>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM OUR STUDIO AT THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY, AMERICAN WORKERS HAVE SEEN SOME BIG WINS RECENTLY WITH A STRONG LABOR MARKET AND MORE LEVERAGE WITH EMPLOYERS FOLLOWING THE GREAT RESIGNATION.

BUT AS INFLATION RAGES, AND CORPORATIONS BATTLE BACK FOR POWER WHERE THEY CAN, WILL THESE CHANGES LAST?

OBAMA'S HEAD OF THE LABOR DEPARTMENT'S WAGE AND HOUR DIVISION, BUT NOT BIDEN'S, WE'LL EXPLAIN THAT WHY, DAVID WEIL JOINS ME.

THEN, WHAT WILL PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FEDERAL PARDON FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION DO ACROSS THE NATION AND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS?

AND WHAT MORE IS NEEDED TO RIGHT THE MANY WRONGS OF THE RACIST WAR ON DRUGS?

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS CANNABIS COMMISSIONER SHALEEN TITLE JOINS ME, ALONG WITH ONE WOMAN WHOSE POSSESSION CONVICTION FOLLOWED HER FOR YEARS.

>> Braude: THE PAST FEW YEARS HAVE BEEN A ROLLER-COASTER FOR WORKERS ACROSS THE U.S.

IN JUST ABOUT EVERY INDUSTRY.

SO WHERE ARE WE NOW, AND WHERE ARE WE HEADED?

WE'VE GONE FROM PANDEMIC-INDUCED JOB INSECURITY, LOSSES FOR SOME, AND DANGEROUS CONDITIONS FOR OTHERS, TO THE GREAT RESIGNATION LEADING TO LEVERAGE FOR BETTER CONDITIONS, HIGHER PAY, AND UNIONS, IN MANY COMPANIES, INCLUDING SUCCESSFUL EFFORTS AT AN AMAZON AND MANY STARBUCKS LOCATIONS.

AND NOW, MAJOR CHANGES COULD BE AHEAD FOR THE GIG ECONOMY IF THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR HAS ITS WAY.

I'M JOINED BY ECONOMIST DAVID WEIL, FORMER DEAN OF THE HELLER SCHOOL FOR SOCIAL POLICY AND MANAGEMENT AT BRANDEIS, AND ADMINISTRATOR OF THE WAGE AND HOUR DIVISION AT THE LABOR DEPARTMENT FOR NEARLY THREE YEARS UNDER OBAMA.

HE WAS TAPPED BY BIDEN FOR THE SAME JOB, BUT WAS VOTED DOWN IN MARCH WHEN DEMOCRATIC SENATORS JOE MANCHIN, KYRSTEN SINEMA, AND ARIZONA'S MARK KELLY JOINED REPUBLICANS IN OPPOSITION.

DAVID, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO MY ASSESSMENT, WHEN I LOOK AT ALL THE REPUBLICANS VOTING, SINEMA, KELLY AND MANCHIN, IS THAT YOU HAD THIS RADICAL POSITION THAT EXISTING LAWS, EVEN IF C.E.O.

'S DIDN'T LIKE THEM, SHOULD BE ENFORCED.

IT SEEMED TO BE THAT SIMPLE TO ME, WAS IT?

>> YEAH, I STHI IT DID ULTIMATELY COME DOWN TO THAT.

I MEAN THERE WERE CERTAINLY SOME OF THE HYPERBOLE FROM MY OPPONENTS ABOUT ME REWRITING THE LAW OR REGULATIONS, IMPLIED THAT I WAS GOING TO GO BEYOND THE LAW, BUT I THINK THE REALITY IS THAT PEOPLE NEW, YOU KNOW, I KNEW WHERE THE ONSWITCHES WERE IN THE DEPARTMENT AND THAT WE WOULD ENFORCE THE LAW AS WE DID IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

>> ONE OF THOSE SWITCHES RELATED TO OVERTIME FOR WORKERS THAT I KNOW SOME OF YOUR OPPONENTS DIDN'T LIKE.

WHAT EXACTLY YOU HAD DONE THAT HAD INCURRED THEIR WATT?

>> WELL, WHAT WE DID WAS IN RESPONSE TO PRESIDENT OBAMA IS THAT WE NEEDED TO BASICALLY MAKE SURE THAT THE OVERTIME RULES COVERED THE PEOPLE THAT IT WAS INTENDED TO.

AND OVER TIME AND PARTICULARLY BECAUSE OF SOME CHANGES HAD HAPPENED IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, OVER TIME PROJECTIONS ERODED.

AND SO BY THE TIME WE WERE LOOKING AT REVISING THEM AND UPDATING THEM, ONLY 7 PERCENT OF SALARIED WORKERS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE STILL COVERED, PROTECTED BY THE OVERTIME.

OVERTIME POLICIES.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF WORKERS WHO HAD HISTORICALLY BEEN ELIGIBLE FOR OVERTIME NO LONGER WERE ELIGIBLE.

AND SO WE DID A DEEP DIVE AS YOU HAVE TO DO, WITH A REGULATORY CHANGE, IN LOOKING AT HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE BACK TO THE KINDS OF COVERAGE THAT CONGRESS ENVISIONED US TO HAVE, AND TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE WHO WORK LONG HOURS RECEIVED OVERTIME.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DID.

WE MADE IT THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS AND I THINK WE CAME TO A VERY REASONABLE BOTH STANDARD ABOUT HOW WE DETERMINED WHO WAS ELIGIBLE, AND THEN MADE SURE THAT IT CONTINUED TO UPDATE OVER TIME, IN BOTH OF THOSE THINGS, AGAIN, LEAD TO A FAIR AMOUNT OF OPPOSITION FROM THE EMPLOYERS.

>> Braude: AND ANOTHER SIN YOU APPARENTLY COMMITTED WAS TAKING SIDES IN THE ARE GIG WORKERS EMPLOYEES OR INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS.

YOU KNOW THERE WAS WHAT, A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR WAR ON THE BALLOT OVER THAT IN CALIFORNIA, WE ALMOST HAD A VERY EXPENSIVE BALLOT WAR HERE BUT ULTIMATELY THE QUESTION WAS KNOCKED OFF THE BALLOT.

AGAIN, YOUR POSITION THERE WAS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE EMPLOYEES WHERE THEY HAVE FAR GREATER SPECTRUM OF PROTECTION RATHER THAN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS WHICH THE UBERS, LYFTS ET AL., WANT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE CHEAPER AND HAVE FAR FEWER PROTECTIONS, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT, THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT IN FACT, WHAT WE WERE DOING WITH THAT WAS REALLY GOING TO THE BASIC QUESTION OF WHO SHOULD BE PROTECT BID OUR LAWS, NOT JUST GIG WORKERS BUT GENERALLY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE SEEN OVER TIME IS MORE AND MORE WORKERS ARE BEING MISCLASSIFIED AS INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS.

NOT JUST THE LYFT AND THE UBER DRIVERS, BUT EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING HOME CARE.

PEOPLE WHO ARE ON CONSTRUCTION SITES.

PEOPLE YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT OUR ECONOMY, JUST BECAME ESSENTIALLY A WAY TO GET OUT OF MINIMUM WAGE, GET OUT OF OVERTIME REQUIREMENTS, AND ALSO SLIP OUT OF THINGS LIKE WORKER COMP COVERAGE, UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, EVEN PROTECTIONS AGAINST SEXUAL HARASSMENT FALL APART IF YOU ARE CALLED AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR.

SO WHILE YOU KNOW, THE LIGHTNING ROD AND CERTAINLY SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY CAME AFTER ME WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN NOMINATED ME FOCUSED ON THIS GIG WORK, WHAT WE WERE DOING WAS ONCE AGAIN JUST SAYING HEY, THIS IS THE LAW, THIS IS THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT, ONE OF OUR MOST FUNDAMENTAL SET OF WORKER PROTECTIONS THAT WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE DOES THE WORK THAT CONGRESS ORIGINALLY INTENDED IT TO DO.

>> YOU KNOW DAVID, I ASSUME ST A COINCIDENCE BUT MAYBE IT ISN'T.

THE LABOR DEPARTMENT UNDER MARTY WALSH TODAY TOOK A POSITION ON THIS GIG WORKER SITUATION, VERY CLOSE TO WHERE YOU ARE.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT NOT A FORMAL REGULATION, SO IT MAY HAVE LESS IMPACT BUT IT ESSENTIALLY ATTEMPTS TO DO WHAT YOU BELIEVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALL ALONG, NO?

>> NO, I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.

AND I'M STILL STUDYING IT.

IT IS 180 PAGES.

AND YOU KNOW, AS THESE THINGS ALWAYS ARE.

BUT I THINK IT DOES A COUPLE OF REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PUT OUT ITS OWN RULE AND YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT, IT'S WHAT IS CALLED AN INTERPRETIVE RULE.

IT GIVES GUIDANCE BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THE OVERTIME RULE, IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT STRENGTH.

BUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REALLY PULLED OUT JUST TWO OF THE KINDS OF CRITERIA THAT CONGRESS INTENDED THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR TO USE, TO DECIDE WHO IS AND WHO ISN'T AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR.

SO WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RULED TODAY, THE PROPOSED RULE, FIRST OF ALL, ROLLS THAT BARK AND THEN SAYS WELL, WHAT SHOULD BE THE CRITERIA.

AND IN MY VIEW, WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS BASICALLY GO BACK TO THE BASIC LAW.

AND THEY GO BACK TO WHAT COURTS HAVE SAID AND THEY SAY YOU KNOW, IT'S BASED ON THE, WHAT IS CALLED THE ECONOMIC REALITIES OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE WORKER AND THE PERSON WHO IS GAINING FROM THEIR WORK, WHICH IN MANY, MANY CASES IS AN EMPLOYER, UNDER OUR LAW.

AND I THINK WHAT THIS PROPOSED RULE DOES IS GET US BACK TO THAT LEGAL STANDARD THAT IS DEFINED BY THE LAW.

AND ALLOWS PEOPLE TO HAVE THE PROTECTIONS THAT AGAIN CONGRESS MEANT THEM TO HAVE GOING WAY BACK TO 1938.

>> YOU KNOW DAVID, I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE PEOPLE WITH THE WRONG IMPRESSION, THE WAR ON DAVID WEIL HAS NOT BEEN THE ONLY ATTACK ON WAGE AND OUR PROTECTIONS.

I READ SOMETHING THAT SAID ABOUT THE CAPACITY OF THAT DIVISION YOU HEADED UNDER OBAMA, TO PURSUE VIOLATIONS.

80 YEARS AGO AS COMPARED TO TODAY, COULD YOU MAKE THAT COMPARISON FOR US IF YOU WOULD?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW T IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS FACING WAGE AND HOUR GENERALLY AND THAT IS THE RESOURCES TO GET THE INVESTIGATORS OUT THERE TO DO THE WORK OF ENFORCEMENT.

AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF INVESTIGATORS THAT WERE PRESENT IN THE FIELD AT THE TIME THAT PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT PASSED THE ORIGINAL FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT RELATIVE TO THE NUMBER OF WORKPLACES, IT WAS SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF 54 TIMES THE NUMBER WE CURRENTLY HAVE.

THERE ARE CURRENTLY LESS THAN 800 INVESTIGATORS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR HAS AVAILABLE TO DO THAT WORK.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR CONGRESS TO GET IT TOGETHER TO APPROPRIATE THE MONEY IT NEEDS TO DO THE KIND OF ENFORCEMENT THAT OUR LAWS CALL OUT FOR.

WE FOUGHT FOR THAT IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND I KNOW IT HAS BEEN THE SAME KIND OF FIGHT DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>> Braude: COULD WE TALK ABOUT THIS SHOW'S FAVORITE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR JOE MANCHIN.

HE VOTED FOR YOU IN 2014 WHEN YOU WERE NOMINATED BY BARACK OBAMA.

WHAT CHANGED IN BETWEEN?

IS.

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT CHANGED WAS THERE WAS A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR CAMPAIGN WAGED AGAINST ME, REALLY FROM TWO SOURCES.

ONE WAS THE INTERNATIONAL FRANCHISE ASSOCIATION WHO OPPOSED ME THE FIRST TIME, THE TIME THAT SENATOR MANCHIN DID VOTE IN FAVOR OF MY NOMINATION.

THEY CAME OUT AGAINST, SWINGING THIS TIME.

AND THEN HE HAD THE PLATFORM COMPANIES WHO WERE ALSO POURING A LOT OF MONEY INTO TRYING TO SOFTEN THOSE THREE SENATORS ON SUPPORTING ME.

YOU KNOW, AND MISCHARACTERIZING MY POSITION.

I CAN TELL YOU WITHOUT GOING TOO MUCH INTO THE INSIDE BASEBALL, I ACTUALLY MET ABOUT SENATOR MANCHIN ON TWO OCCASIONS.

IT WAS CERTAINLY MY IMPRESSION AFTER THE SECOND MEETING WE HAD, THE NIGHT OF MY CONFIRMATION I REALLY ASSUMED THAT I WOULD BE, I WAS BACK IN-- PACKING MY BAG AND READY TO GO.

SENATOR CINEMA WAS ACTUALLY THE FIRST TO FLIP HER VOTE AND VOTE AGAINST ME.

AND SENATOR KELLY QUICKLY FOLLOWED AND THEN SENATOR MANCHIN, ALSO DECIDED HE WASN'T GOING TO FOLLOW, I GUESS ON THAT STORY, AND ALSO ON MY NOMINATION.

>> Braude: IS THERE A MORAL TO THE STORY APART FROM THE FACT THAT TO THOSE 53 SENATORS, BUSINESS CONTRIBUTIONS MATTER MORE THAN PROTECTING THE RIGHTS OF AMERICAN WORKERS, OR IS THAT IT?

>> WELL, I-- YOU KNOW, I THINK, I MEAN THIS IS, I GUESS, AN AGE-OLD STORY OF VERY POWERFUL ECONOMIC INTEREST, FIGHTING AGAINST WORKER PROTECTIONS.

AND YOU KNOW, THIS WAS THE 2020 VERSION OF THAT, OR 2021 VERSION OF THAT.

AND I THINK WHAT IS ALWAYS A STRUGGLE IS TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND JUST HOW RIGHT THAT MANY PEOPLE ASSUME WE HAVE AT WORK.

LIKE THE BASIC RIGHT TO BE PAID FOR THE WORK YOU DO, ARE JEOPARDIZED IN JUST FAR TOO MANY SITUATIONS.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE OFTEN SAID, I HAVE STUDIED THIS AS AN ACADEMIC FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, BUT ONCE I WAS IN THE POSITION IN THE OBAMA ADMINSTRATION, I MEAN I SAW JAW-DROPPING VIOLATIONS OF THE MOST BASIC STANDARDS, THINGS WE ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED.

BUT SADLY ARE NOT THE CASE.

THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS PUSHING AGAINST THAT, WHETHER ST THE PLATFORM COMPANIES OR OTHER POWERFUL COMPANIES WHO USE A LOT OF DIFFERENT METHODS TO GET OUT OF THEIR LEGAL OBLIGATIONS.

THAT IS STILL UNFORTUNATELY VERY MUCH THE STORY.

AND IT IS THE UPHILL BATTLE THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO TELL ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE PROTECTIONS AND POT WE AREFUL INTERESTS THAT PUSH AGAINST IT.

>> YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF POWERFUL INTERESTS, BEFORE YOU GO.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE WATCHING THE PUBLIC APPROVAL OF LABOR UNIONS IN COUNTRIES IS AS HIGH AS IT HAS BEEN IN ROUGHLY 50 YEARS, CLOSE TO SEVEN.

IN TEN I THINK THE PLACES THAT MOST PEOPLE IDENTIFY IS OBVIOUSLY THE AMAZON WAREHOUSE IN NEW YORK AND THE DOZENS OF STAR BUCKS LOCATIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY INCLUDING QUITE A FEW HERE.

HERE IS THE LEAD ANTIUNION SPOKESPERSON WHO ALSO HAPPENS TO BE THE HEADS OF THE COMPANY, HOWARD SCHULTZ EARLIER THIS YEAR ON THE EFFORT TO UNIONIZE HIS WORKERS.

HERE HE IS.

>> MY FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN THE FUTURE OF STAR BUCKS IS BASED ON MY FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN YOU.

NOT SOME OUTSIDE FORCE THAT'S GOING TO DICTATE OR DISRUPT WHAT WE ARE.

>> YOU KNOW, DAVID, IN THE LAST MINUTE WE HAVE, CAN STAR BUCKS SERVE AS THE MODEL FOR ORGANIZING OUTSIDE THE BARISTA WORLD OR IS THERE WORKPLACE TOO SMALL AND TOO ABERRATIONAL TO BE MODELED FOR OTHER ORGANIZING.

>> NO, I THINK THEY CAN BE A MODEL.

AND I THINK THEY CAN BE A MODEL WITH A NUMBER OF RESPECTS.

YOU KNOW, IT TAKES A LOT OF BRAVERY TO COME OUT AND SUPPORT A UNION IN THE ENVIRONMENT WE HAVE.

IT TAKES BRAVERY BASICALLY TO ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS TO GET A MINIMUM WAGE, LET ALONE GET A UNION.

AND WHAT I FIND REMARKABLE ABOUT THE STAR BUCKS WORKERS, AND I HAD A CHANCE TO MEET WITH SEVERAL OF THEIR ORGANIZERS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO S HOW THEY REALLY BUILT THIS FROM THE GROUND UP.

AND THEY BUILD IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE FACED A WHOLE RANGE OF PROBLEMS AT THE WORKPLACE FOR A LONG TIME.

AND WERE QUITE FRANKLY FED UP ABOUT IT.

AND THEY BUILT A UNION SOME WHAT IN THE WAY THAT UNIONS USED TO BE BUILT, REALLY FROM THE GROUND UP, FROM THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE.

A LOT OF PASSION, A LOT OF CREATIVITY AND A LOT OF BRAVERY.

AND I THINK THEY'VE BEEN VERY STRATEGIC IN HOW THEY HAVE PLAYED OUT THE CAMPAIGN, HOW THEY ARE PREPARING ULTIMATELY TO BARGAIN.

AND IT RESONATES.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I GREW UP IN A SMALL TOWN IN NORTH EASTERN COLORADO, A VERY RED PART OF COLORADO.

I FOUND OUT LAST WEEK THE STAR BUCKS WORKERS IN GREELY, COLORADO, VOTED 20-1 FOR A UNION.

TAND IS REMARKABLE.

AND I THINK I THINK IT IS THAT KIND OF GRASSROOTS WILLINGNESS TO DO THIS, FUELED BY MANY, MANY YEARS OF STAGNATING WAGES AND THIS TREATMENT THAT I FEEL FAIRLY OPTIMISTIC WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE OF, WITHIN WHAT IS STILL A VERY DIFFICULT, DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT TO ORGANIZE.

>> I HOPE ARE YOU RIGHT, AND BY THE WAY, I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR YOU HAD I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY.

DAVID WEIL, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME AND WORK, I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

NEXT UP, WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER PARDONING ALL PRIOR FEDERAL OFFENSES OF SIMPLE MARIJUANA POSSESSION, A MAJOR MOMENT FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT STILL TREATS MARIJUANA LIKE HEROIN AND L.S.D., AS SO-CALLED SCHEDULE ONE DRUGS.

BUT IT HAD NO FORMAL IMPACT IN THE STATES, WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONVICTIONS WERE OBTAINED.

SO JUST WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHERE POSSESSION OF UP TO AN OUNCE OF CANNABIS HAS BEEN LEGAL SINCE 2016?

AND HOW FAR WILL GO TOWARD ADDRESSING RACIAL DISPARITIES, WITH BLACK PEOPLE FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE ARRESTED FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION IN THIS STATE.

I'M JOINED BY CHERYLE KELLEY, WHO WAS CONVICTED OF MARIJUANA POSSESSION WHEN SHE WAS A TEENAGER AND STRUGGLED TO FIND AND SHALEEN TITLE CO-WROTE THE 2016 RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA BALLOT QUESTION, INCLUDING LEADING THE EQUITY-RELATED SECTIONS, BEFORE SERVING ON THE CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION.

SHE'S NOW CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE CANNABIS POLICY THINK TANK PARABOLA CENTER.

SHALEEN, CHERYLE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I START WITH YOU, WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANTS OF PRESIDENT BIED EPP'S PROCLAMATION?

>> WELL, IT IS USUALLY HUGELY SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE SET FIRST PRESIDENT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE NEED TO START REPAIRING THE HARM OF THE DRUG WAR.

IN TERMINGS OF THE CONCRETE IMPACT IT IS SOME WHAT SMALL T ONLY APPLIES TO FEDERAL POSSESSION CHARGES SWI ABOUT 6,500 PEOPLE.

SO A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE RELATIVE BUT IT WILL MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIVES.

AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL LEAD TO MORE PARDONS AT THE STATE LEVEL, AND PARDONS FOR BROADER MARIJUANA RELATED OFFENSES AS WELL.

>> AND HE DID URGE ALL GOVERNORS TO EMULATE, TO TAKE THE SAME POSITION HE DID ON STATE CONVICTIONS AND ONE CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR NAMELY MAURA HALEY HERE SAID SHE WOULD.

BUT ONE MORE THING FOR YOU SHALEEN, I KNOW 6500 ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL PLUS WHATEVER NUMBER IN D.C..

THE VAST MAJORITY OF ARRESTS AND CONVICTIONS FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION, THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER ARE IN THE STATE, CORRECT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

THE BIGGEST IMPACT WOULD BE IF MAURA HALEY WAS TO BECOME GOVERNOR AND DO THIS AT THE STATE LEVEL AND ALSO IF THIS WAS EXPANDED AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL TO APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD SOLD CANNABIS WHICH IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT IS RACIALLY DISPROPORTIONATE IN THE WAY IT IS ENFORCED.

SO THOSE COULD BE POTENTIAL NEXT STEPS CHERYLE, HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED FOR MARIJUANA POSSESSION.

>> I WAS 15 YEARS OLD.

>> Braude: AND WHAT IMPACT DID THAT HAVE ON YOUR LIFE IN THE INTERVENING YEARS, THAT ARREST.

>> IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO GET JOBS.

THEY ALWAYS WANTED TO DO A DRUG TEST.

ALSO HOUSING, YOU KNOW, THEY ALWAYS, THEY WANT TO DO A BACKGROUND CHECK.

SO I WAS ALWAYS-- .

>> Braude: I KNOW THIS IS SPECULATIVE BUT IF A GOVERNOR OF THIS STATE 20 YEARS AGO WHEN YOU WERE JUST COMING OUT OF YOUR TEENS HAD DONE WHAT JOE BIDEN DID THE OTHER DAY BUT DID IT ON THE STATE LEVEL, HAVE YOU THOUGHT IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO ABOUT HOW YOUR LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT?

>> YES, I MEAN YOU KNOW, I WOULDN'T HAVE NEVER WENT THROUGH WHAT I WENT THROUGH.

THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT EASIER AS FAR AS GETTING JOBS.

I WOULD NEVER HAD A RECORD.

I WOULD HAVE NEVER HAD ANY ISSUE, EVEN WITH HOUSING IS.

>> Braude: SO.

>> THINGS LIKE THAT, BEING A SINGLE MOM, FACING THOSE WERE VERY HARD ON ME.

>> Braude: SHALEEN, ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS, MY UNDERSTANDING, ONE OF THE THINGS JOE BIDEN DID NOT DO, EVEN AS A CANDIDATE HE PROMISED HE WOULD FIGHT FOR DECRIMINALIZATION.

I DON'T BELIEVE HE EMBRACED THAT IN THE STATEMENT THE OTHER DAY.

BUT HE DID EMBRACE SOME EXAMINATION OF THIS ABSURDITY THAT I MENTIONED BEFORE, THAT UNDER FEDERAL RULE, SCHEDULE ONE DRUGS INCLUDE HAIR WYNN, LSD AND MARIJUANA.

HE WANTS THAT-- HEROIN AND MARIJUANA, HE WANTS THAT RELOOKED AT.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

I THINK HE APPROACHED THAT IN JUST THE RIGHT ORDER.

BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO SHERYL-- CHERYLE DOESN'T HAPPEN TO ANYONE ELSE, WE STOP ARRESTING PEOPLE AND PEOPLE LIKE CHERYLE AREN'T FACING THESE BARRIERS THAT SHE MENTIONED, THAT SHUBD THE HIGHEST PRIORITY.

AS FAR AS EXAMINING DESCHEDULING.

THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

I THINK IF WE DESCHEDULE WITH NO COHERENT PLAN, THAT COULD PUT UP TO 90% OF THE BUSINESSES IN MASSACHUSETTS OUT OF BUSINESS.

IT WOULD BE TAKEN OVER BY AMAZON AND BIG TOBACCO, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO I AM GLAD THAT THAT IS DG SOMETHING THAT IS BEING APPROACHED IN A SLOW METHODICAL WAY.

>> CAN YOU A EXPLAIN THAT.

WHY WOULD IT ALLOW THE BIGGEST OF THE BIG BOYS TO GET INVOLVED IF THERES WAX DESCHEDULING OR WHATEVER YOU DESCRIBED A MINUTE AGO?

>> YES, BECAUSE AMAZON AND BIG TOBACCO HAVE ENDORSED LEGALIZATION PROPOSALS.

BUT THEY HAVEN'T ENTERED THE INDUSTRY YET BECAUSE IT'S STILL FEDERALLY ILLEGAL.

>> Braude: I SEE.

>> SO IF WE WERE TO DECRIMINALIZE OR DESCHEDULE MAR BANA MEANING MAKE IT LEGAL AT A FEDERAL LEVEL, THEY WOULD HAVE TO REENTER THE INDUSTRY.

>> CAN THAT BE DRAFTED, ACCOUNT DESCHEDULING IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN BE DRAFTED IN SUCH A WAY TO KEEP THEM OUT OF TOTALLY CONTROLLING THE INDUSTRY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: LIKE JEFF BEZOS CONTROLS EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE COULD DO AND WE SHOULD DO.

>> AND WE SHOULD MENTION 70% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SUPPORT LEGALIZATION, JUST TO PUT IN CONTEXT.

SHEREL-- SHERELE BACK TO YOU, YOU HAD YOUR RECORD EXPLUNGED, WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN.

>> THAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR, I GOT THAT EXPUNGED THROUGH THE MASS CULTIVATED PROGRAM THAT I AM GRATEFUL TO BE A FELLOW OF.

>> AND WHAT EFFECT HAS THE EXPUNGMENT OF YOUR RECORD ON MARIJUANA POSSESSION, WHAT HAS THAT, WHAT DOORS HAS THAT OPENED TO YOU.

>> THAT OPENED UP A LOT OF DOORS FOR ME.

IT OPENED UP, I WAS ABLE TO WORK IN CULTIVATION, RETAIL, WORKING WITH HANDS ON WITH THE CANNABIS.

>> Braude: AND MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU WERE A BENEFICIARY, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, SHERYLE, SOCIAL EQUITY PROVISION IN THE LAW WHICH I BELIEVE WAS AUTHORIZED BY SHALEEN'S TITLE S THAT RIGHT?

YOU ARE A SOCIAL EQUITY.

>> YES, THANK YOU SHALEEN FOR THAT, MI A SOCIAL EQUITY APPLICANT.

THAT OPENED UP A LOT OF DOORS AND IN THE FUTURE CAN I HAVE A LICENSE TO HAVE RETAIL, DELIVERY ON MY OWN CULTS VACATION SITE.

>> Braude: THAT'S TRECIAL.

SHALEEN, BACK TO YOU FOR A SECOND.

WHEN CHARLIE BAKER WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS WHAT JOE BIDEN HAD DONE THE OTHER DAY HE SAID HE'S COMFORTABLE, I'M NOT PUTTING WORDS IN HIS MOUTH BUT THE GUEST OF IT IS WITH THE CURRENT LAW, I THINK PAST 2018 WHICH SHERELE BENEFITED FROM WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL CAN APPLY FOR EXPUNGMENT, I GUESS, OF THEIR RECORD.

AND MY UNDERSTANDING ONLY 20% OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE APPLIED HAVE ACTUALLY HAD IT GRANTED WHICH IS TROUBLING.

AND I DON'T FLOW WHAT PERCENTAGE HAVE NOT A PLIERED TO BEGIN WITH.

WE ASKED MAURA HEALEY TODAY WHAT HER POSITION WAS, INCLUDING WHAT THE PROCESS WOULD BE.

SHE BASICALLY REPEATED WHAT SHE SAID LAST WEEK.

AS GOVERNOR I MOVE TO PARDON STATE CONVICTION FORCE SIMPLE MARIJUANA POSSESSION MODELED BY THE STEPS TODAY BY PRESIDENT BIDEN AM WHILE SHE DIDN'T SAY EXPLICITLY WHERE THE EXHUNGMENT FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD OR THE PARDON WOULD BE AUTOMATIC, OBVIOUSLY HAVING IT ACROSS-THE-BOARD AS OPPOSED TO ASKING PEOPLE TO APPLY FOR IT GUARANTEES THAT IT AFFECTEDS A FAR BROADER PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE, OBVIOUSLY, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

WITHOUT A DOUBT.

THAT WOULD BE AN IMPROVEMENT OVER WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ALSO, THERE IS ALSO RAISE EQUITY PART OF THIS.

I MENTIONED, BUT LET ME PUT NUMBERS UP ACCORDING TO THE CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FROM 2020.

MARIJUANA POSSESSION ARREST RATES IN MASSACHUSETTS PER 100,000 PEOPLE.

OVERALL POPULATION, FOUR AND A HALF OUT OF 100,000.

AS YOU SEE WHITE POPULATION, 3.7, AND BLACK POPULATION ROUGHLY THREE AND A HALF TO FOUR TIMES AS MUCH.

AND THE POINT THEY MAKE, I SHOULD BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS, FOR THE SAME NUMBER OF OFFENSES, WHETHER YOU ARE WHITE, BLACK, LAT IPO.

THAT SORT OF THING.

SO OBVIOUSLY THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT RACIAL INEQUITY AGAIN SHALEEN IS THEY BLANKEN, PARDON OR EXHUNGMENT RATHER THAN INDIVIDUALS HAVING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO APPLY AND THEN POSSIBLY GETTING IT GRANTED, CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

AND WE DEPENDED ON THAT STUDY WHEN WE CREATED THE SOCIAL EQUITY PROGRAM AND IT IS SO GREAT TO HEAR CHERYLE THAT THAT WAS HELPFUL TO YOU, EVEN THOUGH NOTHING WILL KEEP UP WITH THE HARM COMMITTED.

I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP DOING THOSE STUDIES NOT JUST FOR POSSESSION BUT FOR SALES AS WELL BECAUSE DID REALLY DOES AFFECT PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND WE NOW HAVE CORPORATIONS THAT ARE MAKING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

SO NO ONE SHOULD BE FACING PUNITIVE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT.

>> Braude: CHERYLE I SHOULD HAVE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION AT THE TOP THAT I ASKED SHALEEN, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO FORMAL IMPACT OF PEOPLE WITH A STATE RECORD, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAD TO SAY THE OTHER DAY.

>> I WAS HAPPY ABOUT IT, IT OPENS A LOT OF DOORS, IT MIGHT OPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF.

>> Braude: AND IT IS A MINDSET CHANGE.

IT DOES CRACK MINDS OPEN FOR PEOPLE.

>> YES, CUZ IT USED TO BE FROWNED UPON SO I DON'T HAVE ANYONE REALLY LIKE LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER, OH YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT.

I WISH YOU GOOD LUCK IN YOUR BUSINESS, SHERYL, BEFORE YOU G SHALLIPE, IF WERE YOU ADVISING JOE BIDEN, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP YOU WOULD TAKE IN THIS EFFORT TO GET TO EITHER DECRIMINALIZATION OR OUTRIGHT LEGALIZATION ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL, WHAT SHOULD YOU BE DOING NEXT.

>> I WOULD MAKE SURE TO CREATE A COHERENT PLAN TO TRANSITION FOR NATIONAL LEGALIZATION.

I WOULD EXTEND THE PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD SOLD CANNABIS.

I WOULD CALL ON CONGRESS TO SEND ME A BILL TO LEGALIZE.

AND THEN I WOULD APOLOGIZE FOR MY ROLE IN THE DRUG WAR IF I WAS PRESIDENT BIDEN.

>> YEAH, HE HAD SOME IMPACT ON THAT IN THE 19 THE 0S WHEN HE WAS A SENATOR.

SHALEEN TITLE, CHERYLE KELLEY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TONIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

A LOOK AT KEN BURN'S NEW, SEARING DOCUMENTARY ON HOW THE U.S.

RESPONDED TO THE HOLOCAUST, AND THE TROUBLING PARALLELS HE'S SEEING TODAY.

PLUS, WHAT ATLANTIC PUFFINS CAN TELL US ABOUT THE GLOBAL CLIMATE CRISIS.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> WAIT, DID I JUST COMMIT A CRIME?

HEY, FOLKS!

I'M EDGAR B. HERWICK III FROM GBH'S "CURIOSITY DESK," WHERE YOU ASK QUESTIONS AND I FIND ANSWERS.

TODAY'S QUESTION COMES COURTESY OF BETTY DAVIS FROM GLOUCESTER, MASSACHUSETTS, WHO WANTS TO KNOW, IS IT IN FACT A CRIME TO REMOVE THESE LABELS?

NOW YOU FIND THESE GUYS ON PILLOWS, MATTRESSES, EVEN A LOT OF WINTER COATS.

AND THE REASON WHY IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT SEE WHAT IS INSIDE OF THOSE ITEMS.

NOW TODAY, PILLOWS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE USUALLY STUFFED WITH FEATHERS OR COTTON OR SOME KIND OF SYNTHETIC MATERIAL.

BUT, ACCORDING TO MAGGIE TERRY, BACK IN THE DAY THEY PUT SOME PRETTY GNARLY STUFF IN THE STUFFING.

>> I MEAN, IT USED TO BE YEARS AGO, THEY'D THROW ANYTHING THEY WANTED TO INTO THE BEDDING.

NEWSPAPERS, DIRTY RAGS-- >> HORSE HAIR, USED HOSPITAL OR HOTEL MATTRESSES, CORN HUSKS-- >> SWEEPINGS OFF THE FLOOR, PART OF YOUR LUNCHES, DROPPINGS.

I MEAN, ANYTHING.

>> FOR STARTERS, THAT'S DISGUSTING.

AND FURTHERMORE, IT'S DANGEROUS AND UNHEALTHY.

SO TODAY, A LOT OF STATES REQUIRE THESE LABELS THAT TELL YOU WHAT IS INSIDE OF THE ITEM.

AND IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE THEM.

SORT OF.

RETAILERS AND MANUFACTURERS CAN BE FINED IF THEY REMOVE THE LABELS, BUT ONCE YOU BUY IT, OR I BUY IT, IF YOU READ CLOSELY MOST OF THESE END WITH THE LINE, "EXCEPT BY THE CONSUMER."

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT.

FEEL FREE TO RIP AWAY.

DON'T FORGET TO FOLLOW AND TELL US WHAT YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT BECAUSE, HEY, I MIGHT JUST LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDGAR B. HERWICK III, STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.