>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE BOSTON POLICE SERGEANT CAUGHT ON CAMERA BRAGGING ABOUT HITTING BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTORS WITH HIS CAR IS GETTING A SHORT SUSPENSION, BEFORE HEADING BACK TO WORK, AFTER AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION.

THE ATTORNEY WHO FIRST GOT AHOLD OF THE FOOTAGE JOINS ME ON WHY HE THINKS THAT'S NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH.

THEN, LATER, WITH MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ELIGIBLE FOR THE VACCINES STILL REFUSING TO GET THE SHOT, MANY IN THE MILITARY AND HOSPITALS CHIEF AMONG THEM, STATE REP/E.R.

DOCTOR/ARMY RESERVES CAPTAIN JON SANTIAGO AND B.U.

PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND EPIDEMIOLOGY BENJAMIN LINAS JOIN ME ON HOW MANDATES ARE WORKING AND HOW TO CONVINCE THOSE WHO ARE STILL SAYING NO TO CHANGE THEIR MIND.

PLUS, HOW THE PANDEMIC CONVINCED ONE WOMAN TO WALK AWAY FROM HER JOB AS A CLINICAL SOCIAL WORK TO FIND MEANING IN A NEW CAREER.

THE LATEST INSTALLMENT IN OUR GBH NEWS SERIES "THE BIG QUIT."

♪♪ >> Braude: WHEN THOUSANDS TOOK TO THE STREETS IN DOZENS OF CITIES AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER, DEMANDING AN END TO POLICE VIOLENCE AND SYSTEMIC RACISM, MANY IN LAW ENFORCEMENT WERE QUICK TO VILIFY DEMONSTRATORS AND BLAME THEM FOR VIOLENT CLASHES WITH OFFICERS.

BUT HERE IN BOSTON, ONE OFFICER NOT ONLY ADMITTED THAT HE INSTIGATED VIOLENCE, HE BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

THAT IS UNTIL HE REALIZED A BODY CAMERA WAS RECORDING IT ALL.

>> THEN I HAD A (bleep) KEEP COMING.

I'M (bleep) RUNNING, I'M (bleep) HITTING PEOPLE WITH THE CAR.

DID YOU HEAR ME?

I WAS, LIKE, GET THE (bleep)... >> WHAT HAPPENED?

>> THIS THING IS ON.

THIS THING IS... >> OH, NO, NO, NO, I KNOW.

BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS, THOUGH, THEY WERE JUST LIKE -- I DIDN'T HIT ANYBODY.

I WAS, LIKE, JUST DRIVING.

>> Braude: THAT WAS BOSTON POLICE SERGEANT CLIFTON McHALE IN FOOTAGE OBTAINED BY AN ATTORNEY REPRESENTING SOME OF THE PROTESTORS ARRESTED THAT NIGHT.

AND WHEN THE VIDEO WAS PUBLISHED BY ONLINE NEWS OUTLET "THE APPEAL" MONTHS LATER, McHALE WAS PUT ON LEAVE, PENDING THE RESULTS OF AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION.

OF NOTE: THIS WAS NOT HIS FIRST SINCE JOINING THE DEPARTMENT 24 YEARS AGO.

"THE BOSTON GLOBE" REPORTS THAT McHALE WAS ALSO INVESTIGATED IN 2005, AND ULTIMATELY GIVEN A ONE-YEAR, UNPAID SUSPENSION AFTER HE ADMITTED HE HAD "INAPPROPRIATE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH A HIGHLY INTOXICATED WOMAN" WHILE ON DUTY NEAR FANIEUL HALL.

THIS FROM THE SAME FORCE THAT KEPT ON ONE-TIME UNION PRESIDENT PATRICK ROSE, DESPITE AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION THAT FOUND HE LIKELY COMMITTED A CRIME WHEN HE WAS ACCUSED OF SEXUAL ASSAULT ON A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY AND IS NOW ACCUSED OF MOLESTING FIVE OTHER KIDS, WITH ANOTHER FORMER UNION HEAD, THOMAS NEE, WHO RECENTLY AGREED TO PLEAD GUILTY TO CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT THEFT AND EMBEZZLEMENT IN AN OVERTIME SCAM, AND WHICH ELEVATED DENNIS WHITE, WHO WAS ONLY FIRED AFTER HE BECAME COMMISSIONER AND IT CAME TO LIGHT THAT HE'D BEEN ACCUSED OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

AS FOR THIS INVESTIGATION INTO McHALE, THE FINDINGS OF WHICH WERE RELEASED ON FRIDAY, INTERNAL AFFAIRS DECLARED HIS STATEMENT WAS "UNBECOMING OF AN OFFICER," BUT THEY ALSO CONCLUDED HE DID NOT ACTUALLY HIT ANYONE WITH HIS CAR, AS HE SAID HE DID.

SO IN THE END, HE GOT AN UNPAID, 10-DAY SUSPENSION, ONLY EIGHT OF WHICH HE'LL ACTUALLY HAVE TO SERVE PROVIDED HE DOESN'T GET INTO ANYMORE TROUBLE IN THE NEXT SIX MONTHS.

AND WHILE EXTERNAL INVESTIGATIONS COULD STILL BE LAUNCHED INTO THE CASE, INCLUDING BY THE FLEDGLING OFFICE OF POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPORTATION, MANY ARE WONDERING HOW McHALE IS POSSIBLY STILL ON THE FORCE.

THAT INCLUDES MY NEXT GUEST, THE ATTORNEY WHO FIRST OBTAINED THE BODY CAM FOOTAGE, CARLTON WILLIAMS.

HE'S A CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND ADJUNCT PROFESSOR OF LAW AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY.

WE INVITED ACTING POLICE COMMISSIONER GREGORY LONG AS WELL BUT WERE TOLD HE WAS UNAVAILABLE.

>> Braude: CARL, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THE EIGHT-DAY, UNPAID LEAVE AND REINSTATEMENT FOR McHALE?

>> I WILL SAY AT THE SAME TIME, NOT SURPRISED BUT DOESDISAPPOINTED.

WE WERE HOPING FOR TRANSPARENCY, AND IT SEEMS LIKE MORE OF THE SAME.

>> Braude: THEY CONCLUDED, AS I SAID -- WHILE THEY DID SAY HIS CONDUCT WAS UNBECOMING OF A POLICE OFFICER, I WOULD SAY THAT IS A BIT OF AN UNDERSTATEMENT, THEY CONCLUDED HE DID NOT HIT ANYONE WITH HIS CAR.

AND I ASSUME WHEN THEY SAY HE WAS DRIVING CAUTIOUSLY, I ASSUME WE'RE SUPPOSED TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT IT WASN'T BECAUSE HE MISSED HITTING SOMEBODY, BUT THAT HE WASN'T TRYING.

HOW DID YOU READ THOSE CONCLUSIONS?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT REPORT IS PADDING, CREATING A SITUATION THAT IS NICE FOR THE BOSTON POLICE BRASS, NOR DO I CARE BECAUSE EITHER HE HIT PEOPLE AND HE TRIED TO HIT PEOPLE, THAT'S (A), OR (B) HE WAS LYING ON CAMERA.

HE WAS JUST TALKING TO SUBORDINATE POLICE OFFICERS ON CAMERA AND SAYING THINGS THAT WERE LIES.

I REMEMBER SOME POLICE COMMISSIONERS SAID WE WILL NOT SUBBORN LYING.

IF POLICE OFFICERS ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE LYING TO THE PUBLIC AND OTHER OFFICERS, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING WE'LL ACCEPT.

HE IS CERTAINLY DOING ONE OF THOSE THINGS, RIGHT?

HE SAID A THING THAT IS NOT TRUE.

IT IS A REALLY WEIRD THING TO SAY, BUT EITHER WAY, IF SOMEONE WAS A FIREFIGHTER OR SOMEONE WAS E.M.S.

OR SOMEONE WAS A NURSE OR DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A JUDGE, MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE EVEN THE APPEARANCE OF PROPRIETY.

IFA FIREFIGHTER SAID, WELL, I SET 10 HOUSES ON FIRE LAST NIGHT, HA, HA, HA, ISN'T THAT REALLY FUNNY?

AND THEY SAID HE DIDN'T SET ANY ON FIRE, I WOULD SAY THAT IS A PROBLEMATIC PERSON.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE SHOULD BE PAYING THEM $150,000 OF CITY MONEY.

>> Braude: CAN I DRAW THE CONCLUSION YOU THINK HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TERMINATED OR FIRED FOR WHAT HE DID?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD NOT HAVE POLICE ON THE FORCE THAT BEHAVE THE WAY THIS OFFICER DID.

>> Braude: HOW RELEVANT ARE THE PRIOR BEHAVIORS OF HIS?

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS -- I WAS ABOUT TO CALL THEM MINOR, BUT MINOR BY COMPARISON.

A WEAPON HE TOOK HOME -- PARDON ME, HE DID NOT TAKE IT HOME, IT WAS NOT PROPERLY SAFEGUARDED, AND HE TOOK A POLICE CAR HOME WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION.

THE DEPARTMENT CONCLUDED HE INAPPROPRIATELY HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH A HIGHLY INTOXICATED WOMAN.

I SHOULD SAY IF I DID THAT, AND I HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR PROTECTING ANYBODY, I WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IN A NANO SECOND.

HE GOT A ONE-YEAR SUSPENSION, REINSTATED IN THE FORCE, AND THEN PROMOTED TO SERGEANTS.

HOW RELEVANT IS THAT BEHAVIOR 16 YEARS AFTER THE FACT?

>> IF YOU DID THAT, I WOULD BE REPRESENTING YOU IN COURT.

AND I WOULD BE HAPPY TO DO THAT.

EVERYBODY WHO READ THAT GOES, WHILE THAT IS A LOT OF WORDS TO NOT SAY ONE WORD.

THERE IS A WORD FOR HAVING INAPPROPRIATE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A HIGHLY INTOXICATED PERSON.

RIGHT?

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT IS RAPE, RIGHT?

I HAVE REPRESENTED PEOPLE CHARGED WITH THAT.

IF A PERSON CANNOT CONSENT TO SEXUAL CONTACT, SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, THAT IS RAPE.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF THAT, BUT IT IS RAPE.

AND WE'RE JUMPING THROUGH AND DOING BACK FLIPS AND JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS, AND I UNDERSTAND THE GLOBE IS DOING THAT, BUT WHY IS THAT HAPPENING TO PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT AND NOT FOR OTHER PEOPLE?

IT SEEMS TO BE SPECIAL PROTECTION.

>> Braude: YOU MAY NOT KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS, BUT YOU CAN GIVE ME YOUR SENSE, AND IT MAY ALSO BE A NAIVE QUESTION: WHY WOULD THE POLICE DEPARTMENT PROTECT SOMEBODY LIKE THIS?

THE IMPLICATION IN SOME OF THE GLOBE REPORTING IS HE HAS A LONG LINE OF,, I BELIEVE -- IBELIEVE HIS FATHER WAS IN THE DEPARTMENT.

WHY WOULDN'T THEY WANT TO SHED SOMEBODY WHO HAS THIS KIND OF RECORD ON THE JOB?

>> I THINK THAT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY.

I THINK THERE ARE THREE FACTORS, AND I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONES OR HOW ALL OF THESE MIX TOGETHER.

HE SEEMS TO HAVE FAMILIA CONNECTIONS TO A LOT OF FOLKS IN POWER ACROSS THE CITY AND IN THE STATE GOVERNMENT, ALSO.

AND I THINK THERE IS NOT TARNISHING THE BRASS IN GENERAL.

YOU SEE THIS WITH POLICE WHO ARE PULLED OVER FOR DRUNK DRIVING, OR WHO ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE COMMITTED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

I THINK THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WOULD RATHER KEEP IT SO-CALLED INTERNAL, NOT AIRING THEIR DIRTY LAUNDRY.

AND I THINK THE POWER OF THE POLICEMEN'S ASSOCIATION -- THE POLICE ASSOCIATIONS THAT PROTECT THESE SITUATIONS AND THESE OFFICERS AND THEE SUPERIOR OFFICERS -- I THINK THE COMBINATION OF THOSE THREE THINGS SHIELD OFFICERS FROM ACCOUNTABILITY DEEPLY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU'VE MENTIONED THE WORD TRANSPARENCY BEFORE, AND IT BOTHERS ME ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE UNDERLYING BEHAVIOR.

YOU REMEMBER A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND THIS IS ACTUALLY ON THE MAYOR TO A DEGREE.

THE ACTING MAYOR REDACTED 80% OF THE INVESTIGATION REPORT INTO THE SITUATION WITH PATRICK ROSE, WHO WAS CREDIBLY ACCUSED OF BEING A SERIAL CHILD MOLESTER, SAYING SHE WAS ATTEMPTING TO PROTECT THE SURVIVORS, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT MER MERITS REDACTION OF 80% OF THE REPORT.

AND THE ONLY REASON WE FOUND OUT WHAT THE DISCIPLINE WAS IN THIS McHALE CASE IS BECAUSE THERE WAS SUCH AN UPROAR WHEN THE INVESTIGATION CONCLUSION WAS RELEASED BY THE ACTING MAYOR, BY THE TWO CANDIDATES FOR MAYOR IN THE FUTURE.

TRANSPARENCY IS NOT THEIR MIDDLE NAME.

I ASSUME THIS IS NOT JUST THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> PEOPLE FREQUENTLY ASK ME WHICH IS THE BEST POLICE DEPARTMENT AND WHICH IS THE WORST?

I THINK THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION WE WANT TO ANSWER.

ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY AND OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY, EVEN, PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY.

POLICE ARE IN PRISONS AND JAILS, ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SHERIFF'S SUBORDINATES AND OTHER FOLKS IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM.

I THINK FOR TOO LONG, BECAUSE WE HAVE POOR, BLACK, BROWN, IMMIGRANT FOLKS THAT ARE INS CARS INCARCERATED, AND PEOPLE SAY IT IS GOOD, WE DON'T CARE, WE ACTUALLY WOULD PREFER THAT TO BE A HARSH SITUATION, A VIOLENT SITUATION, AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT CREATES MORE VIOLENCE IN OUR SOCIETY.

IF EVERY TIME SOMEONE SPOKE OUT OF TURN IN CLASS IN A HIGH SCHOOL, IF A TEACHER SMACKED THEM IN THE FACE OR LOCKED THEM IN A CLOSET, THAT IS GOING TO BE A VIOLENT SCHOOL.

IF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING US DON'T PROTECT US AND ARE VIOLATING THE LAW -- AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT NIGHT -- I WAS THERE THAT NIGHT, FROM THAT AFTERNOON AND MORNING AND NIGHT AT THE PROTESTS.

AND SEEING WHAT I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES, AND SEEING WHAT WE SAW ON THE BODY CAMERAS LATER, THERE WERE POLICE WHO TOOK MERCHANDISE FROM STORES AND GAVE IT TO OTHER OFFICERS.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO BRUTALIZED PEOPLE, AND PEOPLE WHO USED CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON PEACEFUL PROTESTORS.

THERE WERE MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO SAID THE POLICE DON'T CARE FOR US.

WE WERE PROTESTING FOR POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY AND THEY TAIKD ATTACKED US.

>> Braude: IS THIS THE END OF THE STORY, SHOULD THE OFFICE OR THE D.A.

RACHEL ROLLINS, SHOULD THEY BE LOOKING AT THE SITUATION?

>> WE HAVE AN OUTGOING DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AND AN OUTGOING MAYOR, AND A LOT OF TIMES IT IS DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE -- I CAN'T GET IN A FIGHT WITH THOSE PEOPLE.

IT IS THE PERFECT TIME TO DO THIS.

IT IS THE PERFECT -- MAYOR JANEY JUST, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, DECLARED INDIGENOUS PEOPLE'S DAY.

I THINK THAT WAS A GREAT, INCREDIBLE STANCE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER BRAVE, INCREDIBLE THINGS THAT MAYOR JANEY CAN DO, AND I HOPE SHE WILL AND I BELIEVE SHE WILL, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY CAN -- SHE CAN DO ON HER WAY UP AND OUT.

>> Braude: CARL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK ON YOUR TIME TONIGHT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IN RESPONSE TO WIDESPREAD SCHOOL STAFF SHORTAGES, COUPLED WITH HIGH DEMAND FOR COVID TESTING, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER ACTIVATED 200 MEMBERS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS NATIONAL GUARD TODAY TO HELP FILL IN THE GAPS.

HE ALSO ACTIVATED ANOTHER 250 GUARD MEMBERS TO STEP IN IF STATE PRISON STAFF WALK OFF THE JOB OVER VACCINE MANDATES, AS THEY'VE THREATENED TO DO AHEAD OF THE DEADLINE THIS COMING SUNDAY.

OF COURSE THOSE STATE MANDATES COME A FEW WEEKS BEFORE MILITARY MANDATES GO INTO EFFECT.

AND THE NUMBER OF TROOPS WHO HAVE YET TO COMPLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE STILL IN THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, ACCORDING TO PENTAGON DATA PUBLISHED BY THE "WASHINGTON POST."

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO ANTI-VAX THREATS AGAINST MANDATES, WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN TOO MUCH FOLLOW-THROUGH SO FAR, DESPITE THE MASS STATE POLICE UNION CLAIMING DOZENS OF TROOPERS WERE PLANNING TO QUIT.

STATE POLICE OFFICIALS SAY THEY'RE ONLY AWARE OF ONE SUCH TROOPER.

AND AS "THE BOSTON GLOBE" REPORTS, HOSPITALS ACROSS THE STATE ARE PLANNING TO FIRE HUNDREDS OF EMPLOYEES WHO DEFY MANDATES IN THEIR INDUSTRY, TOO, ALTHOUGH THEY'RE HOPING TO CONVINCE AS MANY WORKERS TO GET THE SHOT AS POSSIBLE BEFORE THE NOVEMBER 1st DEADLINE.

AND AS FOR THOSE STILL ON THE FENCE WITHOUT MANDATES THAT MAY SWAY THEM, THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES HAS DECIDED TO STOP PLAYING SO NICE WITH ITS AD CAMPAIGN.

>> I'VE BEEN IN THE HOSPITAL FOR 76 DAYS NOW.

I DIED THREE TIMES.

THEY GAVE ME A FIVE PERCENT CHANCE OF LIVING.

>> PEOPLE ARE YOUNGER AND SICKER, AND WE'RE INTUBATING AND LOSING PEOPLE THAT ARE MY AGE AND YOUNGER.

>> I WENT FROM BEING A MAN WHO LOVED TO PLAY OUTSIDE WITH HIS CHILDREN AND EXERCISE TO A MAN WHO BARELY HAS ENOUGH ENERGY TO MAKE IT THROUGH THE DAY.

WHATEVER THE SIDE EFFECTS OF THE VACCINE MAY BE, I CAN PROMISE YOU THEY'RE NOT WORSE THAN THIS.

>> Braude: IT'S A MARKEDLY DIFFERENT TONE THAN THE UPBEAT ENCOURAGEMENT THEY WERE PUTTING OUT BEFORE, BUT WILL ANY OF THIS BE ENOUGH TO GET THE NEARLY 35% OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE FOR SHOTS BUT HAVEN'T GOT A SINGLE DOSE TO COMPLY?

I'M JOINED BY BENJAMIN LINAS, A PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOLS OF MEDICINE AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND STATE REPRESENTATIVE JON SANTIAGO, WHO'S ALSO AN EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER, A CAPTAIN IN THE ARMY RESERVES, AND A FORMER CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR OF BOSTON.

>> Braude: DOCTORS, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU FOR BEING MERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: DR. SANTIAGO, CAN WE START WITH YOU AND DO YOUR MILITARY CONNECTION FIRST?

AS AN OUTSIDER, DISCIPLINE, FOLLOWING ORDERS IS WHAT I THOUGHT HAPPENS IN THE MILITARY.

AND WHILE WE READ THAT 90% OF SERVICE MEMBERS IN THE NAVY ARE VACCINATED, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER MILITARY MEMBERS ARE NOT.

WHY?

>> Doctor: WELL, MY GUESS, JIM, YOU'LL SEE IN THE COMING WEEKS AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF MILITARY FOLKS VACCINATED.

I THINK THE NUMBER IS 81% FOR THE ARMY.

BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, SOLDIERS FOLLOW ORDERS.

BEFORE I WAS DEPLOYED, I GOT A WHOLE HOST OF VACCINATIONS.

MY GUESS IS YOU'LL SEE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE GET VACCINATED.

AFTER THE MILITARY INTRODUCED THEIR MANDATE IN THE MARINES, YOU SAW A 300% INCREASE IN THE FOLLOWING SIX WEEKS.

SO MY HOPE IS MORE MILITARY MEMBERS WILL GET VACCINATED AS THE DEADLINE APPROACHES.

>> Braude: BUT THE MARINE NUMBERS ARE STILL LOW, EVEN WITH THAT INCREASE.

MY A READING IS IT IS ROUGHLY IN THE 70% RANGE.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THE DEADLINE IS REACHED AND THEY HAVEN'T COMPLIED?

>> THERE IS A WHOLE HOST OF INFRACTIONS THEY CAN USE.

WE HAVE THE BEST SOLDIERS ACROSS THE WORLD, THEY DO FOLLOW ORDERS AND COMMAND, AND MY GUESS IS MOST WILL GET VACCINATED.

>> Braude: DR. LINAS, LET'S MOVE TO THE HEALTH CARE SERVICES.

ON ONE END OF THE SPECTRUM IS KAISER PERMANENTE, SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF A 20% INCREASE SINCE THE MANDATE WENT IN.

THE FLIPSIDE IS I'M WATCHING CNN LAST NIGHT, AND THERE IS A C.E.O.

OF A HOSPITAL IN RURAL, RURAL MISSOURI, AND HE SAID THE MANDATE HURTS THE EFFORT TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED.

IT DRIVES THEM IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

ARE MANDATES THE RIGHT COURSE IN THE HEALTH CARE WORLD?

I CAN'T SEE ANY OTHER WORLD.

IS THERE ONE?

>> Doctor: RIGHT.

I THINK THAT IS THE QUESTION OF THE HOUR.

I AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL WE ARE VACCINATING EVERYONE IN OUR SOCIETY, AND ABSOLUTELY OUR HEALTH CARE WORERS.

IF PEOPLE ARE WISHING TO BE EMPLOYED IN THE HEALTH CARE SETTING, THERE IS AN OBLIGATION TO BE VACCINATED AT THIS POINT.

I THINK VACCINE MANDATES ARE ABSOLUTELY ETHICAL AND APPROPRIATE IN THE HEALTH CARE SETTING.

THE POLICY QUESTION, IS THAT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO, I BELIEVE THAT IS A MUCH TRICKIER QUESTION.

IT IS A LARGE HEALTH CARE WORKFORCE, SO SMALL PERCENTAGES OF UNVACCINATED PEOPLE CAN RESULT ACTUALLY IN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF LAYOFFS.

>> Braude: IF I MAY, DOCTOR, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ETHICAL ISSUE IS.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO TREAT A PATIENT, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE IN THE PROXIMITY OF THE PATIENT -- HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE UNVACCINATED?

>> Doctor: I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU, IN CASE I WAS NOT CLEAR.

I AGREE WITH YOU, THERE IS NO ETHICAL ISSUE.

IF YOU WISH TO WORK IN A HEALTH CARE SETTING, YOU MUST BE VACCINATED.

THAT'S -- YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO WORK IN A HEALTH CARE SETTING.

IF YOU WANT TO BE IN THE HEALTH CARE SETTING, YOU NEED TO BE TAKING CARE OF THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE THERE.

BUT AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, IT CAN BE CHALLENGING.

IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POTENTIAL LAYOFFS, IT IS NOT CLEAR HOW WE'LL REHIRE THOSE PEOPLE?

SO AS A POLICY QUESTION, I THINK IT IS REALLY CHALLENGING RIGHT NOW.

I AGREE WITH YOUR INITIAL TAKE, I DON'T SEE ANY OTHER WAY FORWARD.

I BELIEVE WE NEED TO HAVE THE MANDATES, BUT WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THE FACT IT IS NOT STRAIGHTFORWARD WHAT TO DO WHEN PEOPLE AREN'T VACCINATED BECAUSE YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY REPLACE THE WORKFORCE YOUR LAYING OFF.

>> Braude: DR. SANTIAGO, I KNOW YOU BOTH HAVE A BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER CONNECTION.

HOW ARE WE DOING ON VACCINATIONS AT THE B.M.C.?

>> Doctor: I THINK ON THE WHOLE -- GO AHEAD.

>> >> Doctor: NO, PLEASE.

>> Doctor: OVER ALL, THEY'RE DOING AN INCREDIBLE JOB.

I FINISHED MY SHIFT AT 7:00 A.M., AND I GOT MY BOOSTER, AND MY ARM IS A BIT SORE, BUT THEY CONDUCTED A PROCESS THAT WAS FLUID AND THEY GOT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE VACCINATED DURING THE SURGES AND ALSO WITH THE BOOSTER.

>> Braude: DR. SANTIAGO, AS A NON-MEDICAL PERSON, I WOULD SAY SORE IS BETTER THAN DEAD.

I THINK YOU SHOULD GRIN AND BEAR IT, AS I'M SURE YOU WILL.

I UNDERSTAND, WE SPOKE ON THE RADIO THE OTHER DAY, THE HEAD OF THE U-MASS MEDICAL CENTER AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT I.C.U.

BED SHORTAGES.

THE REALITY IS AS PAINFUL AS THE CONSEQUENCES, MEANING STAFF SHORTAGES, AS WE WERE SAYING A MINUTE AGO, THAT CAN BE FIXED BY THE EMPLOYEE BY GETTING VACCINATED.

IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE ACCEPT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THE SHORTAGE.

ISN'T THAT THE CASE?

>> Doctor: WELL, SURE.

I SUPPOSE THERE IS ANOTHER POTENTIAL, SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO MANDATE VACCINES, AND TRY TO GET THEM VACCINATED WHILE THE'RE STILL IN THE WORKFORCE.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN.

NEW YORK WENT THROUGH THIS ABOUT A MONTH AGO, RIGHT?

THEY WERE LOOKING AT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT WERE GOING TO BE LAID OFF.

AND IT WASN'T TRIVIAL TO SAY THEY WERE GOING TO REPLACE THAT WORKFORCE.

GOING INTO THE WINTER, THERE COULD BE MORE COVID IN THE HOSPITALS, AND AS THE SAME TIME WE'RE LAYING OFF A BIG SECTION OF OUR WORKFORCE, WE'RE GOING TO CREATE A PROBLEM FOR OURSELVES.

IT IS EASY TO POINTER TO THE PROBLEMS.

IT IS A LOT HARDER TO POINT TO THE SOLUTIONS.

>> Doctor: LET ME JUST ADD, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LAYING OFF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO GET VACCINATED, IF YOU'RE ON THE FLOOR OF THE EMERGENCY ROOM OR IN THE HALLS, PEOPLE ARE BURNED OUT.

PSYCHIATRIC PATIENTS NEED SERVICES, AND THAT IS WHAT IS STRIVING PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE PROFESSION, ON THE FRONT LINES.

PEOPLE TALK ABOUT A VACCINATION, BUT PEOPLE ARE LEAVING BECAUSE THEY'RE BURNED OUT.

>> Braude: DR. SANTIAGO, DR. LINAS SAID THE SOLUTIONS ARE MUCH TOUGHER THAN FIGURING OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

DR. FAUCI SAID MANDATES WORK, AND THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE IS THEY DO.

WE PLAYED A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO, SCENES OF PEOPLE IN IMMENSE KIND OF SUFFERING.

SEEING THAT KIND OF SUFFERING, WHETHER YOU'RE A HEALTH CARE WORK OR NOT DOESN'T DO THE TRICK, IF THE THREAT OF LOSING YOUR JOB DOESN'T DO THE TRICK, WHAT WILL WORK?

WHAT WILL CONVINCE THE HESITANT -- AND I'M BEING KIND -- TO BE UNHESITANT.

>> Doctor: YOU HAVE TO SET EXPECTATIONS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO VACCINATE 100% OF THE PEOPLE.

I THINK DR. FAUCI USED THE WORD "ELUSIVE," AND IF WE COULD GET TO 70%, 80%, I THINK WE'D BE IN A GOOD SAFE.

RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT -- OR SAYING I WILL NOT WORK IF I'M MANDATED TO GET VACCINATED.

THAT'S FROM WHAT I'M SEEING AND READING NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

WE KNOW THAT THE STATE HAS MOVED FORWARD WITH A WHOLE HOST OF MANDATES.

MY HOPE IS THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES FOLLOW.

I THINK WITH MANDATES AND MAKING SURE THOSE COMMUNITIES HARDEST HIT BY THE VIRUS THAT ARE LESS LIKELY TO GET VACCINATE -- HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE'VE DONE A HELL OF A JOB WITH RESPECT TO VACCINATIONS, BUT WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

I THINK IT WILL BE A BLOCK OPERATION THAT IS CULTURE CULTURALLY COMPETENT TO GET THOSE FOLKS VACCINATED.

>> Braude: DR. LINAS, YOU SAID THE SOLUTIONS ARE HARD, BUT DESPITE THAT, WHAT IS THE SOLUTION AS BEST YOU CAN FIGURE OUT?

>> Doctor: I THINK THE VACCINE MANDATES ARE WORKING, WE NEED TO HAVE THEM IN PLACE.

BUT THEN WE'LL BE LEFT WITH THIS SETTING WHERE YOU'LL NEVER BE 100%.

AND IT IS SLOW GOING NOW.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING HARD AT THAT.

FEAR IS GENERALLY NOT THE RIGHT APPROACH.

FOLKS THAT AREN'T VACCINATED NOW -- THE REASON THEY ARE NOT GETTING VACCINATED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT IT WILL PREVENT DISEASE.

THERE IS A LOT OF REASONS FOR THEIR RESISTOR TANS RESISTANCE AND HESITANCY, AND WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT.

>> Braude: YOU'RE BOTH KINDER THAN I AM, BUT I'M GLAD YOU'RE BOTH DEALING WITH THE ISSUE.

DR. LINAS AND DR. SANTIAGO, THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: WHILE MANY ARE PINNING THEIR HOPES ON VACCINES BRINGING US ALL A RETURN TO NORMAL, FOR MANY THE PANDEMIC HAS DRAMATICALLY RESHAPED WHAT THEY WANT THAT NORMAL TO LOOK LIKE.

THEY'VE SPENT THE LAST YEAR-PLUS RE-EXAMINING THEIR LIVES AND WHAT THEY WANT TO CHANGE IN A PHENOMENON GBH NEWS IS TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT IN A NEW PROJECT CALLED "THE BIG QUIT: WHY I'M MOVING ON."

>> I DON'T THINK I KNEW WHAT MY FUTURE LOOKED LIKE A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

I CERTAINLY DIDN'T IMAGINE IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE.

I AM A LICENSED INDEPENDENT CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKER.

SO FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS OR SO, I'VE BEEN WORKING IN THE MENTAL HEALTH FIELD, MOSTLY PROVIDING PSYCHOTHERAPY TO INDIVIDUALS AND ALSO COACHING FOR COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO ARE GOING THROUGH DIFFERENT LIFE TRANSITIONS.

THERE'S A VERY HIGH NEED FOR COLLEGE STUDENTS FOR MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT.

AND THAT WAS REALLY HARD DURING THE PANDEMIC BECAUSE A LOT OF OUR STUDENTS WERE SERIOUSLY IMPACTED.

>> THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS FORCING COLLEGE STUDENTS TO ADAPT TO A NEW NORMAL.

>> THREE OUT OF FOUR AMERICANS... >> EVERYTHING INTENSIFIED AND THE JOB, YOU KNOW, GOT HARDER.

I WOULD BE SPENDING ALL OF MY SOCIAL ENERGY AT WORK AND THEN NOT HAVING ENOUGH FOR MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

MY JOB DID SHIFT ALL OF US TO WORKING REMOTELY.

TO SPEND TIME WITH MY LOVED ONES... [LAUGHTER] >> ...REALLY SUITED ME BETTER.

AND SO THAT WAS A TIPPING POINT, WHERE I WAS FEELING LIKE, OH, IT'S GETTING TIME TO RETURN TO THE OFFICE.

AND I FELT SUCH TREPIDATION ABOUT GOING BACK TO THE SAME THING, IT WAS REALLY HARD TO CHANGE AFTER I HAD INVESTED ATTACHMENT TO THIS OTHER CAREER.

AND I WAS KIND OF AT THIS POINT WHERE IT'S LIKE, WHAT OTHER SKILLS DO I HAVE?

WHAT ELSE CAN I DO?

I LEARNED ABOUT THIS OPPORTUNITY THROUGH A FRIEND ABOUT THIS BOOTCAMP CALLED "COAT SQUAD," AND I JUST LOVED IT.

SO THE WEB APP I CREATED FOR BLACK AND NATURAL HAIR CARE.

WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING IS BUILDING WEBSITES FOR LOCAL COMPAIGNS OR KIND OF GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATIONS.

I'M SEEKING A CHANGE OF CAREER, NOT A CHANGE OF HEART.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN BE PROUD OF AND IS USEFUL.

>> Braude: YOU CAN ALSO CONTACT US AT: gbhnews.org/thebigquit TO SHARE YOUR STORY.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

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