>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP >>> AFTER DEADLY STRIKES ON SAUDI'S RIYADH AIRPORT, ARE THE HOUTHIS TIGHTENING THEIR GRIP?

CORRESPONDENT NIC ROBERTSON HAS THE DETAILS.

THEN -- >>> WE SUPPORT THE IDEA OF AN ENERGY CEASE-FIRE AND NOW RUSSIA MUST -- MUST ALSO SHOW THAT IT AGREES.

>> TRUMP CLAIMS UKRAINE AND RUSSIA AGREED TO AN ENERGY CEASE-FIRE, BUT DID PUTIN GET THE MEMO AS MOSCOW CONTINUES ITS ATTACKS ON KYIV.

I ASK UKRAINE'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER TODAY ME TROE ABOUT IT.

>>> PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR THESE TYPES OF THINGS.

>> SHOCK AND SCRUTINY OVER POTENTIAL PLANS TO LIVESTREAM A FIRING SQUAD AND FOLLOWING THE BOTCHED EXCUSE OF DEATH ROW INMATE OF CHRISTA PIKE DEBATES AROUND CAPITAL PUNISHMENT REIGNITE.

I SPEAK TO ANTI-DEATH PENALTY CAMPAIGNER SISTER HELEN HEY JEAN.

HE HAS TURNED 2 YEARS OLD AND IS COMING UP ON A FULL YEAR NOT HAVING SEEN HIS MOTHER.

>> THE BABIES LEFT BEHIND IN AMERICA.

HOW THE TRUMP AGGRESSIVE I.C.E.

ACTIONS HAVE TORN KIDS AWAY FROM THEIR PARENTS.

♪ ♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CHARLES ROSEN BLOOM.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETER SUNDAY AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE "AMANPOUR."

THE GROUP STRUCK SAUDI'S RIYADH AIRPORT ON SATURDAY WHICH KILLED AT LEAST 13 AND INJURED 300 PEOPLE MAKING IT THE COUNTRY'S DEADLIEST ATTACK IN A DECADE.

IT WAS HIT AGAIN THE FOLLOWING DAY AS ANOTHER KEY AIRPORT WAS TARGETED.

RIYADH'S INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT REMAINED SHUT AND SAUDI ARABIA'S ENERGY MINISTER HAS VOWED A, QUOTE, SERIOUS RESPONSE TO THESE RECENT ATTACKS.

THE HOUTHIS INSIST THE STRIKES WERE IN RETALIATION TO SAUDI'S INTENSE AIR CAMPAIGN AGAINST THEIR MILITIA IN YEMEN WITH CHILDREN AND WOMEN AMONG THE CASUALTIES.

SAUDI ARABIA HAS LONG BACKED THE YEMENI GOVERNMENT FORCES IN THEIR FIGHT AGAINST THE HOUTHIS BUT IT IS THE FIRST TIME THE COUNTRY FOUND ITSELF SO VULNERABLE AS THE U.S.

DELIBERATES WHETHER IT SHOULD STEP IN.

ARE WE LOOKING AT FURTHER ESCALATION?

LET'S BRING IN NIC ROBERTSON FOR MORE ON THIS.

SO, NICK, THIS COMES NOW WITH REPORTS OF IRAN POTENTIALLY OFFERING TO BE A MEDIATOR HERE BETWEEN THESE TWO SIDES AND AS MBS IS WEIGHING A RESPONSE HERE.

I WOULD IMAGINE SOME SORT OF RESPONSE WOULD BE NEEDED FROM NOT ONLY HIS PERSPECTIVE AS SOME SORT OF DETERRENCE AND FUTURE DETERRENCE, BUT ALSO QUESTIONING WHETHER THAT INCLUDES GROUND FORCES.

SO WHICH DIRECTION ARE YOU HEARING HE MAY BE INCLINED TO GO?

>> I THINK IN THE VERY SHORT AND IMMEDIATE TERM HE SEEMS TO WANT TO BUILD MORE DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT, WHETHER TAKING IT TO THE U.N.

SECURITY COUNCIL TO BUILD BROADER INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, THE IMAGES FROM THE ATTACK AT THE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT IN RIYADH WERE PRETTY DEVASTATING, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU SEE A LOT OF PILGRIMS ON THEIR WAY TO MECCA BEING CAUGHT UP IN ONE OF THOSE BLASTS.

THAT IS POWERFUL IMAGERY AND IT IS A BIG STATEMENT ABOUT WHAT THE HOUTHIS WOULD CONSIDER POTENTIAL TARGETS, A CIVILIAN AIRPORT.

THEY HIT IT AS WELL IN DEADLY STRIKES ON WEDNESDAY, KILLING ONE PERSON, ON THURSDAY KILLING THREE PEOPLE AS WELL AS OVER THE WEEKEND, BUT THE WAY CROWN PRINCE MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN IS GOING TO WANT TO POSITION HIMSELF OUT OF THIS IS TO PROJECT STABILITY BECAUSE HE NEEDS THAT TO BRING IN THE INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT THAT HE WANTS TO BRING IN.

HE'S GOT A BIG INVESTMENT FORUM COMING UP LATER THIS MONTH, THE DAVOS IN THE DESERT SO-CALLED, AND HE IS GOING TO WANT TO PROJECT STRENGTH.

SEES HIM AS SORT OF THE REGIONAL STRONGMAN, PARTICULARLY WHEN MEASURED AGAINST THE UAE, THE EMIRATES.

SO I CANNOT SIMPLY GO FOR A DIPLOMATIC OFF-RAMP ENTIRELY HERE, BUT IF HE CAN BUILD A COALITION OF SUPPORT AND AN INTERNATIONAL BACKING FOR FURTHER STRIKES AGAINST THE HOUTHIS AND TAKE TERRITORY THERE, THEN THAT'S POTENTIALLY ONE WAY OUT OF IT FOR HIM, AND THEN GO FOR SOME KIND OF DIPLOMATIC AGREEMENT.

BUT IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE AT THE MOMENT.

AS FAR AS GROUND FORCES GO, HE NEEDS A STRONG PARTNER INSIDE OF YEMEN, THE YEMEN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED GOVERNMENT.

HE SUPPORTS THEM.

SAUDI AIRSTRIKES ARE TAKING OUT HOUTHI POSITIONS, SOME 1,800 AIRSTRIKES WE ARE TOLD, MANY HOUTHIS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

BUT IT DOESN'T PUT THE GROUND INSIDE YEMEN IN A SAFE ENOUGH PLACE, LET'S SAY, FOR SAUDI GROUND TROOPS TO ROLL IN ACROSS THE BORDER.

HE IS BUILDING AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION OF SUPPORT FOR THAT TYPE OF MANEUVER, BUT IT HASN'T BEEN DELIVERED YET.

THAT'S BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE GROUND, IF YOU WILL, INSIDE OF YEMEN AND THE SUPPORT HE CAN GET FROM THE YEMENI GOVERNMENT FORCES DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE CONDUCIVE FOR IT.

>> AND IT COMES JUST WEEKS AFTER HE SIGNED TODAY FENCE TREATY WITH PAKISTAN AND TURKEY, AND, AS YOU SAID, WE DON'T SEEM TO SEE PAKISTANI FORCES OR TURKISH FORCES ANYWHERE NEAR ENTERING THIS FRAY.

IT IS A WAR THAT HAS BEEN ONGOING FOR OVER A DECADE NOW BETWEEN THESE TWO PARTIES AT A VERY COSTLY, BOTH IN THE HUMAN TOLL AND FINANCIAL TOLL, EXPENSE.

SOMEWHAT OF A CEASE-FIRE UNTIL NOW, AND SO THEN THE QUESTION TURNS TO WHO ELSE COULD COME TO SUPPORT THE SAUDIS AND MBS, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID OVER THE WEEKEND THAT PERHAPS, PERHAPS THE UNITED STATES WOULD LOOK AT INTERVENING AS WELL.

HOW ARE THEY EXPECTING OR HOW ARE THE SAUDIS HOPING THE UNITED STATES MAY INTERVENE?

>> YEAH, AND THE U.S.

AND THE SAUDIS PARTNERED AGAINST THE HOUTHIS, YOU KNOW, FIVE OR SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AGO, AND THAT RESULTED ULTIMATELY IN THE U.S.

SORT OF BACKING AWAY FROM IT AND PROVIDING JUST INTELLIGENCE AND AIR-TO-AIR REFUELLING, AND THAT IS SORT OF THE POSITION THE U.S.

IS IN NOW, OF 100 INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS ON THE GROUND IN SAUDI PROVIDING SATELLITE INTELLIGENCE DATA AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR THE SAUDIS, THEY WANT MORE DATA.

THEY WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE HOUTHI ROCKET LAUNCHERS ARE, WHERE THE AMMUNITION STORES ARE, THEIR BALLISTIC MISSILES, CRUISE MISSILES, DRONES.

AND AS WE SAW WHEN THE U.S.

WAS IN THAT WAR WITH IRAN EARLIER IN THE YEAR, WITH ISRAEL AS WELL SUPPORTING THE U.S., BOTH TOGETHER, THAT WAS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO TAKE OUT ALL OF THE LAUNCHES AND ALL OF THE MISSILES.

SO EVEN WITH ADDITIONAL U.S.

INTELLIGENCE, ADDITIONAL POTENTIAL U.S.

AIR ASSETS REFUELLING, IT STILL DOESN'T WIN THE WAR AS WE'VE SEEN.

YOU DON'T WIN IT BY AIR CAMPAIGNS, BUT IT WOULD SEEM TO BE ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY AND ALMOST FANTASY LAND TO THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO OFFER GROUND TROOPS.

BUT THE SAUDIS COULD CERTAINLY USE A STRONGER, COHERENT MESSAGE OF SUPPORT, CONSISTENT MESSAGE OF SUPPORT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PROBABLY THE SAUDIS BEHIND THE SCENES WILL BE SORT OF ARGUING IN FAVOR OF TRYING TO BRING THAT REGIONAL STABILITY BUT AT THE SAME TIME TWINNING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IRAN PROBLEM WITH THEIR OWN HOUTHI PROBLEM, BECAUSE THE IRANIANS AND THE HOUTHIS ARE ALIGNED.

BUT IT SEEMS AT THE MOMENT THAT THE HOUTHIS, AS YOU SAY, DO TO A DEGREE HAVE THE UPPER HAND, BUT THE SAUDIS -- IT IS A VERY BIG COUNTRY WITH VERY DEEP POCKETS, AND IT COULD BE A LONG, DRAWN-OUT, EXPENSIVE WAR, BUT IT IS NOT ONE THAT THEY CAN BACK AWAY FROM BECAUSE IT IS ON THEIR DOORSTEP AND IT THREATENS THEIR ECONOMY, AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH, WITH OR WITHOUT THE U.S.

SUPPORT.

THE SAUDIS CLEARLY WOULD PREFER TO HAVE THAT.

>> AND COMING AT A REALLY IMPORTANT TIME ECONOMICALLY AS YOU NOTED FOR THE SAUDIS WITH THESE MULTIPLE INVESTMENT FORUMS AND CONFERENCES JUST SCHEDULED FOR WEEKS FROM NOW.

NIC ROBERTSON IN LONDON FOR US.

THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NEXT TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE WHERE UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS SAY RUSSIAN STRIKES TARGETED A DENSELY POPULATED AREA AND A POWER PLANT IN KHARKIV, VIOLATING THE SURPRISE ENERGY CEASE-FIRE THAT U.S.

PRESIDENT TRUMP CLAIMED BOTH UKRAINE AND RUSSIA HAD AGREED TO.

IT WAS FIRST ANNOUNCED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN A TRUTH SOCIAL POST ON SUNDAY, WRITING THE AGREEMENT WAS, QUOTE, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

UKRAINIAN LEADER ZELENSKYY SAYS HE HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE BUT WAS OPEN TO IT IF PRESIDENT PUTIN ALSO AGREED.

THIS COMES AS THE U.S.

IS COMING UNDER FIRE FOR SIGNING A DEAL TO BUY RUSSIAN DIESEL WHILE THREATENING TO HALT WEAPONS PURCHASES IF UKRAINE DOESN'T STOP STRIKING MOSCOW'S ENERGY FACILITIES.

TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL OF THIS I'M JOINED BY FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER DMYTRO KULEBA JOINING US FROM KYIV.

DMYTRO, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO JUST IF YOU CAN SET THE CURRENT UNDERSTANDING FOR US RIGHT NOW FROM YOUR CONTACTS IN KYIV.

IS THERE AN ACTUAL AGREEMENT OR ANNOUNCEMENT THAT UKRAINE IS BEING UNDER -- IS PRESSURED NOW TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON?

>> WELL, THERE SEEM TO BE THREE DIFFERENT READINGS OF THE SITUATION.

WASHINGTON SEEMS TO BELIEVE THAT IT'S MADE A DEAL.

KYIV SAYS IT IS READY TO BE PART OF THE DEAL IF RUSSIA HONORS ITS PART MANY OF THE AGREEMENT, AND RUSSIA DOESN'T SEEM TO HONOR IT AT ALL.

THERE ARE RUMORS AND REPORTS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS PUTTING PRESSURE ON EUROPEAN AND UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS, BUT THE PRICE FOR UKRAINE IS TOO HIGH UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND KYIV DECIDED TO KEEP A COOL HEAD, PUT EMOTIONS ASIDE, AND ACT WITHOUT COMPROMISING ITS OWN INTERESTS IN THIS CASE.

>> YEAH, IT DOES SEEM AS IF AT THIS POINT THE VACILLATING, SORT OF HOT-AND-COLD LINES FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP, DEMAND FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP, HIS MOOD TOWARDS THE COUNTRY SEEMS TO NOT BE AS SURPRISING AS IT ONCE WAS EVEN EARLIER THIS YEAR TO UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS.

THE PRESIDENT NOW TELLING UKRAINIANS TO GET A NEW PRESIDENT WHILE PUTIN CONTINUES TO BOMB THEIR COUNTRY.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OVER THE WEEKEND REITERATED THAT UNDER THEIR LAW THAT THEY CANNOT, AND UNDER THE CONSTITUTION SINCE THE COUNTRY IS UNDER MARTIAL LAW THEY CANNOT HOLD ELECTIONS, BUT HE OFFERED A 60-DAY CEASE-FIRE FOR WHICH IF RUSSIA STOPS ITS ATTACKS THEY WOULD GLADLY HOLD A DEMOCRATIC ELECTION.

YOU'VE DEALT WITH WASHINGTON FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE THAT VERY TIGHT LINE AND TIGHT ROPE OF MAINTAINING RELATIONS WHILE STILL HOLDING FIRM FOR YOUR DOMESTIC AUDIENCE AND UKRAINIANS BACK HOME?

>> WELL, YOU'RE RIGHT.

YOU, ONE, NEED A LOT OF CHARACTER AND STAMINA TO ACTUALLY DEAL WITH WASHINGTON THESE DAYS.

PREDICTABILITY IS NOT THE PARTICULARLY STRONG FEATURE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION.

SO UKRAINIANS FOLLOW THE DARWIN RULE, WHICH IS IT IS NOT THE STRONGEST THAT SURVIVES BUT THE ONE WHO ADAPTS BETTER.

SO WE KIND OF MOLD OURSELVES INTO THE ADAPTATION MODE, NOT ONLY VIS-A-VIS PRESIDENT PUTIN AS HE CONTINUES TO ESCALATE HIS WAR BUT ALSO TOWARDS PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE CONTINUES TO KIND OF PRESENT UKRAINE WITH SURPRISES.

>> "THE FINANCIAL TIMES" FIRST REPORTED, CNN IS CONFIRMING, MUCH OF THIS REPORTING THAT WASHINGTON IS NOW THREATENING TO CUT INTELLIGENCE SHARING AND BLOCK AMERICAN WEAPONS SALES TO UKRAINE, THAT THEY WOULD -- TO EUROPE THAT THEY WOULD THEN PROVIDE TO UKRAINE IF UKRAINE DID NOT FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE U.S.

'S DEMAND TO STOP TARGETING SPECIFICALLY ENERGY FACILITIES.

HOW EXPOSED WOULD UKRAINE BE IF THE UNITED STATES FOLLOWED THROUGH ON THESE DEMAND?

AND WE SHOULD NOTE THERE WERE SIMILAR THREATS MADE AND ISSUED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION AS RECENTLY AS LAST YEAR.

>> EXACTLY.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE ARE HEARING THE THREATS, AND I MEAN WE -- WE CAN CALL THEM BY THE NAME.

IT IS BLACKMAIL.

AND KYIV UNDERSTANDS ONE VERY SIMPLE RULE.

IF YOU BOW ONCE, BASICALLY YOU WILL BE DISMANTLED OVER TIME, AND, THEREFORE, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IT NOT BE IN A POSITION TO CONCEDE THE SECURITY OF THE COUNTRY TO AMERICA'S DEMANDS BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE TO ADAPT TO WHATEVER DECISION COMES FROM WASHINGTON.

IF THE INTELLIGENCE SHARING IS SUSPENDED, WE WILL RELY ON WHATEVER CAN -- WHATEVER OUR EUROPEAN FRIENDS CAN SHARE WITH US.

IF THE PLURAL PROGRAM, WHICH IS THE PROGRAM TO BUY AMERICAN WEAPONS FOR UKRAINE THROUGH NATO IS SUSPENDED, WE WILL HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE WITHOUT THESE WEAPONS.

IT WILL BE DEVASTATING.

IT WILL BE BAD FOR THE COUNTRY.

IT WILL BE VERY GOOD FOR RUSSIA, AND MORE CIVILIANS ARE GOING TO DIE BECAUSE OF THE DECISIONS OF THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE IN.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO ADAPT TO DETERIORATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> AS FOR THE INTELLIGENCE SHARING, HOW MUCH OF THAT SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO TARGETING OF ENERGY FACILITIES IN RUSSIA, HOW MUCH OF THAT ACTUALLY CAME FROM THE U.S.

INTELLIGENCE?

>> WELL, TO BE HONEST, I THINK MANY VIEWED THE INTELLIGENCE SHARING AS A WAY TO HELP UKRAINE ATTACK TARGETS IN RUSSIA, BUT LIVING IN KYIV I CAN TELL YOU THAT FOR ME THIS INTEL SHARING MATTERS MORE WHEN IT HELPS TO IDENTIFY THREATS COMING FROM RUSSIA TO UKRAINE.

FOR EXAMPLE, EVERY TIME SOMEWHERE DEEP IN RUSSIA A BOMBER, A STRATEGIC BOMBER CARRYING MISSILES TAKES OFF TO HIT KYIV, IT IS OUR PARTNERS WHO INFORM US ABOUT THE TAKE-OFF.

EVERY TIME THERE IS A MASSIVE, THERE IS A BARRAGE OF MISSILES AND DRONES ON KYIV THAT RUSSIA IS PREPARING TO SEND, WE LEARN FROM OUR PARTNERS THAT PREPARATIONS ARE UNDER WAY.

SO WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT INTEL SHARING, IT IS ABOUT PROTECTING CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE, AND ONCE IT IS REMOVED MORE CIVILIANS ARE GOING TO DIE DUE TO THE SUSPENSION OF THIS PROGRAM.

>> WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATE ON THE BATTLEFIELD RIGHT NOW?

>> IT IS STABLE, AND I WOULD NOT EXPECT ANY BREAKING NEWS FROM THERE IN EITHER DIRECTION.

SINCE THIS SUMMER THE WAR MOVED STRATEGICALLY TO THE AIR, AND WITH ALL DUE REGARD RESPECTFULLY TO OUR HEROIC ARMY, OUR INFANTRY AND OTHER GROUND FORCES, IT IS DEVELOPMENTS IN THE AIR THAT DEFINE THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS CONFLICT.

UNFORTUNATELY, AS YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE BALLISTIC INTERCEPTORS.

WE SUFFER ENORMOUSLY FROM JETS-POWERED DRONES.

THIS IS WHERE UKRAINE IS NOT WINNING AND HAS TO DEVELOP ITS OWN CAPABILITIES BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM WE CAN GET THEM FROM ANYWHERE ELSE TO DETER RUSSIA IN THE AIR.

>> WE HEAR NOW MORE AND MORE CONCERN FROM EUROPEAN OFFICIALS, ESPECIALLY THOSE ON THE EASTERN FLANK, EASTERN COUNTRIES THAT BORDER OR ARE CLOSER TO RUSSIA THAT THEY SHOULD BE THOROUGHLY PREPARED FOR NOT ONLY HYBRID ATTACKS OR ELECTRONIC, CYBERATTACKS, BUT ACTUAL KINETIC STRIKES FROM RUSSIA.

IF NOT IMMINENTLY, THEN IN THE MONTHS AND YEARS TO COME.

WHAT IS THE CALCULATION THAT YOU THINK PUTIN HAS MADE ABOUT WHY, WITHOUT HAVING CONQUERED UKRAINE, HE WOULD THEN SET HIS SIGHTS FOR NATO COUNTRIES AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES?

>> THERE IS A SAYING THAT GENERALS ALWAYS PREPARE FOR THE WAR OF THE PAST, AND NOTHING COULD BE MORE TRUE WHEN PEOPLE THINK OF HOW PUTIN MIGHT ATTACK A NATO COUNTRY WHILE STILL BEING TIED IN UKRAINE.

IT IS VERY SIMPLE BECAUSE HE IS FIGHTING THE WAR OF THE FUTURE.

HE WILL NOT ATTACK A NATO COUNTRY IN EUROPE THE WAY HE ATTACKED UKRAINE.

HE WILL NOT SEND THOUSANDS OF TANKS, TENS OF THOUSANDS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS TROOPS, HE WILL SEND FIVE DRONES.

ALL HE NEEDS IS FIVE DRONES TO HIT TARGETS IN A NATO COUNTRY IN EUROPE, AND THEN TO WIN HE NEEDS 24 HOURS OF HESITATION AT NATO HEADQUARTERS IN BRUSSELS AND THE EU, EUROPEAN UNION HEADQUARTERS ALSO IN BRUSSELS.

BECAUSE HIS GOAL IS NOT TO CONQUER EUROPE.

HIS GOAL IS TO BREAK EUROPE INTO PIECES TO EXPOSE THAT THE PROMISE OF COLLECTIVE SECURITY IS A LIE AND EVERYONE STANDS FOR HIMSELF.

AND ONCE IT HAPPENS, HE WILL START PRESSING, PRESSING NATIONS INTO -- INTO CONCESSIONS ONE BY ONE.

THIS IS HIS STRATEGY AND THIS IS WHY THE WAR AGAINST A NATO COUNTRY IN EUROPE WILL LOOK AT LEAST IN THE BEGINNING DIFFERENTLY FROM THE WAY IT LOOKED IN UKRAINE.

>> WELL, MANY, INCLUDING SOME MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S OWN PARTY, BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THE PRESIDENT'S MOST RECENT POLICIES AND ANNOUNCEMENTS WOULD ONLY EMBOLDEN PUTIN TO DO JUST THAT.

ONE EXAMPLE IS THE PRESIDENT BYPASSING LAW, FEDERAL LAW HERE PASSED IN 2022, WHICH WOULD BAR THE SALE OF DIESEL TO THE UNITED STATES AFTER RUSSIA'S LARGER-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THAT BUYING RUSSIAN DIESEL WILL ACTUALLY HELP AMERICAN FARMERS AND TRUCKERS WHO ARE FACING HIGHER PRICES.

MANY ECONOMISTS SAY THAT THE HELP WOULD BE, IF ANYTHING, MARGINAL AT THAT, BUT THE PRESIDENT CAME OUT THEN JUST TODAY AND DEFENDED THIS ANNOUNCEMENT BY SAYING EUROPE HAS PAID RUSSIA SOME $250 BILLION FOR ENERGY SINCE THE INVASION, AND THAT IS A FIGURE SUPPORTED BY INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS.

SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT ARGUMENT AND HOW MUCH, EVEN IF EUROPE IS TRYING TO WEAN ITSELF OFF OF RUSSIAN ENERGY, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS BEING A HINDRANCE TO UKRAINE TRYING TO ISOLATE THE KREMLIN RIGHT NOW AND DRAW DOWN ITS COFFERS?

>> WELL, EUROPE IS CLEARLY NOT A SAINT, BUT USING THE ARGUMENT OF EUROPE'S SINS TO EXCUSE YOUR OWN SINS IS KIND OF COUNTERPRODUCTIVE IF I'M TO SPEAK IN DIPLOMATIC TERMS.

LISTEN, IT'S -- IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT SUPPORTING UKRAINE ANYMORE.

PUTIN IS -- HE DOES NOT RESPECT PRESIDENT TRUMP AS MUCH AS PRESIDENT WANTS TO BE RESPECTED BY HIM.

HE IS USING HIM.

HE IS USING HIM TO SET THE STAGE FOR, LET'S SAY ALL KINDS OF ATTACKS THAT MAY TAKE PLACE AGAINST -- AGAINST EUROPE.

PUTIN IS THE CLOSEST ALLY OF CHINA, AND WE KNOW WHAT CHINA IS TO THE UNITED STATES.

AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID, THIS DIESEL DEAL ANNOUNCED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, IT DOES NOT HAVE REAL ECONOMIC MEANING.

IT IS POLITICAL BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP KIND OF DECIDED TO PLAY INTO THE HANDS OF PRESIDENT PUTIN UNDER THIS -- UNDER THIS SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT PUTIN IS NOT A FRIEND AND EVERYTHING HE DOES, IT IS AGAINST THE STRATEGIC INTERESTS OF AMERICA.

SO WHILE YOU KIND OF EMPOWER HIM BY GIVING HIM MORE ROOM POLITICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY, YOU ACTUALLY MAKE YOUR ADVERSARY STRONGER.

>> I WANT TO PLAY SOUND FOR YOU FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WHEN HE WAS ASKED OVER THE WEEKEND WHY HE THINKS PRESIDENT TRUMP ALWAYS BLAMES HIM FOR PROLONGING THIS WAR INSTEAD OF PRESIDENT PUTIN.

HERE IS WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID.

>> THESE PEOPLE CAN'T FIND A KEY HOW TO STOP PUTIN.

BECAUSE IT IS MORE DIFFICULT TO STOP PUTIN THAN TO PRESSURE OTHERS, BECAUSE IT IS MORE SIMPLE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE PRICES AND CONNECT IT WITH UKRAINE WHEN EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD UNDERSTANDS BECAUSE OF THE WAR IN MIDDLE EAST THE PRICES ARE RISING.

>> I'M WONDERING AS WE CONTINUE TO SEE SHIFTING TACTICS BY UKRAINE THAT ARE BEING CONDEMNED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP BUT HAVE -- HAVE LITERALLY PUT A COST ON PRESIDENT PUTIN AND THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, NOT TO MENTION THE MILLIONS OF SOLDIERS THAT HAVE BEEN WOUNDED OR KILLED, THE WAR STILL CONTINUES.

HE'S NOT GIVING UP.

FIRST IT WAS TAKING THE WAR TO RUSSIAN CITIES, TO MOSCOW, TO ST.

PETERSBURG.

THAT WASN'T ENOUGH TO GET VLADIMIR PUTIN TO STOP.

IT WAS THEN GOING AFTER ITS ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT HASN'T BEEN ENOUGH TO GET PUTIN TO STOP.

IT WAS -- [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] NOW IT IS A WAR AND PUTIN STILL WON'T STOP.

SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAD YOU TO BELIEVE THIS WAR WILL ACTUALLY COME TO AN END?

DOES THAT HAPPEN WHILE PUTIN IS STILL IN POWER?

>> WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT ALL WARS EVENTUALLY COME TO AN END.

THIS IS WHAT HUMAN HISTORY TEACHES US.

PEOPLE FIGHT ALL THE TIME, BUT FIGHTS COME TO AN END.

THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

THE BAD NEWS IS THAT I BELIEVE PUTIN AS PRESIDENT IS A GUARANTEE OF WAR.

ANYONE WHO COMES AFTER HIM WILL BE A CHANCE FOR PEACE, AND THIS IS WHY THREE MONTHS AGO THE QUESTION "WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO CHANGE PUTIN'S CALCULUS" WAS STILL RELEVANT.

BUT TODAY I THINK THE RIGHT QUESTION TO ASK SOUNDS DIFFERENT.

"HOW OR WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO OUT LIVE PUTIN?"

PUTIN RESTRUCTURED HIS COUNTRY FOR THE WAR.

THE WAR BECAME THE SOUL OF THE RUSSIAN NATION, OF THE RUSSIAN STATE MACHINERY.

LOOK AT THE OUTCOMES OF ELECTIONS TO THE STATE DUMA, THE PARLIAMENT OF RUSSIA.

LOOK AT THE BUDGET WITH INCREASING EXPENDITURES.

LOOK AT THE EDUCATION OF CHILDREN WHEN KIDS ARE TAUGHT TO ASSEMBLE DRONES AT SCHOOLS.

LOOK AT THE PROPAGANDA.

LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF SO-CALLED HYBRID ATTACKS ON EUROPE.

I MEAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING IT FOR?

TO MAKE PEACE?

CLEARLY NOT.

AND THIS IS WHY -- >> YES.

>> -- WE SHOULD REALLY PUT -- WE SHOULD REALLY PUT ASIDE THE IDEA THAT IT IS GOING TO END IN THREE MONTHS, IN SIX MONTHS OR IN A YEAR AND SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO HIM, WE ARE IN THIS AGAINST YOU AS LONG AS YOU ARE IN THIS AGAINST US, AND WE WILL BE STRONGER THAN YOU.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN THERE SEEM TO BE NO SIGNS OF PUTIN PREPARING PERHAPS FOR A POST-WAR RUSSIA ANY TIME SOON.

THIS WAR ITSELF HAS PROVEN TO BE EXISTENTIAL FOR HIM.

WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME, FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER DMYTRO KULEBA.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW TO HEADLINES BRINGING RENEWED FOCUS TO AMERICA'S USE OF THE DEATH PENALTY, SPARKING FIERCE DEBATE IN MANY QUARTERS WITH U.S.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH ANNOUNCING THE PENTAGON WILL LIVESTREAM THE EXECUTION OF NADAL HASSAN WHO KILLED PEOPLE AT THE BASE IN 2009.

>> HE WILL GET A FIRING SQUAD OF SOLDIERS AS IT SHOULD BE AND WE WILL MAKE SURE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO WATCH IT, THAT IT IS PUBLIC BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR THESE TYPE OF THINGS.

>> HASSAN'S WOULD BE THE FIRST PUBLIC EXECUTION IN AMERICA IN NEARLY 100 YEARS AND MANY HAVE REACTED WITH SHOCK AND HORROR.

>>> MEANWHILE, 12 DAYS AFTER A BOTCHED EXECUTION IN TENNESSEE LEFT INMATE CHRISTA PIKE HOSPITALIZED SHE IS BACK IN PRISON.

PIKE WAS CONVICTED ALONG WITH HER BOYFRIEND OF TORTURING AND KILLING HER CLASSMATE COLLEEN SLEMER IN 1995.

SHE WAS SET TO BE THE FIRST WOMAN TO BE EXECUTED IN TENNESSEE IN MORE THAN 200 YEARS AND HAS SPENT THREE DECADES IN PRISON.

SISTER HELEN PREJEAN HAS DEVOTED MUCH OF HER LIFE CAMPAIGNING AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY AND SHE JOINS ME NOW.

SISTER HELEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT IS GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK ON THE PROGRAM.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD DEFENSE SECRETARY HEGSETH ANNOUNCE THAT NADAL HASSAN'S EXECUTION WOULD BE LIVESTREAMED?

>> I MEAN THIS GLORIFYING AND TRYING TO MAKE VIOLENCE REDEMPTIVE THAT IS JUST RAMPANT IN THE LEADERSHIP OF OUR COUNTRY WE KILL PEOPLE, WE CALL FOR THEIR EXECUTIONS.

THE VIOLENT LANGUAGE IS IN THE RHETORIC, DEMEANING PEOPLE, CALLING THEM NAMES.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S ALL VERY PRESENT.

IT IS THE DOMINANT PART OF THE LEADERSHIP UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THEN ALSO WITH THE DEATH PENALTY AND THE STATES OF YOU KILL PEOPLE.

I MEAN VIOLENCE IS THE WAY THINGS WORK IN THE UNITED STATES UNTIL WE WAKE UP ENOUGH OF OUR CITIZENS TO BRING IT TO A HALT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, WHAT IS THE DISTINCTION YOU DRAW BETWEEN WITNESSING AN EXECUTION AND BROADCASTING ONE?

>> HUH.

BIG DIFFERENCE, OF COURSE.

WITNESSING, I AM THERE PRIMARILY FOR THE HUMAN BEING WHO IS BEING KILLED, FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT MY FACE.

I AM ALSO THERE AS A WITNESS FOR MY SOCIETY BECAUSE IT IS A SECRET RITUAL, EXECUTIONS ARE.

THERE ARE ONLY A FEW CHOSEN WITNESSES, AND THEY EVEN CLOSE THE CURTAIN WHILE THEY'RE TRYING TO INSERT NEEDLES, THESE TECHNICIANS IN PRISONS THAT ARE NOT HEALTH CARE PEOPLE, WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT, WHICH WAS THE PROBLEM WITH CHRISTA.

THEY COULDN'T FIND A VEIN.

THEY'RE NOT SKILLED.

AND THE DEEP PROBLEM THERE IS MASKING DEATH TO TRY TO LOOK LIKE IT IS HUMANE.

WITNESSING IS DONE FOR MY SOCIETY BECAUSE I NOW REALIZE THIS WHEN I WITNESSED THE FIRST EXECUTION OF PATRICK SONE IN THE ELECTRIC CHAIR AND CAME OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND THREW UP, HAVING WITNESSED IT, THAT BECAUSE I'M A WITNESS AND I HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO IT MY MANDATE AND MY MISSION IS TO BRING IT CLOSE TO THE PEOPLE.

THAT IS WHAT I DO.

I WRITE BOOKS.

I GIVE TALKS, TRAVEL THE COUNTRY TO BRING PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE REALITY OF WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT KILL PEOPLE.

>> WHY IS IT THAT YOU WANT THESE PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EXECUTED, ONE OF THE LAST FACES TO SEE IS YOURS?

>> IT IS ABOUT HUMAN DIGNITY.

THERE'S NO WAY THAT YOU'D TAKE CONSCIOUS, IMAGINATIVE HUMAN BEINGS AND PUT THEM IN SMALL CAGES FOR 15, 20, 30 YEARS AND TAKE THEM OUT AND KILL THEM THAT YOU'RE NOT TORTURING THEM.

IT IS DEMEANING.

IT IS AGAINST HUMAN DIGNITY TO RENDER HUMAN BEINGS PERFECTLY DEFENSELESS AND THEN KILL THEM, WHICH IS THE ESSENCE WHEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EVOLVED AND CHANGED AND DEVELOPED ITS TEACHING ON THE DEATH PENALTY.

THAT WAS THE HEART OF IT.

IT IS AGAINST HUMAN DIGNITY TO RENDER PEOPLE DEFENSELESS AND KILL THEM.

WE HAVE A WAY TO PROTECT SOCIETY.

I MEAN WHEN YOU THINK OF IT, THE DEATH PENALTY IS THE ONLY TIME IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE WHERE YOU IMITATE THE CRIME TO PUNISH THE CRIMINAL, AND YOU HAVE TO EXPOSE THAT TO PEOPLE.

MY HOPE, BIANNA, IS THAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND WHEN YOU DO BRING THEM CLOSE, WHEN PEOPLE READ THE BOOK "DEAD MAN WALKING," WHEN THEY SEE THE MOVIE "DEAD MAN WALKING," AND THEY GET CLOSE TO WHAT IT REALLY MEANS FOR THE STATE TO KILL THEY GET IT.

AND WE CAN SEE 30 STATES NOW EITHER IN LAW OR PRACTICE DON'T HAVE THE DEATH PENALTY.

WE ARE LEFT WITH A POCKET OF EX-SLAVE STATES THAT ARE DOING ALL OF THE KILLING BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT IN THE GREGG DECISION OF '76 WHICH REINSTITUTED THE DEATH PENALTY GAVE HUGE DISCRETIONARY POWER TO GOVERNORS AND TO PROSECUTORS TO APPLY THE DEATH PENALTY.

IT IS UP TO THESE INDIVIDUAL POLITICIANS LIKE WE SEE DeSANTIS DOING IN FLORIDA RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, A NUMBER OF POLITICIANS, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS, HAVE SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THIS IDEA OF LIVESTREAMING NADAL HASSAN'S EXECUTION.

WE'VE EVEN HEARD FROM THE SPEAKER HIMSELF, MIKE JOHNSON, SAYING THAT HE IS AGAINST IT.

HE THINKS THAT IT COULD BE USED AS A RECRUITMENT VIDEO OR PROPAGANDA FOR MORE TERRORISM IN THE FUTURE.

OTHER REPUBLICANS HAVE SPOKEN OUT.

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM SENATOR WHO IS RETIRING, THOM TILLIS HOW HE DESCRIBED THE IDEA.

>> THE FORT HOOD SHOOTER SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH, BUT THERE'S A WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS THAT'S PROPER AND THERE'S A WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS THAT IS MORE IMPROPER THAN I HAVE EVER OBSERVED IN MY LIFE.

THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE AND IT IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHAT PETE HEGSETH AND ALL OF HIS BRAVADO NEEDS TO GET THE HELL OUT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE BECAUSE HE IS A FAILED LEADER, AND WE NEED STRONG LEADERSHIP SUPPORTING PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT NOW.

>> LET ME ALSO PLAY SOUND WHILE WE HAVE IT FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT, WHO WE SHOULD NOTE HIMSELF IS A CATHOLIC.

>> SO WHATEVER THE CONTROVERSY IS ABOUT THE METHOD OF THE EXECUTION, I HOPE THAT PEOPLE DON'T FORGET THAT THIS IS A GUY WHO BRUTALLY MURDERED A LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.

NOW, THAT SAID, I MEAN, LOOK, IF IT IS ULTIMATELY LIVESTREAMED I'M NOT GOING TO BE WATCHING IT.

>> DO YOU FIND YOURSELF SEEING AN OPENING WITH CONSERVATIVES ON THIS ISSUE, OR MAYBE NOT, BECAUSE THEIR OBJECTIONS SEEM TO RELATE SOLELY TO THE LIVESTREAMING OF THE EXECUTION, NOT THE ACT ITSELF?

>> YEAH, WELL, NO, WE HAVE SEEN MOVEMENT IN CONSERVATIVES AROUND THE DEATH PENALTY.

I MEAN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, GOVERNMENT INTRUSION IN LIVES, THERE COULDN'T BE MORE OF AN INTRUSION.

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY, IT COSTS MILLIONS AND MILLIONS TO KILL ONE PERSON, AGAIN USING TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS AND RESOURCES FOR THE NEEDS OF SOCIETY.

LET ME JUST SAY ABOUT THE LIVESTREAMING, I JUST PUT THIS OUT ON OUR SOCIAL MEDIA, SISTERHELEN.ORG.

WE KNOW FROM SOME OF THE MASS KILLERS LIKE THE ONE WHO DID THE -- IN THE BUFFALO SUPER MARKET THAT HE WATCHED OVER AND OVER THE LIVESTREAMING FROM CHRISTCHURCH IN NEW ZEALAND.

HE WATCHED IT OVER AND OVER.

AND IF IT IS LIVESTREAMED, PEOPLE HAVE RADICAL TENDENCIES AND THEY'RE ANGRY AND THEY CAN GET A GUN, AND YOU WATCH THE GOVERNMENT DOING THIS, SHOOTING THE PERSON AND IT IS LIVESTREAMED SO YOU TAPE IT AND YOU VIDEO IT AND YOU LOOK AT IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IT FEEDS THAT ANGER AND THAT VIOLENCE IN PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ACT OUT ON IT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT CHRISTA PIKE'S CASE HERE BECAUSE IN TENNESSEE SHE IS BACK IN PRISON AFTER -- IT IS STILL HARD TO FATHOM HOW SHE SURVIVED, WAS ABLE TO TALK TO HER ATTORNEYS AFTER, AND ABLE TO MAKE A RECOVERY AND NOW BACK IN PRISON AFTER THE BOTCHED EXECUTION.

NOW THEY'RE ASKING THE GOVERNOR TO COMMUTE HER SENTENCE, ESPECIALLY AS WE CANNOT FORGET THE VICTIMS OF THE HORRENDOUS CRIMES AND THE JUSTICE THEY TOO SERVE SO MANY YEARS LATER.

>> LET'S START WITH THE VICTIMS.

IT IS SUCH A MORALLY BANKRUPT THING TO CLAIM THAT YOU'RE KILLING A PERSON FOR THE VICTIMS' SAKE, THAT THIS IS GOING TO HELP HEAL THEM AND GIVE THEM CLOSURE.

THAT IS MORALLY BANKRUPT BY VICTIMS' FAMILIES SITTING ON THE FRONT ROW AND WATCH A PERSON BE KILLED BY THE STATE, WATCHING THAT VIOLENCE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO HEAL A PERSON.

IT IS THE STATE'S WAY OF TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

THE VICTIM'S FAMILY NEEDS A LOT OF HELP.

THEY NEED A LOT OF HEALING FROM COMMUNITY AND SUPPORT AND PRAYER AND CONCRETE WAYS TO HELP THEM HEAL.

BUT WATCHING THE STATE KILL THE ONE WHO KILLED THEIR LOVED ONE AND, BY THE WAY, THE AVERAGE WAITING TIME FOR THAT SO-CALLED JUSTICE, AVERAGE WAITING TIME IS 17 YEARS FROM A DEATH SENTENCE TO EXECUTION.

LOOK AT CHRISTA'S CASE, LOOK HOW LONG IT IS.

AND TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL.

AND THEN CHRISTA PIKE, WHY DID IT FAIL?

THERE HAVE BEEN 20 BOTCHED EXECUTIONS IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS IN THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN LOOK AT OKLAHOMA TRYING TO USE A SEDATIVE INSTEAD OF AN ANESTHETIC.

PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE, BIANNA, IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS ALLOWED THERE TO BE A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY ON WHAT STATES ARE DOING TO KILL PEOPLE.

AND SO THEY'RE FAILING.

>> YEAH.

>> FIRST OF ALL, TRYING TO MAKE THE MEDICAL PROCEDURE WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE PEOPLE TRAINED AND LEARNING OR HOW TO FIND A VEIN WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> YES.

>> THEY PUMPED ALL OF THAT PENTOBARBITAL INTO HER ARM INSTEAD OF THE VEIN.

>> IT WAS SHOCKING AND UNACCEPTABLE INTO THAT PERSPECTIVE, THAT THEY WERE NOT EVEN PREPARED TO DO THEIR JOB CORRECTLY.

SISTER HELEN PREJEAN, THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO COVER THESE STORIES.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME FOR NOW BUT WE HOPE TO SEE YOU BACK SOON.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, AN I.C.E.

SHOOTING IN NEW YORK BRINGS FRESH BACKLASH AND PROTEST ACROSS THE CITY, AND IT COMES AS A MAN WAS SHOT BY AN I.C.E.

AGENT LAST WEEK AS HIS 5-YEAR-OLD SON WATCHED IN THE CAR.

THE CASE PUTS A SPOTLIGHT ON HOW I.C.E.

ARRESTS IMPACT THE CHILDREN CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

SOME 35,000 KIDS HAVE HAD BOTH PARENTS DETAINED ACCORDING TO THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT FOR THESE SEPARATED FAMILIES?

"THE ATLANTIC'S" KATELYN DICKERSON JOINS US TO EXPLAIN.

>> WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE A RECENT PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" TITLED "THE BABIES LEFT BEHIND IN AMERICA" AND IT IS PART OF A STORY YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING NOW ACROSS TWO TRUMP ADMINISTRATIONS.

SINCE JANUARY 2025, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTE IS ESTIMATED THAT THE NUMBER OF AFFECTED CHILDREN WITH AT LEAST ONE PARENTAL DETENTION IS MORE THAN 200,000, AND 71% OF THOSE ACCORDING TO THE ESTIMATE ARE U.S.

CITIZENS.

SO WHO ARE THESE CHILDREN THAT ARE BEING LEFT BEHIND NOW?

WHAT IS THE NEW FAMILY SEPARATION CRISIS IN THIS TRUMP ADMINISTRATION VERSUS THE ONE THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE COVERED AND WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH FROM THE LAST ONE?

>> THE CHILDREN WHO ARE BEING LEFT BEHIND NOW BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS HAVE BEEN DETAINED OR DEPORTED BY I.C.E.

ARE KIDS WHO YOUR VIEWERS KNOW WHO GO TO AMERICAN SCHOOLS, WHO ARE EMBEDDED IN COMMUNITIES, HAVE CHURCH COMMUNITIES THAT THEY'RE A PART OF, EXTENDED FAMILY NETWORKS BECAUSE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SEPARATIONS NOW AND THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS BECAUSE THEY'RE PRIMARILY IMPACTING FAMILIES LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES FOR A LONG TIME.

WE KNOW A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION OF CHILDREN IN THE U.S.

HAVE AT LEAST ONE PARENT BORN OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT THIS TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ISN'T JUST GOING AFTER, YOU KNOW, IN A REALLY AGGRESSIVE WAY UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, FULLY UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS BUT ALSO PEOPLE WHO ENTERED THE UNITED STATES, WERE IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING TOWARD A PERMANENT LEGAL IMMIGRATION STATUS.

SO PEOPLE WHO ENTERED UNDER PAROLE PROGRAMS OR WITH A TEMPORARY STATUS FOR EXAMPLE UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, HAVE SPENT YEARS NOW TRYING TO GAIN PERMANENT STATUS, BUT DURING THAT TIME DEVELOPING THESE NETWORKS AND RELATIONSHIPS, BECOMING EMBEDDED IN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES, AND NOW THESE FAMILIES ARE BEING RIPPED APART.

SO IN 2017 AND 2018, THAT FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEPARATED BETWEEN 5,000 AND 6,000 CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS.

WE STILL DON'T HAVE A PRECISE DATA POINT BECAUSE THE RECORD KEEPING WAS SO POOR, AS YOU WILL RECALL, BUT NOW AS YOU POINTED OUT, YES, RESEARCHERS AT THE BROOKING INSTITUTION HAVE ESTIMATED THAT MORE THAN 205,000 CHILDREN HAVE LOST AT LEAST ONE PARENT TO I.C.E.

DETENTION OR DEPORTATION, AND THAT MORE THAN 35,000 CHILDREN HAVE LOST WHAT THEY CALLED ALL CO-RESIDENT PARENTS.

SO THAT KIDS WITH SINGLE PARENTS WHO ARE DETAINED OR DEPORTED AS WELL AS KIDS LIKE EBEN, THE CHILD IN MY STORY, A 2 YEAR OLD.

BOTH OF HIS PARENTS WERE DEPORTED BY I.C.E., AND SO HE AND SOME 35,000 OTHERS HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH NO GUARDIAN.

LASTLY, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT ESTIMATE RAN UP UNTIL APRIL OF THIS YEAR, AND SO WE CAN ASSUME THE NUMBERS ARE EVEN HIGHER NOW BECAUSE I.C.E.

HAS CARRIED OUT RECORD-BREAKING NUMBERS OF ARRESTS SINCE THEN.

>> SO TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT EBER.

HIS PARENTS ARE DEPORTED BACK TO VENEZUELA.

WHAT IS THE STATUS?

WHERE IS HE NOW?

>> SO HE LIVES WITH HIS MOTHER'S FORMER CO-WORKER.

HER NAME IS ESTELLE IN HER HOUSE OUTSIDE MOBILE, ALABAMA.

HE LANDED IN HER HOME BECAUSE I.C.E.

FIRST DETAINED AND DEPORTED HIS FATHER LAST YEAR.

THEN TOWARD THE END OF THE YEAR, IN NOVEMBER DETAINED HIS MOTHER AS WELL, AND SO HIS PARENTS HAD COME TO THE UNITED STATES UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND THEY HAD FRIENDS.

THEY HAD A COMMUNITY, BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE EXTENDED RELATIVES WHO COULD TAKE THE CHILDREN IN, AND SO THERE WAS REALLY THIS FRANTIC SCURRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE KIDS WHEN HIS MOTHER AND HIS FINAL REMAINING CARETAKER WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY.

INITIALLY A COUPLE OF FRIENDS OF HIS MOTHER'S WHO WERE UNDOCUMENTED TOOK EBEN AND THEN HIS ELDER BROTHER ISIAK, WHO IS 7 YEARS OLD, TOOK HIM IN BUT THEY WERE UNDOCUMENTED AND NOT IN POSITION TO GIVE THE CHILDREN STABILITY.

FOR EXAMPLE, EBEN, WHO HAS HEALTH ISSUES AND WAS ILL, THE WOMAN TAKING CARE OF HIM WAS UNDOCUMENTED AND SCARED TO TAKE HIM TO THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE SHE WAS AFRAID SHE WOULD BE DETAINED.

BASICALLY THERE WERE A BUNCH OF PHONE CALLS MADE TO TRY TO IDENTIFY SOMEBODY WHO WAS MORE STABLE AND ABLE TO TAKE HIM IN AND EVENTUALLY LED TO ESTELLA BECAUSE SHE WORKED WITH HIS MOM AND THESE OTHER UNDOCUMENTED FRIENDS AS I MENTIONED AND SHE WAS THE ONLY UNITED STATES CITIZEN THEY KNEW.

SHE AGREED INITIALLY TO TAKE BOTH BOYS IN.

SHE GOT HIS OLDER BROTHER BACK TO VENEZUELA, BUT EBEN'S SITUATION IS IMPLICATED BECAUSE HE IS A UNITED STATES CITIZEN SO HE CAN'T GO BACK TO VENEZUELA WHERE HIS PARENTS ARE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A VISA, HE DOESN'T HAVE A PASSPORT AND HE CAN'T TRAVEL AS IS THE CASE WITH A MINOR CHILDREN WITHOUT A LEGAL GUARDIAN.

BECAUSE I.C.E.

DIDN'T ALLOW FOR HIS PARENTS TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS IN ADVANCE OF DEPORTING THEM TO EITHER TAKE THE CHILDREN WITH OR TO MAKE THESE KINDS OF DOCUMENTS AVAILABLE SO THAT EBEN COULD LEGALLY TRAVEL, HE IS NOW STUCK IN ESTELLA'S HOME AND HAS BEEN THERE FOR -- HE HAS BEEN THERE SINCE JANUARY.

OWE JUST TURNED 2 YEARS OLD AND IS COMING UP ON A FULL YEAR OF NOT HAVING SEEN HIS MOTHER.

>> SO WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF COSTS THAT ESTELLA IS INCURRING?

I MEAN FINANCIAL, EMOTIONAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL.

>> SO FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY GOT TO ESTELLA'S HOUSE, IT WAS LIKE HE CONSTANTLY WANTED TO BE HELD.

HE NEVER WANTED TO BE HELD.

HE IS STILL THAT WAY.

I SAW IT MYSELF.

HE IS VERY CLINGY.

HE CAN ONLY SLEEP IN THE CROOK OF HER ARM.

A CHILD THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE EMBRACED BECAUSE HE HAS GONE THROUGH SO MUCH TUMULT AND SO MUCH SEPARATION FROM HIS PRIMARY ATTACHMENTS, AND THEN THERE'S A FINANCIAL COST.

SO ESTELLA HAS BEEN PAYING FOR CLOTHING, FOR FOOD, FOR TOYS, FOR EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS, AND HER HUSBAND, WHO IS A CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTOR, IS NOT WORKING AS MUCH AS HE NORMALLY DOES BECAUSE OF THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF THE I.C.E.

ARRESTS.

THERE ARE LOTS OF CONSTRUCTION WORKERS IN THE AREA WHO ARE SCARED TO LEAVE HOME BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO END UP IN THE SAME SITUATION.

SHE CAN'T WORK BECAUSE SHE HAS TO CARE FOR EBEN FULL TIME AND IT HAS BEEN THE FINANCIAL STRAIN ON THE FAMILY.

OF COURSE, EBEN'S PARENTS WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO HELP BUT THEY'RE BACK IN VENEZUELA WHICH HAS AN ECONOMY THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DEVASTATED FOR YEARS NOW, REALLY STRUGGLING.

>> YOU KNOW, IN YOUR REPORTING YOU POINTED OUT THAT HIS MOM WAS ABIDING BY THE LEGAL PROCESS, THAT SHE HAD GONE TO HER I.C.E.

CHECK-INS, AND I WONDER IF THIS IS CREATING A DISINCENTIVE TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW AND THE LEGAL PROCESSES, ESPECIALLY FOR ASYLUM SEEKERS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY STUCK OUT TO ME IN MY REPORTING, AND, IN FACT, THERE'S ANOTHER FAMILY WHOSE STORY I THINK ILLUSTRATES THIS VERY CLEARLY.

A FATHER, I USE PSEUDONYMS TO IDENTIFY THEM BECAUSE THIS FAMILY IS FACING ACTIVE AND SERIOUS THREATS FROM MS13 SO I IDENTIFY THE MOTHER AS ED WAYNE WAYNE -- EDWIN AND MOTHER AS SARAH.

THEY'VE BEEN ON THE RUN FROM MS13 FOR YEARS NOW.

THEY TRIED TO HIDE WITHIN HONDURAS AND WHEN MS13 ULTIMATELY KILLED A CLOSE MEMBER OF THEIR FAMILY WHO THEY MISTOOK FOR SARAH THE FAMILY CAME TO THE UNITED STATES UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, APPLIED FOR ASYLUM AND SPENT YEARS NOW METICULOUSLY FOLLOWING ALL OF THE GOVERNMENT'S REQUESTS SO THEY COULD GAIN LEGAL STATUS THAT REALLY THE SYSTEM WAS SORT OF SET UP TO HELP PEOPLE IN SITUATIONS LIKE THEIRS.

THEY'RE PREPARING FOR A FINAL IMMIGRATION HEARING THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE PLACE THIS JUNE, AND AT ONE OF THOSE I.C.E.

CHECK-INS THE FATHER, EDWIN, WAS DETAINED IN JANUARY WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION, WITHOUT ANY ADVANCED NOTICE.

AND SO I SPENT SEVERAL MONTHS INTERVIEWING BOTH HIM AFTER I MET HIM IN HONDURAS WHEN I WAS REPORTING THERE AND THEN HIS WIFE WHO WAS IN THE SUBURBS OF DALLAS, NOW SOLE CAREGIVER FOR HER TWO CHILDREN, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE DO, AND SHE LIKE OTHERS I INTERVIEWED ULTIMATELY DECIDED SHE WASN'T GOING TO ATTEND HER I.C.E.

CHECK-INS ANYONE.

SHE WASN'T GOING TO KEEP WORKING TOWARD LEGAL ASYLUM STATUS.

SHE FELT TO GO HOME TO HONDURAS AND BRING HER CHILDREN TO HER COULD BE A DEATH SENTENCE FOR THEM.

ON THE OTHER HAND SHE THOUGHT CONTINUING TO ATTEND HER I.C.E.

CHECK-INS WHEN SHE FELT AT ONE OF THEM SHE WOULD INEVITABLY BE DETAINED AND LEAVE HER CHILDREN WITH NO CAREGIVER AT ALL, THOSE OPTIONS JUST WEREN'T FEASIBLE FOR HER, WEREN'T SOMETHING SHE COULD IMAGINE DOING.

SO SHE CHOSE THIS OTHER OPTION WHICH TO HER HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN UNTHINKABLE, WHICH WAS JUST TO GO UNDERGROUND AND REALLY BECOME THE KIND OF, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, LAW BREAKER WHO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CLAIMS THIS CAMPAIGN IS INTENDED TO CRACK DOWN ON.

>> HAS THERE BEEN A CHANGE IN POLICY WHERE WE NO LONGER CARE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SOMEBODY IS >> YES.

IN FACT, WHEN I REACHED OUT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO ASK THEM TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY, THEY -- THEY SAID THAT TO ME VERY PLAINLY.

THAT HAVING A PENDING APPLICATION FOR LEGAL STATUS IS NOT CONSIDERED A SHIELD FROM DEPORTATION.

WHEREAS, PREVIOUSLY IT WAS, AND SO THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE -- THERE ARE MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST SOME FORM OF STATUS UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE OF ITS ELIMINATIONS OF TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS AND OF PAROLE PROGRAMS, ITS CHALLENGES TO ASYLUM.

SO THAT'S LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW VULNERABLE TO ARREST IF THEY REMAIN IN THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU ALSO WROTE ABOUT THE STORY OF ORLAND HERNANDEZ REYES, AND TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM.

>> SO ORLAND HERNANDEZ REYES, HIS MOTHER WAS DETAINED IN A LOUISIANA DETENTION FACILITY.

IN FACT, THE SAME ONE WHERE EBEN'S MOTHER WAS DETAINED.

WHEN SHE AND HER SISTER WERE TAKEN INTO CUSTODY, THEY ARTICULATED THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE TO TAKE THEIR CHILDREN IN WHO WAS SAFE.

OLAN ENDED UP WITH HIS MOTHER'S SISTER'S EX-BOYFRIEND, A MAN KNOWN TO BE DANGEROUS BECAUSE HE WAS SIMPLY THE ONLY ADULT WHO WAS AROUND WHO COULD TAKE THE KIDS IN.

WHEN HIS MOM WENT INTO I.C.E.

CUSTODY, SHE ARTICULATED SHE SAYS TO I.C.E.

OFFICIALS REPEATEDLY THAT HE WAS NOT SAFE, THAT THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE TO TAKE CARE OF HIM.

SHE BEGGED TO BE REUNITED WITH HIM BEFORE BEING DEPORTED TO HER HOME COUNTRY, AND I.C.E.

DENIED THAT REQUEST.

SO THIS IS IMPORTANT.

SHE'S JUST ONE OF SEVERAL PARENTS IN MY STORY WHO AGREED TO BE DEPORTED.

THEY SAID, OKAY, I WILL LEAVE BUT PLEASE GIVE ME MY CHILD BACK FIRST AND I.C.E.

DID NOT HEED THAT REQUEST.

LATER WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT ORLEEN DIED.

HIS BODY WAS FOUND WITH SIGNS OF PHYSICAL AND SEXUAL ABUSE AND THE MAN WHO WAS CARING FOR HIM HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH MURDER.

HE HAS PLED NOT GUILTY BUT IT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING HIS MOTHER SEES AS ENTIRELY PREVENTABLE, AND SOMETHING THAT I.C.E.

COULD HAVE ADDRESSED BY, AGAIN, EITHER ALLOWING HER TO CONTINUE HER LEGAL IMMIGRATION PROCESS OR BY AT LEAST REUNITING THEM BEFORE THEY DEPORTED HER.

>> YOU KNOW, A WEEK AFTER ORLEEN'S DEATH I.C.E.

DIRECTOR TODD LIONS SAID THAT HIS MOTHER, QUOTE, CHOSE TO LEAVE HER SON HERE WITH A VIOLENT MURDERER WHO TOOK HIS LIFE.

WHAT DID SHE SAY TO THAT?

I MEAN DID SHE DOCUMENT HOW SHE PLEADED WITH THEM NOT TO LEAVE HER SON WITH THIS MAN?

>> SO I BELIEVE IN HER CASE THERE ARE RECORDS OF THE REQUEST SHE MADE TO BE REUNITED.

IN MY REPORTING WITH OFFICIALS ON BACKGROUND WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT, WHAT I LEARNED TO BE THE CASE IS THAT SOMETIMES WHEN PARENTS MAKE THESE REQUESTS TO BE REUNITED THERE ARE RECORDS THAT CAN BE FOUND.

SPECIFICALLY WHEN PARENTS USE AN INTERNAL TABLET SYSTEM THAT EXISTS AT LOTS OF DETENTION CENTERS WHERE THEY CAN CONTACT A DEPORTATION OFFICER DIRECTLY, BUT WHAT I ALSO FOUND IS THAT IN PLACES WHERE THE TABLETS DON'T EXIST, WHERE DETAINEES DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THEM AND WHERE THERE'S JUST SO MUCH PRESSURE TO CARRY OUT DEPORTATIONS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT THE NECESSARY RECORD KEEPING AND CARE FOR THE WELL-BEING OF CHILDREN IS THAT THERE WERE CASES OF PARENTS WHO I MET IN MY REPORTING WHO WERE DEPORTED AND WHO SAY THEY INDICATED THAT THEY WERE PARENTS, WHO REQUESTED TO BE REUNITED, BUT I.C.E.

HAD NO RECORD WHEN I REACHED OUT SHOWING THAT THEY WERE THE PARENTS OF MINOR CHILDREN, THAT THESE REQUESTS HAD BEEN MADE.

AND SO I WROTE ABOUT A POLICY, THE PARENTAL INTEREST DIRECTIVE THAT I.C.E.

HAS HAD FOR MANY YEARS AND IT HAS EVOLVED SEVERAL TIMES, BUT IN ITS MOST RECENT ITERATION PRIOR TO THIS TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THIS POLICY REQUIRED I.C.E.

OFFICERS TO ASK EVERYONE WHO IS IN DETENTION IF THEY WERE THE PARENT OF A MINOR CHILD AND, IN FACT, TO ASK THEM DURING EVERY INTERACTION TO MAKE SURE CASES LIKE THIS COULDN'T SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS.

FROM THERE IF A PARENT INDICATED THEY HAD CHILDREN, I.C.E.

OFFICIALS WERE EITHER SUPPOSED TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS FOR THE FAMILY TO BE REUNITED PRIOR TO DEPORTATION OR OBTAIN A SWORN STATEMENT INDICATING WHO THE LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THOSE CHILDREN WOULD BE BEFORE DEPORTATION.

WHEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REISSUED THAT POLICY IN 2025, IT ADDED A LOT OF CAVEATS, WAYS OF GETTING OUT OF THESE REQUIREMENTS.

SO NOW THE POLICY SAYS THINGS LIKE, DO THESE STEPS IF OPERATIONALLY FEASIBLE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN POSSIBLE.

AND SO I THINK THOSE ARE LOOPHOLES THAT ARE REALLY BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT I.C.E.

OFFICERS HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY NEED TO CARRY OUT AS MANY ARRESTS AS POSSIBLE.

>> I.C.E.

ISSUES THIS SORT OF STATEMENT THAT SAYS, I.C.E.

DOES NOT SEPARATE FAMILIES.

PARENTS ARE ASKED IF THEY WANT TO BE REMOVED WITH THEIR CHILDREN OR I.C.E.

WILL PLACE THE CHILDREN WITH A SAFE PERSON THE PARENT DESIGNATES.

I MEAN IS THIS TRUE THAT PARENTS ARE ASKED IF THEY WANT TO BE DEPORTED WITH THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEN WHAT ARE THE HURDLES IF THEY SAY YES, AND HOW ARE THE STORIES THAT YOU ARE REPORTING HAPPENING IF WHAT I.C.E.

SAYS IS TRUE VERSUS WHAT THE PARENTS SAY IS TRUE?

>> SO MY REPORTING CONTRADICTS WHAT I.C.E.

SAYS IT IS DOING TO MAKE SURE THAT CHILDREN HAVE A SAFE PLACE TO GO BEFORE PARENTS ARE DEPORTED.

I HAVE FOUND THAT I.C.E.

STATEMENT TO BE TRUE IN SOME CASES.

I HAVE MET PARENTS WHO HAVE BEEN DEPORTED WHO ARE ASKED IN ADVANCE IF THEY WANTED TO BE DEPORTED WITH THEIR CHILDREN OR TO DESIGNATE A LEGAL CAREGIVER AND THEY WERE ALLOWED TO DO SO, BUT I HAVE ALSO FOUND MANY WHO WERE NOT GIVEN THAT OPPORTUNITY INCLUDING THOSE WHO BEGGED FOR IT.

>> SO WALK US THROUGH WHAT HAPPENS HERE.

I MEAN IF A PARENT IS DETAINED, WHO DECIDES WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CHILD?

>> SO IT IS A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROCESS.

A LOT OF TIMES I FOUND THAT I.C.E.

WOULD TAKE A PARENT INTO CUSTODY, A PARENT MIGHT SAY, "HEY, MY KID IS AT HOME, THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY TO TAKE CARE OF THEM," AND THE I.C.E.

OFFICIAL WOULD ESSENTIALLY SAY TO THE PARENT THAT THAT'S NOT MY PROBLEM.

SO THERE IS NO ORDER OF OPERATIONS THAT IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWS OTHER THAN THE DIRECTIVE THAT WE TALKED ABOUT, WHICH I.C.E.

SOMETIMES FOLLOWS AND SOMETIMES DOESN'T.

BUT EVEN WHEN AN OFFICIAL DOES GO AND TRY TO SAY, OKAY, I'M GOING TO REUNIFY, TRY TO WORK TOWARD REUNIFYING THIS FAMILY IN ADVANCE OF DEPORTATION OR ESTABLISH A CONFIRMED CAREGIVER, THERE'S NO MANUAL FOR HOW TO DO IT SO THERE'S LOTS OF INCONSISTENCY.

IN TERMS OF THE CHILD WHO IS LEFT BEHIND, AGAIN, VERY HAPHAZARD.

SO I HAVE LEARNED OF CHILDREN WHO ARE STAYING WITH FRIENDS OF THEIR PARENTS, WITH EXTENDED RELATIVES OF THEIR PARENTS.

IN SOME CASES LOCAL CHILD WELFARE AGENCIES ARE GETTING INVOLVED, BUT A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THESE SITUATIONS ARE STAYING QUIET ABOUT THEM.

>> I CAN HEAR A VIEWER SAYING, LISTEN, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS ALSO FORCIBLY SEPARATING PARENTS.

I KNOW THAT CECELIA MUNOZ, PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION IN 2018, SAID THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DID NOT DO THAT, WE DID NOT SEPARATE CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS.

NOW HERE WE ARE A DECADE AND A HALF LATER FROM WHEN THESE POLICIES BEGAN.

WHAT IS CONCERNING TO YOU NOW ABOUT HOW THE POLICIES ARE BEING CARRIED OUT ON THE FRONT LINE?

>> I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK, AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE WERE LARGE NUMBERS OF FAMILY SEPARATIONS THAT TOOK PLACE, PARTICULARLY IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

AFTER THAT AND AFTER THE PUBLIC BACKLASH FRANKLY, THESE GUARDRAILS WERE PUT INTO PLACE LIKE THAT PARENTAL INTEREST DIRECTIVE THAT WE TALKED ABOUT TO TRY TO MITIGATE THESE HARMS.

SO BY THE END OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION PARENTS OF MINOR CHILDREN COULD BE PUT ON ANKLE BRACELETS, THEY COULD BE PUT INTO PROGRAMS WHERE THEY WERE REQUIRED TO ATTEND I.C.E.

CHECK-INS, AND REQUIRED TO CONTINUE TO MAKE THEIR PRESENCE KNOWN TO THE GOVERNMENT BUT THEY WERE NOT BEING DEPORTED IN NEARLY AS SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS, AND REALLY ONLY IN EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION REACTED TO AND UNDERSTOOD THE HARM THAT KIDS EXPERIENCE AS A RESULT OF THESE DEPORTATIONS THAT NOW WE'RE GOING BACK IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WITH YET ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION THAT IS NOT AS CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELFARE OF CHILDREN EVEN WHEN THEIR NUMBERS ARE MASSIVE AND THE HARM IS AS SIGNIFICANT AS WE KNOW THAT IT IS WHEN KIDS, IN PARTICULAR YOUNG KIDS ARE ALL OF A SUDDEN RIPPED FROM THEIR PRIMARY CAREGIVER.

>> CAITLIN DICKERSON, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR REPORTING.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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