GAUTAM: I AM GAUTAM MUKUNDA.

TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON, WITH THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS KILLED SO FAR IN THE LATEST WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, WE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THE ETHICS AND LAWS THAT GOVERN ARMED CONFLICTS.

PLUS, AS THE WAR IN ISRAEL AND GAZA RAGES ON, SO DOES MISINFORMATION ABOUT IT.

FOUNDER OF THE GROUND TRUTH PROJECT, CHARLIE SENNOTT, JOINS ME ON HOW THESE LIES SPREAD AND HOW WE CAN FIGHT THEM.

AFTER LANDING FOR AN HISTORIC AND COMPLICATED TRIP TO ISRAEL, PRESIDENT BIDEN PLEDGED AMERICA'’S FULL UNWAVERING SUPPORT FOR THE COUNTRY AND ANNOUNCED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN NEW AID.

BUT HE ALSO CAUTIONED ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AGAINST UNJUST RETALIATION.

>> JUSTICE MUST BE DONE.

BUT I CAUTIONED THIS.

WHILE YOU FEEL THAT RAGE, DO NOT BE CONSUMED BY.

AFTER 9/11 WE WERE ENRAGED IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND WHILE WEEK SOUGHT JUSTICE AND GOT JUSTICE, WE ALSO MADE MISTAKES.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS.

HAMAS DOES NOT REPRESENT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

GAUTAM: MORE THAN 1400 ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED, MOSTLY CIVILIANS WHO WERE MURDERED IN THE OCTOBER 7 HAMAS ATTACK.

ACCORDING TO THE U.N., AN ESTIMATED 4200 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA, ALSO MOSTLY CIVILIANS, INCLUDING MANY CHILDREN, JOURNALISTS, AND MEDICAL STAFF.

THE FIRST RULE OF JUST WAR IS TO AVOID KILLING INNOCENTS.

BUT BEYOND THAT, WHAT ARE THE LAWS OF WAR, AND HOW CAN BE THE -- AND HOW CAN THEY BE APPLIED AND ENFORCED IN THIS CONFLICT?

TO DISCUSS, I AM JOINED BY FATHER BRYAN HEHIR, WHO PREVIOUSLY TAUGHT AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY.

AND TOM DANNENBAUM, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND CODIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW AND GOVERNANCE AT TUFTS.

FATHER, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

WHAT ARE THE OBLIGATIONS THAT INTERNATIONAL LAW PUTS ON COMBATANTS IN THIS KIND OF WAR?

BRYAN: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO FRY MET -- FRAME IT IS WHAT THE MORAL OBLIGATIONS ARE.

BECAUSE MY PARTNER IN DIALOGUE WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH THE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

SO, THE MORAL THEORY ABOUT THE USE OF FORCE, ESSENTIALLY, ARGUES THAT SOME USES OF FORCE BY THE STATE TO PROTECT ITS POPULATION AND TERRITORY IS LEGITIMATE.

BUT THE QUESTION OF WHAT KIND OF FORCE, FOR WHAT PURPOSE, AND BY WHAT METHODS, THEN SPIN OUT FROM THERE.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU TAKE THE MORAL ARGUMENT ABOUT THE USE OF FORCE, THAT THEORY GIVES YOU THE BASIS TO CONDEMN THE ATTACK BY HAMAS AS MORALLY, HUMANLY, AND LEGALLY WRONG.

BUT THAT THEORY IS ALSO GOING TO JUDGE HOW ISRAEL RESPONDS TO THIS ATTACK.

AND, AS YOU SAID, AT THE HEART OF THE ARGUMENT ABOUT METHODS OF USE OF FORCE, THE DIRECTLY INTENDED KILLING OF CIVILIANS IS ALWAYS WRONG.

CIVILIANS MAY DIE IN A LEGITIMATE ATTACK, BUT THE DIRECTLY INTENDED TARGETING OF CIVILIANS IS ALWAYS WRONG.

AND EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT TARGETING CIVILIANS, THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THE ACT CAN BE UNJUST IF IT IS DISPROPORTIONATE IN TERMS OF THE DAMAGE THAT IT DOES.

SO, PURPOSE, METHOD, INTENTION DON'’T DIRECTLY TEND TO KILL CIVILIANS, ALWAYS WRONG, AND USE PROPORTIONATE FORCE TO EFFECTIVELY SUPPRESS INJUSTICE.

GAUTAM: TOM, IF THAT IS THE MORAL STANDARDS, THEN LAW IS HOW WE TRY AND CODIFY THOSE MORAL STANDARDS.

HOW DOES INTERNATIONAL LAW TRY AND CONSTRAIN THIS KIND OF WARFARE, AND HOW IS IT ENFORCED, IF AT ALL?

TOM: THE FIRST THING TO SAY IS ONE OF THE KEY PREMISES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW IS TO SEPARATE TWO LEGAL QUESTIONS.

ONE IS THE RESULT OF FORCE IN THE FIRST PLACE, ESSENTIALLY WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO WAR.

AND THE OTHER IS CONDUCT ONCE WE ARE IN A WAR.

THOSE TWO ARE NOT JUST SEPARATE, BUT INDEPENDENT FROM ONE ANOTHER.

THE RULES GOVERNING FROM HOW TO FIGHT ARE HELD COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT FROM THE CAUSE FOR WHICH EITHER PARTY IS FIGHTING.

HAND APPLIED TO BOTH EQUALLY, AND APPLY TO BOTH EVEN IF THE OTHER VIOLATES.

SOME OF THE KEEPER AND SUPPOSE ARE TWO ENGLISH BETWEEN CIVILIANS AND MILITARY OBJECTIVES, TO DIRECT -- TO TAKE FEASIBLE PRECAUTIONS TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN HARM, AND TO NOT ENGAGE IN AN ATTACK WHEN THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE WOULD BE DISPROPORTIONATE, WHICH IS TO SAY EXCESSIVE IN RELATION TO THE CONCRETE AND DIRECT MILITARY ADVANTAGE FOR DISSIPATIVE.

IN TERMS OF -- ANTICIPATES IT.

ONE OF THE MOST -- INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS JURISDICTION OVER ANY AND ALL CRIMES PERPETRATED ON THE TERRITORY OF PALESTINE, AS THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT UNDERSTANDS IT, WHICH CLEARLY INCLUDES GAZA.

AND ALSO ANY WAR CRIMES PERPETRATED BY NATIONALS OF PALESTINE, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE ACTIONS ON ISRAELI TERRITORY BY PALESTINIAN NATIONALS.

GAUTAM: THERE IS A KEY POINT BOTH OF YOU AGREE ON, ALTHOUGH I WANT TO EMPHASIZE IT.

IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU BOTH CORRECTLY, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW PROVOKED YOU ARE.

THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY TAKING RETALIATORY, OR EVEN LESS RETALIATORY ACTIONS THAT ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE PRINCIPLES YOU LAID OUT.

TOM: IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE RULES.

BRYAN: AND THERE IS REALLY AN OVERLAP BETWEEN LAW AND MORALITY.

NOT IDENTITY, IF YOU PLAY THEM OUT FULLY, BUT THE OVERLAP.

AND THE OVERLAP ON THE DIRECTLY INTENDED KILLING OF CIVILIANS, I WOULD SAY, IS PRETTY MUCH ABSOLUTE.

WE ARE IN THE SAME PLACE ON THAT.

BUT THEN THE QUESTION BECOMES ONCE YOU HAVE, QUOTE, RULED OUT THE DIRECTLY INTENDED KILLING OF CIVILIANS, IS THERE ANYTHING LEFT THAT IS TO GOVERN IT?

PROPORTIONALITY IS ONE THING.

INTENTIONALITY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.

BY INTENTION I MEAN, WHAT IS THE LOGIC THAT DRIVES THE POLICY?

SO, IF ONE JUST SORT OF JUST CLASSIFIES A WHOLE AREA AS A TARGET AREA AND IT IS A MIX OF CIVILIANS AND NON-CIVILIANS, YOU HAVE THE WRONG INTENTION.

YOUR INTENTION HAS GOT TO BE TO DEAL WITH THOSE WHO HAVE PROVIDED HARM.

HAMAS QUALIFIES FOR THAT.

HAMAS HAS ITS MILITARY FORCE.

HAMAS ITSELF IS A FAIRLY COMPLEX REALITY.

IT IS A MILITARY FORCE, A POLITICAL REALITY, AND A SOCIAL REALITY.

AND SO IT IS WOVEN THROUGH THE SOCIETY.

IT PROVIDES A VERY SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGE FOR ISRAEL TO DO WHAT IT LEGITIMATELY HAS A RIGHT TO DO, WHICH IS TO SEEK TO PREVENT ANYTHING LIKE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

BUT DOING THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE SIMPLE.

TOM: THE LAW CODIFIES SOME OF THOSE SAME PRINCIPLES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE PRESENCE OF COMBATANTS WITHIN A CIVILIAN POPULATION WHERE THAT POPULATION IS, ON AGGREGATE, CIVILIANS.

AND CLEARLY THE POPULATION OF GAZA AS A WHOLE IS A CIVILIAN POPULATION.

IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE CIVILIAN CHARACTER OF THAT POPULATION.

ANY MILITARY OPERATION TARGETED AT THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE, SUCH AS IN A TOTAL SIEGE ON THAT POPULATION, IS AN OPERATION THAT IS TARGETED AT A CIVILIAN POPULATION, AND THEREFORE IMPLICATES LAW OF WAR VIOLATIONS.

GAUTAM: BUT TO PUSH ON THIS, SO, IF YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE IDF, WHAT YOU WOULD SAY IS WE ARE FIGHTING PEOPLE WHO DON'’T WEAR UNIFORMS, WHO ARE MIXED INTO A POPULATION, 2.2 MILLION PEOPLE, ABOUT THE SAME POPULATION DENSITY OF NEW YORK CITY.

ESSENTIALLY, I THINK IF I WERE TO THINK WHAT THEY WOULD SAY, THEY WOULD SAY THERE IS NO ACTION WE COULD TAKE THAT WOULD NOT HARM CIVILIANS.

SO WHAT WOULD YOU COUNSEL THEM THAT THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO?

WHAT ARE THE LIMITS THEY SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT?

BRYAN: I THINK THE IDENTIFICATION OF HAMAS AS ITS MILITARY COMPONENT IS MORE AND MORE TRYING TO IDENTIFY SPECIFICALLY.

BECAUSE IT HAS PROVIDED A MASSIVE, MASSIVE MORAL INJUSTICE THAT NEEDS TO BE SET RIGHT.

SO, THAT'’S NOT WRONG TO SEEK TO SUPPRESS THAT, BOTH IN THE PRESENT AND IN THE FUTURE.

BUT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT SECRETARY BLINKEN'’S ADVICE TO THEM WAS -- TO ISRAEL WAS, YOU MUST WIN, BUT THE QUESTION OF HOW YOU WIN MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

AND WHAT COMES INTO PLAY NOT JUST FOR ISRAEL BUT FOR ANY STATE IS THE QUESTION OF LEGITIMACY IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WATCHING.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO INDICATE THAT THE UNITED STATES FACED THIS PROBLEM, AND DID NOT FACE IT VERY WELL IN PARTS OF WORLD WAR II.

OBLITERATION BOMBING IN EUROPE.

WE HAD A PERFECT, JUST BECAUSE TO PREVENT THE NAZI DOMINATION OF EUROPE.

WE DID NOT HAVE A JUST CAUSE TO DO OBLITERATION BOMBING THROUGHOUT THE CITY, WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE THE MIX OF CIVILIANS AND COMBATANTS JOINED TIGHTLY.

TOM: I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS.

ONE IS ON THAT KIND OF ATTACK, THE LAW HAS DEVELOPED SIGNIFICANTLY SINCE WORLD WAR II.

SINCE SOME OF THOSE ATTACKS AT THAT TIME WERE OPEN TO LEGAL QUESTION, THEY WOULD CLEARLY BE UNLAWFUL TODAY AS INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS, OR ALTERNATIVELY ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN POPULATIONS DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT.

THE SECOND THING IS, WITH RESPECT TO THE DIFFICULTY OF TARGETING HAMAS FIGHTERS, THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A COMPLICATION THAT THE IDF FACES.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THE PROTECTIONS FOR HUMAN BEINGS.

THOSE HUMAN BEINGS HERE ARE, IN THE CONTEXT OF IDF ATTACKS ON HAMAS TARGETS, THE CIVILIANS OF GAZA.

AND WHAT OUGHT NOT BE THE CASE IS THAT A VIOLATION BY HAMAS FIGHTERS EITHER OF THE PROHIBITION ON USING HUMAN SHIELDS OR THE PROHIBITION OF A PHIDIAS KILLING WHERE THEY ARE PRESENTING AS CIVILIANS IN ORDER TO FACILITATE THEIR ACTIVITY, IS A HARM TO THE CIVILIANS OF GAZA AS WELL AS A HARM TO THE IDF.

AND THE IDF SHOULD NOT BE UNRESTRAINED FROM ITS OBLIGATIONS VIS-A-VIS THOSE CIVILIANS, SIMPLY BECAUSE THE CIVILIANS THEMSELVES HAVE BEEN A VICTIM OF THE VIOLATION BY HAMAS OF USING HUMAN SHIELDS OR OTHERWISE ENDANGERING THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

SO THE KEY THING IS NOT TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT THE PREDICTIONS ARE FOR THEM, AND THEY ARE NOT THE ONES WHO ARE ENGAGED IN THE VIOLATION TO WHICH THIS IS A RESPONSE.

BRYAN: I THINK A POINT TO BE MADE IN THIS DISCUSSION IS THE JOURNEY FROM WORLD WAR II UNTIL TODAY.

CIVILIANS WERE TARGETED AND KILLED ON ALL SIDES IN WORLD WAR II.

AND IT DID NOT CREATE A GREAT OF WAR -- UPROAR AROUND THAT FACT.

TODAY, THE TARGETING OF CIVILIANS BECOMES A MAJOR ISSUE IN THIS VERY TRAGIC CONFLICT THAT IS INTERESTING IN ITSELF.

THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC UNDERSTANDS THIS DISCOURSE, I THINK, IN GENERAL TERMS, IN A WAY THAT WAS NOT THE CASE IN WORLD WAR II.

GAUTAM: SO, HOW THEN, IN A CONFLICT IN WHICH THE INITIAL BLOWS, AT LEAST OF THIS GO AROUND, HAD NO LIMITATIONS ABOUT ETHICS OR INTERNATIONAL LAW.

I SUSPECT A PUSHBACK PRESIDENT BIDEN GOT WHEN HE SAID -- YOU ARE RESTRAINING US BUT NOT OUR ENEMIES.

WHAT WOULD YOU TELL BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IF YOU HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK WITH HIM ABOUT WHY HE SHOULD LISTEN TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID?

TOM: EVERYBODY THINKS THAT THEIR SIDE IS IN THE RIGHT.

EVERYBODY OVER INDEXES ON THE VIOLATIONS OF THE ADVERSARY.

AND SO, TO SEE VIOLATIONS BY THE ADVERSARY AS A BASIS FOR ACTING WITHOUT RESTRAINT AND RESPONSE IS A PATH TO TOTAL WAR ON BOTH SIDES.

BRYAN: YEAH.

I THINK THE QUESTION OF LEGITIMACY FITS IN HERE.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY LEGITIMACY IS NOT ONLY LEGAL LEGITIMACY OR MORAL LEGITIMACY, BUT LEGITIMACY IN THE MIND OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OUT OF THIS CONFLICT.

AND WHAT I WOULD SAY TO MR. NETANYAHU IF I HAD THE CHANCE, WHICH I NEVER WILL, IS TO SAY, KEEP IN MIND THAT NOT ONLY THE OBJECTIVE YOU SEEK IS LEGITIMATE, BUT THE WAY YOU DO IT CAN INFLUENCE IN THE MIND OF A WIDER GENERAL PUBLIC WHAT'’S AT STAKE.

NOW, WE CANNOT EVEN TALK TO HAMAS ABOUT THAT.

THEY WOULD NOT BE MUCH SENSE STRONG -- SINCE TALKING TO HAMAS ABOUT THAT.

PRECISELY BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY PROFESS AND HAVE PROFESSED FOR A LONG TIME, THAT THEY ABIDE BY THESE RULES.

HE HAS TO THINK NOT ONLY ABOUT THE OBJECTIVE, I THINK, BUT ALSO THE METHOD, AND THEN THE CONSEQUENCES AS THIS IS PERCEIVED IN THE WIDER NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

GAUTAM: THANK YOU.

BRYAN AND TOM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IN THE FOG OF WAR, SOCIAL MEDIA CAN SPREAD IMPORTANT UPDATES ABOUT THE VIOLENCE, AND THE PEOPLE CAUGHT UP IN IT.

BUT AS WE HAVE ALREADY BEGUN TO SEE IN THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, IT CAN SPREAD DANGEROUS MISINFORMATION TOO.

TAKE THE EXPLOSION AT A HOSPITAL IN GAZA CITY YESTERDAY, WHICH PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS BLAMED ON AN ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE, A STORY WHICH SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

BUT ISRAEL BLAMED A FAILED ROCKET LAUNCH BY PALESTINIAN JIHAD, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN BACKS UP ISRAEL'’S CLAIMS.

SO HOW CAN WE -- CHARLIE, YOU REPORTED FOR THE MIDDLE EAST FOR MANY YEARS.

TELL US WHAT IT IS LIKE TO REPORT A FAST BREAKING NEWS STORY LIKE THIS ONE IN THE REGION.

CHARLIE: YOU KNOW, I THINK THE TRUTH IS HARD WORK.

TO GET THE TRUTH ON THE GROUND AMID THE TENSIONS, THE VIOLENCE, THE EMOTIONS THAT ARE RUNNING SO HIGH, IN ISRAEL OF COURSE AND OF COURSE ALSO IN GAZA.

ALL I CAN SAY IS IT'’S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

THE FAMOUS AXIOM OF WAR THAT THE FIRST CASUALTY OF WAR IS THE TRUTH, REALLY FEELS RELEVANT IN THESE VERY MOMENTS.

AND I WOULD TELL YOU, I REMEMBER BEING A REPORTER THERE, I WAS BASS THERE FOR THE BOSTON GLOBE FOR MANY YEARS.

AND WHEN YOU ARE ON THE SEAM OF A BOMBING -- ON THE SCENE OF A BOMBING, THE EMOTION AND THIS INCREDIBLE SENSE OF THE LOSS OF INNOCENT LIVES IS REALLY HEAVY.

I WILL NEVER FORGET THE FIRST DAY I ARRIVED AT WORK IN JERUSALEM IN 1997.

IT WAS ONE OF THE BIG BUS BOMBINGS IN THE MARKETS.

THE FIRST IMAGE I EVER SAW WAS THE HAND OF A YOUNG GIRL WITH BLUE NAIL POLISH UNDERNEATH A PARTIAL TARP.

SHE HAD JUST BEEN COVERED UP.

SHE WAS GONE, SHE WAS DEAD.

AND THE REMNANTS OF THE BLAST WERE JUST THERE, IT WAS VERY IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH, WALKING ON CRUSHED GLASS.

YOU FEEL IT.

IT IS VERY INTENSE.

IT IS VERY HARD TO GET AT WHAT IS ACCURATE.

BUT EVENTUALLY WHAT WE LEARNED WAS THAT WAS A HAMAS BOMBING.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE REALLY BIG BUS BOMBINGS.

AND I THINK ABOUT THAT, I THINK ABOUT WHAT HAMAS HAS BECOME, WHERE THAT ALL WENT, HOW THE PEACE PROCESS FROM THE SH -- FELL APART.

THESE INCREDIBLE SHARDS IN THIS SCENE OF THIS HORRIFIC TERRORIST, OR ACCIDENTAL -- WE WILL FIND OUT -- STRIKE AT THE HOSPITAL IS ALMOST UNFATHOMABLE TO IMAGINE.

SO OF COURSE I FEEL FOR EVERYONE, THE KILLED, THOSE WHO ARE THERE.

I ALSO REALLY FEEL FOR THE JOURNALIST ON THE GROUND AND THE PRESSURE AND ATTENTION TO GET IT RIGHT.

I KNOW THERE ARE REALLY GOOD JOURNALISTS ON THE GROUND THEY ARE TRYING TO GET IT RIGHT.

GAUTAM: SO FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

AS WE THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THIS STORY, SOMETHING CLEARLY WENT VERY WRONG.

WITH A VIRAL CLAIM ABOUT 500 CASUALTIES GOING AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN WALKED BACK.

WE NOW DON'’T HAVE A NUMBER, ALTHOUGH THE EVIDENCE SEEMS TO BE LEANING TOWARDS A MISFIRED MISSILE.

TO THE EXTENT THAT WE KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK WENT WRONG HERE?

CHARLIE: WE DON'’T KNOW.

THAT IS THE BIGGEST THING I COULD COVERING THE MIDDLE EAST.

YOU DON'’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'’T KNOW UNTIL YOU KNOW IT.

IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THIS IT WAS BLAMED ON ISRAEL.

I'’M INTERESTED U.S. OFFICIALS KEEP CALLING THIS PRELIMINARY.

WE NEED TO HEAR THAT AND THINK ABOUT THAT.

BUT OVERHEAD IMAGERY, OPEN SOURCE AND INTERCEPTS WOULD INDICATE THIS IS INDEED AN ACCIDENTAL STRIKE BY ISLAMIC JIHAD.

THEY WERE LAUNCHING A ROCKET, THE ROCKET MISFIRED, IT CAME DOWN INTO A PLACE THEY DID NOT INTEND IT TO, WHICH APPEARS TO BE THE PARKING LOT OF THE HOSPITAL.

AND THAT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF DEATHS, A LOT OF INJURIES, AND WE DON'’T KNOW THE NUMBER.

BUT THAT SEEMS TO BE WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT I GUESS IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU LEARN COVERING THE MIDDLE EAST, KEEP WORKING HARD, KEEP STAYING RIGHT ON IT, STAY ON THE GROUND, KEEP TRYING TO DIG FOR WHAT YOU KNOW, AND ONLY REPORT WHAT YOU KNOW.

GAUTAM: I MEAN, I HOPE THAT THAT IS GUIDANCE, AND OBVIOUSLY WE HAD A HEARING WHERE A SUMMIT THAT WAS MEANT TO GET HUMANITARIAN RELIEF TO THE PALESTINIANS WAS CANCELED BECAUSE OF THE REPORTS.

LET ME BUILD ON THIS LAST SET OF QUESTIONS.

WHEN THE STAKES ARE THIS HIGH, AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN ALL THE EYES OF THE WORLD, ALL THE COMMERCIAL INCENTIVES ARE IN GO FOR CLICKS, THERE HAS TO BE IN A NUMEROUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE TO GET THE STORY FIRST.

WHEN THE COST OF GETTING IT WRONG MIGHT BE PAID FAR DOWN THE LINE.

WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION TO REPORTERS ABOUT HOW TO PUSH BACK AGAINST GETTING THE EYES, BUT DO YOUR JOB AND GET THE STORY RIGHT?

CHARLIE: WE HAVE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE MACHINE AND ALL THE ALGORITHMS THAT WANT TO DRIVE US TO GO FASTER AND FASTER.

THIS IS AN ANCIENT ACTS -- AXIOM OF WAR FROM ANCIENT GREECE THAT SAID FIRST CASUALTY OF WAR IS THE TRUTH.

THE THING THAT MIX IT FEELS SO MUCH WORSE NOW IS THE VERACITY.

JUST HOW THE VELOCITY AND VORACIOUS NEST OF LIES NOW MOVE AT AND CALCULABLE SPEEDS.

WE HAVE NEVER HAD IT LIKE THIS BEFORE.

WE'’RE ARE AN INSTANT THE WHOLE WORLD IS TOLD SOMETHING THAT COULD BE WRONG.

JOURNALISTS NEED TO KNOW THAT THE WORK THEY DO WHEN THEY CAREFULLY WRITE A LEAD, LIKE A NEW YORK TIMES REPORT WOULD, TH AT EVEN WHEN YOU ARE TWEETING OR WORKING IN SOCIAL MEDIA, THAT IS THE SAME STANDARDS AND PRACTICES OF GET IT RIGHT.

AND YOU HAVE TO BRING THAT.

WE WORK WITH A LOT OF JOURNALISTS WHO ARE NEXT-GENERATION JOURNALISTS AND WE WORK WITH JOURNALISTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND WITH REPORT FOR AMERICA.

AND WE ARE REALLY TRYING TO TEACH THAT.

USE SOCIAL MEDIA AS AN EXTENT -- EXTENSION OF YOUR ACTUAL JOURNALISM.

RIGHT NOW WHAT I AM WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT THESE DAYS WE LIVE IN WHAT I WOULD CALL IT WAS -- WHAT I WOULD CALL A POST-TRUTH ERA.

IT MEANS A TIME WHEN EMOTIONS AND IDEOLOGIES SUPERSEDE DISCERNIBLE FACTS.

THAT IS POST-TRUTH, AND THAT IS A HORRIFYING ERA, AND WE ARE IN IT.

AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR FOR HOW WE GOT HERE.

BUT JOURNALISTS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY AND OBLIGATION TO GET IT RIGHT NOW AND TO GET IT BACK TO THE BASICS, TO THE GOOD OLD-FASHIONED JOURNALISM OF GET THERE ON THE GROUND AND DO YOUR BEST TO REPORT WHAT YOU KNOW.

GAUTAM: SO THIS IS THE ISSUE ON WHICH THERE IS PROBABLY MORE PRESSURE, WHERE ESSENTIALLY ANY STATEMENT YOU MAKE WILL GET ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER, OR POSSIBLY BOTH GETTING AFTER YOU WITH EVIDENCE OF BIAS.

I WILL SAY OF ANYTHING I EVER TALK ABOUT, THIS IS THE ONE I AM MOST CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT I SAY, FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON.

HOW DO YOU PERSONALLY DEAL WITH, AND HOW DO YOU TELL REPORTERS TO DO WITH THAT FACT?

THAT ESSENTIALLY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE ENTIRE ORGANIZATIONAL INITIATIVE IS TO GO AFTER YOU?

CHARLIE: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I DON'’T KNOW IF I HAVE ANY ADVICE THAT WILL REALLY HELP.

BUT I DO FEEL THAT SENSE OF CAUTION.

I WOULD ADD, IT IS GOOD CAUTION.

IT IS A COMPLEX PLACE.

IT IS A LONG HISTORY.

HOW YOU UNDERSTAND THE MOMENT WE ARE IN HAS TO BEGIN WITH HOW YOU DEFINE THE HISTORY AND WHERE YOU BEGIN YOUR DEFINITIONS OF THAT HISTORY.

YOU GO BACK TO THE HOLOCAUST, DO YOU GO BACK TO THE VERY EARLY DAYS OF THE ISRAELI STATE IN THE WAY PALESTINIANS WERE PUSHED OUT OF THESE AREAS?

MOST OF THE REFUGEES IN GAZA ARE FROM THE 1948 LINES.

DO YOU GO BACK TO 1967?

OR DO YOU GO BACK TO THE PEACE PROCESS THAT WAS ONCE SO HOPEFUL THAT IT NOW SEEMS TRULY SHATTERED AND IN SHARDS ON THE GROUND OF ALL THE DESTRUCTION THAT HAS HAPPENED IN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, WHICH WE NEED TO BEGIN IN THIS RECENT EPISODE, AND NOW WITH THE HORRIFIC LOSS OF LIFE AND RETALIATORY STRIKES BY ISRAEL.

I THINK BIDEN HAD IT RIGHT.

THIS IS PRESIDENT BIDEN AT HIS VAST -- HIS BEST.

HE IS A VERY EMOTIONAL GUY, HE IS A HEALER, AND HE LIKES TO COMFORT PEOPLE.

AND SEEING HIM SAY VERY CLEARLY WE NEED TO STAND WITH ISRAEL IS THE RIGHT THING.

BEING HIM TURN A CORNER AND SAID WE ALSO NEED TO SEE ISRAEL LIKE OUR BROTHERS, YOU CANNOT LET THE RAGE CONSUME YOUR JUDGMENT.

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN PUT IT REALLY WELL WHEN HE SAID, THIS IS A TIME TO RESOLVE, NOT REVENGE.

AND I THINK WE PLAY A ROLE IN THAT.

I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO BE REALLY QUICK TO SAY NOT ONLY DO WE SUPPORT ISRAEL, WE ALSO SUPPORT THE PEACE PROCESS WHICH THIS COUNTRY DID SO MUCH TO GIVE SHAPE TO, AND TO PULL THE TWO SIDES TOGETHER.

WE NEED TO REMIND THEM BOTH, THAT PEACE PROCESS FEELS A VERY LONG WAY AWAY, BUT THE GOAL HAS TO BE, WE HAVE TO THINK TOWARDS PEACE.

GAUTAM: IT WAS STRIKING TO SEE PRESIDENT BIDEN SAY, WE WERE ENRAGED AFTER 9/11.

DON'’T MAKE MISTAKES.

CHARLIE: THAT WAS INCREDIBLE.

A VERY SELF-EFFACING MOMENT.

GAUTAM: THINK ABOUT THAT.

HE IS TRYING TO PUT THINGS IN A CONTEXT, AND ALSO TRYING TO EMPHASIZE EMPATHY, BUT PUT THINGS IN A CONTEXT SO WE UNDERSTAND, SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF THE MOMENT.

I ALWAYS TOLD MY STUDENTS, THERE IS A CHEAT CODE IN MY CLASS.

IF YOU DON'’T KNOW THE ANSWER YOU CAN ALWAYS SAY, IT DEPENDS ON CONTEXT AND YOU'’LL BE RIGHT.

IN THE MIDDLE EAST EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON CONTEXT.

IN A WORLD OF 30 SECOND SOUNDBITES, HOW DO YOU HELP PUT THINGS INTO CONTEXT THAT GOES BACK 5000 YEARS?

CHARLIE: I HAVE REALLY BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THAT BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH A BREAKING NEWS AND IMMEDIATELY.

WE ARE NOT STOPPING TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE GOT HERE.

AND WE NEED TO FIND FORUMS.

THIS SHOW IS A GREAT ONE.

THIS PLACE, WGBH, RIGHT HERE, PBS, IT IS THE BEST SHOT WE HAVE TO FIND THAT SENSE OF AN ABILITY TO FIND CONTEXT.

I THINK THE NEW YORK TIMES HAS BROUGHT A LOT OF HISTORY FORWARD.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO LEARN ONLINE RIGHT NOW, AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS A VERY COMPLICATED AND LAYERED HISTORY.

BOTH SIDES HAVE SUFFERED GREATLY.

AND IN THIS MOMENT RIGHT NOW, YES, IT BEGINS WITH CONDEMNING AN INCREDIBLY BARBARIC ATTACK BY HAMAS.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO CARE ABOUT THE LOSS OF INNOCENT LIVES AMONG PALESTINIANS THAT ARE UNDERNEATH THIS RUBBLE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE BY THE AIRSTRIKES FROM ISRAEL.

GAUTAM: IF THE CONTEXT IS REALLY THAT IMPORTANT AND YOU NEED DEPTH TO UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES, WHAT IS THE BOOK WOULD TELL OUR ISSUES -- OUR VIEWERS TO RATE?

CHARLIE: BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM, BY OUR FRIEND.

IT'’S PROBABLY THE SINGLE BEST BOOK IN THIS MOMENT TO THINK ABOUT AND GO THROUGH AS YOU LOOK AT THAT.

AND THAT IS, IT STANDS AS A WAY TO UNDERSTAND THE MOMENT.

I THINK SOME OF THE BOOKS ABOUT THE PEACE PROCESS ARE IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE THE EXPANSION OF SETTLEMENTS AND HOW THEY UNDERCUT THE PEACE PROCESS AND CREATED THE DESPAIR IS IMPORTANT.

HAMAS, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, WAS ELECTED IN 2006, I BELIEVE IT IS.

BUT BEFORE THAT, THEY WERE VERY SMALL, THEY WERE ALMOST OUT OF BUSINESS.

THE ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS WERE WORKING TOGETHER UNTIL BIBI NETANYAHU'’S CABINET TRIED TO KILL A POLITICAL OFFICER.

THAT PROPELLED HAMAS INTO A NEW LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT WITH THE COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY IN GAZA.

LAYER UPON LAYER.

I THINK BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM, TOM FRIEDMAN'’S BOOK, TAKES US SO FAR.

BUT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE PEACE PROCESS UNRAVELED.

AND I THINK ACTUALLY THERE IS A SELF-EFFACING MOMENT FOR THE U.S. TO THINK ABOUT, DID WE DO ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE THAT PEACE PROCESS WORKED?

I THINK THE CLEAR ANSWER IN THE MOMENT WE ARE IN HIS NO, WE DID NOT.

GAUTAM: I AM SURE THIS IS NOT THE LAST WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THIS.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.

I AM GAUTAM MUKUNDA, AND THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

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