>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," WITH ANTI-VAXXERS GROWING MORE DEFIANT THAN EVER IN THE FACE OF MANDATES AND VACCINE LIES SPREADING JUST MINUTES AFTER THE DEATH OF COLIN POWELL, WILL WE EVER BE ABLE TO WIN THE WAR ON SCIENCE?

I'M JOINED BY SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN LEADING THE CHARGE ON THE SIDE OF FACT ALL PANDEMIC LONG, CNN CONTRIBUTOR DR. LEANA WEN, WHOSE NEW BOOK IS "LIFELINES: A DOCTOR'S JOURNEY IN THE FIGHT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH."

THEN, LATER, THE NATION'S MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

WITH MORE PEOPLE FEELING THE EFFECTS OF TRAUMA, ANXIETY, STRESS, AND ISOLATION THAN EVER, THE DEMAND FOR THERAPISTS FAR OUTPACES AVAILABILITY.

I'LL TALK TO THE "GLOBE'S" ADVICE COLUMNIST MEREDITH GOLDSTEIN AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION, MARTIN PIERRE, AHEAD.

>> Braude: WITH COVID CASES GENERALLY TRENDING DOWNWARD ACROSS THE COUNTRY, MANY HAVE BEEN BREATHING AT LEAST A SMALL SIGH OF RELIEF.

BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN AMONG THEM.

WHY?

FOR ONE REASON, THE FACT THAT RATES ARE ALREADY RISING AGAIN IN NORTHERN STATES, AS THE COLDER WEATHER SETS IN.

JUST LIKE THEY DID THIS TIME LAST YEAR.

AND TWO, THE DEATH OF FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL, AT AGE 84.

HIS FAMILY SAYS IT WAS COMPLICATIONS FROM COVID-19 THAT KILLED HIM, DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE WAS FULLY VACCINATED AND IT'S THAT LAST FACT THAT WORRIES ME AND OTHERS WHO ACTUALLY TRY TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE, BECAUSE THE ANTI-VAXXERS ARE ALREADY OUT SCREAMING ABOUT HOW "THIS JUST PROVES THE VACCINES DON'T HELP," WHILE IGNORING THE CONDITION THAT WEAKENED HIS IMMUNE SYSTEM AND THAT IT'S THE UNVACCINATED WHO ARE STILL FUELING THE SPREAD OF THIS VIRUS AND KILLING PEOPLE LIKE SECRETARY POWELL.

SO IN AN ATTEMPT TO BUCK THAT TREND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, YESTERDAY WAS THE DEADLINE FOR STATE WORKERS TO EITHER GET VACCINATED OR FACE POSSIBLE FIRING.

BUT AS OF TODAY, MORE THAN 1,500 PEOPLE HAVE NEITHER GOTTEN A SHOT, NOR REQUESTED A WAIVER.

THAT'S ABOUT 4% OF ACTIVE STATE EMPLOYEES, INCLUDING SEVERAL POLICE AND CORRECTIONS OFFICERS.

MEANWHILE, THE F.D.A.

IS STILL WEIGHING VACCINE EXPANSION, WITH FINAL DECISIONS EXPECTED SOON ON SHOTS FOR KIDS FIVE-TO-11 AND BOOSTERS FOR BOTH MODERN AND JOHNSON & JOHNSON.

THE LATTER TWO OF WHICH AN F.D.A.

PANEL APPROVED FRIDAY AND UNLIKE FOR PFIZER AND MODERNA, THE PNEL PUT NO RESTRICTIONS ON WHO CAN AND SHOULD GET THE ADDITIONAL J&J VACCINE.

>> I THINK FRANKLY IT WAS ALWAYS A TWO-DOSE VACCINE.

I THINK IT'S BETTER AS A TWO-DOSE VACCINE.

>> Braude: OF COURSE, THE FULL F.D.A.

ISN'T BOUND BY THAT PANEL'S VOTE.

BUT AS THE EXPERTS KEEP SAYING UNTIL THEY'RE BLUE IN THE FACE, VACCINES ARE THE WAY OUT OF THIS.

THE QUESTION IS: WILL ENOUGH OF US EVER FOLLOW THAT ADVICE?

JOINING ME NOW IS DR. LEANA WEN, FORMER BALTIMORE HEALTH COMMISSIONER, WHO'S BEEN ONE OF THE RELENTLESS VOICES OF REASON THROUGHOUT THIS PANDEMIC, AS A REGULAR CNN AND "WASHINGTON POST" CONTRIBUTOR, AND SHE'S BEEN AMONG THOSE WHO'VE GOTTEN DEATH THREATS FOR HER TROUBLES.

HER NEW BOOK IS "LIFELINES: A DOCTOR'S JOURNEY IN THE FIGHT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH."

DR. WEN, PLEASURE TO MEET YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> I'M GLAD TO JOIN YOU.

I TRAINED AT MASS GENERAL AND BRIGHAM IN BOSTON, SO I FEEL LIKE EVEN THOUGH WE ARE DOING THIS VIA ZOOM THAT I AM COMING HOME.

>> Braude: WELL, WE'RE THRILLED TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE IN BOSTON.

YOU KNOW, I'M FINISHING YOUR BOOK THIS MORNING WHICH IS A POWERFUL ODE TO PUBLIC HEALTH, I WOULD SAIRKS AND WHEN I TAKE A BRIEF BREAK A PICK UP A STORY IN THE NEW YORK TIMES HEADLINES THREATS, RESIGNATIONS AND A HUNDRED NEW LAW WHYS PUBLIC HEALTH IS IN CRISIS AND THEY QUOTE THE LEADER OF SOME NATIONAL PUBLIC HEALTH GROUP SAYING WE ARE A-- ATTACKING AND REMOVING AUTHORITY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO PROTECT US.

SO EVEN IF WE END UP WINNING THIS EFFORT AGAINST COVID, AREN'T WE LOSING BADLY THE EFFORT TO STRENGTHEN PUBLIC HEALTH BECAUSE OF THESE HOMICIDAL GOVERNORS AND LENGTH SLATER-- LEGISLATORS ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

>> IT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

PRIOR TO COVID I THOUGHT THAT THE BIGGEST STRUGGLE WITH PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE REASON WHY I WROTE LIFELINES WAS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

THAT THERE WAS BY DEFINITION NO SPACE FOR PUBLIC HEALTH BECAUSE IT TRK WITHOUTS WHEN WE PREVENTED SOMETHING FROM HAPPENING.

I THOUGHT THE BIGGEST ISSUE WAS MISUNDERSTANDING AND LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT IT IS THE PUBLIC HEALTH DOES.

WELL, I HAVE A DIFFERENT CONCERN NOW THAT WE ARE MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF INTO COVID-19 WHICH IS PUBLIC HEALTH HAS BEEN POLITICIZED, PUBLIC HEALTH AS BEEN PUT INTO THE CENTER OF IDEOLOGICAL CULTURE WARS.

AND HAS NOW BECOME A PARTISAN ISSUE.

THAT IS OBVIOUSLY THE DETRIMENT OF THE ISSUES THAT WE ARE FACING AROUND COVID-19 AND THINGS LIKE MASKING ORVAX NATION HAVE BECOME PARTISAN DIVIDING LINES AND POLARIZING ISSUES INSTEAD OF THE NECESSITIES TO SAVE OUR LIVES.

BUT I'M EVEN MORE WORRIED WITH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF LEGISLATURES THAT HAVE STARTED TO PUTTING IN NEW LAWS TO RESTRICT PUBLIC HEALTH AUTHORITY.

AND THEY MEAN FOR IT TO SPHEFL AFFECT COVID-19.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS MULTIDRUG RESISTANT TUBERCULOSIS, WHAT HAPPENS IF NOW PEOPLE ARE NOT TRUSTING OTHER VACCINES.

AND CHILDHOOD IMMUNIZATIONS CAN ALSO FALL OFF A CLIFF.

I REALLY WORRY ABOUT WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH LOOKS LIKE IN THE YEARS IN THE FUTURE.

AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ARTICLE THAT YOU CITED ACTUALLY SAYS WE ARE LESS PREPARED FOR THE NEXT PANDEMIC THAN WE WERE AT THE BEGINNING OF COVID BECAUSE OF ALL OF THESE NEW THREATS TO PUBLIC HEALTH.

>> IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ALL OF THIS IS MISINFORMATION IN THE MEDIA AND ELSEWHERE, PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND DR. FAUCI AND DR. ZHA AND PEOPLE WITHOUT WORK FOR JOE BIDEN BUT I THINK IT WAS SUSAN CLAUSER WHO TWEETED FOR "THE NEW YORKER" MONTHS AGO THAT BIDEN CAN'T VACCINATE THE PUBLIC AGAINST FOX NEWS.

AND WHEN YOU READ THIS MORNING BEFORE THE DEATH OF COLIN POWELL IS REPORTED THAT JOHN ROBERTS REPORTER THERE SAYS THE FACT THAT COLIN POWELL DIED FROM A BREAKTHROUGH COVID INFECTION RAISES NEW CONCERNS ABOUT HOW EFFECTIVE VACCINES ARE LONG-TERM.

HE HAS SINCE TAKEN IT DOWN AND SAID HE IS PROVACCINE.

THAT IS REALLY A DANGEROUS, DANGEROUS MESSAGE TO SEND, IS IT NOT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE ARE FACING A DUAL PANDEMIC OF SORTS, WE HAVE THE PANDEMIC OF COVID-19 BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE PANDEMIC OF MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION.

OUR SURGEON GENERAL AND DR. VIVEK MURTHY SAID SOMETHING ABOUT HOW DISINFORMATION IS TAKING AWAY PEOPLE'S FREEDOM.

THAT IT IS TAKING AWAY PEOPLE'S FREEDOM TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

HE DECLARED THIS INFORMATION TO BE A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS AND I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

BUT TO THE POINT YOU ARE RAISING, I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US AS WE MOURN THE DEATH OF THE GREAT GENERAL COLIN POWELL, WE SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT HE WAS 84.

BUT HE HAD PARKINSON'S DISEASE, MULTIPLE MILE ONLYA WHICH MADE HIM IMMUNOSUPPRESSED AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE HE WAS MEDICALLY FRAGILE AND ALSO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE IMMUNOSUPPRESSED DO NOT MOUNT THE FULL RESPONSE TO THE VACCINE AS HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS.

WE ALSO HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT VACCINES ARE NOT 100 PERCENT.

AND THAT ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT ARE MEDICALLY FRAIL, THAT IS THE REASON WHY WE NEED EVERYONE TO BE VACCINATED BECAUSE THIS IS THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF HERD IMMUNITY THAT.

VACCINES PROTECT YOU BUT THEY PROTECT EVERYONE WHEN WE ALL ARE VACCINATED AND IN PARTICULAR WE GET VACCINATED TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE AMONG US.

>> Braude: AS YOU KNOW AS WELL AS ANYBODY, THERE ARE AT LEAST 724,000 DEATHS FROM COVID, I'M SURE THE NUMBER IS MUCH HIGHER I WOULD ARGUE, I'M SURE YOU WOULD AGREE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS PREVENTIBLE.

AND YOU WRITE A STORY THAT IS SO MOVING TALKING ABOUT PREVENTIBLE DEATH, ABOUT A LITTLE THIRD GRADE NEIGHBOR, I THINK HIS NAME WAS TONY.

IN YOUR BOOK, COULD YOU TELL THAT STORY.

>> SURE, SO I DID NOT SET OUT WRITING LIFELINES AS A MEMOIR.

ACTUALLY WANTED TO TELL THE STORY OF THE WORK THAT WE DID IN BALTIMORE AND THE INCREDIBLE PEOPLE AT THE BALTIMORE CITY HEALTH DEPARTMENT AND THROUGHOUT THE CITY WHO, AND WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO.

FOR EXAMPLE IN REDUCING INFANT MORTALITY IN OUR CITY BY 38 PERCENT IN SEVEN YEARS.

OR SAVING OVER 3,000 LIVES FROM OPIOID OVERDOSE IN A THREE YEAR PERIOD.

BUT THEN IN WRITING THE STORY OF BALTIMORE AND THE STORY OF PUBLIC HEALTH, MY EDITOR ALSO CONVINCED ME THAT I NEEDED TO WRITE MY OWN STORY TOO.

BECAUSE IN A WAY IT IS ALSO A STORY OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

SO MY PARENTS AND I CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AS IMMIGRANTS.

I CAME TO THE U.S. JUST BEFORE I TURNED 7, OR JUST BEFORE I TURNED 8 FROM CHINA.

AND WE HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE MAKING INDS MEET, EVEN THOUGH MY PARENTS WORKED MULTIPLE JOBS MUCH AT SOME POINT WE WERE LIVING IN AN APARTMENT BLOC WHERE WE HAD A NEIGHBOR, AND THEY HAD A YOUNG BOY WHO WAS JUST A FEW YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME, I THINK I WAS ABOUT 10RBG HE WAS MAYBE 7 OR 8 IT AT THE TIME.

AND ONE DAY I HEARD HIS GRANDMOTHER SCREAMING FOR HELP.

AND I COULD SEE THAT THIS BOY WAS STRUGGLING TO BREATHE.

I HAD ASTHMA MYSELF SO I UNDERSTOOD HOW TERRIFYING IT WAS TO HAVE THAT SENTENCE OF BREATHING IN BUT NOT KNOWING IF YOU CAN BREATHE OUT.

AND YOU JUST DON'T KNOW WHEN, IF YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE A NEXT BREATHE AGAIN.

AND I COULD SEE THAT THERE WAS AN EMPTY INHALER.

I KNEW HE NEEDED HELP.

BUT HIS GRANDMOTHER WAS TOO SCARED TO CALL 911 BECAUSE SHE WAS AFRAID THAT THE IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES WOULD COME.

AND THE FAMILY WAS UNDOCUMENTED AND SHE WAS AFRAID THEY WOULD BE DEPORTED.

BY THE TIME SHE CALLED FOR HELP, IT WAS TOO LATE.

AND THIS YOUNG BOY HAD DIED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

SO I HAD THIS SENSE FROM AN EARLY AGE THAT IN THIS COUNTRY WE DO NOT VALUE HEALTH AND HEALTH CARE TO BE THE FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS THAT THEY ARE.

AND ALSO I HAD THE SENSE THAT WE JUST DON'T VALUE PEOPLE THE SAME WAY.

AND OUR SOCIETY DOES NOT VALUE PEOPLE DEPENDING ON WHO THEY ARE AND WHERE THEY COME FROM AND WHETHER THEY CAN PAY.

AND SO THAT IS WHY I FELT SO STRONGLY ABOUT, IN PARTICULAR, BECOMING AN EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, BECAUSE I NEVER WANTED TO TURN ANYONE AWAY WHO ARE IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

>> Braude: BUT YOU ALSO BASE-- BASED ON SURE YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT LIFE-LINES UNDERSTAND WHAT HEALTH EQUITY OR HEALTH INEQUITY MEANS.

AND FOR SO MANY OF US THAT DON'T DO WHAT YOU DO, IT IS ALWAYS MEANT JUST PROVIDING BETTER, MORE EQUAL HEALTH CARE TO PEOPLE WHO NEED IT BUT AS YOU MAKE CLEAR, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A DECENT PLACE TO LIVE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE DECENT MEALS DURING THE DAY, IF YOU DON'T FEEL SAFE IN YOUR COMMUNITY THEN HAVING THE BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO MAKE YOU A HEALTHY SOUL.

THAT IS ALL BORN OF YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, IS IT NOT, THAWND STANDING?

>> VERY MUCH PORNE OF MY EXPERIENCE AS A CHILD, AS IMMIGRANT BUT ALSO BORN OF MY EXPERIENCE WORKING IN THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, I WROTE ABOUT ANOTHER PATIENT OF MINE, ALSO A CHILD WHO I GOT TO KNOW WELL, AND IT IS NEVER GOOD WHEN YOU KNOW SOMEONE WELL FROM THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM.

BUT THIS WAS A CHILD WHO CAME IN ALL THE TIME WITH ASTHMA.

BUT WHAT HE NEEDED WAS NOT A BETTER INHALER.

WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THAT, HE AND HIS MOTHER WERE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

THEY WERE GOING IN AND OUT OF SHELTERS AND FRIENDS' HOUSES WHERE PEOPLE AROUND THEM SMOKED.

AT SOME POINT THEY LIVED IN A ROW HOUSE SURROUNDED BY VACANT ROW HOUSES WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF MOLD AND THEY WERE ACROSS THE STREET FROM AN INCINERATOR.

SO WHAT WAS MAKING HIM SICK AND WHAT WE COULD DO FROM THE ER, WE COULD TRY TO GIVE HIM BETTER MEDICATIONS, OF COURSE WE DO THAT IF HE CAME IN.

BUT WHAT HE ULTIMATE LEED-- ULTIMATELY NEEDED IS BETTER HOUSING.

BECAUSE HOUSING AS YOU SAID IS ALSO HEALTH CARE.

THE FOOD THAT WE HAVE ACCESS TO.

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO TELL A PATIENT WHO HAS DIABETES AND HEART DISEASE, EAT BETTER FOOD BUT WHAT IF SHE TELLS ME I LIVE FAR AWAY FROM ANYWHERE THAT HAS HEALTHY GROCERIES.

AT MY CORNER STORE, THE CLOSEST THING THAT COMES TO A VEGETABLE IS A DRIED OUT OLD BANANA AND HAVE I TO TAKE TWO BUSES AN WALK TEN BLOCK TOSES GET TO A WHOLE FOODS AND IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE TO AFFORD ANYWAY.

IN BALTIMORE FOR EXAMPLE WHERE I LIVE ONE IN THREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS LIVE IN A GOOD DESERT COMPARED TO ONE IN 12 WHITES.

IN BALTIMORE WE HAVE NEIGHBORHOODS JUST A FEW MILES APART WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL BORN TODAY CAN EXPECT TO LIVE 65 YEARS OR 58 YEARS DEPENDING ON THE ZIP CODE THEY ARE BORN IN.

THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT HEALTH CARE.

YES, I AM AN ER DOC, I BELIEVE IN PROVIDING EXCEPTIONAL HEALTH CARE WHEN PEOPLE NEED IT BUT THERE SAY BROADER DEFINITION OF HEALTH TO WHICH WE MUST ASPIRE INTL.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, DOCTOR, LONG BEFORE I WAS GOING TO SAY THEY BECAME POPULAR, UNFORTUNATELY THEY NEVER BECAME POPULAR.

LONG BEFORE MANDATES WERE BEING PUT IN PLACE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THEM.

YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW WE NEED A BETTER PROOF OF VACCINATION SYSTEM, WE DON'T HAVE ONE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IMPRESSED ME MOST EARLY ON WHEN I SAW YOU ONE NIGHT ON CNN, LONG BEFORE PRESIDENT MACRON DECIDED THAT YOU CAN DO THE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO, BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, HERE IS THE REWARD THAT COMES WITH VACCINATION.

YOU WERE TALK BECOME THAT.

LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY GET THAT THEY WANT FROM VACCINATION.

IS IT AS SIMPLE AS POLITICS BEING THE DIVIDING LINE BETWEEN DOING THE OBVIOUS THAT WILL GET US TO THE PROMISE LAND OR CLOSE AND WHERE WE ARE TODAY?

WELL, I THINK THAT POLITICS AND PARTISANSHIP ARE A PART OF IT.

BUT I THINK THAT THERE IS A DEEPER PROBLEM.

WE KNOW THAT PUBLIC HEALTH DEPENDS ON PUBLIC TRUST.

I MEAN YOU CAN GET THE SCIENCE RIGHT AND OF COURSE I REALLY BELIEVE IN SCIENCE.

OF COURSE I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO BE MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON SCIENCE AND RESEARCH AND DATA BUT JUST GETTING THE SCIENCE RIGHT IS NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT.

I THINK PART OF THE ISSUE HAS BEEN ALSO WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND WITH THE MESSAGING BY MANY INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SO WELL INTENDED AND WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

BUT THE MESSAGING FROM THE BEGINNING WOULDN'T VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE BENEFIT OF VACCINATION.

AND THEN AT A CERTAIN POINT THERE WAS THIS 180.

RECALL BACK IN MAY WHEN THE CDC CAME OUT AND QUITE UNEXPECTEDLY I THINK TO MANY OF US SAID ESSENTIALLY IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, YOU DON'T NEED TO BE WEARING A MASK.

OKAY, THAT WAS FINE EXCEPT THAT THE YOU KNOW -- EXCEPT WITHOUT A PROOF OF VACCINATION THE UNVACCINATED ALSO FELT LIKE THEY HAD FREE REIGN TO GO AROUND MASKLESS AND REMAIN UNVACCINATED.

AND THEN THE MESSAGE BECAME HEY, WHY SHOULD YOU CARE, IF YOU ARE VACCINATED WHY DO YOU CARE IF OTHERS AROUND YOU ARE ALSO VACCINATED TOO.

BUT AS I WROTE IN A "WASHINGTON POST" OP ED THAT I COAUTHORED WITH NEUR SCIENTIST SAM WONG FROM PRINCETON.

WE SHOULD START TO EQUATE REMAINING UNVACCINATED TO DRUNK DRIVING.

BECAUSE IN BOTH CASES IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU.

IT IS YOUR CHOICE IF YOU WANT TO BE INTOKS DATED IN YOUR HOME OR IN A BAR.

BUT IF YOU GET BEHIND A WHEEL OF A CAR AND HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE DANGER AND HARM TO OTHER PEOPLE, THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU ANY MORE.

AND IN THE SAME WAY THE DECISION TO REMAIN UNVACCINATED IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU.

YOU POSE A THREAT TO UNVACCINATED CHILDREN.

I HAVE TWO YOUNG KID, TOO YOUNG TO BE VACCINATED.

YOU POSE A THREAT TO IMMUNOCOMPROMISE PEOPLE WHO DON'T GET THE WHOLE BENEFIT OF THE VACCINE AND TO VACCINATED PEOPLE BY GIVING THEM BREAK THROUGH INFECTIONS.

I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE THIS BETTER SENSE OF WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

AND I THINK THAT IDEA OF CREATING THIS PUBLIC TRUST, I ANY WE ALL NEED TO DO A LOT BETTER JOB OF.

AND I DO FEAR TO SOME EXTENT THAT IT IS TOO LATE TO PUB THE TOOTHPASTE BACK IN THE TUBE.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO THOUGH, YOU ARE HUMAN IN ADDITION TO BEING A COMMITTED DOCTOR, WHEN YOU WALK IN THE ER AND YOU LEARN THAT THE PATIENT YOU HAVE TO CARE FOR SUN VACCINATED, WHAT DO YOU FEEL INSIDE, DOCTOR, I HAVE 30 SECONDS.

>> I AM VERY CONCERNED FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL.

ESPECIALLY AS WE ARE SEEING MORE, FOR EXAMPLE, OF PREGNANT WOMEN WHO ARE NOT VACCINATED.

LOOK, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON HAVE NOT MADE THE CHOICE THAT IS THE RIGHT ONE FOR THEIR HEALTH.

I THINK IT IS INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING FOR US WHO KNOW THE SCIENCE, WHO KNOW THE EVIDENCE, WHO ALSO SEE THE IMPACT ON OTHER PEOPLE BUT MOST OF ALL I'M CONCERNED FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE THEY ARE SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BECOME INFECTED, 11 TIMES FOR LIKELY TO DIRE FROM COVID AND THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN.

>> WELL, YOU ARE A BETTER PERSON THAT I AM BUT THAT WOULD SURPRISE NOBODY.

>> I THANK YOU I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THE BOOK AGAIN IS "LIFELINES: A DOCTOR'S JOURNEY IN THE FIGHT FOR PUBLIC HEALTH."

EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, IT WAS PRETTY HARD TO FIND A MENTAL HEALTH THERAPIST, WITH EVEN THOSE FACING AN URGENT NEED OFTEN ENCOUNTERING LONG WAITS.

A 2018 SURVEY FOUND MORE THAN HALF OF ADULTS LOOKING FOR MENTAL HEALTH CARE IN MASSACHUSETTS HAD TROUBLE GETTING AN APPOINTMENT WHEN THEY NEEDED IT.

AND NOW, 19 MONTHS INTO THE PANDEMIC, IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GET AN APPOINTMENT, EVEN AS PEOPLE NEED THEM NOW MORE THAN EVER TO COPE WITH THE TRAUMAS OF COVID ILLNESSES AND DEATHS AND ISOLATION.

IT'S AN ISSUE THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" MEREDITH GOLDSTEIN DIGS INTO IN ONE OF HER LATEST PIECES.

IN HER REGULAR ADVICE COLUMN, SHE USED TO FREQUENTLY SUGGEST PEOPLE TALK TO A THERAPIST ABOUT THEIR MORE SERIOUS STRUGGLES.

BUT NOW, AS SHE WRITES: "I CAN'T JUST SAY: 'HEY, GO FIND PROFESSIONAL HELP.'

IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE."

AND IT CERTAINLY ISN'T.

MEREDITH GOLDSTEIN JOINS ME NOW ALONG WITH DR. MARTIN PIERRE, THE PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION, CO-OWNER OF ASHMONT COUNSELING ASSOCIATES AND A STAFF PSYCHOLOGIST AT BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY.

DOCTOR, GOOD TO MEET YOU AND MEREDITH, GOOD TO SEE YOU AS ALWAYS.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> PLERNURE.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, CAN I START WITH YOU, HOW BIG IS THE GAP BETWEEN NEED AND AVAILABILITY.

>> IT IS A TREMENDOUS GAP.

PARTICULARLY DURING THIS PANDEMIC CRISIS.

THERE ARE OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF CLIENTS POTENTIAL CLIENTS WHO ARE REACHING OUT FOR MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES.

AND THERE JUST AREN'T ENOUGH PSYCHOLOGISTS TO MEET THIS HIGH DEMAND.

AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY OF AN ISSUE FOR HISTORICALLY UNDERSERVED AND MARGINALIZED POPULATION WHO HAVE NOT SORT OF SOUGHT MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES BECAUSE OF ACCESS AND ALSO DUE TO THE STIGMA-- IT ST A CHALLENGING ISSUE FOR EVERYONE.

>> Braude: AND BY THE WAY, I SHOULD SAY, IT IS NOT JUST PSYCHOLOGISTS, IT IS THERAPISTS, SOCIAL WORKERS, SHRINKS OR PSYCHIATRISTS, AS I KNOW WE CALL THEM.

BASED ON YOUR RESEARCH, WHY DO YOU THINK THE GAP IS AS YAWNING AS IT IS, AS WIDE AS IT IS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW IT IS SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

ST A CONFLUENCE OF ALL OF THIS TRAUMA THAT PEOPLE HAVE FACED FROM A PANDEMIC, BUT ALSO I THINK ACTUALLY IF I AM TO SPIN A POSITIVE, SOME OF THAT STIGMA WENT AWAY FOR CERTAIN COMMUNITIES.

AND JUST THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT LOSS MADE A FEW PEOPLE EVEN IN MY LIFE SAY OKAY, ACTUALLY, MAYBE I WILL SEEK OUT SOME MENTAL HEALTH ASSISTANCE.

AND OF COURSE THEN THEY MADE THE PHONE CALL AND FOUND NO ONE AVAILABLE.

SO I THINK IT IS SORT OF THIS, SUPPLY DEMAND, IT IS THE TIME AND YOU KNOW, SINCE THOSE PIECES RUN, I HAVE RECEIVED DOZENS OF EMAILS FROM EXHAUSTED MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS WHO SAY THEY WISH THEY HAD MORE HOURS IN THE DAY, THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE EXPERIENCING THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA WE ARE ALL EXPERIENCING.

AND IT IS NOT EASY TO BE-- TO DO THIS KIND OF WORK AND ALSO TO KEEP TRACK OF PEOPLE'S INSURANCE CLAIMS AND SO AT JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT WHERE THEY WANT TO ADD MORE HOURS TO THE DAY, THEY REALLY CAN'T.

>> AND YOU KNOW, ONE THING DOCTOR, MEREDITH POINTS OUT IN HER COLUME, MORE GOOD NEWS JUST LIKE THE STIGMA BEING MILDLY REDUCED FOR SOME, IS THE USE OF TELE HEALTH HAS GONE UP, SO THE GOOD NEWS IS YOU HAVE BETTER ACCESS IN THEORY TO SOMEONE WHO CAN DEAL WITH YOUR MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS.

THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAVE ACCESS BUT NO ONE IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SCREEN, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS ONE OF THE SMOOS.

ANOTHER ISSUE IS BEING ABLE TO ACCESS WI-FI AND BROADBAND FOR THOSE UNDERSERVED POPULATIONS, AND FOR THE OLDER POPULATIONS, JUST BEING ABLE TO USE TECHNOLOGY IS A CHEAJ AS WELL WITHIN DOCTOR, THIS MAY BE A PATH ETICALLY NAIVE USELESS QUESTION WHICH I KNOW IS A HELL OF AN INTRODUCTION BUT YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN TOLD FOR YEARS BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WE'VE GOT TO START TREATING AS A SOCIETY MENTAL ILLNESS ISSUES THE SAME AS PHYSICAL ILLNESS ISSUES.

BUT AS EITHER MEREDITH WROTE OR SOMEBODY ELSE WROTE, IF SOMEONE GOES INTO A DOCTOR, AN ER FOR EXAMPLE AND SAYS I'VE GOT CANCER OR A HEART ATTACK OR SOMETHING, WE DON'T SAY STORY, WE DON'T HAVE STAFF, GO HOME CALL ME BACK IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS OR CALL SOMEBODY ELSE.

SO WHY DOES MENTAL HEALTH CONTINUE TO GET SUCH SECOND CLASS TREATMENT?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES ARE THE PARODY ISSUES THAT EXISES.

THE COMPLEXITY OF INSURANCE COMPANIES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE SOMETHING CALLED CUTOUT SERVICES IN WHICH INSURANCE PROVIDERS DO NOT BILL DIRECTLY BUT THEY OUTSOURCE TO A THIRD PARTY COMPANY.

AND IT CREATES THIS SORT OF GATEKEEPER AND COMPLEXITY IN TERMS OF WHICH SAY MEDICALLY NECESSARY TATED MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE.

AND SO IT CREATES A CHALLENGE FOR MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDERS.

SOME MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDERS HAVE DECIDED TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES BY JUST SIMPLY NOT ASSESSING ANY INSURANCE BECAUSE OF CHALLENGES THAT EXIST WITH THOSE ISSUES.

>> I HAVE TO SAY-- AND ALSO THE LOWER REREIMBURSEMENT RATES AS COMPARED TO THE MEDICAL PROFESSION, IS VERY LOW AND WE DON'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF OVERHEAD.

AND SO WITH THE REIMBURSEMENTS IT MAKES THAT CHALLENGE EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE.

>> AND YOU ARE ENCOUNTERING THAT TOO, ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WRITE YOU FOR ADVICE, ARE YOU NOT?

THE SHRINK I FINALLY FOUND, PSYCHOLOGIST I FINALLY FOUND DOESN'T TAKE INSURANCE.

SADLY IN MANY CASES FOR PRETTY GOOD REASONS, MEREDITH.

>> FOR REALLY GOOD REASONS.

AND THE TIME THEY SPEND CHASING THE MONEY THEY ARE OWED, THE TIME THEY MIGHT BE LAG ELLING WITH ONE INSURANCE COMPANY TO COVER SOMEBODY OUT OF NETWORK, I MEAN I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY MANY MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS ARE SAYING I WOULD RATHER JUST BYPASS THE SYSTEM AND WORK ON A SLIDING RATE.

IF I AM GOING TO GET LESS I WOULD RATHER WORK WITH MY OWN RATES WITH COMMUNITIES.

BUT YOU KNOW, AND THIS IS ASSUMING YOU CAN FIND SOMEONE, BY THE WAY.

RIGHT LIKE ONE OF THE THINGS I MENTIONED IN THE STORY IS SOME OF THE NUMBERS THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES OR DIRECTORIES MIGHT GIVE YOU FOR A THERAPIST MIGHT GO NOWHERE AT THIS POINT.

THERE IS NO, WHAT IS THE CLEARING HOUSE FOR HOW WE FIND THESE SERVICES, AND THAT IS A COMPLICATED QUESTION TOO.

>> YOU KNOW DOCTOR, WE LEARNED THROUGH THIS PANDEMIC, I KNOW IT IS NOT NEWS TO YOU AS I READ GROWING UP IN TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO AND THEN ON TO ABOUT KRVMENT, WE TALKED ABOUT ISOLATION, ALIENATION YOU EXPERIENCED YOURSELF AS A STUDENT OF COLOR.

WHAT ALSO HAPPENS THIS PAST YEAR WAS THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD WHICH OBVIOUSLY CREATES EVEN AN EXTRA BURDEN PARTICULARLY ON PEOPLE OF COVERED.

JENNAE BRILLIANT COLLEAGUE OF MEREDITH GOLDSTEIN WAS WITH ME ON THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE KILLING OF FLOYD, HERE IS SOMETHING SHE HAD TO SAY.

>> MY YEAR LAS BEEN LIKE A LOT OF US, WE'RE JUST EXHAUSTED.

AND WEARY AND HEARTBROKEN.

AND I THINK IT IS LIKE YOU ARE WRESTLING TO DEEP THE FAITH.

AND IT IS JUST, IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE OF TIRED.

>> BUT YOU KNOW DOCTOR, WE HAVE TALKED A LOT OF US HAVE TALKED NOT JUST PEOPLE IN THE PROFESSION LIKE YOU, ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THIS LAST YEAR AND A HALF, TIBLGLY ON PEOPLE OF COLOR, POOR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME WE ARE DOING A LOT MORE TALK AND A LOT LESS WALK.

WE ARE NOT DOING MUCH ABOUT IT EXCEPT TALKING ABOUT HOW GREAT THE DISPARITIES ARE, ARE WE?

>> ORRECT.

I THINK IT'S A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON ONE'S PSYCHOLOGICAL WELL-BEING.

AND BECAUSE THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE ACCESS OF CARE TO PROVIDE THESE SERVICES, I THINK WE NEED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM, PARTICULARLY GIVEN A STENGS TO THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AS IT RELATES TO ACCESS AND AS IT RELATES TO COMPETENCY ISSUES.

SO I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTHS ARE WHEN IT COMES TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.

>> SO MEREDITH, I KNOW HOW MUCH PEOPLE WHO WRITE YOU DEPEND UPON YOUR ADVICE.

YOU GOT TO GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SAY I'M A JOURNALIST, I'M NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST, WHATEVER.

SO WHAT ARE YOU TELLING THEM IN OCTOBER OF 2021 WHEN THEY SAY HELP, I NEED HELP, AND IT'S NOT THE KIND OF HELP YOU CAN PROVIDE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

>> I MEAN SO MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID WELL, GO FIND THERAPY, RIGHT, AND THAT IS NOT SO EASY TO DO, AND DR. PIERRE WAS NICE ENOUGH TO HELP ME WITH TIPS, LIKE GROUP THERAPY THERE ARE WORK AROUND, ONE OF THE WONDERFUL TIPS WEENS JUST CALL AN INSURANCE COMPANY AND DOCTORS TO GET THE CARE CAN BE TAXES.

SO TO GET YOUR NETWORK OF PEOPLE TOGETHER I AM PERSONALLY GREAT AT CALLING INSURANCE COMPANIES FOR OTHER PEOPLE, HAPPY TO DO THAT FOR FRIENDS AND FAMILY RIGHT.

SO IT TAKE THE COMMUNITY TO GET THE CARE YOU NEED, TO CALL UPON THOSE SOURCES AND EVEN JUST TO TELL, SEEING A DOCTOR, YOUR OWN PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN IF YOU HAVE ONE TO SAY HELP ME FIND THESE SERVICES.

I THINK GETTING HELP REQUIRES ASKING A LOT OF PEOPLE FOR HELP UNFORTUNATELY THESE DAYS BUT PEOPLE ARE MORE OPEN.

SO I AM CERTAINLY DOING THAT.

AND WHAT I COMMITTED TO IN THIS COLUME THAT I WROTE IS TO CALL ON SOME OF THESE PROFESSIONALS MYSELF.

ADVICE COLUMIST SHOULD BE ENTERTAINMENT AND GROUP THERAPY THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL THERAPY BUT WHAT CAN I DO IN MY SORT OF MORE PASSIVE COLUME THAT IS MUCH, YOU KNOW, IN THE SPIRIT OF ANN LANDERS, WHAT CAN I DO TO GET YOU THE HELP ARE YOU NOT GETTING AND SO MANY WONDERFULLY QUALIFIED MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS EMAILED ME JUST THIS MORNING TO SAY GIVE ME A CALL.

I CAN'T DIAGNOSE ANYBODY OVER A LETTER BUT I AM HAPPY TO HELP.

>> SO DR. PIERRE, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING PEOPLE AND ON YOUR LIST OF WHAT YOU TELL THEM, DOES IT INCLUDE ACCESSING SOME OF THESE RELATIVELY NEW ONLINE SERVICES WE SEE ALL OVER TV?

WAY, SO WHAT I SAY TO THEM IS TO HAVE YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS CALL.

I TELL THEM TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF GROUP PSYCHOTHERAPY APP ALSO LOOKING INTO FAITH-BASED COUNSELING AS WELL.

SO REACHING OUT TO THE PASTORAL COUNSELORS AND PASTORS AND SO FORTH.

AND SO WHAT I ALSO ADVISE IS ENGAGING IN PSYCHO EDUCATIONAL GROUPS.

I RUN THESE GROUPS BECAUSE CAN I GET MORE INVOLVED, MORE VOLUME AND MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN PSYCHO EDUCATIONAL GROUP VERSUS ONE-ON-ONE THERAPY.

>> DR. PIERRE, THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE AND TIME.

MEREDITH, TERRIFIC COLUME, GOOD TO SEE YOU AS WELL, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> YOU TOO.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, FORMER GOVERNOR AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE DEVAL PATRICK JOINS ME ON HIS NEWEST PUSH TO EMPOWER GRASSROOTS POLITICAL ACTIVISTS AHEAD OF THE 2022 MIDTERMS, THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION TO UPHOLD QUALIFIED IMMUNITY FOR POLICE AND MORE.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org