would somehow disappear.

The first year, O'Malley was hollering and screaming because we were and they didn't care they didn't even make an announcement in the newspaper the mayor didn't even make a statement the second year the same thing in the third year we decided we would zoom into action because it would not wait on them.

If a governmental failure not only was Witmer but also with the mayor of Benton Harbor.

He cared less.

He only cared about a photo app -- photo up with the Lieutenant governor.

He doesn't care anything about the people.

>> what do you hope happened to the next week?

Quick action.

What you want to happen in the next week?

>> I want to see the governor start going door-to-door passing a bottled water.

I don't want to see any long lines.

Remember Benton Harbor is a very very small city it's only four square miles.

My team went door-to-door to every home in Benton Harbor this last week, every door received some water because we were there.

That is what I want to see the governor jail.

She needs to get out here and be more personal to community.

>> should the children in Benton Harbor be tested for the lead in their blood?

>> absolutely no doubt.

That should be done immediately.

>> it's good to have you on the program and next week come back right here you can get more off record.

Why wouldn't you do it.

We will see you then.

>> for more off the record visit WK AR .

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