>>> Welcome back.

Our guest this week from the executive committee of the association of local public health officials, Linda vail, talking about you know what, Covid.

The lead story, the Rs and Ds going bang on forth on election laws, we have Zoe Clark and John OLSTEEN sitting with us as we get the inside out "off the record."

>>> Production is made possible in part by the following, business leaders for Michigan has a strategic plan to make Michigan a top ten state in the nation for jobs, personal income, and a healthy economy.

Learn more at Michigansroadtotopten.com.

>>> Now this edition of "off the record" with Tim.

>> Welcome back.

We appreciate it when you join us as we have a lot of stuff on the news agenda and good correspondents and great guest to talk to us later on.

We have rick and Zoe and JohnATHAN.

The governor.

No moss is going to grow on that veto pen, do we all agree on that?

It's right here, folks.

This is what she's talking about now to use that pen on.

>> Today, and that we can agree that voter integrity is, indeed, a worthwhile cause.

>> This is disgusting and despicable.

>> Emotions running high as 20 republicans voted yes, and 16 Democrats voted no on another bill connected to voter identification.

This Democrat told the Senate, the republican legislation comes out of the notion that the last presidential election was stolen, the alleged big lie.

Mr. HerTEL says, not true.

>> The only reason that we are trying to change this is because of false big lie that the election did not have integrity.

These laws don't add integrity to our election.

They make it harder for people to be a part of it.

>> This republican Senator counters his committee issued a report on former President Trump's assertion that the election was stolen.

While the Senator did not use the term "big lie," he did say the president was wrong.

Yet, there's the need for some changes.

>> The Senate committee on oversight adopted a report that specifically says those things are not true.

It was not flawless.

It was not perfect.

There were problems.

There are causes for reforms.

>> I'm telling you right now, those bills come to the desk, and they will get vetoed.

>> the governor lectured the republicans on what they should be doing rather than passing proposals that are headed for her veto pen.

>> Our elections work.

You don't like the outcome?

Well, then you run in the next election, and you try to win, and earn people's votes.

>> The back and forth of all of this is not going to end soon.

So, JohnATHAN, who is right in the debate?

Is that folly to suggest that question?

>> Well, I think, you know, you saw that both sides are admitting, for the most part, that there were not actually major problems with Michigan's 2020 election, as President Trump continues to claim.

However, you know, the republicans, even who issued that report, certainly know that a lot of their base voters still believe that, and so, certainly, for republicans, even if they don't believe the election was stolen, there is a motivation to try and bolster confidence in this system to make sure their voters don't sit out in 2022 or 2024.

So, you know, there's certainly a motivation there regardless of this question over the big lie.

That said, a lot of stuff we're talking about, voter ID, tightening voter ID rules as proposed in the Senate package, are things republicans have been talking about for many, many years.

I mean, the republican-led legislature has tried this in past sessions as well.

The difference being this year is that maybe they have this motivation from their base of voters who are clambering for some sort of change, and, of course, there's going to be a petition drive that seeks to circumvent the veto from governor WHITMER.

The issue will not die even with the governor's veto pen.

>> Ms. Clark, what's your take on all of this back and forth?

>> Well, it's really become a litmus test, right?

Both in LANsing, the state, and throughout the country.

I don't think we would have years ago believed that Ed Mcbroom, staunch republican, from the U.P., would be voting in the republican party or condemned by an election report that said, you know, the election was held in integrity, and I think it just goes to show how big this narrative has been woven into the democratic process, as JohnATHAN said, though, some of the bills are ideas that republicans have been talked about for a long time, but you did have democratic Senators saying, simply, on the floor yesterday, and then on Wednesday before the little CURFUFFEL, that, you know, this is just poor sportsmanship.

You lost the election.

As we have seen, it is dividing a nation right now across the country.

>> One of the initiatives -- narratives, rick, is the voters spoke to the issue of, quote, voting reform, and sent a loud and clear message, and now comes the bad guys, the republicans, trying to undo it, of course, denying the charge, but this back and forth is not going to stop.

>> No.

This is, I think that Zoe and JohnATHAN are both right.

This continues for a long while.

Here's the question.

Are the reforms the republicans are talking about, both the previous guests accurately pointed out, some of the narratives we've heard for a long time from republicans, are they or are they not things that the republicans really believe in?

Are these ideas that they think are good ideas, or are they doing this simply because there is a need to reach out to the base?

And that's a judgment that I can't make, but the question is, are they doing these things because they want to suggest that the 2020 elections were not legitimate?

I mean, here we are towards, what, just a little over a year from the next major election, and if we don't have an ability to have confidence in that election process, that spells big trouble for all of us, and so I think we have to decide where we are on this, but we're going to have plenty of time to hear it because this conversation's going to continue, Tim.

>> yeah.

Basically, I think the legislative process here is kind of mute because the petition drive is ultimately, JohnATHAN, where this goes did the governor uses the red pen, and they launch this petition drive, I'm told, this weekend, right?

>> Yes, as we tape today, they are going to launch this evening in livingston County, with a livingston republican party just to show you that the party is definitely involved in the petition drive, fairly directly to the extent that they can.

But, yes, I think the -- what we saw in the Senate this week was they paired down a 39-bill package to essentially three bills that are almost identical to the secure my vote petition that will start circulating today.

They are saying this is the set of reforms we settled on.

We are going to prove it.

The legislature does intend, I believe, to send this to the governor's desk for that veto because the veto is going to energize the voters that they need to sign this petition to get the legislation back to them in a form that the legislature can then adopt and enact without the governor's signature.

For viewers at home who don't know the process, Michigan has a rare constitutional provision allowing the legislature to adopt a petition instead of just sending it to the ballot, and they can do so to get around a veto by the governor and make law with about signatures from about 340,000 Michigan voters opposed to the 5 million-plus that voted in the last presidential election.

>> Speaking of livingston County, rick ALBIN spent a week there this week.

[LAUGHTER] >> Yes, I did.

>> And, you know what I'm saying?

So how's the president doing, rick?

>> Well, first of all, I got to tell you that this was a really interesting place for the president to show up.

First, it's about a 560-acre facility where the operating engineers train people to use all of the heavy equipment that would be used for, guess what, infrastructure.

So the white house had chosen a great backdrop.

You know what it's like covering the president.

We've all done it.

You don't get too close.

In my case, being at the live shot location where we were, I didn't even see the motorcade, but we heard what he had to say, and it was a big push.

The push is for about a $5 trillion dual set of packages in Washington that's already started to be paired down in negotiations.

The president has real hurdles, manchin and sinE, MA being two of them.

I asked the president yesterday, do you think, are you concerned, do you think these things are going to happen, and saying I think there will be an infrastructure package.

I have no idea what's in it.

I don't know what it's going to look like.

I think that's where everybody is right now.

The president has got kind of about two and a half weeks to kind of pull this together to get to the late October votes in the house, and we'll see.

You know, he's going to be making his case all around the country, particularly in those districts where there may be some members of congress that are a little bit on the fence.

>> Zoe, I marvel at the trips, which must cost a couple of bucks, okay, to fly the guy into Howell, Michigan and fly the president out, do we have any evidence that this stuff works?

>> Well, look, I mean, going back to rick's point and the backdrop, I mean, what we saw is a backdrop of words that I cannot repeat on television, right?

And so I think what we found out he was going to be in livingston County, it was sort of, like, wait, what?

You had kids out there holding signs and yelling at the president, which I guess just shows the level of deform that we have found in this country.

Add in 2021, but, yes, this was an expensive trip, but, again, this is what presidents do, right?

On their soap boxes.

They go through these build back better agenda, and it is not the scene we saw up in apple and cherry ORCHARDS in traverse city over the fourth of July weekend, but as we know, Michigan has become an important pathway to the presidency, and he has a friendly governor here and, of course, ALISSA, whose seat right now, before the latest maps are drawn, was there as well.

He needs moderates like representative SLACKEN on his side right now, and it is not shocking he came back to Michigan.

I think it was, you know, this little area within Michigan, though, that had our heads scratching, but, you know, unions are going to be friendly, but, again, you know, Howell, Michigan, livingston County, as said, beginning the petition drive just today, interesting choice, that's for sure.

>> JohnATHAN, quickly, it is clear the governor and president are good personal friends.

Are her election hopes tied in any way to this president, and if the answer to that is "yes," his numbers that we saw this week by one nationwide poll are underwater when it comes to job performance.

He does not hit 50% on Covid, on being commander in chief, on immigration, all of his numbers have gone south.

Is this a problem for the governor?

>> Well, certainly she can't be too happy about the polling numbers.

I mean, of course, a midterm election often end up benefiting the party that is not in the white house, and that's certainly seeming like it could be the case this year.

Of course, we got some interesting dynamics this cycle that we might not have seen before.

The fact that, you know, former President Trump is basically still campaigning.

The fact that some of his biggest supporters who have spread information, misinformation in some cases, about the 2020 election are running for office and could be near the top of the ticket, potentially in Michigan, and so, I mean, I think, you know, Gretchen WHITMER would like 2022 to be a referendum of Donald Trump, even though he's not in office, republicans, of course, have to be very enthusiastic about President Biden's sagging poll numbers because traditionally that would be a very good indicator for them.

>> All right.

Looking at the Covid issue now with Linda vail, and Ms. Vail, there's a lot of people in TV land watching this program who simply do not believe that the vaccine is safe.

I wonder if you could speak to them and explain how the vaccine is safe, at least, that's what you think in your mind.

Are they wrong?

We got a mute thing -- there we go.

>> Sorry about that, like my first time.

>> that's all right.

>> Yeah.

They are wrong.

It is a safe vaccine, and millions of people have gotten this vaccine, and, you know, of course, we see side effects, which we do with many vaccines.

I had my shingles shot.

I got nice side effects from that, but that does not make it a bad vaccine or unsafe vaccine.

The profile is remarkably good, and, really, everything we are hearing out there about this being a not safe vaccine is really a bunch of disinformation that's being just really broadly spread, largely through social media and other sources.

>> Your critics would say if the vaccines are so safe, how come people with the vaccine are getting sick?

>> Oh, well, safety and advocacy are two things.

One, safety, but in terms of efficacy, you know, the vaccine was started with about a 95% efficacy, and as we see variants come, we do see that the efficacy might be dropping a little bit.

What we said about that vaccine from the very beginning and what we know about all vaccines is that they don't prevent all illnesses and infections, but they prevent symptomatic infections, for the most part, hospitalizations, and death.

We are still seeing remarkable effectiveness when it comes to hospitalizations and death, and, yes, we are seeing what have been called "breakthrough cases," which is unfortunate because all vaccines have that basic profile, where they are not 100% effective, and that means there are people, even vaccinated, who come down with an illness that they got a vaccine for.

>> Let's see what Ms. Clark has to ask.

>> So, right now, over the past few weeks, we are seeing the heightest transmission rates of any age group between 10 and 19 years old.

It looks like, though, that possibly, the federal government could okay Pfizer's request to begin vaccinations for 5 to 11-year-olds.

How much do you think, if and when that happens, that will be able to change these transmission rates, or are you not super certain that anything actually can change with this younger group because older adults still are not getting their vaccines?

>> Well, first of all, we are seeing in the 65 and older group, remarkably high vaccination rates, so that's really important because that's where we saw the highest death rates.

We are seeing the signal that the FDA's vaccine product advisory committee has now said they are going to meet on October 26th to review the Pfizer data on the booster for Pfizer for 5 to 11-year-olds so we have the first signal other than rumors there's actually a meeting scheduled to do this.

>> Right.

>> That will be followed by an advisory committee on immunizations practices meeting, and then the approval.

We are hopeful we have a vaccine for 5 to 11-year-olds no later than the 1st of November.

Now, we know kids, in general, tend to get less sick, but then there are long-term consequences, and when an illness affects your taste and smell, we know there's a neurological involvement as well, and so I think we still want to be very cautious about our 5 to 11-year-olds in what might be happening long term.

It is critically important to get them vaccinated, and just like other illnesses, they can be little pea tree dishes and transmitters, so, yes, if we have a large portion of 5 to 11-year-olds vaccinated as well, we are going to impact community transmission rates.

>> Zoe, a follow-up?

>> I was just going to ask, and yet, you know, we're seeing parents who will not even get the vaccines, you know, are your concerns about that this may not actually make a difference now going into the second winter of Covid?

Like, I guess that's what I'd love to know.

Do you think enough vaccines in arms between 5 and 11 can stop some of the highest transmissions between 10 and 19-year-olds that then give it to teachers or, you know, principals will not get vaccinated in schools now that schools are largely open.

>> Right.

So, obviously, when you have lower vaccination rates, you have higher transmission rates.

It depends on what that uptake is, and every bit of incremental increase is going to help some.

Will it completely put the lid on it?

Really depends on how that goes in any different community.

I mean, we have seen with this virus it has pockets versus this kind of widespread, you know, everywhere is the same, and so as we look now, you can see in some of the incidents rates, some of the lower vaccination rates and Counties, this particular peak that we are seeing right now is very much higher in those Counties than in Counties with higher vaccination rates, so, again, as we continue to get more people vaccinated in that 5 to 11-year-old age group, it contributes to the overall immunity in the communities and does nothing but help.

The amount in which people are getting vaccinated or the degree to which people get vaccinated varies, and we do our best to get people vaccinated and convincing them this is the right thing to do because, bottom line, it is the right thing to do, and it is the way to end this pandemic.

Even with breakthrough cases, this vaccine is the best solution we have.

>> Mr. OSTEEN?

>> sure.

Since the state ended its Covid-making mandates months ago now, a lot of the responsibility for managing the response to the pandemic has fallen to people like you, health officers, local government officials, and elected school boards.

Do you think governor whitMER is making the right call by taking a hands-off approach and asking local officials to sort of take over the response to the pandemic?

>> You know, that's a really tough question because, honestly, if you evaluate the situation, there are pros and cons on both sides, and so it is a challenging situation.

I, to some extent, agree that as locals make those decisions, and as I saw my local school boards making those decisions before I issued an order, and I had a number of them that did, I get better cooperation and better compliance with those school districts after they made those decisions on their own, less pushback, those sorts of things.

I think that's what she's looking at is, you know, do we get better compliance if we get more local decision making?

In the end, if we don't get enough local decision making and get cases out of control, too many kids out of school, if we have kids having to go, you know, and close down, and seen in CalHOUN entire buildings close in a high school, if we continue to see that widespread across the state, something's going to have to happen, and I think they are watching that data.

>> What are the consequences, though, that local officials have really taken the brunt of criticism from people who are angry about these orders, you know, Ian County is more liberal than other parts of the state, but have you, you know, faced any backlash here personally or as an organization in the health department?

>> Oh, yeah.

I mean, you know, we -- it's e-mails, it's phone calls, we had a protest in the front of the department, you know, and I've been called a child abuser, and you must hate kids, and any number of things, and, you know, so, you know, most of them are kind of subtle, we'll hold you accountable kinds of things, but, you know, you're correct.

I mean, you know, I have colleagues across the state that are facing just vicious comments that are far more than what we've seen here.

It is really -- we are seeing a lot of health officers and local school boards taking the brunt of this, and that's another important thing to consider as we move on because that is a very unfortunate outcome of that.

Now, as the local face for everything Covid, even when the state issues an order, a lot of that pressure comes here anyway.

>> Mr. ELDON?

>> A question about going forward with vaccinations, particularly the booster shots and for kids.

We know Pfizer may be on track to be approved for young kids.

What do you say to a guy like me, who has an 8-year-old, who I desperately want to protect, but I'm also concerned.

I was happy enough to be vaccinated, but making a decision for my 8-year-old son, it's going to be Pfizer, is that going to be multiple shots again?

Is he going to have to have a booster later on?

What about if I may throw two in at once, what about boosters for the other vaccines that are not Pfizer?

>> So, let me get to the first question, and that is, we do think that the Pfizer vaccine for the 5 to 11-year-olds is still going to be a two dose vaccine, and, again, just like the trials that have gone on so far, it will -- you know, they needed to get this vaccine out quickly, and so we studied this two-dose regime, and then we got to study, you know, longer to see what happens.

Dr. FAUCI will say in this point in time this was probably always a two-dose plus booster vaccine, but we needed the data.

We didn't need to wait for the data to get the vaccine out.

Probably will need two vaccines.

Rick, I have a 7-year-old granddaughter, and I'm ecstatic over the fact she's be able to be vaccinated, and I have a granddaughter about to turn 4, and it is going to be a year or until they get a trial for 6 months to the 5-year-olds for her, and I tell you, what I feel for myself, is I want my 7-year-old granddaughter vaccinated, and that's the same thing I would say to you about your 8-year-old.

As far as boosters for the other vaccines, we got that signal as well yesterday.

The vaccine product advisory committee for the FDA is meeting on October, I believe, the 14th and 15th.

One of the meetings, I forget the order of them, but one of the meetings is for discussion and evaluation of the Moderna booster, and the other one is Johnson & Johnson booster, and this meeting should subsequently end up in the boosters approved by the end of the month.

>> Follow-up, rick?

>> Yeah.

The only thing that I would ask, and I know this is a question that you and probably nobody else could answer, but is there anything that -- and I assume it's government at this point that has to try to approach this -- that you can do to change the minds of people who have said, we're not going to get this vaccine, because, obviously, the goal was to get to something like herd immunity.

That's hard to do when you got a large segment of the population that just says "no."

>> You know, I think we have had diminishing returns on that very thing.

The ability to convince people absolutely silently convinced they are not going to get the vaccine to get it, and, you know, we still have some people out there that are just waiting for some reason or finally getting vaccinated and things like that, but really, the largest percentage of people out there not getting vaccinated are really pretty stuck, and it is hard to move them.

I think where we are going to move some of those people is where we are seeing this going, which is requirements at employers, so employer requirements.

You have seen the president say he'd like to see employers with more than 100 employees require or mandate vaccine.

That's going through the OSHA process right now.

In clinical settings, that will happen.

That's tied to medicaid funding.

A lot of clinical settings including my department, people have to get vaccinated, and the other thing to move people is this idea that there are certain things you can and can't do if you are not vaccinated.

Flying somewhere, going to restaurants, there are cities that have done that, and I think that's where the movement is going to come.

>> Ms. Vail, a ten second response, are we going to learn to live with Covid because it's not going away.

>> Covid will be endemic.

>> Here to stay.

>> We're going to learn to live with Covid, but it's a matter of what level of it are we living with it, enough people vaccinate, we do this well, it will be a seasonal thing that will come and go, and it will be around just like H1N1 is around.

It won't be devastating.

>> Thank you very much, good luck on your endeavors, thank you to the panel, and see you next week.

>> Announcer: production was made possible in part by the following, business leaders for Michigan has a strategic plan to make Michigan a top ten state in the nation for jobs, personal income, and a healthy economy.

Learn more at Michigansroadtotopten.com.

For more "off the record" visit WKAR.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of "off the record" with Tim SKUBIC.

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