>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON" CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR HARVARD'S LAURENCE TRIBE AND FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER JOIN ME TO WEIGH THROUGH WHAT WE LEARNED AND WHAT COMES NEXT AFTER THE U.S. HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE'S LATEST HEARING ON ITS CAPITOL INSURRECTION.

IF YOU MISSED TODAY'S 9th AND LIKELY FINAL JANUARY 6th HEARING HEAR WERE SOME OF THE MAJOR MOMENTSES AS THE COMMITTEE SOUGHT TO TIE A BOW ON ITS CASE THAT DONALD TRUMP PERSONALLY PLANTED THE SEEDS, THEN REPEATEDLY STOKES THE FIRES BOTH BEFORE THE DEADLY ATTACK AND DURING IT.

AND AS CONGRESSWOMAN LIZ CHENEY EMPHASIZED, THE SAME STHING COULD HAPPEN AGAIN IF WE'RE NOT CAREFUL.

THE COMMITTEE REVIEWED HOW THE THEN PRESIDENT WANTED ONGOING VOTE COUNTING TO END WITH CLAIMS OF AN ELECTION DAY DEADLINE THAT DID NOT EXIST.

>> THIS IS A FRAUD ON THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO OUR COUNTRY.

WE WERE GETTING READY TO WIN THIS ELECTION, FRANKLY WE DID WIN THIS ELECTION.

>> WE WANT TO ALL VOTING TO STOP.

>> Braude: ACCORDING TO THE COMMITTEE TRUMP HAD LONG PLANNED TO DECLARE VICTORY WHETHER HE ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTION OR NOT.

ALL HIS CLOSEST ALLIES KNEW IT AND SOME EVEN SPOKE ABOUT IT PUBLICLY.

>> HE WAS GOING TO DECLARE VICTORY, EVEN-- BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE IS THE WINNER, IS HE JUST GOING TO SAY HE IS THE WINNER.

WHEN WE WAKE UNWEDNESDAY MORNING T IS GOING O TO BE A FIRE STORM.

>> ALSO, IF TRUMP IS LOSING, BY 10 OR 11:00 AT NIGHT T IS GOING TO BE EVEN CRAZE YER.

>> NO, BECAUSE IS HE GOING TO SIT RIGHT THERE AND SAID THEY STOLE IT.

>> AGREE.

>> I'M DIRECTING THE A ATTORNEY GENERAL TO SHUT DOWN ALL BALLOT PLACES IN ALL 50 STATES.

IT'S GOING TO BE NUTS.

IS HE NOT GOING OUT EASY.

>> ALL HELL IS GOING TO BREAK LOOSE TOMORROW.

IT IS ALL CONVERGING AND NOW WE'RE ON AS THEY SAY THE POINT OF A ATTACK.

AND ALL CAN I SAY IS STRAP IN.

>> THE KEY THING TO DO IS TO CLAIM VICTORY, POSSESSION THE IS 9/10 OF THE LAW.

>> AS WITNESSES TESTIFIED TRUMP KNEW HE LOST BUT HE HAD NO INTENTION OF ADMITTING IT.

>> HE SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WE LOST, MARK.

THIS IS EMBARRASSING.

FIGURE IT OUT.

WE NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT.

I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT WE LOST.

>> Braude: AND SO AS WE HEARD IN PRIOR HEARINGS AT LENGTH, TRUMP PRECEDED TO PEDDLE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT DOMINION VOTING MACHINES, SUITCASES FULL OF BALLOTS AND OTHER CLAIMS DESPITE BEING REPEATEDLY TOLD BY MULTIPLE OFFICIALS THAT THEY WERE FLATTED OUT CRAZY.

TRIED TO REPLACE HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL AGAIN, AN EFFORT HE ONLY BACKED DOWN ON BECAUSE THE ENTIRE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LEADERSHIP THREATENED TO RESIGN.

AND THEN TRUMP TURNED HIS ATTENTION TO HIS VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

PRESSURING HIM TO BLOCK CERTIFICATION, WHICH THE COMMITTEE SAID HE ALSO KNEW WAS ILLEGAL.

AND DESPITE THE OFFICIAL CLAIMS THAT NO ONE SAW THIS COMING, THE COMMITTEE PRESENTED NUMEROUS EMAILS SHOWING THE SECRET SERVICE THAT IS BETTER AT ERASING TEXTS THAN WARNING LAW ENFORCEMENT OF THREATS, KNEW WHAT WAS COMING ON JANUARY OFth.

WITH EMAILS AS FAR BACK AS DECEMBER 24th TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE DESCRIBING THEM SEVERES AS QUOTE ARMED AND READY WITH PLANS TO MARCH INTO THE CHAMBERS AND MAKE SURE THEY KNOW WHO TO FEAR.

AND IN AN EMAIL ON DECEMBER 26th STATING QUOTE THEIR PLAN IS TO LITERALLY KILL PEOPLE.

PLEASE, PLEASE TAKE THIS TIP SERIOUSLY.

AND INVESTIGATE FURTHER.

>> AND ONCE THE RIOTING BEGAN AS SO MANY WERE WARNED IT WOULD, DONALD TRUMP REFUSED TO CALL OFF HIS SUPPORTERS DESPITE MULTIPLE OFFICIALS, MEDIA PERSONALITIES AND EVEN HIS OWN KIDS BEGSING HIM TO STOP.

INSTEAD HE WATCHED AS THE VIOLENT BATTLES RAGED ON TV.

AND TODAY THE COMMITTEE SHOWED US NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE OF SOME OF WHAT UNFOLDED INSOORD THE CAPITOL AS LEADERS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE DID ALL THEY COULD TO STOP THE VIOLENCE IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY ACTION FROM TRUMP.

>> WE'RE GOING TO GET SURROUNDED.

THEY'RE TAKING THE NORTH FRONT SCAFFOLDING.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HOLD UNLESS.

>> WE HAVE TO GET THE SENATE TO PROCEEDINGS OR ELSE THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO.

>> U.S.A.. >> WE NEED-- THEY ARE ALL WALKING OVER NOW THROUGH THE TUNNEL.

>> WE'RE COMING IN IF YOU DON'T BRING HER OUT.

>> I'M GOING TO CALL UP THE EFFING SECRETARY OF DOD.

WE HAVE SENATORS STILL IN THEIR HIDEAWAYS, THEY NEED MASSIVE PERSONNEL NOW K YOU GET THE MARYLAND NATIONAL GUARD TO COME TOO.

>> I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY MR. SECRETARY, I'M GOING TO CALL THE MAYOR OF WASHINGTON D.C.

RIGHT NOW AND SEE WHAT OTHER OUTREACH HE HAS, OTHER POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

>> GET HIM UP.

>> HI GOVERNOR, THIS IS NANCY.

GOVERNOR, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN APPROACHED ABOUT THE VIRGINIA NATIONAL GUARD, MR. HOYER WAS SPEAKING TO GOVERNOR HOGAN BUT I STILL THINK YOU PROBABLY NEED THE OKAY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ORDER TO COME INTO A ANOTHER JURISDICTION.

>> WHY DON'T YOU GET THE PRESIDENT TO TELL THEM TO LEAVE THE CAPITOL PLRKS ATTORNEY GENERAL, IN YOUR LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSIBILITY.

PUBLIC STATEMENT THEY SHOULD ALL LEAVE.

U.S.A., U.S.A., U.S.A. >> THIS IS CANNOT BE JUST WE'RE WAITING FOR SO AND SO.

WE NEED THEM THERE NOW, WHATEVER YOU GOT.

YOU ALSO HAVE TROOPS, THIS IS STENY HOYER.

ANDREWS AIR FORCE BASE, OTHER MILITARY BASES.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WE NEED ACTIVE DUTY, NATIONAL GUARD.

>> HOW SOON IN THE FUTURE CAN YOU HAVE THE PLACE EVACUATED?

CLEANED OUT?

>> I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR THE LEADERSHIP-- THAT WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR EXECUTING THE OPERATION, SO I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THAT.

BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING ON THE GROUND-- .

>> WITH THE WHITE HOUSE SOME OTHER ENTITIES THAT IS UNDER SEIGE.

>> Braude: WE ALSO HEARD WITH CONGRESSWOMAN JAMIE HERRERA BEUTLER SAID WHAT LEAD UP TO THE EXPLETIVE FIGHT BETWEEN TRUMP AND HOUSE MINORITY LEADER KEVIN McCARTHY.

>> HE FINALLY GOT THROUGH TO DONALD TRUMP AND HE SAID YOU HAVE GOT TO GET ON TV.

YOU HAVE TO GET ON TWITTER.

YOU HAVE GOT TO CALL THESE PEOPLE OFF.

YOU KNOW WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID TO HIM, TASK IS WAS HAPPENING, HE SAID KEV I, THESE AREN'T MY PEOPLE, KEVIN SPOPPEDDED AND SAID NO, THEY ARE YOUR PEOPLE, THEY CAME THROUGH MY OFFICE WINDOWS AND MY STAFF ARE RUNNING FOR COVER.

THEY ARE RUNNING FOR THEIR LIVERS.

YOU NEED TO CALL THEM OFF.

AND THE PRESIDENT'S SPONGES TO KEVIN TO ME WAS CHILLING.

HE SAID WELL, KEVIN, I DWES THEY'RE JUST MORE UPSET ABOUT THE ELECTION THEFT THAN YOU.

>> Braude: TO FINISH TODAY'S HEARING THE COMMITTEE INDICATED THEY WOULD BE CONSIDERING CRIMINAL REFERRALS FOR SEVERAL PEOPLE, AND THEN TO END THE DAY IN A TRULY DRAMATIC MOMENTS, THEY TOOK A VOTE ON WHETHER TO SUBPOENA DONALD TRUMP, CALLING ON HIM TO SUBMIT BOTH RELEVANT DOCUMENTS AND TESTIMONY ON THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK UNDER OATH.

>> THE QUESTION THAT IS ON AGREEING TO THE RESOLUTION.

THOSE IN FAVOR WILL SAY AYE.

>> AYE.

>> THOSE OPPOSED NO, AND IN THE OPINION OF THE CHAIR, THE AYES HAVE IT.

>> I'M JOINED NOW BY NANCY GERTNER RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE AND SENIOR LECH TUR EAR AT HARVARD LAW KAL AND LAURENCE TRIBE, GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> JUDGE GERTNER, LET ME START WITH YOU.

HELL OF AN ENDING.

THEY VOTE UNANIMOUSLY TO SUBPOENA TRUMP AND IT SEEMS TO ME IS HE EITHER NOT GOING TO SHOW, AND IN THE UNLIKELY EVENT HE SHOWS HE TAKES THE FIFTH PLUS THE CLOCK IS GOING TO RUN OUT ON THE COMMITTEE ANYWAY SO WHAT IS THE END GAME FOR THE COMMITTEE ON THIS?

>> I THINK THEY AM TO GIVE HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER.

I THINK IT'S A SIMPLE AS THAT.

I MEAN THEY HAD TO PUT AN EXCLAMATION POINT ON THIS AND GIVE HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN.

BY THE WAY, I THINK THAT HE'S ALSO GOING TO LIT GATE THIS TO KINGDOM COME AS HE HAS DONE WITH EVERYTHING.

BUT I THINK HE HAD HAD TO TURN IT OVER TO HIM AND SAID WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I THINK OTHERWISE HE WOULD SAY I DIDN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE.

>> Braude: DO YOU SHARE THAT E-- EXPLANATION, LARRY TRIBE.

>> I DO SHARE IT.

I THINK THERE IS A LITTLE MORE TO IT THAN THAT.

HE IS IN A REALLY HARD POSITION.

BECAUSE HE HAS SAID IN THE PAST ONLY THE GUILTY TAKE THE FIFTH.

SO THAT IS NOT GOING TO LOOK VERY GOOD.

HE CERTAINLY CAN'T SAY OH, I DON'T WANT THE ATTENTION.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT ISN'T TRUE.

HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.

HE WILL BE HELD IN CONTEMPT IF HE DOESN'T SHOW.

AND THAT WILL ADD TO THE CRIMINAL REFERRALS THAT ARE GOING TO BE MADE.

BECAUSE I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO REFER HIM FOR CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, FOR SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY AND INSURRECTION.

THEY'VE LAID THE GROUND WORK AND HE'S GOING TO LOOK HORRIBLE IF HE DOESN'T SHOW.

BUT I AGREE WITH NANCY THAT HE WILL TRY TO PLAY IT OUT BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY ARGUMENTS TO MAKE.

THAT HASN'T STOPPED HIM BEFORE.

BUT HAVING LOST NINE TO NOTHING IN THE SUPREME COURT TODAY, TODAY MIND YOU, BECAUSE HE HAD NO ARGUMENTS TO MAKE, THINK THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO BEGIN TO SEE THROUGH THE CURTAIN IT IS WEARING A LITTLE BIT THIN.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, SINCE YOU MENTIONED IT LARRY TRIBE, THERE IS ANOTHER LEGAL SCHOLAR WHO TOTALLY AGREES WITH YOU AND HERE HE IS.

>> THE MOB TAKES THE FIFTH, IF YOU ARE INNOCENT, WHY ARE YOU TAKING THE FIFTH AMENDMENT?

>> Braude: EXACTLY.

I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

LARRY TRIBE, YOU MENTIONED THE SUPREME COURT RULING TODAY IN THIS DOCUMENTS DISPUTE ABOUT THE HUNDRED CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS.

THE SUPREME COURT TO MY UNDERSTANDING IS IT WAS UNANIMOUS INCLUDING BEGINY THOMASS HUSBAND, IF I UNDERSTAND.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANTS OF THAT, BEYOND THE CONFINES OF THE CASE ITSELF?

>> WELL, IT'S AWFULLY SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE TRUMP HAS REPEATEDLY SAID THAT THE SUPREME COURT WOULD BAIL HIM OUT.

THEY MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY DIDN'T AND BEGINY THOMAS DIDN'T DISSENT -- EXCUSE ME, CLARENCE THOMAS DIDN'T DISSENT AND IT ALSO SENDS A STRONG SIGNAL TO THE 119 CIRCUIT WHICH HAS EXPEDITED TRUMP'S OTHER EFFORT TO HOLD ON TO THIS SPECIAL MASTER WHO HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN THE CASE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THEY ARE LIKELY NOW TO SEND JUDGE CANON OUT OF THE PICTURE, AND COMPLETELY CLEAR THE PATH FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO PROCEED TO AN INDICTMENT FOR THE VARIOUS CRIMES HE'S COMMITTED AT MAR-A-LAGO WHICH ARE NOW PILING UP.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW NANCY GERTNER, GO AHEAD.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF ALL OF OUR FOLLOWING JUDGE CANON STUFF WITH THE MAR-A-LAGO DOCUMENTS, IS THAT IT WINDS UP DIG ANY FYING ARGUMENTS WHICH LARRY AND I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG WERE BASELESS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN GO TO THE HAGUE, WHERE FINALLY SOMEONE HAS PULLED THE PLUG ON THIS AND SAID THIS IS COMPLETELY BASELESS.

AND THAT I THINK WILL HAVE REPERCUSSIONS DOWN THE LINE.

>> Braude: STAYING WITH YOU, JUDGE GERTNER, LIZ, CONGRESSWOMAN CHENEY OPENED THE HEARING TODAY.

ONE THE OF THE FIRST THINGS SHE SAID OPENED THE SESSION BY SAYING THE CENTRAL CAUSE OF JANUARY 7th WAS ONE MAN, DONALD TRUMP.

LARRY TRIBE HAS ALREADY SAID WHAT THINKS THIS COMMITTEE ACCOMPLISHED ON THEIR FRONT.

DO YOU THINK THEY MADE THEIR CASE?

THIS IS ESSENTIALLY WAS A CLOSING ARGUMENT TOLD.

>> OH, I THINK THEY MADE THE CASE IN WAYS THAT WERE NOT AT ALL CLEAR AND ALSO IN WAYS THAT WERE NOT AS EMOTIONALLY PALPABLE AS THIS.

YOU KNOW, SAYING TO CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, I KNOW, OR SAYING TO MEADOWS THAT SHE OVERHEARD, I KNOW I LOST.

KNOWING THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE VIOLENT, DOING NOTHING WHILE THE LEGISLATORS WERE HOVERED, YOU KNOW, IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION.

I MEAN HIS FINGERPRINTS ARE ALL OVER THIS IN WAYS THAT WE SORT OF KNEW BUT WAS NEVER AS CLEAR AS NOW.

>> LARRY TRIBE F I EVER COMMIT A CRIME I'M JUST GOING TO PRAY THAT LIZ CHENEY IS NOT THE PROSECUTOR.

>> SHE HAS BEEN UNBELIEVABLE.

>> DYNAMITE.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS SHE DROPPED TODAY WAS THAT UNLIKE WHAT CHAIRMAN THOMPSON SAID EARLY IN THE HEARINGS, THAT IT WAS UNLIKELY THERE WOULD BE A CRIMINAL REFERRAL, SHE SUGGESTED THEY WERE GOING TO VOTE AT SOME POINT FOR A NUMBER OF CRIMINAL REFERRALS.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT HAS NO LEGAL SIGNIFICANTS, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, OBVIOUSLY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

SO WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING SUCH A VOTE?

>> WELL, YOU ARE CERTAINLY RIGHT T HAS NO LEGAL SIGNIFICANTS BUT IT WOULD HAVE REMARKABLE POLITICAL SIGNIFICANTS IF AFTER ALL OF THIS, THEY MADE REFERRALS TO PROSECUTE OTHERS FOR DEFYING THE COMMITTEE AND DIDN'T PROSECUTE OR URGE THE PROSECUTION OF DONALD TRUMP FOR TRYING TO DESTROY THE CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

IT WOULD BE MORE THAN JUST A DOG THAT DIDN'T BARK.

IT WOULD BE A VERY LOUD SILENCE.

AND SO THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE REFERRALS AND THEIR CASE IS GOING TO BE VERY POWERFUL.

I THINK THEY REALLY WILL LEAVE ATTORNEY GENERAL GARLAND WITH NO CHOICE.

I MEAN THE MAR-A-LAGO DEVELOPMENTS MAKE IT CLEAR THAT HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO INDICT TRUMP FOR THE THEFORT OF THE DOCUMENTS AND FOR OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AND FOR ESPIONAGE BUT NOW HE CANNOT STOP WITH THAT.

HE WILL HAVE TO CONTINUE.

AND AUTHORIZE AN INDICTMENT OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT FOR TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT AND PREVENT A TRANSITION OF POWER.

I THINK NOW IT'S INEVITABLE.

>> YOU KNOW LARRY TRIBE.

>> I HAVE BEEN SAYING IT IS INEVITABLE FOR AWHILE BUT-- .

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU HAVE, LARRY TRIBE, I KNOW ARE YOU SICK OF PEM SAYING MERRICK GARLAND, YOUR FORMER STUDENT, BUT HE WAS YOUR FARMER STUDENT.

>> I'M NOT SICK OF IT.

I'M PROUD OF IT.

>> Braude: IF I'M MERRICK GARLAND, I DON'T WANT A COMMITTEE, EVEN THOUGH IT IS BIPARTISAN WITH TWO REPUBLICANS, EVEN THOUGH VIRTUALLY EVERY WITNESS WAS A REPUBLICAN INCLUDING MOSTLY TRUMP ACOLYTE, AT LEAST AT ONE POINT IN THEIR CAREER.

I DON'T WANT A COMMITTEE IN CONGRESS MAKING ANY REFERRAL TO ME.

I WANT TO STAND ALONE.

WOULDN'T YOU THINK THAT HE WOULD HAVE THAT PERSPECTIVE AS WELL?

I MEAN HE DOESN'T GET A VOTE BUT WOULDN'T HE PREFER IT THAT WAY?

>> I THINK AT THIS POINT IT WOULD, YOU KNOW, HE IS FINE EITHER WAY BUT I THINK AT THIS POINT HE ALSO WOULD HEAR VERY STRANGE SILENCE IN THE SHOE THAT DIDN'T DROP, SO I THINK HE'S GOING TO RECOGNIZE THIS AS INEVITABLE.

IT IS NOT GOING TO EFFECTS HIM.

BUT I THINK HE WILL FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE AS HE HAS SAID, WHERE IT LEADS.

HE HAS DEVOTED HIS LIFE TO THE RULE OF LAW AND NOW THAT POINTS IN ONLY ONE DIRECTION.

>> I WILL GETS BACK TO THAT IN A SECOND.

BUT I WOULD LIKE YOU BOTH TO TAKE OFF YOUR LEGAL ATTIRE IF YOU CAN FOR A MINUTE AND START WITH YOU JUDGE GERTNER AND JUST SPOND TO THIS AS AN ORDINARY CITIZEN.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE POLLS ON THE PUBLIC REACTIONS TO THESE HEARINGS.

BUT I WILL PUT UP A POLL FROM MONDAY MOUTH UNIVERSITY.

THEY CONCLUDED THIS POLLING OVER A PERIOD OF TIME ON AUGUST 1S.

TODAY WAS THE FIRST HEARING SINCE, SO IT INCLUDED ALL THE PRIOR HEARINGS.

AND I HAVE TO SAY, ST REALLY TROUBLING.

ON VIRTUALLY EVERY ISSUE, JANUARY 6th WAS A RIOT, EXACT SAME NUMBERS BEFORE AND AFTER HEARINGS.

JANUARY 6th WAS A LEGITIMATE PROTEST.

SAME NUMBERS.

TRUMP IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE, THAT NUMBER ACTUALLY WENT DOWN AFTER ALL THEIR PRIOR HERE HEARINGS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT, AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

I HATED TO BE OVERLY DRAMATIC, FOR THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY, JUDGE GERTNER?

>> WELL, TWO THINGS.

ONE IS YOU'RE GETTING HIS BASE IN THESE POLLS.

I'M NOT-- YOU KNOW, THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE.

>> BUT NONE OF THEM ARE MOVED.

NOBODY, NO INDEPENDENTS WHO SUPPORT TRUMP, NO BASE PEOPLE MOVED.

>> I THINK THAT-- I WONDER IF IT IS BEING DRIVEN BY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY ZEALOTS.

I ALSO THINK THAT-- I THINK THAT AFTER THE HEARINGS PARTICULARLY THE WAY THE COMMITTEE HAS BEEN, THAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE BOUND TO CHANGE.

>> DOES IT TROUBLE-- ARE YOU.

>> THOSE NUMBERS ARE BOUND TO CHANGE.

>> Braude: ARE YOU TROUBLED BY THEM, LARRY TRIBE, OR NO?

>> WELL, I'M TROUBLED BUT I'M NOT DEVASTATED.

I SORT OF AGREE WITH NANCY GERTNER THAT THEY MAY NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT A A CROSS SECTION OF THE PUBLIC.

A LOT OF PEOPLE, I'VE TALKED TO SOME OF THEM WHO ARE NOT REALLY WATCHING OR WHO WATCH A LITTLE AND THEN ARE RECORDED AS HAVING TURNED ON THE TELEVISION, ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON IT WHEN ONE THING THAT REALLY FOCUSES THE MIND HAPPENS.

A FORMER PRESIDENT IS INDICTED.

PEOPLE WILL THEN WAKE UP.

AND I THINK TODAY'S SYNTHESIS OF ALL THE HEARINGS WILL ALSO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I THINK A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND POLLS STILL ARE THEORETICAL UNTIL SOMETHING CONCRETE HAPPENS IT IS SORT OF LIKE THE OVERRULING OF ROE V. WADE T DIDN'T MOVE THE NEEDLE VERY MUCH UNTIL IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

AND THEN, AND THEN THINGS BLEW UP.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW LARRY TRIBE, I WANT TO QUOTE YOU TO YOU FROM THE LAST TIME YOU WERE ON THE SHOW, THIS GOT A LITTLE BIT OF PLAY, SPEAKING OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE FACES JAIL TIME ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

THAT WAS WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY.

AND HAVE I A QUESTION, IT'S HORRIBLE WHEN YOU HAVE TO SAY BEFORE A QUESTION I'M REALLY SERIOUS WHEN I ASK YOU THIS.

YOU MENTIONED HE MIGHT BE INDICTED FOR ON THE MAR-A-LAGO CASE, THE DOCUMENTS.

LET'S ASSUME HE'S INDICTED, HE BEING TRUMP, ON THOSE CASES, THAT CASE.

NOT INDICTED ON THE INSURRECTION WHICH WE'VE LEARNED FROM YOU TOO THAT UNDER THE 14th AMENDMENT IF CONVICTED HE WOULD BE BARRED FROM HOLDING FEDERAL OFFICE, DOWN THE LINE.

HE'S ONLY INDICTED AND CONVICTED FOR THE DOCUMENTS, THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, THE MISHANDLING OF DOCUMENTS.

COULD HE RUN FOR OFFICE AS A CONVICTED PERSON, MAYBE EVEN A JAILED PERSON IF THAT WAS THE ONLY THING HE WAS GOTTEN ON.

>> YES.

>> SO HE COULD BE ELECTED PRESIDENT FROM A FEDERAL PRISON CELL?

>> IT'S GOING TO BE HARD AND UGLY, BUT COBE.

>> Braude: DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT JUDGE GERTNER.

>> I AGREE THE PROBLEM IS THE LANGUAGE OF THE CONSTITUTION TAWNGS ABOUT, ESSENTIALLY, PARTICIPATING IN AN INSURRECTION.

SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO SET, AND THERE IS NO WAY THE DOCUMENTS CASE CAN BE PAR LAYED INTO THAT.

>> Braude: BUT JUST TO BE CLEAR, YOU BOTH THINK THAT THERE IS A FAR BROADER SET OF INDICTMENTS COMING INCLUDING THOSE CONNECTED TO THE INSURRECTION STARTING WITH YOU, LARRY-- GUJ GERTNER.

>> LARRY MADE A POINT THAT I THINK WAS AN IMPORTANT ONE, THERE ARE THE INDICTMENTS RELATED TO THE INSURRECTION OF THE ONE OF THE SIGNIFICANTS OF THESE HEARINGS IS THAT IN THE ORDINARY COURSE THERE IS A CONFIDENTIAL GRAND JURY WHICH YOU HOPE NOTHING LEAKS FROM AND THEN AN INDICTMENT, THE SIGNIFICANTS.

JANUARY 6th HEARING IS THAT THIS EVIDENCE HAS BEEN PLAYED FOR EVERYONE TO SEE, THIS WILL NOT BE AN INDICT THAMENT WILL COME AS A SURPRISE THAT WILL LOOK THERE WILL BE PEOPLE, IT IS POLITICAL.

BUT THIS WAS, I THOUGHT THEY PLAYED A CRITICAL ROLL, ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS AN INDICTMENT BECAUSE WE NEVER WOULD HAVE SEEN THE BASIS FOR IT, IT IS SORT OF THE ANALOGY THE MAR-A-LAGO SEARCH.

IT WASN'T UNTIL YOU SAW AT LEAST SOME VERSION.

SEARCH WARRANT AFFIDAVIT THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THIS WAS NOT A GRATUITOUS THING.

SO THERE IS THE JANUARY 6th DOCUMENT, THE MAR-A-LAGO STUFF.

BUT LARRY IS RIGHT, IF TRUMP DOES NOT SHOW UP TO, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER REFERRAL FOR CRIMINAL CONTEMPT FOR NOT SHOWING UP.

SO THAT WILL BE IN THE MIX AS WELL.

>> BUT WHAT I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS, LARRY, YOU FORE SEE A BROAD SPECTRUM OF INDICTMENTS INCLUDING RELATING TO SEDITION AND INSURRECTION AND THOSE SORT OF THINGS.

>> I THINK THAT IS LIKELY.

I'M WILLING TO SAY WITH GREAT CONFIDENCE THAT THERE WILL BE INDICTMENTS OF CRIMINAL ACT.

AND ACTS WHETHER THEY INCLUDE THE INSURRECTION AND THE SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY, I'M LESS CERTAIN OF.

BUT I WOULD SAY ABOUT 60, 65% LIKELY THAT THAT IS GOING TO BE INCLUDED.

>> SO I WANT TO TURN TO THE FUTURE FOR A SECOND T SEEMS TO ME THERE ARE TWO ISSUES COMING OUT OF ALL OF THIS.

WILL THE PRESIDENT AND HIS MEN AND WOMEN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

WE'VE DISCUSSED THAT.

FOCUS OF THE HEARINGS BUT I WILL PLAY FOR YOU ONE OF THE FINAL THINGS THAT WAS SAY BY LIZ CHENEY TODAY ABOUT THE FUTURE, HERE IS THE CONGRESSWOMAN.

>> A KEY LESSON OF THIS INVESTIGATION IS THIS.

OUR INSTITUTIONS ONLY HOLD WHEN MEN AND WOMEN OF GOOD FAITH MAKE THEM HOLD, REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL COST.

>> AND BY THE WAY, SPEAKING OF POLITICAL COSTS, SHE SUFFERED THE SECOND WORST DEFEAT OF ANY INCUMBENT IN THE LAST 60 YEARS BECAUSE OF HER HOLDING FAST.

SO LARRY STARTING WITH YOU, DONALD TRUMP'S RE-ELECTED.

I DON'T SEE THE GUARD RAILS IN PLACE.

INSTEAD OF THE PEOPLE HE PICKS, HE PICKS FLIN, STONE, BANNON AND APPOINTS THEM TO KEY POSITION.

WHAT STOPS THEM FROM DOING WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS THEM TO DO WITH NO CONTROLS, WITH NO HOLDS AT ALL?

>> VERY LITTLE.

DO YOU HAVE INFORMATION ABOUT FLIGHTS TO NEW ZEALAND?

>> Braude: AS A MATTER OF FACT, I DO.

WELL, BEFORE I LEAVE YOU FOR A SECOND, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AT LEAST A SMALL STEP IN THAT DIRECTION, BY THE WAY CHENEY AND OTHERS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE COMMITTEE PROPOSING LEGISLATION.

THE ONLY LEGISLATION I KNOW ABOUT IS THE LEGISLATION THAT HAS ALREADY PALED THE HOUSE THAT IS BEFORE THE SENATE, THAT MITCH McCONNELL SAYS HE SUPPORTS.

THESE REFORMS TO THE ELECTORAL COUNT ACT.

WHICH IT SEEMS TO ME ON A COUPLE OF FRONTS DO IMPORTANT THINGS.

ONE SAYING WHAT WE KNEW TO BE TRUE ANYWAY BUT SAYING IN ONE WORD THAT THE FUNCTION OF THE THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE QUOWNT IS PURELY MINUTES STER YELL, ONE.

TWO, UPPING THE NUMBERS FROM ONE IN EACH CHAMBER I THINK TO 20% IN EACH CHAMBER, TO CHALLENGE A DELEGATION FROM A STATE AND THIRDLY SAYING THAT THE ELECTORS ACTUALLY HAVE TO REPRESENT THE VOTES OF THAT ACTUAL STATE WHICH AGAIN SOUNDS PREPOS TRUSS TO EVEN SAY.

STARTING WITH YOU, LARRY, THAT DOES PROVIDE SOME PROTECTION, DOES IT NOT?

>> A LITTLE BUT IT DOESN'T QUITE SAY THAT THEY HAVE TO REPRESENTS THE VOTES OF THE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: WHAT DOES IT SAY?

>> IT SAYS THAT THE LAW IN PLACE AT THE TIME OF THE ELECTION HAS TO CONTROL.

THE LAW IN PLACE AT THE TIME OF THE ELECTION CAN LEAVE ROOM FOR THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO COME BACK AND MAKE A CHANGE AND THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS BEFORE IT A CASE RIGHT NOW WHERE IT MIGHT SAY THAT THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF GIVES THE STATE LEGISLATURE THAT ROLL REGARDLESS OF WHAT CONGRESS SAYS.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS WELL BEFORE YOU GET TO THAT.

BECAUSE 299 OF THE FEDERAL AND HIGH STATE OFFICIALS WHO ARE RUNNING IN THE MID TERM ELECTIONS AND PLAY CRITICAL ROLLS IN CERTIFYING VOTERS ARE READY TO SAY THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT VOTES THAT ARE CAST IN A DIRECTION THAT THEY DON'T AGREE WITH, ARE LEGITIMATE VOTES.

I MEAN THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE ONLY LEGAL VOTES ARE THE VOTES WE AGREE WITH.

AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO COUNT THE VOTES.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SEND THE CERTIFICATION AND NOTHING IN THE REFORMED VERSION OF THE ELECTORAL COUNT ACT CAN REACH DOWN INTO THE STATES AND PREVENT THOSE ELECTION DENIERS FROM WORKING THEIR WILL, SO THINGS ARE REALLY SKETCHY.

ONLY AN OVERWHELMING WIN FOR DEMOCRATS IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE IN NOVEMBER WILL HOLD THE REPUBLIC IN PLACE.

>> Braude: WHICH IS UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN.

YOU KNOW, OF THOSE 299 PEOPLE THAT THE "WASHINGTON POST" MENTIONED WHO ARE ELECTION DENIERS, REPUBLICAN NOMINEES, NANCY GERTNER, 18 OF THEM BY MY COUNT ARE SECRETARIES OF STATE CANDIDATES, INCLUDING THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

SO DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE OPTIMISM ABOUT POTENTIAL GUARD RAILS OR THE VALUE OF THE ELECTORAL FORE MALT THAN LARRY DOES?

>> I AGREE WITH LARRY THAT THE ELECTORAL REFORM ACT DOESN'T ADDRESS STATE QUALIFICATIONS FOR ELECTIONS.

DOESN'T STOP THE SUPREME COURT FROM SAYING THAT STATE LEGISLATORS, LEGISLATURES HAVE THE LAST WORD.

I HAVE SOME HOPE THAT THIS, THESE HEARINGS AND IF THEY RESULT IN A CRIMINAL PROSECUTION OF THE LECH-- OF THE ELECTION DENIER IN CHIEF, WILL CHILL SOME OF THAT.

THERE WILL THEN BE AT LEAST A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT IS WILLING TO TO THE EXTENT THEY CAN, LOOK AT SOME OF THESE ISSUES THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE INDICTMENTS COMING OUT OF GEORGIA.

REALLY, THAT IS SORT OF THE SYMBOLIC IMPORTANCE OF THE JANUARY 6th HEARINGS WHICH IS THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES TO THIS.

BUT THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE ACT IF PASSED DOESN'T ADDRESS THE CHAOS IN THE STATES.

>> Braude: GEORGE DA GA'S OBVIOUSLY 11,000 VOTE, DO YOU HAVE THE TIME STARTING WITH LARRY TRIBE TO STEP BACK AND ACTUALLY SAY I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING?

IN THIS COUNTRY?

THIS ENDLESS LITANY, I MEAN PEOPLE WERE TRASHING BARACK OBAMA BECAUSE HE INCORRECTLY SAID THAT YOU CAN KEEP YOUR DOCTOR UNDER THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

THAT WENT ON FOR YEARS.

EVERY SINGLE DAY THERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION, CORRUPTION, IN 30 SECONDS, DO YOU EVER STEP BACK AND SHAKE YOUR HEAD?

>> I ALWAYS AM CONSTANTLY AM SHAKING MY HEAD TO THE POINT WHERE I THINK MY BRAIN IS GOING TO-- .

>> Braude: COME OUT YOUR EARS.

>> HIT MY CRANEIUM AND COME OUT MY EARS.

NO, BUT I HAVEN'T GIVEN UP.

WE HAVE TO KEEP STRUGGLING.

AND I THINK THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN THROUGH SOME PRETTY TOUGH TIMES.

AND SOME SCHOLARS SAY THAT WHAT IS GOING ON NOW IS A LOT LIKE WHAT WENT ON IN 1866 TO 1870, AFTER THE CIVIL WAR AND YOU KNOW, WE MAY GO THROUGH LOTS OF VIOLENCE.

WE MAY HAVE A REALLY TOUGH TIME.

BUT THE POSSIBILITY OF COMING OUT THE OTHER END IN TACT STILL REMAINS.

AND IF WE GIVE UP HOPE IT WON'T REMAIN.

>> Braude: LAST 20 SECONDS IS YOURS, JUDGE.

>> I NEVER IMAGINED ON THE EVENING OF NOAFER 2016, ON THE EVENING OF THE ELECTION THAT SOMEONE, ONE PERSON COULD DO THE KIND OF DAMAGE THAT TRUMP HAS DONE.

WE THOUGHT HE WAS SORT OF A USEFUL IDIOT, HE WOULD BE INCOMPETENT BUT NOBODY QUITE ENVITIONZ-- ENVISIONED THIS.

SO IN ONE SENSE, AND THIS IS REALLY BEING RIDICULOUS OPTIMIST F WE CAN COME OUT OF THIS T WILL BE GOOD TO KNOW HOW FRAGILE OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE.

AND RESPOND TO THAT.

HOPEFULLY WE CAN RESPOND TO IT THOUGH.

>> Braude: I WILL TAKE THOSE TWO INSTANCES OF HOPE.

LARRY TRIBE, NANCY GERTNER AS ALWAYS, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT IS IT FOR ME THIS WEEK, PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS.

ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL DIG INTO WHY THE OFTEN OVERLOOKED RACE FOR AUDITOR COULD BE CRUCIAL WHEN IT COMES TO THE FUTURE OF THE STATE GOP PLUS SERAYAH-- WITH FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL LORE ET CETERAA LYNCH ON TRUMP'S LEGAL FATE, WHAT CHANGED AND WHAT HASN'T SINCE THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 07 CLOCK.

I WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.